Ep. 05 - Tapping Into Body Intelligence with Miranda Holder

[00:00:00] Kathy Washburn: In this episode we talk with Miranda Holder, whose life work has culminated in the sharing of her gifts as a professional leadership coach. Miranda was a former endurance athlete and is a self-proclaimed, recovering type A. She knows full well that connecting with what is true in our own body is the key to clarity and how to move forward.

[00:00:22] Kathy Washburn: Admittedly, this is a step we often omit because we overthink and under feel. Miranda and I talk about the similarities between type A and type C and how we can change these maladaptive coping styles using our own body intelligence. is so much wisdom in this conversation, including the importance of consistent investment.

[00:00:45] Kathy Washburn: Miranda reminds us that we don't go to school for just one year. We go for many years, and that the biggest piece of work is just showing up to keep engaging even when we don't feel like it. Miranda shares several ways that a coaching relationship can invite us to tap into the real time data of our own body intelligence and how this influences our decisions and the designing of our future.

[00:01:10] Kathy Washburn: May this podcast be a catalyst for you to become the better version of you just bursting to step forward? Hello, Miranda Holder, I am so excited to have you here. 

[00:01:58] Miranda Holder: How are you? I'm doing really well, Kathy Washburn. I'm delighted to be here. 

[00:02:03] Kathy Washburn: You know Miranda and I met virtually during c o d and we were both going through a program with the MOMENT Institute, and I was blessed to have her.

[00:02:17] Kathy Washburn: Put in my small group which continues to meet, but I delight in the fact that I know exactly where you're sitting. I know that background. It used to be just an avatar, but I've been there. And why I landed in Vermont is partly your fault. So I know it is really cool to see that. I would love for you to add an introduction of yourself, your work, what you do and kind of how you landed here.

[00:02:49] Kathy Washburn: I know that's a lot, but I would love for an introduction in your words. 

[00:02:53] Miranda Holder: Sure. So I am Miranda Holder. I live in Vermont. I am a leadership, executive and career coach. I am terribly interested in embodied intelligence and what I mean by that is the whole intelligence system of your body. Not just your brain, but your brain as it shows up throughout your body.

[00:03:18] Miranda Holder: And I work most often with people in career transitions or some moment of their life where they're feeling like there is a better version of them, a better expression. Typically they're people recovering from a very ambitious overexerted, perfectionistic approach to life. They're a type A and I am a recovering type A personality, and so they are often in a different place on their journey, and I'm there to support them.

[00:03:52] Kathy Washburn: Mm. I love that you bring up the Type A because what we're talking about is type C and this research was all done around the same time. Dr. Lydia Ock took the exact questions used. In that type a definition and asked them to a different group of people and they answered them completely opposite.

[00:04:19] Kathy Washburn: And I am a, I don't call it recovering type C I call it a transformation transformed type C, but both type A and type C coping mechanisms are. Maladaptive. You know, they served us at some point in our life to keep us safe but they no longer serve us. And I think the beautiful thing is that you and I do this work knowing that.

[00:04:46] Kathy Washburn: Change is possible. We don't have to stay in those old ways of being. I once read in this from a Chinese physician that the subtle signs of Dise and his patient's mind body. By that she is able to sense a change in their voice, their breath, or the emotional tone actually, Detect imbalances, which you do so brilliantly.

[00:05:16] Kathy Washburn: It's almost like you have a spidey sense for what's happening with another individual. And there was one thing that you had said a while ago to me, that you give clients the option and you actually prefer a phone call versus Zoom, which I thought was quite remarkable. And knowing you even better than I knew you then your spidey sense, even being able to detect just from that phone call is quite, quite astonishing.

[00:05:49] Kathy Washburn: So how do you work with these imbalances to nourish and strengthen individuals and a sense of health when you, when you see those things come up? 

[00:05:57] Miranda Holder: Well, I noticed them first through that spidey sense. And then I've gotten confident and experienced enough now eight years into my coaching, or eight 18, if you count the first 10 as a rowing coach.

[00:06:14] Miranda Holder: Where I, I trust that there's real data in what I feel, and I know that there's real data in what I feel because that's my body's nervous system picking up on patterns and it, it's hearing things. And then I invite the client to notice that, and then I invite the client to tell me what that is. So I often don't say, oh, hey, I noticed this and here's what it means.

[00:06:39] Miranda Holder: I say, Just notice that in your voice or what was that breath? Or it kind of feels like even though you're saying this, I'm getting this kind of vibe or energy. Like is that what you mean instead? And so there's, it's always in partnership and an inquiry to make sure that I'm not putting any of my stuff in the space between us and the relationship and.

[00:07:01] Miranda Holder: Then what I feel like is so magical is when they connect to what's true for them in their own body, whether that's a sensation or maybe, you know, looking at their language in a different way or saying, oh yeah, you're right. I actually, that's really what I mean. It's not that it's this. Then the way forward for them becomes more clear.

[00:07:24] Miranda Holder: You know, I 

[00:07:24] Kathy Washburn: think. Whether it's type A, coping, type C coping both of those coping mechanisms we're actually disconnecting us from our true feelings. Right? And, and a type C, you're suppressing it to the point of. Being so other directed where your feelings are received from others feeling for you.

[00:07:50] Kathy Washburn: So you adapt yourself in a type A. I think it's that disconnection from also from outside of you, but in a much different sense. More of a it's like a more powerful other directiveness, but either way. It's a disconnection from what we're feeling. When you first kind of go down this road with clients, is there a an aversion like, Ooh, wait a minute.

[00:08:17] Kathy Washburn: You're asking me to feel something. I don't, I'm not really sure where she's going here. Is there an aversion and how do you, how do you overcome that? 

[00:08:28] Miranda Holder: Well, I spend a fair bit of time with clients before I formally engage with them to make sure it's a good fit because I will say that if somebody came to me and they didn't have any felt sense of their body or their intuition or that we probably wouldn't be a good fit.

[00:08:46] Miranda Holder: And so some of the things that I'm listening for when I first talk to somebody are some, you know, what I call clues or maybe giveaways, that they're open to exploring something like that. They're often former athletes or maybe dancers or yogis with, so they've got some openness or some receptivity or some awareness of their bodies.

[00:09:08] Miranda Holder: Or maybe it's a story where I, I might ask them how they make decisions, because that's often very eyeopening because sometimes they'll say, oh yeah, well, I typically make decisions from my gut, but then I. You know, I'll put together a pros and cons list after the fact, and that will tell me that they do have some connection to that part of themselves and that they're potentially open to doing that kind of work.

[00:09:30] Miranda Holder: And if I haven't ascertained that, I'll make sure to give them a little bit of a taste of coaching with me so they get a sense for. You know, what's it like to sit with somebody else and breathe for a little bit and then be asked what they notice? And if that, if they're like, oh, that's, that's too weird, that's cool, then I'm not the right coach for you.

[00:09:48] Miranda Holder: And I'm gonna help you find the, the person who doesn't ski you out by asking you what it feels like in your body. Because we gotta be a good fit. Mm, 

[00:09:59] Kathy Washburn: yes. I think that's such an important thing to note when people are going down this, this road of. Professional development or self self-worth work, that finding the right coach is as important for the coach as it is for the coachee.

[00:10:21] Kathy Washburn: That's so important. There was one session that I did with you where I was really having a hard time kind of tapping into. Feeling and like most types see people, the feeling of anger really does not come naturally and there's such a stuffing away of it that we don't even really know how to, how to grasp it.

[00:10:46] Kathy Washburn: And your your wisdom led me to just start tapping. On a piece of paper with a pen and using different colored pens to tap. And what happened there was quite extraordinary. The tapping actually created these pictures. And I wasn't really creating them from, I wasn't thinking about creating them.

[00:11:12] Kathy Washburn: They were just kind of coming through me. The first one was this really dark. Started out as this dark blob, I don't know if you remember this, and then all of a sudden it grew wings and it was like, I often talk about these ghosts in my throat, and you had just opened up this valve to give them life because getting angry was not easy for me.

[00:11:35] Kathy Washburn: And, and you were able to not only identify that, but then help me find easier paths through that. Can you talk a little about the necessity of the continued investment in self in this way? Like you and I did not get there. After one meeting, you and I had been working together Oh. For months. And I often see people like, oh, you know, dab into it and then pull back out.

[00:12:07] Kathy Washburn: It's my own personal experience. I would've never been able to get to that point, which then opened up other doors for me to do deeper work had I not been working with you on a repetitive basis. Can you just talk about the importance of that consistent place and what it 

[00:12:27] Miranda Holder: offers? Yeah, and I mean, I think what I'm gonna say is gonna come as no surprise to anyone.

[00:12:35] Miranda Holder: If you, if you plum into your own intelligence system, you know that you don't go to school for one year. You know, you go for many years. If you wanna get ready to run a 5k. You can't get off your couch once. You gotta go running a bunch of times like a, and I think our And I'm guilty of this just like anybody else, right?

[00:12:55] Miranda Holder: We as human beings would love a quick fix always. And what I come back to is my experience as a, as an athlete and remembering that You know, work happens consistently over time and the, the biggest piece of work is just not giving up and continuing to show up and continuing to keep engaging even on the days and the times when you don't feel like doing it.

[00:13:17] Miranda Holder: And we all know that, and I think we get distracted or pulled into or enticed by the potential that. You know, this one thing is gonna be the thing. And I'm, you know, cause we've had this conversation multiple times. I've been like, Kathy, is this gonna be the thing? And you're like, no sweetie, it's not. So as I sit here telling other people about it, I just wanna be really clear.

[00:13:38] Miranda Holder: It's not like I'm not immune or I'm immune to that desire. I'm an impatient person by nature and I would love for things to be quick and easy and they're just they're not always like that. And, I think we, if, if for anyone listening to sink into that thing that you do know, that it, it takes time and it takes repetition.

[00:13:55] Miranda Holder: I think of it like, have you ever seen the if somebody's been caught in a riptide, how they might save that person? It's a, a series of people linking arms into the ocean, you know, and I think of the series of things that happened before you and I started even before you did that tapping exercise, right.

[00:14:10] Miranda Holder: And all the things that have happened afterwards. And you know what an amazing. In some ways it's a more brilliant thing to have amassed many, many, many things that have helped us rather than just one. many jewels instead of just one amazing thing. that's so 

[00:14:27] Kathy Washburn: true. And I see that. Can you talk a little about how you landed here in this coaching space?

[00:14:35] Kathy Washburn: Cuz I, I think it's a similar amassing of. Incredible, incredible 

[00:14:41] Miranda Holder: things. Yeah, I'd be happy to. for a long time. I was a, I was a very awkward kid without a lot of athleticism and somehow some way I worked my way into sports in middle school and high school cuz it was really important to me to belong.

[00:14:58] Miranda Holder: And then I chose rowing in college. And rowing was the thing I really fell in love with of all the things that I had done. Up until that point, physically rowing was the thing and it fed my ego. It, it it was sort of a, a. A bomb for my soul. In a lot of ways, and I was just good enough at it to wanna make an attempt at making the US team after college.

[00:15:22] Miranda Holder: And so I organized my post-college life around a full-time job, but one that was very confined, a nine to five, so I could train on either end of the day. I did that until I was 25 when I got diagnosed with a genetic heart condition, which ironically enough, and I hope you all have a, I hope you all are gonna laugh, like, exercise is bad for me.

[00:15:40] Miranda Holder: And that's what I discovered in this heart condition. And you know, it remains both the funniest and the worst and the best moment of my life getting that diagnosis. And it set me off on a completely different path. I originally thought I wanted to be an editor. Without that rowing in my life, you know, that previous career idea was completely uninteresting.

[00:16:03] Miranda Holder: And so I moved into collegiate rowing coaching because I wasn't ready to hang up my oars, as they say. And I did that for 10 years, totally burned myself out cuz I am a, a good type A person who will disconnect and suffer. And part of what made me a great rower was my ability to tolerate suffering. And ignore it.

[00:16:21] Miranda Holder: 10 years in, I was toast and I needed something new. And it's a, it's a much longer and more complex story, but the short version is that I moved into leadership coaching thanks to the suggestion of an amazing therapist named Steve, who I worked with at Georgetown, which is where I was the head coach at the time when I transitioned.

[00:16:39] Kathy Washburn: It's so fascinating when I hear somebody's trajectory of how they landed, where they landed, and seeing those threads pulled together. Because so often we look at events that happen in our lives as these wayward things that really don't have That synchronicity and I, I don't know. I just find it so fascinating.

[00:17:01] Kathy Washburn: Your story is beautiful. One of the things that , we touched on a little bit this other directedness where people. Just get so used to living from the outside in that they forget how to live from the inside out.

[00:17:17] Kathy Washburn: And you had such a great comment a long time ago about it inside out sock, and I can't help, but I keep thinking about, you know, reaching your hand in and, and writing that that feeling of what it feels like when you have the sock in the, you know, on the, in the right way. But that ability to reclaim our own needs and desires and wants, it's such a crucial step in, I think, the growth of the world for people to be able to have real conversations asking for what they need.

[00:17:53] Kathy Washburn: How do you help them live there again, in their own body? 

[00:17:57] Miranda Holder: Well, if they're, to answer kind of your earlier question again, if they're ready for it, right. I am never gonna take someone someplace that they're not ready for, that they don't feel safe doing that feels too woowoo or out there, even though it's not woowoo at all.

[00:18:11] Miranda Holder: It's just science. What we know about our, how our biology works and not everybody's ready for it, but if they are To me, the thing that is so compelling about it is that I'm I have a tendency to overthink and I was much more in touch with my body, I think even as a teenager. And then kind of through college I went to a really good academic school and, and I think college into my twenties, I got really into.

[00:18:37] Miranda Holder: You know, my brain and, and leveraging it, and it's been a journey to kind of drop back down into my body and integrate my whole intelligence system and trust that what my body is telling me, the sensations that I feel are real time data worth listening to. when people come to me, I find that, you know, they're incredibly smart.

[00:18:57] Miranda Holder: They're, they're brilliant. They don't need help thinking through things like they don't need my brain in a sense. What they need is they need a different experience So when I invite them to maybe slow down or to close their eyes or to you know, ask a different part of themselves what's going on in a given moment.

[00:19:18] Miranda Holder: It's, it feels like all the noise that can happen in your head just fades away. And then whatever they need to hear is very, very clear because your brain is so great at making up stories and those can be really noisy and really distracting and. We also are getting a lot of data from our, our body as well.

[00:19:37] Miranda Holder: We know bias and old narratives live in our body, so there's just tons of stuff coming up and when I work with people, part of what we're doing is working to kind of sort through, like all that's coming up so that they can hear. I mean, I literally just got off the phone before our conversation with a client and it was like parsing out, okay, who's talking?

[00:19:55] Miranda Holder: What is this part of you saying? What's that part of you saying to be able to invite. Them to hear their, what I call their, the us of you, their own voice, that higher self, that wiser self speaking. Because that voice typically, when it speaks the answers that people want it, you know, understand, become very clear.

[00:20:17] Kathy Washburn: You're making me think about this idea of that little adage, we are of two minds. It's so true. Right? And the, the two minds are that judge. That brain telling us that story, that old story, habitual things. And then there's this other part of our brain, this it's referred to as the sage part of the brain some people I think falsely believe is that you can go from one to the other. And actually the way that you go from one side of the brain to the other is through the body.

[00:20:52] Kathy Washburn: You can't really get there. Just, it's not a switch that you can flip. It's that embodied sense. So taking yourself into your own body and being directed to feel so that you can hear those body sensations and, and give them time. One of the practices that you had walked me through when I was in a group setting with you, and I just used it recently with a group of cancer cancer survivors, is this body map.

[00:21:22] Kathy Washburn: Which on its face seems really simple. It's like a picture of a little gingerbread person and you're invited to kind of go through your body from the head to the feet and note what's happening, what you're feeling there. And then I think you had us say, what is that part of your body telling you? And my experience of that was really enlightening when I worked with you, but working with people that have experienced cancer are experiencing cancer going through that, they have been so dis embodied by the treatment, by the very treatment.

[00:22:02] Kathy Washburn: And really disconnected because they hand the, the body, their body kind of over to the medical people. And you might have experienced this too when you were going through your heart diagnosis. it's this weird sense that somebody else has more power or more information than you have. So you start to doubt, doubt your body doubt what it's saying.

[00:22:28] Kathy Washburn: Every time I do that exercise with people that are in that space, there's just tears rolling down their face because they haven't stopped long enough to actually connect with what their body is actually telling them. It's such a beautiful practice and so simple in that loop of getting out of this part of our brain.

[00:22:53] Kathy Washburn: Getting into our body and then engaging with that wisdom that is part of who we are. You've done that a lot. I've done that a couple of times with you. Is that a practice? 

[00:23:06] Miranda Holder: You know, that process of externalization, both you and I learned that from David Drake of narrative, narrative coaching and integrative development from the Moment Institute. So he's the one that gave you and I both those tools of, you know, really anytime we help somebody take something that's inside them and put it outside It helps 'em, but it was actually really spurred by that, that therapist that I mentioned to you that helped me at Georgetown.

[00:23:33] Miranda Holder: There was a, a session that I just viscerally remember where I was sort of like droning on and on and on about like how hard I'd push myself and my body and he just sort of let me do my thing and then I was quiet and he looked at me and he said, you know, really? Sounds like you've asked a lot of your body.

[00:23:49] Miranda Holder: And I just remember like looking at him and starting to weep. Because I, I was like, it was like I, all of a sudden in the chair next to me was my body. And I looked over at her and she was like, yeah, I, I, yeah, you've asked just a phenomenal amount of me. Like, I think of the hours of training, the amount of pain, the blisters, the blood, the like, the throwing up, the, not, not just the rowing, but like be, you know, so much more than that, like.

[00:24:14] Miranda Holder: it was so powerful to have my body separated from me so that I could integrate her, so that I could listen to her more. But seeing her almost as separate from me allowed me to integrate her more. And so I wanted to give my clients that experience. And so I was like, okay, we gotta put it outside to be able to come back in.

[00:24:33] Miranda Holder: So drawing the map was just a way of, Let's, actually, let's pull this. I also think about it like Harry Potter and the Penn Seve like pulling, pulling the thought or whatever the memory out, like pull it out of you, put it in front of you. What do you see? It's all there. Don't give it space and you don't visualize it.

[00:24:49] Miranda Holder: Yes. 

[00:24:50] Kathy Washburn: It's that expressing like, again, that kind of letting the ghosts in the throat find a way outside of your body. And in doing so, there is that, that reframing the narrative. You know, we get to tell ourselves a new story. That's the other beautiful thing in all of this work. It's understanding, you know, one story.

[00:25:14] Kathy Washburn: Is true is not true. Was true is, you know, you can re we retell it. I think about my divorce story and the story I told right after my divorce to the story I tell now is a completely different story. You know, it's just a beautiful thing to have somebody walk with to reframe the story. in a way that can help us be our better versions.

[00:25:44] Kathy Washburn: You spoke about readiness and I, I bump into this a lot where people say, well, I don't know if I'm ready. And again, type C people are gonna put themselves at the last, at the bottom rung of the latter. they've been coping by doing so much for others that. Their needs are really low. So I, I grapple with that also, cuz I know that feeling of, well, I can't possibly do that for myself.

[00:26:13] Kathy Washburn: So that I'm not ready. But what, what do you think are some signs of readiness to do this work? 

[00:26:20] Miranda Holder: well, I notice with some clients or prospective clients that when there is often a question that I will ask is, you know, once we do some work, getting clear on, you know, what do you wanna get out of coaching?

[00:26:34] Miranda Holder: What do you hope is different on the other side? you know, what's the, what's the cost of not doing anything? Like what's the cost of essentially staying in the same place And Not all the time, but oftentimes as we're kind of exploring that question, there'll be some emotion that comes up. And when people are connected to that, it, it feels pretty powerful in terms of, you know, if this is how strongly you feel with a complete stranger, you know, on Zoom or on the phone, after less than 60 minutes, there's, there's some powerful energy.

[00:27:05] Miranda Holder: Motivation, whatever you wanna call it to make things different. And so I often try to give space for that and, and work with that. Because I think it's, you know, type A people in some ways. Like we put ourselves last, we put ourselves last for a different reason, but still last, you know last in favor of results, last in favor of performance.

[00:27:26] Miranda Holder: Last in favor of doing, you know doing for others, but in a different way and. You know, connecting to that sense of, what's that gonna cost me to keep living that way, to keep working that way, what is it already costing me is a really powerful framework I find for people to reflect and get connected.

[00:27:46] Miranda Holder: And then it's up to me to stay unattached to the, you know, where they are. And they may not be there yet, and that's okay too. 

[00:27:52] Kathy Washburn: I love those questions. I love that line of questioning and. I think so many people, including myself, did not un, I did not understand that doing that, that suppressing, that o your own voice, suppressing emotions actually is, traumatizing to your internal system.

[00:28:15] Kathy Washburn: You know that your immune function, your, the biology that's happening underneath the surface surface that you think you're keeping in control by these maladaptive coping ways, it's actually hurting you from the inside out. so often when people come to me They wonder, I think I need a therapist.

[00:28:39] Kathy Washburn: I don't think I need a coach. In a perfect world, I think that we all need both. there are other times when I, I'm working with somebody and I realize that they indeed do need a therapist at that time, but there's so much that you can do in. As a coach to help with that. Enhancing of the immune system, like working as a benefactor instead of a detractor.

[00:29:08] Kathy Washburn: I'm just thinking about right, the ways that we help people in a coaching atmosphere that are a little different than therapy, but actually healing that. Inner turmoil. 

[00:29:20] Miranda Holder: Yeah, well I think, you know, cuz you've heard David Drake talk about this, that coaching can be therapeutic even though it's not therapy.

[00:29:29] Miranda Holder: And I will often, you know, quote him to people. Who, who do they say to me, you know, well, I'm talking about my feelings a lot. How is this not therapy? And I'm like, it's not therapy because A, I'm not trained to do therapy. We haven't diagnosed you and we're not spending a lot of time, you know, mucking around in your past trying to heal past pain.

[00:29:52] Miranda Holder: You know, we're getting present to what is, which does often involve a lot of emotion, but that's just being human. Then we're making, you know, decisions and designing a future for you to move forward in a different way. And I think it like that characterization just. I think demonstrates our culture's approach to, you know, we generally like to bifurcate things off.

[00:30:17] Miranda Holder: Right? And it's part of why we, it's, it's why we're talking because I would like there to be more integration, but even in our culture, we live from our head up. So we, we are used to, you know, I go to my dentist, they, they handle my teeth. I go to my podiatrist, they handle my feet, I go to my whatever, and they handle this like everything is.

[00:30:34] Miranda Holder: I know you've experienced that so much being the hot potato, even between doctors, you know, in and out both during your cancer experience and after. to me, it's an, an invitation to see how these things come together rather than how they're separate. And I think that's just an unusual approach for the average person.

[00:30:53] Kathy Washburn: And the results can be, Absolutely magnificent. Can you share one of your success stories where a client really kind of got it and it took them places?

[00:31:06] Miranda Holder: I was just about to say so many, and then I was like, oh, that sounds so obnoxious. But no, it's, I have the most amazing clients. I have the most amazing people that I get to work with. Yeah, I think the one that's coming up coming to mind is an individual who, when I was first speaking with them, You know, they had that strong emotion when I was asking them those questions around the cost.

[00:31:30] Miranda Holder: And, you know, a lot of tears came up and a lot of just exhaustion, right? This person was just, Absolutely rung out and tired and missing time with their family and, you know, literally working all night not sleeping not taking care of their body, not feeling like they're performing well at work.

[00:31:51] Miranda Holder: And six months later, like they are, they're considering You know, reorienting their life around family time and fun. Like even to the point where they're gonna move to a different country because they really wanna make sure that they get to, you know, they've got three younger kids and they wanna make sure that's gonna happen right now and not in 20 years when they've retired and feel like they can, or allow themselves to have that space.

[00:32:18] Miranda Holder: And this person is a, you know, a CEO of a big company. Like they, they have a huge job and a big family life and. The simple or the seemingly simple act of slowing down and paying attention to their body, attending to the needs that their body is telling them about, and being able to act from that place has been profoundly transformative for that person.

[00:32:42] Miranda Holder: And seeing even the different, like we also work through those different voices like what was showing up in the body. And this person had some really amazing names. For this is my performance manager, and this is my HR manager, and this is my communications director. And, you know, learning to work through Allah, you know, internal family systems work, but learning to work through all these competing parts of themselves and to honor them and then to make sure that that, you know, deeper, wiser, Part of themselves were the ones really driving and, and staying as the leader and staying in control.

[00:33:18] Miranda Holder: And not in control, but staying as the, as the director so that they could stay in alignment with themselves. 

[00:33:24] Kathy Washburn: Thank you for mentioning that because what you just described is authe, living authentic, living authentically, which I do believe is what we all are here and meant to do. And that these, barriers or these thresholds that we cross are all in an effort to get, get us to that point.

[00:33:43] Kathy Washburn: And I don't think it can be done in the vortex of ourselves. I really think that In community with other people in community, with a coach who has that objectiveness and safeness to be able to practice being that person is just crucial. Thank you. That person is a very blessed person to be touched by you, as am I.

[00:34:10] Kathy Washburn: I would like to close it off with one special question that I love to ask my interviewees. If I were to crush you up and put you in pill form, what effect would you have on someone taking that pill? 

[00:34:25] Miranda Holder: yeah. I love that question. And I've thought about this. I wish I knew more about chemistry to be able to understand this, but I would be, I'm thinking of almost cloudy water or murky water, and if you crushed me up and put me in a pill or you drop me into that water, there would be clarity and the murkiness would disappear.

[00:34:44] Miranda Holder: And it's not, but it's not me, right? Like I show up and I help the other person do that for themselves. 

[00:34:50] Kathy Washburn: That chemistry taking two, two things together for it, it to happen. Mm. Beautiful. Thank you Miranda, for your time and your energy and what you're doing in the world. I know it matters. 

[00:35:03] Miranda Holder: Mm. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for letting me talk and talk about what I love and what's near and dear to my heart. Mm. 

[00:35:11] Kathy Washburn: Is there anything that you have coming up we'll put links to all of your stuff. Miranda is a phenomenal writer. Her blogs are amazing but she often has workshops, so do you have any coming 

[00:35:23] Miranda Holder: up?

[00:35:23] Miranda Holder: Yes. I, so once a month I have free offerings where you can come and do a little bit of movement and be with music, and then there's some community and journaling. It's really a way to I hope in a really easy, accessible way, drop into your body and get present to what whatever it is that your body needs to tell you in that moment.

[00:35:42] Miranda Holder: So that's once a month. And this coming fall, we're in the middle of it right now, and I'll run it down in the fall. I do a course called building Leadership Presence through Embodied Intelligence. And so it's the, it's helping people who maybe are, would like to be more connected to their bodies and who wanna tap into that embodied intelligence and who are maybe 

[00:36:03] Kathy Washburn: just 

[00:36:03] Miranda Holder: a little bit or a lot skeptical about what that is and is that baloney or woowoo or whatever.

[00:36:09] Miranda Holder: And it, so it's the science and the practice of, you know, understanding how your biology is designed, how you can trust it, and, and then practicing what it actually looks like to put that in place in your life and in your leadership. 

[00:36:22] Kathy Washburn: Beautiful. We'll make sure there links to both of them. Thank 

[00:36:25] Miranda Holder: you, sweetie.

[00:36:27]