Ep. 04 - Radical Self Care with Leonore Tjia

[00:00:00] In this episode we talk with Leon Artesia. Leonor has her master's in counseling, psychology, has studied family systems therapy, as well as international relations, women's history and critical theory. She worked at the United Nations in an NGO for women's rights issues before shifting her work exclusively with individuals, as she realized that that was the nexus where feeling happens.

[00:00:26] Our conversation is totally energized by her radical healing work from the roots of sexuality, life force, and intimacy. Her work, and I know it well, I've been working with Leonor for almost seven years, helps us move past persistent unworthiness and body hostility. She shares her thoughts on self-love and how it takes us to the root of dise.

[00:00:52] To find our own sense of authenticity and awaken our very own life force. May this podcast be a catalyst for you to become the better version of you just bursting to step forward.

[00:01:05] Interview with Leonore Tija: so welcome Leor. Yay. How are you? Beautiful. I'm great. Thanks so much for having me. I am so excited to introduce you to this community. I have known Leor for about three years. We met through a program called Sexual empowerment where she was co-teaching and I was so taken with her calm demeanor and her breadth of knowledge.

[00:02:11] Is there anything that you wanna add about who you are, what you do, and who you serve? Oh, sure. Well firstly, thank you so much for having me.

[00:02:20] It's so fun to get to talk. I always love. The magic we make together. Yeah. I guess a little bit about my background is I started actually like studying international relations, women's history, critical theory, and really started studying about power in that sense. And. After that I worked at the United Nations at an NGO for, for women's rights issues, and then I made this shift into working in sexuality and doing adult sexuality education specifically for women, really with this like embodied feminist perspective.

[00:02:51] So I kind of went from, The big societal into the individual, cuz I saw that like that's really where the nexus of healing happens. And since then I've studied and trained in many different modalities, like internal family systems therapy currently getting a master's in counseling psychology.

[00:03:06] But my heart definitely belongs to this kind of radical healing work. And yeah, I have a practice now working with individuals and couples around all kinds of issues, but always staying really connected to sexuality life force. Intimacy and wildness. Ugh. I love, I love your words also. You're a beautiful writer and I have had the privilege of working with you one-on-one, and it is definitely life-changing.

[00:03:35] You use the word radical. I love that. In fact, on your website, you use you talk about radical self-care or self-care, self-love as a radical act. Why radical? Well, I mean, I think looking at radical, the origins of the words, even though now mostly we use it to mean extreme, the origin of the word radical really means going down to the roots, to the root system.

[00:04:01] And so when I talk about self-care as a radical act, I mean, I'm always. Aware that, you know, we come into ourselves in a very alienating social context and we're taught to be valuable for not who we are, but what we can do. And all of us are living in capitalism, which trains us to equate goodness with our productivity.

[00:04:21] But it's also a trap because there's never enough and the work is never done. So I, most people that I work with have this experience of just kind of being in a treadmill of their own lives. And on the surface it might not be clear how that is actually really connected to sexuality. But so much of our life force, our presence, our acceptance of ourselves, our ability to have intimacy with ourselves, to feel like we're enough, you know, to have intimacy in our relationships is really eroded by that.

[00:04:52] And most women I work most people I work with are, are women. And live with all this, you know, very sexist conditioning of like persistent unworthiness and body hostility. And but I work with men too who have a lot of their own training to feel unworthy and inadequate. So I'm always looking at the gendered components of that as well.

[00:05:11] And I just really wanna say that these things aren't just personal, they're. I mean, they're, they are personal, but they're not only individual. They're passed on intergenerationally too. So I think self-love is radical because. This work really means being willing to go inside and face these places of emptiness and inadequacy and disconnection, and that really takes courage, It takes a lot of courage to get underneath the sense of normal life that we have that is set up to obscure that.

[00:05:44] And make us feel like the status quo should be enough. But self-love really is radical and that it takes us down into the roots of these inherited traumas, really. And then it brings us also to find the sense of authenticity, belonging, you know, and being that we can be divorced from that, that is not ever destroyed,

[00:06:04] you know? Self-love is something. I mean, I've always heard you can't love others until you love yourself. You know, there's always been this, a little bit of this cliche about what love is. You know, this romantic chocolate and, hearts everywhere and love is there.

[00:06:24] Barbara Frederickson has this book called Love 2.0 where she really. Takes the love from being this untouchable thing to a very inherent necessary human right. And It really does start with self-love and to get there. I love that you used the word rewild to get there.

[00:06:50] I think one of your avenues of getting there is to awaken or rewild your life force. Mm-hmm. What will rewilding yourself actually, how, how does that, how do you see that as the inroad to self-love? Hmm. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think Rewilding, to borrow a phrase from Christian Pels is about shedding unwanted domestication and shame. Mm-hmm. So that is first the whole process of becoming aware of how I have been domesticated, how I've been shamed into, you know, all these things. Feeling like I have to work constantly and then I'm only a good person if I'm martyring myself taking care of other people or achieving this certain kind of success.

[00:07:36] And that in itself is a. Very pervasive experience for a lot of people. So one, I think it's about becoming aware of how we've kind of put the bridal on, you know, and seeing how much of our lives, our life energy goes into that, how we are trained to make choices that take us further away from who we really are.

[00:07:56] Hmm. and then, you know, rewilding it. As, as much as we, we become aware of these sources of domestication, we get, we have permission, we, we encounter permission to kind of just be more of who we are to get back in touch with what brings us joy, and also to begin to have relationships where we can be seen and valued and accepted for who we really are.

[00:08:19] And all of that is a process of getting more in touch with what is inside. And then having that come out and be visible in our, in our lives too. So I think, you know, rewilding brings. Out the energy then to have creativity and possibility and play, you know, to not just be in the treadmill, the trance of maintaining the status quo of my life, but to actually get in touch with what are my desires?

[00:08:48] What do I want for my life? What do I want for my family's life? What do I want for my close relationships? What do I wanna contribute to the world? And to let that come out. this intertwined so beautiful with the positive psychology that I've studied in the broaden and build theory.

[00:09:04] Love is one of the 10 big emotions that they talk about. And when we experience these positive emotions, Our life becomes broader. We can see and be more creative because we have a more expansive view versus that fight or flight. Yes. Fight, flight or free or flee mentality where we're just so closed in.

[00:09:33] Mm-hmm. In fact, I think it was you that told me, and I'd never heard this before, that when women experience. Rape or, or trauma, sexual trauma, they often have this guilt about about not doing something differently, like almost as if they welcomed. This experience and I feel a little bit the same of cancer, you know, that I had vulgar cancer and there was a lot of guilt around did I bring this on myself?

[00:10:04] How did this happen? And I think it was you that reminded me that it is fight, flight or, or freeze. And that when women are experiencing something so traumatic, They freeze because that's a way of protecting. They know that they can't fly, they can't flee, they can't run away from this person that's violating them.

[00:10:29] You can't fight them. Likely you're, you're a lesser strength, so you freeze. And when I heard that, it was so freeing that. Oh, I don't, it's not guilt, it's, I actually was doing, I was protecting myself. I was freezing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I've worked with, I've heard hundreds and hundreds of women's stories of sexual violation of, I mean, all the big ones in the small ones.

[00:10:56] And I can tell you that overwhelmingly the majority of responses is to freeze. And not only that, but. Overwhelmingly, we blame ourselves. We feel guilty and responsible for having been violated. So a just huge part of this work, I think, is bringing the stories out of the shadows, you know, out of the darkness of shame, because we hide them and we don't tell anyone and we feel it's our fault and we wanna, you know, but, To actually bring it forward and to really hold these stories up to the light and see the commonalities of not only being violated, but blaming ourselves and feeling responsible.

[00:11:34] It's an incredible burden, so I'm really dedicated to that. Just as you're saying, like the normalizing it, the normalization of it. I think there's this expectation that if we avoid and deny and hide these difficult parts of our lives and our difficult experiences, then we'll be able to move on. But in my experience, it's really through first creating enough safety, you know, to be able to do this and then bringing them into the light that the healing actually happens.

[00:12:02] Hmm. I would, I would echo that so wholeheartedly, because that's been my experience with you. I, in fact, when I met you three years ago I think one of the first questions I was asked was, what are your desires? And I just went completely blank. I know what the word means, but I had none. And, but I had a lot of stories that I had been telling myself for years, and that has been part of my genetic ancestral passing down that you held space for me to, to see and to let those things come to light.

[00:12:39] And it's been a three year journey and I know how I got into it. But how does one begin to recover when, when you start to see people, like what, what is the process? Is there a process for people to start coming to this work? Yeah, well I'd say, you know, most people come to see me because of some kind of sexual issue that, or relationship issue that isn't working.

[00:13:06] But when we get into it, the roots of it really might not be in sexuality. It might be much deeper in, in your life in childhood and family and what's been inherited. Although, so there's sort of the sense of like the symptoms. That you see on the surface are usually not the, not the deeper roots of the problem.

[00:13:26] Tell me more. Well, I mean,

[00:13:28] so I'm thinking of, for example, okay, I mean the most common, if I were to distill almost every single woman I've worked with over the last decade into an archetype, it would be like a woman who. Doesn't feel satisfied with her sexuality. She feels like there's something wrong with her. You know, she feels disconnected from her desire.

[00:13:48] She doesn't understand why, but then when we look into her life, it's, she's in this compulsive roles of caretaking and people pleasing. It's become her job to perform emotional labor for her partner, for her family. She's been the good girl in her family. You know, she works really hard in her job. She never feels like she's enough.

[00:14:07] She doesn't accept her body. She feels. Ugly. She feels uncomfortable. You know, she had some sexually violating experiences in her life, but she also wonders if they really were that bad and feels like she should be over them. And just on and on and on. And so, you know, in that sense, usually what's right at the service is having a very strong inner judge.

[00:14:31] So the, I work with, like, I really work to meet people where they're at. And usually what's at the forefront is the, the judge. Like this kind of, you know, the judge and then the judged child, and then they're just like going back in between, you know, of Like you, you know, you're terrible. I'm so worthless all day in all relationships.

[00:14:54] And so, you know, often we can't actually get to the more vulnerable parts of the, the, the inner child until we work with the judge first. And so in that sense, it's a process of getting people to slow down enough to make contact with their judging, you know, inner critics and to actually slow down and meet that part of you with compassion and curiosity for what it's trying to do for you.

[00:15:21] And usually it says like, I'm trying to make you good so that you'll be accepted and loved. I'm trying to, you know, make sure that you never fail. I'm trying to make sure that you succeed, but it sort has a good intention, but it's behavior has become really dysfunctional. And so through a process of slowing down and actually bringing gentleness into this, we can help this part to relax, and then the system opens up so we can work more with the layers of past traumas, you know, that are coming up.

[00:15:53] This is such beautiful and necessary work, and in particular for cancer survivors. Mm-hmm. For a few reasons. One is they're at this inflection point where They are a, now a changed person from this experience. And they've stepped into this unchanged environment and sometimes it's a little easier to see it.

[00:16:19] Yes. Cause you're, you're finally able to take the time and you realize what's important and what feels a little off. And also it's at this time where you have this. Deep connection to your body, understanding its power and healing and tapping into that, I think this is such a beautiful inflection point.

[00:16:45] I didn't find you right when I had cancer. In fact, I didn't find you until 18 years later when my marriage ended. But had I had your expertise when eight 18 years prior when I was just coming out of it this isn't one of the questions that I had sent to you earlier, but if you were knowing what you know about me, and I don't know if you've worked with other cancer survivors, but just knowing and knowing that there's body bodily changes, there's functionality changes, certainly there's sexuality issues that are brought into it.

[00:17:24] If there were one. Thing that you could offer to people that are kind of stepping into this, what would that be? I love that you're bringing up the inflection point because it's occurring, occurring to me too, that the clients I've done the deepest work with, who I would say have really transformed the most, are all people who came at some kind of real crisis or inflection point in their lives, whether it was cancer, divorce, finding out they've been cheated on having an affair and getting to the, just everyone getting to a point of I cannot, I am unwilling to continue to death of a parent, you know, tragedy in their life.

[00:18:04] Just I am unwilling to continue to live as I have lived. And there is something in that that just, I think, set them free to really face these places that it, it can be hard actually to. Do this deep work with people who don't have that sense of urgency. Mm-hmm. You know, of like, I'm really ready to face this because I think everyone can benefit from doing this work on themselves, but most people don't start to until their problems have become really big, so to answer your question, I think what I'd offer is just to say that, You know, you are different now. That's okay. It's not going to be like what it was before. So it's, there's a letting go of the expectations and the shoulds and the standards that needs to happen because holding onto those will really bring pain.

[00:18:54] And it's irrelevant at this point. But the fact that you are alive now means there is more for you to have and it's gonna happen in your own way, and you get to claim that. That just makes me feel that that was my experience and I, I do hope that people take advantage of all of your offerings.

[00:19:17] Tell me a couple of things that you have coming up. Or that working on or offering? Yeah, so I work, you know, one-on-one with people over a phone and, and video. And I was doing that even before covid. So yeah, I mean I, I'm lucky to have a private practice doing depth work with people around these things.

[00:19:34] Some people come in for kind of short term specific issue and others, it's really becomes about being accompanied in a really deep journey of transformation and healing. So I am taking a client right now. Yeah. And then, you know, in facing the kind of the uncertainties of our time too, I'm doing a lot of online work now offering just different classes around breath, work around movement, all kinds of skills that help us to be more in our bodies, to be in touch with how we are now, not how we think we should be.

[00:20:05] I'm looking forward to running some groups in person and if and when that's possible again too. Yes, and I can attest Leonard lives in California. I'm on the East coast in Massachusetts and I've. Mostly worked with you online and it's, it's been quite fulfilling and magical. So the, this form of communication is not a hinder with this work for sure.

[00:20:29] I have one final question for you. If I were to crush you up and put you in a pill, what effect would you have on someone? Hmm. You know, I think my first thought is like I would bring all the shame up to the surface,

[00:20:49] which maybe doesn't sound like the most attractive thing, but Sounds so cleansing. It's cleansing, you know, it's cleansing. It's like, I like to think it's that balance of both. Of course, like building the strength, the self-love, you know, the aspects of positive psychology as you name, but also I think like one of my.

[00:21:11] Gifts is really being able to hold people in the darkness too. Mm-hmm. Really holding a space that really honors and welcomes grief, rage, all of the, you know, without any fixing, without any minimization without any sense that there's something wrong with you, and really offering this sense that, you know, in the darkness, it's where.

[00:21:35] The potency and fertility of our deepest healing happens, and I think it's my belief in that that helps me to really walk with people through some very dark chapters of their lives and to actually befriend that and get access to the mystery and wholeness that comes from this side of life too. Ugh. Now, if we could just put that on the market in a little bottle.

[00:22:03] We imagine actually we can, it doesn't even have to be in a bottle. I know that it's accessible. Thank you so much for your time. I am so grateful for the work that you bring into the world. It is so necessary and to know that it is indeed accessible. I, I cannot share that enough with the world. That people like you are out there ready to do this work and, and really hold space for people to walk through that, that dark place to find the light.

[00:22:34] Thank you so much, such an honor to do this with you and community. Thank you. Yes, Leonard, we will see more of you and I will put all of your contact information at so people know how to get in touch with you. 

[00:22:46] Sounds great. Thanks again. Have a sparkling day my friend. You too.