Accountability Corner
Embark on an adventure with Darren, Morgan, and Chris, the dynamic trio steering the ship at "Accountability Corner." As passionate OCR enthusiasts, they're on a mission to share their expertise and enthusiasm for obstacle course racing with the world. From sharing insider tips on overcoming training plateaus to demystifying the complexities of race registration and gear selection, no stone is left unturned. Whether you're a seasoned competitor hungry for fresh perspectives or a newcomer eager to dip your toes into the muddy waters of OCR, these hosts are here to guide you every step of the way. Join them as they peel back the curtain on the electrifying world of OCR, revealing stories of triumph, camaraderie, and boundless adventure.
Don't miss out – tune in and discover why OCR is capturing hearts and minds around the globe!
Accountability Corner
#49: Thibault Debusschere - From Injury to Triumph
When a devastating knee injury threatened to end Thibaut Debuchet's decade-long reign as one of obstacle course racing's elite competitors, many wondered if we'd ever see the Belgian champion on course again. His triumphant return not only defied medical expectations but revealed the extraordinary mental fortitude that's made him a fixture on podiums across the globe.
From the moment Thibaut discovered OCR in 2013, his natural strength and athleticism made him a formidable competitor. A remarkable 11th place finish at his first OCR World Championship in Cincinnati announced his arrival, but it was his consistency over the years that cemented his legacy. Through this conversation, he provides a fascinating window into how the sport has transformed – from the technically demanding courses of Denmark and Poland that rewarded raw strength, to today's more running-focused formats that require different training approaches.
What truly sets Thibaut apart is his relentless adaptability. While maintaining a full-time job for much of his career, he managed to train 100+ kilometers weekly, constantly adjusting his approach as the sport evolved. "Every year I was cutting down training for obstacles and running more and more," he explains, noting how his annual mileage increased by 1,000 kilometers year after year to keep pace with the sport's direction. This willingness to evolve, combined with his natural obstacle proficiency and tactical race awareness, explains his remarkable podium consistency.
The conversation takes a particularly inspiring turn when discussing his rehabilitation journey. After surgery that left him unable to run for three months, Thibaut dedicated 20-25 hours weekly to recovery work, tackling exercises he'd previously neglected. The result? He's returned with improved physiological markers and renewed perspective. "I have a better VO2 max than in 2020. My lactate threshold is higher than before," he shares, demonstrating that setbacks can become opportunities when approached with determination.
Whether you're an elite athlete, weekend warrior, or someone contemplating your first OCR, Thibaut's journey offers valuable lessons about balancing passion with purpose, addressing weaknesses rather than just enhancing strengths, and above all, as he emphasizes repeatedly – keeping the fun alive. Follow his continuing comeback story on Instagram @tibo_ocr and watch for his appearances at upcoming international events!
Welcome to the Accountability Corner, where we talk about everything obstacle course racing, from staying disciplined in training, affording the sport, signing up for your first race and, more importantly, how the sport is growing around the world, with your hosts Morgan Maxwell, chris Shipley and Darren Martin.
Speaker 2:Okay, I am back from my trips abroad and these two did their podcast without me in the last one. So to kick us off on episode 49 of Accountability Corner, we have another amazing guest. So coming from where did Urban Sky, I think, used to race for, wasn't it? It is Thibaut Debuchet. Did I say that correctly, Thibaut?
Speaker 3:Debuchet, that's that. That's in the French. Okay, you can say Thibaut Deboucher, if you want Flemish nice.
Speaker 2:I knew I was going to mess it up either way, so I was hoping you's going to correct me.
Speaker 3:It's not messing up. I'm born in the French side, so actually it's all right for me. How are you? I'm all right. I'm all right, thank you, training a lot lately, coming back from a big injury not so long ago my first, actually, in 10 years, so it's a new one, but it's a strong one, I'm going to say.
Speaker 2:It was very, very hard. We will get on to that because you're what we said in the intros up. We've been three of us been racing for well over 10 years now in ocr and we followed, almost like followed your career as like a celebrity to us because you are, you, we were, I think we can confidently say, one of the best, uh, male athletes in the sport and has you have been for a very long time. Um, so, yeah, it's nice, it's amazing to have you on to chat through things such as injuries, staying accountable in training, staying into the sport, because you've been in the sport for such a long time at a high level that we know that that takes time and effort and, uh, a lot, a lot of your life away.
Speaker 3:Exactly. If you don't have that, it's not going to turn long, then you're going to break soon, mentally or physically. You have to keep going and keep the fun in it. That's the most important, I think. If you don't have fun in racing, then it's over and out soon enough.
Speaker 1:One of the things that always sort of stood out for me. When I see you racing and things, you always came across as sort of a genuine sort of regular guy. I know you've got like a normal job. Well, you had a normal job and you still managed to stay accountable and do all your training through that as well, didn't you?
Speaker 3:I was very lucky actually I was very lucky with my job. My boss was so free with it and he was a musician and I love music and we were talking a lot about that and he was very following my career in sports and every time I had a competition, even if it was two days before, I said I have a new opportunity, can I go this weekend in Italy or Spain? So yeah, okay, no problem go. So that was actually very, very easy. In the spain. So, yeah, okay, no problem go. So that was actually very, very uh easy in the last years. So, yeah, I managed to do this amazing, so you're a musician uh, I love music.
Speaker 3:I love music, all kind of music. But uh, my, my, my ex-boss is a musician, so it was a group who repeated other music from other groups, so I went a few times looking at his shows, cool.
Speaker 2:Nice. Well, I think the listeners like to know a bit of like we do, like a little bit of a history background. I think it would be really good to know how you got into the sport of obstacle course racing, because all of us started as like just got bored of the gym and wanted to find a different challenge and saw this crazy sport. And then we say it quite a lot Once you're in, you never leave, but how did you get into it? So?
Speaker 3:actually I started with trail running ish triathlon with my uncle in 2013 and 2013. It was actually my first endurance sport also, so I never did any endurance or running sport before and uh, very, very fast, uh, forward. We find out that I was a good runner, unless good swimmer. And mountain bike was my middle sport, we're going to say, and so on. I started some trail running. I found out about OCR at my second trail run that I won. The guy was second behind me. He said I was a little bit more muscular, we're going to say, than a normal run. You should try some ocr one day.
Speaker 3:Ocr, what's that? I never heard about it. So I looked it up and uh, very close to my hometown we had uh on the circuit, um from zolder. We had the strongman run was uh, 19k or 21k, 21, 21k. I never ran so long. So it was also a new one and it was very fun because it wasn't that technical. The sport evolved a lot during the years, but the main thing was like mental, so going through the electric cables, going through the water underneath the beam and a lot of running and, yeah, I finished like 17, I think my first race in the OCR, and I was immediately sold for other races in the region in Belgium and very soon we found some OCR in the Ardennes, so in the mountain-ish side from Belgium, and there was a lot more traction than on the asphalt. And, yeah, I found my way to Ohio, cincinnati, for the first world championship like this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I was there at that OCR Cincinnati race and to this day I said it before when Siri came on, and to other people as well, but that was probably the best course I've ever run to date. Mean, can you remember that course like I can? And it was.
Speaker 3:It was so good I remember, like yesterday's incredible and it was also incredible cold that day, just the day. So the week was all right, we had a good weather and just in the night, during the night, was like freezing everybody standing some morning with the jacket on around the fire. It was so crazy. And the night, during the night, was like freezing everybody standing in the morning with the jacket on around the fire. It was so crazy. And the course was so beautiful. So beautiful was daring, a lot of daring. Uh stuff the big, long slide of 100 meter, the big hill with the rope. Everybody was stuck on there.
Speaker 1:It was crazy. I mean we don't, we don't get races like that anymore. I mean I'll take you around with the elite guys like what was? What was your position back then on that first one that you had?
Speaker 3:actually 11th, but I think the coldness uh made me uh ending up so high, because I was a little bit uh. I was working a lot outdoor back then and I was not struggling with the cold like the most of the guys. I remember that. But obstacle wise I was also powerful enough to overcome the most of the obstacles, so I wasn't struggling a lot at all at all yeah, yeah, smashed them as well, but yeah, that was, that was just a day.
Speaker 1:You guys have got to miss that.
Speaker 2:I know it sounds amazing. We, we, uh we was actually talking about the other day. Uh, about that, like we miss those kind of races, where I think we've got one coming up in the uk this weekend, which will actually be today when this goes out. But it's kind of like that old school just in and out of obstacles, in and out of mandatory sort of obstacles, no thinking, no dodgy rule books, it's just in out, just pure grit and determination, and sometimes you miss those kind of races.
Speaker 3:I looked them up in Spain and Portugal. They still keep it like that In Italy also some races, I know. So that's why I do a lot of international races, not to get away of Belgiumgium, but to to find the competition and to find the real type of ocr that we knew before.
Speaker 1:so yeah, I reckon that's what you said it's quite strange now, because it it does seem to be like a lot of ocr, like in different regions it's different. So I guess, since you're traveling around a lot, where's the best places you're finding at the moment? What's, what's taking your boat?
Speaker 3:um, I think in the way of the sun actually. So, italy, sardinia, uh, I'm going a lot uh to Spain also, but the most of the races, the more difficult is, like the east countries, uh, poland, uh, and I never went to those countries but I know they are very hard. They are like the most time the rules with one was bent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the sides of the choice yeah, Going back to when you got into it, because we always talk about the training. These courses change all the time, so training is just so hard to okay. I need to be doing this more, I need to be doing that more. You don't know what balance you're meant to have. How did you find getting into the sport in the beginning, Because you've obviously got immense talent for the sport. Was it talent or did you really adapt the training when you first got into the sport of OCR?
Speaker 3:I think, like you said said, the sport changed a lot lately. But in the beginning, because I come from uh, the working at houses, exterior of houses, I was a lot of uh power in the arms. I was way stronger than in the obstacles and running actually, and, uh, I was lucky with my reach of my arms and strength in my arms that I could overcome all obstacles, like in Cincinnati the first time Not being able to run as strong as John Albon and the other guys back then. But I tried to follow. I tried to look at races around and understanding where the sport was going.
Speaker 3:And now you see more and more that you need to be a fast runner. So actually every year I was, uh, I was cutting down the training for the obstacles, for the bouldering, and I was running more and more and more and you can see it actually at my uh strava or my garmin app that every year I was like 1000 kilometers more running in the legs I had to follow. It's not like you have a path to follow and they say you have to do this, you have to do that, you have to be able to do everything, but you have to know your rivals, rivals, friends. I always say it's friends. I don't have rivals. It's always like uh, a good uh race effort at the moment so, but behind that it's all friends together definitely is the two of these.
Speaker 2:We, we are always competing against each other in the uk. Well, oh, you used to. Mo mo's got a little bit quick recently, um I don't know, we still see him.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we still see the back of me yeah, we call each other rivals rivals yeah we were just talking about that.
Speaker 2:Mo mo's changed his training to be more um. We were saying the other day we need to be more unbalanced and balanced as the athletes. Now you need to think about what portion of your strengths do you need to be unbalanced in to be good at a certain course, and we've been focusing on the running more, haven't?
Speaker 4:you. Yeah, I've kind of switched my training completely to more running based training, just because I think, especially the way the sport's going, you just don't need to be. You still need to be good at obstacles and still need to be strong, but everyone's getting so fast, so the running you have to be able to run yeah, if you, if you don't match the running you have to to win at every obstacle.
Speaker 3:Like five to ten seconds, you can do it on a short course, you can do it like 10 times, 15 times, but behind that it's finished, your arms are burned, you have your fuel of lactic exit and then it's like the run is no not going anymore. Every hill, every uh weight carry you have. You. You're slowing so much down. It's crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, even the short courses are changing a bit, even the short courses. You know you, you're having to put down there. They're spreading the obstacles out, thinning it out a bit, and now you have to put more. You do have to be a better runner, even in the 3k yeah, exactly, exactly I.
Speaker 3:I'm trying every year to to find like a good balance and running and uh, easier obstacle races to get me ready, and then do two or three heavy ones with one wristband that you have to do mandatory every obstacle, so you get ready for the big races, and that's more like a mental thing, uh, and it works very well until now.
Speaker 2:So yeah, did you do that at the beginning? Did you think about it this, uh, like in depth when you OCR? Was it just out there to have fun?
Speaker 3:In the beginning, the first races was have fun a lot, so I really, really enjoyed the thing. But very soon, when you're ending in the top of the world, you are going to think differently. It's like you have to be um sure about what you want to do. If you want to continue for so many years there, there need to be some results, but the fun have to be there. So keep enjoying it and then mix different sports yeah do you have?
Speaker 4:do you sort your training out yourself, or do you have a coach that helps you if you're running or anything like that? Do you sort your training out yourself?
Speaker 3:or do you have a coach that helps you with your running or anything like that? The first five to six years I sorted everything out myself. I joined the athletic club after, but I still only did like one or two training with them just to get the speed and legs, because it wasn't that important at that moment. And finally, now I'm really training with a trainer from the athletic club another one, but I still train myself outside of obstacles for obstacles, like climbing power wise, and now, with the recovery of my knee, I do a lot of power and stabilization, all the type of training that I didn't do before.
Speaker 1:Sounds familiar. We're all changing, aren't we? Other type of training that I didn't do, didn't do before, sounds familiar. We're all changing, aren't we? Yeah, we're all seeming to have to do little piddly bits because we all seem to be injured in certain ways, don't we? Yeah?
Speaker 3:It's always a reminder right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so annoying.
Speaker 2:The little annoying things that take up your time that you wouldn't usually do you have to do.
Speaker 3:Exactly. Exactly things that take up your time that you wouldn't usually do you have to do. Exactly exactly. It is every time. Then it's gone, you can train again and then a few months later it's like, oh, why did I skip? I have another hurting things like muscle or tendon, but uh, I, I'm happy I never had really major problems like a runner knee because I was wearing too much at one point, but not like a broken or everything from pendant, everything badly until last year, the European Championship. That was a very scary moment. I was thinking, no, it's finished yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean.
Speaker 1:I remember seeing your post on that and it was just like, oh my god, I thought I thought that was going to be. I didn't think we was going to ever see you again and I was like I was really upset about that because you know, you're one that we all look up to in the sport and I thought that's because, personally, you think about it like yourself. If that happened to yourself, you'd be distraught because you think, oh, I can't do the thing that I love the most. So how did you feel when that happened? Did you think that's it or did you manage to stay positive about it?
Speaker 3:I try to stay positive, but it's like everything is taken away. So it was really really, really hard, and not even in the beginning. So in the first two to three weeks you don't really know what you have. You don't really know what's gonna happen. You didn't saw any professional uh, surgeons, um doctor, that's looking at pictures and everything, and then everything comes down like okay, that's going to be the recovery, that's going to be the surgery. And uh, slowly, you're getting to a point.
Speaker 3:Yeah, now I really have to retain my sport career. And do I want to continue or do I want to go professionally for my sport, doing something with the sport for the youngsters? I'm getting 37 in June, so it's also an age that you have like, okay, it's getting within all these, but still not too old to continue. Like Jeremy Gachet, there's always somebody that I look up to. He's like almost 10 years older than me and he's still good at it, so it's possible.
Speaker 3:And back then, so after surgery, he said to me like you have three months to do nothing, rethink your career, but you're gonna get back, you're gonna get back, was like okay, I'm gonna remember that and I'm gonna continue mentally to push myself and train. After once I can get at it, and I did. I did like 20 to 25 hours a week training. Uh, all those poor flexibility and exercises I never did before and I came stronger out of it apparently. So, uh, yeah, I did some tests lately and I have a better view to max than in 2020. My elected threshold is higher than before, so it's like what is going to happen in 2025? We're gonna see.
Speaker 1:I suppose seeing results like that after something happening so like catastrophic, you're kind of thinking wow, like you just want to see what's happening then yeah, exactly, and it's a real roller coaster, the emotions going up and down the whole time.
Speaker 3:So getting at your best, quitting your job, living in the mountains, hurting yourself, getting back at it it's like it's crazy. But it makes you strong actually, it makes you strong If you come out of it with a good mentality.
Speaker 1:It's making you stronger, I think lately I've been saying a lot to a lot of other people, like if you've got a hundred bad days, it's like a hundred good stories. So every time you've got like a hundred bad things going wrong, it's a hundred good things you can be telling people or giving yourself positive like reinforcement exactly no, nicely said I like that ships. I know it's been going. It's a song. It's. It's a song called 100 Bad Days and I've been playing it a lot. It's just like a really upbeat song.
Speaker 2:Okay, you're playing it over and over, yeah.
Speaker 4:No, it's word for word.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wouldn't go that far.
Speaker 2:You mentioned something there that is quite rare to us in the UK Apart from, obviously, john Elburn. To us in the uk, apart from, obviously, john alban, there hasn't been someone that's come out in the uk that has said this is a career or this is like their professional athlete. Um, so when did it happen for you because obviously I was going to ask you about that was it motivating to get through this injury? Because it was you in your head, it is your career. And then, like, when did that first? When did you first think that this could be like an actual career or an actual professional path that I could follow as a sportsman?
Speaker 3:that's difficult to say, actually, because I was chasing it for a few years. I tried so many different sponsors and I'm lucky to to be a good friend of rick urban from number sky. So we started everything back in 2017, if I don't mess up the date and very quickly we had a good Belgian team, a good Netherlands team within Rumble Sky and that made us a good athlete-sponsored team, but not professionally, and to be professionally sponsored, you really need to have a good sponsor, have enormous results at different sports, I think, to be viewed in a larger scale of sports. So we don't have this in Belgium.
Speaker 3:It's very difficult and I wanted to actually move out of Belgium to go into the mountains what I still want to do, but it's a little bit put on the side now. So I continued working, I bought a home and lately I sold the house. I moved to Italy for a few months. I should have been there at this moment if I wasn't injured, if I didn't get injured, and actually I would have been like a guide in the mountains. So I wanted to follow some lessons and being in the mountains like going over from a good athlete to a sports person in the mountain and mixing it with giving lessons, private lessons, to obstacle racers all around.
Speaker 3:Now it's changed, because I was hurt, so I was like I had to go fuel sports or fuel for my work, so it was the only choice I had, because of the age also. And now I had an opportunity not so long ago to join a team from dubai, where some other international athletes are also, and this made me change my mind, luckily in a good way. From okay now I'm going for two years fuel sport and I have the luck to be living at home again with my mother and having no costs. So, yeah, that's the way I took it. It's not like I said. I want to be it and I have sponsors and I can do it freely.
Speaker 2:It's very, very difficult to find this way, yeah, but what you've said there there's younger athletes in the UK that might need to hear this as well is that you've just that has been your one goal, though, like always, that is always the thing that might need to hear this as well is that you've just that has been your one goal, though, like always, that is always the thing that you've been chasing, and it's not that you've been, you know, half-heartedly or or like at part-time, going towards it you've been going forever.
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, for 100%, even when I was working was like I was running 100 kilometers a week and working 40 hours a week and doing the whole stuff at home because I was living alone. So, yes, I was really chasing that dream to be the best and preserving my body. So sleeping enough even if you have not so much time. So, yeah, Nice.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of the youngsters forget, though, that you know, I don't think it's as glamorous as a lot of people put out on social media, and that You've got all these athletes there and they look like they're living the life of Riley, don't they? They look like they're doing all kinds of cool stuff. I don't think people realise it. It's not highly paid, it's not graceful, it's damn hard work. You've got to put it in the graph.
Speaker 3:Like everything in life, work you've got to put in the graph. Like everything in life, you've got to work hard to get good results. Yeah, it's a double job. Actually, it's behind your job at work, it's a second job, so you need to be very, very good at it and continue following your, your, your steps and evolve in the sports. But it's uh, it's damn hard.
Speaker 1:Only a few athletes in the world have the opportunity to be like free and do the sports they want without working thing is that it always makes you like like if I wasn't doing the sport outside of work, I don't think I'd be such as good as my job as I am. I think doing the sports it's like a double-edged sword in it, like you're doing the sport and things and you're getting like results and training and doing some hard things outside of work, but then when you go to work it's just like this ain't actually that bad, and then you're just putting in the graft in at work and you're thinking, well, I'm getting some good results at work as well and like your whole life becomes quite, quite decent actually we talked a lot about a before.
Speaker 3:When you are a professional athlete, you need to do the results. When you are not, when you're working, you can do the results. You do your best, but if you don't, you still have your monthly pay. So the mental side is also difficult. I was thinking about it very long ago when John Albon was still raising OCR. If you don't make those results. He had a difficult time. He was living with his wife in the mountains but he still had. He needed money, he needed to make results, to have sponsors. So that's also a difficult side. To be a professional athlete and we talk a lot about it with Leon also and other athletes. And yeah, finding your way is not easy, but you still have to be very consistent, very consistent.
Speaker 2:But leon's okay, though. He's got his instagram followers, so he's he's all right there we know how long that we know how hard that is as well yeah, just need good hair.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, good hair.
Speaker 2:Isn't he just good, just good hair he's just not good hair, isn't he just good hair?
Speaker 1:yeah, darren, you should have more instagram followers now okay, I'll try.
Speaker 2:I'm not good. I'm not as good as him, though, that's the only thing. Yeah, well, that that's a good point. Then, going back to, because what I was trying to lead you with this is that, um, I'm trying to really understand how you've come back from such a like let's, let's be honest, it's a very hard injury you've come back from, and so the mindset is that this, this is something you were purely chasing and you just didn't want to give, didn't want to give it up, and you, you really put in the work again, like you've. You've learned again that you need to put in the work, and you've come out, come out of it especially after three months not being able to run, two months not standing on the leg.
Speaker 3:So that was actually a very hard time coming back from that. But luckily and unluckily so I still had my insurance and everything in Belgium. And after the European Championship when my mother was there, we drove back home and immediately look up on the internet for the best surgeons from Europe where I could get. And there was one in Belgium, actually one of the best worldwide. So I was immediately mailing with him and after three or four days I could get there. He wanted to go on vacation two weeks later. So he said, if you want, I can fix everything just before I go on vacation and see you before. And that was my leg actually, and I went there. So he is very well, well known with the back side of the knee, where the nerve from the whole tbr and the foot and ankle everything is. And he told me that side is normally not uh, they don't do surgery at that side if you have only a muscle or only the backside, the PCL. But I had, like the PCL and the muscle and the exterior tendon. So he was very skeptical about it.
Speaker 3:You can't come back, but you have to listen to your body. You have to listen, but you can't come back. And have to listen to your body. You have to listen, but you can't come back. And I remember that from the beginning. Um, I look how it went and actually it went good, because it wasn't only uh, it was only like mechanical, it was not a, or you say the, the hamstring, or the, the quadriceps, the most important rolling muscles. So mechanically I'm 100 back and that gives it, gives me a confidence, a lot of confidence. So after three months I could bend my knee, 90, I could stand on it. So it was like, okay, I can't get back. And then then you have to follow, follow like your body is evolving and luckily I'm, I'm back. So but it's very hard, I can't say have you noticed?
Speaker 4:have you noticed any difference since coming back with movement or anything, or is it all?
Speaker 3:it's you. You, how can I say this? You feel some things always, but it's like you have some liquid inside, some days a little bit more, some days a little bit less, and after the the weeks, the months have passed, it goes away. So the only difference I have no, it's like I can't bend my leg like 100, I can't touch my, my heel on my uh, uh, I can't do it, but I still have to to work like one minute on it. But in the beginning was like 10 centimeter and it completely blocked at that point. So I wasn't flexible at all to go underneath a wall. But I did my first ocr race three weeks ago and, without thinking about it, with adrenaline and everything, I went on underneath the wall and when I stood up it was like, oh, okay, it bends again, like, okay, it goes. So it works. And I don't feel anything from sideways or my knees going too far. No, everything is all right. I can't, I can't even go on my knee like crawling and everything.
Speaker 2:So I'm confident it's uh, it's all right just just to make sure listeners understand this, because you're saying it's all right and they might think, oh, it's just, it's okay now, but how many extra hours of work have you put in to rehabilitate your leg? You must have, like, yeah, you must have done a lot of work on top of training as well.
Speaker 3:Like we always say this A lot because I don't work. So it was mainly my only job and that's the choice that I made. I could work again, but I made the choice to do a 100% recovery because I want to get back, and it's not like I want to get back in two or three years, I want to get back after nine months. I want to run again like I was.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah I think, that's where it's different, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it's just yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah cool stuff you think about how many hours you put in jibs.
Speaker 1:No, I'm just thinking about I'd love it because, coming from like a personal thing, it's just like I have some niggles at the moment. It's just like I just want to get back to it and I just I just don't think I'm getting the hours in for it. But then I'm just trying to think, where am I going to get the extra hours? And it's, it's, it's a constant battle. It's just like right, I'm gonna have to just see what I can do and put more, more time into doing something. And it's difficult, it is difficult to just try and find time. Time's the hardest thing you got yeah, because rest is also training.
Speaker 3:If you don't rest enough, you are burning yourself up. So exactly that's always a struggle. I remember when I was working I came back home, I ate a little bit because I was very hungry for my training. I slept one hour. I went training. I get back home at 9, 9, 30. I make some food, I eat. It was 11, 11, 30. I had to go to bed, get up again at seven 30. So everything was so tight Shuttles. It's incredible.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but like I said, I was like 20 to 25 hours training. So three days in a week I went to the physio. He has like a whole fitness only for rehabilitation for the knees and I did like three to three and a half or three times a week and the days between him was at home doing flexibility and putting eyes on it. So yeah, also with our electroshock um, what do you say electroshock? Machine, yeah, yeah to make the muscles move. Uh, the day between and so?
Speaker 2:but three and a half hour, two times a day, three times a week, that's quite hard that is a lot and I was just thinking from an ocr point of view, because obviously most people listen to this about ocr, um races, the rehabilitating your leg when it comes to just running, can actually be quite a simple thing that you can. You have one specific thing you need to to rehabilitate towards, but then OCR is a lot of twist and turn. In jumping, landing is probably one of the biggest things that you've got to think about, isn't it? Because you can never predict how you're going to land on the ground and how are you with?
Speaker 3:that so actually, um, I was always like, born naturally with the, the movement and everything in the air. So I was a horse rider before and I found a lot, I learned to fall and I got on it. So actually, uh, that's my my luck and I do a lot of bouldering. I did a lot of bouldering. So the biomechanical and mental side of the jumping and going down and everything is still in it. I tried everything. I have no problem and that's actually my luck.
Speaker 3:Also, how the injury happened it didn't happen like a running, like a football injury. I didn't push on my foot at that moment. I didn't twist or pull anything with a side power from somebody else, but I did it with pulling at my heel. So actually my hamstring pulled my knee out of the place where it was and I didn't injure like meniscus or anything inside the knee and that's so. I can still jump, I can still do anything, I can twist a pool on it and it's strong.
Speaker 3:But, like you said, the rehabilitation is a lot different and I'm happy I was at the physio here not so far away where two people are very well known with, uh, with knee rehabilitation, and they didn't. They made me a lot of exercises, especially for trail running and unstable uh sort of sports. Nice, that's good, yeah, like a fitness ball and pulling at your, your muscles, your, your hamstring, like uh, unbalanced. And yeah, in the beginning it's like an elastic but in the end it's like very unbalanced and you need to have a lot of power from, uh, yeah, from your knee we, we were there, I think we, we were aside when it happened.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we know, we know, we know it was up the warped wall, wasn wasn't it? Yeah, have you been up a warped wall since? Yeah, yeah, oh, okay, no problem.
Speaker 3:I've been up on a boulder wall and I also did pulling the same thing. I went to a race three months post-surgery and looking at the athletes and like how the hell did I do that? Because everybody pulls at the heel, it's a normal thing and this is something I forgot to tell earlier when we were talking about the sport evolving. In the beginning the sport was very straightforward a lot of power, go fast through it, stand on it. But it's more and more technical and putting your heels and twisting and everything. I'm gonna say the sport is getting too fast. We have to go so fast through the obstacles that sometimes it's getting too easy for some athletes that you don't train everything and that's my mistake.
Speaker 3:For one year I only climbed like four or five times and I trained all my obstacles only during races, so not so many. I ran a lot. I was like 4,500 kilometers in one year, so that's way more than before, and my body was very strong in one direction running. So I did like way too much strength exercise for the hamstring, for the squats, but some muscles between, some tendons between were not strong enough and I was tired. It was the second day of the european championship. I did a wrong move, at the moment that I pull up my heel and it gets true, but that's very important to know. You still have to train everything, even if it's too easy for some part of.
Speaker 2:Some athletes are going to say yeah, that's why we love this sport. You, you have to be good at everything. Or you's why we love this sport. You, you have to be good at everything, or you want, you know, not good at everything. You have to be training and be strong at all body bodily movements. I'd say like, because there's, there could be a sudden surprise movement that you've got to make and then you, you need to be strong in that that motion, which, obviously, that you came up on. But going back to, um, uh, going back to when the sport was super technical, because those days I I kind of missed them, but kind of don't at the same time, because they were just disgusting and everyone queuing up at obstacles isn't what we wanted. But how did you train for when? When you, I'm thinking back to, like denmark, because that was that was very yeah, no well, we remember poland.
Speaker 2:I think I've just my hands have just recovered from poland. Yeah, how, how did you find? I suppose back then it wasn't just running, was it? You was really going into the obstacles and the technical, technical side that was so.
Speaker 3:Obstacle strongness, that was incredible. It was one after the other and I didn't even start like fuel base or I was like 20. I think there was a special elite wave, you remember?
Speaker 2:yeah it was an introduction wave or so it was the you got in. Yeah, it was about five or eight people at the.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the elite wasn't there like 15 to 20 I was it okay yeah, 50 to 20 and after that was like 70 to 80. Uh yeah, I didn't run like crazy, it was only at the beach that was getting up to top five. I think nicolai dam at that moment and john was still two or three minutes away from me. But then I knew from the short course that I saw that everything was so packed so it was crazy and I didn't train differently back then. I just bouldered a lot between the running. So I did like 70 to 80K a week, what was a normal thing, and I did two or three times bouldering. And this is going slowly down because the easiest easiness of the obstacles the last years, but uh yeah, I think my strong point at that moment was obstacles getting easier through obstacles.
Speaker 2:and now yeah too big obstacles and what's he doing and rope swings he was good at, because that that got you just just at the end.
Speaker 3:I remember that it wasn't only a rope swing, because if I did it the same way, I was behind them. So I did like I don't know if you know, with with horses you have to to make the horse going faster. When you do a launch around, you have like a slamming thing, yeah. So I took the rope and I did this and I catch the rope like two meters before and at that moment I just went a few lower. I was like, if I don't do it now, I'm second either way. So that was the second switch.
Speaker 2:That was great. That was a really intense finish. That that's finish. We need more of those storylines. They were good it's incredible.
Speaker 3:I see the picture here and there still, so it's fun to know, fun to remember. John wasn't beaten until then, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, I remember being at the side saying John Albon, he's incredible. I think I was telling my friend that was there side saying like this, this John Albon, he's incredible. I think I was telling my friend that was there and he's like, oh, this is the best person in sport, he's incredible. And then he, yeah, even I think Leon even beat him on the 3k, didn't he? That was John's first time. I think he stepped out of the race. Yeah, at the, I think they were hooks Anchors.
Speaker 3:Exactly To spare himself for the day after Because it was so obstacle packed.
Speaker 2:He wanted to rest, so that you could then beat him.
Speaker 3:That was it, but that was nice. Okay, I'm going to be honest, it was a little bit too hard at that moment. I think the sport evolved too fast, but it's going down too fast also.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's like a wrong slope. It should have been if there wasn't a being of COVID. That should have been like no Denmark. So the obstacles trained, I'm going to say so, getting to a certain level. No, denmark should be good if COVID wasn't uh, didn't happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what? What course would you prefer? What? What would what would be fit into your skill set? Do you reckon, like, if you could fit the perfect one? Because you've got had them? Well, I remember amsterdam was super technical and soaking wet so it was terrible. They didn't change up the obstacles so it was really difficult. Then you had denmark, poland, but then we've spoken about on this podcast that italy, like you say, went down too far with like this simplification of obstacles because they're really short.
Speaker 1:Now yeah, hungary was quite nice. But yeah, hungary was nice. But then that was the first one where they introduced the three band system, which kind of made the race different. It didn't make the race the same way that a race used to be, because now you're taking a lot more care before going into the obstacles, because you've got three lives. So I mean, how do you feel about the new three-band system in that side of things?
Speaker 3:It's a love-hate relationship. It's like you don't take risks anymore. Even if you are very good, you don't jump into the obstacles. If you can take like five to ten seconds against other athletes that are not so strong but better and running, you're losing a lot of time. I think, like you said, hungary was actually one of the best between in still large obstacles some, some of them, and not too much but the three band system shouldn't have been at that moment.
Speaker 1:I think I think if that was, if that was like, um, the usual one band system, I don't think you would have had major queuing anyway, because I think a lot of people you know a couple of goes on some obstacles. They would have got that people have the technique now to get through a lot of things. You know, I think the skill set some obstacles. They would have got that people have the technique now to get through a lot of things. You know, I think the skill set's gone up a level. But then you got, you went to italy. We all expected the same sort of thing and then wallop, it was like well, this is easy compared that's what I meant for denmark.
Speaker 3:Actually, denmark was too early. If denmark was after hungary and we had still the one-band system, I think it was a better slope. So getting harder. I'm saying what I prefer, what I love most. I wasn't getting so good at running until the last two or three years. Obstacle-wise I'm still strong enough, but I don't think I can compete like against leon, even if it's the long course. I think leon should beat me now in denmark on a long course because his running skills are also good enough. So they change during the year. You, your body, change every year also, and getting older is not getting easier, even if you don't want to admit it.
Speaker 2:We don't want to admit it, so yeah.
Speaker 3:But there is something new. So I'm going to go more in the sides of the East countries and there the obstacles are easier. It's a lot more running in the sand and the heat, so it's going to be another level. You're going to see how the body is going to react to that. It's all about pushing yourself.
Speaker 1:No, yeah and it seems like I don't know, the the far east well, not the far east, the middle east, might I say. They seem to be bringing in, they seem to be getting people to go and it's like, from an outsider point of view, which is where we're coming from, it's quite weird because it's like races that we're probably never going to go to, but we're seeing all the best races that we've sort of witnessed in the past heading over there, because, because they, they, they're giving them the funds to, to perform. But you know, we just don't know what it's like from our spectator way.
Speaker 2:Go on, dan well, they I think they don't know if you agree with this. They're giving the media a spotlight, um, which is something you need in a sport, don't? You need to showcase the best of the best in sport and it the media and social media is the only way to do that, and ocr series did it amazing back in the day because we remember watching you on the uh on the salmon ladder not to say don't think you've got through it, but yeah, that was like some of the best recording that I've ever seen, like proper commentary, everything. Then you had toughest race, had the series that was. The media was amazing there. Um, we've had it back in the past. Media has been amazing in the uk, but then now it's kind of like switched to be in the uh middle east. So that's probably that's where it needs to, needs to go well.
Speaker 3:Well is going because of that we don't have a choice, we have to follow. It's like it is going that way exactly and I reckon that, uh, it was a lot of nice movies to re-watch and to follow. I think Sweden is still doing a good job here in Europe. So, like Thor's Trophy is very well filmed last year, so I think also the World Championship is going to be a very good championship there this season. But, yeah, everything in the Middle East you don't go on vacation like two or three weeks, it's around your country, so it's it's way further away and yeah how do you, how do you feel as an athlete in in obstacle course racing, being like I don't feel, like you some.
Speaker 2:As an athlete an elite athlete you have the choice of where you want to go, because the media is always moving so much in the spend, so you actually are, you're moved as an athlete rather than choosing to move. Do you? Are you happy to do it? To do that, to move wherever it goes. I'm happy to see the world.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I like that it's actually the one of the main thing that I always liked about OCR is it's moving a lot. It's going around the world and, yeah, that's the thing I like the most. But following because of the money trail we're gonna say in the media trail, that's a little bit sad. Not that I'm against to go there, not at all. It's another type of race, but it's strange and I think, like you said, you have to follow if you have to, if you want to be with the top athletes, if you want to have a good rivalry or good reliability with other athletes, you have to follow the good races and, like you saw now, uh lately, in all the posts of uh I on my instagram. I can see it in my page. I don't know the name about it. I see it every time All athletes going to there. Oh, he's going there, sorry.
Speaker 1:The algorithm.
Speaker 3:Exactly the algorithm.
Speaker 2:It's difficult when the sport isn't that big and it moves around. The spotlight moves around the world. It's not just one big spotlight like you can't, as an elite athlete, just choose, like basically I'm just compare it to football, for instance like it's big in every country so you can follow a career as an elite athlete in each country, but ocr has a spotlight which only gets spotlighted around the, around the world wherever the media goes. So, like Mo, for instance, just bring you into the conversation because you've just recently joined the Spartan team, spartan elite team in the UK, and you've done that because of that spotlight as well, isn't it? In a way, you need to get that?
Speaker 4:Yes, because Spartan especially, especially maybe not so much now, but still spartan seemed to be the most kind of recognizable races. Like we had that incident on the podcast. So I podioned at spartan race and our podcast numbers just flew because people were seeing it more and saw, oh, one of your guys was at spartan and put like podiums, they must be good. So it's kind of like, ah, we're all gonna jump on the bandwagon. But yeah, it's definitely different races hold different caliber and bring in a different caliber of athlete there and you kind of just have to go where that is yeah, because it's a sad situation, because there's some like local races that we've done, that we've probably all done and they've been amazing.
Speaker 2:Just no one's seen them like they. They were just incredible little races that ships like nudge challenge or or even like um we we did a race in scotland last week, which is in tartan, and I guess the world probably wouldn't have seen that, but that was an incredible race and I think you would have even loved it. It was really technical, yeah, it was great, but no one sees all this yeah, it's sad, not all races that are good are well known.
Speaker 3:No, that's why you have to choose not only the the important races, but also the fun side. So I did a lot of races in uh, in sardinia and spain, like I said, just just to get happy to to see the world and not only do it for for the results, even if I don't win.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how, going back to just because in the uk we've got such a strong community base of age group fun runners, literally the community is so big and there's so many different training venues around the uk and I guess the listeners of this podcast would like to know if they're like, how does that compare to to say, belgium, like, is there communities, is there training venues? Because we know urban sky like, but I've seen that for years that I'd love to go to that place, like literally just the best obstacles all in one place. But is there other training venues that people go to to train for obstacle course racing?
Speaker 3:That's actually crazy, because when you go to a championship you see England everywhere. So that's always been like the main group, the most big support team and athletes packed country. But now Belgium, you had like a few good elite athletes and then it's like a big gap and now you get a lot of young guys because the federation had to restart again. That's another story. So we don't have a lot of facilities here. We have I think four or five, and at every facility we're gonna have, like if we have a short course race, the belgium league and and within two weeks we have the long course of the belgium championship. Um, it's also not at a place where we can train, but it's a very good race, what I've seen for the moment.
Speaker 3:But for for training obstacles actually, we have not so many places. It's a little sad. Lately we have I don't know if I can say where, but we have the luck that somebody from a good brand of the minister of sports has made a course or obstacle training course, uh, for athletes and especially in mindset for the modern padlet long uh, where we're gonna have the possibility to train, and I think this is gonna be like an evolving moment in the sport of ocr in belgium. So until now we didn't have any relationship with the Minister of Sports for OCR.
Speaker 2:Okay, that link is coming in across every federation around the world, isn't it that pentathlon link? We've got it. There's a university in Bath in England which we've partnered with. I think we have partnered with ships every week as british obstacle sports the memorandum of like a like almost I don't know.
Speaker 1:Do you know, do you know what, like lately there's been so much?
Speaker 1:yeah well, no, I think it needs to be said because, like there's loads of stuff going on and now and it's just like I think it's happening in every country and we just don't know where we stand. On all this sort of thing, I mean, a lot of people just want to race and have a good race that fulfills all our needs and has, like, really good battles, really good obstacles, a really balanced course, and we just on the political side of things, you just don't know what's going on really from like our side of things. I think that's in in in a lot of countries as well, like belgium is the same, coming from you, and I think like some other places are just feeling the same way it seems to be a lot of muddy water and it's not clear.
Speaker 4:I think the whole everyone we've had on the podcast as well, from different countries, has said similar things. It'd be interesting to see what your take is, but this just seems there's no real direction for the sport. No one's got like a map of where it really wants to go. It's kind of just let's try this and then let's try this, and then it there's no. At least they're not communicating with us what's kind of what is the plan or what is gonna happen yeah, it's true, and not only that, the obstacles.
Speaker 3:We had now the luck that the person who built the course had contact with my sponsor, rick Urban. I don't even know how he's gotten there, but, yes, like good obstacles that we knew before and we can train to a lot of different, we can train a lot of different obstacles, but for the same way he had like a Chinese variant I don't know a Polish variant and he didn't have anything. What is really seen now in the races in the World Championship or the European Championship. So there is no real way to follow either for training camps.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we don't know what's coming. And I mean the race racing. I think it should always be an element of surprise and that challenge of when you're at the race china I like that side of it, but it's like we need to. Maybe, if we're gonna go this way of making it a real sport or making it something really competitive, at least some guidelines or at least some just clarity of, okay, this is what we're looking for yeah, I think we talked about it a few years ago with some athletes and also some federations.
Speaker 3:Should be a nice thing, for example, to have like a list of 100, 120 obstacles and saying at every race we're gonna have 40 and we say, and then just pick out the, pick out the catalog of obstacles, yeah, those 40 is going to be there, you know it. And then 10 surprises off the list, but that you don't know. But you have to train them. And then also the facilities and the federations can adapt every training center to it and every athlete can train like it has to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah it's the best of both worlds, then it's not like spartan in a way that it's very like straightforward but, it's, but it still gives the like, the surprise nature that obstacle course races like as well.
Speaker 2:it still gives that ability to have a mix-up of 10 obstacles but then, like your, 90 of your obstacles are are the same throughout the world and it gives a fair advantage for every racer to develop not just develop in the sport, but actually just everyone to be able to train the same and actually share stories of how they get through different things.
Speaker 1:That would yeah that would be good. That's. The annoying thing is that this has come up time and time again.
Speaker 3:Loads of people have spoken about it it, but no one's listening sometimes. So people, I'm gonna say at the head of the sports, they can't do anything about it. It's like you have to follow, and I don't want to to lose energy at it. I'm gonna say like that you've got enough.
Speaker 2:You've got enough to do already go your rehab.
Speaker 1:You can't do we get spoken about for being trying. We are. We are pushing the sport and trying to make it. We try and spread the word and make it so people enjoy it and love it and feel about how we feel about it. But yeah, it's, it's a bit of a pain in the backside so every now and again. But, like you say, you just got to keep rolling forward and we're still going to keep turning up the races because we want to race people and no matter where we go, the same people that we want to race are going to be there and hopefully we just keep battling yeah, the sad.
Speaker 2:The sad thing is that I don't know if it is a sad thing, but a world championship race could be anywhere in the world. As long as the best athletes in the world are there, then it is a.
Speaker 3:It is a race like exactly yeah, it doesn't have to have the name. No, it doesn't, it's, it's said. For example, the world championship last year. It wasn't a. It's sad. For example, the World Championship last year it wasn't a World Championship, it was like a five, six men's race, so one was also like three or four women. Then it's not a championship, it's like a normal race. Then you have more at the Storm Viking in 2017, 18, 19, and then the World Championship and European Championship.
Speaker 2:It shouldn't be hard to, it shouldn't be unaccessible. That is not the way to build a sport, to create a championship race and the pricing distance. All of that come into play. Like it should just be easy to get to and easy to pay for.
Speaker 3:Also, like I loved Italy, so Bulgaria was so nice but it was damn expensive for some people. I had luck that I lived there close to but yeah.
Speaker 1:We couldn't even find any food. It was all closed.
Speaker 2:It was shut.
Speaker 1:We found the bar, though that was all found that we managed to get a party, yeah we, we, yeah, we probably the same as you.
Speaker 2:We spend all of our money and time on obstacle course racing. We just travel out to all different races and it is fun to travel around and where. Where are you off to next? Where's your next race? Uh little race, or big race, go go, little race, because we got out for the little races so actually that's a little bit of my training secrets, okay, no, no, no, I'm kidding.
Speaker 3:Uh, you're about here.
Speaker 3:We have like with athletics teams we have one hour races with two people and it's 1K every time. So back and back and back. So you run 1K, you have three minutes rest 310, depends on who you have with you in the team and that's for one hour. So we tried last week to have 19K. We had 18.8. So it was very, very fast and it's off-road ish, street, ish, changing terrain. So it's it's a good training tactic to get the vo2 max in it.
Speaker 3:Then the first after that. So next week is going to be the next one. Uh, in two weeks I have the bel Belgian Championship. That's going to be like a good race, but I don't know if it's like an international race-ish. It's still finding myself back after the injury. So I'm happy, it's not too hard. But the first one that I have a lot of international athletes is the Arabian Warrior. It's the second weekend of May, in three weeks, I think. Then Then I'm going the last weekend, the last day of May, the first day of June, in Spain, poseidon race, 165 obstacles. It's like two times the short course, 10k with two times the short course is crazy. I don't even finish there, well there, but it's a good training and it's a nice place to be I've seen that the poseidon race is looks technical.
Speaker 3:That looks like a last year they took out like two obstacles because it was raining. Two obstacles, um no, but after that it's european championship. So I have like three main races getting me ready to do and trying to keep healthy, because I was a little bit ill last month. I'm getting better, back at it. So yeah, it's always difficult. It's like a roller coaster, since I'm back from Italy.
Speaker 1:Double does that.
Speaker 2:We're off to um tough viking this weekend, testing out, testing out the course for the world championships so that would be fun yeah, yeah, that's a nice one.
Speaker 3:I'm actually a little bit sad I'm not there, but uh, yeah, surprised surprised you got your videos yeah, yeah, we'll make sure we put some videos up.
Speaker 2:And then Mo's racing in the UK. We have a series race in the UK as well. We have a long course and a short course series. It goes around different courses in the UK, which is really cool.
Speaker 3:I think you need that now right For the point system for the qualification, everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:More and more countries doing it. I'm lucky to be able to do the short course and the long course this year for European and World Championship, because I have no points.
Speaker 1:I was injured so yeah, but you should get in on it. I'm sure you'll get in they should give you a spot.
Speaker 2:I don't think they're going to be like no, sorry, not this year.
Speaker 3:Sorry, mate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right though it's changed, and it's changed in a good way that you have to race 3K races to qualify 3K and you have to race long course races to qualify for the long course, and I do like that that's's happened, because in the past you could race a 3k and qualify for the 15k and you turn up to the 15k. You're like I wasn't prepared for this.
Speaker 1:yeah, even before that you could just turn up, just turn up you just run past everything, get a good time running past every obstacle and turn up and after the top 30, you have like one hour difference with the top three.
Speaker 2:I've been there back in Amsterdam and that was I think. It took me like four and a half hours to get around that course.
Speaker 3:It was good isn't it?
Speaker 2:There was a lot of urban sky obstacles then.
Speaker 3:Like Denmark? Yeah, isn't it there was a lot of urban sky obstacles.
Speaker 2:Then yeah, like Denmark, like Denmark what else ships did you want to go through?
Speaker 1:well, we could talk forever really we could actually.
Speaker 2:There's quite a lot we could go through.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I guess one question I want to ask is like if you could tell, like our listeners, anything that keeps you accountable, like what advice that could, like you could tell our listeners how to stay accountable for everything, like what's the main piece of advice to stay accountable, or you think to make people stay accountable?
Speaker 3:Don't do yourself. Just follow the process and every year you're getting better. It's difficult to say. Everybody is different, so you have to find your weak points and work at it slowly. Don't overdo it. Find your weak points and work at it slowly. Uh, don't overdo it. And uh, if you have a weak point for example, when you run more and you're getting injured try to do another sport. To no, no, no, not to change, but to be a better runner, doing different sports, like a triathlete can be a good runner because it has a lot of base and swimming and and riding his bike, but consistency and yeah yeah, I must say I agree.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I've been. I've been riding the bike a lot more lately at the moment I've been. I've been getting really into gravel, gravel biking and I don't want to go into gravel biking because there's a big discussion on that, but I have been well enjoying it it's important thing to keep the fun.
Speaker 3:To keep the fun, I'm going to the mountains, sometimes for two or three weeks or sometimes a month, because I'm able to and I don't do those intense training. I just go up and down the mountains. I enjoy the views.
Speaker 1:I'm going to camping places all around in the mountains nothing better than just being out moving your body and just enjoying stuff, isn't it? That's one one thing I've really enjoyed lately because I've not been focusing on just training so much. But I've taken a step back and it's just, I've so missed just going out like and just doing stuff, just being like mobile and just having fun and and you know what, yeah, you just feel fitter for that mental fitness.
Speaker 3:Fitness is also a great point. And then sleeping enough just getting relaxed mentally makes you strong.
Speaker 2:It's like 10 of your results mostly is there anything that you would like to know from us in terms of like from the uk? Uh, is anything uh, I don't know, from obstacle course racing if it's a changed or adapted or so, um, actually the the most of the races that I knew back then.
Speaker 3:I don't think like mr mouse is still well it sort of is it's a different name and it's not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not as big anymore. Um what's it called now? Dan, what's that? Um? So mr mouse is one.
Speaker 2:What tough guy, tough guy yeah it's now called tough something I don't think it's still around anymore.
Speaker 1:It's still going, still the same place, but it's under a different name and it's not as it's not, as it's not, as it's not the same. Basically, no same place, different race what's?
Speaker 2:what's happened in the uk is that british obstacle sports have just done an incredible job for the last two or three years, building up the credibility of the sport and giving it um, like bringing together all of our training centers, bringing together all of our races. We have a great community of uk ocr, which is another community team not a team, but a community that started to create a series of races throughout the uk. We, I'd say we, have a good selection of fun races and competitive races in the uk, not as many as they used to be. There used to be a race every weekend. Now it's like one a month or two a month, not even that, I don't.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, I think it's good enough. No, yeah, if you're like one or two a month maximum, then you see the best athletes almost every time, everywhere, if you have too much yeah, that that's one thing that's actually got amazing.
Speaker 2:Amazing. Better is that me, mo ships, all the other athletes that at the top of the game in the uk are always at the same races, which is is. I think you can't go wrong. If you've got that, you, you you're doing well, yeah, and that is something we don't. I think in the past, when there were so many races, you were trying to either pick races where the best people were or you're trying to pick a race where they weren't, so you could win.
Speaker 3:I went internationally and didn't stay in Belgium For a year or two. I was like hoping that Thomas Beuvel was staying and keeping training, because this was like keeping the fire on for me. I had to train, I had to be at the same level as him if I wanted to be good at the European and World Championship and also in a team. So it was like it was my follower, so getting there and the youngster getting better and better, it's like Is that what pushes you further and further?
Speaker 2:do you think is like a? Because when you, the ceiling in the uk is high, but, mo, you probably agree with me, it's not as high as it could be or should be to be competitive in the world. But suppose, did you? Did you find to keep pushing your ceiling to be better, you was putting yourself in environments that you were, there were better athletes around you. Is that how to do it?
Speaker 3:that's exactly how to do it finding the racists where the athletes are and not going for the easy win. So what?
Speaker 1:was it? Was it siri said last week if you're not the fastest, if you're the fastest person in the room, you need to change rooms. You need to change rooms.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like I like that, and siri said that, yeah, that was good. Yeah, and yeah, I think you need to keep changing rooms and I think that's.
Speaker 1:Uh, we're going to get a rude awakening when we go to tough biking, probably this weekend yeah, because we're going to be in a faster, we're going to be in a different room in a fast room.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've seen the start line. I know that martin martin's there, so yes, yeah yeah, a lot of strong athletes are going.
Speaker 3:I saw the list. Uh, I saw the people posting about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll see how we get.
Speaker 3:I'm setting up there, but it's too early to get to a big race now. But I think, uh, I think in the united kingdom you're doing a great job with the media and getting the athletes ready and the races were always good. When I went there, I had always a lot of fun, especially the big races like the World Championship and European Championship, spartan and everything You're always welcome to come over. I had always good results when I went to England.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we know, we've seen them.
Speaker 2:I love the little hills. Definitely come over to one of the races, because I think even Liam was pleasantly surprised with the competition. Now it's got a bit. It's got much better than it has. We're not just John Albon, we always seem to live on that it's difficult to know.
Speaker 3:Also when you're into the season. You don't know which country has good athletes coming up and suddenly it's like the dark horse at the european or the world championship, like, oh, who is he?
Speaker 2:yeah, I wish it happened more, though, because when we, when you turn up to a race in the uk, we we all know each other. There's rare, rare times. Now I think we we actually had it in a race back two weeks ago. There was a few people that shot off well quick and I was like who are these? I've never seen these before. It's nice to see, it's nice to see new people in the sport.
Speaker 3:Uh, and always hope they burned up yeah, they did, they did, they did but still, I like the competition. Yeah, I like to try new things and see the world.
Speaker 2:Like I said, enjoy yourself well, well, we have what we have. One last thing that we want we always do with our guests or when they come onto our podcast and we this is where I hand that over to mo, because this is the most moment to to go through, my moment to shine your shine.
Speaker 4:Um right. So we every guest that comes on gets what we call an accountability card, which is basically I don't know if you've done any kind of trading card games like pokemon or anything like that or played any FIFA Ultimate team, but it's basically like that. So let me, I'm just going to share my screen real quickly. So this is your accountability card.
Speaker 3:Nice Ooh.
Speaker 1:There it is.
Speaker 4:This is a big card for us, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, you are our highest ranked card so far. So this is you've, uh, you've beat leon.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that's, that's a big, that's a big moment. I think, yeah, you've, we can. You can compare yourself to leon after, after this, but yeah you're being bracken, you're beating be bracken cracker yeah, he was beating me.
Speaker 3:I'm very happy with that. One didn't with pokemon. They were like uh, how do you say tintling?
Speaker 2:oh, yeah, yeah, you're a shiny, yeah, yeah, if this was real, you'd be definitely sure yeah, I love the picture.
Speaker 3:It's crazy. One of the nicest pictures that was after the trifecta in greece yeah, you look like you're happy with your result there I was so happy. It was like not the weather we expect for greece. So it was raining like crazy, we had mud everywhere for 22k and was so slippery I did like the third best time there just because of the. The heat was gone and, uh, the wet weather, the muddy, yeah, definitely, definitely helps the colder countries.
Speaker 4:It's uh, we're like that in the uk, since it gets a bit colder. It's a it's our time to shine a little bit more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wet, miserable weather, put us in that.
Speaker 4:Right. So we're going to go through the stats of the card, just so you can kind of see what we're putting you at. And obviously this is a very high card. So you've got some very high stats, some of our best stats. But we'll go through it so you can argue your case. If you think anything needs to be less or more, it doesn't mean it will change. It probably won't change. We're quite stubborn, um, but you will give you the platform to argue. So speed, we've got you at a 97. So you're, yeah, out of 197, you're not, obviously, 100. We don't really like to give out 100. So you're, you're not quite there, but that's correct, because there are some athletes faster.
Speaker 3:I was, uh, I am strong at obstacles, so that's quite high, but it's quite good you're not gonna you're not gonna argue that it's too good.
Speaker 4:It's too good so next, we've got your agility, so how agile, and you are moving through obstacles and all these are obstacle related as well. So we're not talking like football agility or anything like that, it's more just like you on the obstacle course, um, and we've got you at a at 97, so yeah, again, quite a high stat. Yeah, I've seen you race.
Speaker 3:You move well yeah, I think if you compare it with the, with the speed it's I am. I am higher in ability than speed because um of the optical quickness and powerful moments, especially if you compare with the faster runner. But yeah, it's all right, it's all right.
Speaker 4:Are you saying we should?
Speaker 3:knock your speed down a bit. Is that what you're telling us?
Speaker 2:Yes, You're not meant to argue for us to lower your stats.
Speaker 1:The trouble is, you can't get any. Well, you can get higher, but yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah if. I'm going higher, then it's like Then it's Leon territory on the short course and I'm not up to that. But I'm going to be honest, leon is faster on obstacles.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know, he's just smaller, isn't he? It's just easier for him, he just looks quicker.
Speaker 3:Then we're going to look at Jonas Jonas Rescher. He's the same height but he's stronger, and I think he's going faster through obstacles.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's smooth. But then there's a difference. You know what it's like when you watch people on obstacles Some people look fast but are fast, and then some people look slow but are fast as well. It's because they're smooth.
Speaker 3:Smooth just makes a difference yeah, yeah, actually, yeah yeah, no, no, did you say that it's a great point? It's a great point if the obstacle is longer, more like survival you have here in netherlands, then I'm gonna be way smoother than the people was. A lot of strength, so learning through it, yeah yeah, exactly a good point right.
Speaker 4:So your next one is your compromised running, so your ability to like run and do the obstacles um and run after the obstacles. And I've got this as one of your well, your highest stat, because I think mixing the obstacles and the running together, that's something you do very well and, yeah, you've mastered the art of that. So 98 for that one that's when.
Speaker 3:I'm very happy that you mentioned it also, because I'm a good interval athlete, a good mountain biker, but I'm way worse in 21k flat running at the same pace or with the road bike going like 40, 50k at a certain speed. So actually, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 4:Nice. So that kind of links us to our next stat, which is your endurance. So your run endurance. And now this is one of your lower stats. We've got you at 93, so getting a little bit lower, it's still good. Obviously, you've done well in Beasts like Spartan Be beasts and longer races, um.
Speaker 3:So it's still not low, but it's not your highest stat no, exactly, and especially if you look at the results of 23 and 24, I never thought I was going to get a podium place at a world championship in Belgium and at the European championship in Italy for the short. So yeah, nice, well done.
Speaker 4:Next one is your power. So we've got you at 95. So, kind of like you said, you're not like a Leon where you're exploding all the time for obstacles and being really, really quick and fast-paced, but you're always smooth and efficient.
Speaker 3:So, it's again a a little bit lower, but it's still not low, still a, it's still quite powerful.
Speaker 4:Yeah, not gonna argue I like this.
Speaker 1:This is good, this is easy um.
Speaker 4:So your next one is your technical ability on obstacles, and again we've got this quite high, so 97 um again. I don't know if you want to argue that one, but no, you're, you're pretty technical I love the low rigs.
Speaker 1:I love when you have to to use your whole body to get through it and not only hanging, and powerful biceps and shoulders and push your way through it I love the technicalness it's fun when you get to work out how your body needs to move through things, because you don't get that in a lot of other sports where you've got to do it at pace. So when you're like going through technical stuff and you have to like just work out, oh there's a better way of doing it, or there's another way of doing it, or because it's not about using strength to get through obstacles, it is about using technical ability.
Speaker 2:Yeah, ships we said sorry, oh, we just said. We said in the past that, um, when, when races, just put monkey bars in and say it's an obstacle course race, it's not, it's you.
Speaker 3:You need to be doing an obstacle that uses every modality of the body and that they're, they're perfect when that happens and it's not like you can, uh, use your power at every obstacle if you do a long course, a short course, 20 maybe, yes, but actually we talked about it, this one with urban sky. We have a few athletes who do survival and we are going to train sometimes during the year together just to look how the athlete is going through it, even if it's not an elite athlete but a good survival athlete can be way more technical, evolved, and then you can implement it at your technique and see like, oh, I was maybe a half second slower or faster, but way more economic yeah.
Speaker 1:So because when you, when we train this ourselves and like when you get to sort of like the back end of a race, when you're really tired, that's when you need that sort of technical ability to get through the obstacles, because you can't always power yourself through it. So to have a load of tools in the bag where you can just like whack out like a foot lot or put your arm in something, grip something a little differently and just move through it a bit more efficiently, like I say, just gives you so many more options to perform better at a race ships is waiting for me to say this, but he did the smoothest um chicken wing I've ever seen in my life, and there's in the last race we we did.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, it was. It was pretty good ships I know thanks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was raining a lot so I needed I needed to go into the bag and get something out I need to see that one it was, it was, it was good I'll give.
Speaker 2:I'll give him it. I, because usually when you see someone use a technique like a chicken wing, they really hesitate because it's it's done out of desperation. But I've never seen someone do it as like just a smooth, proper, just flowing through the obstacle.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was good you had to do it like this. I was like no, I'm going to give my 100.
Speaker 1:Like this there wasn't any point taking any risks on the obstacle because it was so wet, so I was just like, yeah, just use the ticket nice, nice right.
Speaker 4:Moving on to your next one, which is, uh, stremp. So this is your lowest stat on the card, and when we talk about stremp, we're talking about like heavy carries and things like this. To be honest, I wasn't quite sure what your ability is like on that, but I thought as being so good at obstacles and so a bit more speedier athlete, it might be a bit lower, so we've got you at 90. I hate it.
Speaker 3:It's true, I hate, hate it. I don't like carries at all and the only carry I remember in all those years that I could keep with uh, with the best athletes, is in london at the world championship when I finished third. So I remember going through the forest up and down with with a log carry and we had to go underneath the bars and everything and I could keep up with ryan atkins back then and I was so surprised because I never, never, was able to to keep up with those athletes at all. So, yeah, you're very, very correct with that one give me something to work on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that was very smooth sailing actually.
Speaker 4:actually, I'm happy with that.
Speaker 1:We've done our research.
Speaker 4:Right, and your last stat so this is your special ability, so what you're good at, okay, and it's always 100 because it's your special ability. But we have got podiums, because you just seem to keep finding podiums every race you turn up to. I mean, you can go onto your Instagram and scroll through and it's just podium after podium after podium, and over a lot of years as well, you've been very consistent, so your special ability is finding a podium yeah, happy that one, seriously happy with that one.
Speaker 3:And it's true, it crazy. And I don't know, I don't know how the mental strength the last case. Just keep up, don't take the pace from the front, just don't make your head crazy in the race. You're going to get there and in the end it's like always a little sprint. It's crazy when we do intervals with some athletes here that are way faster than me. When you finished, you always like I could do one more. And that's with the race also. You always, you have, you have more in yourself. It's always possible. Only some people are going all out during the whole race. But no, it's.
Speaker 3:It's crazy, uh, how to finish well every time, yeah yeah, you definitely found that way, yeah and I'm happy with that one because this will bring me up everywhere, uh, bring me like a lot of uh invitations and uh, uh reckoning recognition in the sport also. So, yeah, I don't don't know how many podiums I'm going. To be honest, I have a box with all my medals and everything I had before, like a guard rope with all my trophies. It was getting out of hand. So since I moved, it's like in the boxes and I don't remember everything.
Speaker 1:It's crazy my, I, my, my partner, my girlfriend or fiance uh, she's, uh, she's a good level golfer right, and basically everywhere around the house there's trophies and medals and everything and it puts everything I've got to shame.
Speaker 3:It's just like everywhere, yeah but just sort of forget it. Also, if you see too much, and then all the, all the sides, if you have only a few of them like important, I think it's give a lot more value to it, and then, but I understand what you mean. Only I was living alone so I had nobody else to compete with in the host. Nice card, thank you very much for that one.
Speaker 2:What's the final score Mo?
Speaker 4:You're a 97 overall rating. You're our highest card so far, deservedly, with, obviously, the career you've had. We also want this to get higher. Next time we speak to you I want to try and see what we've done, what you've had, but uh, but yeah, we also want this to get higher.
Speaker 3:So next time we speak to you I want to try and see what we've done, what you've changed. I can still get up.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, okay, okay, oh yeah everyone gets a chance to come back onto the podcast and improve their card. This is your accountability card, so we want to make sure that your uh, your, your recovery and training keeps going. We want, we want to. I want to be in the european championships watching the elites and you um doing the best uh carry ever.
Speaker 3:That's what we want to see gonna work on that one especially great great great, thanks guys.
Speaker 2:No, thank you um. Is there anything else? You guys got mo ships?
Speaker 4:no, that's, that's all for me.
Speaker 1:I think we've done quite well today yeah, I actually really enjoyed, really enjoyed, having you on actually and, yeah, really good one, really good to listen to, like your stories, and I think we've got so much more we could actually talk about. There's so much more things that you've done over the past years and years and years that we could talk for ages, but no, I've really enjoyed that.
Speaker 3:Me too, and, yeah, I reckon that we can talk a lot. We can go on and go on. So it's good for now and another time. We saved some things to say and I want to thank you all three very, very much for having me.
Speaker 2:It was nice to to knowing you and, uh, hoping to see you soon yeah, portugal, definitely we'll see you in portugal and yeah, thank you so much coming on and and also just like all the best for the recovery. Like it's just it is incredible to see that you're back and I just maybe you don't sit hear it enough, because obviously the sport is so small, but we, we follow everyone's careers, we're very passionate about the sport and it's good to see an athlete like yourself back into it after such a well, it was severe injury, so, yeah, thank you very much, man.
Speaker 3:I wish you all a lot of luck in the tours in Sweden next week. Do it well and have fun. Keep the fun.
Speaker 1:Where can people find you on social media if they want to follow your stories and follow your training like we do?
Speaker 3:Training-wise, I don't post a lot lately, but I'm going gonna be more like media ish in a few next months. But it's uh tibo ocr um on instagram and uh tibo the busher, I think, on facebook, and for the rest I don't have any media, uh social media. I try to have some tiktok things, but don't bother with that, that's for the youngsters. It's not my generation. I just wanted to say.
Speaker 1:So we're like Darren's on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I try to Try to keep us relevant. Great, great Cool.
Speaker 3:No, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll leave it there and yeah, we'll see you soon. And we'll leave it there and yeah, we'll see you. See you soon and thank you for everyone listening see you later, people see you later see you later. Bye.
