The Empathetic Trainer
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The Empathetic Trainer
Horses, Trauma & Healing — “Horses Notice What We Hide” with Toni Mattson S4 E32
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Today I’m talking with Toni Mattson of Trinity Equestrian Center in Eau Claire, Wisconsin.
Toni and her team work with horses alongside veterans, first responders, youth, and individuals facing trauma, PTSD, dementia, and other life challenges.
We talk about what horses notice about people, why they respond so honestly to emotion, and how animals can help people reconnect with hope, trust, and themselves.
We also discuss Toni’s book Unlikely Recruits, her work with veterans, and Trinity’s dementia program, “Reminiscing on the Ranch.”
A really thoughtful and meaningful conversation.
https://www.empathetic-trainer.com/
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien. I'm an animal trainer and photographer, and I'd like to welcome you to the Empathetic Trainer. Hello. Today I'm talking with Tony Matson. Tony is co-founder of Trinity Equestrian Center, where she and her team work with horses to support veterans, first responders, and individuals and families facing a wide range of challenges. She's also the author of Unlikely Recruits, a speaker, and someone who has spent many years walking alongside people navigating PTSD, trauma, and recovery. What really stood out to me about Tony's work is the way horses are part of that process, not as tools, but as partners in helping people reconnect, regulate, and in many cases, rediscover hope. Tony, I'm really glad you're here.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Barbara. I'm so glad for the invitation and I'm happy to join you.
SPEAKER_00Well, I first heard you on the radio when uh you have um little moments that come out on the radio in our area. So and then I drive past your beautiful um farm, the Trinity, um, where you do all of this work um on the way to Eau Claire, because you're in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. And uh I've heard about you for other things too, but I started digging in more and more, and I'm like, oh my goodness, this Tony is doing a lot. And the best part, you're doing a lot of your team, of course, your team. Exactly. Tony is on your TV. You you guys are doing a lot, and we are so blessed to have you like in this community. I mean, you're only you know 40 minutes from me, so we will be visiting, but wow, I'm just like, wow, this is here, and she's doing this here, and it's helping people here, so I'm very excited. Okay, so my first question How did this all begin for you?
SPEAKER_01Um, you know, it began um way, way, way, way back, really. Um, I'm a um a horse lover from you know five years, five years old. Uh, my sister and I, I'm actually the youngest of six kids, and um, and so you know, we've been in love with horses our whole life. And um at nine years old, um, my mom and dad, I got it back up here, my mom and dad are both World War II veterans. My dad was 20 years in, retired lieutenant colonel. My mom was an army nurse, and my brothers, my cousins, my uncles, um, even my husband, uh they're all veterans. And they all came back, I can say, affected by their service for sure. Um, but my dad really was affected by far the most that I noticed. And at a really young age, nine years old, um, I accidentally startled him. And what I didn't know then, of course, is that he really struggled with PTS. We didn't know as a family, and as a young kiddo, I had no concept of what that meant, didn't even know at all what it looked like or anything. However, um, I came up behind him uh one late evening just to say hi, and and I startled him, and he bolted off of his stool, and before we both knew it, I was on the kitchen floor in a chokehold. And he he just was he wasn't there. He just didn't have any concept of what was going on. He really didn't know. Once he kind of came back to the moment, um, he realized what he had done. And and of course, as a little nine-year-old, I thought he was going to pick me up and give me a big hug and and um tell me that he was sorry, and that didn't happen. He just shook me and hollered at me and said, Don't ever do that again, I could have killed you. So that moment um really stuck with me as far as the whole concept of veterans and and that, and then as as um you know, marrying, if you will, the real passion that we had for horses, and that innocent, young, kind of childlike, you know, almost fantasy of them, um, and then putting together the compassion that I quickly learned for veterans and their families and what that all meant. Um that kind of solidified something in me that I really had no idea. I was far too young to notice that, to realize it. But then many years later, um, we decided that we were going to do what we called kids' camps. We didn't have a we didn't have a farm, we didn't have a ranch, we didn't have a horse at that time in our life. Um, but we decided that we wanted to bring kids in from uh Milwaukee and real, real, you know, populated metro areas. And so we borrowed, we borrowed some friends' property and their horses, and we had weekend events, and it was marvelous. It was so amazing to see what the connection of a horse would do for kids that um never really got out of the city. They got they didn't even ever have a real experience with cats or dogs, and much less horses. They were, you know, they were really, really afraid of them, of course, because they were large animals and they, you know, they didn't realize that they could be kind and gentle and actually affectionate. And our boys at that time were real real young as well. So we did a few of those, and then we just really had a distinct feeling and kind of a nudge from God saying, you know what, this is what I want you to do. And so we started looking for property. We were looking for just a small, you know, maybe 10 to 15 acres, and maybe having a couple of horses that we could do kind of our own thing with instead of having to borrow, you know, horses and space and everything. And oddly, um, my husband was working as a construction controller in a real estate office at the time, and this the sales sheet for this big horse ranch kept coming across his desk. At that time, it was called Pinewood Stables. 67 acres, big, beautiful place, really well known in the region. And uh, it was the largest horse ranch in our in our geoarea. And he brought it home to me and showed it to me. And I'm like, nope, that's way too big. Nope, nope, that's just way out of our scope. We don't want to do that. Not only the price, but the whole, you know, the whole magnitude of the place, far beyond us. Well, it just kept coming across his desk. And we finally said, okay, well, maybe this is God's way of saying, you know, what we want is a little bitty small thing. He has envisioned this great big thing. And so I got with my sister and my mom at the time, who lived in our hometown, hour and a half away. And I said, I got just this really crazy question. What would you think if we all sold our homes and put our resources together and bought this horse ranch and we all live on the ranch? And surprisingly, yep, surprisingly enough, they both said, Yeah, let's do this. So yeah, so we did. 2002, we bought the ranch and decided that this was going to be our thing. And even though we were way over our head in every respect, um we just kind of plopped forward. And uh it's kind of funny because you know, you you have these moments in life where you think that you're tested by fire, you know, the old expression, tested by fire. Well, a little over a year of owning the ranch, we were literally tested by fire. We had a big barn fire at that time. We had 27 stalls and a 300-foot barn, and it it just was raging. I was I noticed it out the kitchen window, and I'm, you know, of course, in shock, hollering. Our boys came flying down the stairs, and and we managed to get all the horses out. Our staff was bringing in horses from the far side, we're running in the near side, trying to make sure all the horses get out, and that they hear that there's a a fire on on the near side. They didn't even realize that they were still bringing horses in. And so that was a that was really a big thing. That was huge, actually. My husband had a second heart attack that day. We uh got all of them out, they were singed, some of them were singed, but it was it was crazy. But that was the day where you stood back and said, Okay, hmm, is this really what we're supposed to be doing? Because this doesn't feel like it with this big of a you know, an event and all of the trauma that went along with that. But that was really the time, Barbara, that we decided that we were gonna change our kind of our loose idea of what we were really taking this on for, and decided, no, this is this is really gonna be our heart and soul. And we changed the whole concept of really trying to find ways of making an living at this, and then changing it into um making a difference, really making an impact on lives.
SPEAKER_00Oh, what an expression, the difference between making a living at it and making a difference and um coming from that place of trust, that place of faith. And that's a testimony all in itself, because um, as human beings, you know, we want to borrow trouble and and we you know we worry and we have anxiety. And uh I um have learned a new expression called putting it in God's inbox, and I love that because when I have a worry, I can do that. Um so what an amazing, literally a leap of faith to go from devastating fire, which normal people would be like, all right, this is enough. A heart attack, a second heart attack. I mean, that's my husband's had a heart attack and's recovered, of course, now, but frightening, okay, really frightening, like you can't die, we can't have that, not gonna have to. No, no, we just started. I can really hear that, how scary that yeah. Yeah, so you know it's what a scary thing. And we moved to our farm in 2002 as well. So wow, that's so these parallels. That's interesting. But to to just wake up the next day pretty much and go, you know what, we're still in. I mean, that is and obviously it looks like you've been doing the work ever since.
SPEAKER_01We have, we have. It's evolved as you as you can imagine. Um, starting, starting at that point of um, we really worked our first our first therapy point was um what now we call is adaptive writing, but back then it was called therapeutic writing. And um, working with kiddos and adults and families who have individuals that struggle with either they're on the spectrum or they have brain or spine injuries, or you know, many different things. And that started right from day one. Um, and then you know, you know how it is, the the um our our desire to take our passion and make it into um something that really has has that impact, um, I decided that that I needed to go get certified. I knew I knew that horses were so much more than a good ride, and just you know, hanging out. And so um I went and got certified um under a gala, equine assisted growth and learning association out in Oklahoma. And uh that started, that was in 2008 and then 2009. We gathered um uh a very small team. In fact, it was um one therapist and myself, and talk about an interesting God story. We were in need of a therapist because the team, as you know, um with we uh equine assisted psychotherapy or e-coin assisted therapy is a uh certified e-coin specialist and then a for us Wisconsin licensed therapist, and then one or more horse. So we needed a therapist on a Saturday. Sure, I'm out working in the round pen with one of our horses, and a car drives up, and this gal hops out and says, I'm looking for Tony. And I said, Wow, well, you found her. I'm Tony. And she says, I'm supposed to be here. And of course, to me, I'm thinking, did she have an appointment that I missed? And I, you know, how do you think that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, odd, right? Odd.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally. And she said, No, no, you didn't miss an appointment. She said, God told me I was supposed to come, and I am supposed to be your therapist. And I'm thinking, wow, that's that's really amazing. So we talked, and and as God would have it, um, it was a match made literally in heaven. She and I worked our program, built our veteran program for 11 years. And she finally retired. She was about, I think she's 11 years older than I am, and it was remarkable, remarkable. Um, yeah. So that's, I mean, when you it's it's just so cool because when you know that that it is a divine appointment, not only because we stayed and we just decided that we've got more grit than fear, and we're gonna just keep doing it. And then God brings out again.
SPEAKER_00Let's say that again. More, more I have more, we have more grit than fear. More grit, more grit than fear. The grit than fear. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and um, and then when you know that no, when you know that he brings his choice of people to team with you and to see the you know, the lives that we touched and and the work that we did was amazing. And and uh, and that I don't say that in a braggadocious way at all, because as you know, anybody who works with horses or animals in general, but certainly um my experience with horses is that you can lay out the best of plans, and and much of what we do is based on metaphors and based on activities that you map out because you're you know the goals that you're seeking, and so you also know what outcomes you're really trying to affect. So you may you may map out this fabulous um activity and bring in the exact horses that you think are going to do the exactly what you want to do, and then nothing goes the way that you planned that they're going to go. But if you leave your head and heart open, you know that they've just happened exactly how they're supposed to happen. And that's where you stand back and just say, that's the best. I mean, we're conduits, we aren't the leaders, yeah. We're the stewards, we're the shepherds, and uh and from there, however that however that unfolds is is beautiful and it's how it's supposed to happen.
SPEAKER_00Oh yes. Let's talk about the horses. What do you think horses notice about people that that we don't?
SPEAKER_01I think they notice first, probably their energy. We're not some of us, I think, are better at picking up on energy than others. I think that's a skill that you know we can certainly learn if we devote ourselves to it. Um but I think instantly, by nature, by instinct, and for them by survival, they pick up our energy. And I've always been a believer that um they read us, you know, they read us like a book and our intentions, and they will they will notice, I think, they notice our our real motives, I guess I would say. And and really working a lot with with veterans who um when they first come to us, they have you know such little trust, if any, really. Um but our horses tap into that and they will tell us, me as one of our equine specialists, they'll tell us whether they're being truthful or whether they're being manipulative. And I say that out of deep, deep respect for our veterans because that is their survival mechanism. You know, it's not that they're trying to be, you know, coy and all that. It's just that's what they've learned, that's how they've survived. But our horses, oh yeah, oh man, they just tap into that and you know they'll they'll do just wild things where we had we had one of our veterans who who wasn't being truthful. No big surprise because that's just how they come to us real early in our relationship with them. And um, we had one of our horses that we used to nickname our uh lie detector, because anytime anyone would try to kind of pull the wool, he would just walk up to them and he would kind of butt them in the shoulder, not you know, not aggressively, but enough for us to say, okay, that's not true. Okay, we're getting it. And so they tap into that, they just tap into that, I think, that motive and that intention, and and they are they are so truthful and so I guess you know the old expression, horses don't lie. And we rely so much on that because when you are able to tap into that and watch them and know what the flick of that ear is and know what the the lifting of that back leg is all about, you know, they they inform us so beautifully and so honestly, and then we become far better at our work. Um, and quite honestly, without that, we go in so blind, you know, we just do. We just don't.
SPEAKER_00We don't know what we don't know, and they're great, they're great advocates for yeah, and when somebody we've we've had um some young women that we've taken in, um like in informal foster care, I guess, that have lived with us, and the first thing we did was connect them up with a horse to take care of because then you have to get up in the morning and you have responsibility, and you you know, so they got a puppy or a kitten or and a horse. So to work. And uh the horses, it's exactly what you're talking about, but the horses could tell, you know, there's something different. They could recognize this person I need to do something different with. Um, they're you know, they're hiding, like you can't like like you just said, it's their nature, the person who's suffered trauma, their protectiveness is to um, you know, hide or withhold or protect themselves naturally, you know. So I don't blame anyone there, but the horses peel that back. And it's it's pretty cool to watch that process. And we're not trained, but you can, you know, being around animals enough, I can see it. Uh so what you kind of answered this, but you feel that horses do respond differently to someone who's carrying trauma or stress.
SPEAKER_01Very much so, very much so. I think that because they are so tapped in, um, they have that desire. I mean, honestly, you know, we we work with, I nicknamed it the trifecta, where the first step is very much what you're talking about, Barbara, is making that connection that then grows to a relationship and that matures into trust. And we know that once that they're on the road to that, um, and if they or not if, but when they really achieve that, there's some level of trust there, that's when the barriers come down, and then that's when progress and change start. It won't happen before that. It absolutely, in our experience, that I mean you can you can do and say and tap dance all you want, but it is not going to happen until that individual feels safe and uh connected and then has some trust. But that's where I think is absolutely um the key. That's why we choose them as our partners because they're so good at that. Because if they don't feel that from an individual, and most often because of trauma, one of the biggest things gets blown up is trust, and that's in almost any experience. So the horses already know there's no trust, and they are so finely tuned to that that character, that commodity of trust, that their desire is to have that relationship, but they also know that they can't just blow into that, that they have to take it nice and slow. And so they do, I mean, they do 90% of our work because you can't talk your way into that. You have to, you have to live it. You have to just ease your way in. And when a horse, one of my best examples is that, you know, when you want to, when you want to gain that. That connection with them. We often have them, you know, most of the time they're at liberty in our arena or in uh in the pasture, but sometimes we have halter on, lead rope on, and we just ask them to, you know, take them for a walk, just walk in the arena. And our goal, of course, is to is to have them create that connection so that the horse is used to them, that the person is not uncomfortable being next to them. Um, and then we have them take the lead rope off eventually and see if the horse will still follow them. And what happens to that individual, particularly if they have struggled and suffered from some uh trauma, is that when the horse follows them, they're in awe. When the horse, when they stop and the horse stops, when they take a left and the horse follows them, when they even trot and the horse follows with their trot, they're absolutely amazed. They want to know how how we trained them to do that. Much of what you do in your world is training them. And it's kind of funny because I often say, boy, if we could train them to do that, you know, we'd be in Hollywood on some movie set somewhere.
SPEAKER_00But that's yeah, but that's different. That's completely different. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It is so it's so organic and it is just so spontaneous, but it is so meaningful because it just it doesn't have it.
SPEAKER_00I I think you're showing them. Yeah. Yeah. I I think you're showing them, the person, that they matter. You know, that they matter to this person, this this creature that doesn't want anything from them, like doesn't take anything from them, isn't going to hurt them in that sense. And so to have this animal go, like, I can hang with you, you matter, you're good. I mean, that's got to be a huge that's what we found with our girls. It's got to be a huge feeling of like, wow, I I matter to something. I I have some value, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and you know, depending on their history, that may be that may be their first time that they've ever felt that, depending on what their track record is, what their history is, you know, and that is that is so it's so amazing. And the cool thing I always think is that we can't, we as humans can't make them feel that way. I mean, we can try and we can compliment and we can come around them and we can do our best, and it does make some difference. But when when a creature, when a horse that is so much bigger than them decides, chooses to be close to them, to follow them, to be in their world, um, and that they didn't have to choose that, it's entirely voluntary. That changes everything. Yeah, it's it's amazing.
SPEAKER_00I agree. That's wonderful. Oh, just I can't wait to visit. This is gonna be so cool. All right, so let's talk about the work that you do there. You don't, I know you have a lot of programs, um, but like the ones that um you want to talk about the most. Um, you know, if you go on the website, which will have all the um, we'll talk about that before we finish. But um, what what what programs are you running now?
SPEAKER_01The the programs that we run um are a lot based on the equine assisted therapy, which that includes families and individuals, um, our veterans, of course, and their families. And then just in 25, beginning of 25, we began to expand our program into first responders. And uh, and that is fire, log, EMS, and dispatchers, you name it. And um, and I like to say that everything that we do at Trinity is personal. We have we are invited, if you will, to expand our programs in all sorts of different ways. And while they're always good, they're really, you know, very high impact and and really good uh options and opportunities that we have. What we oftentimes have to just say no to the good so that we can say yes to the really, really good, the really great things that we could be doing, knowing that we and our horses have so many life hours, you know, that we we have gotten you know a little bit more particular about it. But we do our veteran program because we have so many veterans in our family. We expanded into our first responders with with our program because our oldest son, who is now our CEO, was a in law enforcement and saw and experienced a lot of things that is very common in that field, and we decided that we can definitely we have the whereabouts, we have the team, the horses, the facility to help them as well, so we expanded into that. And um, we also work a lot with youth. We have a huge youth program. Um, we have about 150 kiddos that we work with every week and employ about 80 youth counselors, and um, it's it's just marvelous. And that and one of the reasons why we do our youth is because when Ian was in law enforcement, he saw how the youth really came from some really not healthy environments and what that caused, the decisions they made, how they ended up in Juvie, and if we could kind of intercept them before that happened by youth mentoring and a youth development program, we could do a world of good. So we started that in 2009.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So we've got we have a lot of programs, and those are really our core programs.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Well, something I noticed when I was going through um is your dementia program. And I had never heard of anything like that in the past. I would love to hear about um how that came about and what what we mean by dementia program.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Um ours is uh a program that works with individuals with dementia and Alzheimer's, and the reason why we began that was my dad died of Alzheimer's. So, again, that's a personal connection. And I saw firsthand what that did to a family and to caretakers. I was I teamed up with my mom as my dad's care caregiver, and that was that's really hard. That's that's just a really, really harsh disease, and and it's just takes a lot out of the family. So, what we do is we bring in the individuals who are struggling with the memory loss and their caregivers, so that at the same time we bring the the individuals with the memory loss into our arena or out. You can't see this, I'm pointing to our outdoor paddock here in our outdoor arena. Um but they they are brought in, and so our team one-on-one works with them, and then another set of our team works with our caregivers. Away, if it's if it's feasible and reasonable, we have them separated so that so that the caregivers can get a little bit of heart health too, because like I say, we know that that is just a really it's a tough thing. It's just a tough thing. So we care for both of them, and then we uh we do music and and snacks, and we take them into the arena with the horses, of course, and we have them brush and braid and and just have that experience of connecting. And it's remarkable how being that close to the horse really stimulates their memory and their and their their talk, their speech, and their I think they're calm, because I remember my dad would have really radical swings of of behavior and just his reactions and stuff was really it was just on this pendulum of swinging, and you never quite knew. Horses have that really beautiful ability to calm, whether it's their breathing or just standing soundly next to them. And of course, we also know that when you put you lay hands on a horse, it's it's a miraculous thing where the breathing starts to synchronize, the heart rate even synchronizes, and that just brings them to that beautiful calm level of of just being in the moment. And that's really great because oftentimes individuals with Alzheimer's or memory loss are they're hung up in different seasons of their life, but they can't they can't reach into that present moment. But the horses certainly can, and they've helped them do that in a way that's just I mean, we we can't as humans. I remember one time it was so cool because we have a we have a rather large tack room. I always tease when I give tours at call them this is our walk-in closet for our horses. So it's you know, our team is remarkable. They have everything beautifully organized and clean to, you know, beyond belief, and everything's labeled and named and all of this kind of stuff. Well, on the very back hook, there was an old bridle that we had that we don't use, but it's just kind of that, it's just an old vintage thing. But the leather reins are they were almost like two inches wide and super thick, just this beefy, beefy thing. And I was giving a tour, there was an individual who came in in our reminiscing program, and he stepped into it, and he instantly noticed that bridle hanging, and he went over there and he grabbed the reins and he started massaging them in his hands. And he said, He didn't he didn't talk very much at all. In fact, he kind of grunted, and that was sort of his form of of acknowledgement was grunting. And all of a sudden, he said to his wife, he said, I remember these, I held these for years. I used to plow horses with these, and he went on and on. And the wife of ours is a puddle, she's in tears because he just was so expressing in the beautiful memory of that. And and I just think of man, I mean, that's it's a way for them to reconnect that we can't manufacture, you know, we just can't manufacture it.
SPEAKER_00No, the the body knows for sure. So yeah, yeah, yeah. The body knows, yeah, and you so that's beautiful. That's beautiful. Well, you've written a book called Unlikely Recruits. Uh what made you feel like it was time to tell those stories?
SPEAKER_01Well, I already by that time that I started had been doing work for gosh, 10 years, probably 10 years. And uh there were just so many, many veterans that I worked with that one of their deepest desires was to help other veterans. And um, and so I was speaking at a church uh one time years ago and was telling, was telling some of the stories. And um, and after after the the speaking was done, there was a uh a lot of a lot of ladies who were just waiting to see, just to chat with me and whatnot. And there was this one lady at the very end of the line that just kept waiting and letting everyone go ahead of her, and I thought that's kind of peculiar as I'm watching it, but I thought, well, okay. So she said, Hey, I really enjoyed your message, loved your stories. Have you ever thought of writing a book? And I kind of laughed, and I said, Well, um, uh God's been poking me for years to write a book, but I don't have the time to do it, and I just I would never know where to start. I don't, you know, I just know. And she said, Well, let me tell you this. I'm a I'm a Christian book agent, and I think we should talk. Here's my card. So I tucked it in my briefcase, left it for months, didn't do anything about it. Finally, one day I really was feeling like, okay, I probably should call her, and I did. We had a lovely conversation, and she has been marvelous, and and uh yeah, so we put them together, but really my goal was to tell their story, to give them a voice, because one of the things that veterans rarely do is tell their story for many reasons, but this gave them a voice. I think it also gave them um a tool, if you will, to help their family and their friends understand better what they went through and why maybe they sometimes react and behave the way they do because of what they experienced. And I honestly wanted to uh show that uh God shows up in the craziest, most unlikely ways and steps right into the mess with us, never steps away, walks through it. And uh it's been yeah, it's been a really good tool. It really has. It's been a marvelous thing. And I'm I'm just happy that that it's it finally got to be published in and uh you know there's people who are are enjoying reading it.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's good. Well, we will uh certainly put all the links, you know, in the notes and everything so people can find it. Uh you um one of the lines from your book is how God enlists horses to heal veterans. Um what does that mean to you, like in real life? How does that work?
SPEAKER_01I think um it means how we can't do it ourselves, that we we have to be open for the different um the different conduits and different um creatures, if you will, that God puts us together with to help accomplish that. I'm a big, big believer that um God gives each of us passions and um and we are he hopes, I believe that he hopes that we discover them early in life so that we can live a life that God created us for using our passions. So looking back on at me as an example, my passion of horses as a kiddo, and um, and then of course the experience that I had with my dad, and um, and I became a Christian when I was 13 years old in a horse barn. So you you put all those things together and just realizing that there are things, like I said before, I don't care how well prepared you are, I don't care how well you know your horses and the plan that you map out. And then when God decides to enter that moment and say, you know what, that's not exactly how I saw this happening. And that change happens and how he enlists, how he how he acts and brings in the horse's behavior, and how that together is a magnificent tool for healing. And we couldn't have we couldn't have done that on our own. I can't tell you how many times Sylvia, who is the gal that I told you drove up the driveway, spent 10, 11 years with me, um, how many times we would do our thing in the arena, we would be aghast. She is, I called her my sister in Christ because she's just an amazing Christian woman. And how we would watch this all unfold, and in the back of our minds, and actually sometimes we would snicker to each other thinking that's not how we planned it, but boy, did that turn out great. We would go into the office after we would say goodbye to our client, and we'd be in tears because what happened we couldn't have done. We couldn't have done it. And so we knew, I love it when God is so obvious, we knew that he entered that moment, took what would have been common, made it into the most uncommon experience, and that changed the heart of that veteran. And so, you know, that's that's what that line means to me.
SPEAKER_00Wonderful. You talk a lot about hope. What does that actually look like when someone is in a really hard place?
SPEAKER_01Uh hope is everything, actually.
SPEAKER_00If you I have to agree.
SPEAKER_01Oh man, you know, and when people come to us and they, you know, they have really nothing left. We have had uh individuals who have attempted suicide as much as three times before they came to us. And they have absolutely no hope. The only reason that they are there often is because either their one of their family members um or their spouse have said either you go or we're done. And when they show up, there's it's so obvious that they have nothing left in their tank. And so the the most the most slight bit of hope that that can come from an encounter is is absolutely life-saving for them. And um if and again, you go back to the the one thing that we talked about where the horse will follow them or the horse validates them somehow. And yeah, that yeah, you matter. Right. Yep, exactly. That person takes that in. You value you're valuable, you matter, you make a difference. You're not a monster. I can't tell you how many times that I've heard that expression that I don't feel like a monster in the presence of this horse. And that's hope, that's hope-filled. That's another one of the reasons why I wrote the book, because I wanted I wanted people to understand that hope is real. It's not some pipe dream, it's not like some platitude that someone throws out there because you know they don't know what else to say. That's not it. The stories are real and they share what can happen if you have the slightest bit of resolve or desire to have change, to make some sort of change. And by that, then the slightest bit of hope. I mean, we've worked with Gold Star moms, we've worked with, like I say, individuals who've who've not just thought about but have tried taking their lives, and ones who are were so dependent on drugs or alcohol to numb them so that they stopped feeling all of the nightmares and this recurring, this recurring, you know, story that they just can't give up on. Um, and one or another of the activities or experiences with the horses, it changes everything. It just changes because that to them means they're valuable. There is something there, it's worth coming back the next week. I don't know exactly what it is, but and I agree. I I just think that God is all over this because He just creates that curiosity, He creates that lifeline that says, it is worth coming back one more time, just one more time to see what else is there. And it never fails. If there's more of the bridge that's built, there's more of the gap that's filled in, so that they then say, Yeah, I'm coming back again. You know, it's so funny because they the the veterans and the first responders they make a connection with the horses first. We are always last. It's it's kind of one of those things. Yeah, of course. You give up your ego because it's not about us one bit. It is really about the relationship that's built between the horse and the person. And that's what's that's the lifeline. That is absolutely the lifeline because they know that the horses don't have to choose to be with them. They can go to the other side of the rain or they can go to the other side of the pasture, they can do any number of different things that don't involve being next to them. And I had one of our first responders came and um he has had all sorts of just really multiple traumatic experiences as a law enforcement. And he stood there, and the horse came up, and he just stood next to him, just just parallel with him, and just stood there while he was telling his stories, and he said, I have never felt so supported in my life. This horse must understand what I'm saying, and he doesn't leave, he stands there with me, and he's just so supports me. He said, That's why I'm gonna come back.
SPEAKER_00Isn't that wonderful? Yeah. Man. I love that. So what if horses taught you about people?
SPEAKER_01Wow. I would say that horses have taught me. That no matter no matter your experience, no matter your history, no matter your story, that everyone is redeemable. And they bring out the parts of that person's story or character or history that needs to be either reshaped or retold in a way where that person isn't either the victim or the culprit, that they're the they're the survivor for sure of what has happened, but that they're not they're not defined by it. Horses, I think, have told me that all of our stories can be rewritten. If we don't like our past, whether we're the ones who made those choices, or if something entirely different happened, um they are they are so open to that new version of you and they help shape that. And I think we as humans need to believe that, we need to realize that because I don't know of anybody who doesn't like something in their past. And I think that that relationship, that closeness with the horse, and if you if you take the time to to really try to understand them and be close to them, I think that redemptive, that redemptive nature of theirs is is uh man, I mean, that just changes everything.
SPEAKER_02We worked with inmates.
SPEAKER_01We worked with inmates for two years in the Stanley Medium Security Prison. We brought our horses in. We finally took us four years to get the um uh the DOJ's uh approval to do it, but that is where I saw how horses don't judge and how we should learn not to judge, they don't come in with an agenda, they come in just as they are, and because of that, that redemptive value, that redemptive story and lesson man, we're so we can be so open to that. And and I the people that we worked with, they they did really bad things. I mean, absolutely, but how horses chose to treat them, to align with them is something I think we all need to learn because they didn't, it didn't matter, it didn't matter to them what they did, it only mattered to them that they were standing in front of them, their hands were open, they they knew because of how God wired horses that they were open to this relationship, and because of that, the coolest things, the best work I think we've ever done was the times that the years that we spent in the prison. It was remarkable. I mean, it changed us as well, and that's really the cool thing about this work, too. And I'm sure it's the same with your work. You're not the same, you're not supposed to be the same, and and you aren't. It changes you right down to your soul.
SPEAKER_00Oh, Tony, I couldn't agree more. Um, let's talk about how people can find you. And um, you must have um the need for volunteers and things like that. So, how how can people find you? Um, A to learn more about your programs if they're local and how they can help if they're not, if there's something they can donate to, or how you know how does it work? Should find us some all these stuff will be in the show notes too, but let's run down how they find you.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Our website is trinity-ec.com. Trinity-ec.com. That gives you a ton of information. There's a button on there that says get involved for our volunteers. We absolutely love our volunteers. They are the spine of the work that we do because we could not do what we do without them. There's just far too many hands and feet needed. And um, and if anyone's interested, know this. You don't have to be experienced with horses because we train all of our volunteers. And um, and if you are interested in donating, there's a button that just says get involved and you can donate, you can help with events. Um, in fact, we have a big event coming up in September. It's our second strength in service summit. It's all about um getting reset, kind of finding that and rebuilding your resilience. We have speakers coming in from all over the country. It is going to be amazing. We had our first one last year on site. Everything was on site Friday night and Saturday, and we had about 250 people. It's for first responders, veterans, their family, friends, those that stand with them, social workers, you name it. Anybody, anybody who's interested in how this world works among that, among those people who really are defenders and protectors, and what it takes to keep them buoyant and safe and sound.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's amazing. But we need a lot of help, need a lot of help with that too.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Well, that's great. Okay. Um, last thing I want to ask you about. Um, because you know, I have six horses of my own. Yes. Yes. Uh is there that one horse, that one horse that everyone says, you know, hmm, this one's different. Is there somebody who like just is really special out of the many, many horses you have?
SPEAKER_01Wow, out of our 38-year-old.
SPEAKER_00That's not a fair question, is it?
SPEAKER_01I personally, I personally think um there is one that I always go to. I mean, if I if I need to uh pull a horse out to do a demo or whatever, um, yes, his name is Stanley. He's a big, big paint.
SPEAKER_00Stanley.
SPEAKER_01And um just beautiful, beautiful. However, I my horse, my personal horse, I had to put down about four years ago. And um his name was Casper, big old all-white Appaloosa, had him for 20 years. And just a love. Um, but you know, I have to say, he, you know, he was he was so special to me, but he was not a very good therapy horse. He just wasn't. No, that's exactly right. He was not, he was not called for that, but he was a perfect match for me. Um, but Stanley, on the other hand, he's a love. He's a he's just he just wants to connect, he just wants to come up and snuggle, and he is a big 16-hand, probably 1300-pound guy. Oh, that's wonderful. Just can't get enough of us. So yeah, but that's an interesting question. Because I'll bet you if I asked any of our staff and our our other therapists and everything, they'd all come up with somebody different. You know, no matter how how big, you know, he is, he's just a big, big guy, 16 hands and and about 1,300 pounds. But his real his real desire is just to connect and to snuggle and and you know, come up to you. And no matter if he doesn't know you at all, we bring brand new people into the pasture. He's the first one who notices there's somebody in, and boom, he's beelining over just to say hello and and just to connect, and it's so funny. So yeah, he has to be my choice. But I'm I'm sure that if you asked other staff members and other teammates, they would probably have their own choice of which horse would be their first choice, but Stanley's mine.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's that's wonderful. Yeah, we all have horses like that. I can't wait to meet him. I'm sure I'm gonna meet him.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, yes, you will.
SPEAKER_00Okay, good. Um, well, Tony, this has been such a meaningful conversation. I really appreciate the work you're doing and the way you shared it today. Um, bless you, bless your team, bless your horses. I'm just uh I can't wait to meet you in person. I'm so lucky I live close by. And uh thank you again for being on the show.
SPEAKER_01You are so welcome. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it. God bless you.