Ep. 28 - Exploring the Profound Impact of Dignity with Bob Fabey
[00:00:00] Our guest for today's episode is Bob Fabie. Bob and I shared the TEDx stage in Canada last fall
and his talk about dignity continues to linger.
The topic feels both significant and timely.
He's also the author of The Dignity Gap, which provides readers dignity based people skills. which includes strategies and insights that will help revolutionize the way one approaches their life and work.
Bob and I talk about what it means to have dignity, how seeing the dignity in others helps us understand our own sense of self worth and how we can deal with conflict under the influence of dignity. Bob also helps us understand the difference between dignity and other words such as respect, grace, and even mercy.
If you do nothing else after listening to this podcast, I invite you to enter each human interaction as an opportunity to use [00:01:00] dignity. Every person you come in contact with, whether it's a family member, a grocery clerk, a fellow worker or someone on the news, I want you to say to yourself, and this means no matter how the interaction goes, what your initial reaction to these other people are or who they are, but say to yourself, we both matter the exact same amount.
See how that impacts your thinking dignity. It is indeed a human birthright. May this podcast be a catalyst for you to become the better version of you just bursting to step forward. Transcribed
[00:02:00]
Kathy Washburn: Welcome Bob Fabie.
Kathy Washburn: I am so excited to have this connection with you. This is going to be such a great hour.
Bob Fabey: Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Kathy Washburn: Yes. Bob Fabie and I met, we were both speakers on the TEDx stage and Canada last His talk about dignity, really made its mark in me.
I've thought about it several times since then. I actually chose that word dignity two years ago. I usually choose a word to focus on for the year. And as I delved into it through that year, I thought, this is the most underused word. And it needs more. It needs more [00:03:00] exposure. So I'm delighted to bring you into this conversation and diving into this topic.
Bob did write a book. is this one of many or is this a series? It's
Bob Fabey: one, it's one of two. So yeah.
Kathy Washburn: Yes. Called the Dignity Gap. And it's a book that I really wish I had when I worked in corporate America, and highly recommend, but I'm getting ahead of myself.
Kathy Washburn: I invite Bob to introduce himself and just share with the listeners, what you're working on, who you serve, what's happening in your world.
Bob Fabey: Great. Thanks so much, Kathy. I, I would say first of all, who I serve is, is that people that feel undervalued and, and kind of stuck maybe, maybe undignified a little bit and help them to, to get to feeling And understanding their dignity, so kind of like a devalued to dignified would be who I [00:04:00] work with.
And that's a lot of people from from it's funny. You said corporate America, because a lot of people that are in their workplaces feel undervalued or devalued. Or even dehumanized if they're feeling objectified. And so what I'm trying to do is, is take the message of dignity and say, well, what does it look like to move from feeling that way to to, to feeling dignified?
And so I work with a wide variety of people because of that. Some folks have their own businesses, some are C suite execs, and some are entrepreneurs, and it's kind of a wide swath, but they're all in maybe in the same, same category, the way that I think about it is because I can't use copyrighted material, I would say there's a character who is in a movie that sounds like The Amazings, And his name is Rob far, he's not happy at work and he can't function [00:05:00] and who he is and what he means to be.
And it's only until he discovers or kind of reignites his identity that he can participate in a way. That's meaningful for those of his family and those around him. So, if you can read between the lines, then you did an incredible job. Getting my terrible, terrible, terrible way of saying that's who I work with and who I work for.
And I'm just so excited to help people kind of find a deeper meaning around what it is that they do this. As human beings, so that's what I'm doing. And brings me a ton of joy.
Kathy Washburn: And that was palpable. Both when I first met you and also watching you talk about this topic, there was just so much passion in what you do, and as a type C person, where there's a lot of others directedness where.
You know, from a young child, I [00:06:00] learned that if I could do and be for somebody else, I got some validation in my existence. And, you know, it's not that I grew up in some terrible home or, or was abused in any way. I grew up in a home that was, had two really hardworking parents, a very Protestant work ethic kind of home.
I got a lot of validation. By what I did. I started working when I was very young. We didn't have a lot of money. So I found that sense of worth from outside of myself.
Kathy Washburn: And I remember when I was reading your book about dignity and realizing. It's really an inside out kind of thing. I, I always understood it to be, you must have dignity for other people, but I've realized in that year I delved into it.
And also with your work is you [00:07:00] can't do that unless you have dignity and self worth. For yourself, understanding that you actually matter. You can't allow anybody else to matter until you do that. Is that true?
Bob Fabey: Yeah, it's tough. It's so tough because it's, it's a both end, but I think what happens is, is that if you get the cart ahead of the horse, that's where you get into trouble.
Because I think what happens for most of us is we can look at other people and we could say, man, I really want to value their dignity. I want to violate don't want to violate their dignity. Want to validate it. That's, Donna Hicks language. Then I think what happens is though is that when we do that for others, we actually help discover our own.
But it's, it's, it has to be, and it can't be, like you said just derived from other people. There has to be a sense of, of our own worth and our own value. And a lot of people will say, well, I can't, I can't validate anybody else's unless I know mine. And I would say, well, that's true to a degree.
I think you have to be in the [00:08:00] process of learning that, but then you can be helping other people do that as well. And in doing that, that's when you start to understand a little bit more about your, your worth and your value.
Kathy Washburn: That's so interesting. It's no shock that I do what I do and why I do it because I have so many clients come to me.
Seeking dignity, but they don't call it that they call they were they use words like I want to be more confident or I want to be more authentic or I want to have a greater self esteem. And I realized like that was me. That's who I was. And the more I work with them, the more I see that intrinsic value in myself.
Bob Fabey: Yeah, that's super good, isn't it? Well,
Kathy Washburn: it seems a little selfish. Again, that's a type C. There's a little guilt and selfishness there, but I think it's more selfful than I'm giving it credit for.
Bob Fabey: It's cathartic, you know, where you don't realize you're healing as you're going about [00:09:00] it. And I think that's an important part of that.
And I, and I would also say that those are, you know, people are often looking for the results. So, so those are outworkings of what it means to, to, to understand and to, to be dignified and to, to embrace our dignity. So, you do have more confidence because of that. And so people will say, well, I'm looking for confidence.
And what I know is that that's. That's a byproduct of. And so I, I, I try to lead people in a direction that goes maybe a little bit deeper and help them to see, like, well, if you believe this is true about you, then confidence is a natural outworking of those things. So it's dignity that way, because dignity is a primary identity and it has to be it has to be that it can't, it's, it's, it's a, I think, yeah, it's Donna hit, she calls it a birthright.
And I agree with that. Because you're human, because you were born, [00:10:00] you, you have this, this is yours you have dignity period, a hundred percent. And then for me as a faith based person the way that I think about it is, is that then you, you have a unique role to play because you, you were created for that.
And so when you bring those things together, then the outworking of that is like, wow, I can't believe I get to have. An impact in the world that that's around me, that I get to play a role that I never thought I would be able to play or participate in something I never thought I would be able to participate in.
And those are all kind of outworkings of of what it means to be dignified.
Kathy Washburn: So what actually is the definition of dignity? I think you just highlighted a few aspects of it that are great.
Bob Fabey: There's human dignity, and I want to kind of pull pull these things a little bit apart a little bit. Human dignity is the idea that every single human who has ever lived or whoever will live as dignity has worth has value because of their humanity.[00:11:00]
And it's just that simple. So, so the, the, I mean, pick it the, the, the person who's born into royalty and who will live a life of luxury and, and and privilege in certain cases is of no greater value in terms of being a human being than the orphaned child in India, who has no. No family, and in some, some ways, no future.
They're both of, of value. And, and the reason that they're valuable is because they're human. And they can all, we can always learn from each other what it means to be human. And, and they'll have different perspectives and uniquenesses that, that, that can strengthen us in terms of that. And so it's not even about, what they could potentially do, although that is part of it.
They could potentially be something different or do something different that has massive impact. But it has to do with the fact that they're human and they're, you know, They're human in a way that no one else will ever be human. No one [00:12:00] else will have their, their fingerprint or their laugh or their, their unique outlook on life.
And so, so literally it's like these, these, these people, however disparate they may be, or however different that it's like, they're one of a kind, they're never going to happen again. And, and that means that they haven't intrinsic value. So. That's human dignity. When I think about dignity, broad based, you know, you can have dignity as societies where when we talk about it on a societal level, then it becomes really challenging because everybody wants to say something different about what that means.
The way that I like to think about it is that there are a friend of mine, his name is Thomas Claiborne. He, he and I were talking about it and he said he sees seeds of dignity, if not Kind of fully orbed senses of dignity, but seeds of dignity that are planted and that our society has and they're based.
So the way that I think about that is that. You know, we have a, we, in [00:13:00] almost every country and almost every town and almost every village, you're like, there's like a fire brigade or like firemen or, you know, emergency structures and things like that. Well. You know, in order to receive those, those things, nobody runs up and asks you how you voted.
If you're, if you're trapped in a car on the highway, you know, and the, and the, and the emergencies, you know, crew shows up, you know, they're not giving you an interview about like, wait, you gave to what political organization or, Hey, you don't sit where I sit on the social issue. So I'm not going to rescue you out of this car.
The idea is that there's somebody in a car and they need help. And we actually have people as a society that we pay who will go into that car or into a burning building to rescue us because. They're human and because they have value, not because they agree with us or any, any of those things. And so that's, that's, that's a, that's a place where our society honors dignity, where we [00:14:00] say this actually matters now, how those goods are distributed is a whole other question.
You know, I mean, there's so many stories about how they're, you know. Inappropriately distributed and things like that. The, the idea is that there's a seed there and that that's something that we can, we can latch on to as a society. So, then things like after World War 2, you know, the, the United Nations Charter on, on, on humanity, and they, the very 1st thing comes out of their mouth is that every person has dignity.
And so, so. There's human dignity. And then there's like societal dignity. Like, what, how do we think about people and how do we think about one another? And, and there's, there's all the places in between where we need to be thinking critically and thinking really well about what it means to live with one another.
And, and, and really recognizing and celebrating each other's dignity. When it comes to what I would call like the creative world, in other words, like, you know, just, The [00:15:00] globe whether we're talking about the ecosystems or other things, you know, it's not a far stretch for me to say, well, how can I live in a dignified manner with, with my relationship with the earth and with, you know, other, other creatures.
And I think that's a really important question that we need to be asking and that there's dignity there too. So. So I wouldn't say that that other things have the same value as human beings, but I would say that they have value in terms of their own dignity and that they're worthy of that. And so you know, ethically treating animals really important.
It's part of dignity. Having having a right relationship with the planet that we live on is really important. I think that has to do with dignity. So it really can kind of cover human interactions as well as all sorts of other interactions.
Kathy Washburn: As you spoke, there's there is like this little whisper of grace.
Bob Fabey: Is
Kathy Washburn: it the [00:16:00] same as grace?
Bob Fabey: So it's because of my background. I think about grace very particularly. And I would say grace is unmerited favor. So, I would say yes, of course, there's whispers of grace in that. And it could be because of the sacredness of humanity.
It could be for, for a variety of reasons. It would make sense to me if, if I believe in, in a creator who is gracious, then, then the things that he has created would inherently have some measure of the capacity to receive grace or to give grace, there's also a term mercy, and I think of grace and mercy, like two sides of the same coin and mercy then is, is when you deserve a punishment and you don't get it.
You know, like when maybe your kids are acting out and you're like, you know, you really should be put in time out or something, but you don't do it because you, you know, you want to have mercy on them. And, and what we know from, from my background, it says, it [00:17:00] says it's God's mercy that leads people to change.
It's God's kindness. And so both mercy and kindness for me go together and they help bring about change for people. So when I'm looking at someone, they may not have earned. My treating them with dignity, but I would look at them and say, well you don't have to earn that for me. You're a fellow human being, or they may have behaved really poorly and their behaviors unacceptable.
And you can pick any variety of things and then I could say, well, I can still treat you with dignity despite how you've chosen to behave. And those are really important. And so, so I think of grace and mercy as very dignifying behaviors
Kathy Washburn: and
Bob Fabey: ways to interact with one another.
Kathy Washburn: I guess I should have probably introduced you, or at least made a note in the introduction that you are an Anglican priest
Bob Fabey: and
Kathy Washburn: have been in that practice [00:18:00] for a long time.
20 years, I think. Is that right?
Bob Fabey: Yeah, I've been in, I've been in ministry for, for a long time. I've been an Anglican priest since 2009.
Kathy Washburn: Yes. So you, you invite that faith. Into it, which, you know, mercy, grace, faith, dignity, there's, there's a lot of, they're a little enmeshed in my, in my heart and in my mind.
Bob Fabey: I think, I think, I think that's true. And, and for people who aren't, of a particular faith, the thing that's beauty, beautiful about dignity is, is that, you know, you don't have to be somebody of. And, and, I mean, I think everybody has faith. It's a question of what you put your faith in.
But you don't have to be a Christian to believe in Dignity. That's, that's not a prerequisite. What I find in the Christian message is, is a very clear very compelling view of humanity that is, that is, you know, [00:19:00] kind of right in that line. And so, I see zero. how I think about what it means to be a human from a Christian lens, but then also what it means to live in dignity.
With those around me, so
Kathy Washburn: yeah, I love that. You said that because I, I really like, we don't need and you say this in your book and we all, we all understand. We don't need more boxes to separate us like, so we all stand on the foundation of dignity, would be. Just a beautiful idea of, and the way, when you were describing it, you know, in positive psychology, one of the first things I learned about was this, it was like a survey similar to Myers-Briggs.
Bob Fabey: Mm mm-Hmm. . Yeah.
Kathy Washburn: It was called the, it's called the Via Character Strength Survey.
Bob Fabey: Mm-Hmm. .
Kathy Washburn: And the way that I describe it to clients is if you think of the Myers-Briggs, it's like how you, how you interact with the world. [00:20:00] Outside and the via character strengths. I think them as I think of them as roots of a tree that that is the tree.
The branches are Myers Briggs, but the Is who you are. And when I first filled it out, so there's an enormous amount of research that goes into this, survey, but they've come up with 24 characters traits that all of us have and you fill out a survey. I think it's like 100 questions. It takes about 20 minutes and it orders your strengths from 1 to 24, like your strongest strengths.
As a positive psychology coach, I refer to them as your signature strengths. And it's things that just are innately you that come very naturally to who you are.
I really believe this is kind of the door opening for a type C person to rediscover their identity because [00:21:00] 99 percent of the time I do this survey, have these, have my clients do this survey and they say, Yeah, actually that is me and I had one young woman who I was coaching and she did she was part of the foster care system and she had aged out of the foster care system and I was working with her through this nonprofit group that was really trying to specifically young women, get them into a safe home environment or living environment And help them get into college, to go this other route because the statistics say aging out of the foster care system is
Bob Fabey: terrible.
Kathy Washburn: It's terrible. Right? So, I, I did this survey with her and she had a little sassy 1 and she came and she kind of threw the results at the table and I said, wow, you know, what's what's happening? What's up for you? And she said. That, that is [00:22:00] what is right in me and nobody's ever told me that
Bob Fabey: I've
Kathy Washburn: only known what is wrong with me.
And so building on like, this is uniquely you and, and I, when you were talking, I couldn't help, but. Merge that idea of like, these are, this is my human, right? This is what I bring into the world. This is my uniqueness that I can share with the world. If I can only allow myself to grab onto it and use it for good.
You know, several of her strengths in her eyes, she said, Oh, I've been using that against me.
I mean, one of her, her strengths was judgment, which was the ability to see things from all sides, the need to take in a lot of information
Bob Fabey: and
Kathy Washburn: she admitted she did that to manipulate people to get what they, she needed and
Bob Fabey: [00:23:00] survival instinct.
That's what
Kathy Washburn: I said to her. I said, sweetie. You're surviving, but you have all you have the same skill set that you can use for good. So this idea of dignity and, and this honoring. In oneself and in recognizing and celebrating one another's dignity is such a strong foundation that, we need in this world right now.
And I can't help but think how divisive we've become in your book. You do this great job of describing, and I, I'm not going to do it well, but you talk about the fact that we all do bad things, and. realizing when we're, we're judging other people, we we kind of forget that we too do bad things.
Can you explain that? Do you know what I'm talking about in the book?
Bob Fabey: I think so. I think so. Yeah. Well, one of the, one of the biggest challenges and you probably know [00:24:00] this, the same, but that we like to judge others by their behavior, but we judge ourselves by our motivation. And the idea is that we will see somebody behave in a way that, that we would.
You know, we just don't agree with, and we find a porn and all that person they did this thing and then we will assign character to them based on what they what they've done. you know, somebody's. Whether they're having a bad day, whatever the reason is, but they, they behave poorly. Let's say they.
I mean, I think I use traffic a few times in the book, because everybody can relate to traffic and and I live in the phoenix metro area. So, sometimes the driving is a little bizarre, but somebody can cut you off in traffic. And instead of saying, you know, like. Oh, this person's vehicle moved in front of me in a quick manner, which is all that happened.
That person's a jerk. And they need to get off the road and there's something wrong with them. What why who gave them a license? What are they doing? I mean I can build an entire court case around somebody's behavior [00:25:00] And of course if I cut somebody off or even if i'm perceived to have cut somebody off that's not true of me I'm, not a jerk.
I you know, there was something in the in the road And so I swerved to get over I mean you can you can paint Any different picture you want of somebody's behavior. And, and there are things that are true where, you know, people will say, like, listen to people when they tell you who they are, you know, by their behavior, you know, you're seeing.
And so, so what I, what I think is important for us to be able to do is to say, I see your behavior and that doesn't make you less dignified in my eyes. It may mean that, that you don't know. So this young woman that you were telling the story about, the thought that nobody's ever talked to her about who she is and the strength that she brings to the world is just, it's crippling.
And, and so, you know, I think of it like, It's not a handout. It's a hand up. So, so in that case, it's like, she may not have the capacity to, to kind [00:26:00] of understand and to, to embrace her dignity. But, but you do, and you can offer that to her and say, this is who I see in you. This is, this is how I see you and, and you did a great job.
You know, when you're saying, well, here's, here's the behavior. And she saw it, you know, like, Hey, this is something I probably shouldn't be doing. It's like, it's okay. Do it in this way. That's that's hugely dignifying. It's it's so, so important. So, so we have to be able to separate behavior from, from, from identity.
And, and you can ask the question, like, well, are there good people and are there bad people? And what we want, our brains really want simple categories to put people in. And so we, we work really hard to do that. And, and then, and then we do that, but, but then we don't put ourselves in those categories, or we do, and we think it's irredeemable that it would never be any different.
So, oh, well. You know, I behaved this way. Therefore, my entire life is written and that's just who I am. And it's like, no, [00:27:00] that's not true either. So we're more than our behaviors. We have to be. It makes no sense that we wouldn't be more than our behaviors and and that we have to function that way and look at 1 another that way and and find ways to evaluate other people's behavior and our own behavior that doesn't put us in the kind of those trenches that are just really easy to define.
Kathy Washburn: Yeah. So that's a, that's a beautiful way to begin building a sense of dignity.
Kathy Washburn: Uh, are, are, what are some other ways to build a sense of dignity or live with dignity? I'm not sure how to phrase that.
Bob Fabey: Sure, sure. I, and, and, you know, there's terms like validate dignity, recognize dignity, champion dignity.
You know, it's it's a hard thing to say, but it's really it's about how do I build a dignified identity? You know, like, how can I make that 1 of my primary [00:28:00] or my primary identity? And that's a great question. I never know where people are starting. And and I always want to question beliefs. So, I wonder where the starting point for people is.
Tell me about who you are. I mean, tell me about what brings you joy. Tell me about. I mean, so, so I would want to ask a whole host of questions. If somebody's trying to do this by themselves, then I would, I would try to try to create, I would create something for them to say, like. Tell me all these things about you, what's your greatest, what's your greatest joy?
What are you most proud of? What are you most ashamed of? What do you, you know, kind of get a whole, a whole picture. And then, and then, you know, ask people questions about like, well, tell me when was the time when you felt like you were the best human ever? When did you feel really like, man, that was amazing.
And I, I felt really good about who I was, and then I'd ask questions about that and just say, help me understand what was going on around that. So, so I would ask a series of questions. [00:29:00] Now, if you're not where you have an opportunity to have somebody ask you those questions, or just sit with you or to kind of those things, what I would do is, is if, you know, for your listeners, I would say.
It's really hard to answer this question. So if I say, well, who do you really believe you are? I mean, then we're like, well, not everybody's pensive. And so they're not going to get there. But if I said, you know, when, when was the time you were most proud of yourself? And then when was the time maybe where you were the least proud of yourself and what were you doing when, and, and what was it of.
About those situations that, that, that caused you to feel that way. So oftentimes, you know, people are least proud of themselves when they've violated their own values, where they know, like, man, I, I knew I shouldn't have done that. And I did it anyways, or I didn't know the impact that my actions were going to have.
And man, I really wish that didn't happen. And so you have an understanding a little bit about maybe what you did and why you did it, but then [00:30:00] also the impact that those things have. But then if I ask the question or they get a chance to answer the question, like, when were you most proud? And you were like, Hey, maybe, you know, I won the spelling bee in 4th grade.
And you say, tell me about that. Well, I studied and I, and I saw the fruit of it and I beat so and so who always wins. And, and when I looked out on the class, I could see everybody smiling at me and the teacher seemed really proud. And I'm like, that's awesome. So what does it look like for you then to, to think about ways in which, that thing is true about you regardless?
Well, I never did it again. I never won the spelling bee. I was always 17th place and blah, blah, blah. So, and I would say, well, apparently it's not about the spelling bee. It's not about achieving something. It's about who you were as you did that thing. And it may not even be an achievement. Maybe, maybe it was a way that you behaved when, when things were really difficult and you decided, [00:31:00] you know what, I'm going to do the hard thing and I'm going to do it the right way.
And you were really proud of that. So there could be any number of places where that, that could be. And I would say, well, let's start at those places. And because the thing, the thing that we, the thing that we do is we want to say, well, that maybe there was a person or there was an event or kind of a gradual piece where you just start believing something's true about you that may or may not be true at all.
And what we know is that our beliefs are stronger than the truth. So, something like, I mean, I will never forget this I haven't thought about this in a long time, but I went to the I had to visit the mental health hospital for a young lady. And no lie, she was 1 of the most beautiful people I've ever seen in my life.
I mean, stunningly beautiful, and she was covered in scars. And I was just kind of like, man, you know, I said, tell me, you know, how are you doing? What's going on? And she did [00:32:00] not believe that she was beautiful or she wanted to make sure that she wasn't so that she didn't attract the attention that she didn't want to have.
But it was like, here's the subjective reality and it's not just about me saying, oh, this is a beautiful person. It's like. Everybody can recognize that this young lady is really something, but she can't see it herself. And so part of what I say is that. We get freed in a way that you can't be free.
When we put the truth and and our beliefs together. So when we align what's true and and what we believe there is this crazy freedom that occurs. it's a bit of an unstoppable force, I think. you know, obviously, there's a reference to to what Jesus had to say is, hey, if you know, the truth will set you free.
From from a number of things, but I see that as as our beliefs line up with what's true, then. It's a really, really powerful way of framing your life and, and and operating.
Kathy Washburn: I really hear that. And, [00:33:00] I've experienced that myself. There's one, there's a song from Mumford and Sons and it says, lend me your eyes.
Kathy Washburn: I can change what you see.
Bob Fabey: That's so good.
Kathy Washburn: And I, I just, it has been kind of a bedrock and, and what I've been doing in the last seven years. But I remember being in this cohort for positive psychology.
And one of my cohorts said, Kathy, I don't understand like why you can't see what, what all of us see. And I had the piece of paper saying that, you know, here are my top strengths and I aligned with them. I, I, there was a sense of belief, but I wasn't, I hadn't stepped yet into the truth of it all.
And, I was just felt so broken. And so, because. I spent so much of my life if somebody said to me, so, you know, tell me about who you are. I would [00:34:00] have told you I was a great mom. I was a great wife. I was an incredible worker very loyal. you would have probably said, okay, you know, tell me who you are.
And I just didn't know who that was. And all of those things had been removed. So there I was, not really knowing who I was. And so another gentleman said to me, when we were all talking, you just need to believe in the belief that others have in you until you believe it yourself.
Kathy Washburn: So as you were talking and I'm thinking, and you, you alluded a couple of times to, if you, Don't have anybody to talk to. Like, here are some questions to ask yourself. I really think the magic is when you are witnessed in who you are from another human's perspective. Eyes or voice or so here I am telling you, like, a type C is kind of dependent on the [00:35:00] validation of others, but there is a need a human need to have another person.
See me. So that I can begin to see myself in that way. Is that, am I blowing that out of proportion? No,
Bob Fabey: no. A hundred percent. We like, we're not, we are not made to live alone. We're not made to live outside of community. No matter, no matter what people want to say or whatever, we champion in terms of that, it is, it is an antithetical to being human.
We're to be together. There's no question. We're, we're a grouping people or, or organism. Well, however you want to think about it. so there has to be affirmation about that kind of thing. There's, there's no question and I would say to, if I may, I mean, part of what you said was that.
Bob Fabey: you know, those things have been taken away and I would say, well, your relationship to them changed because you never stopped being a mom, you know, but it changed in a different way.
And so much of those, that is that loss of identity where it's like, oh, I thought I was [00:36:00] this. I'm this now in a new way. And what is that? What opportunities does that give me? I don't know. Do I mourn the loss of the things that I used to? Yes, of course. But you didn't, you didn't, you didn't stop being a mom, and so, yeah, it's our, our relationship to things, you know, changes and how we orient to that's really important.
I mean, my, my mom, she's creeping up on 80 and she's like, I still get to be your mother. I get that. So, so it's, it's really, it's really weird how, the way that we think about ourselves in the roles that we're playing can, can radically change and then cause this massive identity gap where we're just, man, we're lost.
And I think, I think that can happen in, in massive ways and in, in really tiny ways, you know, whether, whether it's, you know, people get passed up at work for promotion or, or, or somebody else gets a benefit that you thought you deserved or whatever. And you start hearing these little voices like, oh, man, maybe I'm not as good as I [00:37:00] thought.
I was maybe this, maybe this. And and your relationship to how you orient to work changes. And you think, well, what does that mean now? And I think it's an opportunity to always go like, okay, well, what does that mean? Does it mean what I think it means? Am I placing so much value on this? But you're really right in the sense that, we need to be together.
We need to be around people who really, are our champions, or at the very least, aren't just pummeling us all day long about who we are and the value that we possess.
Kathy Washburn: Yes, and I, I see, the, the value in the workplace because there's so much where we feel like we've been, our dignity has been violated just by the cultural, you're a number on a piece of paper that, you know, makes you feel insignificant.
It's really a shift and it's not a heavy lift and it doesn't cost any money. That's the most [00:38:00] infuriating part about it. It's like, it doesn't, you've seen and experienced a good leader can see and acknowledge and highlight somebody's strength. Even if it's, whatever it is, I'm not, I'm not even going to give you a hierarchy of more important in the company, just because it doesn't matter.
As you said, it's you are a human being and I see you. And even if it's, I see that you're in pain or I see that. You're suffering in some way and how can I help you versus she's not doing her work. I'm going to send a note to HR to make sure that I've documented the fact that she's not doing her work, but what would it cost just to.
Ask, tell me, tell me what's happening in this moment for you.
Bob Fabey: Yeah, doesn't take anything. I think people are fearful. I don't think they, they're not sure they want to know [00:39:00] the answer because they're not sure they're equipped to be able to deal with what somebody might say. There's, there's a lot of reasons that people won't do that.
But I think if I asked, if, if I believed that part of my being human is to help other humans flourish. Yeah. That that can change that frame on pretty quickly. So it's like, well, what would it look like for me to help this person flourish? Well, you may not know. So you get to ask, you know, well, I want I want to be around people who are flourishing.
Is there something I can do to help that? This is a really easy question. And if you're a manager, if you're a leader of people, your team is only going to go as far as you lead them. So you, you need to be asking those kinds of questions. And I think, you know, right when you're saying kind of a cog in the wheel, or just a number, you know, there's a guilty pleasure of Bob's Confessions every time the movie Ben Hur from 1952 or [00:40:00] whatever it is on, as I watch it, right?
Because I don't know why, but I love that movie. And there's a scene where Charlton Essendon is on this they're on a ship and he's stuck as a slave and he's in the galley and he's rowing and the Romans are just brutal and they're making them row and this, this guy just says, Hey, listen, we keep you alive to serve this ship, row well, and you will live.
That's it. And I think that's how some people try to lead. That's, that's what happens at workplaces. And I think you, you will get, you will get results. And you, you may not like some of the results that you've done. And so, know, I would hope that. Workplaces are waking up to the fact that that they're dealing with human beings.
Again, people in leadership, you know, I think would you want to be treated that way? No, you wouldn't. Or they would say, well, you know, that's how the upper levels treat me. So that's how I got to treat you. No, it isn't. Everybody gets to make a decision about how we behave. [00:41:00] So I do have hope, you know, that, that as we, as we press into dignity, as we think about it, and as we consider our own, that we can see the person next to us.
And our job isn't to try to make a wholesale change of the entire, you know, United States and then the world and all those things. Although, I think it would be great. I think my job is to, when I interact with another human being, whether it's my spouse or my kids, somebody at the grocery store, that's my moment.
When I catch myself thinking thoughts that aren't true about who I am, that's my moment. And that those, those moments, maybe they're just little tiny glimmers in the dark, or maybe, maybe they're not, but that they matter. And I think, I think if enough of us can, can, can press into that kind of thing there'll be a little more light in the dark, a little, a little easier for people to find their way, a little, a little more hope displayed.
Thank you. and I'm, I'm for that I'm for [00:42:00] living that way, I think it's in my Ted, Ted talk, you know, Ted, Ted wants to spread good ideas, you know, or great ideas, and I think I said, you know, this is a great idea. I think dignity is a great idea, but it's it's not just a great idea.
It's a life worth living. I can't think of another way to do it. And I can't think of a more meaningful way to do it either.
Kathy Washburn: I'm just allowing, I would just allow everybody to hear that one more time. And I would love to end it on that note because that's such A precious way to live, and I think there still needs to be more, some, some more distinction, you know, some people might say, well, I respect, I have a level of respect for other humans.
It's deeper than that. Can you make a difference? Because I feel like there, there's. It's a choice to do a little more than respect somebody. It is.
Bob Fabey: I, I, respect is behavior based. It's based on the word that means to look back [00:43:00] upon. So, so respect is to, to reflect on something or to look at something and consider it.
And so I can respect somebody's behavior. I can respect somebody's office. So you're the CEO. I will respect the fact that you're the CEO and your character may be deeply flawed, and I don't agree with your behavior. That's you do not owe anyone respect. No one owes you respect. Zero. You have to earn respect.
So respect is behavior based. So if somebody respects you, it's because they look back on your behavior, how you've treated them, and what you've done, and they say, I admire that thing over there, and I can respect that. Again, it's the identity and behavior piece that we pull apart, where I can say, I have a ton of respect for people who serve as the President of the United States.
I would never want that job. That is, There's no way I would want that job. That doesn't mean that I agree with all of the behavior of the people who have sat in that chair. I can say that clearly without any [00:44:00] hesitation. I can say that about senators. I can say that about mayors. I can say that about bosses.
I respect, like, I mean, you think about moms, it's like, man. What's up, you know? And so I could say, I have a lot of respect for mom. That doesn't mean I agree with all their behavior. And so nobody has to respect me. That is, I do not ever insist on that or any of those things. But, what I will do is I will treat people with dignity regardless of how they behave.
So, again, I mean, pick the lowest of the low. I mean, it doesn't matter who it is. If there's somebody who's behaving in an undignified manner, maybe they. they're homeless and they're addicted to drugs and alcohol or, or they're, I mean, I don't know. I don't have to respect their addiction that way, but I can say, man, I know you are uniquely created to function in a really important way in this world and I'm going to treat you like that versus, oh, you're a [00:45:00] crackhead or something like that.
So respect and identity are very, very different. And they're important distinctions because people will often say, well, they'll talk about dignity and they'll talk about respect. And I'm like, Nope, that's lost. So, and I mean, and if you think about it, you know, when, the minute that somebody asked for respect or says, you, you must respect me, they've lost it, whatever happened.
If you have to insist on it, you're never going to get it. So the reason people respect people is usually because they behaved in a way that they value highly and they go, no, man, that. That person really deserves our respect. You know, so we think about I think about veterans of wars served in the military.
I don't agree with all of our military interventions. I have a great deal of respect for people who are willing to do that. I mean, thank you so much. That means a lot. I don't agree with all the police and. I really respect the fact that there are people who are willing to go. And do things that I would, I would hate to have to do.
And so I boil it down to a person [00:46:00] behaving a way instead of trying to lump. You know, Oh, all politicians, all lawyers, all police, all, you know, white people, all it doesn't matter to me. It's like, those things simply aren't true. It's a lazy, it's a flabby way of thinking about life. Really bugs me.
And it's like, no, but that person's behavior, I can say, Nope, not. Okay. We don't, that's not a. That's not a dignified way to behave. So really, really critical distinction. , I'm glad you I'm glad you =mentioned.=
Kathy Washburn: I think it's so important because we often and again, if you peel the respect off, I love the idea of that's often kind of a look behind where you're assessing.
Somebody's behavior and realize, you know, dignity is a human right, circling back on, on what you had shared the seeds of dignity, that idea of, you know, first responders, they don't, there's no questioning. There's no, [00:47:00] somebody's worth. And I think of 9 11 and just the extraordinary things that happened.
Because of dignity, because of the value of a human. Life that was lost and that existed, like there was a sense of dignity in our country that just resonated. I don't think anybody called it that, but that was what was happening. And then I was sharing with my partner this weekend, this time that I was in San Francisco, where I, I walked on this beautiful beach.
It was somewhere near San Francisco in the evening. It was lovely. Had this beautiful walk, captured the pictures of the sunset, went back to my hotel, and I got up really early to go walk on the beach in the morning. And what I saw was just so shocking. There were police people on ATVs with huge [00:48:00] speakers, and there were homeless people sleeping all along the beach.
And they were screaming at them through these. Speaker things and it looked to me like they were kind of kicking them. But the most disturbing start of the morning was I went to leave the hotel and there was a homeless person. Laying flat on their face on the sidewalk and I, I went to go out of the revolving door and I stopped and I tried to go backwards in the revolving door to go get help.
I go out there and I'm like, are you okay? And then I come, I go rushing back in and the receptionist was typing at the terminal and I said, excuse me, there's a person out here. And she said, he's fine. Just step over him. Didn't even. Look at me. Didn't even lift your eyes. And I thought, Oh, this is so disturbing.
I, I am so, and then I went to the beach. I came back and just thought, I feel like I'm in a really bad, scary [00:49:00] movie right now are helping people. Professions that somehow got numbed to, to not see the dignity in another human. Is that fair to say?
Bob Fabey: A hundred percent. I think so. The, the idea that you are in a profession where dignity is violated consistently.
Causes you to then be numb. I've dealt with, I don't know how many officers of the law who are hardened toward people because of the fact that they deal with people at their worst, like their worst. They're not seeing people at their best and it's easy then for them to say, or for some of them to say this is what human beings are like.
And, and, and there's, so there's multiple layers of, of this when you think about it, what is going on systemically that's allowing people to live in squalor? [00:50:00] Where's the dignity there? Where's the dignity for, for them to even live in the way that they're living, let alone then be, you know, subjected to you know, megaphones on the beach first thing in the morning.
I mean, so, so I look at it like, There's behavior upon behavior behind, there's multiple layers where you just go, Hey, is this the most dignified way that we can care for people? And if it isn't, can we, can we ask a different set of questions? And, and so to the police officer, I would say, You know, what does this feel like, what does it mean to you that that this is what I saw that's got to feel terrible.
I would imagine that nobody wants that job to the, to the front desk person. they've seen it so much, or maybe that particular person. And it's like, man, what's it like for you to see that every day? And then, you know, there's a, there's a thing and I think I talk about it in the book and I talk about it with everybody that I, you know, I sit with.
But I say MRI, you know, what is the most [00:51:00] respectful interpretation I can have with this behavior? and ask that question and try to answer it honestly, like, I'm not sure I have 1. I don't want to see if I can get there. But, but also like, There's usually so much more to what we're seeing than what we're seeing.
and so those, those moments of pain, you know, I, yeah, I try to sit with them and say, man, this hurts really bad. I mean, we, so similar story. We're in Hawaii. We're in a, like a, a restaurant bar. You know, it's gentle breeze, gorgeous evening, sun's going down, they're playing somewhere over the rainbow by, by, you know, the famous Hawaiian who, who sings a song and I see this homeless man.
And he's, he's basically just laying on his face on the ground and I was like, you know, I'm in this unbelievably beautiful scene, you know, and then there's this and I, and I sat there and in my, I mean, so I was, I was praying Lord, I'm not sure what to do here. as the scene was playing out, I'll never forget this, this car pulls up and this [00:52:00] guy gets out, he has a bunch of water.
And he goes up to the guy and he sits down next to him and he gives him this water and they start talking and I can't, you know, I'm a long ways away. I can't see what's going on. But I was, I was so blessed by that. I was so grateful because it's like, here's humanity. maybe behaving in a really poor way that would prove.
Produce somebody living on the streets in Hawaii. I don't know who knows why they were there. But then it was also like, look, there's also humanity, coming to the aid of a fellow brother and sister and and behaving in a dignified way. And so I have to believe that for every incredible violation of dignity that I see that there is, there are people and there is dignity that's being validated.
And that the people are, are actually behaving in very dignified ways. Maybe that I can't see. And I, and so I I'm determined to try to be one of those people, what, what, whatever that looks like. I don't know all the time, but, but I think, yeah, that's, that's who I want to be like, for whatever difference it may or may not make.
That, that's how I want to behave. That's, that's how I [00:53:00] want to live.
Kathy Washburn: And I believe you do. I've witnessed that myself and I've heard some other stories. I was going to ask you in times of conflict or disagreement.
Kathy Washburn: How do you help individuals maintain their dignity and I'm going to answer it just I'm going to answer it just from what I heard you say and I want you to also answer it in times of disagreement and conflict, which I believe is my observation of somebody else behaving in a poor way.
Maybe I can, the most dignified way to deal with a person I'm in conflict with is to MRI the situation and find the most respectful interpretation of that behavior. And if I can't. Intuit that or find it in my own way. I can ask for it.
Bob Fabey: Yes. [00:54:00] So I don't know if you're familiar with intent and impact but that's a training that I've done with, with teams where, where you say, here's your intent, this is what you mean to have happen.
And here's the impact of what you did. and again, that goes back to the idea that we judge ourselves by our motive, our, our motivations, but others by their behavior. So. A lot of times in conflict, you know, there, it's a misunderstanding and somebody saying, well, I thought this and I did this and then somebody says, yeah, well, you, you were wrong and that really sucked.
And so there's conflict and you go, okay, well, how can we get to the bottom of this? Well. Conflict is a slippery slope that has to be done really well. I think that if you, if you want to be dignified in, in. In addressing conflict, I think what that means is 1, you have to have an MRI. So what's the best.
What's the most respectful way I can think about this. I do a three strike rule in my own personal kind of way that I think about it. First strike is like, yeah, it's going to happen. I'm with, I'm with other human beings. Second strike, I go, yeah, it's maybe coincidence, but no problem. Third [00:55:00] strike, I say, that's a conversation.
So if something's happened three times, then I'd say, Hey I, I noticed this and I, I probably won't say you've done this three times and I haven't said anything. But, or just like I've noticed this and I was wondering if we could talk about it. and then, you know, try to have a conversation about, but people are very fearful.
And and they will respond in in kind. So, a lot of times people will bite back or they'll, they'll think, you know, like, hey, you're coming at me or that's aggressive. And especially now, where people really don't know how to deal with conflict. So 1 is, to. Before the situation, you know, kind of observe where you're at.
Think about it clearly and just say, hey, am I afraid to have this conversation? If I am, what am I afraid of? Try to have try to have that own, you know, kind of interior dialogue, but then also, like, recognize that the person sitting across from you is a full human being. They're, they're a mom, a daughter, a husband, a brother, sister, they, they have their own story.
You're playing one role in their [00:56:00] story. You don't know if they're, if you're the villain, if you're the hero, you have no idea what role you're playing in their story. And so they may be viewing you a certain way. And you just say, Hey, I just, I want to be able to talk with you about what I've, what I've seen.
And maybe you can help me understand better about what I'm seeing. This is the way that I'm interpreting what you're seeing. Is this incorrect? and let people tell you, no, you're, you're totally right. I think you're a jerk and I don't want to be around you. Okay. Well, thank you for clarifying. Or, or they say, no, that's not it at all.
And they say, I'm, I'm sorry that I viewed that the wrong way. Can you help me? I mean, humility has to be there. I think if you're going to address conflict like that. And humility, I mean, I, I will never forget this definition. I really cling to, but it's where we get the word humus. So humus is the decomposing matter from, you know, like, if you're in the jungle and the things die and they follow the ground and then there's this stuff called humus and it's where this, it's like [00:57:00] a rich subsoil that, that other things can grow in.
And so humility means that if I can die to myself in a healthy way, then, then someone else can flourish. Something, something else can flourish. If I insist on my own way, well, then, you know, the ground is going to be hard. But, but if I can say, how can I be humble? How have I contributed to this problem?
What are some ways that I can think about this differently? Then we actually allow parts of ourselves to die that maybe need to die. It's like, you know, ego or pride sometimes might not be so good, but not all that is always bad, and then as those things die that you actually provide an environment for something else beautiful to grow.
That's a prerequisite, I think, to trying to deal with with conflict. I think there's dignity in acknowledging your own hurt. I think, I think the ability to say, I'm really upset. I'm really feeling pain about this. I'm unhappy with how you treated me. There's, there's dignity there where you recognize this has been violated.
This is, I believe [00:58:00] this is true about me. And yet this thing has happened. So it's a multifaceted thing. I think when you, when you start thinking about conflict. And that's, that's interpersonal conflict, conflict that you have within yourself. But then there's managing conflict between two other people.
That's another that's another issue. and how you go about that is really important. So dignity plays a role in that. And I would say the best. I would say, actually, the expert in many ways on dignity, and especially as it comes to conflict, this is Professor Donna Hicks.
Donna wrote, she wrote the book, Dignity, the Surprising Role it Plays in Conflict, and she worked with Archbishop Desmond Tutu, and worked in Northern Ireland, as well as I think it was in the Middle East, really, really difficult spaces and talked about what so that's where dignity violations and validations come from.
And then she wrote another book called meeting with dignity. And so her research, I think, is especially in the area of conflict. [00:59:00] It's the gold standard. Anybody who's listening to this and wants to know about how to, how to behave in conflict, please read Donna Hicks work. It's phenomenal.
Kathy Washburn: Thank you for that.
And I know that it has a lot of roots in your work. I see that you've referenced it several times in your book. and again, I hear over and over this sense that even dealing with others or in resolving conflict and self, like, it is this. Understanding on a deep level, that sense of dignity that I matter, my, my needs matter and, until I realized that when I'm in conflict and, and not.
Dying to myself, like not, not doing that process before to allow that rich soil to happen in relationship.
Kathy Washburn: So dignity, it's I think we could talk for several more hours about this and I have a [01:00:00] feeling we'll be talking again because there's a lot coming up. I have one last question to ask you.
Bob Fabey: Yeah.
Kathy Washburn: If I were to crush your essence up and put you in pill form, what effect would you have on someone taking that pill?
Bob Fabey: I think they would go
Tastes like polish irish man I I'm going to choose to validate my own dignity. Okay. And this is not easy. So I will, I will enter into what I say, that I believe people have told me that they feel heard and valued understood and that they matter. And so I'm really grateful for that.
And those that those words have have meaning. That's how I would want people to feel. And that's how they've told me that they feel. When they've spent time with me, and so I'm really grateful for that. And that, that would be, and I would [01:01:00] also say, I would, I would hope they have a sense of peace.
There's something in the world that people are lacking sorely. There is a sense of peace that comes from being with someone who's willing to do, do both truth and grace. And I, and I hope to be that person.
Kathy Washburn: I've taken that pill from the, the moment I met you, we were in this little room and I was practicing.
And I was trying to do it by memory, and I was stumbling, tripping, and stumbling, tripping, and And you, I did not, I didn't know you from a hole in the wall, but you had some veteran status on the, on the speaking stage and you just had such a calm, peaceful manner about, about you and you looked right at me and you were giving me, you were giving me Some little pieces of advice, which told me you really, you really did see me
Bob Fabey: and it
Kathy Washburn: was, I think, [01:02:00] instrumental and me being able to actually step on that stage the next day and do what I needed to do.
And we had a couple of conversations after that, but I've definitely been in that presence where I felt like I mattered and it brought me a grand sense of peace. So, thank you.
Bob Fabey: Happy to hear that. Yeah.
Kathy Washburn: This has been so rich. I will include all your contact information, including this delightful book that I would highly recommend to anybody.
Especially if you're dealing with diversity and inclusion issues in your workplace, either on the receiving end or trying to lift up others in that space in the land of dignity. Thank you so much, Bob. Fun
Bob Fabey: to be here, Kathy. Thanks.
Thank you so much for your gift of time and for tuning into the Investment of Self Type C Transformation podcast. Make sure to check out the show notes for this episode [01:03:00] at kathywashburn. net backslash podcast and give us a follow on Instagram at kathywashburn dot net. If you liked this episode, make sure to follow Investment of Self Type C Transformation.
And if you feel so moved, I would love a response. Review. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, I wish you well.