The STUber Podcast
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The STUber Podcast
S1 | EP 4: New York, New York: The City That Never Sleeps...Unless It's Underwater
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In this episode, Host Stu Briggs and special guest Mark Alpert discuss the unique challenges facing New York City and the entire planet in the era of climate change. From rising sea levels to extreme weather events, the Big Apple has never been more vulnerable.
Join us as we expose the truth about greenwashing, explore revolutionary ideas to fight global warming, and discuss the importance of political action in battling this crisis.
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Climate Change and Rising Sea Levels
Speaker 1That's called greenwashing . You're trying to whitewash the public into thinking that you're doing the green thing , and a lot of that's going on . Unfortunately , that's the way a lot of these companies have reacted to the climate issues . Let's tell the public all the things that we're doing and make them believe that we're really on their side , when mostly we're still doing business as usual . And of course , that is infuriating because activists , we have to constantly be calling them into account , saying no , don't believe everything they're saying in their commercials . Look at their financials , look at their bottom line , and then you'll actually see if they're living up to their words .
Speaker 2Don't let them pull the wool over your eyes . Thank you for stopping by the Stuber podcast . I am your host , slash driver , stu Briggs . And today let's hop in a Stuber green , something eco-friendly , something hybrid , like an electric car , because our special guest is a man on a warpath seeking to go after climate criminals . I won't say much more , so let's get into it . Hop in , buckle up , put on a cape , let's go for a ride . We've got an exciting show today . Our guest is Mark Alpert . He is a contributing editor at Scientific American and he's an internationally best-selling author of several science thrillers . Those titles include Final Theory , the Omega Theory , extinction and the Doomsday Show . These are all action-packed page-turners that show the frightening potential of near future technologies . Mark is also a lifelong science enthusiast . He majored in astrophysics at Princeton University and he currently resides in Manhattan with his wife and two children . And I also see here that you at one point were on a softball team , mark . Is that correct , or is that no longer something you're doing ?
Speaker 1Don't really go that much to softball teams anymore , but I love doing it when I do it with the Scientific American , and our team was known as the Big Bangers .
Speaker 2Is that somehow connected to a science idea ?
Speaker 1Yeah , I suggested that we call our team the Field Equations , which was a reference to something else in science , but I got overruled Field Equations . As you may know , we've had a terrible air quality event the past few days because of the fires in Quebec . As a result of those fires , the wind pushed them south to New York , philadelphia , washington DC areas and in New York City we had the worst air quality ever recorded . This is especially a concern for me because I'm a writer of science fiction and specifically climate fiction , which is fiction about the problem of climate change and how it's getting worse and what can we do about it . This recent event was really a wake-up call for people on the East Coast . You in California , you're pretty familiar with wildfires .
Speaker 2We had one four or five years ago and I remember waking up and seeing soot in the air and the orange sky . So yeah , we're familiar .
Speaker 1Yeah , and this is not isolated events . I believe that six of California's seven worst fires have happened in just the past three years . It's obvious that global warming is causing hotter and drier conditions to persist in many parts of the world , from California to Canada to Australia , and we're seeing the effects of that right now .
Speaker 2Yeah , more than 100 wildfires are burning across the Canadian border , over 9.3 million acres charred , and it could last fora while You're still seeing some of the effects of that wildfire there in New York .
Speaker 1Yeah , we've had it . The whole week the sun has been in eerie orange orbs . We're just not used to this . I'm hoping that people in New York City , being the media capital of the world , people will say okay , this is real . The carbon emissions that we're putting into the sky are causing worldwide changes that we're feeling the effects of now .
Speaker 2So it's not just arson , it's not just a freak accident on a farm somewhere . You believe these fires are triggered by the warming of the ozone or the environment . Is that what you're saying ?
Speaker 1Oh , yes , yes , nothing else could explain why there are so many fires happening all over the world at unprecedented rates . Yeah , there's always incidents of arson lightning strike power lines also set off fires , but when you have all of these fires just going out of control , you know that there are really hot dry conditions and more extremes . That there are really hot dry conditions and more extremes Because when you have a global warming , which is caused because of all the burning of our fossil fuels , it's the greenhouse effect and that raises the average temperatures all around the globe and that creates more volatility in the system . So you're going to see more storms , more droughts , more heat waves and also more wildfires .
Speaker 2And these phenomenons can't be overlooked and just dismissed because they have a ripple effect . There's safety issues , health issues , right .
Speaker 1Oh , definitely . What's interesting is these fires are happening hundreds and hundreds of miles away from us , to the north , and yet , because of the prevailing winds , we're feeling the effects . That's happening in the west too . You have fires in California that their smoke is going across the Rockies and affecting the whole country , and this is a new phenomenon . It never used to be , but now that has become the norm , and so we're seeing now how interconnected the world is , and we have to worry about global warming , because something that happens in another part of the world will affect this part of the world .
Speaker 2In your new novel . This is your latest novel , right , the Doomsday Show . Yes , you're also mentioning in this book the sea level . There's some predictions out there that New York City is slowly collapsing because of the weight of some of the skyscrapers and that's causing the sea level to rise . Any thoughts on the rising sea levels ?
Speaker 1Yeah , rising sea levels are yet another effect of global warming . As we pump more carbon into the atmosphere and as the greenhouse effect slowly raises the temperature of the Earth , you're going to see more melting of the glaciers in both the Arctic and the Antarctic , and in the mountain ranges as well . And the real problem is when you have glaciers that are close to the sea and they begin sliding into the seas , as you're seeing now , especially in Antarctica . They're particularly worried about that because those glaciers down there are just enormous , bigger than whole states in America . There's always a natural process of glaciers sliding into the sea and then being built up on top , but right now the movement into the sea is greatly accelerated . It's almost like they're melting so fast that it's like a sliding pond . Now and that's the great worry that ice that was on land is now going into the sea and will melt , and that has the potential to raise sea level . It's already raising it at a rate of millimeters per year , but if it gets up to being centimeters per year , then we're going to see some real effects . It's definitely going to make storms that much more destructive , because another effect of global warming is making storms more intense Because , again , as the world warms , there's more energy in the atmospheric system and with more energy , there's going to be more volatility . The storms are going to be more intense and if , at the same time , the sea level is higher , then you're going to see these storms sweeping right into coastal cities , and I'm not making this up . This has happened in New York City In 2012, .
Speaker 1We had Hurricane Sandy and that swept into New York . It inundated Coney Island . It also really impacted the lower part of Manhattan Several of the apartment buildings and housing projects along the East River , where the electrical systems in the basements of those buildings were completely flooded . In Manhattan , all the power was cut off . South of I believe it was 26th Street . When you look downtown , the whole lower part of Manhattan was dark and it was a very eerie sight . That was a wake-up call for us too . Afterwards , people in the city government were saying what can we do now to prepare ourselves for the next storm ? And the next storm will probably be worse because , again , sea levels are slowly rising , storms getting more intense . The combination of those two things is really destructive for cities like New York .
Speaker 2There's over a million buildings housing 8 million people that weigh 764 billion kilograms , and it's causing New York City to subside at a rate of normally two millimeters a year . Lower Manhattan stands just one meter above sea level , so at the current rate , king tides could roll down its streets within a few short decades . It's something that's a very imminent threat , would you say .
Speaker 1Oh , yeah , you're right and I'm glad you mentioned the subsidence issue because you're right Cities with these huge buildings . They are slowly sinking . In Manhattan we have the bedrock in lower Manhattan , so that makes the problem a little less here . But you have cities like Jakarta , which is the capital of Indonesia on the island of Java , also on the coastline , and there the city is sinking at a really fast rate , partly because they've depleted the groundwater and again because of the weight of the buildings , and so there that city is just so regularly flooded that right now the Indonesian government is saying you know what ? We just have to build another capital city on a different island in Indonesia . There's really no way to save the city of Jakarta . That's the decision that they've made and that's scary because we're going to see that more and more People are going to realize if we don't stop global warming , we're going to have to abandon some of our cities on the coast .
Speaker 2That's mind-blowing , that a city , because Jakarta is somewhat of a metropolitan place with skyscrapers .
Speaker 1Millions of people . Yeah , it's by far the major city of Indonesia .
Speaker 2They're talking about relocating an entire city because they can't get ahead of this problem .
Speaker 1Right , and that poses its own problem , because you know a lot of people there don't want to go , and the plan is to move the capital city to the island of Borneo , which is also being devastated by deforestation . It's where the last of the orangutans live , and when you see things like that , you realize okay , this is just going to accelerate the process of global warming , because when you get rid of trees , you get rid of one main sinks for carbon . Trees do take in carbon , and when you cut them down , the carbon doesn't have anywhere to go and so it stays in the atmosphere and heats up the atmosphere . We're doing the same thing to the oceans . The oceans also absorb carbon dioxide and , as a result , they're getting more and more acidic as time goes on , and that , and the rising of temperatures , is contributing to the bleaching of all the coral reefs , and you can see this is something that's happening on a huge scale , very fast . It's getting worse and worse on an accelerating rate .
Speaker 2So my aim and my intention is really to inspire those that would be listening , particularly the younger generation , to find their voice for climate action , because , after hearing all these facts and all these things that are ongoing , it's hard to look the other way and pretend as if we don't have a problem
Combatting Carbon Emissions and Energy Crisis
Speaker 2on our hand . But let's continue to talk about this energy crisis , going a little further into what are some of the threats that carbon emissions pose to the earth .
Speaker 1Yeah , I'd like to talk just a little bit about my own personal connection with the issue , because I was a full-time journalist for most of my career and I was an editor at Scientific American for 10 years , from 1998 to 2008 . And that's when I really got educated on both the causes of global warming obviously the burning of fossil fuels and also the effects which we've been talking about . What can we do ? Practical steps to curb carbon emissions , to try to slow global warming by putting less carbon into the atmosphere , and one of the easy things that was true then , it's still true now is just conservation . Obviously , we should be using as little energy as we can . First of all , it's less expensive for us and secondly , it does help save the planet , and so using LEDs , for example , instead of incandescent light bulbs , buying the best , most efficient appliances . And then another thing that I really pushed for in my editorials in Scientific American was more of a force to increase the fuel economy of the cars in our fleet . There are standards they're called the CAFE standards . They're all about fuel efficiency for automobiles , and they really haven't improved enough . If you average the fuel efficiency of all the cars and SUVs and pickup trucks in the fleet , you would still only have about 25 miles per gallon , which is not that much better than the average fuel efficiency was 10 or 20 or even 30 years ago . Basically , this is the government's job is to mandate fuel efficiency , to tell the auto manufacturers okay , the average for all your fleets has to be higher . And so that was one of the things that I was pushing a lot in Scientific American .
Speaker 1The other thing I was pushing was doing something about carbon-burning power plants . When you burn carbon that produces more of the greenhouse gas emissions into the atmosphere than burning oil or natural gas , burning carbon is the worst , and so , really , carbon power plants should be phased out , and one way the government can do that is by saying okay , we have to provide incentives here for you to do that . We're going to penalize the carbon burning plants and we're going to favor plants using utility regulation , because the government does already regulate utilities , and so it can easily change the law in order to disincentivize the construction and operation of more of these carbon-burning plants . Some of this was proposed in the original climate bill . There was a climate bill passed last year , but you got to give the Biden administration credit because it was the biggest climate bill ever passed , but it was watered down . In its original form it did have stricter provisions for getting rid of the carbon burning plants .
Speaker 1When I was at Scientific American , I was constantly writing editorials saying we got to get rid of these coal burning power plants . But it was frustrating for me , because you can write editorials and news stories and then you don't see much progress , and so that's why I started writing fiction . I started writing novels about this , because I thought maybe that's another way to get through to people .
Speaker 2And reach a larger audience as well . But aside from your work as an author , you also propose an idea that may seem science fiction , but you suggest that
Innovative Solar Power Solutions
Speaker 2it is a reality . Can you tell me more about your solar energy idea and how likely it is to be implemented ?
Speaker 1Oh yes , you're speaking of the space solar power idea , yet this is featured in a short story that I wrote for Anthropocene magazine . They launched something called the Climate Parables , which is a series of short stories by science fiction authors , including myself and Kim Stanley Robinson , who is a legend in the science fiction field , and other authors , in which we focus on stories that dramatize technological solutions that could help alleviate the climate crisis . And the idea that I focused on is an idea that's been kicking around for several decades the idea of putting in orbit these huge solar power arrays . These are arrays of mirrors that could be kilometers wide that focus sunlight onto these photovoltaic arrays , which generate electricity from the sunlight , and then the energy is converted to microwave beams , and these microwave beams can be directed from this big solar power station in orbit down to ground stations , to receiver dishes on the ground , and then that energy can then be transferred back into electricity that goes into the utility gr ground , and then that energy can then be transferred back into electricity that goes into the utility grids . And this is an idea that's been kicking around in science fiction since the 1940s , when Isaac Asimov , the legend , the founder of science fiction he wrote a short story about it and people at NASA started studying the idea in a serious way in the 1970s and 1990s and they concluded this is a far-fetched idea because it's going to cost so much money to lift all of that material up into space and to construct this big solar power station in orbit . That was not really feasible back then , but now , with the advent of SpaceX and new rockets that allow you to take more stuff into space at a much lower cost , and also the advent of autonomous machines now robots that can construct and assemble the solar power station in space without the need for putting astronauts there , those two things make it a much more feasible idea and researchers have now returned to it and saying we could do this .
Speaker 1You could have just one of these solar power stations in space . See , in space there's no nighttime , because if it's like 20,000 miles above the earth , then it's never in earth's shadow . It can always be receiving sunlight on its mirrors and on its photovoltaic panels . It can always be generating electricity and actually sunlight is also more intense in space than it is here on Earth because it doesn't have to go through the atmosphere . There are some efficiency losses when you convert the power into microwave beams and then convert it back into electricity on the ground .
Speaker 1It's not like you could do this tomorrow you would still need to work out some technological problems but it is a real idea , and I thought it would make for an interesting short story to focus on this idea , because it's such a big idea and a lot of people would say that's crazy .
Speaker 1But the thing is , we've been messing up our environment now for hundreds of years . Ever since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution , we've been messing around with it and making it worse , and we've got to fix it now , in the next 20 or 30 years , because if we don't , it'll be too late . You're going to hit certain tipping points and the temperatures will rise to a point where we may not be able to recover so much of the wildlife and so much of the habitability even of parts of the earth , and so we have to do something soon . So we have to be able to consider big ideas to fix a big problem . And solar power stations in space that's a big idea , and I thought it would be . One way to promote it would be to write a fun short story about it .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's a big idea , but you believe it's an idea that is doable if the funding and the willpower is there to make it happen . So you mentioned conservation , you mentioned legislation for carbon emissions and companies that are using coal , these coal-fired power plants . What is their purpose ? Why are they burning carbon ? What do they do ?
Speaker 1They're producing electricity . They sell their electricity to the utility grids . A lot of them are in the Midwest and a lot of their emissions then sweep east with the prevailing winds and come to us here in New York City . But they also are raising temperatures on a global scale and that's the biggest reason why we need to phase those out . Unfortunately the coal mining industry it doesn't employ nearly as many people as it used to , because most of the industry has realized it's more efficient to burn natural gas and it's best to shift to renewable sources . So , for example , wind turbines and solar power farms . Solar power here on Earth has become much , much cheaper . There's an initial cost , obviously , setting up the solar power farms , but once they're in operation they can produce power a lot more cheaply than a coal-fired power plant . So there's good economic reasons to shift to the renewables as well .
Speaker 1The biggest problem with renewables that a lot of critics often point out is that their power is not always reliable , because obviously a solar power farm can't operate at night , a wind turbine can't operate when the wind isn't blowing and people will always need power night and day . So that's the reason why people say we have to continue burning natural gas , because otherwise , just to make up for the intermittency of these renewable sources and that is a problem that's something that we need to work on . But obviously the coal burning plants need to go . But unfortunately , let's face it , it's the Republicans who are fighting this , even though there aren't that many employees still in the coal mines , because it's a dying industry . The economy and the technology have passed it by and yet people are still sticking up for these politicians . It's really the politicians who are keeping these coal-fired plants alive when they should be shunted into the past alive when they should be shunted into the past
Challenges in Addressing Climate Change
Speaker 1.
Speaker 2Yeah , I'm glad you mentioned the political aspect of it and making sure that the next administration has that as the top of their agenda . You would agree with that that whoever assumes office next would need to have a strong focus on climate change ?
Speaker 1Oh yeah , there was many tragedies of the Trump administration , as we all know , but one of the biggest tragedies was that we backtracked on progress in dealing with climate change . Trump took America out of the Paris Accords , which was the agreement of all these nations to lower their emissions in order to slow down global warming . He also did nothing to improve the fuel economy of our cars . Did nothing to improve the fuel economy of our cars . He did nothing to try to shift the power industry away from coal and more toward renewable sources . Now , luckily in the Biden administration , now we're seeing climate progress again , and last year's climate bill has done a lot already . A lot of the bill funds new research . The reason why solar power and wind power is now cheaper than coal power is because of all the technological development and research that was done to come up with better materials for both of these things , to create better photovoltaic panels and better wind turbines . Research is really powerful . It stimulates investment .
Speaker 1I'm really glad the climate bill includes that . But another thing we need , for example , you mentioned switching to electric cars , which California is doing a fantastic job that is way in front of the rest of the country in mandating electric cars . It's great because California is such a large market that the way California goes , so goes the rest of the nation . But in order to facilitate a whole conversion of the fleet to go electric , we're going to need a lot more charging stations and the government is going to need to invest and encourage the development of that infrastructure , because we don't have nearly enough now . So I'm really hoping that we have another Democratic administration elected in 2024 , because otherwise , if we go back to a Republican administration , whether it's a Trump administration or a DeSantis administration or any other Republican administration we're going to see another complete stall in all this progress that we need to be making to curb global warming .
Speaker 2Yeah , and you wonder why they would want to be against something so vital to our existence . I'd like to play a quick clip and then get your thoughts on it .
Speaker 4London was hot boy 40 degrees , one of the hottest summers in history . After one of the hottest summers in history , some people can go outside . Plants were either dried up or on fire . Countries were either underwater or on fire . This extreme weather is only set to increase If crops die . That makes food more expensive , affecting working class communities , communities of color first . But what if and go with me on this what if climate change is just a symptom of a bigger problem ? And what if it is the same problem that causes racism and sexism and ableism ? What if all of these things are just symptoms of a bigger problem ? Ready White , supremacist , patriarchal capitalism . Capitalism it feels scary because it feels like a concept , even though our society is quite literally based on it Infinite growth with finite resources , at whatever the cost , those forms of oppression wouldn't exist if it didn't make someone money .
Speaker 2Pente Balagoon I hope I pronounced his name correct . He's an actor and he's an activist . He's really taking aim at capitalism , so what are your thoughts on that ? Is he right in saying that this problem is actually a symptom of a capitalistic society .
Speaker 1I can have lots of criticisms of capitalism no question that it has caused crimes beyond measure around the world but on the other hand , you can have a mixed system where capitalism is restrained by government so that it can't do some of the white supremacist , racist things that capitalism is currently doing . The government has to step in and say well , okay , we're not going to let you do that , we're not going to let you create AI programs that are racist because you program them using racist programmers . The government can't step in and restrain capitalism . It can tell them okay , you can't burn coal , we're going to penalize you for burning coal , we're going to incentivize you and maybe subsidize you . We will even give you money if you invest in renewables , but we're not going to let you burn coal anymore without paying a price for it .
Speaker 1Yeah , capitalism is to blame for so many of these problems , but when properly restrained and directed by government incentives and subsidies and penalties , then capitalism can achieve some of these goals in an efficient way . The price of solar power did go down tremendously over the past 25 years , partly because of government-funded research and also because of competition . People realize it's a good idea to invest in solar power now because it is cheaper than the other forms . I don't believe we have to get rid of capitalism entirely , because attempts to do that in the past have failed spectacularly , as the history of the Soviet Union has shown , and so it seems like a bargain with the devil . But I think government does have to work with business . It has to restrain business , but in the end it has to work with businesses to get this done . We need everyone from society government , businesses , everyday people . Everyone is going to have to contribute to this big society-wide effort to curb carbon emissions and slow down global warming .
Speaker 2I'd hate to cast a huge blanket over the entire Republican Party . I'm sure there are those in office that are trying to find solutions , but by and large the Republican stance is generally less government right , more freedom of enterprise and , I think for a lot of people , more involvement from the government . Regardless of what we're talking about , climate change seems like a tough balance to try and maintain in our society .
Speaker 1That's the shame of it that everything has gotten so politicized now . Basically the Democrats and Republicans . They're not working together anymore . They've become two warring tribes and anything that the Democrats will propose , the Republicans will be reflexively against it , even though it might help all the people who are voting for Republicans . The biggest victims of global warming are going to be the most vulnerable , poorest members of our society , which includes all the people in states like West Virginia or in Kentucky , in Oklahoma , in Kansas . These are the people who are going to be fighting the droughts here in New York City . I am a privileged person . With the bad air , I was able to stay inside my nice apartment and breathe through my N95 mask and I was fine . It didn't affect me as much as it affects a homeless person sleeping on the street who doesn't have a mask and he's breathing in this air . Or what about one of the delivery guys who has to be outside running back and forth in this ? These are the people who are suffering the most from climate change . It's always the poorest members of our society , the most vulnerable , who suffer the most , and that's the sad thing . Doing something about global warming can only help those people the most , and those are both Republican and Democratic voters .
Speaker 1Global warming should not be a political issue . Both parties should be committed to this , because it just makes sense . The fact is that , in the end , we'll save money by moving to renewables and greater conservation . If we fund the renewable industry , the United States will become the leading producer of this new technology instead of China , and so we'll benefit from that . It's just a win-win for everyone , these investments in renewable technology . I don't even think it's going to hurt the economy . It can only help the economy to move toward a new green economy , a new renewable economy , because that's where we're going , inevitably , that's where the whole world is going . The faster we get there , the better it will be for both the environment and the economy , and so I don't buy the argument oh , this is going to be bad for the economy .
Speaker 2No , going green is good for the economy , but if you follow the money when it comes to these coal power plants , do you think you can trace it back to some politicians ? Oh , definitely .
Speaker 1And here right now I'm going to criticize a Democrat okay , because I've been going on about the Republicans but there are some Democrats who have been stalling these climate bills as well , and the premier one is Senator Joe Manchin from West Virginia . He represents a state where there's still a lot of coal mining . They're not as much as there used to be , but still big coal interest . And what most people don't realize is Senator Manchin has big financial interests himself in the coal industry . He owns this company that sells this stuff .
Speaker 1It's called GOB , I think it stands for garbage of bituminous . It's not even coal , it's like , at a lower level , you could burn it , but it's even dirtier than coal . And that's what he sells to power plants . And he wanted to make sure that he could keep selling his garbage to power plants . And so he watered down the climate bill . But he was basically protecting his own coal interest . He just wanted to make sure that he keep making money from burning his garbage of bituminous . That's just the epitome of corruption . And so , yes , there are politicians who have vested interests in the fossil fuel industry , whether it's personal financial interests , like Senator Manchin , or simply campaign contributions from the industry , because the industry does put a lot of money into the campaigns of Congress One way or another . Yeah , they have a vested interest in keeping this old bad system alive when we should move away from it .
Speaker 2Just because you're a Democrat doesn't mean all Democrats share the same values . Is what you're saying ? Or they may have those values , but they're compromised .
Speaker 1Yes , definitely , there is a lot of corruption in American politics . Okay , so , bringing this full circle , you mentioned that there are some climate criminals . There are a few of them . Who are they ?
Holding Corporations Accountable for Climate Actions
Speaker 1The premise of this book was that the eco-activists are getting more frustrated about trying to accelerate the transition to renewable energies , and one group of extremists decides that the only way we're going to convince the fossil fuel industry to chain is we got to start assassinating the CEOs of all these fossil fuel companies until they actually commit to making a serious transition to renewable energy . And that's a pretty extreme tactic , but it starts happening in my book , and so , in the course of the book , I'm trying to explore what is acceptable as activism . People now we've seen people throwing soup at paintings and museums in order to express their outrage over the fact that we're not doing enough about climate change . And a lot of people saying is that an effective way of protest ? They're not actually damaging the paintings . In some case , they're protected by the glass in front of the painting . Yeah , it gets attention , but is it the right kind of attention ? Does it change people's hearts and minds in any way ? And so I really wanted to explore that issue . Naming names is a way to start , because certain companies obviously have done more to extract the fossil fuels that are then burned , and so you can quantify , okay , which company has done the most to put fossil fuels in circulation that are then burned and then contributed to the greenhouse gas effect and global warming . And at the very top of the list , which I got from a group called the Climate Accountability Institute , they identified the 20 companies that have produced the most oil and gas and coal which , when burned , produced the most carbon emissions into the atmosphere . And at the very top of the list was Saudi Aramco , because that is the oil gas company that is owned by Saudi Arabia , is owned by the government and it's controlled by Prince Mohammed bin Salman , who is the effective leader of Saudi Arabia right now , and so it's a state-owned company and they're the worst . So since 1965 , they've extracted all of this oil and gas and that has contributed more to global warming than any other company . But then , if you go down the list , you'll see American companies . You'll see ExxonMobil there , you'll see Chevron , you'll see European companies like Royal Dutch Shell , the French company Total , you'll see the Chinese National Petroleum Company , you'll see the Brazilian National Petroleum Company . It's around the world .
Speaker 1I'm not advocating my readers to go out and start killing the executives of these companies . I don't believe in that . We haven't got to that point yet . I don't advocate murder or sabotage , even I'm not at that point . But I do think that these executives of these companies and I list all 20 of those companies by name I believe that all the executives of these companies need to be called to account . They should be passing laws to encourage and force these companies to move to renewable energy instead of fossil fuel .
Speaker 1In terms of what the average person can do , if you know anyone who works for these companies , I would talk to them . I would say do you realize what your company is doing ? And if I wasn't getting enough of a response that way , I would not want to be friends with that person I would want to boycott that company's products . In a lot of cases that's hard to do , unless you can afford an electric car . Yeah , that's one way to boycott fossil fuels , but a lot of people can't afford . They're very expensive right now .
Speaker 1So it's hard to do an effective boycott of these companies . We live in a very monopolistic economy , but there's social measures . You don't have to be friends with these executives . You can shun them , you can make fun of them . These are all nonviolent ways of expressing our society's displeasure with what these climate criminals are doing , and so that is the kind of thing I do advocate , you know , in my book , and I do believe that humor can be a very effective tool to making it clear this is what our society wants and what it doesn't want .
Speaker 2But that being said , these climate criminals , how are they adapting to the effects of climate change ? Are they starting to minimize their impact ? Are they starting to make some changes in the right direction ? Are they just continuing to plummet the earth and destroy it ?
Speaker 1If you listen to advertisements from BP or these other companies , they're making a big deal of saying , yes , we're supporting the transition to renewables and a green economy oh , of course we are . And then if you look at their operations and you actually look at the numbers , yeah , they've committed some money to these projects , but the huge bulk of their operations are still extracting oil , gas and coal from the earth . That's called greenwashing . You're trying to whitewash the public into thinking that you're doing the green thing , and so that's called greenwashing , and a lot of that's going on .
Speaker 1Unfortunately , that's the way a lot of these companies have reacted to the climate issues . Let's tell the public all the things that we're doing and make them believe that we're really on their side , when mostly we're still doing business as usual . So that's one way that they've adapted to this issue . And , of course , that is infuriating , because activists , we have to constantly be calling them into account and say no , don't believe everything they're saying in their commercials . Look at their financials , look at their bottom line , and then you'll actually see if they're living up to their words .
Speaker 2Don't let them pull the wool over your eyes . Have you participated in or witnessed an extreme form of protest for climate change ? I'd love to hear about any experience you've had that you would consider to be somewhat extreme .
Speaker 1I participated in a lot of climate protests , but all peaceful . I'm a writer , which means I'm not a super daring guy . I shouldn't say that there are some writers like Hemingway who went out and did very daring , extreme things , but I'm not one of those types . I'm more of a retiring shy type and I haven't done anything extreme . I haven't ever thrown soup at a painting or even went to an executive's house to shout him down or anything like
Activism, Climate Change, and Hip Hop
Speaker 1that .
Speaker 1But , I do have friends who tell me about things that they've done , and one of my friends mentioned that a group of activists that she's involved with targeted the Blackstone Group . I don't know if you're familiar with that . It's like one of the largest investment funds in America . It takes money from investors , pension funds there's trillions and trillions of dollars involved and it invests in various companies , and they made a big deal of saying a few years ago , oh , we're going to move away from investing in fossil fuel companies , and that sounded great , right , it turned out to be another example of greenwashing , because if you look at the companies that they control or have large interests in , there's still a lot of these fossil fuel companies that are still burning fossil fuels at an accelerating rate , and so this investment group , the Blackstone group , really has not lived up to its promises , and so my friend's group of activists wanted to protest . So they went down to the Blackstone headquarters in Midtown Manhattan and they brought a whole bunch of dirty coal with them and they basically dumped it in the lobby and on the escalator in the building , and it got on the news a little bit , although , to tell you the truth , in New York City that's hardly news right , people are doing crazy stuff all the time and I don't know if it made it .
Speaker 1I knew about it just because my friend was involved and she said , oh , check out the video . And I checked it out . But did most people in New York City see it ? No , it did not get the attention that they wanted . A few people did get arrested there for trespassing and I admire their sacrifice . I really do . I guess they are doing the right thing . They're targeting a company that should be targeted . How effective was it ? That's the thing that I wonder about and that's the thing I try to explore in the Doomsday Show the frustration of activists who really want to do the most effective thing and they don't know at this point what to do .
Speaker 2Wow , new York . It's a huge city and there's a lot of cars , a lot of emissions , so I imagine there are groups out there trying to do something to make some changes . Is that happening out there in New York ? Are there a lot of environmental activists ?
Speaker 1Oh yes , even the New York City government and the state government are moving forward with some initiatives . I think the most interesting one is the congestion zone that they want to create . Basically , they want to create a zone in the lower part of Manhattan , so everything south of 60th Street . If your car enters that zone and they have these like E-ZPass type monitoring system to see if you cross over to 60th Street , then you will be charged a significant amount of money I think it's on the order of like $23 , right , so it's a lot and basically that money will then be billed electronically to your E-ZPass account and that money will be directed specifically to mass transit , because mass transit is one of the best ways to curb global warming Because , let's face it , trains can carry a lot more people efficiently than individual cars . Even if you don't really improve the technology of trains , it's still a huge benefit . So we should be spending as much money as we can on fixing up mass transit , making it as appealing as possible .
Speaker 1Ever since the pandemic , mass transit in New York City has seen big declines in ridership . A lot of people stopped taking the subway and the buses during the pandemic and they haven't returned to it . A lot of people now are working remotely , so they're not commuting at all , but a lot of people are also just avoiding the subway and the buses . So money taken away from motor vehicle drivers and give that money to mass transit , that's an effective climate tool . I think it's also a social justice tool because , let's face it , there's a lot of people who are just struggling , but , on average , motor vehicle owners probably have greater net worth than subway riders . That's just a fact , and so I think it's a social justice move as well .
Speaker 1This congestion plan was proposed several years ago , but you need all kinds of approvals because you've got to build the whole system , and a lot of politicians have come out against it . First of all , the Republicans hate it , because if the Democrats like something , the Republicans hate it . They see this as woke , right . Well , you want to take our cars away from us ? No , we don't want to take your car away from you . We want you to pay the proper amount of money that reflects how much your car is damaging the environment . Yeah , and also just congesting Manhattan . I don't know if you've ever driven in midtown , manhattan or downtown . The average speed is something like four miles per hour . It's ridiculous . So it's also good from a quality of life standpoint to have fewer cars coming into that part of the city .
Speaker 1It's not only the Republicans who have opposed this , I believe . Now the governor of New Jersey , who is a Democrat , who is considered a fairly liberal Democrat Murphy is his name . He's come out against it too because he's got constituents in New Jersey who don't want to pay an extra $23 every time they drive their cars into Manhattan , and so now he has come out against it . That's a significant political blow to whether this congestion plan will actually be adopted . Remember I said about politics being corrupt ? Yeah , the Jersey governor's . I'm not accusing him of financial improprieties , but he doesn't want to lose voters . He doesn't want voters angry at him . So a liberal Democrat has come out against a plan to do something about global warming , and that's always very disheartening when you see something like that .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's good to know that they're trying to do something about it . I wouldn't want to be stuck in four mile an hour traffic period , and so I think maybe if they can figure out ways to get that plan in action without that $23 fee , because that is $23 fee .
Speaker 1Yeah , sucks .
Speaker 1It's going to hurt some people who are not rich , who need to drive into the city .
Speaker 1Most of the drivers are fairly well-off people who can afford the $23 fee and should pay it , because you're already causing much more than $23 of damage to the environment every time you start up your car . So , really , if you're properly charging people for the damage they cause , the charge is justified . But I can understand how you don't want to hurt poor people with cars and so there's ways to get around that . There might be like an income tax credit where you can be reimbursed If your income is below a certain amount of money . Yeah , you should be able to get a reimbursement for those congestion fees that you have to pay every time you drive . There are workable compromises where we can limit the damage on the poor people in society , but I have to say the $23 fee that's the key to making this whole thing work , because you want to discourage too many people from driving and you also want to provide a new stream of revenue for mass transit , which can really use the revenue .
Speaker 2Wow , I want to close on this note . We talked about how climate change really impacts marginalized people , people that are living on the fringes , so to speak , and one genre of music that speaks for people of color , marginalized people , is hip hop . The thought comes to mind of how can hip-hop be a medium to protest and to speak for people in low-income communities as it relates to greening our earth and environmental justice . So , before I hear your thoughts on it , I want to play a quick clip , and then we'll end on that note .
Speaker 3We need climate activism to be mainstream . We need the fight against climate change to be cool . Let's try something different . Ladies and gentlemen , please welcome Myverse and Kristen Warren .
Speaker 5Dear children , hope you listen . This is Mother Earth from beyond your birth . I've been here when the sun emerged . I fed you from me for no love return To see you grow up and be underserved . In other words , let me nurture , nurture . Don't let him deceive . You're self-sufficient , cause you get it from me that light bill from the sun paid . Definitely don't let them hustle you your power , cause they're energy free . I gave mountains to guide you and rivers to ride through , trees to help you breathe . But don't seem to be mindful . The other creatures need you because they live here beside you , a mother's nation . Make sure that you fit for survival . Finish your greens . Eat less than your eyes do . Take the trash out . Be disciplined and recycle seasons getting heated , scolding y'all will be frightful . You gonna learn to clean your room when you live under my roof . Let's creatures fall and die wildfires in their eyes . Stop waiting for a sign .
Speaker 2So that was my verse talking about how hip hop can inspire climate action . Any thoughts on that ? Mark , I know you live in a very urban area . New York in general is just a melting pot . Any thoughts on how we can inspire a new voice of folks that are just as passionate as you are about climate change ?
Speaker 1Oh yeah , thanks so much for playing that clip . I'm going to look up that artist . I really love her line about you're going to clean up your room when you live in my house , which is good . That's the message we want to give people . Come on , you're not being adult here , this is the place where you live . I love that message . I'm all about trying to introduce this environmental message more into the culture and I try to do it in the books , hip hop and all kinds of music really would be fantastic if there were more songs about this , because songs would get into people's heads and hearts . This conversation makes me think that the climate movement could learn something from the civil rights movement .
Speaker 1I love that movie . It came out a few years ago . The movie called One Night in Miami , which was based on a real meeting of I believe it was Muhammad Ali and Malcolm X and Jim Brown and Sam Cooke , and they're all talking about this civil rights movement and how we all have to be involved in this . It's not just politicians and activists , it's the athletes , it's the artists , it's the singers , it's the everyday people , and the thrust of that movie was that Sam Cooke , as a result of this growing consciousness of the movement shifted .
Speaker 1What he sang about , what he wrote songs about because he started out his career singing mostly love songs , right , because that's what got him famous . But then he shifted and he wrote that great song Change Is . Gonna . Come and think about that song and how wonderful it is and how it got into so many people's hearts . I would say that song swayed more hearts than almost anything toward a recognition of the civil rights movement . Imagine if there was a song , either written in hip hop or any other genre , that could have a similar effect on people's hearts and their attention and their desire for change . If that could be done for the climate movement , that would be a wonderful step .
Speaker 2Wow , I love where you took that Mark . This has been great and I appreciate all the insights you gave and for coming on the Stuber Show . I'm excited to hear about what's next for you . Can you share with our listeners where they can learn more about your current projects or your next projects ?
Speaker 1Yes , yes , definitely . Go to my website . It's wwwmarkalpertcom . The Alpert is spelled with a P , it's like Herb Alpert the trumpeter we were talking about music earlier and the Mark is spelled with a K . So go to my website . I've written actually 11 novels and I have little descriptions of each book to get you interested in buying them . But also we're going to continue now , you and me , to do with the Climate Parables Project . I believe there's going to be more performances of all those stories , including my story Dodging the Apocalypse . More performances are going to be planned for that . And as for my next book , I definitely want to continue writing about climate fiction . It's funny .
Speaker 1I was thinking of taking it in a different direction , because you always want each book to be a little different , right ? And I was reading yesterday the Book of Revelation , because I've read it before , but not in a long time . It's the last book of the New Testament and it's wild . It describes the apocalypse . And I'm reading it now with new eyes because I'm so interested in climate fiction and a lot of things that John Patmos describes as going to happen during the apocalypse . They sound like climate change . He's talking about the rivers running dry , he's talking about the seas turning to blood and all the fish dying and I'm thinking , hey , this sounds very familiar , this sounds like what's going on right now , and so I'm thinking , maybe there's a way I can incorporate this into another climate fiction book . So that's going to possibly be my next project .
Speaker 2Oh man , I am here for it . Wow , so glad you teased that new novel . That's going to open up a whole new audience . Hearing how you expound on the reality of what's happening in the science world with the spiritual world , that's going to open up a whole new audience . Hearing how you expound on the reality of what's happening in the science world with the spiritual world , that's going to be very interesting . I hope so . You have my vote for it .
Speaker 1Okay , great , I got one reader at least .
Speaker 2Exactly All right , Mark . Thanks again , and hopefully you guys can get back to clearer skies . That would be the hope .
Speaker 1Yes , I hope so , and thank you , stu , for inviting me onto your podcast . I really appreciate it .
Speaker 2Thanks for listening . If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast , please share it with others , post about it on social media or leave a rating and review . To catch all the latest from me , you can follow me on Instagram at stuber underscore podcast . Thanks again and until next time . Keep your head up and eyes on the road .
Speaker 5Today's episode was brought to you by Lorraine's Cafe . Homemade , fresh , not frozen , family recipes from her kitchen to your plate .
