Off Mic With Ivory

Season 4, Episode 6 - Communication Gap Between Pastors & Worship: Where is the breakdown?

• Ivory McDonald • Season 4 • Episode 6

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In this episode, I sit down with my good friend DWayne Bennett ( @SaintOrbin81 ) to unpack a powerful conversation from Aria Gaston’s ( @ariagaston1812 ) episode, “Worship Leaders Speak Out.”

We dive into the real and often unspoken tension between worship leaders, musicians, and pastors—especially when communication breaks down. Why does this disconnect happen? And more importantly… what does it take to fix it?

This isn’t just about leadership styles—it’s about unity, clarity, and stewarding what God has entrusted to us well.

If you’ve ever felt misunderstood, misaligned, or unsure of how to communicate across roles in ministry… this conversation is for you.

Let’s talk about it.

Link to Aria Gaston's Episode: https://youtu.be/TmwTf6hXUMY?si=Xi51GN2aPsIxLg5J

Executively Produced by Ivory McDonald
Audio Engineered by Ivory McDonald
Video Filmed by Ivory Mcdonald
Video Edited by Humphrey Caswell Jr.
Music by Isaiah Garcia

©Off Mic with Ivory

SPEAKER_02

What up, family? Welcome back to Off Mic with Ivory. I'm your host, Ivory McDonald. This is the podcast where we have the conversation that you want to have, but you can't have on your platform, Mike, so we do it off mic with me. Again, I'm your host, Ivory McDonald. And for those of you who've been rocking with me for a while, I love y'all. Um, thank you so much for your support, for commenting, sharing, subscribing, all the things. I appreciate you so much. For those of you who are new to this family, welcome. Um, I am a believer in Jesus Christ. I am a worship leader, I'm a daughter of the King of Kings, and I just love talking about worship. I love talking about um life, because I'm a firm believer that life affects us as worship leaders, whether you're a worship leader or just a worshiper, a believer in Jesus. Um, this platform is really targeted for those who are in worship ministry, but I think everybody can benefit from these conversations. And so without further ado, huh? We're doing things differently this season, this next stretch of podcasting and off mic with ivory. Um the Lord told me to simplify because amen, my bank account was getting dry, huh? So um, folks don't know it costs money to rent studios, to hire people and all the things. Um, but the Lord told me to come come back to this, and one of the things he told me to do was simplify. And one of those things was to do virtual recordings. And so let me first introduce my good friend, my brother. He is not new to this platform, he has been on several episodes, and he has been um the one that comes for our throats every time. And I don't know why you're shaking your head because you do without further ado. I want to introduce to some, present to others my brother Dwayne Bennett. He is a producer, he is a musician, he plays just about every instrument that there is. Um, he's a uh music director for several ministries, right? Or am I just making this up? Uh-huh. Yeah, okay. Oh no. He's a husband, he's a father, and he's my good friend and my brother. Um, Dwayne, my brother, how you doing, sir?

SPEAKER_07

As well. I'm happy to be here. I'm glad we're back. We're doing this again.

SPEAKER_04

What the folks don't know is it took us an hour and a half to get this thing together.

SPEAKER_07

This very point.

SPEAKER_02

My God. Okay. Whoo, and I'm sweating. Do you understand? I'm sweating. Oh my god. Um, but anyway, I'm really glad that you're back on this platform. I'm excited. We are gonna talk about we're gonna talk about something that, okay, how did we start this? So I think it was we're doing commentary. I know, we're doing commentary, and um you, I think it was like a couple months ago, I think this was before I decided I was actually gonna do the pod or come back to the pod. But you sent me a video on Instagram of this clip of oh my gosh, let me find I want to get her name because I want to make sure. Um, her name is Aria Gaston. I actually don't know where she where her ministry is, where she leaves worship, but neither do I. You sent me this clip. I guess she has a podcast. And the title of this podcast is called Worship Leaders Speak Out. And it was um, she had worship leaders on there, she had musicians, um, and then she had two pastors on there, which I thought was brilliant because I've I feel like the communication It was three pastors, actually.

SPEAKER_07

It was three, two, yeah, two who were like seasoned and and then the the couple that was in in the separate room. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Okay, the they are from if from if I got that correctly, they're uh young pastors, I should say.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, so okay, that black lady and the and the guy, they were they're married. I never called her.

SPEAKER_07

I don't know if they're married, but she said she, I know she said she's only been pastoring for, I think she said like five years or something like that. So she was like, yeah, she's she didn't want to speak on certain things, but she was like, Okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, yeah, yeah. I do remember her saying that. Okay. So, which I thought was great to have conversations with worship leaders and pastors because I feel like there's a lot of stuff that goes on, and the communication aspect between worship leaders and pastors, in my opinion, is not the greatest. Right. And it does, and you don't really see these conversations with uh pastors. And I think it's really it's really important because we're we're on the platform together, we're sharing the platform together and we're doing ministry together. And I think a lot of the issues that come up would be solved if we just communicated together. So anyway, so you sent me this pot, and and I think the actual clip was about um why do worship leaders not want to be pastored? And I was like, yikes.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, that that was a that was a tough one. That's that's like ooh.

SPEAKER_02

I was like, yikes, and I think that one clip went viral. I think um mad people has stuff to say about that very thing, and I have I have some stuff that I want to say, but before we even go there, so like what I want to do is because there was so much that they were talking about in this episode, so much, and I was I took notes because I think I texted you, I was like, yo, yeah, we need to we need to talk about this on the pod because there's so much here. So there's a lot. Where do you want where do you want to start? Because I got notes, and you sent me you sent me your notes about the stuff that uh you wanted to hit on. So how about you start first?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. Well, I think for me, I uh I the biggest takeaway for me was definitely communication. Yes, right? Um, and I started, you know, I watched the whole thing and then I kind of like as I got back through it and got to the end, I felt like a lot of what I was wanting to hear started working its way from the rear of the video back to the front. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like for instance, um the relationship between pastors and musicians or your worship team or everybody. Yes, right? Yes. So there was like a moment where I feel like where was that? Because I wanna I want to play it so that we can like a minute and 29. No, an hour 29. Okay, hold on. I'm gonna pull it up. Like right so it was like right towards the end.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, you're going right to the end because I got stuff in the front, but we'll go, we'll go there.

SPEAKER_07

Oh, yeah, no, I'm I'm I'm gonna work, I gotta work my way back. Got you, got you, got you. Okay, hold on.

SPEAKER_02

A minute, an hour twenty nine.

SPEAKER_08

This is something that has to happen in the church. Um, musicians, worship leaders, we need to understand pastors. Pastors need to understand us. And I feel like the one thing that that the pastor said, because me personally, I was more into wanting to talk to pastors about, you know, our interactions in the church. But the hard conversations, if I can ask anything of a pastor, I feel like that should be done right in the beginning.

SPEAKER_07

That right there, yeah. He was more into wanting to talk to pastor. I've actually experienced a few people who can't who feel like they can't even talk to their pastor. Yes, yes, as the musician, as the you know, whatever your position there in that music department, where the pastors don't actually have a uh a working relationship.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

Or or it's only a working relationship. It's only I'm pastor, you're this. Uh, if I when I address you, it's usually uh only about this. Right, right. So you don't even get a chance to even learn the full dynamics of what the pastor actually wants, what his vision is for the music ministry, if he has a clear vision for music ministry, because not all pastors are musically inclined. Um, and you know, so on and so forth. So that that part, that sentence alone struck a chord with me because I'm like, I've I've had a few conversations with people who were like, Yeah, I need to know what the pastor, what I can't, I you know, it's hard to get in contact with the pastor. Why is it hard to get in contact with your pastor? You know, and even if it's I don't want to deep, I don't want to dive too deep. Go ahead, go ahead, brother.

SPEAKER_05

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_07

Um, because uh it's I'm sure we're gonna get to it, but even if even if you're from if you're in the position of essentially just an employee versus a member, right? Right, uh, if the pastor hired you for the church, uh-huh, then why is it so hard to get in contact with the pastor to get clear understanding and build relationships? So that's not everybody is let's start, let's start there, okay, I read because I already know what's gonna happen. We're not coming for the entire kingdom of God.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, no, we're not.

SPEAKER_07

This this matters to those who the shoe fit, okay?

SPEAKER_02

Okay, amen.

SPEAKER_07

If it if if you know they say a hurt, uh a hit dog gonna holler, so if you hurt, it's probably for you. Okay, um, yeah, so yeah, we let we could we could keep going where where he was at.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah. Like, you know, we should we should pastors should really do that more so than be afraid to not.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know if you're afraid or not, but from de from desperation of, you know, if you have someone that's talented and you're like, you don't have anyone, you don't have that in your space. And so you're just kind of willing to just bring them in. Let's just get them in so we can get worship going so we don't be without this Sunday and next Sunday or whatever the case may be. So a hard question. If it if they're not for you, then you just gotta keep it moving. You know what I'm saying? If they're like, I don't know if I can submit to that, then now they know. Now we know, or now it turns into this kind of conversation. I could help you for a couple of weeks, um, but after that, you know, I'm gonna have to pull back. So within a couple weeks, make sure you find someone because you know, that that's that's how that works, or whatever. Just have the conversation. God will give us the wisdom, you know.

SPEAKER_07

They're talking about number one, the communication between the pastor and the musician, uh uh, not just from understanding what they want, um, but the relationship, um, not just from understanding what they want musically, right? But just um the relationship that they're building, whether you're whether they're going to pastor you, yeah, whether you're there as uh employee, right, you know, like all of those different dynamics, um, understanding what it is that you're looking for in servitude at that particular particular ministry. It's it's in and having the hard conversation that up front. Um because what happens, like like she said, a lot of churches, you know, first of all, my God, we might have we might have a few too many churches. That's a whole nother conversation.

SPEAKER_02

Wait, what? What?

SPEAKER_07

Okay. Some of the some of the some of the reason why we are where we are in in in in uh the uncomfortable discussions in worship ministry. Hold on, the baby calling me. Yes. It's okay. It's fine.

SPEAKER_03

We love it.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, but what's one of the reasons we why we are in these uncomfortable positions is because we are uh a lot of our ministries are scrambling to get musicians that that don't exist.

SPEAKER_02

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_07

Right? So for instance, if I I start my church, if I start, I'm hypothetically y'all, if I start my church tomorrow, uh-huh, and I'm I'm now like, hey, well, I need a musician. I need I need to get a musician for our ministry because we need to have the best. We gotta have the very best. And now I'm out here looking for musicians, and now out of desperation, like she said, because we got service, our first service starts next week, and I don't have a keyboard player. So now I go grab anybody that I know that can actually play half a decent keyboard. I done gave them a title. I done, you're gonna be my music minister.

SPEAKER_09

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_07

Right? I all of this is out of desperation now, right? And so I done I done got this person. I didn't have a real conversation with this person to really understand where they are and to actually let them understand where I am. Right. But because I just desperately wanted to have a keyboard player, which you don't need for worship, we'll come back to that. Um, I I done I hired this person, and now we're uh uh six months down the road and we're button heads because I done called three extra services and he didn't know what he was in for. Right. And now I feel like, well, you are as a as a musician in the house of the Lord, if you're serving here, you should be okay with coming to these services because you're doing it as unto God. Right. And now we're now this the shift has changed. And what what I like to say, we like to be corporate when it's suitable, right? And then we like to be spiritual when it's suitable. Yikes. Yeah, so like that's the comp those are the hard conversations. Am I asking you to come out of desperation and I just need a musician? Because then I'm just going to hire you and contract you as a musician, and I won't feel any type of way when you tell me no. Oh, we're gonna have these, we're gonna have a week of revival. I need you there for revival. No. You needed a musician for Sunday, Sunday services. Now you actually, now you asking me to do a whole bunch of extra stuff, and technically you're not my pastor. Okay. Because that's not how we built the relationship. We built it out of desperation of you wanting a keyboard player. So now we need to reframe the conversation. So these are the hard conversations. That's why I like when he got there that towards the end. Like these are the hard conversations that need to be had in the beginning when you're seeking out worship leaders, musicians. Um, I call I call the whole music department worship leader. No, it is honestly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_02

And actually, before you even go, because I forgot, I forgot the people of God, that this this platform is geared towards everybody who's in worship ministry. So, like, that's musicians, that's worship leaders, that's singers, that's the the audio. To me, it's all it's all encompassing. So like this is for not just the singers, but for the musicians, and this is an episode for musicians and singers. So, yes, go ahead.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, but those are the hard conversations you gotta have. So in the beginning, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

No, sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_07

Yes, accept the the the levels and the the clear expectations. So, and I think from from the hiring standpoint, those have to be set. You have to, and you know, in order to set those expectations, sometimes you just gotta go through it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

So you can understand um what it is you actually need um versus what why I said we might have sometimes we have too many churches because everybody's signing up to be a pastor these days. Yikes. And um, brother, that is a we got churches, we got churches everywhere on every corner in the hood. You know, it's like 13 churches on one street. That's a fact. And so, and um that's why these musicians and we or we end up in that place of desperation where we end up hiring the wrong person for that ministry.

SPEAKER_02

Because you didn't vet them. One of the things that um one of the gentlemen on the podcast was talking about, he was talking about how when before he was hired for a church at a church to be their their minister of music, the pastor asked him every question in the book. And I mean the questions that made him very uncomfortable, the questions that went into his personal life, the questions like that really got under the hood of who you are, where's your walk with God, um, where's your heart and all this? Is this just a gig for you? And the whole gigging mentality in our churches today is uh very interesting. And I'm not a musician, so I I don't feel like it's hard for me to really speak on this on this topic of the whole gigging thing. Um I don't know. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_07

Well, let's just put it here. Uh gig equals work, right? So it's the like we we use the term a lot loosely in in in the music community, essentially, but other people, other industries use the word gig too. So it's not it, it doesn't only apply to us. Basically, gig is work.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_07

If you're hiring me to do a job, technically speaking, it's a gig. Because I I always end up getting in trouble here because the wordplay dynamic, I always get in trouble in this space because you know, it's like the it's like the difference in saying, okay, this is ministry we're not performing, right? We have to actually do an activity which is a performance to do the ministry. Right. So again, gig equals work. If you're being paid to serve at the church or play or do whatever it is that you're skilled to do, that is that equates to a gig. But your heart posture should equate to where the ministry portion of it. So again, I love that that the gentleman was talking about how the pastor really dug in and questioned him about a lot of those things because you could tell the beginning, the the origin of that relationship started on from a pastoral uh uh uh uh uh point of view. It was like I'm looking for someone to come play, but I'm looking for someone to pastor in in this ministry. I'm not just looking for a music, yeah, I'm not looking for just a musician. Right.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, and so I think the whole like just the word gig has a negative connotation to it. So like you're saying gig is just work, but like when someone says, Oh, is this just a gig for you? Like the connotation is very negative. And I think the assumption is that what because it's ministry, you're supposed to it's a like the money is not supposed to mean as much as uh the ministry. And this leads me to one of the other portions that they talked about in the episode. Um uh the pastor, uh one of the pastors, I don't remember which one it was, but he said, Oh god, I hope I'm saying this right. He said, from I this is the attitude that I get from worship leaders and worship uh and and musicians that you go where the biggest check is.

SPEAKER_07

Right, right. But and but here's the thing, because when we start talking about gig versus ministry, like again, you gotta, if you're gonna, if you're paying someone to do a job or a service, that portion of it is gig. Right? Um, and if you treat and approach the relationship from again, that's why I said we wanna be corporate when it's suitable and it's spiritual, and it's like, yo, what We gotta from the inception of the conversation, the two need to be married. Right. If there's if this is if this is a uh a um paid position, marry the two, marry corporate and spiritual immediately, so there's no blurred lines. Right, right. Let's understand what it is from the beginning of the conversation. Let's understand what this is, and then let's set the uh the clear expectations of the role of the gig.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

And then let me be able to separate the role of the gig from what the things that I may do extra because of ministry purposes.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, so let me kind of like personalize this, right? So I have a friend. Um I'm not gonna say his name, but I have a friend, and he is a worship leader. I I can only speak on the on the side of a worship leader because I'm not a musician and I know that those are it's kind of like two different worlds, or is it? I don't really know.

SPEAKER_07

But yes, yes. Now, should it be? That's a whole nother we'll dive into that in a second. Correct.

SPEAKER_02

But okay, so I have a friend, he's a worship leader, he goes to different, he goes to a lot of different churches, and he ministers at a lot of different places. And um, one of the things that I noticed is that, and I hope if this friend is watching this, they're probably going to know who I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_03

I love you so much, it's no shade, it's just a question, it's just something on my mind.

SPEAKER_02

Um but like one of the things that I hear that kind of plays into what this pastor was talking about is oh gosh, this is probably gonna put a lot of people on blast. But they always say, What is this check looking like? Right? So like we're looking at the kind of church, we're looking at how big the church so that we can know how much to ask, so that we can and and I'm I'm coming from a generation of you want me to fix it. No, I want to just say it. I'm coming from a generation of a mindset where first of all, coming up as a worship leader, we wasn't a paid. Paid? What are you getting paid for? Like this is ministry, right? So so so I'm coming from the mindset of the money should not matter. Or the money should not matter as much as, you know, we're just doing this for the Lord and all the things. So now fast forward to today and I I see how my friend like operates and stuff, and and just the language around it, it sounds, I don't know what to make of it because it it sounds icky, it feels it feels weird, but I do know that there's a scripture that says that uh uh I don't remember the exact scripture, but a minister or a prophet is worth his wages or something, it's worth his hire.

SPEAKER_07

I know. Do you know what I'm talking about? The scripture I feel like I need to find it to um uh yeah, it it it actually uh Lord help me. Um a workman worthy of his hire, something somewhere in there. I can't think, but I do remember looking that up, and it really doesn't really pertain to what we're discussing.

SPEAKER_02

The laborer is worthy of his hire, 1 Timothy 5, um, verse 18.

SPEAKER_07

In context, um it it doesn't really equate to the emotional attachment of ministry.

SPEAKER_02

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_07

Okay, okay. The reason it sounds icky and feels icky is because it because it is icky. It's a sticky, it's a sticky, icky landscape there that you got to walk through. Right. Number one, we wasn't leading worship everywhere.

SPEAKER_02

True. That's oh, that's a very good point.

SPEAKER_07

So again, we get to, as time transitions, we have more ministries. Back in the day, you could be leading worship at your church. You might not have been the best singer, you might have been what you got. You gave it you all, but that was your church, which is why you not being paid as a professional didn't really matter.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_07

But we've changed into this uh mindset of I gotta have the best representation. So now you're hiring. And okay, the reason you get to go to different churches, and because now they're looking to put the best representation in. So you're hiring again, and that's why it starts feeling weird. Now, to me, it's it's not necessarily that it's so it's ugly or shouldn't be ugly, because the reality is all of them churches ain't your church, right?

SPEAKER_05

Right, right.

SPEAKER_07

You are you are at at that point, you are rendering a service, right? If you're a singer, you're you're and you this is what you do, you're rendering a service at that point. Do you love the Lord? Yes. Do you worship him in spirit and in truth? Yes, that's fine. But at the end of the day, you did that at nine o'clock this morning. You know what I'm saying? Now you got to go do it at 10:30 at somebody else's church. You were at your church at nine. Yeah, you going over there at 10:30, that's a service. And if you got to go do it somewhere else, that's a service. And so the problem is every church that you go to, they want to deem you as theirs.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_07

And now they start feeling like, well, well, we're having another thing. We shouldn't have to pay you for this extra thing because you know so this is where the water starts getting a little murky and stuff like that. And so when you even mention like not being paid, my thought, I know this don't exist everywhere, just my personal opinion. Uh-huh. I know it's not realistic for every ministry, but I just feel like if you want the best representation of a praise team musically, you know, worship team musically, and all these things, I feel like everyone that is giving you that quality of a thing, yeah, should be on the payroll.

SPEAKER_05

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07

I that's just my the the way my brain thinks that it should go.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

That's not always the case. And yes, a lot of our churches are volunteer-based, and and I understand that. But if if a requirement of yours as the head of the house is to have a certain uh level or tier or standard of um musical expressions of worship, hear what I said. Musical expressions of worship. Okay. Because worship ain't music. Yikes. It's an expression that we use in worship. Correct. Right. So we we who control our limbs to play and make sounds and voices and things. Right. That is our expression of worship.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_07

Worship more so lives in the world of obedience.

SPEAKER_05

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_07

Right. Right. And so it is, and it is us taking charge of our our our bodies, our souls, our spirits, and saying, in this moment, what you are going to do is you are going to take your whole being and surrender it and give worship and praise and honor and glorify the name of the Lord. So when we are worshiping in song, we are taking our melodic tones and things, and we are sending that specifically up to God.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_07

And um, so again, I know I start. Ivory, you already know.

SPEAKER_02

I know, I know. And okay, I want to ask this question. It's probably a really stupid question. Okay, but it's a question that I've had that I don't, I don't know. I don't I don't know. Okay, so this is very practical. Very practical. So let's say you are a traveling worship leader, you go from here and there, let's say you're your musician, you go from here and there. How do we properly rate ourselves? How do we properly determine how much we should get paid? And let me just say this I hate having that conversation. Oh, most of us. The ideal would be for because I've been in situations where the ministry will come up to me and they say, Hey, would love you to come and help our ministry and come and lead, like maybe twice a month, or whatever you can give. They don't say nothing about money. So now you have because you got to be the one to travel to this location. So you got the gas, huh? Now I have a nine to five. So like whatever I whatever I get from a ministry is not is is not my bread and butter. Do you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_07

I'm gonna look like the real, I'm gonna look like a terrible guy. These are the conversations we need to have. Hello, this is off my sorry. I'm sorry. I know this just it this is and again, this is me. The people gonna probably gonna be in the company, like, don't have him, don't have him come back.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, we love you, we love you. But here's what I'm saying. Here's what I'm saying. Here's what I'm saying. So, like, they don't they don't say nothing about it, right? So now you got to be the one to be like, all right, dang, like, do I say something? And is that gonna make me seem like I'm money hungry and and all the things? And then you know, you give, oh, so then, so then you bring it up. It's mad awkward. You're like, yeah, so are you going to pay? And then there's some sort of compensation love offering, my god, and and then they say, Oh, yeah, you know, 150. Now, depending, depending on it it it the number all depends on where, you know, where the church, the ministry, the scope, whatever. And I'm just throwing out a number. Um and and let's say for you as the musician or the worship leader, there might be this pressure to just accept whatever they tell you because you don't want to be like, no, actually, my rate is 500. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_07

And it's because now you look like the jerk.

SPEAKER_02

Correct, correct. And I feel like the the ideal would be for churches to like actually recognize the value of the people that they are asking to come into the ministries and actually decide to pay them properly. So my question is one, what do you think about that? And two, how do we because I've heard some I've heard some exorbitant numbers? Like again, my friend, I love you, my friend. I'm not gonna put you out here. But no, my friend, like he's okay. This person has told me like the numbers that he has given to to places, and granted, it it all depends on do I have to rent a car? You know, who's paying for the rental of this car? Gas, food, like, am I bringing in musicians with me? It there's a whole lot of stuff that comes to it. Do you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_07

You are striking many nerves and go ahead. I'm just this quadrant. I'm just saying, you know, here I think it's all always gonna bring me back to we want to be corporate, right, when it's feasible for you, and then we also then we want to be spiritual when we're trying to make it work in our favor. Right. And so what's your what's your worth? What's your value? What do you what do you deem your gifts value to be? Now it's but what's gonna determine the value? The value is usually determined. You can say, I could say I'm a thousand dollar guy, right? But to the person who's looking to hire me, he may say, Well, in my eyes, you're a$500 guy. Right. Right?

SPEAKER_02

But then can I pause you right here? Because for me to say, for me to say I'm a thousand dollar thousand dollar girl, do you know how how crazy that sounds? Like, it sounds so arrogant.

SPEAKER_07

Let me tell you what sounds crazier. And this is on the this is from not just the church side, okay, but the the we'll call it secular side. I I actually was at work having a conversation with some fellow musicians, right? Some of these guys are they're they're older than me, um, and they've been in the scene when I was younger. Right. So when they were playing out in the scene, I used to go and say, oh man, look at these guys playing. So 30 years ago, the number was, oh, we got we went to go do this gig. It paid like 125, 150.

SPEAKER_05

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02

30 years ago. Because yesterday's price. No.

SPEAKER_07

Today's price is 125, 150.

SPEAKER_02

Correct, right.

SPEAKER_07

And that you see what I'm saying. That is crazy. That's what sounds crazy to me. Well, that is what sounds crazy to me. So for me to say I'm a thousand dollar guy and you push me back to 500 when 30 years ago the rate was 500. Right. Is bananas. The economy has shifted, like, not only, oh, you pushing buttons. Um, not only has the economy shifted, right? But in a lot of our ministries, we are demanding more.

SPEAKER_02

That is so true for less.

SPEAKER_07

And we're demanding more for less. Yeah. We're not only demanding more for less, um, but we're only demanding more because of monkey see, monkey do.

SPEAKER_05

Yikes.

SPEAKER_07

And and so, and again, I'm I know I'm gonna be bad guy on this. It's so it's okay. It's okay because it's just okay. Um, the reality is take away the take away the internet, take away your accessibility to some of these conferences, just on the word of God alone. You lose half of the things we're doing. Probably 80% of the things that we do in our modern ministries, you lose it. It's out the window.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

Because you're not having a men's conference anymore, because you're only having a men's conference because you've seen somebody else have a men's conference, and you thought that was a good idea. So now I want to have my own men's conference, even though you only have a 30-member church. I did an event with my group back in the day. We had to drive to Valdosta, Georgia to sing at 100 men of valor. This was the name of the event.

SPEAKER_05

Don't tell me there was 25.

SPEAKER_07

100 Men of Valor. There was about 30 people in the entire, and now they went to the school auditorium, y'all. A school auditorium. There might have been 30 attendees, which my group consisted of four male vocalists, and our our manager, one of our managers was a man, the the guest speaker was a man, and there might have been three other men in the entire building. That's crazy. Who told them? I'm sorry, and I know I'll sound now I sound like I'm going off, but I but who told them to do a hundred men of valor? If we knew you didn't have reach for a hundred men, some stuff we blame on faith and spirituality that is just a lack of common sense. And so this is again where we start trying to spiritualize things to make it fit our what we think we want. And it was like, we got to cut that out. This is and this is the reason why now you have you have events like that, you have things like that where you're saying, Oh, well, I have to bring this group in. They've paid us to come there. They paid us to come there. You paid this group to drive from South Florida to Val Dosta, Georgia, to come to this hundred men of Valor. And I can't even tell y'all what happened after that because it at the end of that event. It it just a lot of it just went down south. Like, and again, it's like there's a level of, okay, um, we didn't shift our value for that. Right, right. What we what we what we thought we were worth, we didn't shift our value for that. Um, because you asked again, I'm I don't want to go too far off topic, but you with the conversation is right now, like, how do we determine what's our worth in that space? Right. Um, the reality is if you tell me you're a thousand dollars and I talk you down to five, then and you and you agree, then I've determined your worth. Because if we go to public supermarket right now and they tell me that this bottle of this of Dasani, this one uh one liter bottle of Dasani is five dollars, I can't go in there and tell them, well, I'm only gonna pay three. Because they've determined the value. So technically we determine our own value. Is our own value realistic sometimes? No. And and again, when you're if if I'm in if I'm in a desperate situation and that's the only and I am I'm badly in need of water, and that's the only bottle, and I personally hate the signing. But if that's the only bottle of water, I'm gonna pay the five because I'm desperate. This is where a lot of us end up. And so when we talk about the hiring aspect versus like feeling, like, I don't feel like no, I don't feel like people should feel no type of way. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pinch somebody's skin real quick.

SPEAKER_02

Go ahead. Just go ahead.

SPEAKER_07

I don't feel like you as a worship leader should feel any type of way if you end up having to do three or four services on a Sunday at different ministries and are being compensated to do so. I think number one, I think that's I said it a second ago. I think some of our some of our reality is off when it comes to our worth. You know, and that's why sometimes like it's even for myself, it's hard for me to like when people be like, how much you gonna charge for this? So do I sometimes I gotta think. Like some people, they don't think about it. They be like, Oh yeah, it's gonna, I'm I'm charging this for this service or whatever. Sometimes I gotta think. Because I I'm no matter how much friends of mine or people that know me hype me up, like I have a governor.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

My governor tells me, like, bro, you know your limit. Like, so I don't care how high you talk. Me up. Oh, he's one of the best keyboard players in the world. He can play anything. No, I can't. I'm gonna let you talk. I'm gonna let you talk. But I know my limitations. So when you start asking me, okay, well, how much you gonna charge for? Um, I start thinking, I'm like, okay, yes, I know what I know what I would like. Yeah, but let me see what's realistic for what I can actually deliver. Right. And most of us don't take, we don't do that. And so there you end up with this situation of advantage taking in the church space, you and you're taking advantage from as a musician, right? And sometimes you're being taken advantage of as a musician. Right, right. Because um you might you might be saying, hey, okay, well, I'll do it for this, you know, and I'm I'll do it. And and then again, not taking in consideration all that might entail, or you might be getting requested to do. Right. And now you went from, yeah, I'll do it for this much. Yeah, it's we got what? One service on Sunday, and okay, you want me to come to one choir rehearsal? No problem. And you got one service in the choir rehearsal that now turned into three services, a Sunday and a Bible study, and then the choir rehearsal, and you might have got a$50 raise if they was being nice. Yeah. So if it that's why I said to me, is like when we start talking about money in the ministry and music and what and the things we want, there's a part of this video. I know you probably read this and chuckled. They were touching on uh where the young lady and the musician are serving at now, where the dynamic kind of shifted from uh sets to right, so they they they shifted dynamics because one of the things that came up in the conversation was you know, uh the pastors were saying, we don't want no sets, y'all come in here to play sets, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like like it, and I understand. And so they shifted the dynamics of how they were approaching worship, and I love the conversation they had and where that conversation led to, because at that moment the leaders of that ministry understood what they wanted. And even if it took time to get there, they were in in clear enough communication and relationship with their team to uh to express the shift that they wanted to see happen. Um and I wrote down um the a problem that I think a lot of us have is it's like it's the difference between what you think you want versus what you don't realize you have.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_07

Is your cap is your is your team capable of delivering your fantasized worship?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, okay, okay, let's stay right here. Let's say la right here. Because one of the things that irritates me as a worship leader irritates me is when a pastor wants something fantastical, right? They do, like you said, they do not recognize what they actually have, what this what your people are actually capable of doing. And then they request something from you as the worship leader or the band that's like, I don't know how to do this, but it's like it's this pressure to to create to to do something that is outside of your scope. Now, I'm not saying that we shouldn't be challenged, I think we should be challenged to grow and get better. Um, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there are times when like either it's on the fly or like very short notice. Hey, I need y'all to do this. Well, I one can't sing that. Two, like, we can't play that. And it's like it's it irritates me. Do you know what I'm saying? I feel like I lost it.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, because the past a lot, no, a lot of pastors don't understand, they don't understand what they actually have. It feels unfair. Okay, so there's a difference between a some pastors are musically inclined, some leaders of their house, they're musically inclined. They might they have an ear for it, they understand what it is, right? Like all the things that it is. Right. Then you have uh a lot of the other pastors, which they like music or love music, but they don't necessarily have a full understanding of what that really embodies and in the in the hidden uh details of what that is.

SPEAKER_02

So when they tell you, hey, I want you to sing this particular song and sing it just like the track, and you're just like they don't understand.

SPEAKER_07

I can't do that, it's not in your red.

SPEAKER_02

They look at you and they're like, Well, why? Why can't you do this? Why can't you do that? I don't understand. And it's like, but when we've been doing ministry and this has never come up, we didn't have this conversation, this was never like a thing, and now all of a sudden, maybe because you saw something that you saw on YouTube or you saw another ministry doing it, and you thought it was fabulous, and the glory of God fell in that moment, and you come back to us talking about we need to do the same thing, bro.

SPEAKER_07

Like And there's nothing wrong with like seeing somebody else do something because I know what I said earlier, and I want to make sure I'm I'm clear. There's nothing, there's nothing wrong with being inspired, right?

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_07

But in your in your being inspired, make sure that you understand what that is. Like if you want to, if you want to replicate or duplicate whatever that is you saw, yeah, like you have to have some understanding of how that came about, right? And what that is that actually made that a possibility.

SPEAKER_02

Or can we have a conversation? Pastor, can we can you sit down with us and talk to us and say, hey, I saw this or I heard this, and I do you think you guys can do that? Like, let's have a conversation, let's have a conversation. It goes back to what you were saying in the beginning, like the communication between pastor and worship leader or pastor and and worship ministry is just not really there. And it's like it's it's this demand to pull some to create bread out of stone.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, Jesus. He's just trying to be like him. Oh my god. No, that that's a real thing. That's a real thing. Like at the end of the day, um, if you're not full, if you're not fully aware and and understanding of how certain things and dynamics work in your ministry, like if you're not fully, if if you aren't a video producer uh or had worked in uh broadcasting and certain things yourself at and you're the pastor, and you don't understand the nuances of that world, right, then before you go requesting a bunch of stuff of your volunteers or putting a demand on them to do certain things and expecting it from them, like actually maybe get somebody. If we're talking about hiring, get somebody who actually works in that world.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_07

And now we now now we're back to the conversation of are we hiring or are we looking to pastor? Because see the thing is you can hire someone and they can eventually, if without pressure, they if they if you're doing what you need to do as the pastor and talking and talking the talk and walking the walk, then eventually they may, you may become their pastor. Okay, but you might need to just hire a professional that knows what they're doing in that department and let them help your volunteers grow into what you need them to be. Okay, so same thing with the music department, you know, like get somebody in there who is proficient at that task and understands and can communicate with you as the leader so that you can have a better understanding of what that looks like.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, so I'm rolling up my sleeves because we're gonna go. I see it.

SPEAKER_08

I see it girl ready to fight.

SPEAKER_02

We're gonna go into, and I'm gonna play this clip because this goes to that uh clip, the original clip that you sent me, okay? Can you be pastored as a worship leader? Can you worship leader? Can you musician? Can you audio person? Can you regular worship team member? Can you be pastored? And I wanna, I I I had so many emotions that came up when I saw that clip because yeah, and it's a great conversation, and it's a needed conversation. Okay, so it was okay, 40 49 minutes, 49 minutes, and I feel like this lady when she this pastor, the young pastor, I feel like she had something on her when she said it.

SPEAKER_04

Because I was like, ma'am, you didn't have to come for our lives like that.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, all right, I'm gonna play this. Number two, this is gonna ruffle feathers, but amen. That's that's what talk your talk, amen. Worship leaders are our hero. Can you be pastored? What is wrong with getting a pastor? So many times you see worship leaders that want um, you know, they they want the W9. But you don't we are to be shepherded.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And if you're never connected anywhere ever, if nobody, if you're my old pastor used to say you need to be committed to God and connected to your leadership. If you are not committed to God and you can't submit to anybody, it's your way or the highway. I see a ton of worship leaders not pastored. You can't tell them nothing because I'm gifted, so their gift supersedes the word of God. The devil is a liar. We gotta submit to leadership. Oh, for sure. If we don't submit to leadership, leaders protect, they cover, they shepherd hearts. I I see this all over the world. Worship leaders don't want their hearts shepherded. Let me do me.

SPEAKER_00

There's a reason, and I'm not, and I'm not in that category, but I get it. I I'm I'm I may be partly in, but I have I have a pastor and I'm I'm under him and I follow them just to get that out there. And not as a connection and nothing, but you're right, but does the connection before celebrity culture? Yeah, because I don't feel just speaking for worship leaders, I don't feel that worship leaders are looking to be in people's churches and just go from one church to the next church if it doesn't work out. I really believe that a person that God has given a gift to, they want to connect with someone that they can trust. And I really believe that they want to connect to a community and a church that they don't have to um um come up out of that. But I feel like there are there's a statistic, and I did some some research that worship leaders are leaving, they're just leaving the churches because of the because of what it has become. So it's a hard thing. Uh, some of that is is you know, because of what they may have gone through in previous relationships.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, there is so much here. Let me tell you my original feeling. Let's have it when she said worship leaders are out here rogue. Oh my gosh. Okay, help me, Holy Spirit. Because there's so many thoughts that I had going through my mind, partly because of my own experiences, right? She said, Worship leaders are out here rogue. Can you be pastored? I've had this conversation with another worship leader friend of mine, and one of the things that we said was we both said it irritates me. It irritates me. And and one of the worship leaders in this podcast, she was like, it irritates me. She was like, it irritates me. Because she was like, one of the things she said was, because I feel like you don't, you, you don't trust me. As the pastor, you don't trust me to do what you have asked me to do, what I've been called to do, what I feel like God has gifted me to do, you don't trust me. I hear that. And I was one of those people that had the same feeling. And I wonder, Dwayne, I wonder, because I'm in a season where the Lord has been checking me in every which way. Okay. And I wonder if that is wrong. Is there a part of it that that's your pride? And and I I wonder, I'm just asking these questions because beloved, I was one of those people that's like, it irritates me. Yes, it does irritate me. That's one thing. I don't know if you want to hit on that first, and then I go through other points.

SPEAKER_07

Real quick, I think, I think the reason that it's it irritates um is I don't want to sound like I'm coming for pastors. I'm not.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07

But I feel like uh this goes back to the relationship, yeah, the status of the relationship. Like, when you felt like that, was the relationship between you and your leader in a place where y'all might even just go somewhere and experience other worship ministries together?

SPEAKER_05

No.

SPEAKER_07

Like, were you in a place with that leader where you were able to like understand the heart of that leader in when it comes to the worship music space? And I think, see, the reason I'm asking that because I feel like most people who are in a frustrated area in that regard are typically in that space because they don't know what it is that their leader actually wants. And so when the leader finally decides to come and talk to them and tell them, okay, well, I want you to do this and I want you to do that. And I'm like, well, based on our relationship dynamic, you hired me to deal with worship. And so now you're talking coming to me telling me how you want to do worship, and I just and there's like there's no relationship, there's no true connection there to even say, like, that conversation shouldn't, it shouldn't irritate you. I feel like it shouldn't, but it only does because y'all don't have a relationship that y'all have uh uh fostered together in that space of worship music.

SPEAKER_02

Here's my here's my question. What is pastoring? Because because what you're describing to me just sounds like regular instruction.

SPEAKER_07

It just it just sounds like it because Well instruction is like what most people are getting, which is frustrating. But they're just getting instructions.

SPEAKER_02

Is that the same thing as being pastored though? Because for me, pastor No, that's just being a boss. But that exact okay, okay. So then that's what I'm saying. So so I feel like we are confusing the are we confusing the two? Are we frustrated because the pastor is coming to us like a boss? Or are we frustrated about the idea of being pastored? Because being pastored in my mind is someone who's looking after your heart, someone who's looking after your soul.

SPEAKER_07

So and so let the dynamics of that start from the beginning, number one, right? Let me know that that's what we're here for. Uh okay, okay. That number one, and then if that is what we're here for, then let's build on that relationship and not just okay, I'm your pastor. Did you guys select the songs for Sunday yet? Okay, good. All right, I want y'all to do a good job now. All right, let's come on, let's worship together. That's the because the reality is that's the dynamics of most of the pastor in the music department. Yeah, that is the dynamics. You know, it's like, okay, let me see what you guys got.

SPEAKER_02

Right, right, and I opposed to so because they were saying, she was saying worship leaders out here being rogue, you don't want to be pastored. And and maybe it's just me. Here are my thoughts. I'm not okay, help me, Holy Ghost, because I want to be clear.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, be clear.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's not that I can only speak for myself. I can't speak for every worship leader. I can only speak for me. It's not that I want to be rogue, and I don't think that most of us want to be rogue. I think if we are being rogue, it's because there's a distrust. There is um the experiences that we've had in the past, maybe from other places that we're coming from, um, where we've experienced a lot of hurt and our hearts have not been handled properly. Um and there is this dynamic where a lot of worship leaders and musicians just feel used. They don't feel like the pastors actually care about their well-being, that actually care about their hearts, care about them as a person, completely separate from what they give or what they contribute to your to their ministry, right? So I don't I'm not trying to be rogue. If it comes across that I don't want to be pastored, maybe it's because and maybe the the pastor should get curious about well, why does it seem like you are standoffish in that way? And if you ask those questions, if you really get curious, I think the worship leader, I think for me, I would be willing to tell you I've been hurt deeply in the past. I've been hurt by other pastors, by other leaders that have just used me and abused me. Um, and there's this feeling of fear and a lack of trust to to, in a sense, give myself over to another ministry again. Like you're aware of what happened to me in my situation, um, which I've already shared on this platform, but like for me, the thing that I'm still working through is there and it's it's crazy because I think I told the story in that episode um where the Lord woke me up in the middle of the night and I got up to pray and I was praying and I was writing in my journal, and this this thought just literally fell out the sky. I wasn't thinking about it, it wasn't anywhere in my mind, it just literally fell in my spirit, and I really felt like it was the Lord pointing out something to me that you are afraid to submit yourself to another ministry again. You are afraid, and I was like, and am I like it it scares me to death because there's this idea that um I've been I've been manipulated, I've been, you know, sometimes leaders conflate manipulation and control with pastoring.

SPEAKER_07

And let can't let's let's talk about it. The reality is there's level, there's a level of that that often happens in ministry where it's there is the game, the game that we play is like, you know, like come on. The the the re the reason that we are even in this conversation is because there's not enough, there's not enough truth being spoken. Yeah, there's not enough, like let me just tell you what I really want and how I really feel about it, and and let's see where you are with my feelings. And then I'll see where you are with your feelings. And if we are in line with our feelings, then we can probably have A great working relationship, yeah, right. But what we do a lot of times is we say what we think sounds right versus saying what we really want to say, like us as worship leaders and the and the leadership and the pastors on both sides, okay. You know, we we say what we think is supposed to be said, um, to to get that relationship going between okay, yeah, I won't I need to get a worship leader in in the house, and I'm gonna say the things that I I want to see. I'm gonna say the things that I want to see that are that sound spiritually correct.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07

And and and now you have bought in, and now that you're bought in and you're serving, you're doing the thing, it's like now little pieces of my truth start to spill over into how I really feel about what I really want to see, and now you start feeling away because that's not kind of what we talked about, right? But now you start okay, and now now you're starting to show your colors in the fact of like, well, I ain't really feeling that. And so now I'm low-key anti. Yeah, so I think that's how we land in that situation of number one, um, not speaking the the our truth, like why we what we really want. Because again, and it's it's okay if we don't really know in the beginning, yeah. But if we have a real relationship, if you are now, number one, I think as the pastor, if I'm the pastor and I'm asking you to be my worship leader at the church, um, I feel like as you being the person who is going to be kind of like seen before me, I feel like we should really be on the same page.

SPEAKER_02

We should be locked in.

SPEAKER_07

We should be locked in, which means like up to the point where it's like, all right, it's after church. All right, Ivory, I'm gonna see you at the house for dinner. All right, because you need to be on my hip. You need to be on my hip. And you need to hear, you need to hear all my my groanings and my moanings and all of the things that trouble my heart, correct, things that make my heart happy. And I need to know that what if if you're once we lock in, if we're locked there, then I know that when you go before me, you're singing songs that are going to prepare me for ministry. Yes, you're preparing the house because you know the heart and the and and where the posture of the leader is. And there's I don't think that's the that's not the dynamic. And so that what happens is now now we're frustrated and we don't we feel like I don't want to be pastored in a sense because I don't know my pastor. I don't know the pastor. That's not my pastor, I don't know the pastor, because to pastor me means that you are building relationships, you're building relationship with me, you're leading me. You're my you're you're my shepherd here on earth, in sense. And so for me to follow you, like you spend time with me. Like the shepherd spends time with his sheep, and not just sitting here teaching me, like, no, I'm I'm I'm I'm taking care of my sheep's uh uh uh uh fur, fur, that's not the right word. No, I think whatever, but um I'm grooming my sheep. Yeah, I'm bathing my sheep, I'm taking care, I'm feeding my sheep. I'm making sure that my my sheep, they don't just they don't just come to me to see what's next, they come to me to feel love. Yes, yes, and if I don't feel like I have that type of relationship with you, then technically you're my boss. Correct. In that space, you're just my you're just my supervisor, you're my boss. And and so in in in this setting that we call uh ministry church worship is like if you want to have a healthy dynamic there, there needs to be the there needs to be a stronger bond in that pastor, worship team, musician dynamic, where it is like, hey, like y'all understand my heart, y'all actually know my ebbs and flows and what where I want to go and where I see what I see for the vision. And then now you can say whether you agree with it or not. And if you don't agree with it, now we can have that conversation to say, well, you know, I don't really know if I really vibe with that pastor. Like, I'm not really sure we on the same page, you know, and then now we can have the conversation. Well, all right, you know what, man, it's no problem. I understand that we might not can you vibe with me for like a couple months, let me find somebody else to kind of get in the seat.

SPEAKER_02

So let me answer this question because they also talked about this too. Should should that relationship be only with let and let's just let's paint the scenario here. Let's say you have a worship uh a worship team, right? And so you got like five or six members, you have someone who's over the worship team, and then you have lead pastor, right? So, like what I see in my own experience is that the lead pastor is only in relationship of some sort of the worship pastor. Don't have really nothing to do with everyone else who's under that worship pastor. And then there's this hierarchy of who do you go to as I said regular worship member? You're not the worship pastor. So, like you that worship member is supposed to go to the worship pastor, who then the pastor worship pastor is goes to the lead. But what happens if like should that lead pastor also be in relationship with everybody on the worship team, including all the musicians? Um because sometimes, and this is just my maybe it's just me, but like I want to be in relationship with my pastor. Even if I'm not the worship pastor, I'm on the worship team. I want to be in relationship with my pastor. Is that unreasonable?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, uh it's not unreasonable. I think that there is a level of hierarchy, and I and again, this is this is structure. So this is if you want to call it corporate, fine. But there is like I feel like the the the the I don't want to call them random, but let's just say the our regular soprano just that single. That's crazy. You're not random. Yeah, random, but let's just say you're just a soprano on the praise team. Right. There's there is a hierarchy. I don't feel like your your soprano number two and soprano number three need to have the same dynamic of relationship with the pastor as the worship pastor.

SPEAKER_05

Okay.

SPEAKER_07

But there should be a level of um of relationship. Yes, like the the the the worship pastor holds the pastor, basically bears the pastor's heart. Like they're you know, they're they're that close. And that worship pastor should be able to convey some of that um to the worship team under him. Um, but there shouldn't be a disconnect from lead pastor that where you don't have no real relationship. Like again, this is it's and to me, it's simple things. It's like, yo, we're gonna we're going out bowling. I want to come hang out with my whole music department.

SPEAKER_02

Love that.

SPEAKER_07

Like, we're going bowling. Uh, this is just me and the music department. I want to spend some time with y'all and and and y'all really kind of get the vibe with me. And then we'll talk, you know. We it's like coming to sit in and having conversations, let y'all into where I'm at. Yes. Like, like my worship pastor already knows most of this stuff, right? But I want to come and give y'all a little insight so y'all can feel where I'm at and and we can kind of get on the same wavelength a little bit, and and that y'all don't feel so far away and disconnected from me.

SPEAKER_02

I'm gonna throw in a monkey wrench. I'm gonna throw in a monkey wrench because one of the things that they talked about in this episode was the need for the worship pastor to feel supported by their by their pastor, right? Get that understood. You don't want to feel as the leader that the pastor kind of like undercuts your leadership and you feel like they don't have your back. I get that. Yeah, but let's say soprano number uh two, right, is having some major issues with the worship pastor. And can we just can we keep it all the way up 100 here, please? Sometimes the worship pastor can be janky. Sometimes the worship pastor has a heart is toxic. Yeah, no, no, very true. Right.

SPEAKER_07

If that's the case, the it's the it's the lead pastor's fault because he ain't paying enough attention.

SPEAKER_02

Hello. Because because and and here's the thing that concerns me sometimes is that the pastor and the worship pastor become boys. Okay, right? And so there's a there, if that pastor is not careful and not discerning and doesn't understand boundaries, they will they will see past or not even catch up, catch the red flags or or discern what the spirit should be showing you. And then you got soprano number two, who's having issues with their worship pastor, and then because of the hierarchy, who are they supposed to go to?

SPEAKER_07

Well, the pastor in the video, one of the pastors uh in the video said that he was he brought up like um, yeah, you might be following me and coming around and going to all the things and doing the things, but are you able to basically take correction when I give it?

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_07

Right? Right. And so the worship pastor, yeah, y'all boys. Y'all could be boys and all of that, but the if the if the if the lead pastor, if the house, if the head of the house gets into a place where he feels he can't correct his boy, who is essentially his worship leader, his worship pastor, then that something's wrong with that dynamic. Because if it if it pertaining to the house, the the things of the house, the matters of of the uh the house, and you can't correct that person, then that means that yeah, there's gonna be a toxic transition down to the to the rest of the team. Yeah, so now he feels like he could do whatever he wants because pastor not finna check me. So yeah, if I mean Soprano number two start falling out, it's it is what it is, right? You know, and so that's why I said it starts from the head down. Y'all need to be close and they and have an understanding, and and again, that relationship ain't to say necessarily you gonna you need to be best friends, right? But you need to be close enough to understand where my heart is pertaining to this part of the ministry and the ministry at large. And so I'm not saying y'all need to go bask play basketball together every every Friday, you know what I'm saying? But if you are going to play basketball every Friday, in that hooping, there needs to be some conversation, there needs to be some moment where y'all are going like, hey man, I'm going, there's a uh a worship thing going down on down the road here. I want you to come with me. We're gonna go out there, let's just, you know, take in what it is, boom, boom. Yeah, and and then we're gonna go out to eat and we're gonna talk about what we just experienced and all that. You know what I'm saying? So there needs to be that level, and then if you have a friendship that is the uh outside of, you know, like, oh yeah, we go and hoop together on the weekends, yeah, that's good. But there's still a dynamic of as pastor, like as much as we might be boys, as pastor, I still got to be submissive to wherever you want this to go. And because I'm so close to you, I understand it, and I don't feel no type of way I about uh you correcting me, I'm able to take the correction. Right. Um and yes, every every pastor doesn't necessarily have the best heart in regard to you know, we're people. Everybody it's this is individual, this is a case-by-case thing, yeah. So, yeah, what I'm saying don't pertain to everybody. Some people, some pastors are janky, some worship pastors are janky, yeah, then the people under them they might be janky.

SPEAKER_04

Correct.

SPEAKER_07

But in in in in all it, what sh what we would love to be the scenario is yes, you have a pastor with a heart of goal, and if he's correcting you, he's correcting you on good merit and good standard because of what he sees for the ministry, and it's it's biblical, it's sound, the correction needed to happen. You take the correction, you bring it the correction down to your people, you let them understand that there's a shift here. I did something out of pocket. We have discussed, it's boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And you move forward. And then that's how you keep, that's how you create that unity in the space. And and I think that is a part of what's lacking a lot in that dynamic, the church dynamic, when you're talking about worship ministry and and the leadership, um, is those relational points, them relational spots where it's like, yo, you're not just you not just my boss.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_07

Or you are.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_07

But and if you're just gonna be that, we understand that from day one.

SPEAKER_02

I think that I think that musicians and worship leaders, I feel like when we come to a place, let's say we're we're going to a place and we're helping out, I feel like it's like the dating. It's like we're we're dating that church. Oh, we're dating that pastor. And I think sometimes I think pastors expect us to just be like, we love you and we're here day one.

SPEAKER_07

Day one, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Day one. And it's like, but you didn't take no time to like you ain't courting me. At all. At all.

SPEAKER_07

You at and that's why I say at the end of the day, it's like, yo, you approached me because you needed a service. Right. So this relationship started off as a business. Right. You you approached me because you needed a service. I'm rendering a service for hire.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_07

And so if you want this relationship to go beyond that, then you gotta court me. Correct.

SPEAKER_02

Correct. I think pastors need to understand that and not be offended by that. I don't think most of us are looking to just jump from one place to the other. I think a lot of us really want to be planted, but we also want to know that we where we are about to be connected to, that leadership actually really cares about us. And so, like, there is a dating portion to this that I don't think pastors understand. And I think they may even like get offended or take offense, like, why don't you just want to join us right away? Like, bro, I don't I don't know you, and you don't know me, and that relationship takes time. There's so much more that could be said in this conversation, but I think we've had this is about an hour and a half after I like chop out all the pickups. This is about an hour and a half, and this was so good. But I would say to everyone, please go watch this episode. It's called Worship Leaders Speak Out um on uh Aria Gaston's um YouTube, and I'll put it in the show notes so that you can you guys can go back and take a look at it.

SPEAKER_07

If you got muted, your mic just got muted. Fix that while I'm saying, I think they came out with a part two, not I think I saw they had a part two with it, but it's only like three of them having a conversation. I haven't dived into that part two yet.

SPEAKER_02

I saw that. Um, I clicked on it, I didn't really get into that one yet because I knew I really wanted to have the conversation about this one first. Yeah, but I will go back and check that one out. But um anyway, I just want to say I hope y'all this blessed y'all. I hope this um helped you. I hope maybe this added language to some of the things that you were feeling. Please like comment, put that stuff in the chat. Like comment, let me know. What do you think and what are your thoughts and all the things? Um, please, if you like this content, subscribe, share it, uh, send it to your friends, send it to your worship team, send it to your pastor. They might get offended, but amen. Um send send it to anyone that you really feel would benefit from this conversation. I love having these conversations, and we're gonna have so much more. Please know that we will have um my brother uh um Dwayne back. Uh, we're gonna be talking about other things, huh? Um Dwayne, thank you so much. I appreciate you your patience throughout this whole thing.

SPEAKER_07

It's always a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02

You're a saint. Um anyway, I don't have anything else to say. If you want to follow me, please follow me on Instagram, off mic with Ivory, off mic with IvoryMe on TikTok. And you can follow me personally on Ivory McDonald official on Instagram. And you can get this episode and the others um from the past and more to come on my YouTube, Ivory McDonald. And that's it. That's all I got to say. Until next time, I love y'all.