Understanding Dogs in a Human World - Heather Mishefske S4 E 30

In this episode of The Empathetic Trainer, I talk with Heather Mishefske of Embark Dog Training School.

I’ve spent my whole life with herding dogs. Then I got an Australian Terrier… and realized pretty quickly that my usual way of doing things wasn’t going to work.

This little guy has opinions.

So I went looking for help, and that’s how I found Heather.

We talk about what it’s like to live with dogs in a very human world, and why so many of the struggles we see make more sense when you look at things from the dog’s side.

Heather works with dogs and their people every day. What I appreciate most is how she helps people understand the dog in front of them, instead of trying to make every dog fit the same approach.

If you’ve ever had a dog that didn’t respond the way you expected… you’ll probably recognize this conversation.

https://www.empathetic-trainer.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Hi. I'm Barbara O'Brien. I'm an animal trainer and photographer, and I'd like to welcome you to the empathetic trainer.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Hi. Welcome back. Today I'm talking with someone I was lucky to find because I needed help. I've spent my whole life with herding dogs, and then I got an Australian terrier. And yeah, this little guy right here, turn him around for you. This little guy is a whole nother thing. I just want you to know. He's no he's not a border collie. Um, this little guy has opinions, and the way I normally train wasn't working. So I went looking for someone who really understands this, and that's how I found Heather Meshewski. She owns Embark Dog Training School in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. And this is what she does every day, working with dogs and the people who are trying to live with them. Now, Kip here is in one of her classes, and I'm I go to class and I keep thinking, okay, this makes sense. These people are really dog-centric. They they feel really aligned with how I feel about how we communicate with dogs and how we ask them to be in our lives. So it was really great to find the school. Uh Heather's a certified trainer and behavior consultant. She's worked with thousands of dogs, and she hosts a podcast, A Dose of Dog. But this is what she really does is she helps people understand the dog in front of them living in a very human world. So we're going to talk about all that. Heather, thank you. And thank you for coming on the podcast. But I'm going to take poor Kip, who's had enough of being on my lap, and put Kip in his crate right next to me here. So everyone just bear with me a moment while I make noise, terrible noise, and let Kip go right in this crate right next to me. Kip absolutely needed an intro. Yeah, he told we all have to understand he's not a border collie. There we go. Okay. Whole nother thing, that dog. Tell him opinion. Oh, yeah. He's under the crate, and I'm alone. And whoa! Oh, and the most ungodly sounds, Heather. So you feel my pain. You understand. And he's a teenager.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

He's he's how old is he, Barbara? He's eight months old. Oh, yeah. He is in the holds of the teenager brain.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Yeah, yeah. I raised four sons, and I thought, what did I do this for? I've got another baby. And he's just this is so interesting. Yeah. No, but uh, we're really enjoying the school very much. Full disclosure, as I mentioned in my intro, I go to Heather's uh school in in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. Um and so if you're in that local area for sure, this is the gal that you this is the place you want to go. Oh thank you. Listen to listen to Heather's podcast because boy, we can learn a lot. Now I have to take away noisy topics playing with live Toddcast. Sorry, Kitty. Just relax there. What a good boy. As long as he can see me, he's fine. Okay. So um, so to start off with, if someone asked you what you do, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 3:14

You know, a lot of people say, Oh, you're a dog trainer, that's so fun. You get to work with dogs every day, which yes, absolutely, that's amazing. However, dogs don't drive here themselves, so they come with humans. Um, and you know, people think I train dogs, and I I do love train the training part of it, like actually working with an animal, but mostly I teach people. I mean, that's really what I do is I kind of have two learners. And I I just heard recently on a on a podcast, there's a podcast that I listened to with um two veterinary behaviorists, and actually they hosted another veterinary behaviorist on that podcast, and she said, uh, this is the only profession where you're teaching someone to do your job. I was like, Oh kind of. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I mean, I guess I would say that I teach people how to teach their dogs and help their dogs kind of live in this world that's very human-centered, and it's not set up for dogs, it's not specifically friendly sometimes to our dogs. And so, how can they kind of navigate, navigate, and advocate for their dogs kind of through their whole lives to just help them feel safe in this environment? I think that's kind of the biggest part. I mean, we take them into our lives and we kind of throw them in this very human world and kind of expect them to do okay. And it's kind of amazing how they actually do okay most of the time. But I would say, I mean, my biggest I guess, I guess if I look at what I do day-to-day is really just coaching people and and getting them to understand their dog. I mean, that's such a huge part of living with a species that doesn't speak our language.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

That's very, very true. And uh, there's a real parallel here for me as well, because I understand what you're saying because horses is the exact same thing. Now, horses are a flight animal, dogs are pack animal, so they're not the same. But but the way that we force well, this is the way it is, the horses need to live in our world. Yeah, and um, so having them feel safe, because they're a dangerous animal when they're not feeling safe, is is just you know hugely important. And so I'm the the parallel there is very much the same. But more of us own dogs than horses naturally. And so having what you say about safety, so a dog does you know, that's really that's really the point, isn't it? Part of the key, so they can feel comfortable in their own skin, so they can feel comfortable with you.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

I mean, that's the ultimate health, right? Like that's the ultimate like health parameter. Like, do you feel safe in the world you live in? And because holy cow, when you don't, that's really stressful.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

For humans too. For humans too, yeah. Any creature. Right. Well, any we're all mammals, you know. So the cat, the horse, the you know, it's it's the same. Um, well, then I'm really curious because um you've been doing this for a little while. Uh what kind of how did how did you end up here? How did I end up here?

SPEAKER_00 6:04

So, you know, I I I mean, I if like in all truth, if I look to even as a kid, I think like the biggest piece that my parents really instilled in me was curiosity. And I feel like even as an adult, like I'm curious about a lot of things, um, nature particularly, and animals and things like that. So when I was a kid, I started in horses in 4-H, and I begged for a dog, like, please, I want a dog, please, I want a dog. And my parents said the day that dog does not get walked or fed, like it's going back. And I was like, I promise. And you know, as a 10-year-old, I mean, do you believe them? Because they're 10. You know, they promise they're gonna clean their room every day if they can get the thing, but then they don't always do it. So I promised that I would I would be this animal's caretaker and I got a springer spaniel. Um, and I started in 4-H, so I was really involved in 4-H as a kid. So I got involved right away with her in 4-H dog training and started taking classes, um, which is really crazy because as an adult, my instructors as a 4-H kid came back to my classes, which was like, you know, I still called them Mrs. So-and-so and Mrs. So-and-so. Um yeah, totally full circle. And I just really got involved then. I mean, I guess honestly, when I was a kid, I was like mildly obsessed with dogs. I mean, I had remember the AKC dog book that had all the breeds in it. I mean, I was obsessively like looking through that. I worked at the Chippa shelter um every most nights, my parents would like drop us off after school. And one of my very best friends, um, her and I would go down and we would buy Carl Budding ham in the little packages. And we'd go, we would go train dogs at the shelter and we were just obsessed with it. And it's it's funny to look back now because Sue, my um dearest one of my dearest friends in life, um, she's the VP of Guide Dogs for the Blind in Portland. So both of our lives kind of went into the dog world. My other very best friend from a child owns a pet store outside of Atlanta, which is also kind of funny that we kept with that that theme. Um, but I started training bandy was my springer's name. And then I got involved with like doing some obedience, doing some junior showmanship. Um, I did a I had a grooming business in my parents' basement while I was 13. I probably wasn't good at like dog walker, child sitting.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Yeah, I was walking dogs for 25 cents or 50 cents, you know, depending on how long I took them up. I just wanted to walk the dogs.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

I didn't care about them. Yeah. And look at that's like a career. I mean, you that's a career now, people like professional dog walkers.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Like 11 or 12. It's the biggest thing ever. Because my parents didn't let me have any pets at all. So other people's dogs. So I understand Heather, and I showed them how age other people's dogs, you know, so until I got my own. But so yeah, that's like it's funny because when we met um at the school, because I we had we knew about each other, but we hadn't met in person. When we met in person, we were so excited to talk to each other because I felt like we we had so much in common. And my husband said, You were like two squirrels running up and down a tree. You were so excited to talk to each other because we have a similar energy and similar.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

That is exactly how people will describe me. So that that that tracks, yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

That's so wonderful. So then uh your little springer spaniel was kind of your origin story.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah, she was kind of the dog I showed in obedience. I showed her in NKC Obedience, I got a CD on her, I did junior showmanship. She wasn't a like confirmation bread springer, but I did junior showmanship with her, um, both in 4-H, and I did like the state 4-H dog show and all that stuff. And then did some stuff in AKC, and then just kind of was. I mean, I loved doing it. I loved all the pieces. I loved going out in my yard and training, you know. And that was, I mean, I got her in 1983. So that was a long time ago. And methods were very different back then.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

I was gonna mention that because what struck me about when I was looking up schools, because uh I did go to a different school in my location um for one class because it was closer. Because you are about 45 miles from me, because I've been low nowhere. Um, I went to the one school, one class, and the person seemed nice enough, and everybody seemed nice enough, but I was just starting to get this wave of feeling like, you know, that her own dog isn't that happy, you know, like I could feel it. Like, yeah, not that she was, I mean, she certainly wasn't awful, nothing like that, but it was a different, they wanted different results. And it was it was gonna be much more about what the person wanted and very little about what the dog wanted. Oh, yeah, that and then it was such a relief to come across your information, your site. I looked at your website, read the stuff, and I'm like, oh my, you know, that that that aligns, that feels right. And then I go to first day of class, and nobody's like running around jerking dogs on in, you know, like they used to do back in the day. It was all about here's how here's how they think, here's how we learn to help them be good citizens and be, you know, um uh so that you're happy, they're happy, everybody's happy because they want to be with you. Um, our our instructor Pat, I'm a big shout out to Pat, uh, is fantastic and uh truly loves dogs. You can see it and the dogs feel it when she's around them, you know, so that's important. So I was so glad. So glad it's worth the it's worth the drive.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Oh, thank you. We do have people come from quite a ways, which is really awesome to see them from a radius.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

When did you switch over from like because I grew up with those methods of uh you know choke chains and stuff, you know, because I'm I'm older than you, but you know, um, and it was just oh not that long ago that positive you know, positive training using what motivates a dog, which is treats and praise and fun stuff, and you know, um what when did you make that switch? When did you see that happening? Not that you were bad, it's just that we used to follow the old methods in almost respect.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

And and I think it's a matter of we just learned from the people who taught us, and that's what we knew, right? Like we were kids. We saw people, this is the way it's done. And and back then there wasn't kind of a like a divide, I guess I would say, like there is now of like, are you using more ethical methods versus not? Or, you know, there wasn't kind of that delineation of methods, but awareness. I don't feel like there was awareness. Awareness, yeah. Yeah, I mean, my goodness, if you think back to even not that long ago, like we didn't think animals had emotions. I mean, that's they would say that, yeah, yeah. I mean, in a lot of literature, like in like 1994, you know, like we don't think dogs have emotions and or animals, I guess, in general. You know, I guess I just it's kind of goes back to that curiosity. I had my springer and I just kind of, you know, I had mentors and I just followed what my mentors did. Um, I went to college at UW Madison to go to vet school. I didn't get into vet school. Um, I went into clinical nutrition. Um, and after I graduated, I had I f I found a little dog in the ditch. Um and she I ILP'd her as a flat coat retriever and I started training her. And she was really like the first dog that I questioned what I was doing. Um, and you know, there were a lot of things that I read that really changed my mind. Um, I mean, some of the really classic books out there that that I recommend to people read, The Culture Clash by Gene Donaldson, which it like the second edition I think came out in like 2002, but originally I think it was like 1992, is that right? Um I mean, that book I went, wow. Uh like you don't need force to change behavior, like they're living, breathing creatures. That's right. Wow. Like they don't have to always do what I want them to do, right? So I think that was really pretty profound to read that book. And and then of course you have, you know, Karen Fryer's Don't Shoot the Dog, Suzanne Clodier's book, I love um If Bones Are Rain From the Sky, um all Patricia McConnell's work. I mean, my goodness, like we have a gem in our state with her. Um, and I had attended some of her lectures at UW Madison when she was still there, like some of her ethology lectures. Um and I think those things are really profound. And then I remember coming across Dr. Susan Friedman, and she has an article called um When Efficiency is not enough. Um, when efficiency is not enough, no, I'm not quoting it wrong. Um, but holy cow, I read that and I went, effectiveness is not enough. That was kind of mind-blowing to me. And it and it talked a lot about exactly like you said, Barbara, like are we, are we so your dog can do all the skills, but like how do they feel about it? What's the relationship like? And exactly. And Sue, Dr. Friedman's work, I mean, her work just blows my mind. I girl fan over her all the time. Anytime she puts out new things, but um, she really comes from a place of so you are effective in your training. Your dog can do X, Y, and Z, but is that enough? Like as their caretaker, as their advocate, is the fact they can do the skills, is that enough to build a relationship? Is that enough to do do for them? And I think it goes back to your point of, you know, we can look at choosing a dog trainer, right? And and we can look at what the dog can do. But I think like you, what is so beautiful to me is watching people work their dog and just that joy and engagement on their face, and not because they have to do it, but it's that discretionary effort, which is what I want in training. Like, can you do more than I've even asked because you are so excited to do it versus can you do less because you're worried about getting punished for it? Um, and so I love seeing those. And in my past, I look at dog trainers that I have admired and I have watched like at seminars, and I mean I've done a million seminars and things like that. And I was really competitive in agility and obedience and confirmation for a long time. And I think the the thing that always struck me was watching that dog like come out of their crate or like the them going to get them, and watching the dog be like, oh my gosh, it's my time. And like, I'm so excited. And I was always like, I want that. Like, whatever that is, like that's amazing. Like you can feel it, right? Like you can feel that energy of like, oh, I get to be with my human. Right. So I love that.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

I hear you. On set, we call that happy them up. Oh, happy them up, yes. Yeah, that's kind of the that's the catchphrase for um the seminars I give, because um, we want the dog to have the best day ever. Yeah, the best day ever. Yeah. And so like we happy them up, which you know, throwing treats on the ground and we're not asking anything, and it's like just play, play, play, play, play. And um, so when Kip comes to class over at your school, Pat, it's like he's going like this isn't because you know he's gonna he's gonna have he's gonna have so much fun. And um, that's how I want it to be. So what people get wrong when they're working with their dogs, what do people misunderstand about their dogs, you think?

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Oh gosh. I think you know, it's hard because we don't really learn. Like no one gives us a manual on you're gonna get a dog. This is what you need to look for. How do you know they're happy? Um, and I think it's that whole, and I I love where dog training is going right now because you know, we have we have really fantastic research being done. I mean, there's a lot of like canine cognition labs and things like that. And I love following the research and the science. I just think that's really important, just from my work as a behavior consultant, because I need to know the why and what like the gold standards are and what what we're learning about a dog's brain. And I think that's lovely because we do understand they have emotion. We do understand that they have like attachments, we do understand, you know, they do have negative and positive and valence around things. And I think that that we when we work with our dogs, we sometimes we put, I think the big piece is we put expectations on them without actually doing the work. You know, we want them to have this fantastic recall, but it it's a lot of work to get that relationship to a point where they can just be off-leash on 100 acres or whatever it might be. Um, and I think we have to put the work in to see things, but then I think the other half of that equation is it's a compromise. Like we have a relationship with this animal and that we brought into our home and they didn't ask for it, right? And I think that's a that's kind of a pain, a pain point for some people of going, you know, my dog didn't ask to come and live with me. They weren't like, oh, wait, I want that person. She looks fun. You know, we were like, I want that one. And so I think when we're training, we're living with them, like we're teaching them, it's such a relationship because we, it's not fair, I think, ethically to a creature to say, this is how you have to do all the things. They have to have, I mean, they're their own little creature. They have feelings and they have, you know, ways that that they things they enjoy. And I think oftentimes we in our heads were like, this is the way you have to do it. And yes, there are things that they need to learn to navigate this world safely, as we talked about, and amiably, but I think we sometimes forget, like, they are their own creature, they do species appropriate things, and we don't have to put the smack down on that because they have things they like to do. So I think it's that whole like compromise in a relationship. And I think it goes back to your point where you talk about like watching people with their dogs, and their dogs are very robotic, and they do everything precisely and perfectly with no affect, and that makes me so sad that that that animal can't even make a mistake, like it can't even make a mistake because it's always that um when sometimes we'll audition well, we audition dogs, and um the best you know can be super trained and highly accomplished dog and trainered pair, but the anxiety that is hiding behind that dog's kind of smile in a sense, but I can see it in their eyes.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

Oh he's so worried, he's so worried that he's gonna make a mistake. And they're not horrible, harsh people, they're not. It's just their expectations are so high that the dog can't sometimes doesn't it doesn't feel like he's allowed to be a dog. And so what'll happen is I'll very as nicely as I can say, could you please just kind of go over there to the owner? Maybe if I could just work with him a little bit, you know, and then um, you know, you try to get him like out of sight for the dog, and then you can see the dog go like, huh, and then like we happy them up, and he goes, like, wait, I I get to, I can just like play, and they're like, Yeah, you can play, you can play on set. It's fun, and uh it's it's kind of I mean, but then some owners are like I can work them, but you know, they yeah, so and I find that in the super super competitive people that want the perfection, and it's in the horse world too, you know, or even kids. So, you know. So exactly. Uh another question then is uh what are dogs telling us that we miss?

SPEAKER_00 21:09

You think, oh boy, they're telling us a lot. I mean, you know, my my biggest role, so I teach every night and I teach all of our puppy classes, I teach cooperative care, I teach some of the more advanced skill classes, um, the reactive rover class, um, and we have an adolescent class for just for teenage dogs. And but my biggest role here is really behavior consulting. So most of the dogs I see fear, phobia, aggression, resource guarding, like all of those things. And I they there's so much that we miss in body language. And and one of the pieces that everyone gets in their behavior modification plan is body language, like learning your dog, starting to keep data on what do you see, when do you see it. Because they're just so subtle and they're just not human pieces. You know, dogs do so many. Any cues to deflect a conflict. And it doesn't look like anything. And I'm sure horses do the same. I mean, I think animals do the same thing, but dogs will, you know, look away and scratch their neck. Well, most of us wouldn't say that dog's trying to deflect something over there. You know, we would just miss that. That's just a normal.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

Yeah, no, I call it on KIP. It's a reset. He takes his paw and scratches his eye. Like he'll just kind of swipe his eye with his paw. And I saw, and I know my border colleagues don't do that. So I thought, wow, because it comes with like when I'm going like here, quit or you know, leave it. You know, some some kind of little thing. And he does a reset, and I and I caught it, like, oh, I see. You're this caused you a little bit of some thinking, and you're gonna reset. Yep, you know. And um, so it was just it's a small stress single that I watch for. Um but of course I've been around, you know, this is what I I'm yep, I'm looking for it, you know. But but do I see when he's gonna pedal on the floor? No, I don't see that. I always miss that.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Never touched it in the act, you know. So I think, yeah, it's those little pieces. I mean, they're so honest. They're so honest. We just don't, and again, no one gives you the manual of this is what you're gonna look for, you know, when your dog does these things. And and so often you see those little tiny pieces of body language that we might miss, and then we see the big reaction, and we think, well, the dog, it came out of nowhere, like it never comes out of the way.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Oh yeah, well, he bit someone out on it. He bit them out of nowhere. You know, that dog has been telling you for a long time. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

You know, and those little stress signals are so once you learn them, you can't unsee them. Like it's almost I would suspect, Barbara, you also would agree. It's almost like a curse because you see dogs out in public and you're like, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

Oh horse world, I see it in the horse.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Oh, the horse world. And social media, oh my gosh, like I can't, I can't, I can't watch it. Yeah, I think I mean they just tell you so much. And that's I think a huge part of my responsibility, like with behavior clients, is teaching them to really read their dogs. And then it's kind of amazing because it's like one of my clients said, Heather, it's like a superpower now that I see it, because I don't put them in situations they can't handle. And I'm like, Yeah, right. You're you're being fair, yeah, and you're just advocating for them. So I think there's just so much of that.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

Yeah, no, that's that's really good. Um, so I you talked a little bit about how dogs living in a human world, which we taught we did touch on that a little bit, but um, where does the conflict mostly show up?

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Oh gosh. I mean, you look at naturally what dogs do, um, and it's often in social settings. I mean, I would say the biggest part, of course, is in interactions with other humans, interactions with other dogs. And we we often will get an animal, so we we find a dog, adopt a dog, whatever, and we have, I think sometimes there is an expectation that that dog is going to be like the golden retriever of the world. They're going to love all the people, they're going to love all the things. And then when they don't, it's almost upsetting to people. But I mean, this goes back to like all the work that's been done in applied ethology. We know that, you know, a herding breed, like what they're they have been bred to do is very different than a golden retriever, you know, and and golden have a subset on their like their genotype for friendliness anyway. So they they we know that they are often more friendly. Um but I think sometimes the the expectation of what we would like them to be doesn't always match up with who they are, and I think that's really distressing for people. Um and you know, doing behavior work, and this is interesting ethically because I think uh changing behavior in any creature is kind of inherently aversive. I mean, if you really think of it, I mean, because we're saying we don't want you to do that, we want you to do this, is and and I kind of do it every day, but I think we have to make the dog feel safe, we have to have the owners have some skills, but then some behaviors I look at and I think, but this is what they're bred to do. I mean, if Kip was out in the yard like taking squirrels out every day, well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

No, he's a terrier. He's a terrier, and um we um we have cats, and so he had to learn very early that you know, furry things that run, you don't get to chase them. Um, and luckily my cats are kind of badass and they they bat at them too, and they have cows. But the the no, the herding breed went, oh my gosh, he batted me in the nose. I will never bother running him. And the terrier goes, Come on, come on, you know, and I won't let them play like that. I had you know, he doesn't get to play bitey face, like the the border collie can play bitey face with cats and it's fun and they're safe, whatever. Kip could be safe. I mean, they want to play this this one big cat wants to play with him so bad. I just don't because I know his instinct would be if it went too far, yeah, you know, he could shake him. He could. So I don't allow it, it's just not allowed. And then he learned that uh he can he can smell for rats in the in the because we had a problem with rats in our chicken coop, which everyone did when we have mild winters. And uh he he learned that, oh my gosh, there's something wonderful, smelly here, I you know, whatever, dah dah, dah. But I don't let him hunt them because I don't want him to, even though that's his instinct, you know. Yeah, I don't want him to grab furry things because a cat might be close enough. You know, I just don't want to so he gets to play with other things and release that energy, and he gets uh the and of course the minute he showed up, the rats have left because his scent glands say I'm an underground predator, I'm gonna get you compared to the border colours useless. Yeah. Um so they're gone anyway, they're gone. But you've we were out in our fields because we have a farm and we saw a real gopher, and he's just like, Oh my gosh, I could get this gopher. Oh yeah, I had to go. I wish I could let you have this gopher, but hey, I feel for the gopher because you see and and I um didn't want him to learn that. So I have to adapt to let him play other ways to release all that energy instead of saying, Don't be who you are, we're just gonna redirect this energy into something else, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

And I do think dog training is is it has become very uh more accepting of that, of what are some kind of breed-specific behaviors or genetically kind of instilled behaviors that we can we can find outlets for. You know, can they rip and shred a box? Can they rip and shred like a whole head of cabbage outside if they love doing that? Can they chase a flirt pole instead of hurting the kids? I mean, there's so many fun stuff.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

So I understand the flirt bowl is like a fishing hole sort of thing where you've attached a uh a sturdy string and you attach something on the end of it a toy or a bit of fur or something that, and then if like a fishing bowl has some swing to it, so the dog can chase it like a predator would chase something that was moving fast, but no harm to any real creatures.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Yeah, like a big cat toy for a dog, like but hardier. So it's a little hardier, especially if the staff like rules.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

Jack Russell's go absolutely crazy for that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

And I love that we've come to the point where we can consider oh, you know, my cattle dog likes to do this, my Pyrenees likes to do this, my, you know, sighthound likes to do this, my scent hound does this, and we're we're looking at what are their needs. Um, because that was, I feel like that was never talked about. I mean, when I had my springer, I, you know, you don't just chase things, you you know, I look back at those early dogs. Don't you look back at those early dogs and you're like, oh man, like uh if I could give you a few. But we got better, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:35

And not that we were horrible. Yeah, horrible. Yeah, no. Our understanding grows. Yeah. You know, it's sort of like when you have if you have kids and you get to that last child, you know, you're a lot easier on that last one. Yeah. Because you've learned not that you're bad to the first one, but also by the time you have four or five year exhaust, you don't care what they do.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

But go play wherever, you're fine.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Yeah, you know, I we used to say to our older sons, parent for me, handle it, parent for me, you know. These little these little ones are hard. But anyway, they um you learn more, you know. And by the time your grandparent, I'm a grandparent, it's like, you know, oh, I got this parenting thing down, and I don't even have to do it now. Ha ha.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

You're like, now I'm really good.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

I can just spoil them and it's really fun. Uh, but we we learn and uh you're helping so many people learn a better path. And I'm so so glad for that. So, what changes for the dog when we meet them where they are? You know, when we when we do understand better. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

I mean, I think it's just a matter of welfare, you know. Like, are we are we being better advocates for them? Are we creating better welfare for them? I mean, I can I mean, I can only imagine as an animal, you know, imagine, you know, one thing you love to do that you just like love to do, and you're not allowed to do that for I mean 12 years, like however long our dogs live. I think gosh, that's kind of alarming that that we don't do that. And and think about your stress level when you can't like when I can't go out like hiking with my dogs on our own property, like I I get really stir crazy, I probably am not my best self. And and what we see in those, what I see in those dogs are just behavior problems starting to get bigger and bolder. And you know, G.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Oh, go ahead. Sorry, it's really good you talking about this because you have at your own farm a sniff spot where a dog's allowed to be a dog. And I think that um, especially people who live in urban environments and they don't have a place to let their dog be a dog. But um, what Pat, our instructor, said is have this when you go take your dog for a walk, have some time where they're allowed to be a little loose and walk around, smell and feel the world. And um, I'm spoiled here because we my dog can run in a pack. There's the three of them, and we have this acreage, and they could run actually off leash. And Kip has learned to stay with the pack. Fingers crossed, he stays with the pack very good.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

The water collies will keep him in toll. They'll be like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Well, all I have to do because Pat, because Pat in class, what you guys teach, is the game three one. Oh, he just put his head up because he's like, yeah. Um, because he would not come to his name. He's a terrier and is like, Kip, come, Kip, you know, Kip, whatever, forget it. He's like focused on something else. But the three, two, one game is where you use enthusiasm on set. I go, ready, ready. But three, two, one means you're gonna get a treat no matter what, at the end of it. And I didn't ask you to do anything except to notice that I said three, two, one, right? So I can call now and he can be, you know, way far away, and I can go three, and like a bullet, he comes right. And it's like the he's learning to come based on the fact that that gets his attention at first, you know. So if anything I learned in that class, that's the most valuable for me at this moment, because at least my dog will come to me most of the time. So he does have a lot more he has a lot more loose leash freedom um than a typical dog. So we're grateful for that. So tell us about what a sniff spot is and how animal how the dogs benefit from if the cat be off leash, but I didn't have a longer lead in a safe environment. Please explain how that works for a dog.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Yeah, you know, you mentioned, you know, what what if their needs aren't met. And I I I do see behavior problems are bigger and bolder. We were just talking about this in my research group yesterday. We were talking about exercise, and like we don't really have a definitive, like in the research, there's not a this is what exercise consists of. Like, there's not a definition of it. And we were kind of all talking about exercise and just like case studies that we had had. And I think, you know, the the biggest thing we know is that when dogs' needs aren't met, you see those behavior problems get bigger and bolder. And I often will tell people, like, hey, we aren't gonna solve this until we fix this. Like, we need the dog's needs to be met before we can even look at putting in a plan. And so one great space to do that is Sniff Spot. And so Sniffspot are this it's like Airbnb for dogs, is how I explain it. So there's an app on your phone, and there's another one called Rome. So there's SniffSpot and then Rome. Um, and Rome isn't really in the Midwest. We don't have a lot of spaces that are in that uh under that uh name. So Sniff Spot are private landowners that will rent you their land to walk your dog on. And the beauty of it is so many things. I mean, I work with a lot of dogs that really struggle in urban settings. And I think in the beginning, Barbara, you had asked, like, like, where do we see dogs struggle in this human world? And we walk them on sidewalks and we walk them right up to one another face to face.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

And you know as well as I do, because I have I'm allowed to have my dogs off-leash on my property everywhere, that they don't walk in a straight line. Like normal dog behavior when they're moving their bodies or space is not straight for a mile in a straight line. Like that does not happen. And so allowing them opportunities to move their body, to smell, to dig, to like, you know, find out where there was a bunny last night and a coyote and where the snake went and where the bunnies live, and um, exploring new spaces is just so important to them. And, you know, their their brain, I mean, that olfactory bulb is tied to their thinking brain. And so we we tend to see dogs that become Dr. Horwitz says more optimistic the more we kind of allow them to do those kind of behaviors. And so Sniff Spot is just a place that is safe because when you book a Sniff Spot, there is no other dog there. So, like, let's say, you know, Barbara and Kip are there for an hour. Well, during that hour, you're the only one there. There's a 15-minute block on either side, so you don't run into anyone. And so it's lovely for that reason because it's allowing dogs that might live in an urban setting, which lots of dogs struggle with that. Just the the way we've almost set them up to fail by walking them on a sidewalk, but you can't like go into this person's yard and then this person's yard. I mean, that would not be legal ever either. But we can take them into these spaces that are new, they're novel, there's a lot of smells. It's very interesting. It's like a dog museum that they can just smell and be dogs. And if they can be off-leash, a lot of them are fenced, a lot of them are not. Um, on a long line, they can be on a 25-foot long line and just kind of move their body in a way that would be natural for them. And just doing that a couple times a week is it's amazing to see dogs' needs be met. And then other things kind of fall into place, you know. They're they're and it's not even it's that it's exercise, you know, because you know, when dogs are sniffing and smelling, they're not moving fast, they're not running. I mean, maybe they would be if they had friends with them, but they're they're just gathering information, gathering information. And I think that that is such a huge role on just meeting their needs so that you see them be kind of more like behaviorally healthy, really, is what I would say when they're allowed to do that. Um fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

Yeah. In the horse world, they have the expression freedom, forage, and friends. And so when a horse it's the same principle, when a horse has freedom to move, not kept in a box stall or a very tiny enclosure, so they have freedom to move, and then forage, like having um some form of grass or hay in front of them 24-7 because they're for their guts, they need to eat continuously so they don't build up um acid in their stomach that causes ulcers. Okay, so and then friends because the isolation to a herd animal is the most, you know, upsetting thing to them is to be alone. So freedom forage and friends, and and with your sniff spots, you could do a similar concept with dogs. I mean, they don't eat out there like grass, but the you know, uh the space, you know, space and sniffing. We'll come up with another S for the thing.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Oh, yeah, let's alliterate that. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

Yeah, but anyway, they he, you know, they I can see that um, because my friend who has city dogs and she's very good at them and they're little dogs, she has a stroller even for them. So um I tease her about that. She teases me that I have a little dog now. But I say, hey, he's 16 pounds, he's not that little. Someone said to me, is that a is that a Yorkie? And I went, Do I look like I'd have a Yorkie? You know, and I love Yorkies. I don't, I'm not a Yorkie. Anyway, they um they she said you have dog heaven. She said you have dog heaven out there because they get to exercise and play, and you know, and they're they're house dogs. I mean, they're not outside, they live in the house, but we go out and we do chores and we you know, we do everything several times a day, and of course they're all frisbee crazy, which is great. Even Kip, I mean, um, so they exercise themselves, and you know, our old border call they lived to be 16, and she said that's because he's had that muscle tone and activity and brain his whole life, you know. So I was grateful for that.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

I mean, Dr. Patricia McConnell in one of her uh podcasts, maybe I don't know, I've read and listened to everything she has, but she she has a statement somewhere where it's so important for predators like our dogs. I mean, I know we don't want to think of them as predators, but yeah, um, to have novelty and novelty and spaces and smells. And yeah, every time your dogs go out into your fields, like something has been there, there's new things to smell. And gosh, that's just so important for their brains, just to and their bodies. I mean, it's just such a cumulative.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

So much like humans. I mean, because we're mammals, right? So we're animals too. And if we don't have novelty, if we don't have, you know, I mean, we can suffer depression. I mean, you know, it's so related when we start thinking about how animals and humans, you know, especially mammals, because we have the similar nervous systems. So yeah. This is fascinating. Okay, so I better get back to questions a little bit because you and I we could talk all day. Um, as far as embark was started out, uh, what did you want embark to be? Like when you were vision, you know, and how long have you had it?

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Gosh, so I left Mayo Clinic in 05, um, December of 05. And then I went into dogs full-time. So, and I taught at another dog training school from like '96 when I was out of college to about 2005. So I so I so I left Mayo Clinic in 05, and then I opened in Banbury Place for in January 2006. Um, and I bought this building in 09. So I've been here since 09. And you know, that's interesting because we were talking I was talking about this with one of the staff the other day. And I said to them, I said, I want people when they walk in here to have like a feeling. Like I want them to have a feeling. You know how you go into like your favorite coffee shop, or you walk into like your favorite store, or you go to like even like you walk into Target, like you have a feel that you're that's like equated. And I said, I want people to like have a feeling when they walk in here of like they're welcome and it's happy and like all of the things. And like, I mean, it's not always happy, like some of my behavior cases are really hard and very emotional and all those things, but but um I kind of wanted a feel, and and my and so I wanted people to kind of feel a certain way, and and I also, you know, I I always thought that people do so much training with their dogs and they teach them cool things and they do things with them, but there's nothing to do with them sometimes, you know. I mean, you've trained them, well then what? Like and so so providing opportunities of things that they can just come and do, um, kind of in the community was kind of a big goal of mine. And obviously, like ethical training methods and things like that. I mean, of course, that was like a big goal, but um, I think just to to really kind of celebrate the relationship that you have that you can like do things. I mean, we have a whole I mean we have our core curriculum of Puppy Einstein, real life rover, extreme real life rover. But you have a lot of activities, a lot of people, yeah. And then we have like a la carte classes, which are like four weeks long. Come one called, stay with me, Lucy Schwaking, um therapeutic.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Come on called. I better sign up for that one.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Yeah, that's especially as an adolescent dog. That's uh, you know, the owner gravity fades at six months old, and they're like, Oh, look what's over here. That's such an adolescent dog. Um, and so, and then we have all these fun classes. So I started doing these classes, I call them one-hit wonders, and they're just like one night out with one thing, they're not a big commitment. People's lives are busy, sometimes they can't class. And I think if we have like 15 of them, and they're anything from I have a class called Space Invaders, that is how do you navigate an ambush by an off-leash dog when you're out walking in public? Because that happens all the time. Um, but we don't practice it. So if we don't practice it in the moment, we freeze. And so that's a one-hit one. I have happy our hounds that's coming up, I don't know, in the next couple weeks, which is like patio manners. We have a muzzle training class, we have a goggles class, I have a booty building class for dogs. Um we have a leave it class, we have a door dashing class for dogs that run outdoors, like dash outdoors. Um, I have a cooperative care skills for puppies. We have, oh gosh, I think we have I suppose probably like 15.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

It's very, very good. Very good. We you spoke about this a little bit before because you said you have a uh a group you talked to about research and learning things. Yeah. Um, which I think makes um is so great for for a school like yours to continually to be learning. So why does continuing education matter in this field? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Oh my gosh, I love that you asked that. Because I think I love, I think it's so important. I mean, we all could be stuck. I mean, you and I could be stuck training how we did in 1989, right? I mean, we could, but we're not. Um, and I think it's just like you always have to ask questions of like, how can I do this better? How can I do this better? How can I do this better? And the field of, you know, dog training in the research is new. Like it's pretty, I mean, we just started to accept that dogs had emotions, right? So we're not that far ahead. Um, but I think there's a lot of very sister science kind of pieces that come into play in cognition and neuroscience. I mean, what is happening with dopamine and what is happening happening in their head with serotonin? And and how does trauma, oh my gosh, my my current deep dive is the neuroscience of trauma and stress during puppyhood and how that affects an adult dog. So I love that. I don't love how it affects them, but I love the science behind brain development and how all those neurochemicals do or don't play a role in creating resilience in young dogs that have been through, you know, stressed moms and even just stress, like high alestatic loads of stress and things like that. But I think the it's so important to stay current because it it makes you think of new ways to do things. It makes you understand the dog. I mean, the more I learn about cognition and processing and especially neuroscience behind why dogs do what they do and why certain patterns in the past have elicited certain behaviors in the future, it has it makes me be so much more empathetic to the dog that I have. I mean, I think if you knew, like if there was a trainer that didn't understand brain development in a neonate and a juvenile and how that affects their behavior, I mean, if I didn't know that, I'd probably still be using punishment. But because I know that, like it gives you such a sense of knowing where they're coming from and why you would never use punishment in certain behaviors. I mean, it just makes you really understand why they're doing behaviors.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

We we have that paradigm um when we're working with um young people that um have had like adverse childhood experiences. And the the paradigm, the way to frame it is um not what's wrong with you, which is what's wrong with you, but what happened to you. Yes, yes. And um, it gives you a a start, a base of empathy to begin with, yeah, that you can work from. And if we could look at our animals that way too, um now we don't have to have them carry their trauma stories forever. Like we can't go, oh, you poor thing, and then and never help them never help them build resilience and and change brain patterns and ways of being capable of changing pathways for a dog, a horse, a child, you know. So, but but at least starting with that base of empathy instead of there's something wrong with you and you're bad, which is nonsense. An animal can't be good or bad, it's dog.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

And why are you not why can't you do this? Yeah, or why can't you why are you not doing this now or listening to me or whatever it might be? Yeah. Yeah, I I just think it's oh go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

I'm just agreeing with you.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Yeah, I think it's so important to to and that's my role. Like, I don't I mean the staff I'll have to do continuing ed to keep up their certifications, but I mean I have to keep up continuing ad to keep my certification, which is funny because this last I renewed in December and you need like 36 continuing added credits, and I had four 147. It's like oops. But I love it. I love webinars and things like that. And sometimes I'll listen to stuff I don't agree with just to be like, okay, well, this is why I don't agree with that. Um, but I think it's so important because then you again, like just like you said, you look at the you have more empathy in what is happening to them, and it allows you to like create coping skills based on their own history and yeah, exactly. And I love Dr. Christina Spaulding. I'm in her her research bites group, and I'm also in her, I did her science and action class, and um I've done a lot of work with her, and she her PhD is in behavioral neurobiology, and I just love all of her. We review um literature twice a month, sometimes three times a month. Um, and we have just a brilliant group that just really dives in and asks questions and and it's just it makes it so applicable. And some of the pieces, you know, are not they're not directly related to what we what I do on a daily basis, but everything comes together, like it all comes together. And so I think it's super important.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

Well, I want to talk a little bit about um your prairie garden or your prairie land and your nature connection. You spend a lot of time in nature, which is good. How does that shape how you see dogs?

SPEAKER_00 48:07

Oh, that's such a great gosh, no one's ever asked me that. I love that. I mean, I'm such a nerd when it comes to like being outside. I mean, you know, we talked about meeting dogs' needs. And I think, holy cow, when I cannot get outside, like, oh, like that is a need that I have, or my behavior is not great. And I think I've just always, I mean, again, coming from my parents, kind of instilling curiosity in the natural world is such a a piece. But, you know, it's it's it's interesting because we so we have uh a farm on the Buffalo River and we have restored it to native prairie with 40 acres, 23 of this native prairie. And you know, it's it's it's such an interesting parallel to to teaching raising an animal because rather than, you know, well, what did why why didn't this choreopsis grow? Like, what's wrong with it? It's like, oh my gosh, the conditions must just not have not been great for it. Like, how can we change it? And oh my gosh, that's exactly how I look at dog training. And I and I look at, you know, we've had our farm for six years now. So it was really interesting because in the first year that I was there, we it was soybean stubble, is what the farm was when we put the prairie in. And I remember the first summer I was there remodeling the house, like gutting the inside of the house, and there were no birds there. Like, how do we live on the Buffalo River and there's like no birds? You know, I put a bird feeder out and I was like, okay, what this is weird. Like, I was so excited for all these birds to come. Right. And you know, once the prairie started growing, the birds started to come. I saw more deer, I saw possums, I saw woodcock, I saw um, you know, I I hear the sand hills. I mean, it was so crazy how every year it was more and more and more. And how you just provide, you provide for their needs, right? You provide for the needs of of nature and it it pays you back.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

And so you must have the Merlin Bird app on your phone. Oh, yeah. Oh, I think every day I'm like, I'm so excited to like find the birds in my, you know, I saw 17 or heard 17 today, you know, different birds. Uh, and there's always some rattle of a dog in the background making noise when I'm out there. But but I'm so excited to like, I heard a different kind of owl today, you know. Um, yes. I get it. I totally get it.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

But yeah, day or night, I'm out there all the time. I mean, I could just wander. I I mean, I think one of my needs, if we had to like compare ourselves to our needs of dogs, is um I usually go out with binoculars. You know, I have an eagle nest too that I'm monitoring for a citizen science project. And and we have a kestrel box that we have as a in a citizen science project too. And um, so I'm always like looking to see what's out there. And my husband sometimes will be like, Do you want to walk with me? He's like, Yeah. And then he's like, Are you gonna bring your binoculars? Is this like a watching walk and a seed collecting walk or just a walk? I'm like, it's always a watching walk. Like, but I could just go wander through my prairies looking for like unusual plants. I mean, I could do that all day long, all day with the dogs with me, just meandering around.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

We're pretty lucky. We're pretty lucky to be able to be on land. Um my gosh. So much of people that you know don't even feel grass, you know. I know. And uh this is so restorative. So can you imagine how great it is for dogs and how good it is for us? And it's good on you for sharing it in the way you do. So we're glad for that.

SPEAKER_00 51:33

Yeah, and Sniff Spot, though. I have our beaches at our beach is um in the Sniff Spot app because I think too, like so many dogs want to go for a swim, but there's not safe water. I mean, in our area we have a lot of blue-green algae. Um the river, our river, it's probably like six inches to two feet. It's very sandy, it's very clear. It's a great place to introduce puppies. And so I love that too, to be able to give dogs that experience of you know, a place where they can feel safe and they can swim and they can dig. I mean, oh my gosh, dig all you want there. You know, it's sand. Right.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Yeah. No, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

And that's a need to be met.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

So people like that, you know, water course is very grounding. So it's a combination of the water and the land. That's wonderful. Okay, so we can get to a couple practical things before we wind up today. What is one thing people could do better starting today for their dogs?

SPEAKER_00 52:22

Gosh, I think listening to their needs, like what do they need? Um, and sometimes it it it might take a while to find out what that is. Um, I think the one way, because people will say, Well, I have a you know, breed that is X and X, like what do they need? But you know, the biggest thing that I think we can do for our dogs is give them opportunities in new places to smell. And I know that's hard because, you know, uh people are confined by the space they live in, by having transportation to get to some of these spaces, by you know, sniff spot you have to pay for. I mean, it's anywhere from usually uh three to five bucks an hour to like 18 for the big fenced ones. Um, but I think finding pockets to allow your dog to be a dog, and that doesn't have to be a giant sniff spot. It can be, you know, you walk to a park down the road and you just allow them to have 25 feet of leash if it's safe enough and they can smell and be a dog. Um, and I think it's fascinating to do that because you look at what your dogs will find, and it's fascinating. I mean, I think it's fascinating of like what was here. I mean, remember one of my flat coats, we were walking in Tossel was under a tree where there's an owl that lives. There's a a screech all that is often in that area. And they were like obsessed with this spot in the grass. And so I'm like, what are they so intently spelling? I found like the leg of a sparrow. It was like this big in this deep grass. And that's what they had found. I'm like, well, that's fascinating that they could find that. So giving them spaces to do that, I think is just so important and listening to their needs. If they like to shred, can we find stuff for them to shred? They like to chase, what can they chase? That's appropriate. Um and just letting go of all of that dominance crap. Like, can we just say goodbye to that? I mean, of you know, the dog can't be on the bed and they can't be the go they have to go first through the door, or you go first through the door and you eat first and all that. Like, our dogs don't live long enough. Like, can't we just let them have access to us? Like, do we have do they have to earn attention? They don't have to earn attention. That's a lovely thought.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

Such a lovely thought, you know. Well, that was one thing to start doing. What what one thing should we stop doing?

SPEAKER_00 54:30

I think we have and and I I suspect your listeners, this is not relevant to them, but I think we have this weird like control. Like we have this creature that we can control, so therefore we should. And you see this a lot on TikTok and like people that have big platforms, and I don't because I'm not good at any of that. I just train dogs all day or help people all day. You're actually working, yeah. And I'm too old for doing that. Exactly. Like, how do these people have time to make these big sexy videos? Because I'm tired at midnight when I'm at home. Uh I think, you know, can we let's just give up the 1970s, 1980s, 1960s, even into now, that you know, your dog has to earn their attention. Oh my gosh, with any of my family members that I love, I would never say, you know, to my husband, well, if you get a hug, you gotta do the dishes. I mean, that that's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 55:27

I mean, maybe the dishes because you do hug them, but I mean, yeah. Or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

Whatever it might be. I mean, when my dog needs like something, I'm like, yeah, what do you need right now? And and they often tell you, you know, they'll they'll tell you if you're if you're paying attention. Um, and then if we just get rid of the rule, like the ridiculous rules, and and granted, there are some rules we have to have because we have to have the dogs feel safe. Like, absolutely. I totally get it. Like I love having well-trained dogs. Like, I love having dogs that know a lot of things and they know how to navigate the world, but but they know that because it's predictable. Like, I'm very predictable. They have been well re reinforced for the things that I would like them to do. Um, but I think getting rid of that control of just their environment of you eat first and you go out the door first, and they can't be on the couch and they earn all their attention and like, gosh, if this is like a 50-50 relationship, like I would never do that with well, that also seems like a lot of work.

SPEAKER_02 56:24

It does seem like a lot of work to be so aware all the time.

SPEAKER_00 56:27

And I feel so bad for people that come in for behavior consults and they they will write on their form or they will say to me, I know I let my dog sleep on the bed and I know I shouldn't, but I I just do. And I was like, Yeah, you should. Like your dog isn't resource guarding the bed. Like, we live in winter and Wisconsin. Like, more is better. Like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:48

Bring them.

SPEAKER_00 56:49

That's why it's called the big thing.

SPEAKER_02 56:51

The two dogs prefer to sleep downstairs um because we have a next year's bedroom. The to the border collie and the collie mix, they like to be downstairs because she just likes to keep an eye on everything, you know. But Kip, when he I thought, okay, great. Kip will be down here with these guys, you know, he can sleep down there. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Kip is not going to be apart from us. So um, because I have so many cats on my bed, it's easier to not have a dog on the bed. It's just a crazy. So I thought, I'll just put his crate here and he can see us and he's with us because he's crate trained and he, you know, he's he can handle that. But the crate we've discovered cannot be across the room. No, no. The crate needs to be right next to my bed, right there. Because he's like, and now I can and he sleeps all night and he's lovely, right? Oh, yeah. But it's just so funny because he's like, as long as you are this this close, you know. And you know, it's funny because when I was raising my children, there was always this controversy, like, you go put them in a room and shut the door and make them cry, let them cry it out. Yeah, that you're not gonna let your baby sleep with you. And I thought, this is the dumbest thing I ever heard. This little infant wants to be with me, of course, right? So, you know, I co-slept with them. Now their cradle would have been right next to me, you know, so that I they had some safety, whatever. And then they were with me, whatever. But I never questioned it. It was like, I'm gonna do it. Feels see, yeah, I love that. He is right to take care of my child, and of course they all turned out fine, I hope, right? But the puppy, he need to be, he needs to be there. That's fine. I will adapt.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

There's no and you listen to his needs, like you listen to what he needed.

SPEAKER_02 58:14

Yeah, because he wasn't gonna sleep, he wasn't gonna be quiet. He's oblivionated. And I you can't yell at him for communicating. I love that. Beat on his crate, you know. What does he learn except to be scared of you? Yeah, to know it's like, why are you crying? You know, and uh by this negative attention is better than no attention as far as he's concerned. So why did I give him good attention to take away the need to be having these opinions? You know, uh so but it took you know, I probably wouldn't have done that a long, long time ago. I wouldn't have known. Yeah, we got better, right? We got better.

SPEAKER_00 58:47

I call those dogs. I always say scout was my the dog I I found after college and and had her, gosh, she lived to be 16. Um, I was I I my word for her is chalkboard dog because I feel like I made so many mistakes that I redid and I undid and I redid, and I thought I'm not gonna do that again, and I'm gonna do it different this way. And yeah, I mean, look at all you learn from those earlier animals how they teach you.

SPEAKER_02 59:16

Yeah, we are lucky that dogs are so forgiving. Oh my gosh, yes, that yes, yes, no, like it just like it's a cat, cat goes, nah, done. Yeah, you know, like a cat's smart enough to go, this isn't working for me. Well, the dog is just like, you know, okay, I guess that's what we're gonna do. That's what you are doing, but I'll do it, you know. So okay, so in in closing, before we um talk about uh how people can reach you, but in closing, what do dogs understand about us that we mess?

SPEAKER_00 59:47

I mean, they are very good at reading our body language. I think they are better reading our body language than we are reading their body language. So I think they and they know our patterns. Um, and sometimes we don't always give them the right information in environments that they feel unsafe with, like, you know, reactivity or whatever. Like I think sometimes we're just not predictable. Um, and they know that, and that creates fear, right? Like if there's an environment and you don't know what your partner is gonna do, like you're kind of fearful because you're not sure what they're gonna do. So, I mean, they holy cow, they're pretty they're masters at our body language. And it's interesting to hear people maybe talk about the patterns they have with their dogs because their dogs know the minute they put on like their hiking shoes versus their work shoes and how in tune they are to little bits of your behavior. But then um, we will say, well, they don't understand this when I'm teaching them that, but look at what they do understand. And dogs do what's reinforcing. I mean, they they do what, you know, you know, it's an antecedent behavior consequence chain. Like they will do things that will get them the thing. And we often are the reason to cause a lot of those bad behaviors. And and I don't mean that in a bad way because I think most people don't realize that they're even a part of that equation. But yeah, dogs are good at reading us. Holy cow. And I think it's our responsibility then in turn to be good at reading them so that we can understand what they're saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:12

Yeah. That sounds really fair. That sounds really fair to our dogs. Yeah. This has been delightful. Just delightful.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:19

So delightful.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:20

Yeah. Um we're gonna we're gonna visit each other's places because we're too far apart, so that'll be fun. And um, we'll have to do this again sometime. Uh, how can people learn more about you and uh people that are local to the area? How can they find you? And what's the best resources to connect with you?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:36

Yeah, so I'm in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. So I'm about uh hour and a half um east of Minneapolis, St. Paul. Um, my website is embarkdog.com. So embarkdog.com, you can find the behavior consulting, all the classes. Um, Dawn that works for me is a separation anxiety specialist, so she does all of those pieces, all of our classes, um, but also on Facebook. So embarkdog on Facebook, Instagram, embarkdog. Not good at TikTok because you know I'm 50. So we have a little bit of stuff up on there. I'm not great at it. Uh, but those are like the big platforms. And then I'm Heather at embarkdog.com is where you can take it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:14

We will have all of that uh on the show notes too for people, so it'll be in the notes uh on Twitter.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

If you want to follow my farm, it's Black Dog Farmstead. Um, it's beautiful in my movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:23

Heather's a good photographer, and there's some really beautiful imagery on there as well. Well, kinda kind of I mean a little with my iPhone, you know. That looks pretty darn good to me. Looks pretty darn good to me. Well, I I do want to thank you for taking the time. I know how crazy busy you are because we're both like squirrels up and down a tree. Exactly. I uh I appreciate that very much. And uh I'm so glad I get to go to your school because Kip is so at least I hope I'm being a better owner for Kip because of it. I hope because we're learning together.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:52

So well, I appreciate I'm so honored to be on here. You you are a a force in the animal world, so I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:59

Well, we'll just keep doing what we're doing, right? We'll just try to help those. Oh, yeah. I'm not funny.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:02

I'm I'm I drive everyone crazy if I ever retired. So this is gonna be we're I'm gonna be here a while.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

Yeah, me too. Me too. All right. Thank you so much, Heather.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

Thank you.