We’ve spoken with so many incredible guests during the first year of People, Pets, and Purpose! In the last episode of the year, we’re taking you back through some of our favorite moments. These episodes include philosophers, entrepreneurs, influencers, animal welfare professionals, fellow podcast hosts, and people who have been impacted deeply by their pets. It’s been a great year of celebrating and exploring the human-animal bond, and what really matters — and we’re so grateful to our guests and you, our audience, for being on this journey with us. Cheers to the first year of PPP!
Find Human Animal Support Services Online:
We’ve spoken with so many incredible guests during the first year of People, Pets, and Purpose! In the last episode of the year, we’re taking you back through some of our favorite moments. These episodes include philosophers, entrepreneurs, influencers, animal welfare professionals, fellow podcast hosts, and people who have been impacted deeply by their pets. It’s been a great year of celebrating and exploring the human-animal bond, and what really matters — and we’re so grateful to our guests and you, our audience, for being on this journey with us. Cheers to the first year of PPP!
Find Human Animal Support Services Online:
Welcome to a special episode of People, Pets, and Purpose, a show about the human-animal bond and what really matters. I'm Diaz Dixon, the Maddie's Advisor for External Affairs and Partnerships for the Human Animal Support Services Project. We've had the privilege of speaking with a lot of incredible guests this year, and I cannot believe how fast this year has gone by in the first year of this podcast. These guests have included philosophers, entrepreneurs, influencers, animal welfare professionals, even fellow podcast hosts, as well as many other people who have shared stories and insights that keep me thinking long after the conversation is over. A lot of these stories have really resonated. And so we're going to look back today on some of the most powerful moments that we had in the past shows. This is just a taste of what we've heard and explored so far. So, I hope you'll go back and listen again to some of these full episodes, and pass the word along. Because that's what it's going to take; having great conversations about these things are so meaningful. We're extremely grateful to each and every one of our guests, and to you, our audience for being on this journey with us. So here we go. Here's some of our favorite moments from People, Pets, and Purpose in our first year. Vincent Medley is the Maddie's Director of the HASS project, he's our fearless leader, and he's also a really good friend of mine. So this episode was not only endearing for me, it was a, it was a lot of fun. But listening to Vincent, through the power of storytelling, talk about how he would do things differently, but it was his knowledge and his growth that helped him to become more evolved in the world of animal love. So take a listen to this. It's a, it's a great story, and it makes you think of where you were compared to where you are today.
Vincent Medley:I will tell you this, so, there was an experience right before I started with animal, in animal control in the city of Dallas, where I worked in community programs as an AmeriCorps member. And for those who don't know, that's, like the domestic Peace Corps. And so, we, we worked in, you know, a neighborhood that, you know, is underserved. And we were also working with, part of this was a major project, and part of that major project also involved Habitat for Humanity building homes. And it was like, and so they, so one of the homes they built was for a group of us to come into the neighborhood and create community programs. But, you know, and so that's what we did, you know, four of us lived in this house, and we created community programs. But one of the things I noticed when I was in this particular neighborhood, was there was dogs running everywhere, Diaz. I mean, like, I mean, they were, and one of the first things I said to myself was like, where's the human compassion for these animals just running around? Now, I'm going to tell you a story that is something that I would do differently if I did it now. But what we decided we were going to do, all four of us, is we decided that we were going to get these animals that are running loose adopted to people that, that were working on the houses for Habitat for Humanity. They know, they knew we didn't have much money, they started sponsoring animals, we started taking the animals to get, you know, to the vet, to get licensed with the city. And when you, when I think about it from the outside, I'm like, wow, man, we really did, you know, knowing what I know now, you know, back then I thought, man, yeah, we're really doing well by those animals. But you know what we left out of that equation, and I'm sure you can guess, that animal had a family. Right? And there's reasons that we were not aware of that those animals, that animal was running loose, and in our naivete, which, unfortunately, not only was it our naivete, it was a committee of people's naivete. And also, the sense that these animals deserve better than this neighborhood. We were redistributing animals from a neighborhood that people would consider underserved or poor. And sending them off with you know, well, you know, to be frank, with the rich white people to have a better life. You know, they and so, um, and, and learning, knowing what I know now, you know, that, that, while it sounds like a great ending for the animal, and probably was in a lot of cases in terms of, in terms of endings, or it caused a lot of suffering in the community, people whose animals didn't come back home. Right? And, and, some might have thought, you know, yeah, this is probably better for them. Because we didn't get any trouble. Nobody ever said anything to us about it. But part of that, I think, is, was the idea that, you know, I'm not good enough for this animal, which, how disempowering is that for a community to be consistently sent that message that, that you're not worthy of a pet that you've selected, and this part of your family. And so, you know, we, I really have dedicated a lot of my career, especially the second half of my career, to creating a more empowered community and doing that through the messaging that we send by how we interact with people who have pets, no matter what their circumstance is.
Diaz Dixon:Yeah. You know, it's interesting that you tell that story, because it really illustrates how systemic issues continue to fall like dominoes.
Vincent Medley:Yeah.
Diaz Dixon:We look at a lot of communities, and we say, this is what a responsible dog owner, that pet owner should look like. There are these preconceived notions that we set up, and then we take things away from people because they're not good enough. And that, you know, and it comes, it really hurts the relationships that we have with marginalized communities. And we wonder, well, why don't they trust the healthcare system? Why don't they trust animal welfare? Well, because they're constantly being beat down in ways that we think we're doing something in a positive manner, but there's a negative effect on the other side of that. And it's, it's a, a great story that reminds us that we need to always be looking at big picture. That's, that is, and so that we all have the capacity to learn and grow and change. Because here, you are now telling the story from a different perspective than you did, you know, years ago. This next clip that you're going to hear came from an interview that I had with Morgan Hultquist, who is the Manager of Strategy and Impact for Meals on Wheels America. We all know who, and what Meals on Wheels does. And what was really interesting is looking at how big they are across the country, and the amount of people they impact, but the importance that they see in the animal-human bond, and the struggles that people are having. So, listening to her from the human support service perspective, talk about animal welfare is really powerful. Tune in. Do you have any stories or anything that you know directly with people that you've gotten to know through your work? The ones who really drive home to you why this particular work is important?
Morgan Hultquist:Absolutely, I think it's, having that data is so key and kind of those great research statistics that you can share, but also having those kind of quotes and stories of, of real life situations just is, is critical and paints the needs so well. I could probably share 100, but I will keep it fairly short today. There's one quote that I wanted to share. I think these really just are so heartwarming, but also just demonstrate the importance of this programming again. So we had one client with the senior services of Alexandria, they're Alexandria, Virginia, and they shared, "This program is magnificent and a lifesaver. They, being Senior Services of Alexandria, provide whatever my dogs need. And they're caring and genuinely concerned about what happens to my dogs as they age. The program has really stepped up by helping me pay for veterinary bills. There's no way I could afford the cost without their help, I believe I would have lost them months ago if it had not, not been for them paying the bills." So, going to that access to vet care piece, just the importance again of being able to keep a pet stated so, so clearly in a client's words. What I find really inspirational is these client stories and these client quotes, but it's also the work of Meals on Wheels providers and just their dedication to finding partners and expanding services. I just wanted to mention a few, and when we have programs who are of massive size, Meals on Wheels of Metro Tulsa last year donated, excuse me, delivered over 250,000 meals to 1,300 pets in 2022, which is crazy. And on the access to vet care front, Meals on Wheels Central Texas, which is of course based in Austin, they provided medical care to 325 pets, also last year. It's great because I get to see these big examples of these programs that are just meeting these huge numbers, and just their impact is so impressive, but I'm also equally impressed by smaller programs who have clearly worked so hard to really garner their community resources. So, one of those is your now-regional community center in Reno, Arizona. They are in a town of about 700 people, their partnerships are so impressive. With their access to veterinary care grant funding, which was provided last year, they served 35 pets in their community. So, the day-to-day work is, is no joke.
Diaz Dixon:That's super impressive, Morgan. I mean, think about it, like, there are a ton of things being prevented, just by giving this assistance to people and their pets. You know, everything from preventing people having to give their pets up, to possibly preventing depression, social anxiety, all the positive things that pets can give them. And then also having, you know, healthy pets! Well, most of you guys out there know by now, if you don't, I'm a total bird nerd. So I got a little excited to do this particular interview with Maya Higa. She's the live streamer and founder of Alveus Sanctuary. It's super cool to see someone, particularly quite a bit younger than I am, who is super powerful and diving in and making changes and being inspirational in the world of animal rehabilitation. Listen to this young, powerful superstar. And what inspired you? Like, what was the big key inspiration to founding an animal sanctuary?
Maya Higa:So, it started with the falconer thing online, right? So I was rehabilitating a red-tailed hawk. And his name was Bean. And I showed him on stream and I showed a lot of his rehabilitation process. So they were seeing short flights, they were seeing long flights, and they eventually saw his whole release, as well, into the wild, back into the wild. And that experience as a whole, I mean, people were making fan art of this bird, they wanted merch of this bird, like, they loved him. And seeing that on such a large, global scale, because when you're online, you can teach people that are in the U.K. and people that are in Brazil, and whatever. And seeing what I was doing in person in a classroom full of kids, you know, you kind of see their eyes light up when they like an animal or they learn something and that's very special. But seeing it on such a large global scale, I was like, "This is, I gotta do this. And I have to do it for as many animals as I can until I die." So, that's where it started.
Diaz Dixon:Now, folks, I think one of the things I really enjoyed was Leanna Taylor, from The Arizona Pet Project, she really talked about the judgment towards owners, and how they didn't like that in the welfare industry. She also digs deeply into the unsheltered populations, and issues they have in putting the health of their pets before their own. Take a listen.
Leanna Taylor:So I got into this industry about 10 years ago, and this was really before a lot of these conversations around owned animals and sort of shelter prevention and keeping people and pets together. One of the things I was really struck by was the amount of judgment that I saw being directed toward pet owners that maybe didn't look like our industry, which if we're being really honest, is predominantly white, is predominantly middle to upper income. And, it was surprising and it was disappointing, because, again, we know that animals exist in every corners of our community. And my personal belief is that if you need and enjoy the companionship of animals, that you should have the ability to experience that. And as I got further into this work, what I found to be so clear, is that often the people who struggle to care for their pets the most are also the ones that need their animals the most. And so we really, as an organization, decided to take a very active role in confronting some of those judgments and prejudices that exist in our industry, and making sure that we're real advocates for people who are struggling with their day-to-day existence, but who love their pets. And that quote that you quoted was from an article that we wrote specific to our unhoused community, which here in Maricopa County is very large and growing by the day. I think, you know, our unsheltered population is a perfect example of that relationship between humans and animals. That, you know, their needs are often, the animal's needs, placed before the people. So how is, how do we as an organization advocate for those individuals? How do we encourage our industry to begin advocating for those individuals and their animals?
Diaz Dixon:This was a really moving episode because I had an opportunity to interview Mark Castaneda, who was a young man who has experienced homelessness and battled with addiction, as well. And it was Jelly Bean, his pitty who saved his life. So, I want you to listen in, this is a long clip, but you're gonna understand why purpose is so important with People, Pets, and Purpose. Were you worried while you were living out on the streets, that you wouldn't be able to take care of her? Or was that never even a thought?
Mark Castaneda:Well, there's, there's, there's two answers to that, I think. So, taking care of her was the number one priority. Always. She ate before I did. She, when it was hot out, or when I needed to go across town, I did not have her run alongside the bike, I pulled her in a cart behind my bike because I didn't want her pads to get hurt. You know, she was always, always taken care of. But, you know, on the, on the other end of that, the fact that I was concerned about taking care of her was part of my, was really a part of my transformation. How she inspired me, can I, can I share a story?
Diaz Dixon:Oh, please. Please!
Mark Castaneda:Okay, so um, there was this one day, she was, I'd only had Jelly Bean for a few months, so she was still a fairly small dog. And, and one morning, we woke up, we left our little campsite. And we went to the other side of town, where there was an outreach center that was providing breakfast and then later on lunch. So we were there for most of the day. When, when it started getting dark, we went back to our spot. And the city had come through and cleaned out everything. They had cleaned out, the tent, our blankets, the clothes, all of the dog food, I mean, cleaned out everything. And, and I was just, I was devastated. You know. Here we go. Again, we had to reset again. And, so now it's getting dark, and it's getting late. So we make our way over to this gas station. And I'm sitting on the curb and it was so cold that night, it was so cold. And I just remember, like her shivering. I remember her shaking from the cold, she was still young. And I had her in my lap, and I'm trying to put my arms around her just to keep her warm, you know, just to ease her suffering a little bit. And I didn't even have a jacket on myself. Everything was gone. Not to mention one that I could wrap around her. And I just, I felt so helpless. You know, I was I felt so, so helpless. My best friend, you know, this, this this new love of my life was sitting here and I couldn't do anything. And you know, this is a, this was a pivotal moment for me. I, I leaned in to that little dog with you know, tears, tears in my eyes and I promised that dog I told her, I am so sorry, and you will never have to go through this again. And you know, things, things were different after that, the more, the more that I took care of her, and the more that I loved her, the more I was able to take care of myself, the more I was able to learn to love myself again. I do want to be clear here is that there are significant barriers to finding shelter when you have a pet and, and for Jelly Bean, who had become a key player in my emotional, mental, and behavioral health, you know, going somewhere without her was not an option. I had the wherewithal to know that I'm doing better as a, as a person when she is with me. And, and so I did not want to lose that. So it took time, it took some time. But I found a small church in South Stockton called Hope Ministries, run by Pastor Valerie Frazier. And she was the only place that we could find at all that was willing to take us in. And forever grateful for that. And I think I'd be remiss if I didn't say, thank you, Jesus. But so...
Diaz Dixon:That is awesome. You just really summed up in a beautiful way, Mark, the importance of the human-animal bond. And you even, I mean, everything that this show encompasses, when we talk about people, pets, and purpose, you talk, you, the two of you giving one another purpose. It's so inspirational, thank you for you know, you're telling the story, and I'm over here welling up, it is so powerful. And it's sad at the same time when we think about the lack of resources that are out there, because there are a lot of organizations that are like, yeah, we want to help you, but you got to get rid of the pet, you got to, you know, find a different place for the pet. And we, we, we need to continue to have the conversation about how it's important to take care of the, this animal-human bond as a whole. In the next powerful episode that we're going to talk about here, Kassidi Jones, an anti-racist animal advocacy influencer, is, had a really powerful story and message. And we talk really heavily about social justice issues, and how all these issues are, belong to all of us. And we need to really work on them together and take a look at it as a whole. Take a listen to this. This is a really powerful young woman.
Kassidi Jones:I think I was thinking of the animal industry, more separately from, I guess, human, human rights issues, social justice issues in the human world, where more and more I see all of these issues as interrelated, and therefore think the solution to our problems are going to come from working together across species specific efforts and movements. I think...I forgot the beginning of the question. Sorry.
Diaz Dixon:You're, you're going right down the, you're talking about your own evolution and your thinking, this is perfect. I know for me, you know, I grew up in the projects. So when I was young, we would go to the tennis courts, because Black kids weren't playing tennis. The tennis course was set up every weekend for dogfights.
Kassidi Jones:Oh, wow.
Diaz Dixon:So, yeah, so I grew thinking dogfights, this is gonna be fun to go and watch, that was part of what was becoming the norm. And it wasn't till much later, when I went to work, my first job was working in an animal hospital. And then, if I fast forward, and I didn't know I'd come back to the animal industry, when I was the CEO of Nevada Humane. And I watched how we were hiding animals from certain people that were coming in, because they weren't good enough to adopt animals. And that's when it really dawned upon me that, whoa, we've got racism in all types of implicit bias that is heavily infused in this, in this culture. And I get up and I go to my first large conference, and I look around and I see, I see why. And so, you know, you, here you are taking another route, and you're probably, you're seeing this even at a younger age than I saw that and you're at Yale, and you go grab a dog and not even thinking about all these other pieces that are going to come together. But, of course, you're very articulate and, and powerful in your language that people, you're gonna have more people gravitate towards you, listen, listen to you. So I'm sure you're constantly thinking and putting things together.
Kassidi Jones:Oh, yeah. I like that someone told me when I was an undergrad that our work in Black Studies is to identify patterns. And there were a lot of patterns popping up in this animal world that I had not noticed until I adopted Ginger. Like you said, the, the things that happen behind closed doors in terms of who gets to adopt and who doesn't. There's the history of dogfighting in the Black community even though it's white history. First and foremost, I think, like I was talking about, thinking of all of our social, social issues as separate as holding us back because classism plays into who we consider an ideal adopter, and who isn't. Racism plays in to who we consider all of these. All of these social ills are working together. But when you don't think of them as social ills, it's easy to blame these individuals and just not give them dogs rather than attacking the real problem, which is inequity.
Diaz Dixon:You know, for any of us who are, have been pet owners or pet lovers, and at any point in time, we deal with the highs and lows and difficulty of, of that particular relationship. This next clip was really interesting, because Steven Mornelli, the founder and CEO of Waggle, a partner of HASS, is an individual who started an actual fundraising platform that has a heavy and strong impact on supporting people who are in need with their pets. It's gonna be interesting, as you lean in, and you can see what inspired him to be able to help people in this particular world. What happened that shifted for you that made you decide to tackle the issue of economic euthanasia? And can you explain what economic euthanasia is?
Steven Mornelli:I can, and thank you for starting there. Because when I started Waggle, I had no idea of the term "economic euthanasia." I hadn't heard terms like "compassion fatigue," nor did I know that over a million pets, the number has been revised upwards from when we started, actually, over a million pets are lost every year because people can't afford the cost of veterinary care. That they're often handing their dog or their cat over, they can no longer have that pet, and take care of them, or even care for them, for sometimes as little as $100. And that is just saddening, of course, something I was not aware of. And when I heard that, I was like, this is the right place for me to take my career.
Diaz Dixon:That's awesome. That's awesome that you could just look and see that and start putting those things together. Well, for our listeners, how would you explain Waggle and how it's different from other crowdfunding platforms?
Steven Mornelli: First and foremost, what we do, no one's doing at scale. There's no nonprofit like this. There are other crowdfunding sites that we've all heard of. GoFundMe, of course. There are other websites that one or two that are peers, but none of them are nonprofits, which means they've got investors behind them. So, that means a chunk of that money that donators are giving is going someplace other than animals, right? We're not doing that. So we're nonprofit, we're, we've scaled to take care of pets across North America. But essentially what we do is different at its core than these other organizations do. There's two things:one, we're really trying to solve a problem, right? If you think about GoFundMe, and I'll mention that name, $3 billion a year goes across that platform, that means, and there's investors behind this, that means that they're, they're not solving a problem, they're actually interested in having more transaction than less. They're not trying to put themselves out of business. The greater the volume, the greater the number of causes that they're supporting, right? That's important to them. That's how they, that's their business model, it's how they make money. We're different. We're trying to solve one problem in the veterinary space, to bring awareness to this issue that these, that there's so many people that can't afford the cost of veterinary care, and they need help. That's, that's at its core, the difference between us. We're not trying to do everything for everybody. We're trying to solve this problem in the animal welfare space.
Diaz Dixon:In this next clip, we have another duo again, where we were squeezing in a lot of wonderful information with two people. We could have gone on for another hour, because Jordana Moerbe, the National Shelter Support Director, and Reyna Caraveo, the Marketing Communications Manager, both for Austin Pets Alive!, were absolutely fantastic. We were talking a lot about cultural competency, as well as cultural IQ, and not being judgmental, and really the impact of reaching out and being able to communicate with other cultures, not necessarily just different languages, but different culture. Lean in on this one because Reyna and Jordana both had some really powerful points that will benefit everyone who listens. It's gonna touch you. What I also think is critical for us to understand too, that not to be judgmental. So, you know, it's really easy for people who work in a shelter to go, oh, no, those people don't deserve a dog, because here's what they, they're just going to have it in the backyard. There's a lot, I saw a lot of that when I was, when I was running Nevada Humane. And so, really trying to break down those barriers of the preconceived notions that people have on all sides, and not really being judgmental with it, with it also.
Jordana Moerbe:And when in reality, it's like, there's Black people and Mexican people, and I mean, people of all races care for their dogs in different ways. So it's like, taking that 1%, 2% that are walking through the shelter, and assuming that the whole, the whole community is that way is, it's just, it's not good.
Diaz Dixon:Yeah. No, it's not good at all. You know, it's just, I always say if we've got -isms, so whether they're, you know, we're using -isms on anything, it's not good, we gotta open up our minds. What do you guys think we lose when we don't put out communications in more than one language?
Reyna Caraveo:There's a lot that can be at stake, I think if you're not reaching multiple populations. We've kind of touched on it a little bit, but I think for me, it's it's not just like, you know, potential adopters and fosters, which is a big piece of, you know, getting animals out of the shelter. But it's long term support that you're risking not having in these communities. And then also, even just helping with, not like fixing the problems, but not creating more problems. Because if you can put communications out, and like Regenesis, like in a very simple way, and something that's helping to educate them, or even like starting at the baseline level, right, of just helping communities, what resources you offer as an organization, that just helps them already recognize like, okay, there is support here and we don't need to continue to have community cat problems, or multiple litters, or backyard breeders, or whatever it is the issue. But if they don't know, and they're not aware of these resources and things that people offer, then that problem's just going to continue.
Jordana Moerbe:Yeah. But it's almost like we need to be communicating to different cultures too, it's like, not even just different languages, but talking to different cultures, and how we communicate. And I think, not to get too off topic, and I don't, because this is probably, I'm getting on a dirt road a little bit. But I think the result is where animal welfare finds itself today, with you know, a lot of saviors and a not diverse industry. That is a danger, we are in living what happened in our field, because it wasn't diverse. And it, you know, we're, it's a lot of repair work that has to get done that's gonna last decades, probably. But you know, so I think it's not only translating to different languages, but also speaking the language of different cultures.
Diaz Dixon:You're, you're so right. There are no dirt roads on People, Pets, and Purpose. You get the drive, and we're going along on the ride. It's all relevant information. And the reality of it is, too, you know, you go, go to a national conference, you go to a national conference, and you kind of walk through and you go, whoa, okay, we can see what this industry looks like. And a lot of it is because of the work that has not been done, the efforts that have not been put in place. So APA!, major kudos for the work that's being done in you two, and paying close attention to that. And we're missing out on opportunity. So we've, we're struggling with all of overcrowding and shelters, but we're not reaching so many other communities that can help us. You know, I really love this clip when I got an opportunity to interview Matt Pepper from Michigan Humane because he talked a lot about One Health as well as the priorities that people have in feeding their pets before feeding themselves. Take a listen to this because it is really, really good in talking about families and pets being one.
Matt Pepper:But where One Health came from was, sort of us asking around, you know, it started with our conversation with an organization here in southeast Michigan called Gleaners, which is one of the largest human food insecurity organizations and in us asking the question, how many of your, your participants in your program have pets? And we all know now that about 70% of American, the American population has pets. He found almost to a tee 70% of his population had a pet and not only did they have a pet, that organization found that they were sacrificing the human food they were given for their pets. So what we did was create a value proposition that if you want your food to go to the right purpose, you need us involved, because if we're not involved, 70% of the time, they're giving your food to their dogs, because they're prioritizing their dogs over their own health. So that bled into other opportunities. We brought in University of Detroit Mercy and Delta Dental to provide dental screenings for humans as they were waiting for their dogs to get dental screenings at our One Health events. We brought in DTE Energy Corporation to help people talk about their utility bills, because they're waiting anyways, the dogs are inside waiting, let's give them access. In the city of Detroit, we're talking about a population that's been promised a lot of things. And we can't be an organization that promises more and doesn't deliver, and we can deliver for their pets, which gives other organizations an opportunity to kind of piggyback off that trust. We've developed over 145 years, and create safer, healthier families. So last year, we did you know, 10 to a dozen One Health events. But our One Health programs incorporate kind of all of our work, it's our door to door work in the community, we, we actually go door to door and ask people, what do they, what do they want? What do you want to see? Do they know who we are? We, we provide indigent care services in the, in the, in our veterinary centers. As a matter of fact, we've committed 38 million by 2030 in resources and subsidized veterinary care to Metro Detroit to keep families together. And frankly, that's a cheaper model than sheltering them. Man, every animal that walks in, I would challenge you to think about us in the industry, we think about intake by appointment, and you make an appointment and a couple of weeks later you bring in the dog, what if we lived in a world where appointments ran the other way and you surrendered your dog two weeks later, we made an appointment for you to come back and pick it up and got him out of the shelter. So I think we're at a real interesting time in our organization. But, but One Health is about, it's about truly that, one health. It's about using our access to give people exponentially greater exposure to the other services in this community that can help them and their family thrive.
Diaz Dixon:One really fun episode I had was with Laura Thomas, who's the host of Rescued by a Dog podcast. This was a really good one, because she is an advocate and a voice for how dogs make humans the best version of ourselves and just sitting and chatting with her warms you. There's also a little part here, you might hear a little acapella with her singing, and unfortunately a little bit of my singing. You might want to tune out on that part, but tune in on what she's got to say. Tell me this, Laura, what do you think you've learned about dogs and people by doing your podcast, at the same time while living your life? What, how, what's changed for you and your dog?
Laura Thomas:I mean, I was always obsessed with dogs. So, everyone, anyone who knows me, knows that I'm obsessed with dogs to an extent that makes sense only to dog people. But I have in, in having the honor of listening to the stories that I get to tell in my podcasts every day, it is clear to me that dogs understand humans way better than humans understand dogs, that dogs have so much more goodness in them than even humans have. And that I think that they make humanity our best selves. I think they make human beings our best selves. And I don't think that that is recognized as much by people who don't have dogs, have never had dogs. Even people who say I don't like dogs, then they'll meet my dogs and they love my dogs. So that just says to me, you didn't know a dog, you didn't know any dogs, closely, personally because there is, they are only a force for good in this world that is just like desperately trying to push us in darker directions. They're like desperately trying to hold us back from that darkness, and I, I always kind of felt that way but hearing these stories over and over again about the lengths that dogs will go to to help or save their persons at the, at their own peril. They're not even thinking about whether their own self is at risk when they're helping their person. It is just the greatest gift I think that humanity has been given and I want us to recognize that and I also just want us to recognize that like anytime you need a light in your life, just touch a dog, just listen to a story about a dog, go to the Dodo, you know there's just so much you can change just by watching a couple Dodo videos.
Diaz Dixon:Without a doubt. Without a doubt, the Dodo videos, they do such a fantastic job and so uplifting. I agree with you completely on that. I heard a rumor that you actually have a good night song that you sing to Cody.
Laura Thomas:I do! It's not just good night, it's, I do it several times a day and every single time his eyes get really sleepy, like he starts closing his eyes and then he yawns and then he puts his little head down and it is the sweetest thing. Can you tell us a little bit about the song, or you, did you want to sing it? Or...? Okay, okay, I'll sing this song for you. You're so funny. Matt Baiser convinced me to sing this on the episode of the podcast. So that's about me, my podcast, so I'm guessing that's where you heard it, but here it is. "I love you, Cody. Oh, yes, I do. I love you, Cody. Oh, yes, it's true. I love you, Cody. Yes, I do. Oh, Cody. I love you."
Diaz Dixon:That's beautiful. I love it. I love it.
Laura Thomas:Thank you!
Diaz Dixon:I have a song that I sing to Pita, as well.
Laura Thomas:Let me hear it. Let's hear it.
Diaz Dixon:Oh, I wasn't planning on singing it.
Laura Thomas:Now you have to, I gave it up.
Diaz Dixon:Oh, jeez. Well, I sing and she does the same thing, she starts closing her eyes. I don't sing to Nala, because Nala looks at me like I'm crazy. But to, I cannot believe I say I even said that part because but, but Ibasically stole it from a movie and shifted it. But it's, it's basically telling her not to go to sleep. And I just say, "Don't close your eyes. Stay awake. Keep them open, for pete's sake. Don't you go to sleep, my girl. I need you in my world." And she always does the...
Laura Thomas:You have the most soothing voice.
Diaz Dixon:Oh well, you might be the first person to ever tell me that. So that's, I'll take that as a huge compliment coming from someone who truly can sing. So thank you.
Laura Thomas:Oh, I thought that was beautiful.
Diaz Dixon:Oh, well, thank you, Laura. Who knew that there could be a difference of how music impacts not only people but cats all the way to dogs. That was really astounding. And Derrick Garrett, the founder of Zoundz, was in this particular clip, in this particular episode, we got a chance to dig deeply into the science behind music for pets. This was a really fun one to do. So funny how there's so much science behind all of this. Tell me a little bit about the science, about the music for the pets. How does this relieve the animal's stress?
Derrick Garrett:So yeah, so and I kind of stopped short, you know, when you was asking me how Zoundz was started. But so, I'll pick up right where I left off from, so those studies that I found, they, these studies were conducted, peer reviewed. And they found that there are specific parameters within a song that actually has a calming effect on both dogs and cats. Now, just to be clear, the music that is effective for dogs couldn't be more opposite for cats. So it's not a one size. It's not a one size fits all scenario at all, it's very, very different. But both on the dog side and the cat side as well, there's specific parameters, such as chord progressions, such as the tempo of the song, the key the song was written in, the overall instrumentation, all of these parameters that make up a song actually can have a positive effect, or a negative effect. And I always say to people, like people always, you know, the go to when people think common, you know, for humans or pets, or you know, they wanted to be classy, everyone automatically refers to classical or jazz music. But as it relates to pets, you know, they don't understand genres of music. It's, you know, however, they do, they do react to specific parameters within a song.
Diaz Dixon:Okay, wow. That's cool. You know, we were listening, my team and I were listening to some Zoundz to prepare for this interview. And we noticed that the songs tended to be pretty instrumental when we're listening for the dogs, and the cat music had a little bit more electronica going to it.
Derrick Garrett:That's exactly right.
Diaz Dixon:Okay, so I got that. Okay, so, so tell me, how do dogs feel about R&B, and cats, how you mix that in? Okay, I'm gonna have to remember this when I, the next time I go travel with my pets, we're in the car, we're going on a long trip to try to help them out. I played some music for them the other day, and I asked them how they liked it, but they didn't really respond. They looked at me like I was crazy.
Derrick Garrett:So, again, listen, if it's an R&B song that falls within the parameters where the tempo is low, the instrumentation is not like high violins or high pitch, you know, instrumentation as it relates to a dog. It could be any genre of music as long as as long as it falls within the parameters, you know? So, yeah, so yeah, they like, yeah, if it falls within the parameters, they like the R&B song, they'll like the rock song, whatever it may be, in terms of genre, as long as it falls within those parameters. The next clip you're going to hear was an interview with Casey Boshae, the creator of The Gentle Pit. This one hits close home to me, because my two girls are pitties. So there's a little extra affinity there. But Casey had an amazing opportunity to transport a dog via connection she had with an old roommate. And she ended up fostering the dog. And she tells the story of all of, that she eventually foster failed. But it's a great story, and really shows the pathway to how she became an ambassador for pit bull type dogs. Listen in.
Casey Boshae:It, it's time to make a decision, either keep her or we need her at the adoption event, 9 am tomorrow morning. And that was, that was where the rubber hit the road. And so the rest is history. We foster failed officially for the first time. And she became our dog. And it was interesting at the time, because you know, all I saw was this adorable puppy that needed a home. Well, we did have some input from friends and family at that time when we said oh, we're, we're adopting this dog. She's a pit bull. And for some of them, it was like we were saying we were adopting a baby alligator.
Diaz Dixon:Or a saber-toothed tiger.
Casey Boshae:Right? Exactly. I don't know, you really should think about that. And that was really what kicked off my interest in the narratives around bully breeds. The plight of the pit bull, you know, throughout American history and, and really their impact in the shelter system at large across the US and, and while it took me a few years to kind of, you know, that was still about five years before I started The Gentle Pit. But that was our first experience with adopting her and she has just been such an ambassador, such a wonderful experience.
Diaz Dixon:In this next clip, I had an opportunity to interview Brent Toellner and Clare Callison. They were just fantastic. You know, it's tough when you're interviewing two people once, because they've got such great information. We had limited time. This clip is a little bit longer, but I urge you to listen, because Brent talks about getting back to the basics. Things that can be done, as well as Claire talks, she's really solution focused about how groups can handle being overwhelmed and not reinventing the wheel. This is one that you can really lean into. Well, I have to ask you, what does it look like while shelters are understaffed and intake is going up? Like, what are our solutions wrapped around that?
Brent Toellner:You know, I feel like we got away from a lot of the basics that we learned. You know, during the course of the early 2010 period, you know, when I first got involved in animal welfare. We were very focused on spay/neuter, we only spayed and neutered enough pets in 2006, we were going to solve all, all the world's problems. And we've kind of, during 2008, 2009 in through kind of the mid-2010 period, we were really focused on saving the lives of pets in our own shelter. And I think we lost focus on some of those programs that we know work, you know, open adoptions and having conversation based adoptions instead of like being overly critical of our adopters and screening them out, doing major adoption events to make them almost a community celebration and pet adoption. Having open hours that were late into the evening, later on weekends and longer on weekends when people could have access to them, you know, still amazed at the number of shelters out there that are doing adoptions by appointment only and that made sense. And you know, 2020, 2021, when we were in the middle of a pandemic, it doesn't make sense when your shelters are packed to the gills and you're trying to get adopters in the door, like creating more of those barriers is a factor. And I think we've gotten ourselves into a situation where our shelters are so full. We're so busy caring for the animals there, that we're not able to provide the customer service that we were prior to that, and so I've seen a lot of places like, you go in, and it's almost an annoyance that the doctor showed up, because I've got other things that I need to do. And just like the pet adopter, like, that's the person who's gonna take an animal home. And I think, like, with a lot of the turnover that happened during the pandemic, I think we've just kind of lost sight of some of those things that we know work inherently in terms of the marketing and the customer service, and the open adoption processes that really helped move animals. And I really hope we can get back to some of that and in, in a, in a humane way.
Diaz Dixon:Yeah, those are conversations we definitely need to have, and keep those on the forefront. Getting back to those, those pieces. Excellent point. Clare, let me ask you, what are the challenges that you're seeing on the ground? Like today? And what do you think the solutions are?
Clare Callison:Yeah, I mean, I think it's, there's certainly a lot of groups that are overwhelmed. And I couldn't agree more with Brent in the fact that, you know, the solution doesn't have to be an all about innovation and trying new things, I think there are groups that are looking for this brand new silver bullet solution and getting a lot of organizations that have never transported before asking me, that's it, you know, like transport, let's do it. And I'm not saying that, it's the wrong way to go. But their, I when I look into their, their process and how things work, it's like, you're right here in your backyard, you've got your solution, you know, you do not need to be sending pets across the country, when you know, your adoption application is 10 pages long. And just like Brent said, when people are coming in to adopt or look around, it's like, and it's not warm or friendly. Don't, don't stick your fingers in the kennels type of greeting. And so, you know, getting back to the basics, absolutely. And I think not having to reinvent the wheel. I mean, I know when I'm, after a long day, I'm exhausted, I don't have a lot of creativity left. But I really, I'm a firm believer in borrowing slash stealing whatever you want to call it from others, you know, you see a good social media post that worked and it went viral, right, you can do that in your community and making it as easy as possible for people to help. I can't stress that more, you know, being open to fosters, even if they can only take for three to four days. I mean, we're seeing in our research that you know, not all those paths, even if you do a big short term, hey, we're full, like come help us. Or use the weather to your to your advantage, right? If it's super cold, like get these dogs, you know, get them warm for the weekend or whatever. Not all those dogs are going to come back. So it's it is a win win. And you get the ones that do come back, you're getting a ton of notes on them. So I think like that there is this attitude when we present these ideas that seem you know, big community adoption events and open your doors late, it feels like we've tried, there is some resistance, I think on some level, like we've tried that, it didn't work or but I would really challenge people to say did you really try it? You know? Did you, did you really like, put all your all into it, and maybe try it again in a different way? There's no harm in trying something for 30 days, you know, again, and really focusing in and if it doesn't work, alright, prove me wrong. But I really do think we've got the answer just right in front of us. But it's, we're sort of getting in our own way by a lot of the barriers that we're putting in place. So just making it as easy and as welcoming and as friendly as we can to the to the community and bringing it back into our doors, because like Brent said, there is an adjustment after the pandemic. And but, but the appointment base, although convenient for staff and the dogs are maybe a little a little less barky. It also is, is it's a barrier for people to come in to help, you know, to want to adopt. So I think just really looking at all of our policies and not doing the things that we've been always doing without questioning them is more important than ever right now.
Diaz Dixon:People are oftentimes scared of innovation, scared to do things differently. We've come into a system and learn how to do it this way. And this is the way we've always done it. And also scared to fail. You know, I always say fail is the first attempt in learning. So it doesn't mean you can't go back to it and try it again. You know, put it out there. Yeah, we've tried that before. But maybe we'll try it this time and do something a little different. And we do it with intentionality of trying to learn from it. Not necessarily the intention behind it is we have to have all these wonderful, great results right off the top. This interview was a little different because it's with two people who are outside the animal sheltering industry. Doctors Angie Pepper and Kristen Voight are two philosophers who wrote and edited the book, The Ethics of Animal Shelters. This book focuses mainly on the ethical treatment of animals in the animal sheltering system, but Doctors Pepper and Voight also had really important ideas involving the people at the heart of sheltering. Here, they shared their thoughts about making space for feelings, including grief, for people working so hard in this literal life and death environment. Lean in on this one, it's different, but it's great.
Angie Pepper:I was really underprepared for the level of moral stress, and grief, and disillusionment, and despair at times, that people who work in shelters experience. And so, that, I think, really cemented for all of us that the people had to be really at the heart of it. So it wouldn't work to make recommendations that were unrealistic or that would make people feel even worse about their situation or so that, that was, I guess, central to, to our overall outlook. But we started, I think, I think it would be fair to say that we started with an interest in improving, or thinking about shelter workers and the animals that they care for. But the place of people in the project really big was cemented after those initial interviews.
Kristin Voigt:Yeah, and I think we, we wanted, just wanted to make space for the emotions that people have. Because when you care about animals, and you work in this environment, where you're constantly dealing with situations where you don't, don't have the resources to do everything that you think you ought to be doing. And as Angie was saying, that the grief that it, that it causes, it's just a, it's an a sort of appropriate response to the situation. So. And also, as we were speaking with the staff, we realized there wasn't really any time, or any space to deal with that or even to acknowledge it. So we want, we didn't want to sort of, we wanted there to be space for the emotional responses and not pretend that they weren't happening or even pathologize them in any way. So I think it became, just became obvious that that had to be part of the recommendations as well, because people are working in shelters, just care. You know, and the organization depends on people caring, and so we have to just make room for that.
Diaz Dixon:I love it. I love it. You know, it's interesting, it's great that you made room for that. I think one of the most interesting things is that you also found room and space for budgetary talk. I mean, bringing up the the actual opportunity to talk about, I don't see how philosophy, I wouldn't have expected that the guidelines to go in how shelters should do their budgets. How did you find room for that?
Kristin Voigt:Well, we weren't expecting this either. But one of the things we realized was that there was a certain amount of, there were just disagreements among people are working in different parts of the Montreal SPCA about how to approach priority setting, the allocation of resources. And so in the shelter division, it might seem natural to just try and help as many animals as you possibly can, whereas the Montreal SPCA also deals with enforcement of animal welfare legislation. So they might be getting individual animals out of abusive situations. And their approach was often, okay, we're dealing with these animals who have suffered so much, we're going to try and have them live, have them, allow them to live out their lives, with as much pleasure and joy as, as we can. So, they just had a very different approach to how they might use the, want to use the resources that they had. And there is no, both of these approaches is legitimate. But it created a certain amount of friction that we thought was unhelpful. So we, we suggested that dividing the budget so that different divisions of the organization with different priorities could just allocate their budgets differently without this creating tension
Diaz Dixon:You're about to hear a clip from a conversation, an interview that I had with Lauren Loney, who's a staff attorney with the HASS program. She does all types of important work behind the scenes, working on policies that really impact people and pets. That's a good part of her purpose. And just before the clip, Lauren and I were discussing a bill that she had worked on in Texas that would have increased access to veterinary care for pets. And here you're gonna listen to her go on, passionately, in a powerful message about the connection between animal protection and civil rights, and what we can learn from other social justice movements. I got a lot out of this conversation Can you talk a little bit more broadly about the connection between animal protection and civil rights? Because you're touching on it right now, I mean, that's what my, what my brain is going with a lot of this stuff right now that you're, that, that you're working on.
Lauren Loney:Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I don't know if folks listening will be familiar with the concept of One Health, which is, you know, that human issues, animal issues, and environmental issues are all interconnected and to fix or harm one is to fix or harm these other elements. And, of course, it's called One Health but that is a concept that was known in indigenous communities long before scientists deemed it One Health, but um, you know, sort of in academic worlds, that sort of a common, the common name for it is One Health. And I think that similarly, you know, civil rights activists were really the first animal rights activists as well, like the history of the intersection between people recognizing the inherent value in humans and non-humans has deep roots in especially civil rights activism for Black Americans. Right, so there's like, deep, deep rooted intersectionality there, that now I think, we're starting to recognize and our movement, our animal welfare movement, which has historically been pretty separate from other civil rights, fights, as we think of them in sort of, like our modern legal times. So, but there is no, it doesn't matter whether you're talking about domestic animals, companion animals, livestock animals, animals that are living in research facilities, wildlife. In each of those issues related to animals, there are overlapping issues related to people and to human rights and to human welfare that we have, and we have been historically from this sort of legal advocacy perspective, siloed. But really, we're all fighting against the same inequities, and the same systems that place property and profit over people and living, other living beings. So that's maybe a little like 30,000 foot view, but we have so much to learn from the paths, that, you know, one that really comes to mind immediately is, I mean, of course, housing justice, right, because if people are housed, their pets are going to be housed. So that's kind of a no brainer. But another one that comes to mind is our relationship to criminal justice reform. You know, if we are as an animal welfare movement, we have essentially followed the same pathway as like the war on animal abuse, the war on animal cruelty has followed the same pathway as the war on drugs and being hard on crime, and all of these things that not only have caused so much damage to so many communities, but also have been ineffective. So like, we have an opportunity to learn from what criminal justice reform advocates are doing in our own reform, in animal welfare. And if, if it's not acceptable for us to keep there's a great book by Justin Marceau on this, called Beyond Cages. And one of the things that he says it's always been really powerful to me is that if we're not okay with dogs and cats being kept in barren cages for years and years at a time, then why are we okay with humans being kept in cages for lifetimes? And why are we okay with our movement participating in our carceral system? So I think that there's so, that's just one example, there's so many ways that our issues overlap and where I think we have a responsibility as an animal welfare movement to recognize the ways we've contributed to other social justice issues in a negative way, and how we can change that dynamic moving forward. That was long winded!
Diaz Dixon:No, that's great because you're just parallel on and I'm inside here, and I'm like, a cheerleader inside just like throwing my pom pom up because there are so many parallels. And I think we have to make sure that we get out of our silos, just like you're saying. We're so used to doing, fighting this fight beside the silo. And if we stop for a second go, oh, wait a minute, there's other systems that have been put into place that have been, have done so much harm to so many communities. We don't want to do, we don't want to do that. We have to be careful of that. But we also want, there are allies out there. And when we make these connections, and we see that, that there's a lot of connection between animal protection and civil rights, and we can have a much larger group fighting the fight, and paying close attention to the systemic issues that not only exist, but the ones that we continue to create and support unknowingly so. Wow, can you believe that, you know, as we sit back and listen, and hearing those voices, again, really takes me back to those particular moments. And it really makes me want to go back and listen to the full episodes. I hope that you guys have been able to listen to these clips and listen to these powerful words of wisdom. And it has enhanced you in your own purpose. And in your relationships that you have with other people as well as relationships with pets. We know that it takes all of us to do the work that needs to be done, to dive into conversations that oftentimes can be uncomfortable, for us to have growth. And I hope that this last year has been truly a year of growth that will take in, you can take into the next year to find more purpose that's wrapped around human kindness and pet kindness, because we know the world needs more of it. So until next time, have a wonderful year, a safe new year. And let's dive into 2024, making everything, our communities, the people around us, all the pets, making all of their worlds a better place. Take care.