Episode 1: Love

In this episode of the Fellowship Podcast, we delve into the transformative nature of love as the first fruit of the Spirit. We explore various types of love in Scripture—especially agape, or unconditional love—and discuss how it requires divine intervention. Join us as we navigate the ongoing journey of embodying this profound virtue through the Holy Spirit’s empowerment.

To download the Fruits of the Spirit Devotional, Click Here

Transcript

Stephen:
[0:02] Welcome to Episode 1 of Season 3 of the Fellowship Podcast, where we're digging into the fruit of the Spirit and what it means to walk out in faith in everyday life.

Stephen:
[0:13] We begin with love. Not the kind that you find in Hallmark cards or fleeting emotion, but the kind that redefines you. The kind that costs something. The kind Paul lists first for a reason.

Stephen:
[0:29] Galatians 5 tells us that love is a fruit, not a feeling. And fruit doesn't appear overnight. It's the byproduct of abiding, surrendering, and sometimes even suffering. Jesus said, By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. Not by how much you know, not by how often you go to church, but by love. So the question isn't, do I feel loving? It's, am I bearing love, even when it's hardest to do so? Today we'll explore what that kind of love looks like in action, and why it's the foundation for every other fruit that follows. Welcome to The Fellowship.

Robert:
[1:42] I feel like I should talk like Casey Kasem or something like that.

Stephen:
[1:46] And we're back.

Robert:
[1:47] And we're back. Welcome to episode one. Because technically the last one was zero.

Kat:
[1:55] Yes, episode one.

Robert:
[1:57] Episode one love love yes we are excited to be here again today um, We hope that you had a chance to look at the devotional. You don't have to have gone through the devotional. It's not like mandatory or anything.

Kat:
[2:15] No, unless you wanted to do your homework and be a good student. And then you would download the devotional and do it with us. That sounds like a cat answer.

Robert:
[2:22] It is, yeah.

Stephen:
[2:22] It's such a cat answer.

Kat:
[2:23] It is. It's okay, though.

Robert:
[2:25] I mean, the devotional is, we spend a lot of time on it. And some of the things that we will be talking about, some of the thoughts are embedded in the devotional. We will probably reference some scripture that was also part of the devotional. So it's recommended, but not necessary.

Kat:
[2:46] Not necessary. And here's the thing. We're not going to be going line by line. We have quite, this is a big topic. And I know it's something that Stephen has been itching. He was our author for this devotional,

Kat:
[3:01] and it has been something that he's been itching to talk about.

Stephen:
[3:04] I don't know about itching.

Kat:
[3:06] Yeah, you're positively read with hives about this.

Robert:
[3:09] You don't normally plan for anything, and you have plans.

Kat:
[3:13] That's true.

Robert:
[3:13] That's rare for Steven.

Kat:
[3:15] It is.

Robert:
[3:15] Like, I know you and me are like, hey, dude, let's just wing it, man. But, like, you plan.

Stephen:
[3:20] Yeah, okay, fine.

Robert:
[3:21] You have things written down, which is pretty good.

Stephen:
[3:27] Yeah, it's important to me. I think that everybody comes to the table with a different definition of love. You know, there's no such thing as just saying love and everybody knows what you're talking about because we all experience it differently. But we like to pretend like we know what we're talking about when we join into those conversations. So if I say I love Italian food, that's a completely different kind of love than I love my spouse or I love my girlfriend or I love my family. They're completely different. We understand that when we separate those concepts.

Robert:
[4:05] Do you think the, I don't know, the general public differentiates that same way?

Stephen:
[4:12] I think yes. I think even when people say I love my spouse, I don't know. I think more often than not, what we see in society today is love has a limit. And that's one of the characteristics of love as one of the fruits of the Spirit that I really like to focus on. As a love, as a characteristic of the Spirit, I believe that love is unconditional, everlasting, forever.

Robert:
[4:45] Okay.

Stephen:
[4:46] Because that is, if it's the spirit in us, then there is a supernatural element to it.

Stephen:
[4:53] It isn't like how society or the world would define it, what they're used to.

Kat:
[4:59] So what is a used to definition? Let's start foundational.

Robert:
[5:03] A what?

Kat:
[5:04] What are we used to hearing that love is?

Robert:
[5:06] Well, I think there's like a worldly love. You know, like when I, I don't know, I've been thinking like even as a child, Like, do children tend to be a little bit more narcissistic and they only see themselves? Do children really take the time to recognize the love of a parent, right? It has more to do with provision, perhaps. I mean, I don't know that they recognize it as an agape type love, right? They look of it more as like a provisional.

Stephen:
[5:39] For the sake of the conversation, you mentioned agape, which is Latin for?

Kat:
[5:46] Greek.

Robert:
[5:47] For unconditional love.

Stephen:
[5:49] For an unconditional...

Robert:
[5:51] For an embodied by Christ.

Kat:
[5:54] Yes. So there's four kinds that are defined in the New Testament. Philia, which is the friendship love, the brotherly love. Eros, which is the passionate love. Storji, which is the familial love. And then agape, which is the divine love.

Robert:
[6:14] Right.

Kat:
[6:15] Or Christ-like love.

Stephen:
[6:17] What makes it divine?

Robert:
[6:21] Because that's the example. That's the example. I kind of think of that as that is like the, I don't know, how do I word this? Like the foundational.

Kat:
[6:30] It's the first love. So we love because God first loved us. And the agape love is the first love. Everything else is second love. We practice second love. So we're like, my relationship with you as a friend, as a sister, as my relationship with my husband will always be flawed because I am not Christ. I don't embody perfect love. And a lot of the times what happens is the pain, the resentment, frustration, all of those things that come and are bred from our relationships is all traced back to the second love. It's a reflection of the first. And that's why there's pain. And that's why sometimes relationships bring pain. But the agape love is the first love. It's our example. So we are a broken reflection of that first love. And I think the key here is recognizing, you know, when we're in relationships and we're hurt, we have to realize that people can only love to that capacity.

Robert:
[7:35] So not the first love.

Kat:
[7:36] Not the first love. And it doesn't mean that we can't strive for it.

Robert:
[7:39] So I have to ask a question here then.

Kat:
[7:41] Yes.

Robert:
[7:42] So if that first love... we are now capable of because we have the Holy Spirit in us.

Kat:
[7:50] Certainly.

Robert:
[7:51] Right. So, go ahead, Stephen.

Stephen:
[7:53] I'm still a little unclear by how we're distinguishing between first and second love. Can you kind of help me out with that?

Kat:
[8:03] So, 1 John 4.19, we love because Christ first loved us.

Robert:
[8:09] Okay.

Kat:
[8:10] So, we're humans in our human nature, even though we're made in God's image, In our human, yes, we're humans, Bob. In our human nature, we're flawed, right? We sinned. And sin is now a part of how we process love.

Robert:
[8:28] So are we not capable of agape love before being filled with the Holy Spirit?

Kat:
[8:34] Are we not capable of agape love?

Robert:
[8:36] Of agape love without knowing Christ.

Stephen:
[8:41] The supernatural.

Robert:
[8:42] Right. Because I'm thinking like agape love is a spiritual type of love, right? Are we capable of that.

Stephen:
[8:49] On our own?

Kat:
[8:51] I think it's something that we, it's not something that we bring to the table, to be honest with you. I think that it's something we live in. We participate in that love, right? Christ, God has provided this forum for love, and we participate in it, in this kind of divine web, right, on our earth. And I don't think that we can bring to the table organically the agape love. I think that in our relationship with God, that love is brought in us, and we live in that love.

Robert:
[9:27] Okay.

Kat:
[9:28] Does that make sense?

Robert:
[9:30] Yeah, 100%. Because when I think of the fruits of the Spirit, it is coming from the Spirit, not from anything that...

Kat:
[9:38] Okay, so...

Stephen:
[9:39] Can I...

Kat:
[9:40] Yes, go ahead.

Stephen:
[9:41] John 15, 4. I'm going to read just actually several verses because this kind of ties into what both of you guys are saying. Remain in me and I in you, just as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, but must remain in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. So there's that spiritual only through the spirit aspect. I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who remains in me and I in him bears much fruit. For apart from me, you can do nothing. So this kind of love is not of our own accord, of our own strength.

Kat:
[10:22] We can enter it and we can participate in it, but it does not generate from us. I think once sin entered the world, there was a shattered reflection of that first love. And so we're, we're, but we're solved, right? That, that mirror has been put together and we, we live in that first love and

Kat:
[10:47] we, we get to participate in it. And sometimes we have the opportunity to share that first love with others. And sometimes we fail miserably and all people get is that second broken love. And doesn't mean that we're not trying.

Robert:
[11:01] Well, when we're saying second love, and I'm assuming that when we're referring to second love, we're also putting Eros love, Philea love.

Kat:
[11:13] All that aside.

Robert:
[11:14] Yeah. That's aside. But that's all second.

Kat:
[11:16] That's all second love.

Robert:
[11:16] Right. But those things aren't bad.

Kat:
[11:20] No. And I'm not saying that second love is bad.

Robert:
[11:23] Okay. Right.

Kat:
[11:23] Second love is bad. It's just not perfect. It's not perfect love.

Robert:
[11:27] We need all of this.

Kat:
[11:28] We need all of it.

Robert:
[11:29] Right.

Kat:
[11:29] And so no matter how much I try, I can never love you to the point that Christ does. I can always strive for that, but it will never be perfect because I'm not perfect.

Robert:
[11:43] Well, I mean, can it? And what's your quote? Greater love.

Stephen:
[11:52] Greater love has no one than this, that he would lay down his life for his friends. Right.

Robert:
[11:57] And we're basing that on the fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross for us. And he now calls, well, he called them friends. I don't know that he's saying we would call us friends, but.

Stephen:
[12:08] And laying his life down for sinners, for those who, even those who hated him.

Robert:
[12:16] Right.

Stephen:
[12:17] Greater love has no one than, I think it's that is what's implied.

Robert:
[12:21] Okay.

Stephen:
[12:23] That even the people that we're at odds with, we give ourselves up for.

Robert:
[12:31] So you're saying it just goes beyond me laying down my life for you. it's laying down my life for my enemies as well.

Stephen:
[12:38] Well, here's what's interesting. Peter was one of the disciples. Just before Jesus died, Peter denied ever knowing Jesus three times. What friend would deny ever knowing you, disown you at your lowest point?

Kat:
[12:55] And here's the thing, though. If you ask me if Peter loved Jesus, I would say absolutely.

Stephen:
[13:00] Yeah, absolutely.

Kat:
[13:01] But he's loving from the second love.

Stephen:
[13:03] He's broken.

Kat:
[13:04] He's broken. Yes.

Stephen:
[13:05] And Jesus, in response to Peter's broken love, loved him unconditionally.

Kat:
[13:11] Yeah.

Stephen:
[13:12] Loved him saying, even though you betrayed me three times.

Kat:
[13:16] Yes.

Stephen:
[13:16] Even though you said nothing when I was being delivered to die a very cruel death, even though you weren't there. I still love you.

Kat:
[13:27] Yes.

Stephen:
[13:29] That's the profound love I believe is a result of the spirit.

Kat:
[13:34] Yes.

Stephen:
[13:35] Because how many of us today, without some kind of divine intervention, could say to somebody who betrays us, but I still love you.

Robert:
[13:45] I love you like that.

Stephen:
[13:46] I love you like that.

Robert:
[13:47] Yeah.

Stephen:
[13:47] And I'll love you like that if you do it three more times.

Robert:
[13:50] I still love you. I think that's the scary part is that I think in theory, we want to believe that. Yes, we would. Peter believed that he would. Oh, he was absolutely convinced until stuff went down. And all of a sudden you're like, oh, uh, the guns against my head. And I tripped up a little bit and, you know, just kind of falls apart, you know, but I mean, and what's, what's great about it is God's grace.

Kat:
[14:17] Why do you think forgiveness is needed here on earth? Why do you think that Jesus said, forgive, 77 times, 7 times? Why do you think?

Stephen:
[14:28] Or how he taught us to pray. Our Father in heaven, holy be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today your daily bread. And forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Kat:
[14:46] Forgiveness isn't needed here. or forgiveness, I'm sorry, forgiveness is needed here because we do not love perfectly as Jesus did. And so forgiveness is needed here on earth.

Stephen:
[14:58] Forgiveness is needed here because it is a reflection of the forgiveness he has extended to us.

Kat:
[15:04] Yes.

Stephen:
[15:04] And if we withhold forgiveness from others, how much more will he withhold forgiveness from us?

Kat:
[15:13] And, you know, here's the thing too. You talk a little bit in the devotional about, I love this line that you wrote, it's not reserved for those easy to love. Love is not reserved for those easy to love.

Kat:
[15:30] He didn't give from his abundance, his extra, his easy. I love that. Because when we love, it is not an easy thing. And sometimes people hurt us in this life. Like They will eviscerate our souls. And to know that it's coming from the second love liberates us a little bit to have that forgiving heart, knowing that you're not going to come to me perfect. You might hurt me. I might enter in a state of abandonment, resentment. I'm not saying it like it's okay to be maltreated. I'm not saying that. But in understanding that you're coming from the limitations of the second love, I can provide my forgiveness in that.

Robert:
[16:22] I think being able to respond in that and to be able to forgive is challenging.

Kat:
[16:29] It is.

Robert:
[16:30] It can be really challenging, especially when we have other competing loves. Right.

Stephen:
[16:39] Dig into that one.

Kat:
[16:40] The competing loves?

Robert:
[16:42] I mean, I guess like other competing loves. Like, I mean, and I was thinking about going the way of the other loves that we define. But I mean, we're selfish. We love ourselves.

Stephen:
[16:54] Yeah.

Robert:
[16:55] It's all about self-preservation. Self-preservation.

Stephen:
[16:59] That's what nature teaches us.

Robert:
[17:01] Well, I mean, that's what society teaches us.

Stephen:
[17:03] Uh-huh.

Robert:
[17:03] And I think that's the dangerous part is that it's all about our satisfaction. satisfaction i mean in my youth the only love i knew was the the eros love.

Kat:
[17:15] And was it ever fulfilling.

Robert:
[17:17] For two minutes.

Kat:
[17:18] Long term bob long term was it ever no did it did it feed your soul did it no right it.

Robert:
[17:27] Left you hungry right.

Kat:
[17:28] Yes right and i think that we're always gonna look for some degree to something that we've already found familiar something familiar so we know god's love we were made in it we were made in his image we know the memory of that first love and so we're always going to seek it and we're going to seek it in different ways right we're going to seek it through eros and through sturgy and you know we're going to seek it through romanticism and friends and, you know, partying and belonging.

Robert:
[18:00] Right.

Kat:
[18:01] But the problem is, is that we're really looking for that first love.

Robert:
[18:06] Right.

Stephen:
[18:07] That first love encapsulates all the others.

Kat:
[18:11] Yes.

Stephen:
[18:12] Without it, all of those other loves are temporary and short-lived.

Robert:
[18:19] They don't satisfy.

Stephen:
[18:20] No. They satisfy momentarily.

Robert:
[18:23] Right.

Stephen:
[18:23] But when we finally experience the kind of love that he has for us, or even taste it, All of those other things that we've chased.

Robert:
[18:37] Fakes. Yeah.

Stephen:
[18:39] They just dissipate into nothingness.

Robert:
[18:43] Counterfeits.

Stephen:
[18:43] The kind of love that he has is the real deal. And I think a lot of people can relate to that craving for that kind of love that's the real thing. I want that kind of love. So many songs on the radio talk about the kind of love we're constantly striving for, what we can never really get,

Stephen:
[19:03] attain to, reach, hold on to forever.

Kat:
[19:06] I think it's that divine love that we're constantly searching for. And I think that sometimes we get there. We recognize it in our life. When we call Jesus into our heart and we recognize that in our life, we say, okay, you know, I'm in his, I'm participating in this divine love. But sometimes we're unable to fully absorb it. And so we're constantly seeking still.

Stephen:
[19:34] And I think that that pursuit of that divine love is why it hurts so bad when we try to find it in people.

Kat:
[19:42] Oh, yes.

Stephen:
[19:43] Because we're seeking a divine in a mundane. We're seeking a eternal love in something that was that is faulty. We're looking towards the wrong source because we in our fleshly broken vessels cannot and do not produce that kind of a God. That is not natural to us. It is counter to our desires, that fleshly desire where we put ourselves first. It goes completely against that thought.

Robert:
[20:16] So you can't get agape love from somebody else.

Stephen:
[20:21] Say it again.

Robert:
[20:22] You can't get agape love from somebody else? Because it seems to be that's what you're implying.

Stephen:
[20:27] I think that you can't obtain it from somebody else. You can experience it, but you can't obtain it in a way that it comes from within you.

Robert:
[20:41] Well, that's the Holy Spirit. But I mean, like, you know, I would hope that in our relationship, I'm able to show you agape love and that you're able to receive that.

Stephen:
[20:52] But does my tree produce it? I might participate of the fruit of your tree. You're producing that good fruit of the agape love, of the spirit in you that is causing you to love, even those who everybody else would say they're unlovable. Right. You have that ability that not from your own ability, but from the spirit in you. But that just because you have it and I can witness that doesn't mean that I have that ability just because I've witnessed it. I just see somebody who's stronger. I just see somebody who can lift more than I can. Just because I can see you doing that doesn't mean that I can do the same thing.

Robert:
[21:33] No, but you can receive that.

Stephen:
[21:36] I can receive, yeah.

Robert:
[21:38] From me.

Kat:
[21:39] Yes.

Robert:
[21:39] Right.

Kat:
[21:40] Yes. And I think that when we're living in agape, when we're participating in it, we can give it to each other for sure. And we're calling on the example of God to give to somebody else in that divine Christ-like love.

Stephen:
[21:58] It's interesting that even Jesus didn't say, greater love has no one than this, that he would give up his son. He didn't mention God's love so much that he would give his only begotten son. He didn't mention John 3.16.

Robert:
[22:14] Right.

Stephen:
[22:14] He said, greater love has no one less that they would give up their own life for their friends, not somebody else in their stead. But that's the highest supreme form of love. And that's what Jesus showed the world. It's like, despite what you will do to me and say about me, despite you not being there when I needed you, I'm still going to love you.

Kat:
[22:42] You said something in the devotional, love is not reactive, but proactive. What did you mean about that?

Stephen:
[22:55] See, I see that being the difference between spirit-filled love and flesh-filled love. When it's proactive, it looks for opportunities to serve. It looks for opportunities to protect, to guard, to cherish. But the flesh looks for opportunities to be fulfilled, to be cherished, to be held.

Kat:
[23:23] And maybe to react to the darkness of the world.

Stephen:
[23:26] Perhaps.

Kat:
[23:26] We're constantly trying to react and fill in those holes that the world gives us, right?

Stephen:
[23:31] Right. I think it can be difficult to love proactively, meaning I'm choosing to do it no matter what happens.

Robert:
[23:44] That goes against every fleshly desire.

Stephen:
[23:47] Right. And I think the more we run into the fleshly desires as,

Stephen:
[23:51] oh, I don't like that, or that's not comfortable, or I don't feel like that. Or what about when we try to make excuses against loving unconditionally, then we know the spirit and the flesh are at war.

Robert:
[24:04] Right. I feel like it becomes easier. I mean, it's a muscle. The more you work it, the healthier it becomes and the easier it becomes to manifest that.

Stephen:
[24:16] Yes. Do you think Can we bear that fruit Without the seed of truth, So we know that the fruit of the spirit, right?

Robert:
[24:32] Right.

Stephen:
[24:32] The spirit in us. Right. The fruit is not something we do. It's not something we produce.

Robert:
[24:39] Right.

Stephen:
[24:40] Meaning of our own, like, hey, I'm going to bear three fruit today.

Robert:
[24:43] So I think we can bear it. I don't think we understand it as agape love. I don't think we understand it as a Christ-like love. Because you can have people out there that know nothing of faith, but love their child in such a way that mirrors that.

Kat:
[25:06] Yes. I think that we can never control or set boundaries for the limits of the spirit and the limit of God. We cannot put him in a box and say, he is limited to this church, this place, these people that are practicing this religion. We cannot put that in a box.

Robert:
[25:23] Right.

Kat:
[25:24] We need to know that God is a lot bigger than our preconceived notions, and agape love can exist through people. A lot of different people can participate in agape love.

Stephen:
[25:38] Yeah.

Kat:
[25:39] It's funny because you mentioned it being proactive, and in John 15, it's kind of like the cornerstone.

Stephen:
[25:49] Yep.

Kat:
[25:50] As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands, and remain in his love. And then he keeps on going. He's like, my command is this, love each other as I have loved you. Greater love is this, to lay down one's life for one's friends. And then he keeps going. Jesus repeats himself like four times here. We're like, did he lose his mind? What's going on? And it's funny. I think it's because love is not a one-time thing. The whole process is not a one-time thing. He knows that we're going to have to make that choice every single moment. And so he sets this reminder in this that love your neighbor, love God, love your neighbor, love your friends.

Stephen:
[26:38] Oh, remember, love God.

Kat:
[26:39] Yeah, remember, love God, love your neighbor.

Stephen:
[26:42] And you love God by loving each other.

Kat:
[26:44] Yes.

Robert:
[26:45] Repetition is kind of important.

Stephen:
[26:46] Kind of important.

Kat:
[26:47] It is.

Stephen:
[26:47] Yeah.

Kat:
[26:48] And it's...

Stephen:
[26:49] 1 Corinthians. So this is Paul. This is Paul's take on love. And I like saying this is Paul's take because we're all learning how to apply agape love to our lives. And Paul, the Apostle Paul, was absolutely brilliant. A little bit of a background. He grew up in the school of Pharisees. So there's the Sadducees and the Pharisees, two schools of religious thought, and the Pharisees were very much, very rigid in their beliefs. Well, Paul grew up and became a Pharisee of Pharisees, he would call himself. Like, if there's anybody more rigid in his interpretation, it's, I'm the most.

Robert:
[27:31] Right.

Stephen:
[27:31] So when he defines something of more of a softer skill, I really love this.

Robert:
[27:38] Well, what's interesting is this is after he wasn't that anymore.

Stephen:
[27:43] So here's how Paul defines it. Love is patient. Love is kind. Like, okay, that's great. Yeah.

Kat:
[27:55] Yeah, I can get behind that.

Stephen:
[27:57] It's not jealous. Oh.

Kat:
[28:01] You're like, check, check, slash.

Stephen:
[28:04] Question mark.

Robert:
[28:05] Come back to that one.

Stephen:
[28:06] Love does not brag.

Kat:
[28:08] Oh, gosh.

Stephen:
[28:09] Oh, gosh.

Kat:
[28:09] X.

Stephen:
[28:10] Love is not arrogant. Oh, gosh. It does not act disgracefully. It does not seek its own benefit. It is not provoked. Oh, gosh. Does not keep an account of a wrong suffered.

Kat:
[28:27] Oh, that's a hard one. That's a hard one for us. That's a really hard one for us. That's how we know that we do not produce agape love on our own.

Stephen:
[28:37] It does not rejoice in unrighteousness. Now, I keep on going back to that. What does it mean to rejoice in unrighteousness?

Robert:
[28:45] Injustice.

Stephen:
[28:46] Yeah.

Robert:
[28:47] If you look at different versions of it, like mine says, it doesn't rejoice about injustice, but rejoices whenever the truth wins out.

Stephen:
[28:54] Or when somebody falls. I'm not going to say, ha, I told you so.

Robert:
[29:00] Right.

Stephen:
[29:03] But it rejoices. See, it does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but it rejoices with the truth. It keeps every confidence. It believes all things. It hopes all things And it endures all things Love never fails It is eternal It's forever, So there's never an alternative That's where I get the idea That love is unconditional Because if it never fails It means that there's no condition There's no situation Where it would fail, Love is always in every situation Always, that sounds like eternal to me and unconditional, yes but if there are gifts of prophecy yada yada yada if there are tongues they will see if there's knowledge it'll be done away with and it just says at the end of everything love and.

Kat:
[30:02] Here's the thing about Paul is I do not think that he was coming from a high horse here because he he was, I mean, he, um, was against Christianity. It was against the start of the first church, and he was part of the group that stoned, wasn't it, Stephen? The Apostle Stephen?

Stephen:
[30:26] That is, not me, but yes.

Kat:
[30:28] Not you, but the Apostle Stephen. So, Paul was not coming from a place of superiority here. I think that he was saying, these are all the things that I've lacked in my life. This is what God's true love is.

Robert:
[30:44] He's recognizing it now.

Stephen:
[30:46] So a little tidbit there. Paul thought he was doing right by killing those who he was persecuting. One of the things that makes him a devout Pharisee was that he thought he was getting rid of false prophets because the penalty for being a false prophet was to be stoned to death. So in his mind, he was enacting the Torah, the law, that pertains to false prophets, especially those who would claim to be God.

Stephen:
[31:24] Well, his understanding of the word versus what actually was demonstrated that he needed to broaden his perspective a bit. He needed more divine revelation And that the way he had been taught And.

Robert:
[31:42] It happened on the road to Emmaus.

Stephen:
[31:44] Yep So the way he had been taught wasn't the full picture He was right, In that false prophets need to be Stoned to death Right That was correct But he was wrong in assuming that Jesus was a false prophet, Right And he was wrong to assume that all of his followers Were false prophets, and that's i think that when he encountered jesus on the road to emmaus jesus was like what are you thinking oh oh oh my bad right.

Kat:
[32:15] How how is love so i'm gonna shift gears for us a little bit um.

Stephen:
[32:22] Hard right hard.

Kat:
[32:23] Right how is love manifested and we talked a little bit about the second love and about how we show love in our relationships, but how is agape love manifested in our lives and in our relationships? Where do we see that?

Robert:
[32:40] I think it's sacrificial. When I think of my relationship, it's a laying down of my wants and needs and desires and putting my family first. Yeah.

Stephen:
[32:57] In the heart, in the uncomfortable, in the I don't want to, or I don't, I deserve more, or they don't deserve it.

Robert:
[33:07] Right.

Stephen:
[33:07] In the seeking of justice. It puts that aside, too.

Robert:
[33:13] Right. I deserve.

Stephen:
[33:14] It's like, even if you deserve it.

Robert:
[33:18] Tough cookies. Put it aside.

Stephen:
[33:22] Yeah. It doesn't seek its own. Even if we're justified. Even if we feel we are justified in whatever the situation is. If we've been offended or hurt, then even if we feel like a righteous response would be to do anything other than to love, we're still called to love.

Robert:
[33:45] It always reminds me of like when people like get married and like, oh, it's marriage is a 50-50 thing. It's like, no, bro, I don't know any, I don't know when it ever was that, right? Like it's always a 100% thing and everybody should be giving 100% all the time. Right. And it's like, even when it's hard, even when you don't want to, you're still giving it.

Stephen:
[34:10] Right.

Robert:
[34:11] You know, I don't want to do the dishes. It's your turn. Keeps no record of wrong. Right. Like you have to like start putting like, okay, this, this doesn't work here.

Kat:
[34:21] I think it's, it's important to, I think we should always give our partner, 100 of our commitment to the marriage.

Robert:
[34:32] Yes right but.

Kat:
[34:34] Sometimes the energy that we bring it waivers like you had a rough week you can give 40 this week but you gave 100.

Robert:
[34:46] Of that 40.

Kat:
[34:47] Right so you you gave 100 of your 40 you could you said i this week i've got 40 and so i need you to show up with 60 and that's fair and i i show up with 60 and i give 100 of that 60 next week i have a big week and then it i'm like i can give you 30 this week right and you give me 70 and so it we show up 100 for our commitment to the marriage or commitment to the friendship or commitment to you know the relationship whatever kind of relationship but we have to realize the ebbs and flows of what we can give as well, because if not, we enter in resentment, which is completely contrary to that.

Robert:
[35:29] I like your use of the word ebbs and flows, because I feel like sometimes we forget, right? And it requires that, wait a second, I'm recognizing something here. Okay. Now I know I have to do this. I have to step in in this way, right? And it's just, it's kind of like when we think of like the mountaintop experiences in the valleys, It's like you only know the high because you've seen the low and vice versa. Right. We need to be aware of, okay, I recognize that I'm failing in this one way.

Stephen:
[36:01] Can I play angel advocate?

Kat:
[36:04] Sure.

Robert:
[36:05] Yeah.

Stephen:
[36:07] You're mentioning the percentages. You know, I only have 30 to give, and that means that I would hope that they would come in with 70. And if they don't, then what?

Kat:
[36:19] So what do you mean?

Stephen:
[36:21] If we're gauging the energy that we have to contribute to the relationship.

Robert:
[36:29] You still give.

Stephen:
[36:30] You still give.

Robert:
[36:31] Yeah, I think that's the point.

Kat:
[36:32] But it's not just energy, too.

Stephen:
[36:34] If you don't, if you are giving that 30 and the other is not giving that remaining 70, how should we treat them?

Robert:
[36:45] With love.

Stephen:
[36:46] Right.

Robert:
[36:46] It doesn't stop.

Kat:
[36:48] It doesn't stop.

Stephen:
[36:49] It never ends.

Robert:
[36:50] And I think there's a bitterness that might come to be in that relationship. And I recommend addressing that, right? But you still love. You don't abandon, you don't give up and say, bro, what the heck, man? Why am I the only one working on this?

Stephen:
[37:11] So it is unconditional. It's not, I will love as long as you give that 70 or as long as you give that 50%.

Robert:
[37:18] Oh, yeah.

Stephen:
[37:19] Love is completely independent of the effort.

Robert:
[37:27] Yeah.

Kat:
[37:28] I think we also have to understand that.

Stephen:
[37:31] Or lack thereof.

Kat:
[37:32] That people are also coming from second love love. And if you don't show up with what you have to give, I need to understand that there's a lot of things underneath the surface that are moving, processing, pains, hurts, memories, this, that. There's a lot that I don't see. And so I need to recognize that all that is going on inside of you. And you're not able to give me first perfect love. You're able to give me your broken love. And I have to say, that's okay. I still love you. And I would hope that when I bring to you my brokenness, you still love me too. And so we can show and manifest the first love even through our brokenness.

Stephen:
[38:17] So again, are we looking to each other for that first love?

Kat:
[38:21] No.

Stephen:
[38:22] We shouldn't ever.

Kat:
[38:23] No. No.

Stephen:
[38:24] Because we will constantly, repeatedly fail and be let down.

Stephen:
[38:31] So we have to find that first love with the one who showed us that first love.

Kat:
[38:35] Yes.

Stephen:
[38:35] And only through him will we find that continual, everlasting first love.

Kat:
[38:42] We are the beloved of God. And when we look in somebody else's eyes, we need to say, they are also the beloved of God.

Stephen:
[38:51] I can see that light.

Kat:
[38:52] I can see, even though you're coming to me with darkness or brokenness, and I think that this is where love your neighbor as yourself. When your enemies persecute you, when they hate you, love them anyway.

Robert:
[39:09] Yeah, we were talking about this in the car over here, and I said, I always had an issue. I'm glad that Jesus further clarified that, and he said, love as I have loved. Because I think a lot of people don't love themselves. They don't know how. And I think that that brings a lot of problems to the table.

Stephen:
[39:29] And I have to kind of go back On something I said In that conversation I initially said We have to learn how to love ourselves In order to love others I don't think I believe that actually.

Robert:
[39:45] Remember that song I was singing to you? To find someone you love, you gotta be someone you love. And I think that that plays into it.

Stephen:
[39:57] If we don't know how to love ourselves, and we're called to love, maybe we should look to the source of where that is defined.

Robert:
[40:07] What does that look like?

Stephen:
[40:08] What does that look like?

Robert:
[40:08] Right.

Stephen:
[40:09] Look at the Bible. It is full. Look at the New Testament. And it is full of examples of the perfect kind of love that is expected in those who call themselves his.

Robert:
[40:20] Right.

Kat:
[40:20] I have a tale. Do you guys want to hear it?

Robert:
[40:23] Yes.

Stephen:
[40:24] Yes.

Kat:
[40:25] It's from the Talmud.

Robert:
[40:27] Okay.

Kat:
[40:28] And it's called The Fugitive and the Rabbi. And how it goes is there's a fugitive that enters a town and he's on the run. And the town harbors him. and the soldiers come to the town and they say, you need to give up the fugitive or else we're going to put you all to death. And they, you know, they go to the town rabbi and they say, rabbi, what do we do? And he says, I need to go think about it. So he goes and he reads and he, you know, prays and he, you know, just kind of sits in isolation and silence.

Kat:
[41:05] and he he opens the bible and it says um it's better to lose one than to lose a whole city right and so he goes back to the soldiers and he tells them where the fugitive is living the town um the town comes together and they're having a.

Kat:
[41:42] Okay, so the town comes together, and after the fugitive is being led away by the soldiers, there's a feast in the village because the rabbi had saved the lives of the people. But the rabbi didn't celebrate. He was overcome with sadness. He remained in his room because he had to give the fugitive away. An angel came to him and said, What have you done? And he said, I handed over the fugitive to the enemy. And the angel said, But don't you know that you've handed over the Messiah? and he said how could i know that it was the messiah and the angel said if instead of you staying in your room and reading the bible you had visited visited this young man once and looked into his eyes you would have known you would have seen the face of god.

Kat:
[42:26] And this hit me when i first read it because how often do we not look into the eyes of people we encounter and see god and see that those people are the beloved of god those people are have his spirit and knowing that people are the beloved of god would prevent us from handing them over to the enemy or disregarding them or judging them and this this story was i mean you can take it several different ways right we can almost it's funny that it was talmudic and it's bringing up the messiah and almost prophesying everything that happened to christ but it's also a model for us when people are other people are stranger people are different people do wrong right how do we do we never look them in the eye and actually see who they are.

Stephen:
[43:23] As soon as you described that it was a Talmudic parable, if you will, it brought me to thinking about, what did Jesus say? What was his parable? And immediately, okay, so here's what he says in Luke 15. Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near him to listen to him. Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, this man receives sinners and he eats with them. Like, why doesn't he eat with us?

Kat:
[43:56] Yeah.

Stephen:
[43:57] The quote-unquote holy.

Kat:
[43:58] Exactly.

Stephen:
[44:00] So he told them, Jesus told them a parable saying, What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep, which was lost. I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. It's interesting that it almost goes contrary to the Talmudic parable, where the rabbi...

Kat:
[44:48] Saves everyone.

Stephen:
[44:49] Saves the 99 at the expense of the one. And Jesus is like, no, I'm coming for the one. I'm coming for them all. They're all important.

Kat:
[45:02] Absolutely.

Stephen:
[45:03] I'm not leaving behind anybody.

Kat:
[45:05] And that's essentially what the angel said. Like, you gave up the Messiah. You gave up God, essentially. Yeah.

Stephen:
[45:14] Yeah. It goes contrary to what our heart and flesh desire. We want to be protected. We want to be okay. But if that means somebody else is not okay, and we are, we're putting ourselves first. if we are truly going to love with the kind of love that is agape it means that we're going to suffer, it means it's going to be hard it means we're not going to be comfortable and it means that we will see people who are going to flourish because of our sacrifice, in a way if we run into that kind of love those opportunities we're going to be challenged with With wanting to resent, why do they have it so easy? Why do they have what I want? Why can't somebody show me agape love? Why can't I be the one that somebody sacrifices for?

Kat:
[46:18] And how often do we judge people based on their life choices?

Robert:
[46:23] Right?

Kat:
[46:23] How often do we do that?

Stephen:
[46:25] On today's episode of Rhetorical Questions.

Robert:
[46:27] Guilty, guilty, guilty.

Kat:
[46:29] We're all guilty of it. And I think one of my wishes, one of my prayers is that God works in me so that I'm able to show that first love, be a vessel of that first love more, and to understand what it means to love others through that lens. And that's a desire of my heart. I mean, when we were writing the prayers, I said, I would love, teach me to love beyond the fragility of the second love.

Stephen:
[47:03] Yeah. So for the sake of application practicality, you know, how do we, how do we, even though we can't necessarily grow our own fruit,

Stephen:
[47:15] I'm really big on the tree can't bear its own fruit. It either has what it needs. It's either being sustained by something outside of the tree. Yeah, Bob gets bothered by this. We get into semantic babbles here.

Robert:
[47:30] Yes, I feel like God has given us the ability to read his word and arm ourselves and prepare ourselves and practice these things. To sit there and say, I ain't doing nothing. The Holy Spirit's going to have to do it in me because I sure can't.

Stephen:
[47:46] Well, you just said, I believe God has given me the ability.

Robert:
[47:50] Right. So we have to pursue it, right? We have to identify what it is, and then we have to apply it in our own lives.

Stephen:
[48:00] Okay. Yes. I would agree with that.

Robert:
[48:02] Right. We are part of it. We have to be doing something.

Stephen:
[48:07] If you love me, keep my commandments.

Robert:
[48:10] Right.

Stephen:
[48:11] So 1 Corinthians 13 talks about what love is.

Robert:
[48:15] Right.

Stephen:
[48:15] So if we are to love in the agape love, if we struggle with that, look to 1 Corinthians 13 and take any one of those attributes.

Robert:
[48:26] Practice it.

Stephen:
[48:27] And just practice it. And the Spirit will present opportunities. The Spirit will not just insert the ability and say, okay, now you can do this. know that the Spirit, God will put us through situations to train us. to perfection. And so 1 Corinthians talks us a whole list of what love is and what it isn't. Well, it's patience. If you struggle with patience, then God has given you opportunities to practice patience.

Robert:
[49:03] I always found it funny to say, don't ask God for patience because he's going to give you the opportunity to learn patience.

Stephen:
[49:10] So if your patience is tested.

Robert:
[49:14] Right.

Stephen:
[49:14] It's an opportunity to practice it.

Robert:
[49:16] Right.

Stephen:
[49:18] If any of these things are tested, well, consider that a gift. That God has given you the ability to practice it, and He is refining you for His glory.

Robert:
[49:30] And it's going to be ongoing, right? I mean, you can't expect change overnight, right? And it's going to be a practice, and you're going to have to keep doing it and doing it, and you're going to fail, and you're going to try again. And it's okay. And it's going to get better.

Stephen:
[49:44] It will get better.

Robert:
[49:45] It will get better.

Kat:
[49:46] We strengthen that second love by keeping our eyes on the first.

Stephen:
[49:51] Philippians 4.13, I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. And if we look to Him for our strength, not inward toward our own self, if we look toward Him for our strength, He will show up. And He will show up finally. and He'll sustain us even through those most difficult trials, those difficult people to love, because we know that He loved us first.

Kat:
[50:21] Thanks so much for joining us today as we discussed love. It's wonderful to be back in community with each other and with all of you. This season, we are encouraging everyone to be a part of the study, so make sure you get that devotional downloaded from our website, thefellowshippodcast.com. If you have any questions regarding the devotional, please email us at questions at thefellowshippodcast.com. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram. We are so glad that you tuned in today. Make sure you mark your calendars for the release of episode two on Sunday, August 17. We hope you join us next time on The Fellowship.