Sam Ayoub & Daniel O'Loughlin - Players need an experienced guide

Sam Ayoub & Daniel O'Loughlin discuss the Player Manager's role in assisting, influencing and guiding a pro athlete through their career on and off the field. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 0:22 Background of Ayoub and O'Loughlin
• 2:33 Growth during players' career
• 4:50 How much responsibility agents take for players
• 6:58 When do you start planning for life after 40?
• 12:16 Some of the financial challenges players face
• 17:51 Who do these agents take good pride of?
• 19:44 How their philosophies have changed
• 22:25 Advice that's resonated with the agents
• 23:05 Great player success stories
• 27:21 Conclusion

Transcript

Brent Read: 0:02

Hello,and welcome to the second episode of Athletes Journey,winning on and Off the Field,a special podcast series looking at the financial journey of athletes through the eyes of some of Australia's most influential sporting figures.I'm Brent Read and today I'm joined by respect,the Player agents,Sam Ayoub and Daniel O'Loughlin.Welcome gents.

Daniel O'Loughlin: 0:21

Hi Brent.

Sam Ayoub: 0:22

Hey,Ready.How you doing?

Brent Read: 0:23

I'm good,I'm good.Let's,well,we might as well start with a bit of background on you,two,on you,on you guys.Um,tell us how you got into sport,sports management,sports agency,and,uh,where it began.

Daniel O'Loughlin: 0:34

I'll let the elder statesman go first.Should I?

Sam Ayoub: 0:36

Oh,we're starting with that line.Okay.Um,my background's originally property.I worked in property for a long period of time,um,involved in sport and had mates that played league,et cetera,et cetera.Um,so I sort of was researching how sports management was,you know,a growth industry in Europe and America and that sort of thing.I'd had a couple of chats to Jack Gibson at the time and,um,Jack suggested,you know,that a lot of these guys here don't get.That sort of support and help and whatnot.And he sort of encouraged me to do it.So I helped a few of the boys out that I was close to,had a bit to do with.That's where it started,really.Had a bit to do with him there and next thing I was getting calls from blokes suggesting that,uh,that,uh,you know,Jack suggest they give me a call and,you know,I,I fiddled around with it for a couple of years and a couple of years after that,doing a lot for love and,uh,decided I may as well have a crack at it.Yeah.So that's the background.

Daniel O'Loughlin: 1:38

Yeah.Um,I was at a bit of a crossroads,uh,in a good way.Um,I'd had a business in Dubai for some time.Um,my dad was quite ill at the time.Um,the business in Dubai,part of the GFC was coming to an end,so I took some time off to work or helped my dad out.Um,and his then partner.Um,so I moved back home with him for six months just to get him through the first part.And I'd been already helping up helping a few mates of mine.Uh,guys like Tony and Frank Puletua,uh,uh,Nigel Vagana,just with some property,investment advice,just general stuff.And,uh,very cliche,but one thing led to another,and here we are,14years later,I decided that,um,it might be something of interest and,uh,maybe I could make a difference similar to Sam and,and help some of these young men.And that's how I'm sitting here today.

Brent Read: 2:32

Talk to us about how you guys,uh,typically help athletes.Managing their finances through that journey.Ob,obviously,they start on,generally start on not a lot of money,uh,growth during their career.Give,give us an idea about how you help them manage that,that,that money that comes in their life.

Daniel O'Loughlin: 2:50

Yeah,so look,we have a suite of service providers.Um,I,I like to use the analogy,we're a bit like a gp.We know a bit about everything.But once we identify what help you need,we refer you to a specialist,and that's the best way I can do it.Um,we also like to have several in each category.Um,we want there to be an opportunity to,for players to find the right fit for them.And just because a particular mortgage broker,a buyer's agent,An accountant might fit one player.Um,so we advise them to meet with a couple,and as always,of course,sometimes they have family,friends,their parents,et cetera.So that's normally the starting point.

Sam Ayoub: 3:32

Very much the same.Um,to be honest,Daniel,it's um,it's funny how you become streetwise working in property.Um,My background there was with a company called Household Finance.You might remember them.They,uh,they were sponsors of the Bulldogs when they won those three grand finals in the,uh,mid eighties.And they also were sponsors of Hawthorne that won three grand finals.Then,so they,back then they had a,uh,A portfolio of branches about130around Australia.It wasn't internet and all that sort of stuff back then.So I,uh,I was,uh,probably my role was to negotiate in and out of those leases and relocations and refurbishments and that sort of stuff.So it's amazing how much you sort of learned from that.I sort of,uh,converted that.Into,um,assisting players more so try and encourage'em to save and buy their first property or part of their contracts,negotiate and get advances on their contracts to use them as deposits.Things were reasonably flexible back then,unlike the current day where you need to get approval to get an advance on a contract to help a player.Back then you could just do that through the clubs.And it was,they were all,they were all very conscious of wanting to do the same and help the players.So getting advances on contracts wasn't difficult to get the players started.

Brent Read: 4:50

Can I ask you,as agents,we all look at it from the outside and th...think the agent's primary role is to negotiate a good deal.Right?That's the starting point.The,the bit after that,that is making sure the players don't fritter that money away.Right how as an agent,whilst you,you get people to help you with that,how much responsibility do you take for that,that as well,to make sure your players don't,because I'm sure there's examples.I think we had Jonathan Thurston on here,he said when he initially started,I think he got,most of his money put away and he was given an allowance.

Sam Ayoub: 5:22

That's,uh,that's very true.Uh,unfortunately,again,uh,I'll,um,I'll,uh,be specific about the fact that we're not financial planners.So as Daniel said earlier,we do surround ourselves with good people,accountants,financial planners,uh,a network of agents,uh,in different areas to sort of help players.And so it's more about having a network that,and we act as a conduit for that network,would encourage our players along the way to save,because if there's money in their pockets,it burns a hole real quick.

Daniel O'Loughlin: 5:53

Yeah,I think,um,And J.T's a great example.Um,you know,Sam's been on that journey with him.The hardest part is,uh,let's be honest,we're dealing with young men here and you can give them the most prudent,the best advice.Um,and they won't always take that advice.So for me,It's,uh,continually giving them the same message and then trying to create pa...Parameters that help them with that.So yeah,whether it's creating a savings account that someone else is a signatory on so that they need a second signatory to get it out,it's not effectively that you or someone else can access that money,it's just a barrier,to them having eight beers on a Friday and deciding they want to take out an extra thousand,et cetera,et cetera.So yeah,little things like that.Um,some players,it clicks really early.Other players,they get to27,28and look around and go,"oh,Sam,Daniel,I get what you're saying now"and you frantically spend the last five years doing it.It just depends on the individual.

Brent Read: 6:57

Well,when,when do you talk about the last five years,when do you start planning for the end of it,because some careers don't last forever.They last few years.Some last...J.T's a good example,15years.When do you start planning for life after,40.

Sam Ayoub: 7:13

It,it varies on the individual again,Daniel doesn't it?Uh,it really does.It,it's when the penny drops with them.Um,we can,we can talk to ware horse.It's when the penny drops with them.Um,and often they're dictated by their upbringing,uh,by their family surroundings.Uh,by,you know,New wives,partners,girlfriend...

Daniel O'Loughlin: 7:33

Cultural as well?

Sam Ayoub: 7:34

Very much.

Daniel O'Loughlin: 7:35

Sam would be very familiar.Um,I think we're at50%now,Pacific and Polynesian.We've always had a,a great representation of indigenous athletes.Um,we have people of all races,you know,Lebanese,Anglo Australians,but culture is another big one.Each culture will have different expectations and family expectations,which can be a,a positive or a challenge.

Brent Read: 7:58

Well,how do you,how do you juggle that,the cultural.Challenges you face as well.

Sam Ayoub: 8:02

You gotta tread carefully with some.You've gotta tread very carefully

Daniel O'Loughlin: 8:06

and do your best to learn and understand.The expectations and then while being,respect for them also being able to have,I feel a tough conversation

Sam Ayoub: 8:15

Absolutely.

Daniel O'Loughlin: 8:16

Without crossing a line where you cause a fence

Sam Ayoub: 8:19

...in that manner,sorry.Just on that,uh,you'll find we tend to have to structure their contracts at times to cater for,uh,percentage,whatever that may be,to go to their father or to their mother or to their brothers.So depending on what,uh,nationality and heritage,some of them are meal tickets for their families,

Brent Read: 8:42

which as an agent,I would imagine,when you,your,your concerns with the individual rather than,The wider net.Well,you've gotta take into account the wider network,but your primary concerns with the individual,right?So that must be a difficult,difficult line to walk.

Daniel O'Loughlin: 8:56

The other thing is,um,and,and,you know,let's address it,it's a bit of an elephant in the room...religion is another one within those cultures.Um,I have clients that makes significant contributions on a monthly basis,just like they do to the tax office,just like they do to super;to their church.Um,I was raised in a Catholic family,I've got no problem with any religion or a lack of religion,that's irrelevant.But I do not have a problem sometimes in questioning"why are we making this donation on a regular basis?"What is it for?Uh,that in itself can be a tough conversation,but sometimes it needs to be had,

Sam Ayoub: 9:32

you know,I'm sure you've got,uh,many now that don't have a dollar to their name and they've been in the game for10years and a lot of that does go to their family and their churches and that sort of thing.So it is a difficult conversation to have,but it's gotta be had at some stage.

Brent Read: 9:47

Is it hard not to take that personally when you've managed someone for that long and at the end of it,like you must feel a little bit of a sense of responsibility for that if a player at the end of his career has got,got no money,even though you might have been banging away at him for a decade to save some money,buy a house.

Sam Ayoub: 10:05

Absolutely.I mean,Um,uh,you,you've had it,there's no doubt.But,you know,we get to,they get to the,towards the end of their career and they're complaining about not having a house and not having property.But you'll find somewhere along the way that we either met with them,we met with their welfare,we met with their clubs and at every opportunity and tried to put structures and,uh,you know,into place to help them.But they resisted that help and that assistance and,at the end of the day,we sometimes get criticised for where they are,but nobody knows the path that we took to help to prevent them from getting to where they are.

Daniel O'Loughlin: 10:45

Yeah.And Sam's been doing this a lot longer than me,so he'd have a lot of experience.But in my14years,um,I'd say I've progressed.I used to lose sleep over it.I'm not exaggerating because I would try so hard.And I got to a point where I realised,um,You know,you can lead the horse to water.Um,I still try.And,um,just recently,uh,one of our players who shall remain nameless but has made significant money in the game,purchased his first home at26.And the relief for me,um,I,I,I can't describe it cause he's a great fella,but he just made bad choices.Um,a lot of these guys,gamble.Um,you know,they have more air maxes than you can poke a stick at,um,and N B A singlets,but it was so relieving for me to see him get the first house.And ironically,um,he's now talking about buying a second one.I can't change the fact that he would've literally earned gross,obviously3or4million before now,I can't change that,but I'm really glad that the penny's dropped and that's what you hope for in the end.But as Sam said,there will be players that you end up and they get to the end of that journey and they have very little to show for it.And yeah,sometimes you just have to realize that there was nothing more you could do.

Sam Ayoub: 12:11

Well,as long as you know you made effort along the way,then there's not much you can do.

Brent Read: 12:15

You've,you've mentioned some of the financial challenges,athletes facing and you guys fa...facing,um,with them.Can you sort of talk a bit a,about a few of them?The other ones maybe that you haven't mentioned.I mean,obviously they,there's gambling issues.You,you said there's,there's fam...families that,that put pressure on,on athletes.Uh,you know,they make bad investments that you can't stop the making occasion cause they get advice from other people.Right.Who aren't in your circle.

Daniel O'Loughlin: 12:42

If you don't mind,I,I,I'd love to chat about this one.And we alluded to it as we were chatting prior,um,you know,It's cycl...It,it's very secular...sorry.Um,different things happen.So the three of us were talking about NFTs and crypto.These are young men,um,they have a lot of free time.Um,there are always guys that are probably a little bit more financially literate or more intelligent.There are guys that are less intel...that's society,that's not just football.If you put a group of young men from any industry in a room.Although I'd say if they were all studying medicine at Sydney Uni,it'd be a little bit different,but a,a general,um,you know,cross section of society,um,and so.There was,you know,18months ago,a number of,um,players,um,started to want to invest in NFTs and crypto.And it was literally like a snowball effect.A particular,uh,gentleman,uh,who's based in Dubai,who had this social media profile,started this N F T collection...all of a sudden,each player was posting it.I spoke to my players because it just kept popping up on my feed and I walked them through,I did some research and said,look,these are the risks,et cetera,et cetera.Long story short,they all got given pre-access as I predicted,and they sold out immediately predominantly to,uh,footballers and,and,and,uh,musicians and entertainment people that are in Pacific or Polynesian descent.Cause it was sort of became a community.Um,though were given,I think,two NFTs for about$600each.$1,200on average.Our players spent that bought in,um,they were worth about four grand within the first week,so they could have sold.I told a lot of them,sell one,keep one,and see what happens.Most of them didn't,and effectively now they'd be worth less than$10.So these are the kind of things,that's just one example.Um,there's constantly,you know,and I,there have been some great success stories,the boys,um,that have done Y K T R and all of that.But for every one clothing label that doesn't make it,I'd say there's about,I.You know,another nine that are attempted that don't,et cetera,et cetera.And you would've seen plenty of these.So yeah,

Sam Ayoub: 15:00

it's,uh,the quick,uh,cash grab...

Brent Read: 15:02

...Cause footballers would be,athletes would be an attraction for that,they would've,they would've had people coming to them all the time.

Sam Ayoub: 15:09

Absolutely.Absolutely.I mean,years back,we,we heard about a group of guys that invested into a property with a big developer at the time.And,uh,I was anti all that sort of stuff,especially off the plan type stuff.Um,and,uh,they sort of all lost a fair whack and,uh,You know,it it it's society again though,isn't it?

Daniel O'Loughlin: 15:32

Yes.

Sam Ayoub: 15:32

We just try to apply our,I suppose our general experience and,and there's a lot of factors that also govern them as well.It's the,the drink,the drugs,the skirt in particular,potentially.And,um,and they waivers them away from their ambitions sometimes,unfortunately.

Brent Read: 15:52

Cause as I said,they're,they,they,they,they would get.All sorts of things thrown at them.And they wouldn't always run it by their,their agents,would they?So the,you can't be watching them24/7.Right.

Daniel O'Loughlin: 16:05

And,and every player will have influential people in their life,some for a long period of time and some for a short period of time.Um,we all here would've had people that were in our life for a period that are no longer in,that's,that's just life.But,um,you know,I had a player who was due to settle on a property a couple of years ago.Uh,everything was,kosher.We went to settlement and his savings was30grand short,and I said,what happened to the$30,000?I've invested in a clothing label.So we had to frantically beg the club for a prepayment.And as Sam said,that's not as easy it was at once was with salary cap,uh,repercussions,et cetera.Now we got the property deal done,but I didn't know that he'd,uh,invested in his clothing.

Sam Ayoub: 16:50

Well,we had exactly the same situation more recently,but that was his,uh,partner had access to his accountants was spending up pretty big.Uh,and those sort of things are outta our control.At the end of the day,um,we try and help and guide'em.Uh,we're a conduit to getting them with financial planners that will more readily and,and more legally,um,take care of those responsibilities,uh,to some extent,and they copy us and keep us involved because we act as pseudo parents,pseudo family in most cases.I mean,uh,there's lots of stories about,you know,where we sit with players'families and kids.And I,I suppose because of my age,I'll bring this up this time,um,because of my age,I,I mean I manage sort of eight,nine players now whose dads I managed and I'm godfather,seven or eight of my players'kids.And so you develop those sort of relationships and then they do start,they trust you as well along the way.So...

Brent Read: 17:51

you've been in the game longer than Dan...and Daniel,as you said,J.T's one of your,the great success stories,right?I mean,you,you got him buying property when he was...

Sam Ayoub: 18:00

well,he,his first contract,uh,we got a contract advanced and as I said,the,I bought a property in the unit block,the unit came up and I bought it.He still has that till today and it's,uh,probably will look,uh,

Brent Read: 18:12

you take great pride outta that Sam mate.

Sam Ayoub: 18:14

You get a lot of pride,a lot of satisfaction,and,and you sort of,they sort of appreciate it now too.You know,like whether it's him or anybody else and a lot of others,you know...again,don't wanna name names,but I've had three or four recently,I've ensured that part of the first thing,it's a forced savings measure if,if nothing else,buying property and forcing them to pay it,you know,and they've become,they've become more appreciative of the money they're earning,uh,rather than blowing it.They know where it's going.Yeah.

Brent Read: 18:45

What,what about Daniel,take great pride out of seeing a,a guy who,who may have started with nothing and then the end of his career's got property...

Daniel O'Loughlin: 18:54

a hundred percent.And,um,the one thing that I would say,um,you know,there's a perception that,you know,all of us agents we're all against each other.I,I,I've got no problem in reaching out to guys like Sam,um,Chimes,you know,David Riolo,there's a lot of good operators in the game,have got a lot of experience and,um,you know,picking their brains.But at the end of the day,Getting these guys to understand,yes,you make some decent money,but if you divide that over65years,because that's the general retirement age,you're only working at early thirties if you're lucky enough to get there.So we've gotta make that money work for us and the player very aggressively.Absolutely.Over that period to set up for hopefully the next chapter of their working lives,how,

Brent Read: 19:44

how can you give us insight to how maybe your philosophies have changed?Financial management philosophies have changed over the years.Like,it sounds like property's always been a big thing for you,Sam,right?

Sam Ayoub: 19:53

Well,it is,uh,it,it's stable.It,it grows over time.I think you spoke about that earlier,uh,Daniel,where,where,uh,you know,you said they'd want to,they would look at having a million bucks and they'd want to see a greater return than a net8%,which compounded over a period of10years adds up to a lot more money than they would imagine.

Daniel O'Loughlin: 20:14

Yeah.So like Sam,I just don't think you can go wrong with property if you invest smartly,but if you are successful and start to advance beyond that,or if you're a player who's in the upper echelon,um,I think so...you know,the scale of economy,we're never gonna be the NBA or the N F,NFL or the APL.But if you look abroad,a lot of,uh,athletes are becoming smarter investors and looking for an equity play versus just doing something for cash.Um,if you look,and again,our guys don't earn the money that the cricketers do,but Steve Smith's a great example where he has taken equity in companies or startups versus just to cash to say,"Hey,I'm an ambassador for koala mattresses."Um,so we're always looking at those opportunities.I think if there's something where a player can use their brand to get some equity,it's low risk.And if they believe in it.So looking outside,the traditional,uh,property on shares is always worthwhile,but doing that very prudently and diligently is,is also another way.

Brent Read: 21:19

Is that an area you see growing?

Daniel O'Loughlin: 21:21

A hundred percent.So there's actually a couple of businesses,um,that have started that,um,uh,I forget the name of it,but there's a collection of athletes,I think Michael Hooper,Andrew Bogut,Toby Greene,I think,and it's something the N R L and,and,Sam,myself and other agents could look at is,is potentially the bigger the pool of money,um,the more likely you can get opportunities and maybe at,at one stage down the line,players could resource their funds together and look at opportunities,uh,going forward.

Sam Ayoub: 21:54

Well,I think the asset management fund,uh,that B...BPC,uh,putting together and have put together at the moment,I think that's targeted,uh,at athletes and players and,and whatnot,uh,to a conglomerate of them invest,and not only them,but uh,You know,people with financial influence invest in those sort of funds and together they make money...so that's the intent of,uh,financial organisations like these asset management companies,uh...

Brent Read: 22:25

is there,is there a piece of advice that's resonated with you guys that you've been given or that you've given to,to someone over the years that's really stuck with you?

Daniel O'Loughlin: 22:34

Um,yeah,I,I,I think,uh,the expression time is both your friend and enemy is really important.So as footballers,they're conscious that they have a short time in the game.But Sam alluded to the8%and the compound interest and time is also your friend.If you are patient and you invest well,Money will continue to grow,as will your capital investment,potentially.So don't always be looking for the quick fix and the quick buck.

Sam Ayoub: 23:04

I,uh,my father at an early age encouraged us,myself,my brother,and myself too.He helped us with a bit of money and,uh,we put it into a property,did a little reno on,on it,turned it over.So,I've always stuck with property to a great extent.I know there's much,uh,wider,uh,avenues to invest money these days,but I find property solid.It's there and it,uh,it,it,it'll forever grow.It'll have it down.It's downturns,but you don't,you want,they won't go wrong investing in property.

Brent Read: 23:33

So in that sense of you,your philosophy hasn't really changed?

Sam Ayoub: 23:37

It hasn't changed greatly,no.Other than for the fact that I do refer them to the right accountants,to the right financial planners.Uh,and that's probably changed.

Brent Read: 23:46

What about you,Daniel?Is just...

Daniel O'Loughlin: 23:47

yeah,no,I think I'm with Sam.Um,particularly if they can have a passive income post football,which is property provides.If you can have three or four rental properties and,and you've got at least80%equity and own your own home,I think that's a realistic goal based on the current minimum wage,which is nearly,um,you know,In excess of a hundred thousand dollars when the CBAs agreed upon.And,um,if you can do that,And hypothetically generate80to a hundred thousand dollars a year in rental income,passive income,then all of a sudden120-$150job,plus that$150,000job,sorry.Plus that means you can maintain a sort of a really good lifestyle that you are probably used to and you're not forced into a picking a job based on just the income.You know,you hear about guys going and working in the mines,uh,You know,pays well,but with footballers that have had multiple knee injuries and,and shoulder injuries,et cetera,it's hard yakka.So,yeah,that,that would be my,uh,best advice.And if you get to a point where you have some,some funds that you wanna diversify,then you,you can address that at the time.

Brent Read: 24:58

Does the,I mentioned before,the pride you take out of seeing guys at the end of their career and they've,they've done well with their money.Have you got any Great,can you share any great success,success stories or any...and without,even,without naming names,but with maybe players who,who you've taken great pleasure out of,of what they've been able to do.

Sam Ayoub: 25:17

I,I wouldn't wanna name any names,but Yeah,you do,like the,the personal rewards far outweigh anything you learn,uh,from those players over their careers and,wanna see him do well,I,there's players that I managed that are doing outstanding,uh,work and outstanding,have outstanding success presently,and you just get pride of having an association with them at some stage during their career.

Daniel O'Loughlin: 25:40

I,I'd say,Exactly the same as Sam.We've got some really good success stories.Um,obviously Sam's been doing it a lot longer,so,you know,the majority of our players are in sort of the prime of their career.Um,but we've still had some really good success stories.But the other one that I'd elude to is,um,I have a player who,um,you know,wouldn't leave a certain club...not because he didn't want to,he wasn't getting enough opportunities at the time,but he wanted to wait an additional year...to finish his degree,um,because he was based in New Zealand,obviously the club's pretty obvious.Um,and he didn't come to an Australian club until he finished his degree,and that I took a great deal in pride of,because no matter what happens,he has a career post-football.He is now a regular N R L player.He,he's,he's bought property,but the short-term pain of staying one extra year at the Warriors and allowing him to finish his degree will be worth10times that post-football because he has a career and,um,he now is flourishing in his N R L career,but he was stuck behind a few,but it was a really good decision at the time to sit tight and get that degree in his back pocket,so to speak.

Sam Ayoub: 26:52

Credit's gotta go to clubs these days too.Their welfare program,their,their education programs are far greater than they were,you know,10,15years ago.So,and some of them do it far better than others and encourage their players to.To do further education,tertiary education allowances,we were talking about that earlier.There can never,there should never be a,a cap on what you can provide players to get further education,and that's something that I'm strong about.

Brent Read: 27:21

That's a good note to finish on,sam.Sam,you've given the.The N R L some advice.We like that faring them up.

Sam Ayoub: 27:28

It's not the first time.No.

Brent Read: 27:31

Thanks Sam.Thanks Daniel.And thank you for joining us on Athletes Journey,winning on and off the field.Um,stay tuned.

Daniel O'Loughlin: 27:39

Thanks for having us.

Sam Ayoub: 27:40

Thank you.