The Empathetic Trainer
Welcome to ”The Empathetic Trainer,” the podcast that explores the power of empathetic animal training
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The Empathetic Trainer
Dr. Shelly Appleton - My Horse's Problem was Actually Me - S2 E23
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Barbara O’Brien talks with horse trainer, coach and author Dr. Shelley Appleton about building trust and confidence between riders and their horses. Shelley shares how things like fear, aging, and hormones can affect riding, especially for women. They talk about the importance of patience, understanding, and learning to see things from the horse’s point of view.
In addition to being the host of the Canter Therapy podcast, Shelley is the author of two books - Confidence & Trust, Solving the Human & Horse Equation; and Buying & Supporting a New Horse, The Essential Guide.
This episode is full of tips for riders and the value of working with others to grow and learn.
https://www.empathetic-trainer.com/
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien. I'm an animal trainer and photographer and I'd like to welcome you to the Empathetic Trainer. Hi, this is Barbara O'Brien and you're listening to the empathetic trainer podcast. Got a real special guest today. Shelly appleton is going to talk to us all about horses and our relationship with them, and you know that's like one of my favorite things and, I'm sure, one of your favorite things to learn about too. Dr shelly appleton is a highly skilled equine trainer and coach. She owns and operates calm, willing, confident horses. Shelly believes that the key to any successful relationship is to help support the horse by making them feel calm, confident and comfortable. She is also the author of two books Confidence and Trust Solving the Human and Horse Equation, and Buying and Supporting a New Horse the Essential Guide. Just even the title of your book is fascinating. Thank you for coming, shelly. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2I'm really glad to be on here. Thanks for inviting me, Barbara.
Speaker 1Great. The buying the new horse, making them feel calm, confident, comfortable Wow, I really relate to that, and so I do want to definitely dig into that and learn about that book. But a few things we'll start out with before we get to that is I'm just curious how you became what you kind of consider which I love the accidental horse trainer. How did you become?
Speaker 2the horse trainer. I'm a total accident. So yeah, if you told me even 15 years ago that I'd be sitting here doing this as a full-time job, I would have thought that was hilarious. So I was your quintessential equestrian. I was an academic in pharmacy. I had a 25-year career in academia as a pharmacist and I was someone that rode horses as a hobby and I was one of those people that was very dedicated to my sport of dressage and I had my weekly lessons and I had my horses. And you know, I was the quintessential amateur.
Speaker 2And then I had some epiphanies, let's call them that, some moments in my life that really confronted me and highlighted the ignorant world that I was living in and realized that I actually didn't have a clue what I was doing, which was very confronting when you've ridden horses since you were 10. So that's what happens. That's why I'm accidental. Uh, I had no intention ever, even when I started getting good at training horses, it was purely a personal pursuit. You know, I had got curious from my mistakes and I'll tell you about my. I'll run through the. You know the, the terrible discoveries I've discovered about myself and what I was doing to my horses, but what happened is that it sparked my curiosity when those mistakes were revealed to me sparked my curiosity and that really filled me with a real passion. A real passion that there was a lot that I didn't know and one thing that I had been able to do really well in my life was to learn things really well. In fact, that was my coping mechanism, for anything that scared me was to just master it.
Speaker 2So I got very passionate about it, but it was a purely personal endeavor and it wasn't until I helped one of my friends because I witnessed something terrible and I'll run through all that for you. That really kind of catapulted me into helping people, but it started off just as my friends, and then their friends, and then their neighbors, and then it got bigger than Ben Hur and I'll never forget. The first person that contacted me and asked me to do a clinic was and I'm in Australia, you've got to understand and at the time was in Perth, western Australia, which is the most remote city in the world. The first person that contacted me and asked me to do a clinic was from Texas in America, and that was so hilarious anyway. So that's where I came from and let me just tell you. I want to tell you what happened, what was the moment that happened that really started me off or really opened my eyes to my ignorance, like my big mistake.
Speaker 1So after I'm going, to stop you right there, because we all relate to what you're saying. Anyone who's been around animals and worked with animals, we could all, especially, the older you get, the more you go. I can't believe I used to think this way, used to be this way, and you kind of beat yourself up. But you know, so we are. I understand already a little bit and, um, it helps us to go like we're not alone in this. So please go on. I just wanted to like, say that, like, like, I get it.
Speaker 2You're not the only one no, it's just that I think people are always really, and people always thank me for telling the story. So I do, I want to tell it because it's like thank you, you know, like that was kind of inspiring. It's like, yes, my biggest failure of my equestrian life is an inspiration, so that's good. So let me tell it to you. So my horse died, sadly when I was in my final years of high school and I decided just to focus on my studies, um, instead of getting jumping in and getting a new horse. So what I did is I didn't get another horse, although I leased horses and rode other people's horses until I had finished my university degree and I'd done my internship and I'd actually worked for a couple of years to save up because I wanted to buy the, the most amazing horse ever. So I went and purchased the flashiest young, warm blood I could find okay to be an absolute dressage star. And then he proceeded to scare the hell out of me for nearly eight years eight years. He scared the hell out of me for nearly eight years, eight years. He scared the hell out of me and I labeled him as sensitive because he was scared of the world. I'd fall off him, and I'm not kidding, I would fall off him every four to six weeks because when he would spook he would also spin, but I actually never got hurt because he was so athletic. He spun so close and low to the ground and I always fell off to the off side, off to the right, and I was only ever quite a low, a low distance from the ground, but it was always just like bang and I was on the ground and it was like the ultimate uh of human sufferings. You know, they say the three human sufferings. You know they say the three human sufferings are pain, uncertainty and the need for constant work. Well, scooter and that was the horse's name was all that rolled into one, and so riding him was just, it was just a dread. You just waited for it because you never knew what it was. It was that something or nothing. You could never predict it. So I labelled him as sensitive and, of course, being a pharmacist from that world, I lived in Barbara.
Speaker 2What do you think I did? What do you think I did to try to fix him? What do you guess? Medication or something. That's right, because he had a medical condition, didn't he? There's obviously something wrong with him and I had to cure that. Like you like with you know how medicine cure things. It's like what's the deficient thing, what's going wrong and how do I fix it. So that was my preoccupation for a long time and of course I'm a really hard worker. I was told, already told you that that you know I, I hard work my way out of problems.
Speaker 2Um, yet this horse, it didn't matter what pill, potion, herb supplement I gave him, like nothing really ever changed it. And then it was like I got a new saddle, I got new bits. I even did an entire bone therapy course which is like a massage type modality, because he had one once and he was good the next day. So it's just like, damn it, I'm doing that whole diploma. So I even did that. It was complete desperateness and it even got a little bit crazy towards the end because I was getting him to and I'm not going to say it's crazy because you know there is some research into aromatherapy but before I'd ride him I'd get him to smell patchouli and lavender oil before I rode him. So it was just like. So I went from, like you know, a pharmacist into desperateness, into complementary medicine, to try to find the solution for my sensitive horse. And I just looked at him. I was just sensitive and how I saw myself was very unfortunate that I bought this sensitive horse with this really difficult temperament and the only thing that I saw myself as being deficit in was bravery. That was it, bravery. I just had to be braver to ride him anyway.
Speaker 2Then, um, my lovely farrier at the time, he became my partner and mentor. His name was Gary Willoway. He's an exceptional horseman, he and he was a great mentor because he never told you what you were doing wrong, ever. He never. He waited for you to ask and he offered to ride scooter for me one day. Anyway, imagine this. Imagine the most beautiful day, beautiful, sunny day, not too hot, gentle breeze, walking down to my arena and I was quite sure that, um, that Gary was get hurt because, you know, he was a rodeo man, he did team roping and he rode those really quiet quarter horses. You know those really quiet quarter horses because that's how, in the silo, I was in my world of dressage and I was quite sure he, you know he'd never ridden anything like this high octane dressage horse that I had.
Speaker 2And I'm walking down there and I'm telling him all the things that Scooter spooked at in my arena. Because you see, barbara, I could only ride at one end of my arena on probably I wouldn't even call it a 20 meter circle, I'd call it a 15 meter circle because he was so scared of everything. I used to call that my circle of safety, so I could only ride him on this circle. That's how restricted my life was with him and where I could ride him. I never was able to go to a competition. I would go to my coach's place where I'd fall off a few times, and once or twice I tried to take him to riding club, which was a traumatizing experience anyway.
Speaker 2So I've got the circle of safety and I'm running through with Gary all the things that Scooter spooks at right. He's worried about this, worried about that anyway. Um, gary gets on him and asks him to walk off and, of course, on cue, uh, scooter spooked right and all Gary did was give him a bit of a kick and put him up into a canter. Now I was a bit validated to begin with by that spook because as we're walking down and I was telling him about every time, everywhere that he spooked, gary looked a bit quizzical. He didn't say anything, but I could tell he was looking slightly amused and I asked him you know like, didn't you want to know what Scooter spooked at? Because to me that was sensible, that was risk management, right, that's how my mind worked was like no, I'll just wait for him to do something, I'm not going to preempt it.
Speaker 2Anyway, I thought that was madness. So when he spooked on him in the first two seconds I felt very validated. But then that's where it ended, barbara. It ended and I proceeded to watch Scooter and Gary lope around my arena, past everything scary, with Scooter and Gary lope around my arena, past everything scary, with Scooter, just relaxed, looking like anyone could ride him, the most relaxed horse in the world. Gary turned around, he went the other way, loping, no problem, beautiful, relaxed, and I had that horrid realization, very confronting realization, that his problem was actually me and sometimes you can be so clever and so hard working that you don't see your own fault in a situation.
Speaker 2and I remember he, he loped up to me and he halted and he you know Gary just smiled and put the reins on Scooter's neck and I looked at Gary and I said it's me, isn't it? And he went yeah, it's you. And I just went because Gary doesn't offer any. You had to ask, right? He was very polite, you know, let you work out your own problems. And I said what am I doing wrong? And he said it's you, you're telling him.
Speaker 2The world is terrifying and he's believing you stop creeping around him, stop worrying about the world, stop trying to protect him, because he believes you that the world is terrifying. Stop it and you know what. That's all I had to do. That is all I had to do on that horse that that was the easiest horse ever to transform, but it gave me this lesson and, although I tell you what, it was one hard pill to swallow when that, like, you think you're good at something and suddenly you realize you've caused this, yeah and but at the same time it was this wall. It was like that's all I have to do is change me. That was also super empowering.
Impact on Horse Behavior Through Self-Awareness
Speaker 2So, although it was super uncomfortable, it was like, seriously, I had changed myself and learnt some hard stuff in my day. This got revealed to me. Yes, it was very confronting, but, boy, I know how to change me and I'll never forget the day. I'm going to tell you this other horrible story, this other horrible thing I did to Scooter as well, just to tell you it was lightly sprinkling one day. Imagine it was lightly sprinkling, it was coming on winter and I was leading him through a gate this is before my epiphany leading him through a gate, and he kept bolting through the gate right nearly over the top of me. Anyway, I got angry because that's what you do when you're scared.
Speaker 2When you're scared and you need something done, you channel the opposite emotion, which is like, which is like anger and aggression, and I was making him go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth across this threshold of this gate, until he did it kind of quietly, right right, and I remember him he was only 16 hands, but this time, by the time I got him through the gate quietly, he was 18 hands and he was solid as a statue and he was just staring off into the distance and I remember looking at him and wondering what the hell is going through your head horse?
Speaker 2I can't work you out right. What the hell is going through your head horse? I can't work you out right. And then I heard the tick, tick, tick of the electric fence shorting out. Scooter had metal shoes on. He was actually being electrocuted every time he went through that gate. Yet I made him do that multiple times until he walked through it, right? So think of that. You must have felt terrible, but I mean it wasn't on purpose.
Speaker 2Well, I did, well, I did. So I felt terrible about that, but I also just remember looking at him and just feeling completely and utterly hopeless and frustrated about how I get in your head. Anyway, what Gary did was release that I didn't have to worry about his head I had. What Gary did was release that I didn't have to worry about his head. I had to worry about my own, what I was doing. That's far easier to fix, far easier to fix. So that was my lesson. He was my lesson in the self-awareness and that thing that I had never considered that I could impact a horse like that. And that was straight. It was. That was complete and absolute ignorance. And I tried to think what was I thinking back then? And it was just like. That's how simple and limited my thoughts are of the situation, of what was going on between my horse. I had no, no, no perception, no idea at all that I had any impact on a horse.
Speaker 1And they should you're younger than me I believe you're younger than me, shelly but um, certainly, when I was growing up that none of this was considered. You know, I mean, how a horse feels, except for a few exceptional people that you know. We we kind of learn from now, even now, and you know, but certainly you know he's not listening hit him harder. You know, um, he's gonna have hit him harder. You know he's going to have him. Respect you, it's just in.
Speaker 1The same thing happened in the dog world. It was very harsh on dogs back in the day. The dog people caught up. It's getting much, much better. Horse people are just now starting to wake up that the horse can actually think and feel. But also, yeah, I just you know, I remember someone said to a mare I was riding she might like a French link bit, you know her, she might have a thicker palate. She's a Morgan, you know. And I was like thank goodness, like, oh, that that's great, I'll give it a try. And of course the horse was happier. But just being aware of, like what she was thinking and feeling, you know, you're like 20 years old and you know everything. Just being aware of like what she was thinking and feeling, you know, you're like 20 years old and you know everything.
Learning in Layers
Speaker 2Oh yeah, it was just like. There's just no, there's just vacantness. You know, like I could it was not in my like, like you know how you can only, your reality is constructed by what you know, and my knowing and my beliefs was so, so small, so limited, that that was my reality that I couldn't. It seems so common sense now when you, when you think about it and in fact I have to tell you this, barry, because my, my PhD is in human learning and the development of expertise, and there's this really fascinating thing and this to any professional out there I want you to tell you this little bit of an insight into human learning. Humans have to learn things in small increments, right? They have to learn this concept before they can take on this next concept. They can't go straight to that other concept. They've got to learn things in layers and there's a theory and it's the greatest learning theory that helps you have a lot of patience for humans. If you want to be patient with animals, you've got to be super patient with humans because we're complicated. So there's a theory called threshold learning, right, thresholds of learning, and we have to pass through these thresholds of lightbulb moments to be able to see one layer before the next layer can be illuminated and we can see the next layer. Right, that's how we learn. That's why humans are useless. We can sit down and we can tell them the whole thing in a lecture. We can explain it all out and they'll walk away and might learn a little bit. It's because your brain has to get concept by concept and only gets added on bit by bit in these layers.
Speaker 2But there's this really fascinating thing. I've got to tell you that when we pass a threshold, this really peculiar thing happens to us we completely forget we didn't know it before and that it was hard for us to understand. So that makes us completely impatient with everyone who hasn't know it before and that it was hard for us to understand. So that makes us completely impatient with everyone who hasn't got it yet, because we forget that. And that's the thing I tell people when you get it, just because you can see it. It's that whole theory of mind. At our and our kind of propensity we tend to think we could mind read people that what I see, you can see. We learn things in layers. It's hard for us. We need those light bulb moments or those threshold moments of being able to pass through over a threshold of understanding something, and then we forget it was difficult to know in the first place yeah, well, that's really, really true.
Speaker 1For example, I have four sons. They're grown up now, but growing up teaching them to tie their shoes and it'd be like so obvious to us no, just watch me, you'll. You can learn to tie this shoe right. But think how hard that is for a four or five year old because first of all, he's got to learn to manipulate the string and then he's got to learn to cross the string and then he's got to remember to yes, you know, whatever way you do it, two bunny ears or one bunny or whatever the theory. Yeah, um, having that patience, you know, because by the time you get that fourth kid, you're like I'm getting your velcro shoes, I don't care, you can wear them the rest of your life, because you're just having patience for someone else's learning journey.
Speaker 2Um, that's a really great thing that you're yeah, and and because we told someone, we just assume that they know it. It's just like no, they need a lot of repetit, they need to actually experience themselves. Humans are like that. Our superpower is, is our, we're completely adaptable, uh, creative creatures.
Speaker 2And if we didn't kind of how our brains work and in fact that's what gets us in trouble with horses is how our minds work and how much we think of things. We think horses think like us and they don't. We're so full of these thoughts and these kind of urges and emotions of things because we're programmed to like, we've evolved to like, adapt, adapt, adapt. So we can never be happy because we've got this instinct to keep changing, changing building, changing, worrying about things, wanting to fix that problem, that problem. So, yeah, I hope that makes people a little bit more patient with humans. But I love reflecting on my own naivety and ignorance, even though it mortifies me when I think and I suppose that's what's giving me purpose behind what I do and probably makes me a little bit different in the equestrian world, is my understanding of the human creature, the human side of it, and having that fascination about how humans learn about horses and like people, like hearing my story because, like mine is so bad.
Speaker 1Mine is really bad, we all have our stories, no doubt about that. Mine is really bad. We all have our stories, no doubt about that. Um, yeah, I have a mare that, um, I've had almost two years now, maybe three, three, two, three anyway. Um, they're from the wilds of montana, they're not mustangs, they're morgans, but they were passionate, they're out in giant pastures and not handle a lot.
Speaker 1And she came as a three-year-old and, um, worried about everything here, and she left a herd of 70 horses down to a herd of four or five. So then now they have, you know, 24, seven freedom. I mean, they're not stalled or anything like that. But she was worried you know, there's not enough horses here to protect us and I was afraid of her because she was defensive with her hind end and I was so worried she was going to always keep me in there. And then I just made up this whole story, this whole story about what she's thinking and what she's doing, cause I was afraid, you know. And then, like all every time I work with her, I'm afraid. And then she's like, what are we afraid of? Because she feels that and my trainer, who I'm, tiffany Stauffer, who I've had on my podcast, actually I'm really blessed, she lives nearby Came comes out to help me.
Speaker 1Know, the horse is like, yeah, no anxiety, I'm fine, nothing's bothering me. And then it's that realization oh, it's, it's me, I'm. I'm just projecting any scary experience I ever had getting hurt with a horse on this horse who's never hurt me, okay, she's never done a thing, yeah, you know. And then she got over her worry with time. You know, she got over her worry about, like, the new environment because I gave her a lot of time with no pressure to be there.
Speaker 1You know so. And now it's like, I'm not afraid of you anymore. I'm going to have common sense, but I can read your body language, you know, I can read what you're doing. I'm not afraid of you anymore. Now, when she gets around my trainer, she's even better, because Tiffany has no agenda and just, you know, like, understands her. She feels like, oh, it's you, thank goodness, this other person, but I, I love watching that. I'm aware of it now, and she's the only one of my seven horses that I even, like, was afraid of. You know, it's like why did I project all this human gunk onto this horse, who's really quite simple, you know, she's just really simple.
Speaker 2So I get it. Sorry, who's really quite simple, you know, she's just really simple, so I get it. Sorry, that was that's just being human as well. That you didn't trust her, that's the thing. You didn't trust her and you had to build. So what you've been, you've been hurt.
Speaker 1You never ever get hurt when you're young. And then you get older and you get hurt and you like, get really anxious about riding again, you know, and you're like, because I broke my pelvis on a horse, um, couple a couple years ago now, um, and you know, I recovered, I'm fine, right, but I had that anxiety inside of me like I can't afford to get hurt again.
Speaker 1That was really bad getting hurt, you know and uh no, that's the one, the one that I was afraid of is not trained yet. She's five, or coming five. So, no, she's five.
Speaker 1So Tiffany's going to be helping me and we're going to start her really, really slow, and Tiffany's going to ride her first yeah, no, that's really wise, that's being really sensible yeah, but this other, I just bought a horse a couple months ago, a month or two ago, and I gave her plenty of time to settle in another Morgan I have all Morgans and, um, she's 100% like I'm with you, fellas, I mean just so giving so sweet and I ride. Like I'm with you, fellas, I mean just so giving so sweet, and I ride her and I'm like I feel absolutely wonderful riding you, like she's giving me back my safety, my confidence, my you know everything that I needed. So I will feel better about the one. That's more scary, right, and it's all human. These horses are just being horses, you know.
Speaker 1So I really resonated and that's why I wanted to talk to you and have you as our guest, because I was resonating with what you were saying and your story brings true. So thank you for that. Yeah, okay, so if we were afraid? So one of my questions for you is how do we build confidence and us then to project on our horses? How do we build that confidence? What's your advice for that?
Overcoming Fear in Horse Training
Speaker 2Oh well, the thing is you've got to understand about confidence and what's actually making you feel vulnerable with a horse is very multifaceted. There's a number of factors and that's why it's just not one thing and that's why someone will get benefit from something and someone will try to do the same thing, like, just say, getting riding lessons. People say, well, go get some riding lessons and you know that might work for someone but it doesn't work for somebody else. And it's because you've got to understand what triggers that sensation of vulnerability within you. So it can be I kind of break it down and how I like to explain people is from like an equation that confidence equals your sense of competence okay, with the horse multiplied by trust, which is your sense of reliability in the horse, multiplied by time. Now, what time means? Time's important because time and repetition makes something familiar, and that is very important to get is a sense of familiarity with a horse, and familiarity that you're able to competently handle that horse doing that thing or that situation, and familiar with how reliable your horse is right. However, there's things that interfere with that being able to grow that sense of competence inside you as well as a sense of reliability inside you. There's things that can interfere with that. That's what needs to be understood.
Speaker 2The first thing is a common one can be a fear phobia. You can get fear. So if you have had an accident, your mind's going to grab onto that that this is a dangerous thing. So your subconscious self is going to want to protect you. And that's what the sensation of fear and discomfort is, because it's your subconscious self trying to keep you alive and it's saying to you step away, step away from the dangerous thing. And people can. What their brain latches onto as being unsafe is very fascinating. Sometimes it can be just the mounting a horse, sometimes it might be cantering a horse, sometimes it might be riding in a certain area. Or, as one of my clients, most fascinating case I ever had was a lady who had an accident and she'd actually fallen off and she'd gone unconscious. So she doesn't remember the accident at all.
Speaker 2So she felt, nothing about getting back on.
Speaker 2That was fine until she had to turn right and the horse going right and the sensation of the horse going right through her body made her panic. So that's what her brain had actually latched on to, um, as being the dangerous thing. So you have to navigate that and what you've got to do you've got to show your that part of your brain that you are safe, that you are safe. It's got to have that. Familiarity has to click in and you've got to repeat things. And I just get people just to group repeating, repeating repair and really acknowledging that feeling inside them that's being generated, because your brain will down regulate something if it's got evidence that you're okay. So it's finding what that is and consciously targeting it so that you can, so that your brain can identify that this is a safe activity, it's no longer dangerous.
Speaker 2But then there can be other things that are really interesting. There are things that can interfere with your sense of competence and getting reliability, and these are like what which I call. Inside us we get hidden false beliefs about ourself I'm not good enough, I'm not safe enough, I'm not likable enough. There's all these things that really hit at your um ideas of self-efficacy, about yourself, about being able to do things, and they're like your, like your childhood wounds or or things you've accidentally learned in life. Uh, things like which can be quite destructive.
Speaker 2Is, it's not and it's not uncommon for this thing, this feeling of responsibility that you have for the emotions of others, which leads to people pleasing behavior. People pleasing is quite an insidious thing that a lot of women can have, you know, thinking if we behave in a certain way, don't upset anything, we'll be liked, there will be no danger. And what happens? Because this gets triggered inside us, we start people pleasing the horse in our human way, you see, and that doesn't help any horse, because that whole thing of wanting back off, keep the horse happy, keep the horse happy does not actually keep the horse happy, because it gives the horse nothing to follow or understand what it's doing. So of course, it feels uncomfortable about a human that's shrinking all the time from them, um, and not being clear, so that can sabotage things.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, now there's some other big ones look, there's quite a few of them, uh. But there's other things that trigger sense of vulnerability in your body. Now this can be illness, injury, because you don't feel that sense of balance on a horse, and this is a big one for us women. It's only something that I actually realized in the last couple of years because of my age myself and the people around me and the age they're going through is perimenopause, because what it does on many levels, because it changes the sensation, because you see, we get triggered, not just what's coming on the outside, but what's happening to us on the inside and what happens when our hormones change is it actually changes around or you actually can lose muscle, so your sense of balance and your sense of how gravity affects you and everything completely changes, and so your sense of balance on a horse completely alters.
Speaker 1I had not thought about that.
Speaker 2Oh, it's massive. It is massive. And I go look at all my clients when did you lose your confidence? When did you, all my clients? When did you lose your confidence? When did you start having problems? When did you have your accident? It's all around the same time and it made me tie these together. Now I need someone to do some proper research on it. But you know, as being someone at the coalface, a practitioner in this area, any research are out there. I see that there is a correlation. It just needs to be, of course, investigated.
Speaker 2But there's a lot that goes on in a woman's body during the changes fluctuation, hormones.
Speaker 2It goes on a physiological level, plus also psychological level, plus also you. Everything's getting out of whack, which is setting off your nervous system in terms of things, because it's all completely changing from the familiar, and the familiar is your comfort zone. And when you, when your hormone profile changes, your entire body gets out of whack and this then changes the way that your body responds to balance on the horse or things like that. You can have overreactions or just your heart rate going up abnormally. It all triggers you and it all gets interpreted by your brain as fear, right, or fear or discomfort like that. So yeah, going into perimenopause and menopause is massive, and that and your horse riding and how you feel about your horse and your confidence levels around the horse are also one of the casualties for that and, again, like everything else to do with menopause, because we don't talk about it enough is that it becomes get something that gets as, um, you know, it gets hampered along the way because of that that's fascinating.
Speaker 1so my question then is so someone who's older gone through it? Do you adapt? I would hope that you would adapt, yes well, see, this is the thing it's like.
Speaker 2This is what you've got to understand. You learn to be confident and trust a horse. You learn it because you actually learn to not trust them and not be confident that you can reverse it. That's why I see it as an equation. You've got to target it. So, as soon as you know so what it is with my book that I've actually got a copy of it here because I was just making an audio book of it at the moment. That's my book and it's only a little book. Can you see that I deliberately made it little because I want someone to sit down and read it in one hit. And can I tell you it was very hard getting it that concise, to try to hit at the main points.
Speaker 1But it's been able to. We'll definitely have links to the book and stuff. We'll have it in the show notes, for sure.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, and it will actually be. I've got another edition that will be coming out as well because of more alert, Like this doesn't have in there the stuff about menopause. Yet I've just got I just title it under aging of what happens when you age and kind of thing, but menopause puts that on steroids. So what you've got to do is you've got to understand all the factors which are impacting your sense of competence with the horse. All of them. What are they right? Oh, your sense of reliability with the horse. So I believe in you know, increasing your skills. You've got to target your own health Like you've like. Just say with me I'm very conscious, I do a lot of strength training, all the things that have actually documented evidence of helping with menopause symptoms. Strength training is a massive one, Okay. Strength training is a massive one, Okay. Looking at your diet, you know Pilates, yoga is powerful things. Lifting some weights powerful things. All that, too, you've got to. You've got to change what you've done previously.
Speaker 2I recommend everyone. So what I focus on when I help people is I take them and their horse through what I call rebooting, which is just basically retrain their foundation. Okay, when I hand people those skills right to be able to do that. That's empowering. There's a principle called the Pareto Principle and it says that there's about 20% of the overall skill set of a particular job. You use 80% of the time. Well, the skills that you use to put a foundation of a horse and start a horse is that 80%. When I hand them that and I hand them the feeling of being able to influence I don't like the word control or even training can be looked down upon. We're always influencing our horses and our animals, even beyond, when it's not training, because people just look at training and they look at positive or negative reinforcement and all these type of things. No, no, in everything we do with our animals, we are influencing them, and so when I give key tools to be able to modify behavior, it gives them that greater sense of influence. So that feeds into that. So I always recommend that.
Speaker 2So there's things that you've got to. So basically, there's things that you can target towards the horse, like your horse skills, and there's also non-horse things you can do, you know. So you know a lot of people get benefit from hypnotherapy or doing. I did a great. I got a podcast myself called canna therapy and I did a podcast with um, a psychologist that actually practices EMDR therapy, which is a type of trauma therapy yes, and I personally had a lot of benefit from that.
Speaker 2So it's really what it is, Barbara. It's all about care of yourself. It's care of yourself it's physical and mental and emotional care of yourself is like your foundation to then build on top your skills to be able to influence the horse and your understanding of the horse things that I was saying I was lacking before with the scooter, not having any idea that this will transform your confidence and trust with the horse. And like, I am total living proof of that because by severe accident, that's really I've done that to on a bigger scale and I've gone from your quintessential amateur to a professional and I help people all around the world, and so that's pretty cool. So if I can do it like seriously, if I can do it like seriously, if I can do it, anyone can do it.
Speaker 1Right, it's attainable. Yeah, absolutely. This is really profound. I had no idea of the connection. I reflect back and the time in my life.
Speaker 1I'm like yeah yeah, so I get it. And also, you know, it's interesting to me, I think, the most frustrating time at least my peers when I read, you know, other people's comments and things. They get a horse, finally they start riding because they finally have the money or the time. You know, maybe they didn't and they get to a certain point and they want to get better, and then everything falls apart for them and they feel so much shame because, like I'm not, I'm not, you know, my horse doesn't follow me around, or whatever the latest, because, like I'm not, I'm not, you know, my horse doesn't follow me around, or whatever the latest.
Speaker 1something makes them think the way it's supposed to be. I mean, of course, we're all going to be kind and build relationship that's what this show is about with all animals, right, that's not what I'm saying, it's just the um. You know, I don't know what it's like for men, cause I don't I'm not inside men's heads at all but, um, I just know a lot of women especially. They get to a certain age. They learn a lot of things. You know, like new information.
Speaker 1We're going to go, and then we get out there and then we think we've messed up, you know. And then we feel shame, and then we're like I don't want to try anymore. And so by saying like, look, you can help yourself get through this and that'll help your horse by understanding what's going on, that's gratifying. It's like, oh good, there's hope. I'm not the only one that feels this way. This is how I can work on it and that way, you know, it'd be great to like visit your. You know, if people are interested, we'll have all of Shelly's information available and how she can help.
Speaker 2And do you to America to do clinics? Can you get your view? Most likely will. It's something that I've got. There's so much. I've built so many communities here in Australia. It's like, when are you going to come to America or go to New Zealand or go to Europe? And the thing is like when I find I've got to find a spot to put it in because it will mean one of my communities here would miss out. But I do plan on because I've made a lot of connections in the states, um, and America is one place that I would love to visit. Well, there's certainly a need and I believe, a reception.
Speaker 1I think people are just becoming more and more, uh, wanting to have a better relationship with their horses, with their dogs, with you know, um, I think they're making it. It seems to me like making an effort, uh. So, yeah, but we could talk to you for hours, but we've got some more things to cover, that's okay.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm just, you know you're worth another podcast for sure, because there's just I'm already like wow, you know, yeah, no, there's so many avenues you can go, when, when you can look and I said this is what I'm so fortunate about, but also, barbara, everyone can then feel good because you got to remember that I had this knowledge, so I had this, and the reason why I've been able to be accelerated in being out of my horse skills is because I had this massive background in learning.
Speaker 2So when, I worked out that horses just learned as well. It was like that silos. My world kind of collided and that's why I was able to go so far. But you've got to remember that me here wasn't expert in learning but was not teaching or training my horse, because I didn't see it Like. That's how bad, that's how ignorant I was, that I couldn't even apply my own knowledge until it got thrown in my face.
Speaker 1I think we all have experiences like that. I'm a much more better dog trainer and I don't even train dogs, I just train animal actors for set, you know, for like commercials and videos, and I train animals for set. I'm much more in tune with how the dog is feeling than I was 20 years ago Not that I was a terrible thing and I never mistreated them, but I'm much more. I keep learning and learning and learning, and that's just better for me.
Speaker 2That's your expertise that keeps getting laid on. That's why.
Speaker 2that's because you're an expert, and when you're an expert, things that you see become very easy, and then your brain's got the capacity to see more and more and more and that's what I was saying about those thresholds is that someone has to start off seeing simple things, and I remember I used to just be able to see a behavior in a horse or a dog, so I just a behavior, that's all I could see, and then I started seeing all the color around that behavior. You know, and then you learn more about it. So you get to interpret it more. Yeah, you get to interpret deeper and deeper and then your expertise kicks in and it puts everything on kind of automatic pilot, so you can just see something and know it because it's going in through the faster cycle through your brain of being able to detect it. It's very cool.
Speaker 1Well, just briefly, your book Buying and Supporting the New Horse, the Essential Guide. You know, a lot of people, at least it seems to me get a new horse and, within a couple of days, like we're going to get on him and ride him, and now, oh wait, he's not like he was. Well, what happened? You sold me a bad horse. Well, of course not. You just took him away from his whole life and expected him to, you know, be able to, and some horses are really stoic and they're going to hide with you know, kind of like just go, okay, that's my life, but other horses are like no, I need a little time and they all deserve some time. So what is your? You know? Just kind of briefly, cause I think we should all go get the book. I'm going to get the book.
Speaker 2Well at the book. Um, well, I've got to be honest, barbara, hold tight on that book because I'm just in the matter of re, actually re. Um, because I said I've learned more. I'm actually adding to it. In fact, I created another resource because a couple well back in, back in July god I was going to say a couple of weeks ago, it was actually a few months ago I wrote a blog that went viral because I, I and I was just getting frustrated by people just not getting it and because I come from a health background, I just sometimes my biggest articles that I that I write are things that I write in like five minutes, and I wrote this, this article, in five minutes. I called it new home syndrome.
Speaker 2Yeah, new home syndrome you might have even found me from it because it went totally viral. It still gets shared hundreds of times per day. It's really quite fascinating. But it got people's attention and it's interesting because I've written about this before but it was something about giving it, uh, giving it like a medical sounding name that made everyone beeline for it. And that's interesting about people. But people don't understand and it's a combination of not understanding the horse as a species and how they're wired and not understanding stress and how stress compounds and how stress can become chronic and stress can lead to other you know pathologies or physiological or psychological problems down the track, and so I coined this term new home syndrome and it went off and it was all about to understand that we take a horse that is wired to be a herd animal that works as a collective in the wild. That's how they've evolved. They're a herd animal, they work as a team. It's none of this dominant stuff. It's they work as they work as a team. It's none of this dominant stuff. They work as a team as their families, and I recommend everyone out there.
Speaker 2The greatest thing, barbara, I ever did was go and spend a week trekking in the bushlands here in Australia observing wild horses. It blew my mind. Do you know what that made me feel like? Do you know what I felt? I felt like I had worked with someone for 40 years and had never bothered asking them where they lived, who their family members was and what they did on the weekend. I treated this animal like a work colleague and I knew about them, but not really about them. It was the most touching experience to see that horses. They live in families and they are truly families and they work together, regardless whether they're a bachelor band or a family group of stallion mares and young horses. It was very touching, but that's how horses have evolved.
Speaker 2Yet we go and pluck them out, isolate them and do things to them that is completely and absolutely unnatural and have no concept of the ramifications that has to that animal. And in fact, the more you learn about the horse, the more I learn about them, the more I'll tell you that they are the most gentle animal on the planet and that what we do to them is extreme, extreme, um, and we think we know them in that state and we don't. And I say it's like this. It's like it's like aliens come down to earth. They go to a lunatic asylum. They walk around for a bit, look at the poor people that are in the lunatic asylum and go back up to their planet and go, yeah, I checked out the humans, the humans, yeah, I know all about them. And it's like, yeah, no, you know, you can see the ones that are that are, you know, very affected by stress. That is not a good kind of way to think. You know humans by looking at humans that are in an extreme situation. So that's what I said we don't. We think we know them.
Speaker 2So we take these horses that have been, that are at a home where everything's familiar. They've been able to cope with this unnatural situation they've been wired for in their life because they've got familiar with it, how they're handled, what they eat, everything like that. Because they've got familiar with it, how they're handled, what they eat, everything like that, who they've connected with. Because people think, even though a horse is isolated in the yard, that they're not connecting with the other horses. They are, they absolutely are. And we only know that when we take two horses to a show and they become stuck to each other like glue and we get annoyed by that. But they're just horses being horses. Anyway, we take that animal and we go completely change its environment, an animal that has been wired to live in one spot and to know that spot really, really well, so that any small change in that environment they're onto, because is that a rock or is that a big cat?
Speaker 1That's what they're onto, because is that a rock or is that a big cat right?
Speaker 2that's what they're wired for. Then we go and completely turn their world upside down and set their sensory system on fire as it tries to work out am I safe, am I safe, am I safe? And try to navigate that and that amount of stress and that, even if you just see the cognitive load on that sensory system to try to process all that right. And then you got the other effect that their um food or change the diet and their guts. You know their horse's digestive system is the core and it's one thing. You've got to understand the impact on that and their hindgut and how that drastically affects everything from there. And this horse is going through this absolute tumultuous experience and we don't appreciate it and we've got to manage them through that and that's why, of course. So what happens is?
Speaker 2I worked out that besides, you know all the people that were coming towards me I could correlate with like kind of the age of perimenopause and that was that I was correlating. Also, the horses that people were having trouble with were horses that were really they'd acquired them in recent times and they hadn't been able to get on with the horse and they all would tell a story of how the horse was misrepresented to them or you know they didn't buy what they expected, etc. And the thing is, is that that horse that they went and trialed, or they rode beforehand, when they rode it after, the ghost of their owner was still on the horse, when the horse was in its own environment and could cope with your little differences? That when you take that horse out of there and you put it in chaos where it knows nothing, you're riding and you're dealing with a stressed version of that horse. That is not that horse, that is a stress. That's like someone judging you on the worst day of your life and saying, well, they're a little difficult to get on with. Look at them all tense, you know it's like we don't get it. And so, just like with confidence and trust and building it within yourself, how you got to be conscious of that so you can put a spotlight on it, so you can be strategic. Right, when you get a new horse that comes to your home, right, you've got to stop them getting stuck in this swirl of chronic stress which can cause ramifications down the track. You got to manage it and there's a number of things that you can do about that.
Speaker 2Just be aware of it number one that this horse is going through a lot and some horses are less affected by it than others. And there's a number of inherent traits to each individual horse how much they've been exposed to the world before their own inherent abilities to process sensory information, because they're all varying abilities for that. If all horses were the same and didn't varying their ability to process their environments and stress, they wouldn't live in a herd, they'd be a lone animal. But they use each other and they're knitted together by their differences. That's why they knit together is weaknesses and strengths.
Speaker 2So they're all different in how they handle it. Some can process it faster, quicker and and come to a conclusion and work out they're safe, and some can't. So, um, you're all dealing with with the horses going through that. So, being conscious of that and manage it through that to allow your horse that new home syndrome's, you know going to be a small transient thing of a few days, all going to be going on years and years and years until you have behavioral problems and and you know the horse has terrible laminitis or terrible gut issues or you know, then it's musculature and everything's gone to pot, all because of the chronic stress it, uh, the stress that initially got triggered on that move yeah, oh, absolutely.
Understanding Communication With Horses
Speaker 1Um, yeah, I do like that. I've learned to let horses have time. Yes, absolutely, I give them time, yeah, and uh, so it's it's, it's pretty fun and it's fun to watch them work as a herd and work it out. You know, yeah, if it's where, and uh, the friends they make, and I mean you always knew that, but it's like being with more open eyes yes, when you see it, it's just like that's so necessary and just also.
Speaker 2This is the other thing, barbara, that I'm very into, which people are just oblivious to, absolutely oblivious to that. Horses link, um, you know, certain things to people, places, things. So, just because you know, we all think, oh, the horse leads, we just lead it and it's like no, we all lead differently, we all put a halter on differently, we all feel differently on their back, we all pick up the reins differently. We're all different and some horses are more subjective about that differences than others, because what we've got to understand is that we're communicating to them via when we're working with a halter on them or riding them. We're working on a touch, form of language, and we all touch, we all feel different. Right, we all feel different. So I say you've got to introduce your way and your signature, your touch signature, to that horse or your visual. We also use like a sign language with them as well, that they're learning to read and understand what we expect them to do.
Speaker 1And we just take these horses and we just assume they know.
Speaker 2We don't even think that that they're like. It's like taking someone that's hearing impaired and just assuming they know what we our own form of like you know, our own form of sign language. It's like no, no, no, it's got to be. You've got to standardize it for them. You've got to introduce yourself and this is the way we do things and stop that horse being confronted and trying to work you out, as it's trying to work out everything else as well, and so people don't know that they get into a conflict with the horse. They then say this horse doesn't know anything. It was like right, it just doesn't know you and your way, Take some time. You've got to pretend it doesn't know anything. This is how I lead, this is how we tie, this is how I pick up your feet, this is how I put your tack on on. This is how I ask you to change. So I ask you to go and you're pretending they know nothing and you're teaching it to them and you're imprinting yourself on them.
Speaker 1You've got to imprint yourself yeah, brilliant, yeah, no, I understand that. I with the young horses, um, uh, they hadn't had their feet handled a lot, because there's three young horses I got from montana, yeah, so the young horse, I was very proud of myself. I could walk up to that yearling and out in the pasture, no halter, no lead, you know, and I could get her to pick up all four feet and I was very pleased, like you know. Oh, look, she trusts me because she'll lift her feet up out here. And then, when it came time to have the farrier come, she was like I can't lift up my feet. And we said, gosh, I've been working with her every day picking up her feet. And Tiffany was there helping me, the trainer, and she said where were you doing it? And I said, well, out in the pasture, did you have a halter? No, she said everything is different.
Speaker 2You have a halter on top.
Speaker 1You're in the barn. Now Molly here is going to trim her feet. Molly's a new person. Everything is different. You can't expect her to understand A means B over here, that it's the same. That's a human thing that we generalize our learning. Yeah, so I just you know you and Tiffany would get along great because you're absolutely on the same page. Same thing happens, but in a different way. Because dogs are different than horses.
Speaker 1Because I'll go work a dog on set and a dog is highly trained by his owner, right, he's got all the tricks and he's trained. Lovely dog Enjoys being on set because he's going to get cheese and it's going to be fun. And you know, and I'll, I'll start working with the dog because I know what the cameraman or the photographer wants. So I'll work with the dog and I will give off just my own body language, like I don't, I don't change it for each dog's signal, what he's learned. Okay, and the dogs? Because they're wired differently. They are wired to want to work cooperatively in a group, they want to work with people, they want to please you. This is how we socialize them and how they're wired, god figures out. Oh, okay, I get it. You're asking me differently. But if I sit, I'm going to get a piece of cheese and they learn it like.
Speaker 1And the owner goes like well, I don't, he doesn't. You know, this is how you teach him this and that. And I went like no, he's so quick, he'll figure me out and we'll have a good relationship in a matter of moments. And, and you know, um, he'll, he'll grasp what I'm asking him. So I adapt to the dog. Each one, but also the dog, at the same time, is adapting to me. Yeah, I'm curious are horses able? Maybe they don't do it in the same way, but what you're saying is give the horse time to adapt to the way you're doing it. You know, like, like, give him the time to think instead of, uh, getting angry that he didn't read your language, like speaking to him in a foreign language, almost yeah, and can you?
Canine and Equine Behavior Differences
Speaker 2I'm going to answer these, barbara, but can you remind me that I want to ask you a question? Because I really want to ask you a question. Do I think horses can adapt? Horses can adapt and they can be on the lookout to adapt if they've learnt how to learn from you and how to work you out and they work out. Say, in the first sessions with a horse, I'm also teaching them that I communicate with them and they can work me out. So after this is repeated a few times, they start working out that, ah, you're trying to tell you're, you're communicating with your, I can and I can work you out Right, and you see them start hunting it, right, you can see them be aware and it's like, ah, this is different, don't know, but I can work this out.
Speaker 2What do you want, human, what do you want? You can see that, but it's not like a real, you've got to and normally what happens? That's because I'm aware of it Most people are just assuming the horse knows and of course the horse just gives up on people and you can see that the horses just they dissociate from themselves until the back corner of the paddock, into the distance, because they're having to shut out the human in front of them because they're just. They're just a wall of, they're just a bundle of chaos that they're having to tolerate and try to work it out. But this is my question. I got to you, barbara, because I have a belief that it's our relationship with dogs that can actually give us a false sense of competency with horses right.
Speaker 2And I'm going to tell you what I mean. It's just like a horse. I feel like you've got to really prove to that horse that you can be navigated and you are no harm. That's what I feel like has to be up front to most of horses, because most of horses will come with a bit of baggage. Maybe if you've had a horse and I have had these horses as well that you've had from day one, that learned that you're okay and that's all right.
Speaker 2But the vast majority of horses are a bit skeptical of human beings.
Speaker 2Unlike dogs, they're a little bit more hardwired to maybe, uh, to be, have an affinity for us.
Speaker 2However, there's this other thing, barbara, because I believe that, um, dogs and just tell me if I'm wrong I want once you just don't agree with me, you just tell me how it is. But dogs, when they get a little bit worried, are more likely to fall into a bit of an appeasement behaviour with a human and we associate all that jumping and licking and kissing and all that. It's like, oh, they love us, they love us, they love us. That makes us feel good. But with horses, of course, when you make them feel threatened, they do the complete opposite. They're like backtracking at you or they don't. They're not flipping into that necessarily those appeasement behaviors that we don't know if they're still stress, but we interpret them with our human eyes as being love and affection and want and need and all those things we love. Yet the horse, when they get stressed, will normally flip into either flight or a bit of fight you know, or they'll shut down and we feel the rejection and failure from that.
Speaker 2But the dog, the dog is telling us, even though we're still stressing it, it's having this opposite effect. Is there any? I have this. That's my theory, because I believe that dogs actually mess up our relationships with our horse because they're so. Dogs are so such gifts from the gods you know of so kind to us.
Speaker 1No, what are your thoughts on that? I'm not an expert on that at all, but I think the behaviors that I've talked to would absolutely agree, because those are the signs of stress that I'm looking for on set. When the dog starts to pant and and that's a sign of anxiety, okay, uh, when his, his ears go back, it's a sign, you know, he looks soft and friendly. Where it's a sign of stress and where you're exactly right about that, the dogs are ultimate people pleasers. How will I, you know, what can I do and how can I please you, at least most of the time, unless you get into behaviors like fear, biting and aggression, which which comes from lots of things.
Speaker 1But with horses, you're right, horses don't sit there and give you the googly eyes and bow down and show submissive behaviors. No, no, and they show affection in a much different way, if at all. I mean, they do. I do think they show affection, but it's more of a horsey way and it's much more subtle. Uh, yeah, so, and I don't, you know, I don't know, I just I know which horses really like to do that and the other ones who I respect and and they're just not so much into it and that's okay. Like, don't run up and hug strange horses, don't hug them. Yes, don't put their nose. Those poor horses, how would you like it if I wouldn't grab at your nose? That's like a privilege, you know? Um. So I teach them with the little ones that, like, just wait, put your hand out flat, let them smell you, you know, because all they want to do is pet that velvet nose, and we all get that. But that has to be with permission from the horse.
Understanding Animal Behavior Through Observation
Speaker 1You know yes and that takes time. Um, so you're, I think you're absolutely right and and that we get frustrated that my dog is whining. Yeah, he knows the clock Daylight saving has messed him up and he's like no, I know you're a half hour late, you're fine, you're fine, but anyway, yes, exactly what you're saying I think is true. Dogs are. See, because I trained cats as well and I don't train cats because you can't train cats.
Speaker 1You can encourage cats to do the behavior you want and the cat's going to do it or he's not going to do it and there's no way to be like you can't force it. You probably could force a dog, but it wouldn't be kind. Certainly can't force a cat. So it's all a shape, it's all a shaped agreement. You sit here and you wear this silly costume because that's what they want you to do for, you know, sell a Halloween sweater piece of Turkey and we're having fun, you know. And so I choose my cats really carefully and I also make it like and I also go, cats done, or the same thing Dog is done. You know, like I call it, I just go go. We're not going to push this animal over threshold. You talked about thresholds in a different way because these are stress thresholds. So, and the same thing with horses. Then we have to be respectful of of who they are as horses, but we expect them to be like dogs. That's kind of the point you were making.
Speaker 2That's right and that's because I used to consider myself a real animal. I identify as a real animal lover and an animal person because my dogs love me, my cats love me. I had all this evidence. And then what's happening with my horse? And it just kind of added to the whole shame, feeling of failure. Whereas now with my eyes, even about dogs, it's like I had this moment, like I was reading a Patricia McConnell book, on the other end of the leash, which is a great book. I think every person that owns an animal should read that book.
Speaker 2And I'd come to the bit about that horses, that dogs, that we're primates and our natural inclination is want to hug things, kick things. You know, grab it, hug it, and that dogs don't necessarily like that. And I remember reading that and going that's interesting. But then I got up and my dog was next to me and I did my automatic habit of hugging and kissing him and for the first time I saw him recoil. I saw him go like, and I remember I stood back and I was like oh my God, you don't like that. It was such a shock to see it. It was such a shock. So now I can see it. No, and it was like, wow, you don't like that. And then I had to find it and of course I read and I studied it. It's just like what do they like? And I discovered that he loves me touching him, you know under here, and yeah, he taught me that. But once you see it, you can't unsee it of what I was interpreting.
Speaker 1Very true, it's an ongoing struggle. We run into this on set all the time. Okay, and I have to fight with the clients. Okay, we want the model to hug the dog and I go. Okay, I only have two or three dogs that actually sort of like that and that's your only choices.
Speaker 1I'm not going to bring in some dog that might behave but he won't like it. I'm not going to do that to the dog. You know it's not fair to the dog and so you know. Your golden retriever tends to tolerate that. Some of them seem to really like it. Your Jack Russell terrier not so much. You know he's a different mind. He's going to be doing something else.
Speaker 1But I fight that. It's like they go. We want to show, you know, they don't understand that this isn't the thing that dogs necessarily like. And then the worst part that happens is they get someone who doesn't like dogs and the dog goes okay, you want me to hug him and he's hugging me and he hates me and it's just like.
Connecting With Calm Willing Confident Horses
Speaker 1You know why do you do this? So I'm trying to educate my clients, but I won't. I make it a general rule Like I like your shot, I like my job, but I like my animals more and if you're asking me to do something that stresses them out, you know you got it, we're not going to do it, and so I'm. I'm really lucky that they listen. I mean it's so much better. But it's because I know better. 30 years ago I might've been like, yeah, hug the dog. Just, he's fine, hug the dog, you know what I mean. Like I've, I've learned. So I carry, I carry bad, like, oh you know, I wish I had known, but at least I grew and learned, you know and I want to get better so but yeah well, um gosh, this has been so cool.
Speaker 1We didn't even get to the those questions I sent you, um, and I don't want to take any more of your time, but I feel like you answered a lot of them as as we were talking, so I feel good about that. So, a, please come to United States. I will host you here in Wisconsin so I can be your Midwest connection. Okay, awesome.
Speaker 2Yeah, that'd be great.
Speaker 1I just I think, oh my gosh, people would so bad, especially in your angle, that you're talking about how women and how we change and how we feel and the guilt we carry, and I think there's probably a lot of guys who are like what?
Speaker 2No, they wouldn't have an you know go over their heads, not that they have to.
Speaker 1It just made me feel a little bit better, like, wow, that's right, because I relate and I'm sure you know, and now I feel better. Okay, so that's why I was a little anxious. Maybe my balance wasn't as good. You know things like that.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's right. Your habit of wiring got tweaked by it. Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I feel really great now having this horse, that I'm building my confidence back on. Yeah, I mean, I really feel she was a gift from God. So you know I cry happy tears when I ride her because I feel so much relief. You know that's awesome, yeah, so thank you for that. But first, so how do we find you? You have a wonderful podcast called Canter Therapy yeah, canter Therapy podcast, and you've got some books and you've got this blog, so what's like the clearinghouse. How do we find you so we can get all in first and show up?
Speaker 2Yes, so if you go to my website, which is wwwofcourse all one word, which is calmwillingconfidenthorsescomau, because I'm in Australia, then that has all my details about me, about my courses and resources, because I have courses and resources, as well as my books.
Speaker 1Well, this is great, because if we're not in Australia, at least we can benefit. We can still do all this. Yeah, yeah, I have a lot of trouble with postage internationally.
Speaker 2The postage has just changed recently and it costs twice as much as the book for the postage to send it. So I just make things electronic so people can like download it themselves and access it. So yes, I've got a lot of resources and I write a lot of um, a lot of blogs, um, I love I write. I write about my journey. Actually, if you start at the start of my blogs and read up, you can kind of track my evolution in my understanding, which is quite fascinating.
Speaker 1Yeah, so I've got all that. You're on social media too.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm on social media, yeah, so I just yeah, I'm on Facebook, which is Dr Shelley Appleton, calm Willing, confident Horses. That's my page. I then have a group called Calm Willing, confident Horses. I do have a membership group, which is where people interact with me. So I had my courses, which you know they're quite expensive because people work with me, one-on-one with them but I wanted to create something that was accessible to everybody. So I created this membership group that I still create lots of resources for and I engage with.
Speaker 2I've created this most beautiful community of all these different disciplines of people that you know. I'm able to get people together where we don't fight about ideologies, even though people might subscribe to ideologies. We all respect that, so I like that. I'm able to create that kind of environment. Yeah, so that's my membership society. There's information on my website and I'm also trying, because I've got this insight into human learning and a real interest in how people learn to work with horses. I've even got a course for that as well for professionals or people that are just interested in learning the fascinating way that people learn about horses. So I have everyone other trainers come and learn from me. That's called my question educators program. Um, so, yeah, that's. That's quite an interesting thing that I do as well. Uh, on an Instagram as well. At at calm, willing, confident horses, I have a massive 180 people that follow me on Instagram. Instagram's only something recently that I've gone. Okay, I've got to try to work this out I don't know writing.
Speaker 2You see, I like long writing, essays and stuff like that. But the world is not kind of getting that. So it's like, okay, I'll adapt, I'll create some content for um the gen, like at my generation x, and we read, that's all good, we read stuff, we're happy with that. But I know other generations slightly different so I have to adapt. So that's what I'm doing on Instagram well, that's great.
Speaker 1No, that it um. That's how I, well I found, like I said on Facebook, which is my generation, yeah, mine too.
Speaker 2I've really enjoyed this chat and learning about your expertise as well. That was, that was brilliant. I've always wanted to talk to someone about my theory on dogs no, you're, you're exactly right.
Speaker 1It's, it's very true. Um, dogs are people pleasers. That's how they survived all these years. They were one of the first, one of the first things to be domesticated, right? So how did they do that? By hanging around the fires and, you know, going for the food, and then getting closer um to the people, and then not biting them or causing harm, and then they started to realize how good they food, and then getting closer to the people, and then not biting them or causing harm, and then they started to realize how good they are. And then, of course, look what we've done with our breeds of dogs.
Speaker 1We've made them more and more like babies you know, like we've pushed in their faces and we've made their eyes bigger and you know all kinds of you know compared to original dogs, because that's a trait we like, you know, and because I don't have like a little dog you carry around like a little purse dog and I have, I mean okay, each his own, but I mean that's. You know I have a hard. I'm going to go there. People get mad at me but they are all people pleasers, those little dogs, and God bless them. But you know I've got border colonies.
Speaker 2So what do I know?
Speaker 1yeah, awesome um, thank you so much for uh taking the time today, and I encourage everyone to to go and look for shelly's information one more time.
Speaker 2Your website calm and clear for us yes, it's wwwall one word, this is all one word calm, willing, confident horsescomau. But if you do type in dr shelly appleton into uh google, it'll come up as a google search too.
Speaker 1There you go, and we'll also have all the information on our things like that. Very okay. Well, that's great. Thank you so much much.
Speaker 2No worries. Thank you, Barbara. See you later.