Ep. 45 - The Art of Writing: Embodying Authenticity and Finding Connection in Your Stories with Lisa Weinert

[00:00:00] Kathy Washburn: Today we are talking with Elisa Weinert. She is the founder of Narrative Healing, a Mind Body Writing 

[00:00:07] Lisa Weinert: Program that is a beautiful amalgamation of her life experiences. I. Lisa grew up in a 

[00:00:14] Kathy Washburn: world of words from a childhood where storytelling 

[00:00:17] Lisa Weinert: was her currency to working in the publishing industry. 

[00:00:21] Kathy Washburn: We talk about how writing became healing for her, the role her body played in 

[00:00:26] that 

[00:00:26] Lisa Weinert: process, and how a writing practice can become a catalyst for personal 

[00:00:31] Kathy Washburn: integration.

[00:00:32] Kathy Washburn: Her new book, 

[00:00:33] Lisa Weinert: narrative Healing, awaken The Power of Your Story is Hot off the press, and she offers us to a little peek of what's inside. I've had the beautiful experience of Lisa's narrative healing program, and I'm so excited to share her insights. Her passion and grace invite us to invest in a practice of writing that opens the door to our authentic selves.

[00:00:57] Lisa Weinert: Enables us to be a healing agent for ourselves and those we have the honor to influence in our lives. May this podcast be a catalyst for you to become the better version of you just bursting 

[00:01:11] Kathy Washburn: to step forward.

[00:01:12] 

[00:01:50] Kathy Washburn: Hello, Lisa Weinert. It's so exciting to have you here. I feel like I'm on a show with the stars.

[00:02:01] Lisa Weinert: Well, the feeling is mutual. I'm very happy to be here. 

[00:02:04] Kathy Washburn: Mm. I I still remember vividly about five days that I spent with you in 2019. In a program called Narrative Healing, where yourself and you gathered some amazing humans, both on the speaker level and the, the, my peers that I was there with, that I still have relationships with that were, I'm happy to hear that, that week this, this idea of narrative healing.

[00:02:36] Kathy Washburn: I remember the moment that I saw the Kripalu flyer and I opened and I thought narrative healing. Wow. I don't know what that means, but I think that's what I need. And it was right after the end of my divorce after being married for 25 years and I retired and I was just kind of flailing in the wind and that narrative healing just felt like the answer.

[00:03:06] Kathy Washburn: So I went and spent five days with you, and I'm so excited because now you've formed that whole thing in book form, which makes it so accessible to so many people. And we'll talk about your process in the next hour, but I'd like to know if there's anything you'd like to add. You can introduce yourself, your bio is available, but what are you doing right now?

[00:03:28] Kathy Washburn: What are you bringing into the world? 

[00:03:30] Lisa Weinert: Well, Kathy, I'm so happy to be here and I'm really honored to be here. And that was such a special group. It was one of the last live programs before the pandemic, and I reflect a lot about what's changed and what's remained the same in terms of the program, the offering.

[00:03:44] Lisa Weinert: I mean, the big news is that my book, which I'll hold up right now, it came out like just days ago. Like, that's what's going on. So since then I've really been working on this book primarily driven by what you expressed of being able to reach. People beyond like my arm's length and finding that this work had been so deeply transformative and life changing for me.

[00:04:05] Lisa Weinert: And when I shared it, it seemed to have the same impact on people around me. I think, you know, we'll get into this, but just quickly in terms of my background that feels relevant here, is that well, I don't, I always say this 'cause feels very important. I'm a born and raised New Yorker and I'm one of five, and I'm from a very like, storytelling, artistic chaotic, loving, intellectual family.

[00:04:27] Lisa Weinert: And I grew up with an understanding that I really needed to tell my story in order to like get heard and survive. And I very naturally pursued a career in publishing. I worked in corporate publishing for really 10 to 15 years, depending on how you count it, and really discovered by way of an acute medical crisis in my life that storytelling as I knew it, as a cerebral intellectual experience, was greatly limited in terms of like my ability to access my authentic voice when I was caught up in fight or flight or fear or freeze, or any kind of big emotional reaction.

[00:05:05] Lisa Weinert: And I really devoted myself to studying yoga and mindfulness meditations and all kinds of more mind body approaches to listening to the stories in the body. And that's where this, this program came from. 

[00:05:20] Kathy Washburn: That's a beautiful place to start because you are part of my morning writing ritual in that my practice was built in 2019 during our time together.

[00:05:31] Kathy Washburn: And I can't help but every single morning hear Madonna's voice that says, let me hear your body talk. Hmm. I go through this process where I sit in my chair, I feel my feet on the ground. Oh, nice. I have this energy starting from the feet that I learned In your session, and there's this one thing that just has stuck with me forever is imagining there are nostrils on the front of my heart and I'm breathing into my heart, and then I can move the nostrils somewhere else where I need to breathe.

[00:06:03] Kathy Washburn: That was a really powerful experience and as well as this idea of wherever my body was touching the ground, imagining the stories as chords that were going into the ground and being able to like just let that go and let my body just rest. And you did so much with restorative yoga. That helps.

[00:06:27] Kathy Washburn: Mm-hmm. Open the body. And in your book, I was really so fascinated and it validated for me your reflection about the earlier years when you had that deep commitment to yoga practice, but that the practice was separate from your writing. And I could so relate to that. You wrote of that time. I think the important work of writing comes from my mind and my body exists to do things for me when it's well, and it's something to tolerate when it's unwell.

[00:07:02] Kathy Washburn: How did you shift from that thought process to this new understanding of this synergy of the two the importance that your body has in that role of writing? 

[00:07:13] Lisa Weinert: Yeah. Thanks so much for reflecting that on all of it. It's really, it's wonderful to hear much that resonated and you know, just for listeners, some of the practices are really visual like that, and some, some aren't.

[00:07:23] Lisa Weinert: I often teach the, the nostril as a way of or an ear to the body, but sometimes I use technology like a microphone or a tape recorder. You know, it's different things work for different people and some things just don't work. So I really, as I started working on this book it became really clear to me.

[00:07:41] Lisa Weinert: How you know, my, my number one priority with the book is that it's welcoming, inclusive, it has many options. And so I just wanna say that upfront, like if anything we're talking about or any of these particular practices don't resonate. There's, there's many others in the, the idea, I think to do like as many as possible to find one that works.

[00:07:59] Lisa Weinert: In terms of listening to my body, it was not a thinking process and it wasn't a seeking process. My body literally woke me up. And I think a lot of us experienced this kind of opportunity to change in some way of saying it when we're in a lot of pain. And I was in a ton of pain. I was recovering from really traumatic like a medical trauma on top of like an awareness, beginning of an awareness of just like collective trauma.

[00:08:27] Lisa Weinert: I had been carrying from all sorts of other things throughout my life, both internally and externally. And when your body is, you know, there's, there's moments in life where you have a willingness and a clarity to slow down enough to pay attention. And I think I was a particularly stubborn student in that way.

[00:08:46] Lisa Weinert: And I was just gonna keep going and keep going and try different kinds of yoga that I was gonna run a half marathon, I was gonna try this and cleanses and I, I was very eager to. Try different things outside of me, but at the moment where what you're talking about realizing I hadn't listened to my body.

[00:08:59] Lisa Weinert: I was really immobilized by my body. My body was not doing for me what I wanted it to do. I was sick and depressed and in pain and unclear and feeling very isolated. So the feelings became much more powerful than any intellectual pursuit. And so the learning about how it all worked happened later out of an interest understand better.

[00:09:25] Lisa Weinert: Like how did this feeling happen and what is this about? And so following that, I really immersed myself probably for the first time maybe ever, and definitely since I was a child, into being a student and to let go of. Being in charge or telling anybody how to do it, but getting like little inklings of like, what did you say about stories in the body?

[00:09:46] Lisa Weinert: Let me learn about that. What did you say about like, science behind writing, being like a very strong medicine. Let me learn about that. So like, following my known experience in my body with learning more about it, how it worked from kind of like scholars and elders and teachers. 

[00:10:03] Kathy Washburn: That's just a, such a gentle and graceful way back.

[00:10:07] Kathy Washburn: For me I had, you know, similar experiences, trauma medical health, and I, it's interesting because when I first started feeling this dis-ease, I too went to yoga. Got certified to be a teacher. Immersed myself in it and my physical body was so strong. Yeah. That when I was diagnosed with cancer, I was like, how could that happen?

[00:10:33] Kathy Washburn: How could that happen? I'm in the best shape I've ever been in all of my life. And even the doctors would say, other than cancer, you're a healthy young woman. And I thought, how can that be? What they really were saying is, or what I've come to understand, like you in hindsight, is physically I was really strong, but mentally it was an absolute shit show going on in there.

[00:10:59] Kathy Washburn: One that I kept so inside of myself and covered with this big toothy smile, like, everything's good. Yeah. I got it all. Don't you worry, I can do all that and No, I'll do that too. That people pleasing. Yeah. Repression of my own needs, emotions for and actually becoming so others directed that I only felt through other people.

[00:11:29] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. It's that really, it's the, the dark side of being an empath, you know, really being able to take another's emotions and contort myself around them. That's how I started to feel. So it was just a complete disconnection from who I was inside and realizing those two things, when they don't work well together is such a, I mean, creates a dis-ease, disconnection.

[00:12:00] Kathy Washburn: With self, which then creates disconnection with the people that we love around us, which we're trying so hard to gain. It's like this negative loop. And I, I'm so fascinated by this repression as a behavior pattern or the stuffing of emotions I've come to realize that this puts us at risk for disease, because it really plays a number on our immune system. Mm-hmm. And that is this whole type C. Awareness that I'm trying to bring is just like a type A is prone to cardiac disease so they can make changes.

[00:12:39] Kathy Washburn: A type C is prone to cancer and they too can make changes and it involves this healthy being able to healthily emote. And I really believe your program is that threshold for people to enter into that work because it starts with just you, yourself and you, you writing down on a page what's happening inside you.

[00:13:07] Kathy Washburn: And I'm just wondering, what is it about writing that creates that broken opening to healing that you've witnessed both in yourself and countless others by the work, the way that you do it. And can you talk about the research behind this idea that amplifies. Writing as a healing modality. 

[00:13:33] Lisa Weinert: Yeah, definitely.

[00:13:34] Lisa Weinert: Before in terms of the division between like the stories in the mind and the story and the, and the body that say that just have a little more compassion for, for us in terms of this experience we had that was like, oh my God, I have a body.

[00:13:45] Lisa Weinert: I didn't, it's that how we're taught, right? Like the, the as in western culture, it's established, you know, until very recently that the mind body are like completely separate, right? So it sounds so crazy to imagine that. 'cause there's like, we're completely connected of course, but we, I was raised that way.

[00:14:02] Lisa Weinert: My entire education is that way. The culture that I'm in is that way. I grew up in a capitalist patriarchal society. I grew up in New York City, so we're, we're really primed that way. And at no point in my education when I was studying literature or writing, did anyone ever say. You have a body, you know, and or as, as a, even as a mover, you know, you think about like dancers use their body as an instrument or athletes do, but you don't think about the writing body.

[00:14:31] Lisa Weinert: So it's a sort of simple idea, but it's very radical because we're just not taught that way. So I have, you know, when I think about walking around thinking that all the, all the stories are in my mind that I have such a visualization of me at my like corner office, you know, in midtown Manhattan when I was working in a publicity department at a major corporate publisher, and there was just all these piles and piles of books and it was all happening in here and.

[00:14:59] Lisa Weinert: I probably wasn't breathing. I probably, you know, I was definitely not taking good care of my body and I just made up for it by like running to yoga or running to do this thinking that like, that balanced me somehow. It was just mm-hmm. It was really just the branding of it more than anything. So I wanted to put out, out there that we're, we're kind of results of, of the culture that we're from.

[00:15:20] Lisa Weinert: And that's another reason that we're, we're sort of, and there's a lot of science that, that shows that the mind and body are completely connected now by major, major, like accredit institutions that everybody values like Harvard and whatnot. So that's to put sort of that reality out there. And in terms of the, the writing experience being like a sacred space of, of self-exploration is so ancient, right?

[00:15:49] Lisa Weinert: Going back to like, this is the way that we've always communicated, like writing is sort of one of the main things that separates humans from. Any other creature out there. And that storytelling by nature, I think is one way of defining what it means to be human. As human beings, we are social creatures.

[00:16:10] Lisa Weinert: And the way that we express our socialization with each other is through stories. It's just kind of a part of our biology. And when I say stories in this context, I'm really talking about how we're expressing our emotional body. Mm-hmm. And so with our body, we express it through movement and maybe through desire and temperature and pain and discomfort or pleasure or whatever a kind of bodily experiences we're having.

[00:16:39] Lisa Weinert: And we use words and writing, I think primarily 'cause it's a really convenient way to reach more people. So that's sort of my, my experience of it in terms of why we do it and how we do it with other people. And in terms of the writing, a lot of my own experience, and I think a lot of people that I've had the honor of working with are you know, self-defined introverts, like highly, highly sensitive, not in sort of the diagnosed way, but just very sensitive creatures in this world may be undergoing a big emotional transformation due to any number of things.

[00:17:16] Lisa Weinert: And it could be something really big like illness or life changes. It could be sort of a season where we're every life is, you know, a series of changes and writing can be a way of slowing down. For me, my writing practice in a way is a restorative practice because when I pause to write, it's a way I have to slow my thoughts down enough to get them down on the page.

[00:17:42] Lisa Weinert: And that in and of itself can be relaxing. And it, it forces me to create some shape around the experience I'm having. So from a very young age, until, you know, today, writing is a way of reflecting back to me like who I am, how I'm feeling, how I'm experiencing the world, and, and, and slowing down with it.

[00:18:03] Lisa Weinert: And I think that functions in a bodily way, similar to a meditation practice or restorative practice, or a walking practice or whatever your personal practice is. I don't think it has to be writing. Writing has just been my primary way. And for a lot of people I work with, I, one person I've worked with in particular who talks about, you know, there's times I think especially during acute trauma or highly sensitive moments in life where it can be the only way we're able to communicate.

[00:18:34] Lisa Weinert: It's like too big of an ask to say something out loud. So it allows you that privacy, that kind of in-between space where you're still starting to socialize, but you're doing it in your own terms. So I think that's, you know, I'm curious for you as a writer, what your, what your experience 

[00:18:53] Kathy Washburn: is there. Yes. I, you know, I've, like you, I've used my words in journals since I was really little as a way to emote because emoting wasn't really safe as a child.

[00:19:06] Kathy Washburn: I grew up in a very unmotive house. Yeah. And I was a very emotional child, so a little hard for my parents to take because I was feeling all the time. And that got really shut down. But I found my ability to express those feelings in a journal or in a diary. Yeah. And so that was a practice from a very young age for me to, I.

[00:19:29] Kathy Washburn: And I love the idea, this idea of expressing your emotional body. I've never thought about it that way, but that really was my only outlet to exp. I think I probably would've exploded if I wasn't, if I didn't have that. I relate to that, that ability. And as time went on, I think sometimes my writing was more for other people or, you know, in the investment world I did a lot of writing.

[00:19:58] Kathy Washburn: So, and it was in the typewriter and my friend and I kind of go back and forth. I think it's crucial that people write with a, an instrument on paper versus Okay. Typewriter. I would love to know your thoughts about that. Because I think as the expression of an emotion, I don't know, there's something that comes from your heart, down your hand, out of your fingers.

[00:20:23] Kathy Washburn: It maybe that's typing. I don't know. 

[00:20:26] Lisa Weinert: you know, there used to be compelling, ev I hear you. And for me that's true. I really enjoy writing by hand most of the time. But over the years as I've taught this, I've really worked with a lot of people that that's not the true for them. I think writing by hand actually can cause a lot of anxiety for some people, I think, especially younger people who haven't grown up writing interest by hand.

[00:20:49] Lisa Weinert: And it's really, it's not comfortable or if you have any limitations or, or ability wise or illness wise or anything. So I basically think any way that works for you to tell your story is the right way and that what's important is that you go through some practice to feel regulated in your body so that you're expressing yourself from a regulated or grounded, let's say, place.

[00:21:18] Lisa Weinert: And that you feel as much as you're able to at the moment, like safe while you're doing it. I think that's the way to have the most meaningful impact from it. And I really encourage people to use whatever writing instrument they want. And that's something that's changed for me. I used to say that and then I had, I learned from working with people that that was, that was just not their truth.

[00:21:39] Lisa Weinert: Mm, 

[00:21:39] Kathy Washburn: that's a really good point. What I wanna kind of harken back to what you were saying about kind of moving this emotion. Or expressing this emotion outside of our body. One of my favorite lines in your book is we are all moving bodies of stories. Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, and I'm, I work with positive psychology, so I understand the negativity bias is real, so we pay a lot of attention to the noisy ones.

[00:22:13] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. But there's many more that are very, very quiet, that are very, very powerful and maybe sleeping. Can you tell us why we would want to wake those old stories and why not just keep adding to the library of me, like just keep building versus really tap into those old frozen frightened stories?

[00:22:41] Lisa Weinert: Because I love the way you phrased that. And thank you for reading the book so closely. I, I wanna zoom out a little bit to answer that because mm-hmm. I wanna go back to this idea that we tell stories because we're social creatures and that our stories are essentially extensions of our nervous system.

[00:22:58] Lisa Weinert: And what I mean is, is that our nervous system. So then going back, our nervous system has basically one function, which is to keep us safe and alive. So we tell stories and connect with our bodies in order to literally know where to go, know who to talk to, know what to say, know what not to say, so that we can survive and then thrive and connect with others.

[00:23:19] Lisa Weinert: Experience joy, be wholehearted and live. The way we're meant to to live. Whether that means like don't cross the street that there's a car coming at you or write really what your authentic voice is telling you. I think on a nervous system level, it's the same process really. And so if you are only listening to the loudest, most like shrieky parts of you and what, I wanna break that down to the parts that are really in a fight or flight, probably.

[00:23:46] Lisa Weinert: 'cause they're the ones that are really, really loud. Like, don't go that way. You are actually depriving yourself of all the other parts of you that probably have also not probably, they definitely have also like lifesaving, life affirming creative missions. There's no story in our body, there's no part of us in my experience and opinion that's like there for no reason.

[00:24:13] Lisa Weinert: You know, like all of ourselves, all of our organs are all working together to basically, I mean, maybe our pinky toe, like there's star parts of us that like, you know, had more, these, the earlier parts. But our stories inside of us need to be expressed in order to help us and help each other because that's who we are as, as human beings.

[00:24:31] Lisa Weinert: So the purpose of this is to really know ourselves so that we can live as we are, we're, you know, I don't think that it's evolutionarily speaking or when we're in like a really grounded place that we only hear the screening parts. That's usually when we are really freaking out in some way. And I think, you know, in terms of the nervous system response, and I break it down in the book, and you, you know more about this probably than I do, you know, fight, flight, freeze or fonts.

[00:25:04] Lisa Weinert: You might be screaming, trying to flee. You might also be in that, like, people pleasing flattery place, which I identify very strongly with from like a kind of corporate culture and all the other ways I grew up that you might allowed a story might be like, what are you feeling? You know, how are you, how can I help you?

[00:25:21] Lisa Weinert: Instead of how am I feeling? You know? And we don't, we can't make thoughtful, wholehearted decisions about any part of our life, including our creative life if we're cutting ourselves off from, from most of ourselves. Hmm. I think that's one way of answering 

[00:25:38] Kathy Washburn: that. I love that. I love that way. And it, it opens up a little door to and I, I'm gonna ask you at the end to go through each, you know, tell us what the six stages are.

[00:25:52] Kathy Washburn: But one stage that was so crucial to me during my time with you and the program was the connection. Phase. Yeah. So you created the most magical, safe space for me to, to write, like you started with a yoga practice. It was a very restorative opening. And then you invited us to write. So it's like my, you limbed up my body.

[00:26:22] Kathy Washburn: I was, I felt safe in the place. And I wrote this story that I had never shared about my experience of radiation that I went through and I had stage four vulvar cancer. So radiation was lying naked on a metal table mm-hmm. With my legs splayed open and the, the radiation coming up through me.

[00:26:52] Kathy Washburn: But I wrote it about how humiliating it was because it's not humiliating enough as it was, but there was, I. The youngest, most handsome radiologist, 

[00:27:04] Lisa Weinert: of course, 

[00:27:04] Kathy Washburn: in all of the land, I'll never all of the land. Yeah, right. I, he came out, I had a woman radiologist, but the person that I was gonna work with for 35 visits was this really handsome, same age as me.

[00:27:18] Kathy Washburn: 34 years old. Yeah. And I just thought, oh my God, how could it get worse in this moment? And I remember completely disconnecting. I called the story the moment I ghosted my body. Hmm. Because that was the moment. It was that humiliating with this man walking my legs in this position, me completely naked. And I, it just was the, it was the way I.

[00:27:45] Kathy Washburn: I had to do that to survive in that moment, but it was still holding me in my body, you know? Yeah. 20 years later, I was still disconnected from that part of my body because that experience was so strong. So I wrote about it and it just came gushing outta me. But then you invited us to share our stories in these small circles, and I will never forget the looks on these people's faces.

[00:28:15] Kathy Washburn: Just the absolute grace, empathy, warmth, and what that did in creating these bonds that I still have today. It's just stunning to me how unlocking this piece that was so terrible and so traumatic that I had never spoken it out loud before, how freeing it was, but then to be witnessed, Yeah. And connect with other humans.

[00:28:44] Kathy Washburn: So it goes to what you're saying about the importance of the social element of, of emotionality as in sharing stories, but you, this is a crucial part of your process when you're going through this, is to be witnessed. I'm wondering, I I, I usually talk about, in my world, I kind of break people's support system into two groups.

[00:29:10] Kathy Washburn: Your ground crew, those people that have loved you into being, that have known you forever, that are, you know, you call at 2:00 AM with good news or bad, and then co-pilots, these people that don't really know you, you might meet in a workshop with Lisa. Mm-hmm. And you can be whatever version you're there to be and they're gonna help you fly.

[00:29:34] Kathy Washburn: So that co-piloting surrounding or finding those people, Where you can share those stories safely. I'm just wondering, like you talk about finding a chosen, trustworthy person I'm just wondering about this sharing part. 

[00:29:51] Lisa Weinert: Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for, for sharing that and bringing that back up. I really remember that moment. And I can guarantee you that you helped people in the room more than, than you were helped.

[00:30:02] Lisa Weinert: I guess there's two, there's like two parts that I wanna say now. First of all in terms of like walking through or moving through the program of narrative healing, the first half is really an internal process and what we were talking about before and like this writing and knowing what you're holding, and then you move into sharing with others and into the world.

[00:30:19] Lisa Weinert: And my goal here is not that like you must go through parts one through six and start sharing your story, and then you must share it with others. You absolutely do not, you like move into the book or this program, whatever manner is most impactful for you. I think all manners of sharing your story, beginning with, with yourself is extraordinarily beneficial from a medical, mental, emotional spiritual and creative perspective.

[00:30:48] Lisa Weinert: The, the part that you were, you were just sharing about just for, for, you know, listeners happen after you had already created safety within your body through this restorative practice that I might have like. But you practiced it, right? And you stood, sat with, lay down with your own stories, your breath and where you were.

[00:31:09] Lisa Weinert: And then you did some writing and, and chose to, to share that. And what else happened in the room that's really important is we did discuss a lot about the conditions for listening. Mm. And how people would listen with their, with their bodies. All of our bodies to listen. So there's always, there's options in how you, you do this and in terms, so I wanna just put, put that down as like a framework.

[00:31:34] Lisa Weinert: And I don't think all stories need to be shared publicly with others. I think all of our stories need to be expressed and shared and that our storytelling experience is a lot like our digestive experience. And so if you kind of like eat something and it doesn't pass through in some way, like you're sort of in trouble.

[00:31:52] Lisa Weinert: And I think the same is true with our, with our stories and. The reason I, I'm glad that you really focused in on choosing a trusted other, because that's probably, it's, it's one of the most important parts of the, the book to me. And I think this is, for me, at least in my experience with the most radical learning that I needed to learn how to share with like one trusted person before sharing with a big group.

[00:32:17] Lisa Weinert: And I think with our culture, maybe especially creatively, we have this so many times I'd start working with a group and everyone wants to write a book and none of them have written anything, you know? And like we, we think we have to go and distribute before we even know what we have to say. And so it's like a real, like, go big or go home, get the followers and like get the headline.

[00:32:37] Lisa Weinert: And that's our bodies and our tender stories really don't work that way, like from the beginning of time. And pretty much every single spiritual tradition and medical profession you can think of most profound healing happens one-on-one. And it happens because we can soak up the regulated energy of the other person.

[00:32:58] Lisa Weinert: One of my favorite and most influential writers in my life, RA men who wrote my grandmother's hands about embodied racism, talks about how he thinks most of his patients come to see him. Just to be, just to be in a room with a regulated body for about 45 minutes or 15 minutes. Because that's really the healing we offer each other as listeners, as healers, as therapists, as doctors, as friends.

[00:33:19] Lisa Weinert: And so when you had that experience, or I'll speak for myself, when I had the experience, which I write about in the book of sharing an experience that for me was a traumatic experience that I'd never told anyone out loud and I didn't think I really ever would with a friend, someone who could look at me as a peer and compassionate, like the way you are right now.

[00:33:40] Lisa Weinert: Sort of like smile and nod and not be like, oh my God. Or like, I'm gonna call the police or like whatever. Yeah. Like take some medicine, like, you know. It gave my body the sensation. And this is in some ways how narrative therapy works. Like the story I just told is, okay, I'm okay. It wasn't okay like when it happened, but who I am now mm-hmm.

[00:34:01] Lisa Weinert: Because the way, you know, just to put it, to simplify it a bit and we the way trauma can really start to harm us over time is a little bit what you were describing. We haven ant experienced and it gets stored in us. And so we remember it and it's, our body experiences it like it's happening now, now, now all the time.

[00:34:19] Lisa Weinert: When we get caught in this loop and it's very distracting, it's upsetting. It takes us off away from the present moment. So one of the ways of ultimately disrupting that pattern is to share it with someone in real time who can respond with compassion and love and without criticism. And that's why choosing the person is extremely important.

[00:34:43] Lisa Weinert: And I'll, I'll sort, I'll offer a study 'cause we haven't done a lot of that. But James Pema Baker, who's one of the main sort of like forefathers and parents of of, of looking at writing as a healing practice. He did, he, he talked a lot about writing as a form of healing from trauma, but one of the studies that he did, that's one of my personal favorites, is he had people, people would share, would write for like 15 to 20 minutes their trauma story.

[00:35:06] Lisa Weinert: It's no longer a thought that you have to write your trauma story in order to have the kind of experience that you shared. You could have shared a story of what you ate for breakfast. It's still your true story that you're sharing, which is vulnerable. But he had the group share their trauma story and one group shared it with another, with someone, and another group didn't share it with someone.

[00:35:25] Lisa Weinert: And so like, which group do you think feels better or did better? The one that shared depended on who they shared it with. So if they shared it with like the wrong person or someone that reflected back like hard or disgust or for me, like intrusive questions. And that's why I have a lot of guidelines in my program about like how, how we listen.

[00:35:48] Lisa Weinert: It can cause much more harm and it's way better actually not to share it. And we experience this all the time in our lives. I think that social media, that kinds of experiences you get are at when you're walking in your neighborhood or on the street. So in terms of finding the trusted person, I do wanna acknowledge that's a tall ask, especially if you're living in isolation or, well, whatever's going on with you, if you don't like necessarily have that trusted person, it's like, oh, oh.

[00:36:14] Lisa Weinert: You know, but they're out there. You know, I think my answer to that is really like, try harder. Mm. Seek out writing groups. Seek out a therapist, a doctor, a trusted like spiritual guide person. Just keep looking. Your story is worth it and there's no rush. Ugh, 

[00:36:34] Kathy Washburn: that that is a gem. It's so important, I think, to realize that choice is so important and, you know, it, it rubs me a little and that, that people pleasing Type C person I am, but I want them to like me.

[00:36:52] Kathy Washburn: If I share my story with them, you know, it's because I, I want them to like me. And it's not, that's not the goal. The goal is to find a safe place so you can be heard. Liking isn't part of the equation. Well, I would 

[00:37:09] Lisa Weinert: say when you're sharing something tender, whether it's a trauma story that you're working through, or maybe it's a first draft of something you're writing creatively, I would highly recommend having like the first read be like a real yes person in your life.

[00:37:22] Lisa Weinert: Mm. Like someone that does make you feel like they like you, like someone that maybe loves you and is gonna reflect back. Like, this is great. I love it. I love this part. Keep going and 'cause it when you're that kinder and raw and riding that thing for the first time, whether it's a purpose of healing or a creative pursuit, that part of you really needs encouragement.

[00:37:47] Lisa Weinert: Hmm. It's like a little kid learning to ride a bike or something like that. You're not gonna be like, you're doing it wrong, like you. And I think that we, we can seek that out and we deserve it. And I, I do provide some like guides and ways to look for it, but I, I feel very optimistic that, that there are those people out there and they can be sought out.

[00:38:07] Lisa Weinert: And there's different places for different people. 

[00:38:11] Kathy Washburn: Yes. I, I have been. Educated in the narrative coaching space with Dr. David Drake. So that, that coaching element and the, and it's so interesting because I was taught not to necessarily listen to somebody's words, but to actually listen to their body, so.

[00:38:35] Kathy Washburn: Mm-hmm. And it's, so, I, I feel a bit blessed that most of my work is done on Zoom because I can, I can actually focus on mm-hmm. It's much easier to focus on someone's body, but I've been working with this one client and whenever she started, she was really struggling with a few relationships in her life, and when she spoke of her interactions with them, she would put her hands over her face every time she started to talk about, yeah.

[00:39:05] Kathy Washburn: Her interactions, she would cover her face. So I just simply said, I noticed when you're speaking about these difficult interactions that you're. You're covering your face. And we just sat there in silence for a few seconds and she, she just started laughing, but tears were streaming down her face. She said, I think I'm afraid or ashamed that I can never be myself in these relationships.

[00:39:34] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. And it, it, the connection to her body in that moment and being able to express it to, you know, I'm her, I'm a coach. I'm not, I'm not in her daily life. It's, it's that we've created this relationship where she feels that she can, I think she got three inches. Three inches taller. Yeah. After 15 minutes, her whole demeanor changed.

[00:40:00] Kathy Washburn: She got taller. She was leaning forward. It was stunning to watch that unlocking Mm what, what the potential is when you are able to, to listen. To another human, share their fears. 

[00:40:16] Lisa Weinert: Yeah. And you demonstrated that you were, were seeing her right now. Like, I think sometimes just like actually acknowledging like, you're not alone right now.

[00:40:24] Lisa Weinert: Like, I'm here, it's like, whoa. It's like big thing, right? Yeah. And in my work, as you probably remember, like the guidelines are really clear about listening in terms of, well, setting up the conditions in your body that you're connected with, your breath, you're basically, your heart and your communication channels are basically open.

[00:40:44] Lisa Weinert: And that's a really big deal. 'cause I look for that a lot when I'm talking to people. There's a sense someone might be sort of looking like they're listening, but if their body is sort of like this or down, or like the phone thing, like that's, they're not listening and just to display. Like I'm, listen, I'm, I'm making an effort with my body to listen to you.

[00:41:04] Lisa Weinert: And then to clearly listen for what you love, what's working and what you might want more of. And I don't permit any intrusive questions or background questions. And I or kind of like critical feedback on what's not working. And for me that was the really radical departure from the kind of writing groups I've been a part of in a more like literary world.

[00:41:31] Lisa Weinert: It's maybe work for some people, but to my, the premise in all of my offerings is to focus on what's working and grow from there. Mm. And we're not used to talking to each other that way. Right. Right. So that's, that's, that's how I see a lot of deep friendships form really quickly. 

[00:41:48] Kathy Washburn: Mm. And I can attest to that.

[00:41:52] Kathy Washburn: There, will you do me a favor and just go through the six steps? I know that they're not linear. Yeah. But I'd love to hear you go through each one of them that you break down in your book. 

[00:42:04] Lisa Weinert: Yeah. Thank you so much. The, the six stages are awaken, listen, express, inspire, connect and grow. And they really move from the outside in.

[00:42:16] Lisa Weinert: So the first stage awaken is all about waking up the body literally through somatic practices that are very invitational and a lot of modifications, but opportunities to warm up the body and feel basically the sense like is what's here right now, like, am my, what's, what are the stories that are present?

[00:42:34] Lisa Weinert: What are the old ones? And then the second stage is now that we've woken them up, let's listen to them. And this is through mindfulness practices, meditation practices, and other ways of being with silence and practicing listening to what is. So it's sort of a pause step and we don't actually start writing.

[00:42:54] Lisa Weinert: I mean, there are creative prompts in those sections, but the real active writing happens only after those two stages. So it's as if we've caught up with the present moment by doing all of these. Mm-hmm. Mindfulness practices. And the third stage express is about approaching writing as a healing practice.

[00:43:10] Lisa Weinert: So setting it up like a sacred state. So the beginning and an end that you do with a sole purpose of like release and feeling better. And maybe the same way you might do a yoga practice or running or anything else like that. If something creative that you wanna work on comes from that, great, but that's really not the purpose of it.

[00:43:30] Lisa Weinert: And then the next step inspire is really about connecting with your own source of inspiration or muse or sense of belonging, which again, there's sort of these half steps between these different stages in the book that are allowing moments of pause and finding a, a source of reliable inspiration that doesn't come from you or another human is what that stage is really about.

[00:43:54] Lisa Weinert: And it's very roomy and inclusive and inviting. Personal inquiry and curiosity. The next step is what we were just talking about called Connect, which is about choosing one person to share your story with, and also being on the receiving end of that connection, which we can do in all sorts of ways throughout our lives.

[00:44:14] Lisa Weinert: And the idea being that once you release your story, which is the next step and grow, you are more able to connect with the stories around you as they're actually happening. Whether that's, you know, the big creator project you're working on, or actually listening to your neighbor or picking up the phone when it rings, or being like opening the door, just being present in the world around you with the stories that are there, which are, which is you aren't able to do if you're stuck in sort of the confines of your own story all the time.

[00:44:42] Lisa Weinert: So the last stage is really about being a part of community, contributing to community and can come in the form of any kind of compassionate care, including like social justice action or reaching out to like a friend. Mm. Or publishing your work, I guess. 

[00:45:00] Kathy Washburn: Yes. And you describing the, the whole life cycle of positive emotions.

[00:45:07] Kathy Washburn: How when we shift from that fight or flight, and I, I really appreciate that shift happening through the body. The way that you kind of walk people through that embodied somatic experience to calm calm in order for you to open, so broaden and build Barbara Frederickson's work about positive emotions.

[00:45:34] Kathy Washburn: When you're in that state, your vision is actually wider. Yeah. When we're in fight or flight, we're narrow focused. The op, you have more options. You can see other people's. Beauty and excellence in a way that you can't when you're in that fight or flight. So it's such a beautiful way, and I love the way that you explain, catching up with, you know, you're catching up with the moment of now.

[00:46:00] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. Because we're so often operating just reflexively from these old ways of being, and we don't even realize it, 

[00:46:11] Lisa Weinert: you know this. Yeah. And, and we do it also for a really good reason. Keep because you think it's whats gonna keep safe. Keep us safe. Right. And I, I love what you were just describing, and I wanna learn more about it from, from the teachers I've had, but I really think about this, this state of being either fight, flight or freeze or find when we're really closed in on our stories, we are wired to experience other people's stories as threatening, because that's our experience and that's what it'll keep me safe.

[00:46:37] Lisa Weinert: If I'm feeling this way, it means I'm threatened. So then you're a threaten, you're a threat. You're a threat. So then it takes it's almost acts, I talk about it in the book. It acts like an editor. So you just said something and I might experience it as like, you know, combative or insulting or something sort of along those, or controversial, something like that.

[00:46:53] Lisa Weinert: But if I'm in a state of openness and receptivity and feeling grounded and safe and open, and I'm, I'm seeing more, but I'm also primed to see what's a friend and I'm, and to experience what you're saying is something like, oh, I probably identify with that. I probably connect with that. I'm probably gonna learn something from that.

[00:47:11] Lisa Weinert: She probably means to do me. Well, she's probably trying to help me. And just those kinds of like assumptions that we make, we see in how we tell stories and how we take in stories all the time. By the tone we apply. Mm, 

[00:47:27] Kathy Washburn: yes. I, I, I can't help but think of that. Words matter, you know, words really do matter and they can mean such different things.

[00:47:37] Kathy Washburn: All. Yeah. And just the tone. That it's expressed in, it can be opening or it can be closing the same sentence. Yeah. Can shut people down or welcome them in. It's so fascinating. You and you brought that consciousness and some of the other people that you gathered, the other speakers there was 

[00:48:00] Lisa Weinert: Holly, Holly Alding I think was there.

[00:48:03] Lisa Weinert: Yeah. And was there 

[00:48:05] Kathy Washburn: And what's, who was the author of that famous movie about The Brides ethan Nick Turn, yes. Yeah. What was his book name? 

[00:48:15] Lisa Weinert: The Princess Bride, the Dharma of the Princess Bride and The Road Home are her, his two 

[00:48:20] Kathy Washburn: big books. Yeah. Yes. All of those people, again, such lasting influences, but Holly had us practice this It was called a cento poem.

[00:48:33] Kathy Washburn: Yes. We wrote a cento poem, which allow, invited us to take the words from other poems Yes. And form our own poem. And I thought that was another just brilliant opening to accessing feelings that are really deep and you can't articulate it. I often think about music that way. There's some, there's some songs where they just articulate my feelings so beautifully in ways that I could never form.

[00:49:04] Kathy Washburn: And that experience with Holly allowed me, my experience of that was to use another's words to articulate what I was feeling. It was really something. And I've used that practice with some clients when they're feeling stuck. Yeah. And inviting them to pull words from others and create a paragraph that makes 

[00:49:33] Lisa Weinert: sense to them.

[00:49:34] Lisa Weinert: I love that. I mean, it's just such a beautiful example and I'll, I'll definitely tell her that, that resonated so much. But this, I, for me, this is a path of integration. So we're integrating like our, our past selves are old stories, things that are sleeping or afraid or frozen or maybe annoyed or whatever's going on with them.

[00:49:52] Lisa Weinert: Or like, you're okay, we're here, we're all here together. Right? And then all the practices that you just shared, I really appreciate 'cause they're so practical, right? Like, take, take a couple words there. Listen over here, bring it in here. 'cause the idea here, the reason I'm act, I'm so passionate about this book and work and so excited to share this book.

[00:50:12] Lisa Weinert: Is that the ultimate like result of all of this is we become healing agents for each other, right? Right. And once we are regulated and feel heard and walk through this path, as we've such described, even without doing anything, it doesn't mean you gotta pick up the phone or over reach or how are you, how can I help or go kind of overdo this sort of over compassionate care kind of stuff, but actually walking down the street or through your supermarket or your library as a regulated person who has felt heard, you become a receptacle for everybody's stories around you.

[00:50:48] Lisa Weinert: Because a big part of this is this understanding that, okay, we might be writing down our stories, but we're actually telling our stories all the time by the way we breathe, how we move, how we're looking at people. We're taking in, we're listening, we don't tell all of our stories through writing. We're telling our stories through our bodies all the time.

[00:51:07] Lisa Weinert: And by doing this work we become. Just a part of like promoting like a peaceful, healthy environment for people around us and in the world we're living now that's so profoundly divisive and traumatized and violent and scary for, for everyone really. If we can be a part of a solution by writing a couple of times a week, I really wanna promote that because in my life it's definitely transformed my life and what I've seen through really everyone that's gone through this is something the most magical part.

[00:51:41] Lisa Weinert: Yes, a lot of people have written books and gone on and like expanded their professional creative lives, which I'm really happy about. But what really makes my my heart like sing and shake is when I hear about how you're still close with everyone that you met and these relationships that are formed.

[00:51:56] Lisa Weinert: And what happens actually in our lives when we are authentic, open, and honest with each other is, is, is the real medicine. 

[00:52:06] Kathy Washburn: That authenticity factor. I, I, I think your, that, that week that I spent, or five days that I spent in that space that you created, was a catalyst to, to accessing that authenticity by ex, you know, learning how to express emotions.

[00:52:27] Kathy Washburn: Yeah. Through the pen in a healthy way and being seen and heard. the name of this podcast is called Investment of Self, and I think that we live in a culture that thinks that there's some quick fix and magic Yes. To healing. And what I love about your book, and I'm using it as a daily meditation where I just take one of your prompts.

[00:52:52] Kathy Washburn: That's so cool because I kind of got away, you know, you go in these phases of self reflection and. I gather stuff and then I push forward and I'm more outward focused, and I realize that that time that I spend and that consistency in that constant investment of, of self in this way is a practice.

[00:53:21] Kathy Washburn: And I'm just wondering if you have some tips on designing one's own writing practice so that so that people can start to see the payoff in that investing of self in this way. 

[00:53:38] Lisa Weinert: I mean, you could probably, you just answered that so well. I would say that it's fluid and flexible and to meet yourself where you are, like where we go through periods of life, but we're more internal or more productive and other times' more out in the world.

[00:53:52] Lisa Weinert: For, for me it's really about listening to myself. So my personal practice is some kind of movement. Meditation and, and writing in the morning, and that might be for 10 minutes. It might be a gratitude list, but, but something along those lines kind of sets me up to be more primed for the day. In terms of a, a program that works, I think the principles of narrative healing's really modeled after most spiritual traditions that I've learned from.

[00:54:21] Lisa Weinert: There's three components to it and one is personal practice. So that is like how you show up at your desk or your mat, and that's for you to work out. If you're a daily writer, great. If you're a couple times a week, great. What's important is that it's done consistently with earnest effort over time. So if it starts to feel punishing or realistic, it's not actually helpful.

[00:54:44] Lisa Weinert: So be trust yourself and what works there. But I think creating sacred time throughout the week is a guideline I would give. The second part is, is study. So that's reading other people's works, being involved in other, other writing learning being in nature, like really feeding that inspiration piece, whatever that is for you.

[00:55:05] Lisa Weinert: I can't emphasize enough how important it's to read. I think that's a neglected part of the writing life. You have to read, be engaged with other, other words. Surround yourself with beautiful language, inspiring language. And the third part is community. This isn't we, again, we're social creatures. This is, writing is can be an isolating activity, but you don't need to do it alone nor really should you do it alone.

[00:55:29] Lisa Weinert: You are meant to support others. You're meant to be supported by others. We offer, you know, I have a narrative feeling community where I have community in classes or find your own community. But that would be my like trying to feed those three parts in a way that feels authentic to you is the the best way to set yourself up for success.

[00:55:50] Lisa Weinert: Hmm. 

[00:55:51] Kathy Washburn: I love the sacredness, you know, making it sacred. Yeah. Because there is an element of reverence for oneself that has to happen in order to invest in self. And again, we're in this culture that's this constant outward focus, 

[00:56:10] Lisa Weinert: outward focus, external focus, external focus, external stimulation. That I, and when I think about the sacred part, I don't necessarily mean like something really fancy or, or special even.

[00:56:21] Lisa Weinert: It can be, I think what's actually important is it has a beginning and an end. I think that's another area where people can get into a lot of trouble. It just, you start to feel like I need to be writing all the time, or like I'm, and that's sort of like living under a deadline all the time, which is corrosive in different ways.

[00:56:38] Lisa Weinert: And it can be as simple as setting a timer, lighting a candle. Going into, you know, just blocking it on your calendar. But I think to, to keep it really practical, because that's what works for me is to be practical, is to carve out time in your week that's actually for this, the same way that you carve out time to go grocery shopping or whatever else you need to do.

[00:56:58] Lisa Weinert: Like this is something you need to do 

[00:57:01] Kathy Washburn: on your calendar. Make it, yeah. Yeah. That's, those a great, I I love the triumvirate of those threes, those three pegs. 'cause I think I get lost in the I can get lost in the inspiration part. Yes. And really just wanna learn, learn, gather, gather, gather, gather.

[00:57:21] Kathy Washburn: But understanding that I need all three is really a powerful way to look at it for me. Yeah. Thank you. So I have one final question 'cause I'm mindful of the time. Yeah. If I crushed you up and put you in and put you in pill form your essence in pill form, what effect would you have on somebody taking that pill?

[00:57:46] Kathy Washburn: Oh my God, 

[00:57:47] Lisa Weinert: that is a wild question. I really don't know how to answer that. I can't imagine myself as a pill. I definitely I think I, I, I'm gonna just move away from that question 'cause I don't wanna be something that anybody ingest or that somebody needs what I wrote or did in order to change who they are.

[00:58:08] Lisa Weinert: But I hope as a result of like, spending time with me or my work, that somebody feels more confident, empowered, and inspired to like, share the story that needs to be told now and feel deserving and like their voice has worth. An understanding that there's like tremendous value and potency in what they need to say.

[00:58:34] Kathy Washburn: Hmm, I've experienced that presence of yours. 

[00:58:37] Lisa Weinert: And so that's to tell I guess that worthiness. But as you know, 

[00:58:45] Kathy Washburn: as a 

[00:58:46] Lisa Weinert: no, I really hope that it will inspire people to find this within themselves, not from anything that I'm, I'm.

[00:58:54] Kathy Washburn: I, I want to share with you my cento poem that I actually, oh, please. I wrote with Holly. '

[00:59:00] Lisa Weinert: cause I feel like I'm so amazed you have it still. That's so beautiful. Well, it was such a great four and a half years ago. 

[00:59:06] Kathy Washburn: Yeah, four and a half years ago, and long, four and a half years. Such a tum tumultuous time when I entered.

[00:59:13] Kathy Washburn: But it's my life felt so hopeful when I left that experience. But when I found this the other day I feel like it describes you as well and, and bringing this book to life. I don't have the the sources of the poems that she offered. So these words are other people's, but I, it's not sourced because I didn't write them down during this practice.

[00:59:40] Kathy Washburn: So I want to make sure these are not my words. These are somebody's beautiful words sourced by some magnificent poets. It goes like this. Now you can have a party invite everyone you know who loves and supports you. Keep room for those who have no place to go. A radiance will fill them from your fragile daring.

[01:00:07] Kathy Washburn: Just be there. You deserve this beautiful life.

[01:00:10] Kathy Washburn: That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. It just seems so fitting as I watch you grow. I mean, I watch you from afar on Instagram and your beautiful wedding. That just, it just felt magical. Like I was 

[01:00:25] Lisa Weinert: there, I in the middle of lockdown. That's so sweet. Yeah, it was. It was really, it was 

[01:00:31] Kathy Washburn: really special.

[01:00:32] Kathy Washburn: It seemed really special. And this book, I know that it's gonna help so many people crawl out from that darkness so that they can be more expansive and influence their circle in the way that. They want, and they're meant to do so. Thank you for your work. 

[01:00:50] Lisa Weinert: It's wonderful to reconnect with you.

[01:00:53] Lisa Weinert: I, I look forward to more. And thank you for, for supporting narrative, knowing so much. It means so much 

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