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The STUber Podcast
S1 | EP5: Church Unplugged: Spiritual Awakening Beyond the Pews
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Why do traditional churches struggle to connect with younger generations? Join me and special guest Cameron Crump as we discuss how the church can stay relevant to millennials and Gen Z, addressing issues like racial justice and the need for inclusive, life-focused teachings. We also explore the role of unconventional spaces in building community.
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Relevance of Church in Modern World
Speaker 1How do you expect people to respect the church , and they have been so disrespected by the church . At least Beyonce is doing what the church should be doing , which is talking about liberation . Church girl , be liberated , let it out , let it go for yourself . And a lot of individuals did that the night before they came to lead praise and worship and they killed praise and worship and y'all were still up , hands lifted , tears and snot sliding down your face and they gave it to you because last night they liberated themselves and they had their own church last night and they're able to bring you into something .
Speaker 2Thank you for stopping by the podcast . I'm your host , slash driver , or shall I say conductor , because today we're hopping on a soul train calling all Holy Ghost writers . Today's guest feels as if the church , the modern day church , is at a crossroads and could be in danger of falling off the tracks . Should be a good one , hop in , buckle up and let's go for a ride . Our guest today is none other than Mr Cameron Crump . A couple of credentials he comes with . He is the founder and the executive director of Unconventional Faith Community . He is program manager at Glide Memorial and he's also the creator and host of the new FaithCast Crossed Out .
Speaker 2I also see here , kim , that you've done some work with the public health sector for 15 years , addressing gender , sexuality , racial equity and inclusion . You also graduated from UCLA with an emphasis on African-American studies . The list continues to go on and on . You do some work with harm reduction . You do some work with the BTAN , where you've presented some research and some creative programs BT-Tan Bay Area , b-tan Bay Area . Yeah , you do some work with United States Conference addressing AIDS . Is that correct ? Hiv and AIDS . Yes , you've done some writing , it looks like , with an LGBTQ magazine , mused Mag Online . Mused Mag Online . So there's just so much to unpack here , and I'm just glad you joined me on the show today , cam . I appreciate it . That was pretty extensive of a resume , and so I can't wait to hear some of your thoughts on our topic .
Speaker 2What we're really going to try and get to today is figuring out ways that today's church can be relevant in a changing world . Ever since the pandemic , there's been some lack of participation , lack of interest . Folks are more going to Sunday brunch and having mimosas than they are attending church , and this has been a problem for the past few decades . Actually , it's been dwindling quite a bit . A couple of polls show that 47% of American adults are affiliated with the church , but in 1940 , 73% considered themselves affiliated with the church . One in five , or 21% , of people of color African-Americans identify as atheists , 33% of millennials and 28% of Generation Z identify as atheists . The church is in a spot now where people are not finding its relevance and finding other ways of exploring spirituality . Were you raised religious ? Were you raised spiritual ?
Speaker 1Yeah , as Sophia would say on the Golden Girls picture it , I was born into the apostolic faith , which is a holiness . It's very strict . My grandfather was the bishop , my father's a pastor , my mom's an evangelist the whole family's involved in church . The church name was the Upper Room Apostolic Church . So , yeah , I grew up in a home where it wasn't separated like church , and then home wasn't separated , it was very much all blended together . At nine years old my grandmother on my mom's side passed away . So my grandfather , who was the bishop , moved in with us . Okay , so that also made it even more religious right . So definitely was born on the pew . I came into this world 12 pm on a Sunday . My mom placed the organ and she went into labor . So yes , I was , like the saying , born on a pew . Yeah , so I was born on a Sunday . That's funny .
Speaker 2I know about those pews . Yeah , I know about those pews . I remember we didn't quite get pulled out to go to Sunday school so we had to sit on the pews and sit through church and my dad was a pastor himself and we had a small storefront church here in East Oakland , hole in the wall .
Speaker 2Yeah , and we had a small storefront church here in East Oakland , hole in the wall , yeah , okay , yeah . So it was a family vibe and , long story short , the church had to close . So we went church shopping and we went to different kind of congregations . We found one in Berkeley and I played the drums in my dad's church , okay , and I played in school we're talking about like second grade , third grade . The drums were sitting there , nobody was playing it and they had the choir up there . It's about 200 , 300 people congregation and I'm sitting there . He just , I got to get on those drums but I'm not appointed , I'm not called to be on drums at this church , as one Sunday they got the Holy Ghost party and I just I was like , forget it , and I just went to the drums , started playing the drums .
Speaker 2Did you rip started playing the drums and that memory sticks out in my mind about just having that urge .
Speaker 1That's wonderful because you had the urge , because for us it wasn't necessarily a choice . You know what I'm saying . It was like oh , you're going to play the drums , you're going to sing and sing in the choir . You're going to play the drums , you're going to be able to do whatever you need to do Run testimony service too . We might need you all over the place , and I think that was also because where we went to church , my aunts , my uncles , my cousins , my brothers , we all were there you know what I'm saying At the same church . So it was like , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2No , I was forced to do some things . I remember my dad used to have us preach and I don't remember what I was preaching . I was preaching the ABCs , who knows . But now that you shared about your apostolic roots , what's your journey now ? How has it changed over time ? Are you still a part of that tradition ?
Speaker 1No , there are some things that I hold for myself . There came a time where I had to develop my own spirituality , just in reflection . There was a time I just felt like I wasn't being loved as much as they preach love . I remember one particular time . I was 14 years old and it was summertime , so I was at home and during that time my grandfather had a caretaker . I could tell she probably felt the energy of me Right , and so she asked my dad one day . They were in the kitchen and I was on the other side of the kitchen wall . She had asked my father what would you do if one of your sons were gay ? I'm the youngest of three boys and he was like I don't know what I would do . I would either try to kill them or kill myself . That , to me , was a turning point in my life where I was like , oh my gosh , if my dad thinks this , then God must think this , because I know God through my dad . I look up to my dad . So I had certain experiences during that time that pushed me away from the church .
Speaker 1I always say to people your faith follows behind you . It doesn't stay there . It follows behind you because it's yours , it belongs to you . It was about me owning my faith . This belongs to me . It's not about other individuals' opinions . I need to go and develop this for myself . Moving to Oakland 15 , 16 years ago , that's when I started to develop my faith and started to groom it on my own and of course , there were ups and downs mountain highs , valley lows , of course and it just took time for me to own that . I still hold to some things . I always hold to my grandfather saying take the meat , leave the bones . I don't hold to things like men shouldn't have long hair , which is why I grew out my hair . We couldn't wear shorts , the ladies couldn't wear makeup , they couldn't cut their hair , they had to wear skirts . There were so many different rules , regulations around living life and how you show up in that space that was more important than developing your faith , and so a lot of those things I don't .
Speaker 2Your faith stayed . You didn't turn your back on faith or reject God . Do you think most people take that approach , or do they become ?
Speaker 1atheists was one of those individuals that were from 13 all the way up to 18 , like praying get this out of me . All these other things At the same time . I still kept going . Even once I was like this is a gift , this is , cameron . Getting to that space helped me grow more and lean more into my faith . Some people choose to say you know what , I ain't fooling with that . And then there's some that are like I'm not fooling with you , you individuals over there . So I think it's just different for everybody and I don't think there's a right or wrong way . It's just about what makes you happy , what makes you navigate life where you're fully happy .
Embracing Spirituality Through Everyday Life
Speaker 2You mentioned some valleys and some mountains . Can you tell me what were some of those mountains or valleys in that process of trying to take ownership of your faith ? Loneliness .
Speaker 1Okay , having to take time to look internally and process life and process life . Also , learning how to value when things are hard and tough and you don't have people to reach out to because a lot of people don't want to be associated with you . They're worried about what other people may think if they are associated with you or helping you out , those channels are closed . So it taught me how to be resourceful , and that's one of the things I'm very passionate about . When it comes to faith and justice , people need resources and you have to separate the two . It's not about what you think and how they should do things . Be a resource . It's okay to help people out .
Speaker 2I want to connect all of that to faith and the role of the church and being a safe space . As I mentioned at the top of the show , a lot of millennials , generation Zers , are going to the church of Netflix and chill are going to the gospel of TikTok . I'm just using some buzzwords . But that connection with the church according to a lot of Gallup polls , a lot of data is suggesting that it's not like it was for our parents and for us . Yeah , the ones after us are just not showing up . I'm interested in knowing what do you think are some factors that may be contributing to this decline ?
Speaker 1We're tired of fear-based theology .
Speaker 1We're over it . We want to come to a space where we leave feeling empowered . We don't want to hear a sermon as to how hot the hellfire is going to be and why it's going to be hot or why we're going there . What do we need to do to keep from going there ? No , we want to talk about now . We don't want to talk about when Jesus come . We want to talk about what we're dealing with now . We're dealing with having to navigate the world in our black bodies . We're having to deal with injustice from police officers that were signed to protect us Right , but they're not protecting us . We want to talk about those things . We want to leave empowered . We want to live in peace . We want to live happy . We want to get our money up and get to the bag . We want to talk about how can we do those things , and I think the church should be doing those things right .
Speaker 1I think we're tired of fear-based theology . We're tired of living in silos . A lot of churches are like don't go to clubs , don't go to parties , don't do these things , live your life this way , and we're over that . One of the things that I seek to do as a faith community is . I seek to work with club owners and individuals that curate day parties and put these events on , because those individuals curate a space for us to have community . So why would I keep people from trying to go to clubs and go to day parties and having another form of church ? I would say let's buy some tickets , let's make sure we support whoever's putting this on and actually have community .
Speaker 1The church can be like oh , be in silos , don't do that , don't let anybody catch you over there . You know what I'm saying . And it's late , it's and by late it's old . You know what I'm saying ? Retire that , that theology , that way of thinking . It's just old . We want wings on our backs now . We want to address why is housing so high ? We want to address putting a roof over our head . How can we maintain ? These are things we want to talk about the now . If you have your CME saints , your Christmas , mother's Day , easter saints that just come on those special days , a lot of times they come to a sermon about what happened on the cross and the nails . These things are good to hear , but we're experiencing certain things right now that we want to be empowered to move past .
Speaker 2So the voices that are being heard need to change their tone . They're not addressing some of the racial injustice , some of the white supremacy issues , some of the oppressive issues that are happening . So you're saying that whole theology would have to change in order to draw and lure millennials and Generation Zers back in . You also mentioned something about being more goal oriented , that we want to get to the back . Now you feel as if the church is not making that connection .
Speaker 1Let's take , for example , when I stopped going to the church and I moved to Oakland and I got those Sundays , oh my goodness , I was like Sundays it's like the best day , because I grew up feeling like Sunday was another work day , right , because we would start service at 10 and we'll be in church till two , three o'clock and then have to be back at seven . Then getting these Sundays and getting older and then starting to go to brunch making sure my laundry was done , I'm like , oh my goodness . This is why I'm probably cranky on Mondays , because it was like a work day on Sunday . Other people have rested . They got their week going , they got prepared for their week , but I spent time , hours , in church and never took time to rest and just prioritize self-care . And so a lot of people are like I want to prioritize myself , I want to prioritize self-care , I want to talk about my finances and because the cost of living is so high , we spend a lot of hours working , trying to get money and then also trying to do things for ourselves , start businesses .
Speaker 1Faith does play a role in that and the church can be a pillar in that . But we're talking about so many other things and not life things . Now we're talking about heaven . We're talking about when Jesus comes . We're talking about so many other things and not life things . Now we're talking about heaven , we're talking about when Jesus come , we're talking about all those other things , but where are we in the conversation of self-care ? How do you want your life to look like now ? While you're here ? What are you doing when you're grieving or you experienced trauma ? Those type of conversations I think we can have , but a lot of people don't like to have conversations that are outside of the Bible .
Speaker 2I would definitely think that the Bible can be made relevant . Theology can be made super practical . My prayer every day is pretty much make it practical , make it plain . Yeah , let's listen to a little clip that I think ties into what we're talking about here . It's from Lizzo . She's going to describe the reason why she thinks twerking needs to be something we need to take ownership of and not let it be appropriated , and I'll tell you why I brought it into our conversation in a sec . So let's take a listen to this .
Speaker 3I want you to know where twerking came from . I think everyone should know where everything comes from . You should know where your food and water come from . You should know where your clothes come from . It's important to me to keep the origin story of twerking alive . So here's some far on the table for that ass .
Speaker 3Modern-day twerking derived from black people and black culture . It has a direct parallel to West African dances like Mapuka . Traditionally , Mapuka was a dance for West African women to be used as a celebration of joy , religious worship , or a dance to do at a wedding to show you were DTF or DTM . Down to Mary . Down to Mary , Get your mind out the gutter . Down to Mary , Down to Mary , Get your mind out the gutter . Black women carried these dances across the transatlantic slave trade to the ring shout in what became the Black American Church and to the hips of Ma Rainey and Bessie Smith when they sang the blues into the bounce of Josephine Baker's banana dance . From jazz dance to jitterbug , from shake your tail feather to shake your thang , to that th that thing thingin' . Black people carried the origins of this dance through our DNA , through our blood , through our bones . We made twerking the global cultural phenomenon it has become today .
Speaker 2I chose to include that clip from Lizzo because she's talking about how to embrace the way that spirituality is expressed through dance . Yeah , and twerking is tend to be thought of as more of a freaky sexual thing to be done , but she mentions that the origins of it started with African roots and has a lot to do with celebration and ties into manifestations of worship in church . What are your thoughts on that ? How important is it for us to understand the origins of a lot of things that we do in our culture and connect that to faith ?
Speaker 1There's a lot of things we hear are negative or sexualized , but historically they're
Modern Church Relevance and Inclusivity
Speaker 1rich . This book that I really like is called Queer Magic . They talk about individuals that were gender fluid and how they can recognize them and raise them separately from their tribe in sub-Sahara Africa because they were deemed as gems . They would raise them up a certain way . They would have individuals go to them for counseling and go to them for spiritual needs . But now when you talk gender fluidity in faith spaces , oh no , you gotta be this way a certain way and they have their opinions on it . And it's scary too , because if we're not taking the time to do our own research for ourselves and we just keep prioritizing these opinions , then we continue to perpetuate the stigma . I like that she spoke up and gave some history and some background .
Speaker 2That probably opened a lot of individuals' eyes and having a well-rounded social , historical , cultural understanding of the Bible that's going to open up a liberating move for faith congregations so that they're not continuing to preach their pet doctrines or their pet theologies . To that end , we have another bishop who came for your girl , beyonce . I love Beyonce she got herself in some hot water . She grew up in the church . Yes , she did , and I love Beyonce . I think she knew what she was doing when she made that song , church Girl . It's my jam .
Speaker 1Is that your jam ? I like that song . It's not my favorite song on the newest record , but I love that song yeah .
Speaker 2We're going to talk about why you like it in a second , but this preacher did not like it . Let's hear what he has to say .
Speaker 3Pray to God that a stiff denunciation of what she did with that song is put out it shows that we're not speaking up . Don't nobody respect the church . The world don't respect the church , so you can't win the world enamored by them .
Speaker 2Oh , man Got some amens on that one , yeah what are your thoughts there ?
Speaker 1First of all , I would like to know how do you know about the song , sir ? He got his ear to the street , he got his ear to the street .
Speaker 2He said prior to that soundbite . He said that he wanted to play it for the congregation , but then , after listening to it , he could barely get through the song .
Speaker 1I'm sure he got through that song and a few other songs , so true huh . First of all , it is a liberating song and she sampled the Clark sisters . The Clark sisters didn't have a problem with it . For him to say the world doesn't respect the church , how do you expect people to respect the church and they have been so disrespected by the church ? At least Beyonce is doing what the church should be doing , which is talking about liberation . Church girl , be liberated , let it out , let it go for yourself . And a lot of individuals did that the night before they came to lead praise and worship and they killed praise and worship and y'all were still up , hands lifted , tears and snot sliding down your face and they gave it to you because last night they liberated themselves and they had their own church last night and they're able to bring you into something . It's just a waste of time . The time that he spent talking about one track on that album is time he could have spent empowering someone to go out afterwards and be their best self .
Speaker 2So are you more concerned about the content of what he said or about the fact that he wasted the congregation's time when he could be speaking a liberating word ? Both , oh , okay .
Speaker 1I think it's both Okay . What's wrong with it ? You can't control what people do , so why do you have to make it about being a respect or disrespect thing towards the church ? I don't think a lot of people listen to that song and sexualize it . People listen to that song and be like man , let it out . Oh , I've been going through this . I don't have people I could talk to . I've been raising child . Let me liberate myself . It could have definitely been discussed and brought to that space in a different way if you wanted to bring it to that space in a different way if you wanted to bring it to that space .
Speaker 2So the church letting its hair down a bit so that it can be of greater impact on people's lives and connect with people's lives . That's what I'm gathering here , but then there are those , I'm sure , that would argue I was reading the book of Ezekiel this morning that the church has somehow played the harlot to some degree . And that is going to be the debate here is you've got your holiness church , but then you've got those who are on the other end which is open spaces , inclusive spaces .
Speaker 2I can hear people listening to this podcast mad on one end , joyful on the other and you're doing a great job of trying to bridge those two together . Your mission statement part of it says you want to help folks explore faith in ways that boost mind , body and soul in a non-traditional way . It sounds like you're trying to explore spiritual practices that go beyond traditional religious practice .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2So what might some of those ?
Speaker 1practices include . One is community outside of four walls . Okay , one of the practices I like to do is partnering with individuals that curate these spaces . For individuals to come together , that's a big deal . I encourage individuals to go out and be in community with people and be outside of these traditional walls that we usually come to and gather and then also trying to bridge the gap with health and wellness . There are times that we can come together as community doing yoga and listening to certain music . We can gather as a community and go hiking . There's ecotherapy , where individuals go to a land of the Ohlone tribe . Those are spiritual moments . Those are the things that we want . You know what I'm saying ? That's what we're looking for . We're not looking for people to talk about track number four on Beyonce's album . We want to be empowered . We want to leave a space or leave a moment , feeling motivated , feeling inspired . That's church to me . That's church to me .
Speaker 2These non-traditional ways , the eco one , that sounds interesting . These things need to happen . Churches need to be more holistic .
Speaker 1Is what you're saying those church moments outside of church , day parties , communities and yoga moments they're all tools . There's so many other tools that we can use than being in a space where , again , we're using fear-based theology .
Speaker 2This conversation opened up a can of worms , but also I think it tore down some barriers , and it is certainly one that needs to be had . We're going to close on this note . We've said a lot of things that may speak not necessarily negatively , but critical of the church . Yeah , there's been some numbers we've thrown out there that talk about the waning participation levels in the church . But , on a positive note , particularly when we talk about the African-American church , a lot of believers and a lot of millennials now , because people are saying , hey , there is a social justice message embedded in the Bible , they're turning to the black church to bring that out . I have a quote here . It says black emerging generations still have faith in the core of the black church . Because of this , authenticity and inclusion are both necessary . Don't make the assumption that you're winning young souls to Christ . Instead , show emerging generations what followers of a risen Christ looks like in the midst of the turmoil that exists today . Nice .
Speaker 1Yeah , beautiful
Personal Church Engagement and Empowerment
Speaker 1. I'll forever be willing to go to a church and I'll be on the front row . You know what I'm saying . But I also am in the space where I know how to , as my grandfather , bishop lewin , would say , take the meat and leave the bones . And so it's good to be a gatekeeper for yourself or a filter for yourself . Nice , do what's going to empower you , wow .
Speaker 2Man , I'm going to leave on that note . I love what you just said Be a gatekeeper for yourself . That's a good one . Thanks for listening . If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast , please share it with others , post about it on social media or leave a rating and review . To catch all the latest from me , you can follow me on Instagram at Stuber underscore podcast . Thanks again and until next time . Keep your head up and eyes on the roof .
