Broke Boyz From Fresno
Hey everyone it's Martin from the Broke Boyz From Fresno Podcast, my goal here is to entertain, inspire, and uplift our community. I'm all about keeping it real, sharing my daily struggles, and motivating others who might be going through the same. Join me as we navigates life’s challenges, supports one another, and builds a stronger, more connected community together.
Broke Boyz From Fresno
DENGE TKO: Fresno's Notorious Graffiti Bomber
Denge from TKO Crew joins us to share his journey in graffiti art, from his early inspirations to becoming part of a worldwide crew with members across LA, New York, Mexico, and Canada.
• The origins of Denge's tag name and how he developed his signature style at age 13
• Understanding the difference between "bombers" and "style" artists in graffiti culture
• The unwritten rules and politics of graffiti, including what happens when someone goes over your work
• Heart-pounding stories of narrow escapes from law enforcement, including jumping across freeways
• How reading and self-education transformed Denge's mindset and approach to life
• The worldwide reach of TKO crew and how they operate across different cities
• Why Denge considers graffiti an addiction and describes it as a natural high unlike any other
• Powerful perspectives on dealing with betrayal by "killing them with success"
• The misconception that all graffiti writers are troublemakers when they're just normal people with passion
• Denge's philosophy about facing fears: "The cave you fear the most holds the most valuable possessions"
Check out Daze's work on Instagram at @_dengeone_
Follow us @ brokeboyz_ff on Instagram and TikTok
Intro Music by Rockstar Turtle- Broke Boyz (999)
Christmas Intro Song by Nico
Welcome back to another episode. I'm Martin, I'm DJ and today we got a special guest. Go ahead and please introduce yourself to everybody that's watching.
Speaker 2:I'm Daze the TKO crew.
Speaker 1:Okay, word Word. That's good. So, before we go ahead and continue with this episode, we got a lot of stuff to dive in, so we're going to dive into a lot of the graffiti, art and history behind it. And thank you for coming out here. I know it's a trip and it's a mission to come out here, but, uh, thank you. So let's go ahead and let's roll the intro. We them.
Speaker 2:Broke boys from the hood. We on them issues understood won't catch his lack and we that good, we always winning like we should.
Speaker 3:We flying high, we butterfly up to the sky. No way you catching us.
Speaker 1:Goodbye my first question I want to ask you is how did you find from my page?
Speaker 2:um, I was looking through and I seen like the name caught my eye and I was like what is this? Broke Boys from Fresno.
Speaker 1:He was like this is retaliation, yeah.
Speaker 2:I was like what is this? And then I started seeing like there was like interviews and different things and I was like I was kind of like appealing. So I was like, oh, you know what, let me see, let me look a little more. And I started seeing you guys had, um, a couple people on. So after that, you know, I kind of took initiative and said, hey, you know what I want to see. If I can get an interview, yeah, get the graffiti the graffiti scene.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no and thank you. I saw the message and I sent him a message to dj and see that I was just like I really want to do this episode like this is. This is great. I love learning things, I love history behind different things, um, so that's definitely like something that I would love to showcase. So I was like, yeah, I'm for this, for sure thank you.
Speaker 2:I appreciate you guys having me man heck, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:That's an opportunity, man. And then it's also crazier because when he texted me that I was, like bro, a graffiti artist, like I've never I've met a professional graffiti artist when I was younger, but like the level of professionalism back then probably wasn't as high as I thought it was Right. But being able to see someone who's actually in the scene, who's actively doing it, like tell us a little bit about scene, who's actively doing it, like tell us a little bit about it, bro, about the lifestyle, like when did you know like this was your form of work, so to speak?
Speaker 2:It goes back to like, as far as I can remember, like I want to say like 9 or 10. And I remember like my mom would write on the back of the envelopes the mail. I don't know if she was doodling or I don't know what the heck she was doing, but I think that's kind of where it transpired and as I got older like 13,.
Speaker 2:I ended up seeing graph videos of most of the people were from new york, right, yeah, it was like jay stuff, code 2, uh, scene cast five. And then when I seen I think it was ward 2 that came out and this is the crew I'm a part of now, which is tkl. Yeah, and they're from like the 80s. You know, shout out to Murty Lopes for putting me on and I know it's kind of like. I've always wanted to get into KO, right, that was like my goal. So I ended up reaching that goal. You know that I wanted and I ended up meeting them. You know that I wanted and, um, I ended up meeting him. Can't say too much about like the initiation and stuff, but, um, yeah, that's where I transpired. And then, after seeing those videos, I was like, you know, I gotta come up with a name and me personally, I've always been like the type of person that wanted to create my own stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I was like I don't want any name, I want to make up a name. And I was good at the letter Ds and I liked Es. And then I was cool at Ns and I was like gotta have a G in there, Gotta bounce it off with an E. So I was like dench, dench, I will go with it. Because it was like what do you say acronyms? Yeah, it was like what do you say acronyms? And it was like what was it? When I first came out with it? I think it was like that evil, notorious graph where everyone knows or everyone remembers. And then I took off the R and I was like I'm just going by Dench.
Speaker 2:So when I was 13 thatinger Dench I'm just gonna go by Dench. So when I was 13, that's when I officially made the name Dench heck.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's something incredible, bro, being able to like really find your own passion and identity at that age, like I knew. For me it was like cars and shit. Back then that was, that was for sure, my bloodline. But to get into something very artistic, but something so specific in that form of art that you made a name for yourself, that's incredible, bro. And I know that graffiti scene back then definitely hit a lot more than it does now. Definitely. I feel like the culture for graffiti artists now it's almost like a lost style trait and it's still good to see people you know tagging certain things. Like sometimes I'll be driving on the freeway and I'll see a whole train side just blast and I'm just like hell, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So tell us the difference between the styles, because we were talking about graffiti art and then the different.
Speaker 2:There's, there's two different, uh, varieties, right, yeah, yeah, well, there's um, for me there's a, there's like a graffiti bomber, and then there's like, it's almost like like basketball, like n NBA in college. There's always two of the polar opposites. So people with.
Speaker 2:Style is more like the artistic side, but they can also be bombers too, depending on where they're putting it. But bombers is more street. There's nothing about free walls that we care about. We don't want permission, we just want to hit whatever we want. It doesn't matter, and that's just how some of us live by, but the majority of the people make their own rules and have their own codes. Some people think it's wrong to paint on churches or businesses, right, and some people are like you know, that's stupid and let's not do that. Let's go hit a freeway spot. Everyone has their own thing, so to each his own, you know, yeah, and there's really no rules when it comes to deciding what you want to paint, but there is rules about what you go over okay, so there's like politics in behind this whole thing in a sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it kind of came from. Depends on where, what part of you know the city you're from. If you're from LA, I think it started with like tag-banging Right.
Speaker 1:So there would be actual gang members with tagging crews Tagging at the walls.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is where we're from, yeah, and they'll make up a crew, but also be banging. And then New York that's why it took, like a liking, more to like New York, because it was all like just bombing. Right, we're painting, we're hitting trains, we're doing streets, and you know the same with LA. Like those two cities, man, are probably like the mecca of all craft. Right, you know Philly too, but that's the majority of where all the pioneers came out, of all the people that somebody came from. You know, there's just a ton of riders, man, and it's like with anything in life, it's like why do you think it's only a few people that make an impact? Why do you think there's?
Speaker 2:only a few people that make an impact. Why do you think there's a few people that stand out right? It's because it's like a formula with anything is that you're doing something that the next man is not doing. You're pushing, you're pushing, your, your limits, you're you know, depending on what that is. If you're you want to do street stuff or get permission walls like artists and bombing, it's two different things to me they're two different worlds.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like for me on that whole thing is more like when I get older and I can't do street shit, then I'll go to trains or free wall stuff. Okay, that's how I feel about it. I'm not saying that's how I feel You're like that's chump change.
Speaker 2:But I've never been a person of style. I can actually draw. Okay, I can actually draw cheap eyes. You're an artist. Yeah, yeah, I can really draw. I can actually draw cheap-eyed. You're an artist. Yeah, I can really draw. I can really write, but I just choose not to do it Because I don't know. There's like this thing in me where my ego has to be fed. I really don't know where it comes from. That's the only way to fill my need and it's just overwhelming, man, and there's nothing like painting street stuff. It's like a high dude. It's like a high like. I don't do no drugs, I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do anything. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do anything. The only thing I do is drive, you know, and that's the only thing. I'm addicted to, man, and I'll never stop. I'll find some way to do it and you know, I just don't want to stop. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Not that I can't do it, but I just don't want to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's your passion, what you like to do. That's something beautiful man.
Speaker 1:That's crazy so like if you could name one of your favorite pieces. Do you have a name for it? This episode is brought to you by Never Trusted. Before we keep it rolling, we got to give a big shout out to our sponsor, never trusted, straight out of the 559. They've been repping the culture and the grind since day one. Never trusted is more than just a brand. It's a statement. It's for the ones who hustle, the ones who have been counted out and the ones who never folded under pressure. You'll catch this rocking never trusted on the podcast, in the street and at advance, because it is fresno made, fresno raised and built for everybody chasing something bigger. So if you're trying to support local and you want gear that actually speaks to the lifestyle, go tap in with never trusted. Hit their socials, grab your drip and let them know the broke boy sent you. Never trusted was built in the 559. Trusted by no one, respected by all.
Speaker 3:Now back to the episode or do you have a visual that you want to show the audience, uh, of any of your pieces that you've made?
Speaker 2:well, mine is kind of just like the bubble throw up kind of like graph, street stuff, right, um, not really artsy. But there is one that I'm gonna do. I can give some insight on it. It's gonna be half good and half evil and I'm gonna have somebody, um, actually paint yoda and dark vader and they're gonna be cutting it in half and half of it's going to be the green and yellow.
Speaker 3:That's crazy, that's going to be wicked man, that's going to be sick, bro, Damn dog. So, in regards to your art style right, you said it's more like a bubble throw-up type deal. Was there somebody that inspired you to do that style? Or was that something you were just like oh, I'm good at this, I'm going to just keep doing it.
Speaker 2:I actually took pieces from all the greats that I follow Right. So it wasn't just one particular person, right. So I got like the I don't know. There's been like tons of freeways where I just hit Back to back is just like I probably did like 300. Damn, I hit the 180, 168, the 99. It's all in one night, right. So I'm just glitzing everything.
Speaker 2:And then I got that from a writer from New York, he's known as JA, and then I got that from a writer from New York, he's known as JA, and I got my E's from Scene which is another writer from New York Right and I kind of got like the I want to say like the mindset from like different artists, like T-Logues from TKO, I would say Kez 5 from New York, and Cap too, one of my favorites. He's like the all-time bragging everybody, which means like going over people, so he was like the inventor of like dissing Right right, oh, so when somebody goes over their art, that's a personal diss, yeah well, this is why I said about the rules right.
Speaker 2:So the rules in graph supposedly is if I hit a tag, just a regular tag, I can go over with a throw up. Okay.
Speaker 2:And then if someone comes with a burner, they can go over with a throw up, okay, and then if someone comes with the burner, they can go over mine, and then, if a burner, I can go over with the piece. But that's not how the streets work, right, right, you know, if you go over somebody like you have to think about the thought that goes in someone's head like, oh, this dude, yeah, oh my better, or whatever the case is right, right, anyone that's ever went over me has suffered defeat. And because and this is not my ego talking, this is truth, man anyone will tell you, anyone that's went over me proves there's been tons of people that came after me and failed miserably. Right.
Speaker 2:And it's not that I inflicted it. I've never inflicted nothing. It's always somebody went over me or went in my throw-up or something. Right. Then I'll go back and fix it. Then they would do it again. So I was just like all right, this means war, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then I just put my flag in the ground and just go over whoever is with them and whoever's a part of them. So it doesn't even matter about the person firing the shots, because I know deep down, if they see me together, they're probably all going to whoop my ass. Like oh, let's not be naive.
Speaker 2:That's why everyone has to get it. It's a form of it's like I don't know. I don't know why people have always were like so fond of going over me. And I don't know if it's because I don't actually know how big I am Right, and maybe somebody can see that and maybe want to say let me get my five seconds of fame and let me go over this guy. You know, and I never knew what it was Like. I sat there and thought about it, but I'm not the type of person to ask that person why they did it right yeah right, you know, I'm not gonna hit no one up, it's just I'm gonna leave it in the streets, yeah boom and that's.
Speaker 2:That's how things kind of go with the. That's how problems start, because they believe in that rule. Yeah, you know that. Oh, I went over his tag. It was a throw up or a throw up over a burner burner than a penis sleep. Yeah, that stuff doesn't hold weight out here. Wow, it's like a silent Warfare.
Speaker 3:That's crazy literally.
Speaker 1:So for for you guys, for you guys, crew TKO, how many members are you guys, if that's all right?
Speaker 2:damn how many members are you guys. If that's okay, damn, damn. Worldwide LA, new York, canada, mexico.
Speaker 1:Oh, so you have to definitely like people will see your pieces yeah. Come on now. It's not just like oh, just something locally. No, this is nationwide. You know what's?
Speaker 3:crazy is. I'm pretty sure I've seen one of your pieces On the 99,. Before you get to the the shaw off-ramp, there's a whole fencing on the right hand side and it's usually nothing but hella tags across that fencing. You remember where the old quiznos used to be? Yeah, yeah, right there yeah I don't know if it was you, but I know I've seen that tag I know it's very familiar. Yeah, I feel like I've spelled in individual letters. Bro, that shit is crazy yeah, I never.
Speaker 1:I feel like we definitely had ran through anywhere part of town.
Speaker 2:Yeah, your artwork yes yeah, well, definitely I've been man, I've been across the world. I've been to hawaii, cancun, mexico. Yeah, I even got some upcoming places, like I'm gonna head to washington, japan. So I've been. I'm not just a local artist, like I've been to new york and you leave your mark around there too.
Speaker 4:Right, you have to right around there too, right you have to right, my god.
Speaker 2:I mean, try walking to new york by yourself, you know, and there's no fear. Yeah, I'm completely fearless, like I. I've always had it since a kid, like, uh, I've always felt like whatever happens gonna happen, you know, amen and um, it's not like I'm gonna let myself, but I'm not gonna inflict the problem. But hey, I'm going to let myself, but I'm not going to inflict a problem. But hey, I'm here to paint on that, like you know, please don't try to stop me. But other than that, like I feel like everyone has to go to the Mecca. It's LA and New York, and if you haven't been to those places as a writer, just in my opinion, you have to go visit those places. If you're anybody that wants to make a name for yourself, you have to go bomb those places. Those are the two biggest places of graph that's ever came out of anywhere. It's like the mecca of graph, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, what's a huge stigma in the graffiti world that people believe in, but it's not necessarily true.
Speaker 2:Probably all graphers are like bad people in a sense. Okay, you know kind of, we're just regular people, we're nothing at all. Yeah, yeah, you know, that's probably one of the biggest things, and I just think that maybe that we have lack of empathy or something that we're not empathetic or we just don't care about people's shit, right, which you should judge that based on the individual right, not the whole scene itself because graffitis.
Speaker 2:Can you imagine like if every grapher was just considered like a grapher, right, and it's like being a part of your tiger, like, oh, they're just all going through, right, exactly, and it's not that.
Speaker 3:Exactly, it's so diverse, it's way more into it when you actually like really dive in. Yeah, and that's even crazier because even the question he asked you earlier like the politics in it. There's politics in everything. There's politics in the car community, the music community, the music community. But to hear it in regards to the graffiti, it's like I always knew about game turfs tagging over each other in LA.
Speaker 1:That's huge, that's very common?
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely. But then realizing that not everybody who was associated in a game was tagging. Sometimes it's people who were originating their own style of art, that grew up around their family who did it, or maybe it was just them and they were inspired by it and they started doing it. And it's beautiful to see that it's a community of people accepting each other, and it's not just like a dog eat dog world where it's like oh no, I don't respect you, it's individual people or my gang versus the world. Type shit, like there is a community out there, there is a group of people that are willing to do this and they're, um, how do you say they're welcoming, they're not gonna be like, oh no, like get the fuck out of here when you're fucking with your art style. Type shit, like there's groups out there that are willing to be like, hey, we fuck with you, we'll help bring you in. It's like the.
Speaker 2:It's like with anything, everything has to have consequences yeah yeah, you know nothing. Nothing is gonna go like unscathed exactly, yeah there has to be a right and wrong, and it's like if you messed up or you did something, your homies are probably going to have to DP you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, beat your ass.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because that is. It's respectable, because you have to answer to somebody.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 2:You know, if not, then we're going to have a bunch of people doing J-Cat stuff and thinking that nothing's going to happen to them. Right. And things like that have to happen, right, you know, and it's for the sake of other people, not for the person inflicting it. It's because hey, you can't do that. It's not right, we don't abide by that.
Speaker 3:There are certain boundaries that are being set and do you think that's a widely known thing, that there is, let's say, repercussions for doing certain things? Like you said, it's a silent warfare, but sometimes those rules are made up by other people and let's just say that person doesn't know your rule. Like, do you think that there's like an overall rule known in the group or in the scene? Is it just strictly don't tag over nobody else's shit unless you want war?
Speaker 2:Yeah, pretty much, I mean, unless they're your enemy or someone that your group of people kind of a rival had fun for for years. And then, yeah, you're gonna go over people that you personally never had a conflict with, but the crew that you're in does, so sometimes that happens. But I mean overall it's like, well, everyone's trying to do the same thing and you've got to look at life in that way too. Like everybody that makes music are not on the same page.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2:You know people have enemies you create because to have those type of things is what makes you have drive. To have rivalry, right right. That's what makes you have drive, because imagine if you know, like everyone's cool supportive Right.
Speaker 3:There's no sense of competition.
Speaker 2:Because there's no people. You've got to understand human nature. They like controversy, they like to hear. That's why bad news will travel more than good news yes, all this company, this person or this like this is the law of human nature. Right, you know, this is how people operate. So, as far as tagging goes, like it's no different than anything else, right, it's just, we have our, we have our rules and everyone else has theirs. But, yeah, definitely don't go over no one's shit. Gotcha, gotcha, try the best you can.
Speaker 1:Since we're on that topic, I mean if it's appropriate for you to bring up what are some of the rules that you guys have that you guys enforce?
Speaker 2:Just like one. I would say just don't go over people's shit. That's pretty much the same thing, that's the major one. Yeah, you can't be doing like, obviously, stuff against like morals or like you know, doing pretty much like stuff that people wouldn't, right, you don't want to be doing anything of like pretty much like stuff that people wouldn't do, right, you know you don't want to be doing anything of like. You know, we don't want a bad rep, we don't want to see anyone doing anything. You know drugs is a big thing too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, if you're over-consuming at something and you're making yourself look bad and you're making everyone else look bad because you're holding those three letters under your name, so you know it's like, with anything you don't want your, if you're a boss, you don't want your workers smoking all day, and then it's like he's looking bad, yeah, and then it's like, hey, dude, you're making the business look bad, right, right. So it's like it's like the same thing in everything. You know, that's how I kind of see it. But you definitely can't let things consume you and, uh, you can't, just can't, look bad, you know, right, because you make everyone else look bad, right, you know, now is there.
Speaker 1:Now, is there ever like meetings that you guys have, like maybe like once a month you guys go somewhere to meet up or, like you were saying, like traveling, and you and your crew are like hey, let's go somewhere?
Speaker 2:I mean there is certain times for that, but, depending on what they're doing, if you're in LA, people have different groups. It's like groups inside of groups, not everybody in my crew. I'm going to paint with the people in Mexico are with their people, yeah, la with them, and then over here is, you know, wherever you have people at. Yeah, so it's kind of like a free-for-all, but there's people everywhere from my crew but there's people everywhere from my crew. So, like the crew that I'm in is like there's people everywhere, yeah, you know every different city, you know, and the president T-Dogs will end up, you know, putting in a good word like hey, you know, we got a member going out there, show him around.
Speaker 3:And that's kind of what it is. That's right. That's sick, bro, did you? Uh, I know you heard about the situation that had happened out there in new york where that big ass tower was getting tagged up and the police had came out there and they had the helicopter. People were actively tagging it in l in, la, la, sorry, not new york, la, yeah brother. How did you feel, seeing that? Like being in the scene watching that happen and actively tagging it day after day In LA, la, sorry, not New York, la, yeah Brother. How did you feel, seeing that? Like being in the scene watching that happen and seeing that on the news? Like how did you feel in the moment?
Speaker 2:The crazy thing is is that my, the president of the crew, which is Tumor. He was actually one of the first persons to scope that spot out and was like we should do something here. He ended up telling us to I don't know what ended up happening, but further along the line, everybody started hitting it Because it was abandoned right, yeah, but he said too though one time where he's like if you weren't a known artist or bomber, like that was your go-to to get fame.
Speaker 2:So for people that are known, they're kind of like, let them.
Speaker 1:Let them have their moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like they probably needed more. I don't know what their, you know what their idea of it is, but it was a moment, yeah. So if you hit it and you got on there like hell, yeah, dude's got up there, you know, but I don't think for real bombers, we're like looking forward to it, like I'm gonna go to la and I'm gonna hit this tower. Bro, there's so much, there's so much walls and so much stuff like that's why I always got into stuff that's endless, like graffiti, there's no end. Yeah, there's music, there's no end.
Speaker 2:Right, all these things that I got into, there's no end to it. There's music, there's no end. All these things that I got into, there's no end to it. There's like you can't. You can live 3-4 lives and not touch the surface. You know, like graffiti is one of those things where you just have to do it and do it and strategically, um, even if that, like, you're probably not going to ever, we're just scratching the surface, man, right, you know we're trying to scratch as much as we can. So, like for anybody out there writing like just do you, man, don't go over people. You know, don't be a dumbass, don't be a dick. You know, just remember the goal is to put your heart or your graft there and to go home at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:That's it, yeah so now I want to dive into some stories. See if you can say yes or no to um. Have there been times that you almost got caught?
Speaker 2:there's been a ton of times, I would say like a good handful. But these but these handful were like like really time for it. Really there was no exit. Wow, like I think it was I can't say the actual freeway, but it was one of the freeways and I'm hitting back-to-backs Like I think I hit like 33. Holy shit. So I hit like 33 back-to-backs and there's two ways in this way and there's a gate kind of closest on this side, so right or left. So all I see was like spotlights, light up, boom, the immediate.
Speaker 2:My first reaction is just I fell flat and laid on my back so they couldn't really see. Once I heard the chain jingling, like jiggling, yeah, I was like oh, they're coming in. So I was like damn. So I kind of like put the paint next to me in my bag, like I was up on the floor, yeah, put in my bag. And I was like all right, uh, shit, what do I do? And then, right, when I'm thinking of going the other way, more lights on this other side. So I'm like God damn. So I immediately thought I'm going to get my equipment kicked in, put my backpack on, I jump over the freeway, run across the fucking door, run across the divider fucking there's cars fucking honky, you know.
Speaker 2:Just I hop over the d and I go and there's like there's like a piece of the freeway where there's like wire, like metal wire, right. So I grabbed that wire as hard as I can and I just like kind of like fling myself up, so I end up getting over that and I see the cars moving Because I'm barely on the other side. On the freeway.
Speaker 1:So to them it's like Just down the street, just crossing the little way in between.
Speaker 2:So I move and there's this big ass brick wall. I think there's this big ass brick wall, I think there was like apartments behind it. So I'm like God damn, like there's no way I'm going to get up there, you know. So I end up running a little bit like I'm coming out of the freeway and then the wall gets shorter, so I end up just hopping that damn wall and I must have stayed in those apartments, dude, probably for like three hours Just sitting there like hoping to God that they didn't put it in the right place.
Speaker 2:And then the crazy part is is that I parked my fucking car literally right where they were, so I left. My paint took off, whatever, and I always wear gloves. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I end up walking out the apartments and it's like all the way around, and then I end up like end up walking and there's this car creeping. I was like what the hell? It's a white lady, she's in a Jeep and she's like have you seen my dog?
Speaker 1:And I'm like like 12 and what Are you serious.
Speaker 4:Come on, come on, I haven't seen nothing, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:So I end up going and thank God it's like a, like an area where there's a bunch of homeless people that do drugs back and forth. So I was like maybe they thought I was that. So I ended up like waiting, kind of like walking further, didn't see no cars. Half of my car got on and then I ended up circling back and trying to see who it was. You know, because I'm not a curious person, but I do want to know if it was like law enforcement or something, if it was like law enforcement or something. So I ended up like parking and then I parked kind of like back into this uh, not like a driveway, but it was like like an alleyway yeah, it's kind of the alleyway and back into there and I wanted to just phone, phone, phone.
Speaker 2:oh, they're like circling, yeah. So I was like I can't see nobody. All the windows are tinted. Every single car, all the windows are tinted. Yeah. So I'm like what the hell? Are these like under covers or something? Yeah, like, how the fuck did they know I was here? So I just bounced out, boom, fuck them. If they were, I don't care, I'm out of here, man. So I ended up dipping out. And I would say, another time was when I was on a rooftop with somebody.
Speaker 2:I won't say the person's name. But there was a helicopter flying over and I was like damn, like seems pretty close, yeah, and it's a high crime area. So I'm like I'm always used to hitting rooftops and freeway spots. So I'm like, oh, it just passed, yeah, certainly, ah, shit. And then I ended up seeing lights at the bottom. I was like what the fuck? So there's like a little if people know Fresno, they know the spot there's like a little window on top of that rooftop.
Speaker 2:I would say it's like an eight foot drop in for the first level. So we ended up going in there and hiding in there until all that shit was gone. But there was like mad cops down there. We talking about mad cops and how we knew if we ended up calling somebody and asking them like hey, we need you to come out here to see it. And they're like, bro, there's howling cars, just fucking stay in there, do not come out. And I was like, all right, just wait right there until they did so we can climb out. And, bro, it was a, we have to climb out of that eight-foot drop. Thank God we have the ladder. We have the ladder on the roof and then we have to use the ladder to get down, so imagine how much time.
Speaker 1:You guys had to set up and hopefully, there's not a cop waiting. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, there they are. Yeah, you know. So we got a lot clean man, you know. Yeah, jesus, we got a lot clean man, you know. And there was another time where I was hitting I think it was a rooftop in Reedley and I didn't get caught, necessarily, it had nothing to do with law enforcement but I actually fell, like about a story and a half, high Fuck, and I swear to God, like I was trying to do this, like climbing left to right, yeah, and I got like I don't know if it was that high, but it was pretty fucking high Right, and I ended up grabbing this piece of log and I kind of checked it before. Once I put my weight on it, this thing shot out of the like spread out the wall yeah and bro, it happened so fast.
Speaker 2:The next thing, I know like I'm like I'm trying to fall straight, but I guess when I went like, I kind of like turned, yeah. So my first reaction was like I don't want to hit my head, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I just kind of tuck in the ball where I fucked my whole side up. But I didn't break nothing, though. I fucked my whole side up, yeah, my ribs, everything was bruised, and it was so bad where my girl was like, yeah, just tell me the truth Did like someone kick your ass. It looks like you got fucking jumped. Don't fucking lie to me. And I was like, nah, I fucking fell, like I tried to reach in, boom, the fucking thing pulled out of the wall and I ended up tumbling, falling, dude Dang, and then, once I got up, bro, I couldn't breathe.
Speaker 1:And all air was out of your head.
Speaker 2:I was in the car the whole time.
Speaker 3:Would have thought you'd punctured a lung, bro. Holy shit, that's amazing how you got out of that, bro. A story and a half.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's fucking hard man.
Speaker 3:My little fragile ass would have broke some. I ain't going to lie to you, I'm big bone boy, that gravity's going to.
Speaker 3:That's insane, man. And especially, I mean I'm not going to self-incriminate myself. I was going to say something. I'll probably leave that for another private episode. To say something, I'll probably leave that for another private episode. But that adrenaline is something else. I know that feeling very well. That adrenaline is something else. And to be able to say, you escaped from something like that, in a situation where you're like, bro, I'm fucked, there's no way out of this, those are stories you tell your kids, your grandkids. I love that man. What's life worth living is the interesting stories. Yeah, literally Hell. Yeah. So, and I know you already left a message for anybody trying to get into that. What's the message that you would say to anyone that's losing faith in the graffiti scene?
Speaker 2:For me personally, I developed this type of ego to where it's like people can make fun of it, but it's like unstoppable, right, like to the point to where, like, I'm going to do it no matter what.
Speaker 2:I'm probably the only person right now in my city that is still doing graffiti, even with all this graffiti abatement, shit, them locking people up, them fighting people, putting them away. I'm the only person that was still out there and it's like, just don't be so naive, like, don't be so welcoming. Like that's why I said like having ego isn't bad for the right reasons, right, right. Like having ego towards someone like well, why does this person want to know me? Like, why do they want to go painting with me? Right, like, what am I going to get from it? Like, that's the time to use your ego. Be humble once you know that. You know so it's like a, it's like a double edged sword. So, depending on how you look at these, because I just think that it all has to do with the person- you can't put faith in somebody, you can't make them do anything.
Speaker 2:They have to want it. Exactly, you have to want it and you have to breathe it, live it. There's going to be times where you just don't want to do shit, right, right, and it's a love-hate situation, like everything else.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:You know it's not going to always be. I'm going to go painting. I'm going to do this, like you said. What good is anything without those stories, without that journey, without that mishap? Yeah, yeah. Fuck yeah.
Speaker 1:That's insane man. Yeah, and us getting to meet you. You're such a humbling person and you know we related to a lot with when it comes to like betrayal and and people just switching up and yeah, um, but in your guys's world, like how do you guys cope with it? How do you guys deal with it?
Speaker 2:well how I dealt with it was uh, me personally, it's just killing with success. That's the only thing that's going to make you different from them. And I'm not the type of person to turn into the person that caused it. I'm better than that. I got class. If I see them, it's probably a different story. Yeah, I'm not going to just walk past them, but something's going to happen, but in that it's like I don't even think about those people. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't even care about them. I don't care what they're doing Like, just kill them with success. Kill them with being the best rider, the best. Whatever you're doing, like try and elevate and you'll watch all your enemies disappear. Oh yeah, hell yeah, that's a great piece of advice.
Speaker 3:Man, I like that, I really do that's such a crazy like perspective to have. I hear a lot of rappers that talk about that too not in word for word, but they say it's like.
Speaker 1:Sometimes you got to be the bigger person, yeah.
Speaker 3:And let it go. But then, like when you run into those people from years ago that you know either try to hinder your vision or try to stop you from, you know, reaching those goals or your passion, and you realize how small they were, yeah, and how big you've become. It's like damn, see where that hating shit got you, you know what I'm saying, like it's crazy.
Speaker 1:And then you think about it too, because it's just like at that moment that shit happens, you're just like you want to clap back, you want to get revenge, you want to go eye for an eye, right. But it's more rewarding when you become the better, like the bigger person, right, because you never know. I mean, god's watching. Yeah, you'll be blessed, yeah it's true, it's like.
Speaker 2:It's like the stuff that I've seen was like if everyone goes eye for eye, then everybody leaves blind yes, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So like it's more for me, it's more better because, like, you get to know something that you didn't know. It's like a lesson, it's like a superpower, because I got to see in someone's brain that no one ever gets to see. Yeah, you know, and these are people that are concealing it. This isn't like an open conversation. Like, hey, you know what I'm going to play you, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, and these are people that are concealing it. This isn't like an open conversation. Like, hey, you know what I'm going to play you, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. No, they come as friends, they come as your best friend, they come as whatever it is, and it's just odd that we can't detect it until it happens. It's because we put up these barriers Like safety guards.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I had friends, honestly, the truth that I've done a lot of things with, and they have my back in the midst of chaos. A whole bunch of stuff fed me, did all this, but that didn't mean anything the day of the betrayal, it's just it meant to me. It was like, oh, this dude will never tell on me, ends up doing it and I'm like what you would never tell. Yeah, we did all this street stuff and then you switch up and you switched over this or like a girl or something like this is insane man, it really is, that's crazy that you say that.
Speaker 1:You know I relate we know the feeling and it's just like you know what people can throw dirt on your name all they want, but they're gonna, but they're going to see what they've been fertilizing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's annoying, but I've always gone to the saying of I want to see you eat, it's just not on my table. It's not on my table. Like I got no hatred towards, like I hate what you did, I hate the fact of how things work, because I took care of you, I, I paid for your meals, I made sure that you were fed, I made sure that we're good, you took advantage of my kindness and then that's that's how I get treated, that's how I get done dirty, okay, and it's uh, it's crazy that the world is like that and we were talking about that briefly before we started. But this is, these are things that are supposed to happen. So that way you learn and you can see the reality of like, hey, you know what? Maybe the next person that I meet or the next person you're going to be on guard, you're going to pay attention to the signs before or maybe solitude is what's meant for you Sometimes you don't need a circle.
Speaker 3:Sometimes all you need is your inner family or yourself. You know there is oftentimes where I have big groups of people. Like growing up in school I had several circles but I always ended up feeling alone. I was like I don't think I know homies like that. Why do I feel like that? But I know people. A lot of it was because I wasn't supposed to be putting my trust in people because I was going to waste my time. In the end they would have either betrayed me or they weren't my niche right.
Speaker 3:So it's like if people aren't fitting you or you don't fit a specific group of people, more than likely it's because it's not meant for you. And I feel like growing up and maturing a little bit helps you recognize like that a little bit faster too. Because it's like damn, these ain't my kind of people. You can go on a party, right. You can go on a house party and walk in and immediately know what kind of people you might fuck with and the motherfuckers you're going to stay away from, because you've been around this rodeo a million times when you're younger. It's like damn, bro, I wish I had a group, I wish I had a gang of homies to do this with. But you learn eventually, and I think that's the beauty of life is sometimes the betrayal makes you a stronger person. Sometimes the betrayal was meant to happen to you so you could recognize your value, because sometimes you're valued more than what the people are around you. You know crazy to say it like that, man there's a lot of saints too.
Speaker 2:There's like one of the laws that I like the most is it says your friends are more likely to betray you because they're what's the word I'm looking for they're more entitled, and then if you befriend an enemy, he's more likely to be more than a friend to you because he has more to prove. So I did that with several people. There's people that I was going neck to neck with and the finding now is that people just have similar interests and they admired you or something and they didn't interests. And they admire you. Yeah, they didn't know how to tell you. Yeah, and for me, a hater is someone that's telling you what you're not doing, so listen to them, right? If a hater's like, oh, you ain't got this, you ain't got that, they're telling you all your weaknesses. Yeah, they're telling you everything you should be enhancing and get it, you know, at a certain level. So I never saw it that way.
Speaker 1:I never did either. Now that you bring that up, I'm gonna start seeing it though. Yeah, that's crazy. I like that.
Speaker 3:I like that analysis it's very easy to be dismissive over like people telling you like yeah, but you're not this, or like yeah, but you're not doing it like that, and it's like bro, maybe we should use that as like yeah, well, constructive criticism is definitely one thing. Yeah, but I've never had that perspective on it. That's crazy. I think that's another thing about ego too is sometimes the ego gets in the way and it's like why am I going to listen to you when you're not even in the same field of work as me? Right, but sometimes we don't fully know who that person is and maybe they're passionate about what we do, but they just don't have the guts or the resources to do it right. But they can recognize it the same way, like I didn't tell producer homies that I'm friends with, like hey, dog, like I'm not gonna lie to you, this sounds amazing. But like you should probably add this in there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and if they can't take the constructive criticism because they're like what you know, you don't even make beats like how, you gonna tell me, but me growing up in music and being around my family is nothing but producers my grandfather, my dad, my uncles, bro, like it's been around me, so I have a ear for music. I can hear that shit. So when I give advice to one of the homies, they'd be like uh, and then they end up putting it in. They're like damn bro, you were right. So many times it's happened, bro. Sometimes you never know who's really like giving you the tips and tricks, or even if they're hating, so to speak, like trying to talk shit on you. Sometimes it is the boost that you need. Sometimes you got to hear it.
Speaker 2:It's like what some business people say is the customer's always right. Yeah, so sometimes your audience could be, right? Yeah, in a sense, because it's like some people are looking from the bleachers and those people might see everything that's going wrong, like you know, and when you're in the game. It's kind of like.
Speaker 3:Tunnel vision.
Speaker 2:Yeah sometimes we have you know, even with rappers like we have that, like, oh, you fools don't even pay. Like you know shit about it, but they're like, oh, like they don't care to elaborate more because they've seen the ego Right, the blockage. So, like I was always told that the enemy of knowledge is knowledge thinking. You know too much.
Speaker 1:Damn Wow.
Speaker 2:It's not about not knowing or being ignorant. No, the enemy of knowledge is knowledge. Thinking you know too much, you know, damn, and everybody knows Like I can know something that somebody else don't know. But in a different field they can know more than me, you know. But that's why I always said I never judge people based off of like appearances or like anything, because the right situation might happen right when you're lost and that person's like I know what's going on right and it kind of surprises you. Yeah, how did this person know? Yeah, you know it's. It's. There's so much stuff, man like, especially when, like reading will open you up so much. Anybody that really knows me and there's less than a handful that really know who I am all I do is read.
Speaker 1:Right Bro that is a rare thing, and that is a great talent. Yeah, that is a great talent. All I do is read.
Speaker 3:Yes, bro, what's crazy is Kesey always says that Kesey's always just like y'all need to read and a lot of people Don't take it to heart, cause I mean, we live a fast life. A lot of people out here In Fresno we live a really fast life. You work, you try and do something You're happy about, like you try to do your passions In the middle of it. Some of us got family, some of us Got hobbies that just take a lot of bit of time. But like, if you get the chance to open up a book yeah, whether it's the bible, the quran, if it's a junie b jones book, bro, like read it, read something, because at the end of the day, reading is very, very essential. Like I feel like reading is such a lost art form and uh, no, if I, 1000 is like I need to have.
Speaker 1:I need to have pictures in my books like I have such like bad adhd. I could sit there, and then I'm dyslexic too, so it just makes it worse.
Speaker 3:So, like that's what I was saying earlier, I'll get discouraged real quick after like one page that's what I was saying I'm stuck in the intro.
Speaker 3:I'm sitting there reading the page. I'm like bro, I've read this same line about six times. I still haven't comprehended it. But once you're able to get over that, like books have so much knowledge, perspectives, you never would have thought of words you didn't know about and then learned it and now it's in your vocabulary. It's essential, I feel like, to humankind to master a language and continue to learn with it. I mean to think about the english language. Right, people who are born here, who learn the english language is their first language, still don't know all the words. There's still words. They're trying to figure out the correct grammar of things, how to spell things, conjunctions, all that I'm guilty as fuck, listen I am too, bro, and I think, like, if you know that, why wouldn't you want to learn more?
Speaker 3:why wouldn't you want to sound professional or want to sound uh proper with your english?
Speaker 1:I mean, it's your natural, given right to speak, you know I'm taking this as a sign, because you're like the fourth person that's told me like you need to get into reading like, uh and, and what's a book that you recommend?
Speaker 2:I would say I read more like napoleon hill um the power of the subconscious mind, okay, um, youtube is a good book. Uh, think and grow rich.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a very great book okay so the thing about those books that I can say, to break it down to the best of my knowledge, is like I heard one thing that says the cave that you fear the most holds the most valuable possessions. Wow, so the thing that you fear the most is holding you back from being your better self. Yeah, and that's with anything, though Right, you know, because I struggle with a lot of stuff still. So it's like I'm barely scratching the surface, but it's good to know, because I've actually showed quite a bit of people certain things and some people embraced it, some people laughed and if you knew who I was before, you would definitely be like damn, that is not the same guy. Yeah, you know, like this dude is completely someone else. Like you know, we can see it, but for those people it's like I said before. It's like you can't put belief in nobody. You can't put nothing into nobody. People only change if they're inspired enough, if they're to the point of rock bottom, or it's just that they got a good friend. That's like come on, bro, you can keep doing it. That's the only way people are going to change. You know, there is no other answer. I mean, unfortunately, I never had someone to teach me. I had to teach myself. You know, and I still remember to this day what actually changed me.
Speaker 2:At this time I was smoking a bunch of weed in my car, my 4Runner and I came across this video. It's called Do you Know Yourself? By Bob Proctor. Okay, and I ended up seeing this whole thing. This is before the ego, before the confidence, before everything. And once I seen that 30-minute video, it's changed my whole life and perspective.
Speaker 2:Wow, because I was completely like, didn't know nothing, didn't care to know, didn't know. I was lost. That's the worst type of people. And for me to see that video, it just transpired like man, I can do whatever I want. So that's what kind of like amped up the whole graph scene and different stuff and kind of put that extra battery pack in my back. It just made me look at everything as a test of your own faith. Yeah, it bumped up a gear in you. Are you going to do it or are you going to let your fear get the best of you? You know, that's the only thing I've always thought of was like are you gonna let your fear consume you and never know what it took to get that, or are you actually gonna do it and say I didn't make it right and keep trying and going like I'm relentless dude, like I do not get. There's one dude I do not give up. There's one thing about me I do not give up.
Speaker 2:And I can feel that I can feel that I will not stop, dude.
Speaker 1:I'm a strong believer, with people, that you can sense their energy, you can sense their drive and the mindset I relate to that.
Speaker 1:I like that Because I operate in the way of like you have to find your purpose, whatever you want to set forth, whatever you want to do, and my purpose in life and I've always said it from the beginning is that I'm going to be an impact in this world, no matter how big, no matter how small. Yeah, until this day, I can happily say that it's been working and that's where you find your purpose. And if been working, yes, and, and that's where you find your purpose. And if you don't have your purpose, you don't have your reason why you got to get up, why you got to do, why. You have to find your why, right. And once you find your why, that mindset switches yes, why I do this? Who am I doing it for? What am I doing it for? Then it's just like where you're operating a whole different level and you find yourself and and I like that, you share that because it's like, again, like great minds think alike. I feel, I feel the energy, I feel that vibe from you.
Speaker 3:And it's crazy because, back to what you were saying to Denzel Washington, to the graduation speech. I don't remember exactly where it was at or who was for, but it was a video actually posted on Instagram a while back and it was at or who it was for. There was a video I actually posted on Instagram a while back and it was basically going over like imagine being on your deathbed surrounded by all the versions of you that you doubted or that you didn't become that you could have become, that you could have been, yeah, and they're all looking at you like, bro, this could have been you, but you decided not to take the chance, and so now you must lay here on your deathbed full of regret, knowing that this is the opportunity you could have taken, but instead this is where you're at, and I think that's a huge drive. I think it's a huge driving force for me personally, because, me personally, I don't force my hand into certain situations.
Speaker 3:If an opportunity pops up, I take it Right, because that doubt in my mind that's like no, I probably shouldn't do it. I'm like no, I'm going to do it because this is an opportunity of a lifetime Every opportunity given to me is once in a lifetime, because I can't promise I was going to come back to me. Yeah, whether it's friendships, whether it's us doing interviews with somebody, whether it's a job opportunity I mean I know risk levels and obviously if it's worth my time or not, but I'm still going to at least assess it and be like eh, okay, let's see what it's about.
Speaker 3:I feel like that's the biggest issue is who told us that we have time? That too, yeah, bro man.
Speaker 2:That's always been a big thing of me, Like. That's why I'm so like if people really know me and there's something I want to do immediately, want to attack it, Right, I don't care. I failed a thousand times, yes, and I'm like thousand and one here we go. That's a part of this journey. Yeah, hell, yeah, yeah, because I don't know.
Speaker 1:I felt like in life I've been broken so much to where, like you can't break something that's already broken, you can only fix it. So, like for me, it's like it doesn't hurt anymore.
Speaker 2:Right, what is it going to like? It doesn't hurt anymore.
Speaker 3:Right, what is it gonna like? What's it costing me?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like it doesn't cost me my sanity or nothing. So, looking at certain things and I've actually seen people that I've shown certain things to and they literally lit up with confidence Because it's like bro who's telling you you can't do that. There's no one out here telling you nothing. No one in this life is to be bluntly honest. No one gives a fuck what you're doing.
Speaker 3:Honestly, bro, that is so real. To be bluntly honest, like, don't give a fuck what you're doing. Honestly, you really don't care. That is the. That is so real. No one really cares.
Speaker 2:The only thing that trips me out the most is that they would act like they care, and it bothers me more because it's like, instead of teaching someone, that's the best thing you can do. Like you, the best thing to do is make an impact, but also to be inspired to someone you know like I have nine brothers and sisters. I got five brothers, four sisters.
Speaker 3:It's a big family. A lot of.
Speaker 1:Christmas gifts.
Speaker 2:And we don't want those same little Green Army toys no more, right, yeah, bro. But yeah, it's always to build confidence in people I'm next to. Like, if I'm out there, I can't, I don't want to be next to someone that's scared, don't know what to say. I'm always making up plans. I know, besides the graph, I really don't have anything to talk about. More Okay, in a greater sense of doing something like for whatever, but I would always tell the person I'm with, like, hey, dude, let's make up a story. Like we're coming from your house, we just helped your dad paint a car, we stay such and such right here. So, like, coming up with the like, at least the type of fighting chance to get out of the situation.
Speaker 2:you know, and if we're up on the roof, I'm like, hey, dude, you look out. And I don't mean just look and then be on your phone. I mean I want to see you looking, staring, but don't take your eyes off. And then, yeah, it's your turn, and then kind of get in and get out, kind of military status.
Speaker 3:Yeah, operations, yeah, ninja type of stuff unseen.
Speaker 3:Yeah, kind of military status yeah operations, yeah, type of stuff unseen, yeah. Yeah, you know that's how I like to operate. Damn hell, yeah, great execution styles. Bro man, it's been a wild episode. You know this is my first time meeting you and even before we cut the episode on, we were in really deep conversation. It's insane, um, being able to meet somebody you've never met before and hold conversations like these, talking about you know the regrets in life and not taking those chances, and then speaking on something that you're super passionate about and then being able to connect with it, like I was telling you about me being behind that park bathroom with the fucking ink pen doing graffiti and shit you know it's.
Speaker 3:It's insane seeing other people being able to take something you're passionate about on a smaller scale and really just blow it into proportions that you could never imagine, and I feel like that. The graffiti style is definitely, um, something I want to see more of. I I miss seeing that type of shit everywhere. Obviously, the city and law enforcement don't like it, but there's obviously rules, and I want to see more of. I miss seeing that type of shit everywhere. Obviously, the city and law enforcement don't like it, but there's obviously rules and regulations. So we're going to leave it at that, but at the same time, man, it's been a pleasure having you on the episode. It's been a great time, great conversations, really humble guy dog, absolutely, you're probably one of the best guests we've had on here and forms of like intellectual talks and being able to, uh, really dive deep in what you are passionate about.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah like yeah, no, and I appreciate you for reaching out and and educating us and educating the people on what you do. And your and your crew shout out to tko um and, honestly, like I, I can't wait for you to show me more projects that you got going on. I love it. I've seen your page. I've been looking. You sent me some of your artwork and it's just like that's incredible man, keep doing what you're doing. This is what you're passionate about.
Speaker 3:Keep doing it, bro. I can't wait to see more Dinge. Every time I'm driving, I'll be looking around, bro, Just like where's it at.
Speaker 1:You're like, hey, I had an interview with him. Yeah, hell, yeah, Hell, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you, man, for coming on. If there's something that you want to say or any inspiring words, this whole episode is inspiring. Yeah, literally.
Speaker 2:But to say goodbye to the people that are listening. Is there something that you would want to say? I want to say for my crew shout out my crew. Tko Tumor, t-logues, tko Press. Shout out everybody. I'm very grateful for being a part of the crew and just keep on it, man. Is this really happening? I can't get too sure, but one day I'll be yours. Don't ever give up. That shouldn't even be a part of your thinking. All we know is go and that's just the TKO way. Hell yeah.
Speaker 1:Hell yeah, man. Well, go ahead and plug in your socials when they can find you on Instagram, Uh underscore D-E-N-G-e-o-n-e underscore, which is dense one, and that's on ig thank you, man. Thank you, I appreciate you for coming out here, man. It's been an incredible episode. Y'all go ahead and check them out on the socials. Much love, peace, peace, peace, peace.
Speaker 3:Dude.
