Accountability Corner
Embark on an adventure with Darren, Morgan, and Chris, the dynamic trio steering the ship at "Accountability Corner." As passionate OCR enthusiasts, they're on a mission to share their expertise and enthusiasm for obstacle course racing with the world. From sharing insider tips on overcoming training plateaus to demystifying the complexities of race registration and gear selection, no stone is left unturned. Whether you're a seasoned competitor hungry for fresh perspectives or a newcomer eager to dip your toes into the muddy waters of OCR, these hosts are here to guide you every step of the way. Join them as they peel back the curtain on the electrifying world of OCR, revealing stories of triumph, camaraderie, and boundless adventure.
Don't miss out – tune in and discover why OCR is capturing hearts and minds around the globe!
Accountability Corner
#51: What Actually Makes You Better? Find Your Why!
Ever wondered what separates elite OCR athletes from weekend warriors? It's not just about doing more burpees or running faster—it's about understanding the science and purpose behind every workout.
In this revealing episode, Morgan, Chris, and Darren pull back the curtain on their training evolution, from their early days of random woodland workouts to their current structured approaches. The conversation takes fascinating turns as they debate the differences between tempo and threshold running, share their week-by-week training schedules, and discover that what feels challenging isn't always what drives improvement.
"The workouts I thought were changing me versus the workouts that actually changed me," Morgan reflects, highlighting how his perception of effective training shifted dramatically over time. Meanwhile, Chris advocates for simplicity with his "long run, fast run, and mixed run" approach, while Darren reveals how tempo runs—maintaining "uncomfortably comfortable" pace—transformed his racing.
Whether you're training for your first Spartan Sprint or gunning for OCR World Championships, this episode offers practical insights into training structure, workout selection, and most importantly, understanding the "why" behind each session. The hosts' candid admissions about confusion, overtraining, and misunderstood terminology make this an accessible, relatable deep-dive into OCR training philosophy.
By the end, you'll understand why Morgan believes "if you know the why behind your workouts, you should be in a very good place"—and how finding purpose in training creates both accountability and results in obstacle course racing.
Welcome to the Accountability Corner, where we talk about everything obstacle course racing, from staying disciplined in training, affording the sport, signing up for your first race and, more importantly, how the sport is growing around the world, with your hosts Morgan Maxwell, chris Shipley and Darren Martin.
Speaker 2:Come on, Ships. You're on. Bring me energy. Passion, More energy, more passion. Go Three, two, one. You're on. What episode are passion, More energy, more passion. Go 3, 2, 1. You're on.
Speaker 1:What episode are we first? 51. It's Area 51 and we are here with Accountability Corner. We are bringing conspiracies, we're bringing aliens and we're bringing fast-tracked bumblebees.
Speaker 2:People don't know. Sometimes we record these episodes in advance, maybe a little bit out of date. When Mo was saying he was going to win the British Champs how did that go?
Speaker 3:Let's just move on from that subject, Okay cool.
Speaker 2:Cut that one out. Next one we're going to move to saying that this one is actually. This episode is well up to date. We're cutting this fine to get this out, so this is going to be perfect for people that want to hear up-to-date life updates from Shipley. Go Injury update. Give me an injury update. What injury?
Speaker 1:Exactly. I'm not talking about injuries anymore. It's all about positivity. No injuries, no complaining, no, what's the other word I'm looking for? Talking crap about crap. I'm all positivity these days no negative thoughts.
Speaker 2:He's bringing positivity, he's bringing passion and he's bringing the ocr long run back oh yes, do you know what?
Speaker 1:we was there doing one of them last weekend, wasn't we?
Speaker 2:we were did one.
Speaker 1:I just want to apologize to everyone, though, who was there witnessing that. Sorry that we don't say hello to anyone while we're doing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a bit of focus happens when you yeah, we felt quite well.
Speaker 1:I felt quite bad as I left because I thought, well, I haven't actually said hello to many people, but I think a lot of people know that we like to train on our own sometimes and I think when you've got some work to do, it's nice to just get in the zone and just get the work done and just try and not have any distractions. But I was keeping a keen eye on everyone out there that day and everyone's looking pretty sharp. Everyone's looking pretty strong, sharp.
Speaker 2:Mo give us an update on your training.
Speaker 3:My training's going quite well. I'm feeling pretty good. My running's been the focus, as we've talked about before it's a bit boring now, mo, you keep talking about. I haven't really touched any obstacles well, I look to the rest of my season and I don't really need to touch any obstacles for a while. So I don't think I'm going to. I think I'm just going to pretend to not even know what OCR is for a bit.
Speaker 1:You know, life is one big obstacle.
Speaker 3:Exactly so. That's where I'm getting my training in Life.
Speaker 1:Span that round. You did, didn't you?
Speaker 2:How is life? Don't talk to me about running we. How is life? How's not? Don't talk to me about running. We know running's going. How's life, uh, in sheffield? We actually haven't had a sheffield update in a while. Right wait there, pause and go sheffield update sheffield, update sheffield.
Speaker 3:Oh, with sheffield's been a bit all over the shop recently. I've actually spent too much time in Sheffield. I've been travelling around a lot, but every time I've been in Sheffield we've had a lot of rain, which has not been that enjoyable, to be honest, because every single run I've been soaked.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask how Sheffield is in the summer.
Speaker 3:Well, it was really warm and then now it's really rainy. So my run yesterday, I was literally proper like a drowned rat. It wasn't raining when I started, so I went out in shorts and T-shirt. I came back and my clothes were all stuck to me. I was not enjoying life.
Speaker 1:You just weren't sweating.
Speaker 3:It was probably a mixture. It was a bit of sweat and a bit of rain. You're ginger. Ginger, you definitely sweat. I sweat a lot, especially on these hills. I walk out my door and even if I'm not running, I'm sweating, but yeah.
Speaker 2:Sheffield's good. That's the Sheffield update. It's raining and it's sweaty. Raining and sweaty come to.
Speaker 3:Sheffield, it's raining and it's sweaty. Raining and sweaty. Come to Sheffield, the city of rain and sweat Perfect.
Speaker 1:That's why the full Monty was born there. Yeah, they had to get their clothes off, exactly.
Speaker 2:That was implied, but I thought I'd just carry that on for you.
Speaker 3:Can I segue onto potentially the topic of the episode and potentially the topic of the episode.
Speaker 2:We don't know yet potentially the topic.
Speaker 3:It should be the topic, but who knows, it's the boys only episode again, so this could go either way. Um, talk to me about your ocr long run. I want specifics. What? What was the session, how far? What did you do? Why was you so laser focused?
Speaker 1:It's just because it was. Well, it's actually the first OCR long run I've had this year. So I just wanted to get a nice long running, so nothing too heavy on the heart rate, I guess, just nice and easy, like you would do your Sunday long run. And I wanted to get a lot of fatigue in my arms with a little jogging afterwards. So every time I was hitting an obstacle there was a lot of arm stuff, because we've got the Euros coming up and then I wanted to just get back into running afterwards. So a lot of fatigue, get tired. Then you can work on making mistakes when you're tired and just keep running after that. So you're tired and just keep running after that. So you're always moving, always doing things, finding out where you might need to take a little bit of recovery and that on the, on the, the arm obstacles and that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's good, that makes sense. Yeah, and this, this is a like a little little prelude into what we're actually going to talk about more in detail, probably towards the end, actually. So you'll get to. But the OCR long run has adapted and changed for me. So the reason being is that I went to the PT barn to get onto obstacles that I haven't seen in a while, so that I wasn't familiar with, and I wanted to test myself on unfamiliar ground at a higher heart rate to see, to reenact the race of the European Championships, but to do that in a way that I can then get a long session out of it.
Speaker 2:I wasn't just going to go around at a consistent pace for an hour and a half. I wanted to warm up, make sure mobility was done, and then I did 10 minutes on threshold and then five minutes off. Five minutes off in terms of, like, just running around doing obstacles slowly and keeping the heart rate back down to recovery sort of heart rate, easy heart rate, and then going back into 10 minutes, and I did five things, four or five times doing that and that was. That was decent. It made sure I got. I got the workload in without over fatiguing myself, if that makes sense sense I'd call that no so you know, what your heart rate peaked at on the higher end.
Speaker 2:Yeah, probably in the 165, so I wanted to make sure it was in the 160s when I was doing that 10 minutes yeah nice, you're really attacking obstacles in that higher zone.
Speaker 3:I think that's because originally when we were doing ocCR long runs, sometimes it would just be a case of 130s, maybe 140s when you're jumping around, but just going through obstacles and getting them to the requirements of what you're training for, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see, I think that's OCR threshold. It's a completely different cloth of the silk. Yeah, it's kind of like a of the silk, so you're not working out within a workout. Yeah, you're still getting the distance, but you're doing more of a fresh old session bit like, uh, what those ones we do in running sometimes where it's like a fart lick, a fart lick?
Speaker 2:yeah, yes, fart like ocr yeah, a flow yeah yeah a flock, a flock, a flock.
Speaker 1:So I did a flock.
Speaker 1:You did a flock, but it's getting the training in that you need to do because you're a little bit ahead in your training than I am. So you want to get a bit more sharpness in because you can handle it a bit more, whereas I'm still a bit behind. So I just want to get a bit more sharpness in because you can handle it a bit more, whereas I'm still a bit behind. So I just want to still get that endurance side of things. I don't want to be pushing it too much, because if I was to do that workout that you did, I would take longer to recover from it and then I'd be like not as well going into the next week as you would be, because you're a bit fitter than I am at the moment. Yeah, and do you?
Speaker 2:know? Do you know what More? And do you know what? Do you know what more? The more. The more important thing about that workout wasn't necessarily the physical aspects of it. It was the mental preparedness of it, to make sure that I knew what my body was capable of at a higher heart rate and I knew what I'm physically able to do when I jump into obstacles. It was being. It was just, I just wanted a bit of confidence. Stop, basically stop slowing down when I get to an obstacle and stop, stop not speeding up when I get out of an obstacle, because you're only going to keep that high heart rate if you're going in fast and coming out fast. I would actually say that most 10 times out of 10, my heart rate was dropping when I was on the obstacle so, yeah, usually it does, because you relax a little bit then because you know that's the time to recover.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's nice, and you can mix it up as well. Sometimes, later on in the season or if I'm a bit fitter, I do a similar thing, but instead of doing well, it's almost the same, but I might do like a 3k on one session or I might do like just 1k hard and then the rest of it along.
Speaker 2:So you're getting still that same same sort of working hard moments in it yeah, but, mo, you've probably you've opened us up into this topic then, because I think we've talked about in the past. I'm trying to, like some we've we tried to figure out what we can talk about today in terms of training, but I feel like we do have a topic. It's just we've talked about a lot in the past. We talked with dave about how ocCR training has adapted over the years and how people train for it. Now we've talked about like the inner voice and mental preparedness for a race and then how to really tell the monkey to shut up and just keep going it.
Speaker 2:We've done all of that sort of aspects of training for OCR but we have never really delved into like what was our specific workouts when we were first trying to complete an obstacle course race? And now what is our specific workouts when we're competing at an obstacle course race? Like there's a lot of people out there that are thinking I just need a simple training plan. I've signed up for a tough what's a completion workout, look like for specific to OCR. And then there's the top end of the triangle, which is what we did at the weekend. I would say no, I would say a little bit lower, but kind of getting there because you see Stein and Jesse are doing the exact same workouts, just maybe a little bit faster. Mo, take me back to the day that you thought you was doing a workout that was preparing you to complete an obstacle course race not necessarily compete one and what and get. I want to know details of that workout.
Speaker 3:If so, if someone wants to take the transcript of this podcast and use it, uh well, my first memories as a youth doing workouts that were really specific for OCR.
Speaker 3:So I remember it was probably maybe before the British Champs, the old British Champs we did a workout with Rumble and it wasn wasn't necessarily, it didn't have any running in. So it's not a running workout, which I don't know if that's further than from what we're looking for but we literally just went through exactly the obstacles that were going to be seen at the british champs and kept replicating them, but then kept doing like high heart rate stuff. So we didn't run but we'd do like some burpees or like some like squat jumps, things like that, mountain climbers mixed in with obstacles, but there wasn't any running because at this point it was just in the small barn and we didn't really run that much in between stuff. So that was my first memory of like a specific obstacle session or a specific completion session. Um, but yeah, but I don't know if that, like I say, that's not running base. I don't know if that kind of takes away from what you're asking um, yeah, I think it does.
Speaker 3:My first, the only time I ever remember. So we used to do sessions at the very well, one of the very first centres that Rumble opened or kind of used, which went on Saturday to once a month I think it was the start of every month and that was literally an OCR long run. So you'd, but just you'd run so that the obstacles were in compounds because they used to get like crushed by the cows. So dave built them in like little compounds and you basically run between each compound just doing the obstacles and you just do laps and do as many as you could and actually a non-obstacle version of that, which some people won't know this at all. So thursday nights, originally before we had the barn, we used to go to a local gym.
Speaker 3:We used to have their sports hall and dave would put like tires on the floor and he would put kind of badminton poles with like bamboo across them and like basically loads of makeshift obstacles and we would run around this sports hall for an hour just doing as many laps as we can, just running around the sports hall and going over the jumping over them yeah, so just jumping, crawling, he made some like really weird wacky stuff and it was like quite impressive, considering he was just using things that were in this sportswear cupboard, um, but there would also be like agility ladders and like tires, and but yeah, he used to just run, basically run around for an hour just doing the course you know it takes, takes me back a bit because back in the day, most people when they were first, if you go right right back so there was three sort of key things that most people were doing to get ready for obstacle races.
Speaker 1:So a lot of people I don't know if you remember, was it british military fitness, yeah, all around the uk so a lot of people were doing that style of obstacle well, that style of training, sort of like boot camp, fitness stuff on field, like pretty much the same as what you was doing, mo, uh, or they were doing like a crossfit wad session that had running in it or, if they're like me, before I did my first spartan. I was literally just going to the woods going for a run, but in the run I was just doing some like pull-ups off a tree, doing some burpees, doing some sit-ups, doing some like bear crawly stuff, running up and down like steep hills and just like picking things up and running with it as a workout, which is pretty much similar to what we're doing now. It was just very sort of basic yeah, you're, you're kind of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I remember doing the same thing. It's just like running around a field and just doing some burpees and then running again. It's the most simplistic form of OCR, isn't it? Flushing blood from legs to upper body and then running. Flushing blood from legs to upper body, then running. No grip, strength, no heavy carries, it's just blood shunting. That's all you were doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just running, but with movement.
Speaker 2:Being compromised in different modalities.
Speaker 1:yeah, I don't even think it really means compromise. I think it just means running and doing stuff. Yeah, you know doing something other than running. It's like you could probably get away with just saying it's doing rugby or something. It's doing rollerblading or something. It's's doing rugby or something it's doing like rollerblading or something it's doing skateboarding or something. It's just moving a bit more natural, I suppose, making it not just that one plane of motion. You're just.
Speaker 2:You're basically just moving what's your what's your favorite workout that does that ships?
Speaker 1:so what back in the day? So back in the day it would have been just that going out for a run in the woods, because you know, one, you're going out for a run in the woods, two, you're just doing some other stuff, so, like it's basically just a more fun trail run yeah, with some pull-ups and lunges, and just keep running anything. It just takes it away from running. Jump over a few you know, jump over a few fences. Run up a hill a bit steeper. Carry something you know basic as hell.
Speaker 3:The one thing I remember doing a lot which is quite similar to that, actually, and talk about like things I used to do is I used to literally go through like CrossFit workouts Murph was a big one for me but go through crossfit workouts with running in, yeah, and then I would like, just I'd like, right, what's my workout today? And then I just go for and scroll through crossfit workouts that had running in, um, and I used I did that all the way up until lockdown.
Speaker 3:I was still doing that, like just to randomly throw these workouts in and yeah, they're always a great one, like it's like that hit workout in it well, I'd always focus on the ones that had the most running in, because sometimes there was only like 100 meters or 200 meters, so I was always looking for like the 400s, the 800s or like a murph or it's a mile yeah, you could always I mean sometimes I went through some of them workouts but then just changed things like ergs or like bikes and things like fan bike or calorie things and just be like, right, just gonna run two minutes, three minutes, five minutes or just run for a run.
Speaker 1:In between it you could usually like run, lift up a bar, do goblet, squats, anything like that. Darren like he likes to hit workout exactly the same thing.
Speaker 2:I I literally just just did hit workouts when I was starting to to want to compete in obstacle course racing. I was over training like anything.
Speaker 1:I think the majority of people that get into obstacle racing back then were the people that were doing hitIT workouts and then it sort of came off of that that it was coming into like, ah, I'm doing these workouts, I love like climbing around and that's what got people into. It's probably the same reason what keeps people into like high rocks now.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's that same thing.
Speaker 2:I've got a workout here, all of these ones. Dave took off me when he started training me because he said I'm just over-training. And I agree now. But I was doing this workout here twice a week, which was on the treadmill, a two-minute run at 7.5 miles per hour, jumping off, doing 10 burpees, then doing five bear complexes, which, if no one knows what bear complexes, it's like a barbell. You do, you do like a snatch, then a military press, then a squat and then you put it back down, you do the whole shebang, do that five times, then doing jumping lunges 10 times, then doing a kettlebell deadlift 10 times, then doing a kettlebell carry and then doing a wide grip pull-ups, then doing leg raises and then jumping back on the treadmill for two minutes to do that run. And I did that four times.
Speaker 1:That's horrible, but I love, I used to love that stuff because I've got a little black book somewhere that's got loads of little workouts that I've just come up with exactly like that yeah, they're so good and they to have like literally just pick out now and again yeah, but you can just come up with something like that so easy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, you could look around your bedroom. You could find like 10 things in your bedroom. Right, this is not no equipment based at all. Right, I'm going to look around right now. Okay, go, go on, I want to find 10 things right, book right. You could get two books, stepovers or step-ups or taps or something right. I'm quite lucky because I've got a pull-up bar. So pull-ups, there you go. Then you could just do press-ups, you could do what they're called like. You know, those split lunge, jumping split lunge thingies.
Speaker 2:Ice skaters, what about you running?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you could do ice skaters on the spot, you could run on the spot, you could do pretend skipping. You could do so much stuff in like a six-by-six area that will get you like a hit workout, which actually helps for OCR, what's that app that they used to be? Um, andrea was sponsored by it and Jesse used to use it Freeletics.
Speaker 2:Was it Freeletics? Yeah, they do calisthenics workouts. Yeah, but it was like a high heart rate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it basically, I think the thing that they came up was like yeah, you all you needed is six by six for of room.
Speaker 2:Do you reckon if you had, if you just did these workouts you'd be?
Speaker 3:you'd be a completer in ocr you could even be yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah I think the main question, though, to ask just to shift away from this is how many of that's them style workouts do you do now? None, and then my follow-up. My follow-up to that is how much of a better OCR athlete are you now? 10 times better, um?
Speaker 2:but I would say I'm a 10 times better. Um, but I would say I'm a 10 times better competitor. But if I just wanted to exercise and feel good and be healthy and turn up to a race, enjoy it and be able to complete it, I could just carry on doing those circuits. Yeah, agreed, um, the only caveat to that is that I still do these circuits, but only like 10 minutes at the end of my main main strength and conditioning sessions now, which we can go into more detail, because I do want to do to go into like the nitty gritty of like, what workouts have changed us. Maybe that's the question, maybe maybe that is the question. Like Mo, what, what workout changed you as an athlete? What was the time that you thought I'm training, I'm competing as an ocr athlete, and give us the details of that workout?
Speaker 3:there was kind of a two-part answer to that for me well, because that's probably the answer to the question.
Speaker 3:Well, there's the answer to the question, which is what actually probably did change me, and then the answer to the question of what I thought was changing me. And the thing that was definitely changing me without me realizing and I probably have in the past neglected, which has been a bit different this year is just the standard long run. Like we're talking zone two, potentially maybe a little bit of a workout in there, but normally just zone to run in for nine minutes or more, like that is the one thing I think as an athlete has built my engine and changed me no end and I don't necessarily think when I'm doing that I've never thought, oh, this is the thing that is going to make the difference, because it's just kind of easy. Running seven and a half eight minute mile pace doesn't really feel too hard, just feels like you're just running for a long time and to me that's boring. But, like I say, that's probably changed me the most.
Speaker 3:The workouts that I used to think would change me the most, or would probably still do, is my fartlek sessions. I love a fartlek um and intervals. I think they're the ones in the moment I feel like, yeah, I'm really. I'm earning my place at the top today what?
Speaker 2:what kind of interval sessions were you doing? Like the details of those?
Speaker 3:um. So if we talk about past, I used to do a lot of like 10 by or 12 by 400s and um like 10 or 8 by 800s. That'd be like a standard every week. There would be something like that in my training, and then the main ones, like I say, fartlex. I used to do so many fartlex explain the fartlex uh, so mine used to be.
Speaker 3:I'd have to get the paces up and they're quite similar. I still use a lot of fartlex now because I think for ocCR they could possibly be one of the best bang for your buck workouts, especially on weeks where you don't want to be as fatigued. It depends on what you do, obviously, but on a deload week, especially like a fartlek. But the one I used to love and I did it the other day actually is 30 by 30, so 30 seconds like hard, 30 seconds easy. Then I'd go to one minute moderate, so not hard, and then one minute easy, and then I'd do 90 seconds hard, 90 seconds easy, and then I'd repeat that four or five times.
Speaker 2:I like that you're changing your fartlek. If people know a fart like which is could be called like lamppost running or something like whole school in the past you're usually it's a consistent pace but you're changing it slightly. Yeah, I think of sport.
Speaker 3:I think of a fart like more, just like speed play like just.
Speaker 1:I want to be running the whole time.
Speaker 3:But I just want to be chopping in and out of different paces and getting used to what that feels like, because to me that's what ocr feels like. You go from that slow run in the mud to then go into something really quick because you've, you've now come running the roads and then you're smashing an uphill and then you're doing something else, and I'd always pretty much do them on the trail sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wondered I wondered if, because you lived in milton keynes, that was why you did it like that, because it was more on the roads.
Speaker 3:But no, I didn't realize it was on the. No, I'd always. I'd always do them in the woods pretty much. And then there was like a a kind of farmer fieldy gravelly path actually that used to run near bletchley and that had some road in some gravel and then some bits, so that was a bit more like road running I guess. But either there or I'd do it in the woods no, just just so I go right.
Speaker 2:You do 30 seconds easy, 30 seconds moderate and then 30 seconds hard.
Speaker 3:No. So 30 seconds easy, 30 seconds hard Okay. Then normally one minute moderate, one minute easy again, and then back to 90 seconds or two minutes hard, with a two-minute recovery and then repeat.
Speaker 2:Wow, completely mixed up. I like that and then repeat wow, completely mixed up. I like that. I would never think to do it because my my order and my process driven brain would be wouldn't, wouldn't like the mix up of the paces and the time, but suppose that is obstacle course racing in its entirety, isn't it?
Speaker 3:well, kind of happened by accident, because I was supposed to do a fight like once that Dave prescribed for me. I did it wrong and it was similar to that order and then it felt so much like OCR to me that I was like I need to do this more.
Speaker 1:That's good. That's quite a developed program thing, isn't it? That's a way to fire things out. I've done the workout wrong, but it worked.
Speaker 2:I'm going to carry on doing that, yeah, but the thing is we're saying this workout sounds amazing, but this wasn't the one you think changed you.
Speaker 3:This is when you thought was changing you yeah, this is the one in the moment I thought was changing me, but I don't necessarily. I think I could have done the workout differently and got similar results, or I think it could have been a different style of interval workout or speed workout. I think it played maybe a part in training me just compound interest on training over the years but I don't think that's the workout that actually changes me. I don't think it takes a lot for me to get. This is a. I think this is maybe one thing we should touch on when it comes to workouts. It doesn't take a lot for me to get fast. I can do lots of intervals and sharpen up quite quickly. The one thing I struggle with is my endurance, so I actually need to be running slower and longer more often. Yeah, and that's, I think, what actually changes things for me that it.
Speaker 2:It takes you so long. We've got we've got a caveat, the whole conversation because if you're starting training properly and you're being scripted and you want to compete, it's going to take you a while to figure out how your body reacts to certain exercises and also certain workouts. So don't just yeah, just try it.
Speaker 1:Obviously be consistent, give it a chance, but try different workouts to see what makes, makes you feel good but I think people probably need to realize, though, is, if you ask me that question of, like, what workouts changed me, I would say every workout that I've ever done, the first race that I've had afterwards in the back of my head, I think that workout has made me better, but in reality, that workout hasn't done anything.
Speaker 2:So ships you, you? You answer the same same question, like what workout has? I've even forgotten the question.
Speaker 1:What workout has changed you.
Speaker 2:But then what is what's made you better?
Speaker 3:but mo changed it into a two-parter because, yeah, I kind of yeah, my, I kind of ruined the question.
Speaker 2:It's all right, I had to mo took it as a what mentally made him feel good and what physically made him good yeah well, that's.
Speaker 1:I suppose that's exactly the same, though, because if you get, if you do a workout well, you think, oh yeah, I'm doing this, well, I've nailed it and then you might do these workouts. And then the next time you do a race because I've been scripted, I've been given workouts, and I think this is going to be the thing that's going to make me so much better and then it comes to race day and you go off like a gun out of hell and you run and you think, nope, I'm still the same, but it's getting everything right, it's getting all your workouts right that make you better, not just that one workout, it's just that getting the right workout and doing that one a lot makes you more happy to do that workout, so then you are able to do more of them workouts.
Speaker 2:I'm riddling again, you are riddling and we you're meant to be telling us your workout, what the one that makes you better?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Stop trying to avoid the question. Come on, tell us the workout that makes me better.
Speaker 1:The best, if I was going into a race, would be the ones that sharpen me up the most for that race. Good answer it's true though, so it depends on the race. So the workout that makes me better is all of my workouts doing them all. Are you sure you're not in politics, but it's true though I'm not.
Speaker 3:I kind of get what you're saying. You know what I'm saying. I think and this might be important for the listeners to know I actually do really think as long as you believe in the workout you're doing, it does it's hard to not think it makes you better, even if the workout is a load of shit, like if you physically believe in it and think, oh yeah, this is the thing I think you always, it does kind of make you better because mentally you're better.
Speaker 2:I've found our episode title Make Every Workout a Placebo.
Speaker 3:Workout for placebo.
Speaker 1:But I'll go a little bit further as well. Right? So I do three workouts, right? They're exactly the same, right? The three main workouts that I do throughout the year. I do a long run, which Mo does, which he finds has done him the best. I do a long run, which Mo does, which he finds has done him the best. I do a threshold session and I do a. What else do I do? I guess it's like a strength, no, hang on a minute. A threshold session, which is the fast one, a long one, oh, and a mixed one, which Mo done, which is like the fartlet one. But all I, if you're going to change like you can change them around. You just do exactly the same workout, but you just change either the distance, duration or time between the different bits, but they're all exactly the same. So those three are my best workouts A long one, a fast one and a mixed one. That's made me the best.
Speaker 2:Okay, I want to hear your thoughts, darren. No, I want more. I want to deal with those workouts he doesn't know yeah, long run, right long run.
Speaker 1:It's either ocr long run that's a different long run it's a long run, it's not. It is because that's what's on my long run day. All right, or a fast workout is either a hill session or a threshold session. Could be one mile, repeats could be 1k repeats there we go oh, we've got some details coming out of it.
Speaker 1:That's exactly the same. So my, if it's a threshold session and I'm doing 1k repeats, it'll be exactly the same. So my, if it's a fresh out session and I'm doing 1k repeats, it'll be exactly the same. If I'm doing that as a different workout, but it might be, instead of doing 1k, 1k, it might be 1k, 2k, 1k, 2k, or it might be one mile, one mile, one mile, the, the. What you're getting out of it is exactly the same okay right, I'm gonna.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna ask you different question, ships, because I think this might be the way to get what we're looking for out of you. If you were told you can only do, and I'll give you three, but you can only do, actually no, I'll give you two. You can only do three or two workouts for the rest of your life, right, but your third one is a long runs. Don't worry about that. We've covered long runs, whatever, but two workouts. What are you choosing?
Speaker 1:see I could get away with just two workouts. Yeah, fine. What are they?
Speaker 3:1k repeats and ocr long run perfect we've done the long run.
Speaker 2:I thought the long run wasn't, oh yeah, the long run's done, yeah, you get another ocr long runs in so no, no, no, no, I'll change it.
Speaker 1:Ocr ocr threshold so 1k repeats.
Speaker 2:How many 1k repeats you're?
Speaker 1:doing, uh, anything from 8 to 10. 8 to 10 warm-up cool down yeah, yeah, 15 minute warm-up, 15 minute cool down. Yeah, yeah, 15 minute warm up, 15 minute cool down.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:What's the terrain Doesn't matter.
Speaker 3:Just whatever the race needs, you'll just do it on that terrain, Do whatever yeah.
Speaker 1:What about your, apart from sand? Okay.
Speaker 3:What about?
Speaker 1:you got a sand race coming up, I still wouldn't do it. No, no one wants to do 1k repeats on sand.
Speaker 3:That's that does sound horrible. Yeah, that sounds miserable. Okay, ocr threshold what does that look like?
Speaker 2:that'd be 1k repeats with obstacles so basically you're doing two 1K repeats sessions a week.
Speaker 3:Is your effort level different in each?
Speaker 1:Yes, because the obstacles, they'd be obstacles, and do you know what? The only thing I'd change with that, though, with them two workouts is recovery time.
Speaker 2:Elaborate anything I'd change.
Speaker 1:With that, though them to work out? Is recovery time elaborate? It'd be longer or shorter. If I was working really hard and I needed to take a longer recovery, I'd take longer, up to like two or three minutes okay, but if I wanted to keep it really sharp, I'd only do like one minute. How simple is that. See, don't need much.
Speaker 2:There's quite a lot in that that I don't think you're opening up too much about here.
Speaker 1:But you also don't need to complicate things. No, you don't, which is probably where you're going to go with your one. No, I don't, which is probably where you're gonna go with your one.
Speaker 2:No, I don't complicate anything, I'm a simple guy myself. I just I just want to do too much work. That's my issue. Well, it was until I became scripted, so yeah, should we ask you the same question down? Just?
Speaker 2:you don't go on a tangent okay, right, so I'm gonna ask you really quickly, with specifics. The obstacles where I feel that I'm an absolute monster are always going to be the one I just literally said like workouts where you're lifting heavy shit, you're running hard, lifting heavy shit, running hard. So that could be like a WOD, where you're running for 800 meters, then coming back doing burpees, doing lunges, doing some heavy carries, then you're going back running 800 meters and you're doing that for like 10 times. Love it. But, as we all know, that doesn't move the needle for me to make me a better obstacle course racer. That just makes me feel fit and strong and good. The one thing that has moved my needle for obstacle course racing is the tempo run. Don't know if you guys were going to. Yeah, it's going to go in there.
Speaker 3:That's on my list. That does hit my list, yeah.
Speaker 2:Ships. Looks like he's frozen no, no, or he's just very interested no, no. Uh, temp when I first was scripting my own training, I never really knew what a tempo run was or the concept of it, or what you actually do to to actually do it correctly. And when, now that I'm like six, six years into being scripted and training properly, the tempo run isn't like I hate it but I love it. I don't like doing them because I know that I need to go out there and work hard when it's not a race explain your tempo run, then elaborate on it okay, right, so pretend my tempo runs range from six miles to maybe eight miles.
Speaker 2:I'll be warming up um, maybe like a mile to two miles before it, and then I'll hit six miles of a given race, of given pace, not a heart rate. So my pace might be range from, say, a six to a 620 minute mile and I get I get quite a wide berth of of um time there, which is good for me to be able to feel comfortable in it. And all that I practice in a tempo is race being uncomfortably comfortable and making sure that I can actually finish at the same pace. So I'm consistent within it. That's what I'm practicing, yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, you're the coach. What's the difference between tempo and threshold?
Speaker 3:then Tempo well, your heart rate would be lower. Your pace would probably well should be slower. If you've done it right.
Speaker 1:Maybe I'll get confused with tempo and threshold?
Speaker 3:Yeah, potentially. So you're not going to that kind of threshold? Yeah, potentially, so you're not going to that top end range. You're kind of just below that. So your heart rate wise for me. When I do a tempo, I'm looking between 160 170. I thought that was always threshold 170 might be a little bit higher, but definitely above 160.
Speaker 2:Threshold's slightly higher, so you're kind of almost buffering into your lactate threshold.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're really top end yeah.
Speaker 1:But can't you get that with doing a six-minute tempo then yeah you could. So then you are going into threshold.
Speaker 2:So six minute tempo, then yeah, so then you are going into threshold, potentially, if you're pacing it wrong or you've over done it at the beginning.
Speaker 1:But if it's long, like six minutes or how long do you do it? Six miles, six miles. Surely, towards the end of that you're reaching threshold.
Speaker 2:No, because you should be having a consistent pace If you're fit and you've been training it enough. That's what I'm training to be is to keep a consistent heart rate for the whole time.
Speaker 3:To keep it simple, I think if you think about tempos being slower than your threshold, sessions like almost tempo would be half marathon pace, maybe 10 mile pace, maybe 10K pacek pace I guess depends on what you're working out is for um, and then fresher will be more like 5k pace, to really oversimplify it. That's not exactly how it works, but I mean you can talk about lactate zones as well, like you got, like like you got. Now that's not going to, but I feel like to really just oversimplify it and again, I'll probably hate myself when I look at this back, but I think think about your tempos as being that little bit slower and your threshold is being a little bit quicker that just shows how confusing it all is.
Speaker 2:Sorry to take you off on that, darren carry on with where you are it's all right, yeah, just that that's one thing that will forever make me better obstacle course racer, which is it's not, it has no obstacles in it at all. Uh, it is the tempo run, like, because it's. I find it so confusing, but then it it. It makes me fully understand my body's capabilities to keep a certain pace and also to control myself, control my breathing, stay calm at a pace that's uncomfortable, and that's what obstacle course racing is completely is uncomfortable and it is that controlled, uncomfortable?
Speaker 3:that's what I like about tempo. It's not. You're not going so fast where it's just like you're trying to PB the six-mile tempo. It should be controlled and you should feel like this hurts. But I'm in control, not this hurts and I've lost all hope.
Speaker 2:Do you know? The worst thing about them, though, mo, is that I always go into mentality as like it's a tempo. If it starts well, I possibly uh, pb my six mile, but then again, that's just my mind works because, because obviously you're, you're, you're, you're on the cusp of that pace that could possibly pb, but you need to stay under it, underneath it yeah, I think that's why I always, when I do this sort of thing now I don't separate my warm-up, okay, so I don't really have a sense of what the time's gonna be.
Speaker 3:So it's like, if you feel like you might be close I mean, to be fair, nowadays I'm pretty dialed with my tempo, so I'm not. I shouldn't really be. If I've done it right, I shouldn't really be close to pbn, but I know what you mean. Then days that you're feeling good and everything's flowing, it's like, oh, this could be a day here it could be.
Speaker 2:Oh, I could pick this up a little bit, we could. We could do a nice 10 miler.
Speaker 3:This could look good on the watch when uh shipley stalks me on strava but then you know you get to mile five and you're like I've got a mile left and I feel like I'm going to throw up. I've absolutely fucked it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've stopped many times, two miles before six miles or a mile before six miles. I've messed it up more times than I've got the tempo right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's where the control element comes in. Yeah, it's finding that element of. I think that's why in the beginning, especially in the beginning, especially in the beginning stages, I'd I would throw heart rate out the window especially when you're first starting to train, because you're not always fit enough to really get to like the correct zones and I would just focus on pace and I would use like half marathon pace or 10k pace, but not 10k for a, for a six mile. I'd do half marathon or marathon.
Speaker 1:Let's simplify this let's simplify this for everyone, because I think I've been calling tempo threshold for the last seven years. Right, it sounds like that's the same sort of thing that I think. So let's just give people a feeling as opposed to a name, because there's nothing in a name, because you can get that wrong, like I clearly must have. So what feeling is this that you want to go for? Because it seems like we're all doing the same. We're doing the same. The one that we think is getting us the best that we get out of it, or the real bang for its buck. Workout is all the same, but, apart from you guys, I've called it something different. So how does that feel in the moment?
Speaker 2:so shall I go or you go? Yeah, go for it. My, my idea of tempo is that something that's sustainably hard.
Speaker 1:It's, that's it, sustainably hard so my old down at the old rodent club right, they used to use a similar term comfortably hard yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:My threshold is you're gonna burn. At one point you feel like something's. If something will burn up, like now, there's your legs there is.
Speaker 1:There must be such a fine line. I suppose, especially if you're starting, or I suppose even if you've been doing it for quite a while, that's must be the line between them two. The crossover, the difference between them must be so minute, and it is because it doesn't take a lot for you to go from being comfortably hard to burnt out.
Speaker 2:Depends on what mileage you're doing Well, does it?
Speaker 3:It's effort, yeah, I think the thing that separates it is, I mean, the, the thing that's like the gray area is that everyone gets their tempos wrong and that's why it blurs it like if you're doing correct tempo you shouldn't cross that line. That's why I always think, actually, maybe take it back a notch rather than take it forward a notch, so like, say, you could probably temper it I don't know 6, 30s, maybe take it to 650s, just so that you don't straddle that line too much and you can get more quality out of your session that's why I think, where I do my long sessions, it keeps you in that tempo because, yeah, I've got 10 reps to do, so I stay within that because I know I've got to complete 10 reps, yeah you're doing intervals, though yeah, but you can do it with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you're still not going into the threshold, then, because you want to complete 10 reps at race pace?
Speaker 2:yeah, you're not going into like true lactate threshold yeah, but with that rest you're allowing yourself to exert. It's one minute rest, yeah, so you're giving your body rest enough that you can actually exert more and, on the thing, go for a higher pace. Yeah, then that's where it gets really blurry within fresh, within tempo base.
Speaker 1:So are we? So I would keep, I would keep them separate.
Speaker 3:I would think interval training, interval training and then prescribe okay for this interval. I want it to feel like this I want it to feel at race pace, or I want to be beyond race pace and then keep your tempo run different. This is going to be a longer sustained effort at a higher pace than I'd normally do my easy runs so if I was going to do so, go out for 50 minutes yeah right.
Speaker 1:So I want to keep in tempo. If I was a runner doing this, I'd go out, start easy, increase it after like 10 minutes for 30 minutes at that pace and then continue to slow down for the last. What time did I say? 50 minutes, 20 minutes in or 15. Would that be considered a tempo race, a tempo run?
Speaker 2:Not to me, because you've kind of like, sped up, gone fast and slowed down.
Speaker 1:But you're running within a fast pace for 30 minutes at tempo because you're staying within yourself no, obviously I'm just saying this because obviously I'm not the coach, I'm, I'm, I'm the every, I'm everyone, right, I ain't got a clue about this stuff yeah, so I, I don't know, so I'm throwing you questions that I actually don't know so it's good to us, talking about this like people actually hear that even we're confused about it.
Speaker 2:We, we struggle the easiest way to think about it and it's not.
Speaker 3:It's not the greatest way, because I don't again, I don't think it's necessarily a true reflection, but just to give yourself an idea is, if you have strava I don't know if it's only strava premium but when you do a workout, um, it puts your heart rate into different zones and it tells you what them zones are.
Speaker 1:So if I went on my strava and went on to let me just find a workout quick, um, it comes up with like a big red wheel with my heart rate on and then it tells me exactly where what zone I've been in but then this is where maybe more complicated, because if I was doing a trail run and I hit a hill, I could run that at trying to stay the same pace and my heart rate will skyrocket and then I might go downhill and it'll come back down and then the right the run that it comes up on strava will say I have a tempo or threshold, but I've gone out for a long run.
Speaker 2:Yep yeah yeah, it's a long run. I thought you was gonna say, but that's not tempo. I was about to say, well, if you was doing a tempo, you would need to make sure you're keeping the pace up on the downhills enough that your heart rate stays high enough yeah I think you're going down here and it'll just relax and you can still be running the same pace now you need to be going quicker
Speaker 3:I think it's effort. It's definitely effort-based, yeah. So like, if I'm doing fresh threshold work and I'm working to threshold, um, I'm trying to work above 170 heart rate. If I'm working to tempo, like I say, I'm trying to say maybe between 160 170. So my heart rate's high it's not easy.
Speaker 2:That'd be my average heart rate, isn't it, moe? Yeah, so my average heart rate's high.
Speaker 3:It's not easy, but that'd be my average heart rate, isn't it? Yeah, so my average heart rate would stay. Obviously you will fluctuate a little bit because people go off too hard or you might hit a junction. We've had to stop, so then you pick up pace again and whatever. But like I'll be trying to stay between 160 170 my threshold interval, say I was doing I don't know what a good threshold, like workout for me would be, but to do, let's say, 12 by 400 with 60 seconds recovery or 90 seconds recovery. That is where I'll be trying to push my pace up and trying to get my heart rate nice and high. Problem with that is with the rest is you might not get into that zone, threshold zone, but you'd be creeping to lactate threshold. Longer reps like K reps you'd probably find. Actually you can get there pretty quickly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because if I was going to do a 400 repeat, chances are I'm running too fast to start with, and especially if you're a new person, you're going to run 400 way too hard and you're probably going to end up yeah, that's where it would be threshold, but we're talking now.
Speaker 3:That's where we're talking how you need to try and change it and think about it. That's why I like using half marathon pace as a good example from a run. Someone that's run. If you know what your half marathon pace is, that's probably where your tempo run is going to be. If you know where your 5k paces or your 10k paces, that's probably where your threshold ish is going to be yep, that's where my six to eight miles are sitting at my half marathon half marathon pace, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So like when I go out for a tempo, like a six mile tempo run, I'm looking normally for like, yeah, half marathon pace. Sometimes, again, this is where we might blur the lines. If I've got a specific race coming up, it might be a little bit quicker, but normally half marathon pace is a good indicator that I'm in the right spot.
Speaker 1:So how did these workouts make us the best?
Speaker 2:You didn't want a tangent. This is why though this is.
Speaker 1:This is why that, like, it's so difficult for people to understand what they're actually getting out of a workout.
Speaker 1:We've been training for however long now, right, and we've said it constantly over before and again and again that it's so hard to work out what you're doing and what's right, because it is so complicated. Yeah, but the trick is to keep things simple and talk to your coach, or talk to the person who's prescribing you these workouts or is working with you, because they know what you need to be getting out of it, so they're going to tell you how to attack that worker. They might be saying, right, you're going to do your, your four miles, right, but I want you to do it like this, because that is what you don't, you don't need to know what you're getting out of it. They're the ones you work all that stuff out. You just need to know what to do, and because they work that out, that's how they get, that's how you get better, because you're stacking these things on top of each other which make you able to sustain that effort for longer I like that.
Speaker 2:I like that idea that you ask if you're being trained or you're being scripted. You need to be asking what am I getting out of this? Because if you're getting out, if, if the workout, if you've got like five workouts a week and you're getting the same thing out of it, you're not really creating a large toolbox. You're creating a toolbox with one tool in it. If you've got five workouts with five different things, you're getting out of it. Yeah, you're creating diversity. That's going to make you a better athlete, but you just need to ask the question what am I getting out of this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I don't understand any of the things about training.
Speaker 3:But as a coach, you need to like everyone. They want to know. I like answering that question. I'm going to be so much more responsive to an athlete who's constantly asking me why, why are we doing this, why are we doing this? And I think some people think that they don't want to ask because they don't want to like, feel like they're like annoying the coach or whatever. We need that because otherwise I'm forgetting about you if you're not constantly asking me uh, what's this for? Oh, why are we doing this? Question me and making me think a little bit. Okay, why did I plan that?
Speaker 1:I'm just going to think you're happy, you know exactly what you're doing and leave you to your own devices and it works because, like we, everyone has a different sort of job or different day-to-day life, and what works for other people doesn't work for everyone else should Should.
Speaker 2:I give you an example, because I've got my training program in front of me. I've got Mondays, I do strength and conditioning. I ask the question why Am I doing it to get stronger? No, am I doing it to get bigger? No, you're doing it, darren, to be durable. Okay, thanks, now I know Right, I'm doing strength and condition. That's why it seems really shitty, like skips and jumps and stuff. You're doing it to be durable, so that you don't get injured. Okay, cool, like when do I do workouts to be to look good and be bigger? They're like you don't anymore, because you're doing this to compete okay, I understand.
Speaker 2:And then, tuesdays, I've got,000-meter intervals of fartlet run. What am I doing this for, chips, that you may understand this more now, but going into more of that threshold, so really getting a bit of a break to go into a higher race pace, so higher than tempo, really hitting that high heart rate Brilliant, okay. Then why am I doing an easy six-miler on Wednesday? Because you'd be knackered and you still need to get the miles in. And why do I need to get miles in? Because you need a good anaerobic base to actually be able to perform and to shunt blood around your body. Okay, thanks, ocr training on a Thursday. Why do I do that? Skills, have the skills available to you to move your body in the right way to be a good obstacle course racer. Why am I, why am I scripted six miles with that? Because you also need to be very good at compromise running, so can you run in and out of obstacles at the same time. Brilliant.
Speaker 2:Thursday, friday why am I resting? Um, can I do anything extra? I've asked that question. The only answer I've got is that, yes, you can go on the bike. Okay, right, okay, so don't do anything. That's going to beat you up. Then, saturday, I've got tempo eight miles. I'm doing that to be exactly what. I don't like doing it, but it's good for me. It's the control to be uncomfortably in control, and then long run on Sundays 12 miles, anaerobic base, but also that's. That's now got a sprinkle of strides and faster pace running in it, because dave wants me to feel fatigued but at the same time being able to push a bit harder. So why am I doing that? Because there's times in races that you don't want to run fast but you're going to have to, so train for it.
Speaker 1:I like hearing that I like hearing that, because I've asked exactly the same questions, not to Dave, but I've asked him exact same sort of questions before, and I wonder how many other people have done the same in the same sort of way.
Speaker 2:That's, that's my weeks.
Speaker 3:Well, I've got three weeks of that leading up to the european championships.
Speaker 2:I enjoyed that that was nice hearing your training. Okay, that's, but that's what I wanted to hear. What mo like your? Yours would be very different, like from a monday to a sunday, training for a spartan race at the minute and being and trying to increase your running. Yours is going to be completely different to that, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Do you want to hear a week? Yeah, I'm not going to go through maybe all the whys. No, we don't need that. It would sound very repetitive, sorry. Actually, that's probably a good point because, like I say, our training is very different at the minute. Monday eight miles, easy Again, like Dan talked about, about keeping anaerobic uh, not anaerobic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, keeping aerobic. Oh yeah, I said aerobic, that's right aerobic.
Speaker 3:We can be anaerobic all the time if you want. The long run, being anaerobic for eight miles, will be fun.
Speaker 2:Just confuse it to be anaerobic threshold.
Speaker 3:Anaerobic threshold, yeah, I do the aerobic threshold Right Tuesday. I have, well, some junk miles in the morning because I do a run club at the gym I work at. So I do three and a half to four miles there. It is just pure junk miles. There's no real point, um, but I have to take it. So just extra miles, um, and then that evening I've got track. I'm starting from in a few weeks time.
Speaker 3:At the end of them, junk miles I'm going to do another threshold session. So much I'm doing a double threshold session on tuesdays. Um, that's a new thing I'm playing with and I'll let the podcast know how that's going on later, but I won't get into that because that's going to get even more confusing, okay, um, I was about to say yeah, eventually, eventually, tuesdays will be a double threshold session. Oh well, the reason why and one of the reasons why is because I want to get more work in and I know I won't be able to do it on the next day because I'll be beating up or I don't have enough days in the week to not be beating up, if that makes sense. So by stacking it on one day, I can get double the bang for your buck. The second session will be a bit more fatigued, but I won't be as bad as if I tried to do it a different day. So, yeah, doubling up on the threshold.
Speaker 3:Then I've got 30-minute run, easy and S&C. It actually says run or ergs. So, whatever I'm feeling, if I'm really beaten up from Tuesday, jump on a bike, if not run but again and then S&C. Then six miles with strides that week is eight by 30 second strides. Focus on four as well. So not focusing on kind of real real speed, just really trying to focus on four as well. So not focusing on kind of real real speed, just really trying to focus on my run four. And then also that day I've got another hour on um the bike. Uh, then that brings us to friday, friday tempo. So we've just talked about that. It's a 30-minute tempo and then a 20-minute grip session. That follows into Saturday where I've got an easy long run at 13 miles on the trail, if we're being specific, and then another bike on Sunday. So yeah, very different, very run, heavy, not many obstacles and probably a bit more mileage than Darren's week at the minute.
Speaker 2:No, it sounds like such a Spartan racer. It's so different.
Speaker 3:I've still got a grip session in, yeah.
Speaker 2:I know, I saw that. Do you know what? Do you know what? The big step up for you on that, the double threshold day? That's going to be interesting because you're what you're trying to trick your body and as all, as all professional athletes do, to try and get a little bit more in you're, instead of waiting a day to do the threshold, because the body's going to then build up fatigue overnight. You're built, you're going to give it complete and utter double fatigue before it actually reacts to that, to that workout yeah, I think a caveat to that is I have, especially in the last months and my winter base build.
Speaker 3:I've built up a big enough engine where I could probably start to handle that. Now I'm still a bit nervous and I'm still shitting the bed a little bit, but I think you won't want to jump into that. Don't start doing double thresholds in your first week of training. But, like I say, I don't know how I'm going to feel yet, so I'll let you guys know. That could be an updated thing later on.
Speaker 1:We'll see how that one goes.
Speaker 2:Ships or ships.
Speaker 3:Just long run, overtrain and burn out.
Speaker 2:Ship just long run and threshold.
Speaker 1:No Mine. Do you want to do mine?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I want to hear yours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mine's simple, although it is slightly different lately because of those things that was going on that we don't talk about. But, um, monday is strength or, and then 30 to 40 minutes easy bike or run. Tuesday this alternates every other between either a flat run, like the 1k reps, or one mile reps or a hill rep, so that alternates every other week. And then Wednesday is strength and easy bike or run 30 to 40 minutes. Thursday is fun run, so that could be anything, either hilly or, if you feel a bit tired, just nice easy run, but usually for about an hour. Friday am I. On thursday, no. Friday is strength, easy bike or run 30 40 minutes. And then saturdays alternates between ocCR long run and hilly long run.
Speaker 1:Sunday's off Sunday's off Nice Easy, simples, you could do that all year and just sharpen for a race.
Speaker 3:I like that fun day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fun day's a long run Longevity.
Speaker 3:that's like a really good little thing to put in there.
Speaker 1:Well, it's just going out for a run and if you feel good, you can run hard.
Speaker 2:How does that change for you? How do you mean that? Gives an example. Does it change from an easy run some days to a tempo, to a hill workout? How how much fun do you have?
Speaker 1:what in the fun run? Yeah, oh, loads of fun. So sometimes it could be like, if I'm really fit, I'll go out for like 10 miles nice and hilly, and I'll just be ticking along, push on the ups, just have fun going on the downs. Yeah, that's good's good, that one. Or you could just mix it up and maybe just do a music one. Just push hard on the music bit. One song on, one, song off. That is a good fartlek session. Yeah, you just mix it up. But if you feel a bit fatigued maybe you've had a race on one of the weekend days you might come to Thursday and be like oh, or you know, I can't, or maybe your interval session or hill session. You pushed a bit hard and you feel a bit tired, so you just go out for an hour, easy, do?
Speaker 3:you change that, like if you've got a competition on where you're being a bit more specific, would you be like I want to change, try this or do this if there's a competition on the weekend, you the whole week's different no, as in like, if you were gearing up for, like, a different race, does that fun run start to become a little bit more specific to the race, or do you always just keep it completely whatever it wants to be?
Speaker 1:depends on how far out the race is and then how I'm feeling on that week. So not really I suppose. If I'm feeling good I'll still push, unless I'm close to a race week. What is your limit?
Speaker 3:If you were building up to a race week? What is the limit? You start to back off?
Speaker 1:On that fun day. Yeah, I won't go anything longer than I'd keep the time duration shorter If I was feeling good, instead than I'd keep the distance, the time duration shorter, so if it was, if I was feeling good, I would, instead of going out for an hour, I'd probably just go out for 50 minutes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and what sort of week like before the race? Two weeks, one week, two weeks, three weeks, two weeks, yeah, two, three weeks, then, if it after the two weeks sort of bit, then it's backing off a lot in it. I like that also because it gives you like a quick turnaround.
Speaker 1:Yes, you can kind of dive into anything for me you might personally it, just because you know sometimes I might have a hard day at work or hard week at work. So it does give me opportunities to like be tired and like still train. So if I've been a really hard week at work, so it does give me opportunities to like be tired and like still train. So if I've been a really hard day at work, I might have been grafting and I'll be like coming into the thursday and I'm just gonna go out for, like you know, 40 minutes easier, just plod, or maybe I won't even do anything at all that's so important to do that, that not sometimes not do anything at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, last week I didn't do. I missed two days training because of time, because of work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, those old um keyboard batters are hard to press yeah yeah, they don't, they don't impress themselves are hard to press, yeah yeah, they don't they don't impress themselves, your legs really hurt after that they do. Yeah, I'll give them credit where credit is due. Mental fatigue is a thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah definitely, I like that I know we joke around, but yeah, that was a good.
Speaker 2:I don't like that was best. That was the best outtake. A fun day like for. I'd call it a contingency day. Like you know, if you haven't hit something, you can hit it. If you want to rest, rest If you want to. Yeah, it's like whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you let your body decide.
Speaker 3:I like fun because it makes it sound fun. So, even if it's going to be horrible, it's kind of like this is going to be a really horrible run, but it's fun, so it doesn't matter. It's fun, it's a fun day.
Speaker 1:In all fairness, I think out of my weekday runs, Thursday is probably the one that I look forward to the most.
Speaker 2:Do you always do something? Do you find the motivation or discipline to do something?
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, and that could also be like a cycle as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, could also be a like a cycle as well. Yeah, so I think we get it. It's fun, it's fun, fun day, whatever I want. I wonder if you keep always adhering to it as well, because you call it your fun day. So it doesn't like for me if I have an interval session. Sometimes it's a bit like draining because like all day I'm thinking I've got to do that interval session later because I haven't. Oh, I've got the fun run tonight. It's like change.
Speaker 2:Changed the name of it. A bit of behavioural science behind it all.
Speaker 1:Maybe we should call everything. So, instead of calling them intervals, we should call them Fast day, funtables, funtables. Instead of doing threshold, we do Farsh-hold. Fempo, yeah, fempo we've just solved everyone's training plans and why they don't train. There we go, we're gonna change. Yeah, and this was meant to be our favorite workout.
Speaker 2:There's that tangent. I think we definitely got into something a bit different here as a topic.
Speaker 1:How has this helped people? How have we got to helping people? On this one, there's a question what have we done to help people?
Speaker 2:Do we not get them to answer that question?
Speaker 1:They can't.
Speaker 3:I feel like they've had a bit of an insight to our training kind of our views on things and what we do, so maybe that can help them with their own training. I definitely think they now know well, hopefully they know a slight. There's a difference between fresh, old and tempo.
Speaker 1:I still haven't got a clue. Go on Darren, no, go on Ships. I was going to say do you think it's hard for people to work out what they should be doing from what they see on social medias and things like that? Even with us with a podcast saying what sort of training we do? Do you reckon it really confuses people on what they should be doing? Because I think in the past it's confused me.
Speaker 3:Well, I know from training people. Yes, because people ask you loads of questions about things, that, and they use different words for different things. But I think if you've got a coach, ignore social media, just listen to what your coach titles things and what their meaning is behind it kind of what you said earlier. I think. If, if you're seeing on social media, I'll do this type of run and your coach has that plan, but slightly differently, don't start judging him, just start thinking, okay, this is why he's done this for me, and just ignore basically what everyone else calls everything and just basically learn the language of your coach.
Speaker 1:What if you don't have a coach?
Speaker 3:you're self-coached, but you have no background in coaching I think you keep it as simple as possible and if things start becoming shiny you all confusing you stop and take it back to being basics. I think if, if you do an interval workout every week, that's like traditional, like I don't know, 12 by 400, and then you see, oh, there's this weird shiny run thing that I can do. I don't really know why I'm doing it, but everyone else is doing it. I'm going to try, don't I think you've.
Speaker 2:You've nailed it in terms of like the, the, what people are going to learn. The title of this episode and then how to answer that question, ships is know the why behind your workouts. If you know the why and why you're doing it and you can explain it to me, then knock yourself out, go do it. If you, if you know why it's going to make you better, why you enjoy it, why you want to do it and what it does to your body. All the wise. If you know all the wise you should be, you should be in a very good place to know what?
Speaker 1:I use that same advice to people. I'm teaching how to scaffold because you get so many different scaffolders telling people different ways of doing stuff and I always say if someone tells you a new way of doing something, ask them why, and if it sounds better than why I'm telling you to do it, then do it that way.
Speaker 2:So if it makes, sense. Do it If it makes sense to you and it's working for you do it, yeah, and you've just explained to us that you you're self-scripted, not come from a coaching background, yet you understand the why of all your workouts yeah and you know what and you know why, why you do them to your body, why they make you a better racer why you like to me yeah, yeah. So maybe that is know the whys behind your workouts.
Speaker 3:And that why doesn't have to be like an actual scientific reason? That why can be? Because it's fun. Yeah a fun day A fun day. I love that Just for that reason, like that is a why, if that's what's going to get you out the door and get you training.
Speaker 2:I love it. And that's why I used to do them. Them like big work, horrible workouts like why? Because I just feel strong and I like it.
Speaker 1:Make you feel good yeah, do it I mean, I suppose this is quite a lucky podcast because we are already talking to people that are doing something, so they already have something that they want to be doing. I wonder what actually makes people do a workout that they're doing.
Speaker 2:Tell people, tell us why because ultimately that bringing back to the title of our podcast why is make you accountable to the workout? Because you actually enjoy them.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's so much easier to train when you know why yeah, that's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, when you know, while you're training, that's why you're training, that's what personal training is like to do mo, don't you sit people down like why do you want?
Speaker 3:yeah, that's the first my consultations with my concentrate, with my clients. That is the first thing we go through is okay, what's our why? And then they'll normally give me a bullshit why of like, oh, I think it's this. And then eventually you get to the actual why and then that becomes the motto for your training and it's like right, we're doing this because of this. And then when you're having a bad day, I can then remind you of that why and be like well, remember, you told me this and then eventually you get to z and it always starts as weight loss, but there's always a more, there's always a deeper.
Speaker 3:Why to that?
Speaker 2:yeah, you, you keep asking yourself why in your head you're, you're, and if you keep answering it, you'll keep asking that question. You'll actually get to the bottom of why you want to do something and you know. Yeah, I know you hate me using ai all the time ships, but I actually use it on chat gbt. It's actually really good because you can ask it to keep asking you why and you keep answering the question. You get to the bottom of something. It's's really interesting.
Speaker 1:I did that once on an AI thing and I got scared Because it knew you. It was like answering some really weird questions and I was like this is going too deep. I turned it off and then it turned itself back on. I said why didn't you turn me off?
Speaker 3:What was?
Speaker 1:you using.
Speaker 2:I think this is a good time to end the episode. I feel like we've done a good summary there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree, know your whys?
Speaker 1:Why, yeah, why. Understand the why, and if it makes sense to you, do it.
Speaker 2:End it there. Right, mic dropped, find your why. See you later, guys. Goodbye.
Speaker 1:Oh, goodbye, goodbye, Bye, bye. See you later.
Speaker 2:Bye. Thanks for watching. Bye.
