Ep. 52 - Releasing the Need to Please and Embracing Authentic Living with Riley Hope Matlock
[00:00:00] Have you ever experienced a moment when something inside you was just rattling to change? You know, a moment where the pain actually starts to push you until purpose begins to pull you? Our guest today, Riley Hope Matlock experienced that kind of rattling, that rattling awareness that inspired her to reestablish a safe relationship with herself over people pleasing way of being.
She admits there was a stubbornness there that this role of like Cinderella syndrome or the ultimate giver had validated her identity and without it, she had to rediscover what made her feel confident and gave her purpose. She discovered that in music. I should actually say she rediscovered it in music since she admits that as a child.
She [00:01:00] sang before she could speak. It was her singing that's the way that I found her. And these lyrics in particular, I almost gave my life away. No one else could save me. I had to become the change. It's not my job to take care of you. To betray my truth like I used to do.
It often starts with an awareness of the pain and maybe it seeps out as exhaustion or burnout, but most of us humans, there is a definable moment when we do desire something different. Riley's story and her music may both inspire you. And may this podcast be a catalyst for you to become the better version of you just bursting to step forward. [00:02:00]
Kathy Washburn: I am so honored to be here with Ms. Riley. Hope. Oh, we we met on the internet. I, I. We, we met through the internet sometimes. I really marvel at what technology has allowed us in this world. A lot of times I really trash it. Yeah. But there's, there's a lot of opportunity here.
And I heard about Ri on a podcast. I re, I searched her more. I found her music that just. Made me weep with understanding, [00:03:00] and I traveled with my little 10 seconds of insane courage and reached out to her on LinkedIn and just let the universe have it. And a couple of weeks later she responded and we had such a lovely conversation.
I'm so excited to have her here with us so she can share some of her genius. And we're gonna dive in, but as a way of introduction. I would love it if you'd be willing to share your story. I've started to do this with podcast guests where I want you to share like your story, short story and the how you got here, doing what you're doing and being this version of you by adding to the prompt.
Once upon a
time.
Riley Hope Matlock: Okay, once upon a time. I was a very sensitive young girl. Very much an old soul growing up. Highly empathic, highly sensitive person Growing up I was very much an anxious. Kid, I had a lot of anxiety [00:04:00] around being seen. I had stage fright, believe it or not, like major stage fright.
And I definitely was like the helper kind of personality type growing up always. And I. Definitely had neurodivergence as well mixed in with that. And so, you know, school was difficult. I was very much a perfectionist. Very much a creative as well. I sang before I could talk, like I was singing more than I was talking as a young girl.
And I would write songs like on the play set. I would, I was always wanting to perform and sing songs, make songs. But the stage fright thing definitely was also kind of hand in hand. I loved music, loved making music, loved singing music. But the stage fright was something that kind of came along with that.
So, my music has always been from a very genuine place and not necessarily like, oh, I wanna be seen, I wanna be the star. It's no, it's very much like a spiritual practice for [00:05:00] me. And so my parents were sweet and definitely encouraged me to, you know, join choir. So I joined this wonderful choir.
And then I learned piano and I was mentored by this amazing, professor who was a songwriter, like she taught me songwriting and all of that in high school. And then I was gonna be a therapist.
Riley Hope Matlock: Like I was very much going that route of being a therapist. You know, still kind of in like that, almost Cinderella syndrome kind of energy where it's oh, I just am here to help.
I'm here to help people. And then I. Definitely over my life have had many different kind of karmic relationships that were like the same, that are like the narcissism, you know, narcissist people. And I felt like they were drawn to me like bees to honey almost. Like I just encountered them literally everywhere.
And you know, I [00:06:00] experienced bullying as well growing up. I was just a very, yeah, empathetic. Gal. And so I met my husband at Starbucks. We were both working at Starbucks and I was doing the college thing at Starbucks, and he's also very much same, you know, kind of soul, like very much a soulmate. Both very empathic and sensitive.
And then we got married and halfway through college I was like, I kind of feel like a dark night of the soul where I realized, 'cause my husband loves me so well and I feel like him loving me so well, kind of opened up opportunities for me to heal some of these relationships that I had really been struggling with that were just.
Causing me to have to sacrifice my voice, my power, my autonomy, my truest authentic self. And so midway through, I had a dark night of the soul for sure, where I [00:07:00] started to get therapy for some of those dynamics. And I. Decided to leave school to be a therapist and decided to really give myself an opportunity to do what I always wanted to do and own my power, own my voice.
And it all just kind of started to change from there, like I started to really align with my highest self and like my most authentic self as I was. Healing and that kind of thing. So that's kind of what's brought me here.
Riley Hope Matlock: I released three songs the first year, last year of going out on my own to make music.
And I mean, as soon as I decided, like it's almost like I was like, I'm done with the old self.
I'm done
Riley Hope Matlock: with the Cinderella syndrome. I'm done with betraying my truth. I'm done with that kind of survival. Self, and as soon as I started to step into my highest self, my most authentic self, the songs just started to come [00:08:00] to me like crazy.
Like literally like a fire hose, there were so many song ideas that were just coming through, and so I'm writing my album right now, and as soon as I started to acknowledge the pain that I had faced and really started to go to therapy and feel safe to heal, that all these song ideas started to really come through.
Kathy Washburn: Wow. Wow. I don't even know where to start. There's so many pieces there. I've never heard of this Cinderella syndrome, but it's such a type C personality. Oh
Riley Hope Matlock: my gosh. Yeah. People growing up would be like, you're so much like Cinderella. They would tell me that, which is not a compliment to someone who is genuinely that way.
It's like, oh, I hate that.
Kathy Washburn: Yeah. Let me scrub your kitchen floors. Please. Oh, for sure. And I
Riley Hope Matlock: was always like, I wanted to be affirmed in that. Like I, I felt validated for that.
Kathy Washburn: Yeah. Yes. And that's so much of what what we do and what we're trying to transform is that [00:09:00] outside validation that need for others to see or need us or like us.
Your. It's astonishing to me. That you were so drawn to the therapeutic world and realize so quickly, and you're very young but realizing so quickly that maybe you were drawn to that world not to help others, but actually to help yourself so that you could help others. Yes,
Riley Hope Matlock: a hundred percent.
As soon as I started to like really get into these classes, I was like. Oh my gosh. It was like therapy for me. And then the more I started to get into, yeah, like human development, childhood development human behavior, learning about personality disorders, you know, I was like. Oh my gosh. It really started to wake me up in lots of ways.
Yeah.
Kathy Washburn: Well it's such a beautiful gift. That, and the courage that you got to just pivot and say, okay, this [00:10:00] is what I'm doing, and then have that. Internal validation that this is the right thing by having this music just kind of spill out of you. Yeah. In such a positive way.
Kathy Washburn: And so, the song that I first heard, and I don't know if this was your first song, but it was, it's called Not My Job.
And it it really just made me weep with recognition of how I put myself in the position of making it my job. Right. And then being in relationship with somebody who was actually looking for some, somebody to do that, you know, so I was attracting. It's a lot of times when clients come to me, they're like, oh, you know, there's sometimes a start of a victim mentality where and they don't really see their role.
Yeah. And how that attraction happened. And I think that happened for me because of the way that my relationship ended. But I pretty [00:11:00] quickly, similar to you, because I delved into psychology at that point in my life. Mine was at age 50. I know that you're much younger. Yeah. And this process. But when I started realizing.
I understand what happened. It was pretty much a perfect storm. And one of the ways that I was trying to traverse my own emotions. Was through music, uh mm-hmm. introduced you to Heather Maloney. Yeah. And she was one that her lyrics really gave me this ability to emote something that I couldn't tap into, which is what your song did.
So first of all, thank you. Oh my gosh. Thank you for saying that. So, so kind. I do think that. People who have ears to hear it when they're able to align with what you're articulating. It's just so powerful. But I'm really curious about how that process [00:12:00] was for you, because that, those are some really heavy feelings and I know that they're your personal feelings.
Kathy Washburn: What kind of practices or how do you even put those feelings into music? I can imagine it's quite cathartic, but yes. Also it must be. Really scary. Scary. Yeah. Yes.
Riley Hope Matlock: Yeah. So, that was the second song I wrote. And it was very scary to release because it was so true for me. It was like everything.
It was the song. It was the song that was like, this has been my karmic lesson. To give and give no matter how much and it was the most pivotal season where I was like, I'm done being this, I'm done. Being the hands that everyone's depending on and everyone's expecting I'm done with this.
For [00:13:00] this shell. And it did feel very cathartic, almost like a generational I'm, we're done with this, we're done. It felt like I was breaking a cycle almost writing that song because there have been so many type C people in my family line who you know, are givers. And so I felt you know, even if it's not something that.
People, you know, in my world like I felt like in the long game, I was choosing to break that cycle like we're done with this dysfunction, this this cycle. And so, my husband is why I released it. He was like, go further. He kept being like no, go. As far as possible, and I would be like, is this okay?
Like There were probably like 50 times writing this song and I was like, is this too much? And he would be like, no, keep going. Because he [00:14:00] also has very similar lessons in his life. Like he's had very similar relationships that we're talking about here and. Very much a type C as well. So he and I are healing together for sure.
But it's almost like he was like, please write the song for me, for so many of us who can't write this song, who can't, you know, get these ideas. And so he is really why I released it. He just was so encouraging and he's such a sweet human that his opinion really does matter to me. And if he, if he was saying to go for it, I trusted it.
And so I. Yeah, it was a difficult release process 'cause it definitely wasn't a fan favorite among some. But the people over time who've come to me about the song, that's why I wrote it. You know, the people who are like healing and who are choosing to heal with this song are the reason I wrote it and I wrote it [00:15:00] for me in the end.
And I think that honestly is the most important thing for me as an artist is as long as I'm healing. As I'm releasing these songs, I'm writing these songs. That's number one. Is this true? Yes, this is true for me. So that's, you know, success. But as I'm also, you know, releasing these songs, I feel like we're creating a community of people who are doing this kind of work.
So
Kathy Washburn: yes, and you make the work in the words, the way that you write it, it's not. It's not shaming. It's really kind of bringing. Bubbling up this awareness, but there's also this empowerment factor. There's my favorite line in there was I almost gave my life away. Yeah. And then the next line is, no one else could save me.
Yep. I had to save me.
Riley Hope Matlock: Yeah. Yes. Okay. So I'm so glad you mentioned that line because it [00:16:00] echoes in the beginning and the end. And my intention with that line was, no one can save us. No one can. No one should save us. We are here to save ourselves. No one could have saved me from that. No one could have told me.
Like I had to come to that conclusion myself. And that's how you heal, like when you come to the conclusion yourself. And so I'm so glad you caught that line.
Kathy Washburn: Well, that line and your, you've mentioned this a couple of times, the safety that your husband allows you, it real you, we need a safe place to land there.
This is not meant to be done in a vortex, like you're doing the work inside, but there needs to be safety around you. And a long time ago I read. I think his name's Louis Basia. I might have his book behind me, but I read his [00:17:00] definition of love and the way that he defined love was basically, you know, it's a verb.
It's, you know, yeah, it's an action, but also. It's being able to see these dark nights of the soul in one another and help each other rise above. Yeah, so it's not meant to be like all, you know, unicorn and rainbows in a relationship. Actually, the conflict and the rising up of these old.
Yeah.
Kathy Washburn: Fears or survival mechanisms that we grew up with, or even these ancestral traits that yes, we really do wanna shake and rise above.
We can't do it on our own. It needs to be witnessed. Yes. And I love that your husband is witnessing and inspiring you. Yeah. To step into that because I do know that it helps so many people. The other songs that I have listened, and these must be that your other [00:18:00] two are Breathe Deep and Rest Easy now and I'd love it if you could tell me a bit more.
Or is that one song?
Yeah.
Riley Hope Matlock: Read the rest Easy now. Yeah, it's a long title. Yeah, that was the first song I wrote. And it was literally a letter to myself. Oh, that's because it had been such a hard time. Like I had really done so much work on these inner wounds. I like what you said, the ancestral wounds, like they feel so deep and it's so true that when one person heals.
There's, it starts with one person like, and it goes generations back, generations forward. And it just felt like I was dying and resurrect like it felt like death and rebirth big time. Seriously? Like the dark night of the soul. I didn't even know what that was until I started researching like, why do I feel this way?
What's happening? And then I. Like found this term as I was [00:19:00] like trying to figure out why I felt and why I was going through what I was going through. But yeah, breathe, deep breath, easy now. It's basically everything that my inner child needed to hear. Like I know you've been tired for most of your life from fighting and fighting just to there were just so many things that, I had to kind of bear alone in a way. And so yeah, that song was definitely a letter to myself. Yeah. And I, so to other people who are going through this, it was kind of a both kinda.
Kathy Washburn: And what I heard in that song, which I really wanna accentuate is this awareness of it being so hard, like. Working so hard when we're trying to please other people and we ignore our own inner needs or we didn't even, you know, like you.
I wasn't even really aware that I was doing it. It was such a, I was not aware.
Riley Hope Matlock: Yeah. Yeah.
Kathy Washburn: It was such a sense [00:20:00] of who I was. Yes. That to kind of stand and witness like, oh gosh, that is exhausting. Exhausting. Yeah. To always be worried about everything outside and when we do align with our own authenticity, the.
You know, the outcome kind of goes away because we're, yeah. We're so true and rooted in who we are, that we can breathe deep and rest easy.
Riley Hope Matlock: Yes. Yes. Totally. Like it really is kind of like that relief after you leave that kind of cycle, that kind of, you know. Soul contract, whatever, when it's closed out and you're like, oh my gosh, now I can breathe deep and rest easy.
Now, there was no way to breathe deep and rest easy. Now, in those kinds of circumstances, like you have no autonomy to just yeah, be where you're at. So, breathe deep breath easy now is really like what my marriage [00:21:00] has been, honestly.
Kathy Washburn: That's so sweet.
Riley Hope Matlock: Yeah.
Kathy Washburn: I would love it if you could talk about some of these moments of awareness.
'cause I, you know, when I work with clients, I have a pretty it's not a linear path, but there's certain things that I do with clients to help raise awareness of who they truly are at their best. Yeah. I help them get. In touch with their personal strengths, understand their values but what were some of the moments of awareness or even maybe.
In a different context, what were the blinders that were removed that helped you gather the courage to make changes for yourself? What recommendations would you give to somebody?
Riley Hope Matlock: Yeah. Okay. Well, I became a reiki master. Like I was obsessed with everything. Healing yeah. And obviously I needed.
The healing. That's why I felt like it was subconsciously like, I need to heal myself. But I was doing in the form, I can't wait to help people. I can't wait to be a [00:22:00] reiki master, be a therapist. I'm gonna help the world. I'm gonna save the world. The savior complex was really real for me.
Wow. Yeah. And so I became a reiki master and started to like, you know, get into my body. And that was the. Thing that sparked my awareness of, I have so much anger, I have so, so many blocks in my throat. There was just all this awareness of all these blocks inside that were like dying to come out.
And so kind of like the. Like the transition from old self to new self was a lot of just crying, screaming, like shaking things out, like getting into my body and like really recognizing all that I had to suppress and it was such a grief, like to really become aware of oh my gosh, this dynamic I've been in, this role I've played [00:23:00] is so, first of all, insulting a little bit.
You know, there is this kind of rage of like, how dare you see me this way? Like how dare you see there was just this anger, I guess, of like. Why am I expected to be in this role that co that make forces me to completely betray myself? So there was some rage there that came out with lots of crying and screaming.
Honestly, it was very cathartic. And then as I started to kind of process grief and, you know, with therapy and stuff yeah, just. It was very difficult. Like it was not an easy process at all. Truly such a difficult time. But safe people, like when my body felt uncomfortable around people, I just wouldn't spend time with them.
I just really needed like a cocoon of safe people who did not ask me to. People please. Like I really wasn't such a hermit mode. And [00:24:00] I was writing songs and that was always something that. Brought a lot of. Peace and comfort for me. And it was also the very thing that challenged the people pleasing, like music was something that challenged the Cinderella syndrome.
I couldn't do that and also do this, and so it kind of felt like a little rebellion to be like, I'm choosing that I'm still helping people, but it's like I get to express myself and I get to, you know, stand in my power. So I. Yeah, I don't know. There were many moments of awareness. I think my soul, I think because I'm a very spiritual person, I think our soul knows when it's ready to wake up.
And I really like, it just kind of happened, like there was just this breaking point where I was like, this is done. I'm done. This is over, like this old self is over. Yeah, everything changed really from there
Kathy Washburn: that it's so [00:25:00] powerful the way that you describe it. 'cause I think there's a resistance, like some people are and you know, I admittedly I'm working with people that are twice your age.
So there's a lot of there's a lot of unpacking and Yeah. I once, oh, it's so hard. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I once read that it takes one year for every, to transform every 10 years of a behavior. Interesting. That resonates. So, yeah, it totally resonated with me and it really kind of made me roll up my sleeves and say, okay, this podcast's name is called Invest Investment of Self, and that's what it required.
It was like, yeah. Are rolling up the sleeves and investing in myself. One of the things that you just mentioned is shocking to me because it came up in such a weird way for me as well, is during my narrative coaching, I [00:26:00] was actually being coached by the head of the organization. His name's Dr.
David Drake, and I was talking about my kindness. I don't remember the context of it, but it was something about, well, I have to be kind, you know, kindness is one of my top strength. Yeah. Identity. Yeah. And yeah, and he said, well, I'm just curious. What's the opposite of kindness? And I thought, I don't know.
And he said, the opposite of kindness is rage. So how can you bring rage? I just want you to. Think about how you can bring rage into this situation. And it made me so uncomfortable. Yeah. And I said rage and anger really aren't, you're thing. They're not my thing. I don't really even know how to do it.
And when I've tried to do it, it's very unskillful. It's like it just comes out sideways. I'm with you. His [00:27:00] recommendation was for me to scream. Yeah. And I thought, okay and he said, but there's one thing I want you to be really careful of. I don't want you to scream from your throat. Yeah. 'cause that's where you're all blocked and that's really not where rage comes from.
You need to scream from your belly. Yeah. Yes. And I thought, what? But I Isn't that how you s isn't professional singers, don't you sing from your belly? Yeah. From deep.
Riley Hope Matlock: Yes. It's like from that solar plexus of inner power, like your core soul self. Yeah. And what happened? It was so bizarre. I was at Starbucks and I al, it almost felt like something was coming out.
And I
Riley Hope Matlock: was really like physically. Like in a rage physically. And like you just said, I've never been an angry person. Like I can hold my cool skillfully. Like it's [00:28:00] scary how good I am at keeping my emotions in check. I've gotten very good at it. Been trained, you know, and so no matter what conversation, whatever I have been able to maintain.
My emotions skillfully, but this day it was like something needed to come out and I had never let myself feel rage ever. And so I literally had to leave. I was like, I have to go. And my husband was working that day too, and I got into the car and I felt so out of body. I like slammed my door shut and screamed all the way home.
And was like crying and screaming at the same time and it was like, okay, I'm facing it. I'm facing it, I'm looking at it. It's ugly, it's painful. I don't even know where this is gonna take me, but that day was when it all started to just like tower moment. Done everything started to unravel.
Yeah.
Kathy Washburn: [00:29:00] And I think I had a similar experience. It's so interesting 'cause I did go scream, I screamed in the woods. It took the first probably 10 minutes for my dog to understand what was happening. He was so freaked out. He's jumping and he's like, why are you screaming? And then he realized like, oh, okay, you.
You go scream, I'm gonna go over here and see what's going on. Yes. I do think that there is for many people that have lived a life of type C, which is really a disconnection to themselves, I. Yeah. And often a very disconnected body. Like we're very disconnected because if we were connected, we'd be such a live Oh, we would explode.
Riley Hope Matlock: Yeah. Literally. Seriously. Yeah.
Riley Hope Matlock: It's like I knew that growing up, like I was not connected to my sexuality Right. At all. Like I'm telling you right now, it was off. The switch was off. And I had turned it off. I was like. Can't do [00:30:00] that. Can't do that. Like I was completely disconnected from my body and it's I knew this has to be this way for now later.
It's like I just subconsciously knew later, we'll visit this, but right now we are surviving. Period.
Kathy Washburn: Wow. It's so remarkable. 'cause I think what happens as people get older is, you know, they were doing that as their survival and then as they get older, the numbing comes in. So yes, there's a lot of alcohol I
that.
Kathy Washburn: I see that in people substance food that there's a lot of numbing to keep that disconnection. But once you turn that switch back on, and like you said in your song, you start to begin to be able to breathe deep and yeah, rest easy. I think weight comes off. There's yes.
Kathy Washburn: And there is this horrible time in the middle.
Yeah. You know, we, that messy middle where [00:31:00] it's oh, if I'm not numb, I'm feeling, but I get to feel good and pleasure. And I have to feel the pain and the suffering that I've suppressed, so there is a big ball of messy middle in the middle of that. Oh my gosh. My middle was messy. Yeah, it was.
And if you can find places, you know, I, I. I was alone for sure.
I was like, no one
Riley Hope Matlock: needs to see this. I definitely isolated. Yeah.
Kathy Washburn: Yeah. Look away people. I did too. Yeah. I had the luxury of travel. I, oh yeah. Again I don't even know how I got to these places where I ended, like somehow I ended up in New Zealand hiking.
Amazing. It was amazing. I don't, I really don't remember planning it. It was almost like, yeah, you, there's. There's something happened. Yeah. And somebody helped me to get me to where I needed to be. Yeah. Which [00:32:00] was really important. Well, that's amazing. It was amazing.
Kathy Washburn: And you know, and I look at your story and when we first connected together you said to me, I will not sacrifice my truth for anything.
Yeah. You were like, when you own your truth, no validation from outside can interfere. True. And I was like, dang, that, that really took me Yeah. So long. And I still get rattled. I still will. Yeah. It's very easy for me to kind of slide into that. People pleasing or, okay. I just want everybody to get along and be happy so.
Yes, I am going to forsake my truth, but it does not feel good anymore. It's a very loud wait, Kathy, hold on. So I really feel like yeah, I have two. You know that, that picture of a double and a angel on my shoulder and one's screaming over here. Yeah. How do you suggest [00:33:00] like getting our.
Kathy Washburn: Are feeling back, like, When you're trying to step into that truth, what do you do to really kind of ground yourself in that truth?
Riley Hope Matlock: Physically feeling like your emotion, feeling safe to feel. Yeah.
Kathy Washburn: Yeah. Yeah.
Riley Hope Matlock: So that's probably been the hardest part. I actually recently, like in the last month, did get on anxiety medication.
And so I'm pairing medication therapy, you know, somatic. All of it works very well together. But I think that there can be some genuine chemical impacts from these dynamics. Like I think we just tend to have very high anxiety. You know, our nervous system is used to being in survival mode, and so whatever works for you.
Like if being around, like for me, I started to just let myself.
Riley Hope Matlock: Not go to things or not be around certain people as much or at all. Like [00:34:00] just allowing myself to create a chosen family of safety around me that, you know, my nervous system isn't just like on fire being around them. Yeah, you just really have to let yourself be where you're at and have community so.
I mean the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast, I actually have loved that podcast so much. I've been listening to that a lot. And it's so awesome that Tony also used that song. It was such a cool connection. And then him talking about other things too on the virtual couch has been helpful. So.
Yeah, you just have to establish a safe relationship with yourself, which is so difficult for the type C person, and it's messy. It takes time, but you feeling safe needs to be the priority, like as hard as that is for people pleasers. If you don't feel safe, don't do it. It's like you have to train your body to listen to the radar and do something.
[00:35:00] If I don't feel good about going there, I'm not going. If I don't want to answer the phone, I'm not going to like just getting back in tune with your body and if there are signals, listen and choose your safety over people pleasing. That is just, I think, the biggest challenge, but also the most important thing to start to rewire.
Kathy Washburn: Yeah. One of the things I encourage clients to do when they get that urge to people, please just insert the question, what would please me? Oh, that's beautiful. Yes. Which is often just enough to rattle them back into their body. Wait a minute. Okay. Yeah. I don't know if you're familiar with Mel Robbins.
Riley Hope Matlock: Yeah. Yeah. Just some of her stuff.
Kathy Washburn: Yeah. She just came out with this. Book that really irks me. I've read it because a couple of my clients had mentioned it to you, but it's [00:36:00] called Let Them. Yeah. Okay. And for type C people, I'm so glad you mentioned that. Yeah. Type C people, it's not okay. And actually it's not.
The chant should be let it be me or let me be first or Yes. I don't love, yeah.
Riley Hope Matlock: Her messaging, so I'm so glad you said that.
Kathy Washburn: And I had this conversation with a friend of mine who's not type C. She's very much Type A and she's oh, I totally I love her book, I love her stuff. And I said, I think it works really well for type A for anybody with type C.
No is very painful. It's actually
Riley Hope Matlock: dangerous. Yes. I've heard so many like little clips on the internet of her and I'm like, that is horrible advice for people who come from our world. Yeah. It's very guilt and shame oriented. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. So, oh my gosh. I think just let them is a [00:37:00] people
Kathy Washburn: pleasing.
It is self-sacrificing.
Riley Hope Matlock: It's enabling. It's enabling of people who don't want to leave or don't want to choose themselves. There is this stubbornness, I think with the type C people where it's like. Ugh. It's almost like your identity is wrapped around this people pleasing and it's well, if I leave this, who am I?
Then it's an identity and that's a challenge. It really is. And it's so easy. I think when people are so far into that identity, that role, the savior it's who would I be? Outside of this validates everything I need. So there is an ego death. Like I had an ego death where I was like, without making everyone feel good, without being needed, without being the savior, without being the angel.
Like I was an angel. That was a big thing. She's an angel. That went away. I was like, I'm not an angel. I'm not an angel. [00:38:00] Okay. If I am earth, angel, whatever. That's different than this kind of role that I've had to play where I am getting ego filled. I mean, I, my ego's being filled by this role. So there was a huge ego, death for sure.
I didn't even know what made me feel important, what made me feel confident anymore, I didn't know who I felt like a shell for like months. 'cause I was like, without this role, I have no idea who I am. So.
Kathy Washburn: And I think, and that's my thing with Mel Robbins, that is the messy middle. And you can't skip over it.
You can't just be like, oh, okay, I'm gonna go from validating my existence through the outside this identity to, I'm gonna just let them. That's, I'm just gonna go from here over here without having that ego death. It, yeah. It requires dying. Yeah. It [00:39:00] requires awareness, acknowledgement, understanding oh, I get it.
This is how I became, this is how it's influencing who I'm being right now.
And it has no place in the who I wanna become. So I've. I've gotta figure out how to, and I hate even to say the words, let it go. Because to me that's really messy. If I let it go, it means I just put it down and I know exactly where to find it and I can pick it up at any time.
Yeah. So you have to cut it. You have to crush it. Yes. You. Hundred percent. Yes. Or burn it, you know, I always think of that Phoenix Rising. The Phoenix Percent. Yeah. Yeah. It.
Riley Hope Matlock: My album Symphonic Alchemy.
Riley Hope Matlock: Really, it just really feels like it was given to me like by it really does feel like all of these songs, this idea was given to me and it's So this is your new album?
Yeah. Symphonic [00:40:00] Alchemy. Coming out in September. It's about the process of, oh my gosh, realizing. Oh my gosh, this is what's been going on this whole time. And then what happens when the tower moment happens? The rage, there's, there are a few songs that really tap into the rage of, oh my gosh, what did I just go through and reflecting on?
Was any of this worth it? And so it really goes through all of the phases that I personally went through to get to where I'm now. And it's messy. It's also encouraging, like there are some really helpful songs that are upbeat and you know, the light at the end of the tunnel, like getting into a new mode.
But it is the alchemical process. That we go through, through music. So I'm using all sim, like a full orchestra. It's very much a symphony of healing, so I'm so excited for people who are working on these things to have these songs. Because I get it. I've been through it [00:41:00] and it's not easy.
Kathy Washburn: It's not easy, and to have this gift of music where the words can be, can resonate and allow. Awareness and processing. It's such a gift. I have this when you, I just have this vision of using your work almost in the order, you know? Not that it's linear, but It is though. It is. It is though. Yeah. Yeah.
Starting with the, it's not my job, which is just such an awareness of, oh my goodness, I've been doing this and now I know I'm doing this. And then also. This coming album being a, okay, this is how this stuff gets processed. Yeah. I cannot wait. I cannot wait to get, to, to hear the music, to really let the words wash over me.
Riley Hope Matlock: Yeah.
Riley Hope Matlock: I'm so excited to, [00:42:00] yeah, I've, it's been a two year, I thought I was gonna be able to release it last year, but I was literally in the thick of everything and I think. This whole process has been very helpful and like you can't just heal and then immediately release things. You almost have to let it like brew or you know, you have to feel like emotionally equipped to release these songs and I don't know, there's just like some time that can heal with these songs specifically.
And so it's taken longer for me to release than I wanted, but I trust that. September is the perfect time for it now that I've healed enough and feel like I can sing these songs without getting triggered, if that makes sense.
Kathy Washburn: Yes, that
Riley Hope Matlock: makes perfect sense.
Kathy Washburn: And I really appreciate that waiting because I do feel like, you know, you're a guide for so many people and that doesn't mean that you're perfect.
It means just [00:43:00] you're one step in front of. Where people, you know, the dark forest that people find themselves in. So you could be one step for some people and you could be 20 steps for others. Yeah. There is a past. It's so beautiful.
Riley Hope Matlock: That's like such a beautiful image. It kinda makes me feel emotional. I saw this one quote when I was really in the thick of my dark night of the soul that was like, it's such a powerful thing to go through the fire and bring back water.
To the people who are now going through it, and that's exactly what I'm doing, and I'll keep doing it. I'll keep doing it because I had my husband and one friend through that. And I did it alone pretty much. I mean, I really was very isolated and I felt very very much, yeah. Yeah. Isolated. So,
Kathy Washburn: yeah.
Which I think is, again, it's [00:44:00] part of the hell, it's part of the messy middle. They're almost it's almost required because I agree of who we are and that we're, we have such a spidey sense of the people around us. Yep. And it's such a quickness to be able to take in others' feelings. Yeah. And work through them and ignore our own, that it's almost.
I mean, I went to New Zealand. I don't even, you were real far. You're like, bye bye. I just, I, but I needed that isolation in order to shut it all off so that I could go inside, which was scary as hell. Yeah, I had never done that before. I'd always had some. Oh yes. Something or someone, a community, yes.
Outside of myself to keep me busy and noisy and, oh, yeah,
Riley Hope Matlock: noisy is a great word for it. And here's the other thing it's like when you do this work, the people who have also suffered from the same wounds or like, no, no, no, no, no, [00:45:00] no, no, no, no, no, no. You know, it is like. yeah, it's time. It's time. Let me hold your hand.
It's time. You know, it does kind of, I hate the term, this term for this, but like it does almost trigger people because it's like. No, I'm not ready to heal this yet.
And I think that not my job was definitely that for some. Right. And some people aren't ready and that's okay. Right. That's okay.
I mean, like we discussed the lyric, no one could save me. I had to save me. Like everyone has their moment and it might not be in this life. it's truly something that's hard to Yeah. I think everyone is in their own timeline with that.
Kathy Washburn: Yeah, that took me a little time to understand and not force down the throat of people.
I get it. I can help you. Please.
Riley Hope Matlock: Yeah. It's don't you see? Yeah. And you really can't like force someone to see or want to see like that was the other really [00:46:00] hard thing is some people don't want to, no, you like, I do feel that those who are doing this inner work, who I really feel like I was like chosen to do this work.
And I feel like my soul kind of knew over my whole life. Like I was such a target for these people. I really was, I met them everywhere. I mean, work, school, everywhere. I could just sense one in a room, just new. , they never liked me. Of course. Of course. And so I do think those who are doing this work are very much the lighthouse, like the lantern for those who are still in it.
Even if we get projected on, you're still a light and there are so many people who are experiencing these kinds of things. I mean, it is everywhere. Like these dynamics the type C, the empath, the narcissist, whatever. It's happening everywhere on such a global scale everywhere. I mean, this is [00:47:00] like such a common thing.
Riley Hope Matlock: So
Kathy Washburn: yes, and I like you, I, I. I believe that when you can alchemize and transform this, you have such a superpower because that ability to be empathic in an empowered way Yeah. Is what's gonna counterbalance this Yes. Other negative force. And the more people that do this work, it's not just for themselves, it's really for.
The betterment of all. Yeah.
Riley Hope Matlock: Oh, for sure. It heal. This is what's so interesting. It does heal the other souls too. I have obviously done a ton of research on, you know, NPD and there's no way for narcissism [00:48:00] to thrive alone. They need narcissistic supply. They need to not be alone. And so when you own your power, there's no choice.
There's, I mean you must face yourself at that point. And I think the more these kinds of impasses really start to be like, Nope, I'm not be betraying my truth, you know, for whatever I'm healing, you heal, whatever. When you cut that like tie. There's this healing that also can happen, you know? In a collective way. Which I have seen. I mean, as hard as it is the only way
Kathy Washburn: a lot. I agree. And I, one, a friend of mine had this quote, and it has stuck with me forever. It's, I'm doing this work for the benefit of all and the detriment of none. Yes. It's not out of hurting another pe other people.
Yeah. Because when you're at the [00:49:00] receiving end of a narcissist, it is very hurtful and Oh my gosh, only hurt. Yeah. It's only hurtful. And I think what you and I have both learned is it's not about fighting fire with fire. That doesn't work. No, it does not work. It's the water. Oh my gosh. It's the water. It's bringing back that water.
Yes. And. And so this is, it's really hard work when you're called to do it. I do think you are a chosen one. Oh, too. It is for the collective.
Kathy Washburn: So I am so grateful for. Your voice in the world, it's, thank you. And I can't wait for your new album to come out. It's
Riley Hope Matlock: definitely, I'm feeling ready. I was very scared to do it.
It's like I wasn't ready before, but now I'm like really excited and, it's gonna be good. Well,
Kathy Washburn: I will be sure to be sharing that when it does happen. And I hope that you get in touch with my beloved Heather Maloney. I just saw her in a concert last week. [00:50:00] It was this little connected. Yes. I hope that you can, it was this little tiny church in Marblehead, Massachusetts.
I had no idea what to expect. And the acoustics in there. Yeah, a cathedral. Oh my. So magical. Yes, it was really magical. Beautiful. Well, I really appreciate your gift of time. I have one last question for you. I am wondering if I were to crush your essence up and put it in pill form, what effect would you have on someone taking that pill?
Riley Hope Matlock: Oh my gosh, that's such a good question. What effect? I really do think it would be like the serenity that comes with clarity. Like when your eyes have dust in them and then you completely wipe it away and everything's colorful again. It's I think that is the impact I've had.
Especially on, you know, [00:51:00] people who are also healing from all this. I think I bring clarity, not in a brutal way, but in a no confusion way, like clearing. I think I clear fog, I would say. I don't
Kathy Washburn: know. You do. And I, you know, I've taken that pill when I listen, when I first listened to it. I think I played it a repeat for 25 minutes, but I, and I know what you're talking about because what happened when I was listening to your song, I wasn't crying.
I was weeping and it was like and I see there's a very big difference for me. Yeah. Weeping, I feel is so in my bones. Yes. It's like old stuff. It's this knowing it's the nervous system, like Yeah. Releasing, and that's what happened when I listened to your music. It was this clearing through this almost somebody was squeezing out a towel of those, the rest, the old bits of, [00:52:00] yeah, that needed to be alchemized so that it really did kind of clear up.
A fog inside me and I know that I cannot wait for your new words. There's so much more.
Riley Hope Matlock: I
Kathy Washburn: can't
Riley Hope Matlock: wait. Thank you so much, Kathy. Like this connection's just been like. So incredible. And I'm just so grateful for you and like I just
Kathy Washburn: love talking to you. I love talking to you, and I hope this is not the last time.
Oh, it can't be. Maybe when you start touring and you come on the East Coast, I will message you. You, I hope you do. I really do. I'm so grateful for this time together. I know that there's a lot of people on this healing path that will be better for it, so thank you.
Riley Hope Matlock: Absolutely. Thank you.
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