Be a Permanent Beta with Frank Koo S4 I Ep 2

In this episode of the Career Transitions Podcast, we have an insightful conversation with Frank Koo, founder and director of NextPlay, and former Head of Asia Talent and Learning Solutions at LinkedIn. With a career spanning leadership roles at top tech companies like Oracle, IBM, and HP, Frank shares his unique perspectives on the future of work, the importance of a growth mindset, and the concept of being in "permanent beta"—a continuous journey of learning and self-improvement.

Frank dives into the impact of technological disruptions on jobs and organizations, offering practical advice for professionals to stay ahead of these changes. He emphasizes the importance of upskilling, building a professional brand, and planning for a portfolio career that includes diverse streams of income and projects. For those facing retrenchment, Frank provides thoughtful guidance on navigating the emotional and practical aspects of career transitions.

This episode is packed with actionable insights to help you take charge of your career in these rapidly evolving times. Whether you’re looking to enhance your tech savviness, build a strong professional brand, or explore a portfolio career, Frank's wisdom will inspire you to take the next step with confidence.

Connect with us on LinkedIn: 

·       Vanessa Iloste (Host)

·       Vanessa Teo (Host) 

·       Aaron Wu (Producer)

Transcript

[00:00:00] Vanessa T: Welcome to season four of the Career Transitions Podcast. In this season, we explore the impact of the future of work and professionals and organizations.

[00:00:14] Vanessa I: In this episode, we had an inspiring conversation with Frank Koo, founder and director of NextPlay, a professional training and coaching organization and a former head of Asia Talent and Learning Solution at LinkedIn Asia.

[00:00:29] Vanessa T: We were impressed with his refreshing approach to building careers of the future and his views on having a growth mindset. 

[00:00:36] Vanessa I: He also encouraged us to be intentional about planning our long term portfolio career and being what he calls a permanent beta or a constant work in progress. We hope you gain some practical insight from this episode and take charge of your career.

[00:00:56] Vanessa T: Welcome everyone to the next episode of the Career Transitions podcast. The podcast where we explore what it takes to successfully navigate through career transitions, no matter which stage of career or life you're at. 

[00:01:09] Vanessa I: Today, we are very excited to welcome Frank Koo, founder and director of Nextplay, a professional coaching and training organization that help people to navigate their careers.

[00:01:20] Frank was formerly head of Asia Talent and Learning Solution at LinkedIn. He has spent most of his career in the tech industry, leading teams at Oracle, IBM, HP, and Pearson Education. Welcome to our show, Frank. 

[00:01:35] Frank K: Thank you, Vanessa. Happy to be here. Thank you. 

[00:01:38] Vanessa T: We're really excited today to have you, Frank, on our show.

[00:01:41] Let's dive right in. Frank, we're seeing so much technological disruption in organizations and in jobs today. And in fact, a recent report by McKinsey reported that by 2023, automation could disrupt up to 375 million workers globally. So I'm very curious, in your view, how is technology disrupting organizations and jobs today?

[00:02:04] Frank K: Well, Vanessa, technology has been disrupting organizations and jobs all the time. In fact, if you look back in history, the four industrial revolutions that we've been through are all disrupted by technologies. 

[00:02:15] So for the first one, we have the steam engine. The second one is the invention of electricity. The third one with internet and mobile computing. And the fourth one that we are seeing right now is really with AI, and in particular, generative AI. 

[00:02:31] Throughout history, with every industrial revolution, we have organizations that have been disrupted. For instance, during the internet and mobile boom days, we have companies such as Borders, who was a bookstore, Kodak, who was a photography company, as well as Blockbuster Video, who used to rent videos right from stores.

[00:02:52] All these have been disrupted. At the same time, there were new companies that were born. So for instance, Amazon. com, who started selling online books, but now online everything. And then we have Netflix, who stream video. And also, we have the third one, which is iPhones, or mobile phones in general. Who allows consumers to take pictures much better than what a normal camera would allow us to do.

[00:03:15] And at the same time, for jobs, we have a huge disruption in every industrial revolution. Just to give an example, when cars were invented, there's a huge number of horse carriage owners. whose livelihood were disrupted. But at the same time, there were a high number of drivers and chauffeurs that came out as a new profession then.

[00:03:36] So it's really about the shifts between companies to another and the shift between one job and another job. Since change is constant and technological disruption is constant, then all that we can do, whether as organizations or individuals, is really to be prepared for the change and be ahead of the game.

[00:03:52] Vanessa I: That's very powerful. Thank you so much for sharing. And I'm sure you have seen so much happening in the tech industry because you have had so many successful roles. So hearing it from you is actually very, very reassuring for all of us. We wanted also to ask you a little bit, Frank, about retrenchment.

[00:04:09] When we did some research with Vanessa, we realized that the MOM in Singapore reported that the retrenchment have more than doubled rising from 6,400 in 2022 to 14,300 in 2023. And the top reasons for these retrenchments were business reorganization or restructuring due in part to the impact of global economic headwinds.

[00:04:32] We wanted to know from your experience and from what you already started sharing with us about all the revolution we have been through, what should professionals do to upskill and stay ahead of their career? 

[00:04:44] Frank K: Yeah, that's a billion dollar question Vanessa. If retrenchment has not happened to us yet, there is a bit of time for us to prepare ourselves.

[00:04:53] And to do so effectively, I would suggest looking at a couple of areas. First of all, It's really building a growth mindset and I call this seeing ourselves as a permanent beta. And as you know, a beta is a technical term that says that a product may not be ready, but you put it in the market nevertheless and you test out.

[00:05:13] And hopefully over time, it becomes better and better until it becomes a complete product. So likewise, as all of us, it's good to see ourselves as a permanent beta, always a work in progress. but never a complete product. And this means that we can learn new skills, and new skills includes both the hard skills that's required to do our current job or new job, as well as soft skills such as collaboration, communications, critical thinking, and what I call adaptive skills.

[00:05:40] Skills such as sustainability, which is an important skill to have, and Generative AI that will allow us to adapt to changes. And most importantly, as a normal beta program, we need to take action. We need to use the skills that we have, test the markets and see how it turns out. And in fact, when I look at both of you, I realized that you guys are really using your skills that you have and taking experiments to test the market, to see how this podcast is turning out and learn from there and become a better and better channel for everybody.

[00:06:11] So I think you guys are really resembling what someone should do to prepare themselves for the change. so much. 

[00:06:16] Vanessa T: Frank, you're very kind. We do, in fact, learn quite a bit every time that we've done this podcast and through our seasons, and we're now in season four, we have certainly learned a lot through the stories and shared experiences from other guests who've come on our show, but also about ourselves as we've also evolved through this journey.

[00:06:36] I really love what you talk about, the permanent beta, and No prizes for guessing that you do come from the tech industry. But I love your analogy about this permanent beta and always being in that mindset of never being a complete product, always on that journey of learning. I have to ask you this question for those who still have that runway and you haven't been disrupted yet by a retrenchment.

[00:07:00] I think you have a bit of that runway to keep reinventing and keep experimenting, but what would you say to people who are actually going through a retrenchment right now due to the technological challenges? How would you advise them as they navigate through this challenging period? 

[00:07:17] Frank K: Oh, indeed. It is a very difficult time for people.

[00:07:19] And as all of us know, many of them are not prepared for that. So it can be a distressing period. But I would suggest instead of rushing and panicking to try to find another job quickly, I would suggest that we take a pause. Because in times like this, there can be a lot of negative emotions. Be it shock, denial, anger, that can arise very immediately upon the announcement of a redundancy.

[00:07:44] So it's important for us to take some time to process this feeling. I know some people would repress it on that moment, but you'll end up giving them a huge emotional outburst in time to come. Perhaps not even with the manager or the company but maybe with the loved ones. So I'll say a better thing to do is to let the feeling process and come to a point where you have acceptance of what's happening so that you can then take the next step in terms of coming to terms with our feelings and then start planning.

[00:08:11] Now I'll say that throughout this process of acceptance, it's good to not just owe everything to yourself but also take some time to talk to friends, your loved ones, or to counselors. And I know that some progressive companies who have reduction in force in place would support impacted employees with counseling service and psychological service.

[00:08:31] So take advantage of this, talk it through so that you can have better ideas. Now, once you have processed your feelings, it would be good to start evaluating a couple of areas. First of all, our financial position and how long the package or our current savings last. Secondly, look at career options and in the meantime to really take on engagements that have meaning ourselves.

[00:08:53] So for instance, some of us may have neglected some hobbies or some interests that we love because of the time we needed to do our work or some of us may have neglected relationships and it's good to connect back to these hobbies and relationships or even take on some voluntary work in the meantime to help other people.

[00:09:09] And I think this is important because what we're doing is that we're letting our feelings move out of us, right? So that we don't become overly self centered, but rather we become people centered because as all of us know, during this time of stress, the more self centered we are, the more difficult it is for us to get through this journey.

[00:09:25] And also in terms of the journey, it's also important for us to know that it's actually not a destination that we would have to go through by a certain time, it's a journey because first of all opportunities may not be so easily available and secondly it's also a good time for us to really discover and understand ourselves better so that we can then decide there are certain roles that we have not thought of that will be good for us in the future or maybe we can even decide on coming on our own and doing something different depending on our financial as well as health situation.

[00:09:56] So while it is unfortunate that some of us may be impacted in a redundancy, But it's possible for some of us who have the means and resources to take it as a life changing moment and find our identity so that we can lead a better life moving forward. 

[00:10:10] Vanessa I: Thank you, Frank, because I'm sure a lot of our listeners actually are going to really benefit from your words of wisdom.

[00:10:17] And also the demeanor you have, the way you express it is also quite commendable, because you know, usually I think when people go through this experience, they find it hard to find their grounding. So even listening to your voice and listening to your confidence in the future is actually a form of hope.

[00:10:36] So thank you for that. 

[00:10:37] Frank K: I know how difficult it is when we are impacted in such situations, but it's useful for us to really think through properly and seek help externally so that we can get through this difficult period in a more resourceful and in a more calm fashion. 

[00:10:53] Vanessa I: And I was really impressed when we prepared the episode together and you told us that you are actually advising some of your clients to get some help externally.

[00:11:01] I mean, from therapists, from counselors. And I think this is really good because sometimes people are a little bit reluctant, but if they have a coach like you, who is giving them this form of advice, I'm sure that it's easier for them to push the door of a clinician who is going to help them in their own way as well.

[00:11:18] So thank you for that. We wanted also to ask you the question with Vanessa around tech savviness. You are an expert because you have been in the tech industry for so many years. But there are many people who do not have this tech savviness and they might feel like the job has been taken away because they might not have been the most digital savvy person of their team or their company.

[00:11:38] So what form of advice would you give to them in order for them also to upgrade themselves and to find a new role? 

[00:11:45] Frank K: I would say try it, take a small step at a time and over time you realize that you can actually pick up a lot of new skills regardless of the level of tech savvy. And we have examples to show that.

[00:11:56] So during COVID, when a lot of people did not realize how much tech savvy they have until they're forced to work from home and learn the new technologies that is required for them to do their work well. And so I think this experience can help many of us, regardless of the level or tech savvy, to really think about when there's a new technology, how can we pick it up a step at a time.

[00:12:18] So for instance, I would think that anyone who can use a messaging service would be able to pick up Generative AI skills. So you can start with prompt engineering, but it's really about asking some questions. You get the answers in a more detailed fashion that you want. I think that having a lifelong learning mentality as well as a sense of curiosity and being able to stretch outside of comfort zone a step at a time is going to help us regardless of what level we are in.

[00:12:42] Vanessa T: I have to say I really like this piece that you talk about starting simple because sometimes we can get very intimidated by this whole piece about Generative AI. But actually if you take a few steps back, AI is already present within WhatsApp messaging. And so it's taking that first step to Just giving it a try.

[00:13:00] And you might be amazed at what you see. And those are small, easy steps that you can take before you get ready for the bigger step. 

[00:13:06] Frank K: On the same analogy, Vanessa, you know, many years back, when emoji first appeared on messaging services, people were a bit shocked. You know, they were asking themselves, what's this about?

[00:13:15] And now you look at the emojis, everybody's using emojis in most of the messages they send. So that's a good example that you mentioned. 

[00:13:22] Vanessa T: Just give it a try. 

[00:13:23] Frank K: Absolutely. 

[00:13:24] Vanessa I: Building your professional brand is super important. We wanted to ask you, Frank, because we can see on LinkedIn that you are really, really popular and you have made a big impact on all of us.

[00:13:35] What are some practical tips you can offer to professional to build a strong professional brand? 

[00:13:41] I personally think that a professional brand can exist both online as well as offline. It's important for us to think about our professional brand with our colleagues, with our partners that we work with, as well as with our clients.

[00:13:53] So I'll classify professional brand perhaps into three areas. The first one I would say is competency. So as professionals, all of us will need to have the skills that's required to do our job well. And such skills will allow people to look upon us as an expert in certain areas. So for instance, both of you are HR leaders, you have the competency with regards to many areas of HR, and that's part of the professional brand.

[00:14:18] But at the same time, in today's world, we realize that it's not just about us doing our job, but we need to collaborate with other people and even other teams to meet a certain objective. And therefore, collaboration is a parcel of the competence that we have to build. The second one I would say is credibility.

[00:14:35] Credibility is about the professional ethics so that people can know that they can trust us and they can know that our behavior is consistent regardless of the situation that we are in where we have to resolve problems. And the third one I would say is relatability. It's really about how we relate to others, how we listen to others, show empathy to others, as well as our ability to collaborate and support others.

[00:14:59] Now, relatability is important because it will allow others to come to us when they have an idea or problem to be solved or any question that they have. And I'll say that these three areas are relevant both offline as well as online. So for instance, when we are leveraging on LinkedIn as a platform to share our professional brand or have an executive presence, it's important to first of all, share our thought leadership and that's competency.

[00:15:24] And we need to also enable other people to know that we are consistent as a professional. At the same time that we not just want to talk about our achievements, but also potentially our vulnerabilities, our setback, so that we are real and we are relatable. When we combine the online and offline presence and having consistency built between both.

[00:15:45] And that will then be a very solid professional brand that we can develop for ourselves. 

[00:15:50] Vanessa T: I totally relate to what you're saying and you know, as we think about the three areas that you just mentioned, competencies, credibility, and relatability. I couldn't help but tell myself this is something that AI doesn't have.

[00:16:02] This is only something that you as truly a professional and authentic professional can bring to life. So this is the piece that AI will not be able to replace. It's how competent you are at your job, how credible and how relatable you are in your role. And so I, I really appreciate the things that you're saying about how these three things can help to build your brand on and offline.

[00:16:24] We have to ask you, given that you've been a leader at LinkedIn for so many years. We too, also quite huge users of the LinkedIn platform, and we use it as HR professionals, as part of employer branding. As part of looking for candidates for roles. In fact, it's the first gateway that many employers look at when we look at candidates.

[00:16:44] So the online presence on LinkedIn is quite an important platform, particularly for professionals. Any tips that you can give to our listeners as they think about how we built that LinkedIn presence more effectively in order to build their brand? 

[00:16:59] Frank K: Perhaps for a start, we can look at three areas. One is our profile, starting from a more professional picture or a headshot to having a deeper description of our values, of our achievements, of the work that we do.

[00:17:12] Now that gives people, whether it's from the acquisition team or your network, to have a certain picture of us as a member. Now, having done that, the next thing is to think about how we can share some of our learnings, our thought leadership on the platform. It can be certain ideas or insights we have on the professional front, certain solutions that we can bring to the table or certain products that ourselves or a company may be selling, and people then have a better picture of what we represent as a professional.

[00:17:41] Now, at the same time, LinkedIn is a platform where people want to come in and learn and feel inspired. So therefore, as part and parcel of building the world professional brand. on the platform is really to think about how we can also inspire other people. And in this case, it's good to be number one, respectful.

[00:17:57] So when we post certain things, we need to ensure that we're not really condemning anyone or any particular sector, because it's not something that is meaningful for us, but rather share something that people can learn and gather insights from. And as part and parcel of this electronic community, we also need to be a good citizen.

[00:18:14] So in this connection is really about, you know, looking at other people's sharing and posts and commenting on them in a respectful way, and then And also leverage the platform to connect with people online first and maybe even offline if you can either through a virtual chat or have coffee with them so that you can actually have exposure to a wide variety of members that are different from you and we can learn from them.

[00:18:36] So this will then allow us to leverage the platform to really get informed and build our network and also advance our career in many ways. 

[00:18:44] Vanessa T: It's really using LinkedIn in multiple ways. It's not just about building your own professional brand, but I love what you talk about building the network, using it as a platform to share information, to share your thought leadership, and also to very importantly, to make connections, something that I think is super important as professionals.

[00:19:05] Vanessa I: I agree. 

[00:19:06] And, uh, one of the way actually we have demonstrated this is I think the first time we learned about you, Frank, was through LinkedIn. And, uh, I, I know Vanessa wanted to get to know you and we wanted to reach out to you. So we have actually, uh, the proof is in the pudding. The reason why we are here today is actually because we decided to reach out to you.

[00:19:23] So one of the things we wanted to talk about as well was around the portfolio management. In this disruptive times like we are in, we need to learn about new skills and we need to build a portfolio career. This may include having different projects or side gigs so that we have other streams of income rather than just one full time job.

[00:19:41] What are your thoughts on professional building a portfolio carrier? And do you have any practical tips, Frank, that you could share with us? 

[00:19:48] Frank K: Well, you know, as professionals, all of us have, I would say, a portfolio of skills that we bring to the table to do our jobs well. By such, portfolio of skill sets actually can go beyond the requirement for our job and we can then use such skills to do other things which, well, either we are interested in doing.

[00:20:05] So for instance, my colleagues who are good facilitators, they actually facilitate meetings during their off days as well. And for no reason other than because they're interested in doing so. And some actually sing part time in different stages and that's out of interest. Some people can actually take on side gigs to supplement the income.

[00:20:23] And to some, it's really an experiment to try out something which may work in time to come. And so, it's really about exercising the skills that you have built, and building upon your interests, and doing something that's meaningful for yourself, as well as others. Many of us are also volunteering, humanitarian bodies, professional bodies, charity bodies, and this is something that is useful and meaningful for us because we also want some point in time to give back to society.

[00:20:47] So these are all examples of how we can actually take on side gig or experimentation so that in future we can build a certain career out of the portfolio of skills that we have. 

[00:20:57] Vanessa T: Speaking of portfolio skills, Frank, you are a really great example of someone who's done so many things, experimentation, as well as side gigs or, you know, sitting on, on boards in addition to what was your day job.

[00:21:13] So we're very curious about your own portfolio career, Frank, and we also know that you've recently launched your new venture, Nextplay. So could you share more with us and how you ended up doing that? 

[00:21:25] Frank K: I would say very privileged to have a chance to work in LinkedIn. I've been there for eight years before coming out on my own a couple of months ago.

[00:21:33] I have the opportunity to essentially look at the crystal ball and was able to see the movement of jobs, of industries. And this gives me a certain idea of what the future of job, the future of careers and the future of industries would be like. And it started with monitoring in professional bodies, such as the Institute for HR Professionals and the Singapore Institute of Directors, which to me are nexus of change.

[00:21:58] And along the way, I went on a coaching program to train to be a coach. And in it, I built my life purpose of helping people and teams achieve positive transformation with joy. I thought bringing this few together is something that's very exciting to me. And so I then went on to conduct training and also to speak in various forums.

[00:22:17] And all these are done on very much of a pro bono basis. And just like both of you, to do something like this, we spent a lot of weeknights as well as weekends preparing for this kind of engagements. And it was actually about a year ago that I realized despite the commitment and the work that's required for such pro bono work, I get a lot of energy out of it.

[00:22:37] And so at a certain point in time, I had to think about if I want to do more of this work, which gives me energy, what do I need to do less? And in the end, it turned out to be my day's job. And so it was about three months ago now that I decided to leave the company, but I gave my manager about a year's notice so that we can plan for the backfill and get our teams ready.

[00:22:57] Well, I have the time to prepare for this new venture of mine, as Vanessa, you mentioned is our next play. which is really a venture to help people to find meaning in their work. And also I had some time to develop a framework based out of NextPlay. Next actually stands for the new you that you want to be, the experience that you want to take on, as well as the transformation that you're prepared to undertake.

[00:23:20] And then play is really a process of planning, learning, taking action. And then once you take action, you realize that reality will be different from your plan and you iterate. And through this iteration, what I find is that you get something out of it and it's joy. And so Y stands for Yay! 

[00:23:37] Vanessa T: Love it! 

[00:23:38] Frank K: Yeah, and it's interesting.

[00:23:40] When I put it up on LinkedIn, I received quite a lot of feedback and attention. And I realized that a lot of people are really feeling stuck in the current role and they want to think of a way out. So I hope to use this project of mine to help people elevate themselves, to build a necessary self as well as environmental awareness so that they can pick up new skills, the learn part, and take action, the A part, in order to actually help them to move to another level, which they enjoy.

[00:24:07] And hopefully you get the joy and happiness out of it. 

[00:24:09] Vanessa I: I think you resonate with a lot of people when you talk about joy. And I think this is something you should continue, Frank, because this is a really something important. I think, especially for the ones who feel they are stuck. When you want to think of hope, when you want to think of a, you know, the next step.

[00:24:25] If you stop thinking of joy and happiness, I think it takes you out, actually, of your difficult state and your mind is immediately drawn into something positive, into something creative. So please continue using a lot of yay and joy in your framework, Frank. We need more of that. 

[00:24:42] Vanessa T: I also like really how in your portfolio career and in building this, you've been extremely deliberate as well.

[00:24:49] We've talked about this on our podcast before too. When making career transitions, that the deliberate, intentional planning is super important and sometimes it's through the experimentation and doing some of these roles that are outside of your everyday comfort zone that ultimately builds you to that point where you're looking to get to.

[00:25:09] But it's not something that happens overnight and I, I really appreciate how much time and effort. But also commitment and focus that it's taken to really build that portfolio career, because it doesn't happen by chance. So really kudos to you. I love where you talk about taking action because a lot of times we can sit and deliberate and think about it, but unless you actually take action in doing that experiment or taking on that challenging role or project, it really doesn't happen until you take that action.

[00:25:37] Frank K: Yes, indeed Vanessa. And once you take action, you realize that there are a lot of things you will learn you would not have expected that you need to solve. And along the way, you become a better person, you develop a lot more self awareness, and that helps you to navigate the future much better. And so this has been my experience even before I started coming on my own and definitely upon coming on my own, every day is literally a new day for me.

[00:26:01] Vanessa I: I'm so happy to hear that, Frank, we would like to ask you some tips. So in this context of the future of work, we wanted to learn from you about the three tips, the top three tips, because you have given us so many that you will recommend our listeners to be future ready. 

[00:26:19] Frank K: These three tips is really the P, L, and A.

[00:26:23] First of all, when we can, do plan ahead. When we plan, we can think about our purpose in life, or some of us may not have a long term purpose, but it's okay, you can have an aspiration, what we want to be in X number of years time, and think about the strengths that we have, the interests or passion that we have, as well as what the world needs.

[00:26:42] Somebody called this the Ikigai, combining what is good for us, What we are good at and what is good for others. And that's the planning part. And planning, in a sense, it gives us a north star for us to get into in the longer term. After that, the need to do some learning. Learn about, in your path towards your true north, what are the things and skills you want to pick up.

[00:27:01] What is the network we want to build so that you're on the way towards your true north. And then taking action, doing something that's small, taking on some experimentation. Some people build a personal board of directors to advise them. Now along the way, then you are better aware of your real interests and your real strengths.

[00:27:19] And then your navigation becomes more accurate. And so over time, you realize that you're actually reaching at least a certain portion of your journey and you can be happy about that. So planning, learning, and action. And hopefully at the end of the day, you get a yay, the joy out of this process. 

[00:27:35] Vanessa T: I love that.

[00:27:36] P L A Y. Plan ahead, learn, take action, and ultimately get that big yay. Frank, you have been such an inspiration to have on our show. Your deliberate, intentional way that you've planned your portfolio career, your advice to people and professionals for what the future of work is all about, and most importantly, I feel your purpose, your energy, and confidence as you step into this new venture of yours for NextPlay.

[00:28:04] We wish you all the very best in this new venture. We know that you will continue to impact so many lives. And with that, we wanted to thank you for coming onto the Career Transitions podcast and sharing your valuable insights with our listeners. Thank you so much, Frank. 

[00:28:20] Frank K: Thank you very much, Vanessa. And Vanessa, it's a lovely conversation.

[00:28:23] I really enjoyed it. Thank you.