Broke Boyz From Fresno

Art, Hacking, And The Cost Of Tech

• Martin M • Season 3 • Episode 33

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We sit with Matt to trace a winding path from broke studio days to elite security consulting, unpacking the moral gray of tech, the pressure of monopolies, and the stubborn hope inside making music for yourself. The talk moves fast, stays honest, and ends with a clear compass: align time with what you want.

• recording local bands and closing the studio
• pivot to offensive security and timing the market
• winning conference challenges and consulting work
• tech as blessing and curse in daily life
• AI’s impact on music and security
• monopolies, inequality and political capture
• writing process, persistence and plain lyrics
• attention economy and social media trade offs
• culture, perspective and small levers of control
• advice on aligning time with goals

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Intro Music by Rockstar Turtle- Broke Boyz (999)
Christmas Intro Song by Nico

Hosts Meet Matt On The Patio

SPEAKER_01

Well, welcome back to another episode of Broken Boys.

SPEAKER_04

I'm Martin. I'm DJ. And today we got a special guest. Please introduce yourselves to everybody that's here.

SPEAKER_01

My name is Matt. That's okay. Matt's okay. Uh just Matt. Just Matt. Just Matt. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Well, thank you for allowing us to be here, and you have such a lovely view of the city. Right. Right? Pleasure. Thank you. Incredible uh scenery and I love it. You too. I was telling DJ, I was like, man, we're just hitting landmarks after landmarks after landmarks. Right. It's like, man, eventually we gotta do all Fulton.

SPEAKER_03

That's pretty good. Yes. We love being able to shoot videos in different locations that's like showcase for us now.

SPEAKER_01

We've got to find a Pacific Southwest patio interview. Wow. Yes. You guys need to meet Steve Skibby. Hey, let us know. Let us know. Let's do it.

From Recording Bands To The Red Bank Account

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely. Well, before we go ahead and continue, let's go ahead and let's roll the intro. So, Matt, please tell us a little bit more about your backstory.

SPEAKER_01

Uh so we'll skip the first twenty years. In about 2002, I moved back to Fresno. I was born here.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, okay.

Pivot To Offensive Security And Barracuda Days

SPEAKER_01

I have a big family here. Um so I left, like you have to do when your whole family lives somewhere. Right. But uh I left when I was about 19, came back when I was about 22, got married, had kids. Yeah, come on now. Yeah. Sorry, I got I got some friends. Oh, let him in. Yeah, yeah, it's in the door. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. No, you're good. So we're doing a show tonight, uh, which is a culmination of all the things that I'm gonna briefly touch on. Yeah. So move back here, um, started recording bands in a friend, Brad Basmasian's house out at Butler and like Hazelwood. Oh, okay. Um, in about 2002, and wound up opening a little studio and in the process recorded, so to launch the studio, did uh uh this double CD that was called the Appendix Sessions, which we're talking about trying to re-release, um, which was a compilation with two songs from 12 bands. Wow. So it was like all the local bands at the time, right? And then parlayed that into about five, six, seven years of recording bands as my job. Um and that was a lot of fun. It like hit the art parts, but my bank account was always red. Yeah. So I was just like, oh God, I gotta find a way to get a better quality of life. Like, I can't work a hundred hours a week. Like, if I worked at a McDonald's, I remember thinking if I'd worked that many hours at a McDonald's that I spent at my studio at the time, I would have made more than twice as much money. So it's like, all right, like I have kids, I can't. Right. Like it's one thing when you're single. Right. When you have kids, like everything is different. Yeah. Um, so completely left that. Uh went and learned how to break into computers. Um, and now uh I what I always tell people is I just turn passwords into art. Because I I take the revenue I can generate doing offensive security things, breaking into stuff, yeah. Um and subsidize an expensive hobby.

SPEAKER_03

So yeah. So how did you get into that type of work? Like what was the first turning point when you realized you could turn that into a job?

SPEAKER_01

Uh honestly, like it it was just in talking to so when I first started, I worked for a company called Barracuda Networks in support. Um and realized right away that the people who were calling to ask us questions didn't uh really uh think about the implications of what they did at work.

SPEAKER_03

Got it.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, and then realized that neither did the people building the software that we were selling, right? And nobody really did. Everybody just wanted uh wanted to make as much money for as least like the littlest investment possible. Right. So I thought because of whatever defective brain shit is going on in my head, I was like, huh, this feels this feels like an angle and leverage. So I figured out how to do the the basic security work. Um and nobody really knew how to do that stuff. So this is like 2015, 2016, 2017. Okay. Um, and realized that I could make a a very nice living with a lot of flexibility if I would just hang up the art bent for a little while while I you know onboarded the new things that I needed to learn how to do to be able to have a a reasonable income and like quality of life without having to work all day every day. Yeah, yeah.

Winning Cons, Consulting, And Timing The Market

SPEAKER_03

You got that leverage you were seeking and you took it to the furthest extent.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it honestly, like in hindsight, that's what it looks like. It was a lot more like, I don't know, maybe this. Um, and then met a couple of people who are still very good friends of mine today, and we started participating um in a lot of the offensive uh like games that they have at conferences. Right. And and it got to the point where we could win a lot of them. Um and we got like to the point we won enough that we got banned from competing and had to like join the people putting on the contests.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And so at that point, we just flipped the switch and became uh we left Barracuda and went on to do consulting and breaking into like Fortune 500 stuff and helping people secure things behind the scenes. Right. Um, and like I lucked out, like the timing on it was was perfect. Like now it's really hard to break into that kind of space. Right. But in 2017, there was one person doing it for the demand of 10 people. Wow. So it was easy to just upgrade. Um, and that was like a doubling income moment. So do you don't get to do that very much?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Do you feel like in that field of work? It's a blessing and a curse because of the fact that, like, yeah, you've been able to breach the security system and they resolved it.

Blessing And Curse Of Computers

SPEAKER_01

So these are separate things. Okay. Okay. It's a blessing to be in the work. Yes. Computers are the curse. Yeah. Oh we shouldn't use computers. Okay. You can see, like, when when the solution to computer problems is did you try turning it off and on again? We don't understand, like, we don't understand the system well enough to be using them. Right, right. And everybody I know who does this, if they get past the quality of life it provides, all of us would absolutely acknowledge that like we should not be using computers for important things. Right. Like it just should not be like spots. Uh-huh. Well, dude, I mean, I don't know. Like, there's a compelling case to be made that a guy like me having the quality of life that I have is another proof that we should not be using computers. Like, I don't build anything with computers, I just break stuff. And that generates a quality of life that's better than making art. Right? That's a crazy way to look at it. So I do art as a hobby. Right. Uh, because of the the nice things that I get from exploiting computers. Right, right. Like, I I mean, I don't want it to stop, but we shouldn't do it. Right. Right, right. Like we don't, we don't understand. And AI is like next level. That's a whole nother that's a whole nother interview. Right. Uh but it's funny, like the the two things I chose, my my hobby and my and my income, my job, both are like the early targets of AI. Okay, yeah, yeah. And that just sucks.

SPEAKER_03

That's just a fact. But you're still here. And it's still active in it.

AI’s Impact On Art And Security

SPEAKER_01

I mean, a lot of people, well, I mean, uh a lot of people are okay with AI music, and a lot of people are okay with AI security. Uh, but the truth is like humans like we don't have we don't have a a Leonard Cohen, uh, we don't have like a Maynard Keys, we don't have uh a Kendrick, like those that's not where AI like AI doesn't give a shit about that. AI is like, what can we make that's almost human for free? Right. And that just feeds people who already have everything, yeah. Right? Like technology uh there's there's little quality of life things that technology benefits us that that we benefit from technology, but not as much as rich people. Like technology is a is a tool to transfer everything from everyone to a few people. And every every time it happens, every time it gets more integrated into real life, it it's demonstrated again and again. Right.

SPEAKER_03

Like it is such a crazy concept thinking about how technology has obviously blessings and curses, like having a career, being able to try and like make things more secure, being able to break it out. It's complicated, right? It's very complicated.

SPEAKER_01

But look at it from an outside standpoint, it's like wow, like maybe we shouldn't have continued to try and look into technology to make it better because it's making us lazier in a sense, but it's also taking away um when companies' stock stock price is more valuable to them than the revenue that they get from making a product or providing a service, then the only way to save money is to reduce the cost of providing things. And you have to always grow your revenue. You want your stock price to go up. Right. It doesn't matter how much revenue you have, it matters how much growth in revenue you have from last quarter. Right. So we're all screwed because at a point when monopolies have like you look at the companies that drive the market today, right? And it's what, like NVIDIA, right? Like there's a handful of these Apple, Google, like like the seven, whatever that you hear about all the time.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um they're monopolies. Yes. And they don't have any more market share to pick up. Like every like Google it is a verb. Right. It's not even a noun anymore, right? So they don't, they already have all the market share. So the only way they can make more money is by reducing costs. So we're gonna constantly get pigeonholed by using computers to replace people because corporate executives care more about shareholders than their employees or their customers. Wow. Because that's where they get the revenue.

SPEAKER_03

So wow. This is this is such a crazy mind-opening like conversation.

SPEAKER_04

A lot of education, right?

SPEAKER_03

Because I've never been able to speak with someone.

Tech, Monopolies, And Shareholder Logic

SPEAKER_01

Well, I'm also like very cynical and a little paranoid, and I hate all this shit. It's okay though. Like it it pays me. Yeah, like I I can do the things that I can have the life that I have, right? Because I know a little bit about this stuff and got in early enough. Right. Um so you know, I don't want it to go away, right? But but I it's very conflicted. Yeah. Like there's no it's all very gray. Right, right. Like there's there's no clear moral high ground winners, losers. Right. Like almost everybody is a loser uh in the in the game of it. Like I can tell you, I make about 25% of what the company I work for charges for my services. Wow. So which is still a good living. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's nothing like they still make more money than us. Yeah. And and by like orders of magnitude. Right. Like you look at CEOs versus high paid employees, right? It's like 10x. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So it's a crazy world we live in. And I wanted to ask you something in terms of that, what was your original plan? Like, I want to know what your original idea of what your career was gonna be.

SPEAKER_01

Oh fuck, man. Uh, I wanted to be a professional golfer. Yeah, so I was a I was a good golfer in high school. I played in college a little bit. Yeah. Um I was never good enough. Like, I was kind of blessed. I have a lot of friends who are a little bit better than me. Okay. And they were good enough to like struggle at it for years playing like mini tours and stuff like that. Yeah. I was never that good. So I just was like, okay, I gotta get a job. Um, and wound up like temping for a company that was a dot-com in like '98. Then they hired me on full time to work in operations for them because I was the only one who knew how to bat uh like batch process credit cards. Right. There was no plan. There's no plan. There was no plan back. Like there was a little bit of a plan when I close my studio in 09. But really, the context of like that whole plan soup to nuts was I need to find a way to get more money for my time so that I can have time to do things I like to do with the money that I get in the right, right, right. Um, and just fell into security work. Wow.

SPEAKER_03

Like it wasn't it wasn't something you it just came for.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. At no point was I like, oh, I'm gonna do this until I was already so close to doing it that it was obvious. Yeah, yeah. It was just like sort of fumbling forward. Right. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_04

So when was it that you finally felt like you were so passionate on music or creating music, writing music?

SPEAKER_01

Oh man, I felt like that since I was a little kid. Yeah. Like singing in church.

SPEAKER_03

What was your first instrument you wanted to play?

Quality Of Life, Inequality, And Cynicism

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that's funny. So I bought uh this this is why I wound up recording, I think, too. So I bought my acoustic guitar and a Task Cam four-track cassette recorder on the same day.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

And so I always approached music from a recording point. Really? Right? So I didn't, I was never like, oh, I'm gonna write a song. Right. I was like, I'm gonna record a song. Wow. So I would just start playing guitar parts until I had enough chords together that it was like repetitive. Oh, there's a verse and a chorus and a verse and a chorus. All right. And then I was terrible at writing words. I still am terrible at writing words. Um, but it was easy because I could just make another song because I had this little magic box that was just like memory of recording. Right. Right. Um, so I yeah, most people that I know, so I record a lot of not as many people as I used to, but I recorded a lot of a lot of records. Um and the only difference in me and the people who I record is they're better musicians because they don't record all the time, right? Like they need to actually like learn how to play stuff. Whereas I'm just like, ah, if I play this for 90 seconds, I can comp it together and this will be a song. Right. Wow. Yeah. That's incredibly challenging. No, no, no, no, no. No. Unlimited repeat attempts to get a keepable thing. Okay, okay. It's not that I'm so good, it's that I'm patient and I have and I have an understanding of how to just keep trying until it's right.

SPEAKER_03

Right, right. More like persistence. Persistence. Okay, there it is. Yeah. Wow, that's still a really cool thing to have. I think uh a lot of people they get very frustrated with themselves in that same learning process. Oh, me too. And they give up. I mean, how many times has it? I give up a lot.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, but I just keep trying again.

SPEAKER_03

Right, right. Was there ever a time where you felt like music wasn't for you?

SPEAKER_01

No.

SPEAKER_03

That is determination. That is pure determination. That is pure passion.

SPEAKER_01

Ah, it's not though. Like that makes it sound like it's effort. Like if it if I ever felt like it wasn't for me, it would take more effort to keep doing it. Really? Right? Like when I make something that I like, I don't I don't care about anybody else. Like I love it. And it's like an accomplishment. Right. Um and and I I really try to make things for me. Right. And if other people like them, right, like that's awesome. Right. But once you try to start making things for other people, like you don't know what you're making. Right. You like completely lose it. You lose yourself. And even if you make something that's good, you're not gonna be able to do it again. Right, right. Right. And the ability to like keep making good things. Right. The only way that works, I think, is if you're doing it. I guess it doesn't have to be for yourself, but you have to pick somebody that you're making it for. I know people who make things for their partner or their spouse or their mom or whatever it is, right? But you gotta have like a a person in mind when you're making stuff for it to be coherent, I think.

No Plan Career: Golf Dreams To Security

SPEAKER_03

I think it's insane that you're able to sit down with yourself and and and really just build a song from from nothing.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, dude, it's not like that though.

SPEAKER_03

Like so you get a sample or you get something you've heard of before and you try and tweak it, or no, no.

SPEAKER_01

I just never think about I'm trying to make something.

SPEAKER_03

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01

I I mean I just like the process of noodling around on instruments. Okay. Um yeah, God, that's hard to explain. So I never know what I'm gonna make when I start making something. Wow. Um, sometimes I'll start with like a keyboard that has a and a drum machine. Sometimes I'll record just like drums to a click track as a backing beat and play to that. Right. Some of my favorite things, uh, I wrote I wrote playing bass first, which doesn't make any sense. It's like a rhythm instrument that is melody. It doesn't like nobody starts with bass. Um, I'm learning to play piano. That's one of my favorite things to write with. Okay. Uh, but it's never like like I frequently don't even start with an idea. Wow. I like turn on the microphones, get things set up with my drums and a guitar and my piano mic'd, and press record, and then run with it. Right. I think that is beautiful. This is different. That is beautiful because it's the only way I know. Yeah. So like become because again, like it's all I've ever done. Right. It's a weird way to approach it, but it's what I've been doing for 20 years. So it's what I it's what I know.

SPEAKER_03

Was there anyone who inspired you to making music?

Recording As Creation: Process Over Ideas

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Uh the band Granddaddy and Jason Lytle. Um gosh, radio. Head is a huge influence. Uh Modest Mouse is a huge influence. John Vanderslice, who is uh uh equally talented recording and and recordist. So he has a studio called Tiny Telephone in the Bay Area that's super famous. Um, I I got to go up and mix a record with one of his engineers at that studio for a band way back in the day when I had a record label called Grey Tank, and I went up and mixed a Bell and the Dragon record. You guys are not old enough to remember that. Yeah, yeah, no, that's fair. Um, but we got to go up and mix with his engineer at his studio and like the the the record before us was the mountain goats, who's one of my favorite bands. Um and it's just inspiring to like because when you talk to people like that, you realize like, dude, you're just like me. Right. Like you're just you're just like me. Just like you you had your shit together when the opportunity presented itself before I realized that a way to have my shit together for an opportunity. Right. Like, um, but yeah, those those those I wouldn't be making another sparkle horse. It's like a weird like late 90s, early 2000s indie rock like gothic folk music. I don't know. Okay. Um yeah, without without those bands, like I wouldn't I wouldn't have ever considered this because those guys were all sort of like me. They were just like, yeah, let's get a tape machine and get down in the garage and like record a bunch of stuff and see if there's anything good. Wow. Yeah, so those those guys are all like huge hugely influential. And then I have a bunch of like Fresno people um who like I grew up recording when I didn't know how to like I learned to play drums because one of one of the big bands in town I was working with and their drummer quit, and the guy who sang in that band was like, Do you wanna play drums? And so I wound up playing in this band Rotomacher that like turned into kind of a big thing for a little while in the early 2000s. Um But yeah, like I just try to say yes to stuff when I can. Yeah, and like that's that's how it how it parlayed into all this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

If an opportunity arises, take it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, think about make sure it's an opportunity. Yeah, yeah. And it's not just someone trying to get you to exploit your time, exactly. Yeah, but if it's a real opportunity and you and you can make it happen and you want to, you should. Right. Like that, that's how you get to do what you want instead of doing what you have to all the time.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, very well said, man. Wow. I've learned more in the past. I don't know how long you guys make me feel so old. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just more or less, I'm more or less upset I wasn't born earlier to be able to witness the changes. How old are you guys? I'm 25. He's 26.

SPEAKER_01

I'm 47. So we'll check back in 20 years. I bet you guys, I bet you guys have hella stories at that point. Oh, absolutely.

Influences, DIY Ethos, And Saying Yes

SPEAKER_03

With the way life's been going, absolutely. I I just mean in the sense of like So, okay, so let me flip this up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

If I was your age right now, right, like I'm my age, my life's pretty good, and I'm like, everything seems super broken.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. Right.

SPEAKER_01

What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_03

It's accurate. It's pretty accurate. I mean, you're born and raised in an age where technology is advancing faster than you can keep up with, and information is spread out in so many different directions you can't keep up with it. Yeah. And so, in terms of like being raised in a society, we have so many different systemic pressures you deal with, so many different societal differences. And obviously, like every generation goes through a different struggle. I think our struggle is being able to keep our heads on straight and on one specific path, or or being able to hone in on something that we really like because there's so many outside voices saying, Oh, but you should do this, or maybe you should look into this. There's no real sense of direction in terms of I feel like uh our generation.

SPEAKER_01

So what generation what generation are you? Would you are you guys fit in?

SPEAKER_04

Would we be Gen X? I don't even know. No, it's like Z. We're not Gen Z. We're not Gen Z.

SPEAKER_01

I don't think we are. Millennials then? Huh? Or later than that? I think we're I think Gen Z.

SPEAKER_04

We're between we're between millennials and Gen.

SPEAKER_01

Gen Z. Yeah. Okay. Something in between that. So I'm super late Gen X. Okay. So here's another me being lucky. Right. I I literally am one uh like my whole job is knowing how computers work now.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right? Like better, better than the people trying to defend computers from me. Right. I got uh my first computer when I was 20 years old. Like there were no computers. And and even when I was 20, like I mean I use my computer at work a little bit. Yes. So I I got to have 20 years of life before technology broke society. Yes. And then I got the next 20 years of life while technology was breaking society. Yes. And now I'm seven years into is this the end? It's not the end of everything, right? But is this the end of the world?

SPEAKER_03

Because the quality of life, it's drastically different, right?

SPEAKER_01

Oh dude. I don't I I have a good job, I'm I I earn a good salary. I don't it doesn't feel like it. It doesn't like it doesn't feel like it. It doesn't feel like it. What do you think is missing? Uh I feel like a very small number of people have most of the stuff.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. I see.

Generations, Broken Systems, And Money Power

SPEAKER_01

And they use that power to get more stuff. And they and they own the politicians because the politicians need money to run. So their agenda is always in mind from everybody who's in power and they get what they want most of the time. Like, give me a billion dollars, watch how fast I turned it into 50.

SPEAKER_03

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01

Like, who do we need a billion dollars? Like, do we need fucking trillionaires? Yeah. Like, we don't need this.

SPEAKER_03

Right. So I don't know. What do you think could fix it?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I think it's uh I'm cynical, but I guess I think it's a lost cause. You guys come over here. Like the things to fix it. Like the the people who have everything. Did they lock us out? We got locked out on the patio. Oh no, no, no. This is exactly what happens in society. On my patio, I got locked out. It's gotta be the man. No, but the the only thing that fixes it is like those people aren't gonna give up their lifestyle. Yeah. So, I mean, read read into that answer whatever you want, but they're they're not gonna give it up.

SPEAKER_03

Right. That's the best answer we could have gotten. I'm not gonna lie to you. And it's crazy because I've thought that over and over again. I being born and raised in the early 2000s, and then again, seeing technology blow up as fast as it did, and hearing like my older brother and sister, my mother and my father talking about how life was before it, it's like, well, geez, man, like I wish I was born during that time, and you think about the quality of the city.

SPEAKER_01

Dude, in the 90s, 100 million dollars was a shit ton of money. Yeah, now a hundred million dollars doesn't even get you on a list. No.

SPEAKER_03

And it's crazy enough that people with that amount of money still aren't happy. I mean, there's a lot of people that have tons of money like that.

SPEAKER_01

I bet they're pretty happy. I mean, they may not happy, they might not realize how happy they are. Like, you could make yourself miserable at any situation, but my guess is their life is pretty chill.

SPEAKER_03

I think that there's things that they wish they could accomplish that they still can't, though.

SPEAKER_01

I hope I hope so. I hope they feel terrible and fail all the time.

SPEAKER_03

It's just crazy hearing your perspective because, like I said, growing up, I've also had that same like cynical mindset of like it's not gonna get any better.

Politics As Legal Gangs And Media

SPEAKER_01

I I try to be optimistic and it's easy in art. Yes. Land? Yes. It's hard to be optimistic and not feel dumb when you look at the the obvious, yeah. How like you hear this stuff about like the K-shaped economy and all this nonsense. Uh-oh, it's like dude, I just saw a st a stat and I'm quoting the internet, so don't believe me. But billionaires increased uh how much money they have like by 50% in two years. So like billionaires are closer to trillionaires than the rest of us are to even like having health care and retiring. Like, it just seems like you could say, like, dude, if you have a billion dollars, you can't have any more money. Or just everything after your first billion goes back to like the country you live in. Right, right. Like, right. Like, whatever, like you make a you make a reasonable income and have a nice house, you're paying property tax, that's what rent was 10 years ago. Right. Like, unless you're a billionaire and you have a bunch of tax shelters and everything's like floated and sideways and nonsense, and you don't pay any real taxes. Right. It's just stupid. Like you you can't have a world where the top five percent of income earners on on the planet have 50% of everything. Right. And the only there I don't know how you get it back to normal.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because like if I had a billion dollars and you wanted to start taking my money, like you you would have an army to go through. And that's what they have, right? They just do it through politics so it doesn't seem like a real army, but then all of a sudden we have National Guard and like the Marines deployed in Los Angeles, and we're like the fuck is going on? Like, those are my Marines, right? Why are they? I feel like we're on the same side, like that's the real thing. Like in politics, people excuse the guys who they agree with as good people, right? All the politicians are dirtbags, all of them do everything for money and to stay in power. Like, there aren't good politicians. Your guys are not any better than their guys, they all hate us, and and everybody who's not a politician or a billionaire has so much more in common than they realize with like anybody you can see from here, uh-huh, you could go talk to them and you'd be like, Man, your life is like mine. You're worried about the same things I'm worried about. Right. As soon as you start talking to even like state representatives, they can't even relate to what your life is like.

SPEAKER_03

And it shows in certain like news broadcastings, or sometimes when general reports are. Oh, dude, it shows everywhere. Yeah. It's just it's kind of sad seeing that. Now, I wanted to ask you something. Have you ever seen the show Peaky Blinders?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, my ex really liked that show. I've watched it a little bit. Okay. Um, but I I don't I don't know enough to comment with any fluidity on it.

SPEAKER_03

So there's a part in it, and don't quote me, I think it's in part of season two. Um, later in the episodes, the main click in Peaky Blinders ends up getting into politics. So, and it goes into that.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, dude. And it goes into that. It's it's the perfect training. Like, be a gangster, follow right into politics. Right. It's the same thing, and it's just legal gangs. And the thing is, is that legal corruption, legal gangs, yeah, legal everything. Like, it doesn't matter as long as you win elections.

Antitrust, Third Parties, And Power Dilution

SPEAKER_03

And I think the main director of Peaky Blinders knew how to sneak that mindset in, that that that board game setup into the show. So people who are already aware of it in the current society could relate and be like, whoa, so is that what it's really like? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it shuts It's like covert revolution. Yes.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01

And it really kind that doesn't get immediately trounced right now. Yes. Noted.

SPEAKER_03

And it really opened my eyes. I think that's something that a lot of people should look into. I mean, Peaky Blinders, I love that show so much, man. Amazing show. But um, in terms of politics and and really understanding the background of it. You might think, oh, this politician's amazing, like he's good for us, he's he's for the people, X, Y, and Z. No, he's not.

SPEAKER_01

But look at the agendas that he follows after he's as soon as he gets elected, his primary goal is to get re-elected. To get re-elected, you need to avoid pissing off the people in power and have a lot of money. So you need to go along and shut up and raise money. That's not anybody who's our ally ever. That's somebody who's looking out for themselves and the people who provide their money and their power. So it immediately switches teams as soon as you get elected.

SPEAKER_03

Right. It's a crazy concept to think about. And this, in this, in this day and age, in this reality, uh, like I mean, even me asking that question on what do we feel like can fix it, I have no clue. I mean, I I know what can fix it, but it's not the answer a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01

You have to rein in monopolies, you have to rein in, like, we need to have like real antitrust things. Yes. Uh we need to dilute the power of the two-party political system. Like when Republicans would rather lose to Democrats than have a third party be viable. Right.

SPEAKER_03

That's when it's like, whoa.

SPEAKER_01

We need a third party. Yeah. Uh you you have to dilute the power that that they've collected. Yes. Because we don't we don't have a chance.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Like, do you have a hundred million dollars to give to a politician? Because they're not going to talk to you if you if you don't.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly, exactly. That is the reality of it.

Writing Better Lyrics And Wanting To Rap

SPEAKER_01

And you can have a you can have a I have a nice life. I have no more influence or power than you do, other than to make art. Right. And and say what I think in an artistic form and hope it resonates with people.

SPEAKER_03

Do you ever make music in terms of like subjects like that? Yep. All the time. I'm gonna have to hear some of that later on. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, yeah. Now, to kind of tune back into you as a person, what you do, your artwork. Is there anything you felt like you haven't done just yet that you want to accomplish?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I want to be famous and rich. There you go. There it is. I'm just waiting for it to happen.

SPEAKER_03

Is there an instrument you want to learn to play that you haven't yet?

SPEAKER_01

Uh I I'm passively mediocre at a lot of instruments. Uh, I would like to just get better at the ones I know. Okay. Um I'm I'm taking piano lessons and play piano a lot now, which is new to me. Right. Um I don't know how long it's gonna last, but right now I'm sort of focused on that. It's really fun to write on. Uh I'm trying to get better at writing. Okay. Um, like words. Yes. Because I'm I'm I'm kind of fun and clever in text messaging, or in like when I'm talking to a bunch of people, right? I have like things to say. But when I sit down to write words for a song, I'm like, this is a song about a song I wrote that's writing songs about a song, and this song is a song, and these are songs, and they are sad. You're just like, this is fucking stupid. Um so I I'm trying to get trying to find a bridge to write more um conversationally and write about like clear ideas and and not have it be all mixed up. I secretly want to be a rapper. Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Um like a storyteller rapper?

Attention Economy And Social Platforms

SPEAKER_01

Uh I don't know. I just want to be a rapper. Like, I want to be like an angry rapper. Okay. I'm I'm working on on harboring enough anger to do it. Okay, yeah. And I'm making progress. Uh shit keeps getting worse and worse. Eventually, eventually I'll be ready. Yeah. Um so yeah, I really like if there's a part of music that of the things that I make now that I want to get better at, it's it's writing words that hit without it, without it being like convoluted, just like straightforward lyrics, like uh like there's a lot of people who do it really well. Uh-huh. Um I just keep thinking of John Prime. Do you guys know that guy? No. He's like an old country guy from the 70s, 80s, had sort of a resurgence, and then wound up, I think, dying of COVID. Um but he has these songs where he's just like they were these two people, and they weren't that great, but they loved each other and everything was nice. And you're like, damn. Just straight to the point. It's a real good song, right? Yeah. Yeah. So writing. I'd like to be better at writing and like saying things um in a in a way that instead of like developing onion layers, like peels it all back and just says, says like straight ahead things.

SPEAKER_03

Right. I I'm not gonna lie to you, I struggle with that a lot. And I I and when I find out, or whenever you find that answer, you go to the city.

SPEAKER_01

Dude, I think the secret is it's like everything. The secret is just like doing it over and over and over again. Like building the circuits in your brain to do that shit. Right. Um, that's why we're good at communicating and bad at writing, because we communicate all the time, but we don't, but we never write. Like, I I don't even text people, I like voice to text and then go back and I'm like, did I call anybody baby inappropriately? Like, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So that is that is true. That is very true. It goes back to the whole technology conversation again, too. It's like we're losing touch of human skill, basic human skills.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, we don't we we're not even losing touch, we stopped doing them. Yeah, we just like wrote it off, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Unconsciously, almost. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Ah, dude, everything is a battle for attention now. Oh, fuck yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. Like, keep your attention, hold on to it, man.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, don't give it away. I think the the craziest thing is you go on any app or any platform and you have to pay attention, like you only have at least two seconds to keep someone's attention. Oh, dude, I can't. Because if not, it's just gonna be a good idea.

SPEAKER_01

Instagram videos, I I love like a low, like lagging intro to a song that does all kinds of weird shit. Right. You can't do that anymore. Right. Because when you post it Instagram, if it goes like skip.

Australia, Culture, And Perspective

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. No, there's nobody waiting for that. And the metrics, too. You can see how long people usually look at the video before. 1.2 seconds.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's quick. It's good next. Next. It's scary out here, man. Dude, we're the market. We're the we are we are the product. Yeah, like that's social media. That's always been true. I love I love Australia doing limited social media access for people under 16. I think they're gonna lose because the social media companies have all the fucking money. Right. Um, but I I love that they've tried it. I love Australia. Those guys, they have the right idea a lot of the time. I I think it's because they're so far away from anybody else. No, no real influence on themselves. Yeah, they're just like, ah, those guys dump dump Antarctica. Yeah, I who cares? What is it? Like great white sharks in a reef. Right. Hey, fucking crocodile dundee.

SPEAKER_03

G'day. Oh my goodness. Right. I still want to go to New Zealand, I'm not gonna lie. Oh dude, all blacks, right? I would love to. I'd love to do that.

SPEAKER_01

I'd love to. That's a real culture. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. Not not like not like uh not like the way we say it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but that's a culture that developed in isolation over a huge amount of time. Like it's its own, it's its own. whole thing. That's why that rugby team is such a such a badass thing. Like you watch them do their like war, I I forget what it's called, but they do the like war dance. Yeah. Like and it's one of it's just like like it gives me goosebumps when I think about it. Right. Because it's just so real. Like what what like we don't have anything like that in America.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I think a lot of things are very oversaturated, but also like we put ourselves on such a high pedestal.

SPEAKER_01

Oh well yeah but there's no our opinions of ourselves are not to be trusted.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah they're high and not to be trusted. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04

If you were to give a piece of advice to anybody get it whatever it is in life everything that you've gone through or even in your music career what is something that you would love to design think about what you're doing with your time.

Final Advice: Align Time With Goals

SPEAKER_01

And make sure that what you're doing with your time matches what you want in your life. Um even when things are kind of broken there's opportunities if you're thoughtful about where you want to be and honest about how you assess what you're doing now to get where you want to be but you got to be honest and you gotta know what you want to do and you gotta think about it.

Wrap Up And Gratitude

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely well I love that thank you so much for being on I know you have to go down there. Yeah but thank you so much for being on and having you here and and having the opportunity to have this conversation is amazing. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah thanks guys it was fucking awesome good good conversations a pleasure meeting you good luck thank you for having us here I'm glad to be 47 and not 27 right now I still have my sympathy and I'm rooting for you guys.

SPEAKER_04

We appreciate you appreciate it absolutely cheers much love peace peace what a great conversation man what a great conversation thank you thank you man has a pleasure

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