Season 4, Episode 11 - Worship or Performance - Can Worship and Business Coexist?

What happens when worship starts looking more like an industry than ministry?

In this episode of Off Mic with Ivory, I sit down with worship director and creative Dwyane Bennett for an honest conversation about the tension between worship, platform, performance, and profit. From concerts and production costs to branding and influence, we wrestle with a difficult but necessary question:

Have we made worship more about performance than presence?
More about platform than people?
More about consumers than participants?

This is a nuanced, honest, and needed conversation for worship leaders, musicians, creatives, and anyone passionate about worship staying centered on God.

Executively Produced by Ivory McDonald
Audio Engineered by Ivory McDonald
Video Filmed by Ivory McDonald
Video Edited by Humphrey Caswell Jr.
Music by Isaiah Garcia

©Off Mic with Ivory

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:22

What up, fam? Welcome back to Off Mic with Ivory. I am how about I look at the camera and not at my computer screen. I am your host, Ivory McDonald. This is the pod where we have the conversation that you want to have, but you can't have on your platform mics. We do it off mic with me. Again, I'm your host, Ivory McDonald. Um, if you have been rocking with me all this time, I appreciate you. Thank you for every comment, like, share, subscribe, all the things. I appreciate you so much. If you are new to this podcast, welcome. I'm a worship leader. I'm a daughter of the king. I am a believer. Uh what else? I'm a daughter, I'm a sister, I'm a friend, all the things. And I just love talking about worship. I love talking about life as well, because life is a journey, and I'm a firm believer that life affects us as worship leaders, whether you're in the actual ministry or you're a believer in Jesus, because we've all been called to be worshippers, huh? Well, let me introduce my guest. I mean, honestly, he's really not a guest at this point. He's kind of like low-key, uh, a co-host. Um, I call him when I want to have the real deep conversations that don't nobody want to talk about or are not well-versed enough to have the conversation. Um, because I really don't know a whole lot.

SPEAKER_07 1:40

I feel I feel honored because I don't be knowing nothing either.

SPEAKER_05 1:43

Okay. All right. Anyway, let's move on. My guest, my low-key co-host, is none other than Dwayne Bennett. He is a husband, he's a father, he is a producer, music producer, he's a music director, singer, plays every instrument known to mankind in just well-versed in. I don't know why you're shaking your head. Stop shaking your head. Um, well versed in the area of music and music ministry. So, Dwayne, welcome, my brother. Glad to be here once again. Praise God. Giving honor to God who is the hey glory. Brother, how you doing on today?

SPEAKER_07 2:27

I am well.

SPEAKER_05 2:28

I am blessed and highly favored.

SPEAKER_07 2:30

It's another day. We are alive, we can breathe.

SPEAKER_05 2:33

So, okay, so I sent you. Well, actually, it started with you sending me, or I think it was on your Instagram, and I just like it.

SPEAKER_07 2:42

Oh, I definitely, I definitely shared it in the story because I thought it was a great yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:48

So it was we're gonna be doing a lot of commentary on this season. Um, because hello, that's what the internet's for. Um, yeah, yeah. So there was a clip that you had sent me prior to this one that we're actually gonna talk about, and it's from Ellie, the uh content creator called Ellie Unbound. And we're not gonna get into that one because that's another time.

SPEAKER_07 3:16

This is a whole nother topic.

SPEAKER_05 3:17

I don't know if my brain is ready to wrap around all of that, but she has been like from what I can under from what I understand, just looking at her other posts, she I don't think she is a believer at the moment. I think she was, and she was in the area, she was a worship leader, and I'm assuming at a mega church, because she's she's mentioned that in several of her posts, but it looks like she's kind of walked away from at least the organization of church. Um and I think she's an agnostic now, if I'm not mistaken. It seemed it seems as though because I was looking through all her posts, and I was trying, I was really trying to like see where she's at. Because based on like the things that she actually posts, it it gives it's giving it's giving that we're not really on the same team. You feel me?

SPEAKER_07 4:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:21

Like I can tell she's obviously been hurt, she's gone through a lot with church and stuff. And so, okay, so the the clip that I want to discuss, and I said I was I sent this clip to you. She was talking, so she she did, she had a clip of Kim Walker um preaching, which I actually went to that sermon, that Kim Walker sermon. Um, and the whole crux of her sermon was not about what she's what I'm getting ready to play, but it was just like a snippet. So I did watch that snippet of the sermon. Um, but she was talking about the the idea of music industry infiltrating worship ministry. So let me play the clip, and then we'll go from there.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Worship music moved into the music industry. And when that happened, there was this exchange that happened. It wasn't just that worship music moved into the music industry, but the industry leaked into the church and started telling the church and showing the church this is what worship should look like. These are the songs you should sing, this is what your stage should look like, this is what your band should look like, this is what your lights should look like. And in that process, it kind of generated a lot more spectators than participants.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Okay, Kim Walkersm. Let's talk about it. Kim says that modern day worship culture has produced more spectators than participants. And I actually agree. I just think there's another shift that we could name. Modern worship culture has also not only produced spectators, but performers instead of worshipers. And that's not a personal attack, that's a systemic outcome. When worship becomes a career path, when faith is tied to branding, stages, ticketed events, emotional delivery, something changes. At some point, you're no longer leading worship. You are performing spirituality.

SPEAKER_05 6:21

Yikes. Okay. Brother. Brother, there is there is so much. Okay, now let's let's let me preface this by saying she's making, in my opinion, it feels like she's making a very broad, putting a broad a huge blanket on the whole thing.

SPEAKER_07 6:45

Which is true and reasonable.

SPEAKER_05 6:51

We gotta be clear that it's not every church that is like this. I just wanna I just wanna put that out there before the saints come for my neck.

SPEAKER_07 7:02

Okay, yeah, they're gonna come anyway, but it is a high percentage. And whether we like to admit it or not, we all we all tend to lean in one direction or another.

SPEAKER_05 7:14

Okay, so how do you wanna how do you want to start this conversation, brother? Because this is dense.

SPEAKER_07 7:20

Dang it. Um, I'm gonna tell you something. I actually like her content. Uh-huh. And uh, because I feel like no no matter where she is in her walk or belief system right now, I feel like she's never been disrespectful.

SPEAKER_05 7:37

Right, true, true.

SPEAKER_07 7:38

Of in sharing her facts or opinions. Okay. She's never come off disrespectful um towards whichever culture of conversation she's talking about. And um, and so I do appreciate that. And I do uh if we want to kind of jump into this, I really feel like we have to look at a couple of things. What is industry? The overview says a an industry is a group of businesses making similar products or offering similar services. Okay, so first part, business. I like to let's dive into that. Worship music has let the music industry cross over in its lanes. Yes, the business of music has tapped into the the space of worship, right? Just like the business of business has tapped into the space of ministry. Um I wanted to throw that out there because while we're talking about worship and we're talking about it in its perspective of ministry in church, um, I wanted to throw that out there so we could just clear the air of that.

SPEAKER_05 9:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 9:07

First, like we're just talking about the business aspect of the product of music and the product of ministry itself.

SPEAKER_05 9:19

Okay. Here's here's the question should there be such a thing as the business of worship ministry? It sounds crazy. It sounds crazy. Yes. Just in just saying that sounds crazy, right?

SPEAKER_07 9:37

It does sound crazy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:38

Here's the other thing. I understand people gotta get paid, right? There's because there's that. I saw a podcast one time with Naomi Rain talking to Lecrae about business and how we we can't be afraid of the business side of what we're doing. Because people gotta get paid. They do this for a living, they don't have a nine to five. This is their nine to five, so people have to get paid. And you have that, but then like you said, there is the the the janky side of this whole thing. It starts to get murky, it starts to get a little icky, and all the things. So should there should should there be should we should we even be profiting from like what's the question? I don't know what the question is.

SPEAKER_07 10:34

So no no no, good question. Should we be profiting? I will I'll I'll I'll we're gonna steer ourselves back into its place at in the church. Let's talk about it at large. Okay. Um we we shouldn't feel no type of way about doing business.

SPEAKER_04 10:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 10:54

Um, because though the reason that a lot of people have issues with a lot of this stuff is because most people who aren't on the side of the creative don't know the cost.

SPEAKER_05 11:07

True.

SPEAKER_07 11:08

So they don't know the sacrifice, they don't know, they don't know the the the back end, they don't know how much money somebody had to put in or how much somebody had to sew into this actual piece of art or whatever you want to call it that is now out for you to to uh consume. And um, and most people don't understand that. So, like, even with in the case of Naomi when she was talking to Lefrey, it's like, yeah, now you don't have a problem going to the concert. You don't went to the concert, you done spent all this money to go to the show, but you mad now that you had to spend a certain amount of money on a ticket, but you don't understand, like, I need y'all to go and look how much all them lights cost. Like, one of them lights is a car payment, just one of the smaller lights is the car payment, and so people don't understand. Like, in order to fill an arena full of people and for the all the people in the nosebleed to be able to see the stage, for you to be able to hear the sound, for you to be able to like get a clear picture of a performance, yeah, like it costs, it costs a lot. Yeah, it costs not just on the equipment, but the staffing, the people to run the thing. And then, like, before you even get that far, again, you don't know how much it costs these people to put this music into existence. Yeah, so there has to be business that needs to be taken care of. There has to be some type of recoupment that that happens um from this sacrifice you made. Most artists that are good, they sacrifice because the reality is most artists who are good don't have the gimmick to sell. So when you look at a lot of artists who are actually talented, great songwriters, great singers, a lot of times they don't have the gimmick that some of these other artists have that will sell, like they can sell themselves on the foolery in the image of whatever they present in and then they're trash as artists, right? So for those people that are actually good, a lot of times it takes even more sacrifice because you're not trying to sell them on fluff. Like they actually have to like they have to work, they have to put in actual work hours to be able to afford to do what it is that they're doing. Yeah, yeah, and so yes, they need to be recouped, they need they need to be, and then and then they because a lot of like your consumers, they don't understand how the sales of like the music industry at large has changed. So like they don't understand how artists are in a worse place now than they were technically back in the day. True. Where you may go to a concert, and if you if we were able to sell those hard copies, there was more money coming to us as artists, true, versus now we're like, all right, y'all could go buying the CDs, we print a few CDs, go buy the CDs, and we're actually hoping that you buy the CDs, right? But we know that you're probably not because you're gonna go stream it on Spotify and iTunes, and we might see like 0.000, whatever. We're gonna get a couple pennies somewhere down the road from the stream. So most people don't understand how that business affects us as artists, right? So there has to be recruitment. Do we take the power now?

SPEAKER_06 14:50

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_07 14:52

Let's bring all of that now into the let's call it the four walls of the church. Let's bring all of that into the into the church. Okay, into into our gathering.

SPEAKER_05 15:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 15:07

Um, and now that now that we've explained as far as that is concerned, now we're gathering for let's just say Sunday morning worship, whatever you we're gathering together. There as far as the ministry is concerned, okay, the same sacrifices that went into that concert you went to went into that ministry, right? So the likes, the LED wall. Now, whether all of this is necessary, where that's that's what viewers' discretion does.

SPEAKER_05 15:43

That's what Kim Walker is saying. She's saying that the industry seeped in to the church and told the church, okay, get these lights.

SPEAKER_07 15:57

If that's the result you want opram over there, you should bring that over here. But here's the thing. Here's the thing.

SPEAKER_05 16:04

Because I was watching another podcast with Kim Walker, and she was saying that the the the people behind the uh behind the executives in the industry, they are they are these are secular um companies that are over the worship section, right, of the of the industry. And so these executives are not believers and they don't understand the ministry.

SPEAKER_07 16:33

They're businessmen. Correct. They're business people, yes.

SPEAKER_05 16:37

Correct. Now she was talking about the dangers of that, and I think that's when she starts going into that this now. This industry is now seeping into the church, telling the church, okay, you need the lights, you need the LAD, you need to sound like this, you need to be fantastical, all the things.

SPEAKER_07 16:57

On the on our on the previous season, we had a conversation, and I think uh which one it was about entertainment. Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but that whole conversation, we started talking about like the equipment and certain things about it. Um and I remember talking about um the issue I have with some of the the things that we do in the kingdom is we often uh fall into a monkey see monkey do mentality. Which is what we which is what Kim's talking about, where it's like we've gone, we went and saw somebody else doing something, and now we feel like we gotta implement that because of influence and persuasion, and you know, we now feel like we gotta implement that to be able to have whatever the outcome you think is gonna come from that. So that's why we have a lot of churches where like you're spending them LED walls, ain't cheap, y'all.

SPEAKER_05 18:02

No, they not.

SPEAKER_07 18:03

They not cheap, and they're so unnecessary, especially when you're not using them properly. And a lot of us saying using them properly. Like it's just a big wall of LED lights behind you for no reason. And um, and and I I personally have a problem with that because I really feel like on a on on a on a I guess on a smaller level, which really should be a greater level, we're putting things in place of people, right? Um, you're buying equipment, you're buying lights, you're buying you don't none, you don't understand the why, right? And of course, the bigger your space, you may need some of those visual aids. Okay if you got a small sanctuary, you don't necessarily need a LED wall.

SPEAKER_05 18:58

Right, right.

SPEAKER_07 19:00

Like you don't need TV monitors hanging and all these different like big screens and stuff hanging when when you're in a 10 by 10. You know what I'm saying? You don't need all of that, you know? Yeah, it's like how hard is it for somebody to really see?

SPEAKER_05 19:16

Right.

SPEAKER_07 19:17

You're right there, right now, when you're in a bigger space, yeah, there's certain things you're gonna actually need enhancements and things to actually accommodate the people way in the back or people, you know. True. This is why, this is the why to some of those pieces of equipment and certain things that you're allowing that that we're pulling in from what we would call industry standards. Um, this is the why. Because even over there, there's a why.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Right.

SPEAKER_07 19:46

And a lot of times in the church, we don't understand the why.

SPEAKER_05 19:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 19:51

So we we just see it and we say, oh, that's excellence. We need to bring that into our into our sanctuary because that's excellence. Well, why no? Excellence came with a why. Right. If you don't understand the why, you're not being excellence, right? Are you not being excellent, right? You know what I'm saying? If you don't understand the why, you're not being excellent at all, right? What you're being is a copycat. Yes, and you're actually being and you're being bootlegged because you don't now you got equipment that you don't know how to use, right? So it's not being used properly, and so if it's not being used properly, then that's not excellent. Right? So we do the same thing with LED walls, with lights like if you're gonna have all of the lighting, usually lighting is because of filming. If you're not streaming, if you're not filming, basic lights is a-okay. Right? We it and again, it's like I'm I I know people are gonna be hearing me talk, and I'm I'm kind of talking straight at it, but I want you to understand like this is this is industry tactic, right? Like this is this is stuff that are these are things that are done because of a why. And why did you need the extra lights? Because you're filming and the cameras can't pick up the subject properly because the lighting isn't sufficient, so you enhance with lighting, right? The bigger the stage, the more lighting you need.

SPEAKER_05 21:32

Gotcha. Gotcha. No, it makes perfect sense. So, what you're saying is the equipment is not the villain. No, no, no, no, no. It's it's do you have a reason for why you're wanting to use these these equipment, these certain equipment?

SPEAKER_07 21:53

Do you understand why?

SPEAKER_05 21:55

Do you understand why? And If you're using the equipment is what you're producing most people can't even tell the difference.

SPEAKER_07 22:09

Like, I'm talking about the youth, like, okay, I'm a pastor. Somebody convinced me to buy$20,000 a piece of equipment. Nine times out of ten, most pastors, they're gonna buy this equipment. They're gonna trust whoever put it in. They're gonna have somebody install it. They're gonna put it up the first week or maybe two, they're gonna be like, yeah, it's such a difference. It's not that big of a difference because they didn't, they just got you in the game, and then you let that person that installed it, they're no, they're they're gone now. Now you're back with your willing workers, so you're not positioning and putting them in position to learn and like from a professional or from you know someone who knows. Now they're back there and they're just trying to make it through this$20,000 piece of equipment that the pro barely knows how to use, but now you got the willing worker trying to figure it out. And by week four, you're right back where you started because you didn't approach it with the right intention, with the understanding the why. I think this same, like we're talking about equipment, but I think the same principle applies to because again, I'm just talking about industry creeping into the church. Yeah, because the reality is industry creeps into the church way before we're talking about the worship music. Okay, okay. Industry industry creeps into the church from the moment we start breaking ground, from the from the moment we start actually uh drawing out the the blueprints. Okay, because because we see again, there's nothing wrong with inspiration, but we see what somebody else did down the street, and we don't understand their why, but we want it to be like that.

SPEAKER_06 24:06

Meanwhile, Jesus ain't need none of that. Hello? Jesus ain't need none of that. Hello? None of it.

SPEAKER_05 24:21

It's it's so the mic, I okay. No. I'm trying not to be like basic with this because some people will say, well, if Jesus didn't need none of that, why do we feel like we need that? But as we've just said, this equipment is not evil in and of itself.

SPEAKER_07 24:43

The qu the quick the equipment is not evil.

SPEAKER_05 24:46

We need to have a reason for why we're doing what we're doing, which ultimately should be for the spreading of the gospel for pushing the kingdom of God forward. What do we need in order to reach as many people as possible as clearly and and as um as clearly as possible? So here's my here's here's my next question then. Do you agree with what uh Kim Walker was saying about this type of thing producing spectators? Yes, rather than participants. And if that is the case, why are we doing this? Because to me, maybe in my very linear uh basic brain, I'm like, well then that clearly should be it's clearly wrong. So what are we doing wrong? Why is this causing more spectators than participants? And let me just say this there is nothing weirder than standing up on a platform and looking, you out up here leading this worship, okay? You are beholding the very uh beard of the Lord Jesus Christ, okay, beholding his face, and you over here thinking that you are just frolicking in the glory, and you look out over the over the vast sea of faces, and they are just standing there looking at the bro, it ain't even connect, bro. It ain't even connect. You're just like, are we safe? Are we in the same place here? Because, like, how is it that you can we can both be in the same place? I'm feeling what I'm feeling, and you're just looking at me. You're not participating, no hand raised, no sway action, no clapping of the hands, no nothing. And it's like, is this just a show for y'all? Are we just putting up a show for you?

SPEAKER_07 27:12

Well, for some, yes. And for some from for some others, I realized um uh not too long ago. Because I I come from I come from uh the a background of this is it's it's a participant, right? You know, you know, it's this is this is not a spectator story. Like where we are, you know, we're all lifting hands. We're all doing something. Correct. We're singing together, we're doing something. Correct. But I realize, number one, um in a day and age where non-denominational churches have flourished, I realize that non-denominational churches are comprised of a plethora of different upbringings.

SPEAKER_05 28:13

True, true.

SPEAKER_07 28:15

Um, and so what happens is you end up with wherever the strongest, let's say, let's just say you had a non-denominal non-denominational church where the membership that came in was forty-five percent Pentecostal uh uh very charis charismatic believers who who that was their upbringing. Um and let's just say um the the rest of that was let's just say they came from uh whether it be uh let's just say they came from a a more uh conservative, we're conservative, traditional we ain't we don't jump up and down, we don't we barely we don't lift our hands, right? We sit. We right now the the reality is the the higher percentage is going to influence the lower percentage.

SPEAKER_05 29:32

Is that true, bro?

SPEAKER_07 29:34

Um I I've seen it. It and it me and I and I put the percentages kind of close because typically it's you it's usually a more of a spread. Right, right. It's more of a spread. But um I've seen it where like the majority of the church is used to uh upbringing where they don't they they might sing along if they know the song, but they're they don't even they don't even really stand for real, right? You might have a few that might stand, but they ain't even really standing. Right. You know, it's more it's more um, you know, we're we're we're appreciative of you guys being up there singing and bringing in worship for us. You know, true. Um and my point is that is what I keep saying, upbringing. Um the res the response that we get from people when we're on the platform and we're looking and we see the response is upbringing. It's teaching, right? If you grow up like my my six-year-old, she sees and she has from the day she was born, she sees her parents in the house. When we play worship music, we sing, we dance, we lift the hands. She is that's her upbringing. She understands what that looks like. So when she goes to church, when she goes to the sanctuary, it's not foreign to her to do that. Right, right. Where in another in other households, that's not a dominant presence. And so if you're sitting in in a in a in a church where that is not the you know, you don't have a bunch of people who have the nature of like, oh yeah, we sing, we dance, we do that in my in my in my home, much less in the church I went to, um, then you're not gonna get that response. And I realized that recently because that's upbringing and it's also teaching. Because now, as the pastor, if you have that congregation, yes, it's upbringing, and then now you have to restate what that is supposed to look like.

SPEAKER_05 31:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_07 31:55

Exactly. And and so then it sounds like that I play at had a change like that not too long ago.

SPEAKER_05 32:02

Go ahead, keep going.

SPEAKER_07 32:02

Where it was very, it was heavy spectator.

SPEAKER_05 32:08

And um But did you guys have the things? Did you have all the things?

SPEAKER_07 32:13

The things came. Okay. The things came later. Um, the things came later, the light became, you know, we ain't you know, we got some screens and different things, and you know, updated the sound, you know.

SPEAKER_05 32:28

There's you know, certain things, certain things needed to be done though, right? Right.

SPEAKER_07 32:31

So then it sounds like it's less about the things that causes the spectatorship, it's more so about upbringing, maybe even preference, preference, teaching, teaching because that was a thing we ended up having a conversation about even with with uh the pastor, we end up having conversations about it. Like, like, hey, like we would have these big concerts and things, and we would then and then it would frustrate everybody on the platform. Yeah, yeah, we got y'all got us up here singing 10 songs to us, and it feels like we're singing it to ourselves. So, what changed it?

SPEAKER_05 33:11

What changed it from being spectatorship to participants?

SPEAKER_07 33:14

Pastor changed, Pastor changed his perspective changed. Because even for him, you know, it everybody has their own way, like everybody, like I it's unrealistic to expect everybody to have the same expression, true. So, number one, if if I'm if I'm looking at you and because I'm a because I holler and you're not hollering, I feel some type of way, that's that's not realistic.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Right.

SPEAKER_07 33:42

But but to there should be some type of of uh uh connection, whether so for like for our pastor, like to him, he says, Well, you know, like I know I a lot of us, we don't come from that. We don't come from that all you know, all the charismatic stuff or whatever. He says, So when I when you guys are singing, I sit and I and I just listen, I listen to the words, and I'm and kind of sense there, you know, every now and then he puts his hands up, and but he said he's soaking in the stuff. I said, That's great. But for the people behind you, right, they don't they don't understand that. And so that's good, but you gotta that to me, you still have to kind of like let your people know even where you are and how that response is for you, and then and then open your people up to understanding, like and again, like we said this, we talked about this recently, where to me it's like we number one, we we keep putting worship and music together like they're one in the same, and what music is an expression it's uh that we use God to worship, yeah. So our worship is is our obedience, it's our taking control of our moment, our body, our voice, whatever we have, the things that God has given us, and we're taking it and we're saying we're giving it to you right now. We're we're we're offering this up to you. So whether you want to or not, um uh whether you want to offer up your Isaac or not, I'm going to go up to this mountain and I'm gonna lay my Isaac in front of me.

SPEAKER_05 35:28

And so um can I can I cut it here right here? Go because you brought up something that I have thought about, particularly in the last two years. Well, mostly in the last year, because I remember the the ministry that I was a part of, um, I remember having a conversation with leadership, and they were saying things like we have a we have a way of doing worship here in this house. There is a there is a way. Um and and I was like, what what is that way? And they they were saying things like um, well, some some places kneel in worship and we don't do that. Some places use banners and flags, and we don't do that. Some places, um oh, what was the other thing? I don't remember I don't remember what the other thing was, but all of these different things I found it very interesting that instead of teaching the people what these different expressions are, because all of the expression all of these expressions are found in in the Bible. It'd be it'd be one thing if these expressions were outlandish and not not found in scripture, but like No, they're there. They're there the bending of the knee, the bowing. If we look in scripture, every person that had an encounter with God landed on their face. Moses, Daniel, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All of them, all of their their their responses was to bow the knee, right? Um the the shouting, the scripture talks about shouting unto God with a voice of triumph, right? These expressions are found in scripture, and what I find, what I find is instead of teaching your congregation what these what these because the thing was they're saying we don't do things like that because it makes people uncomfortable because they don't understand the people that come into they don't understand these expressions. That's what makes them uncomfortable. So instead of doing a doing your job and teaching the whole council and why why certain people do these things, you kind of just say, no, we're not gonna do it. And so what you're doing inherently, this is just my opinion, but inherently what you're doing is you're telling you're teaching them, you're teaching your people that this expression is wrong.

SPEAKER_07 38:23

Mm-hmm. And you're peep you're people pleasing.

SPEAKER_05 38:26

You're people pleasing.

SPEAKER_07 38:28

As well.

SPEAKER_05 38:28

And and and and the other thing that I wanted to mention was because I'm where I came from was New York City. Now, I it probably is because of New York being just New York, but I remember the church that I was brought that I was a part of. Um uh it was a non-denominational church. It was comprised of 103 nationalities, right? Now, the the pastor uh was a was a white man. Um he's since passed, um, but he was a white man, and he determined that in that house um there was gonna be gospel music. We was gonna be clapping our hands, stomping our feet, dancing, that kind of thing. He obviously he comes from a Pentecostal background. But what I'm saying is I we saw people of all nationalities coming into the house of God, and maybe that wasn't their upbringing, right? Maybe it wasn't their upbringing, but they looked around and saw all these people clapping their hands and moving and dancing and moving their feet, and even if it wasn't their upbringing, they were just like, Well, I guess this is what we're doing. And they in and they they came into something, and I think yeah, we had the lights and and and screens and stuff, but I think it's more so about teaching than anything else that determines whether your congregation is going to be participants or spectators. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely because I remember someone saying that the pastor is the first worship leader, absolutely, and I was like, yo, I've never heard that before. But it's so true because we're always looking to see what the past what's the pastor, what's the pastor doing?

SPEAKER_07 40:26

Listen, my mom is a pastor. My mom is my mom will play the keyboard, she will leave the keyboard, take her mic, she will get in front of she will dance across the front of the podium. Right. And right and let let she will. And that's that's what they mean. It's like like my hands are gonna do it, my feet are gonna do it, my my lungs are gonna do it. Like in this moment, I'm commanding my whole being to worship you, to praise you. And I'm gonna say this. I ain't gonna, we're not gonna do a little. This is another topic. Okay, a lot of people try to separate it, but culture.

SPEAKER_05 41:17

Oh, brother. I was I was sitting here feeling like, ooh. Are we gonna say culture plays a huge role?

SPEAKER_07 41:28

A huge now role. Now, I know we have those who are like, y'all keep talking about culture. What did you need to be talking about kingdom? Kingdom and culture hand in hand. And it's you know, when you help me, Jesus. Please help me. When you look in an all-white or an all-black church, I'm so glad and you start talking about kingdom in either one of those, and you can't manage to show kingdom in the in the in the confines of your four four wands. Something's wrong. Something's wrong with the picture that you're presenting here. Correct. Right? Correct. Kingdom don't look black, and kingdom don't look white, kingdom don't look Hispanic, kingdom don't look one way, it don't look Asian. It is all encompassing. Kingdom, right? Um, God ain't the God of America alone. Say it again for the people in the back. God ain't the god of Jamaica alone, alone, not the god of Haiti alone. Yes, all right. All of that, kingdom of God encompasses all of that. Yes, and one of the things that we have issue with, and again, why they might say, Well, we don't do that here, or we might not do that over there, is because the reality is we have prejudice against the way that certain other cultures may represent a thing. But the reality is we have to stop being that, stop being that way, and we have to start taking a look at culture and background and how people, other people were brought up in their cultures and what they have done. And some people culture was very expressive in dance, some people's weren't. And it's okay because that all of those things make up the kingdom.

SPEAKER_05 43:24

But do a better job as the leadership is leadership, doing do a better job of teaching your congregations. Not everybody does has the same expression, but that doesn't mean that expression is wrong. Do you understand? Because when you when you when you try to have when you try to and no pun intended, but whitewash a sound or an expression, what you're what you're saying is those other people's expression is low-key. Has a negative connotation. To it, that it's that it's that it's low key wrong. Instead of teaching your congregation, yeah, there are people of all nationalities, and that's that's the beauty of heaven. That's the beauty of the kingdom. It comprises some people bend their knee, some people wave their flags, some people shout, some people cry, some people dance. All of these things are found in scripture. Number one, it's not wrong. And all should be welcome. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah. Now, obviously, if you're a congregation of only a certain nationality group, then don't try and force something that that doesn't even exist to begin with in your congregation.

SPEAKER_07 44:45

I see that happen too all the time. Yeah. I see that happen all the time too. But uh yeah, there there's there's a I know there's a lot of layers, and I we always end up trying to un we end up kind of peeling layers of this onion. Um uh, but I I don't want to get I don't want us to get lost in our task.

SPEAKER_05 45:07

So let me ask you this question. I don't know if this is a hard left, a hard right, I don't know, but I don't know how to answer this question. I don't know how I feel about this. With regards to music industry she seeping into worship ministry, should we have awards? Should we have awards? I like it. I like it because I was listening to um Stephanie Gretzinger. You know who that is? Okay. Um she was she talks about this a lot, and she don't like it at all.

SPEAKER_07 45:50

That apparently neither does Sprink um uh for Sprink.

SPEAKER_05 45:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 45:56

Yeah, apparently he had a change of heart recently, too.

SPEAKER_05 45:58

Oh, really? No, I haven't really been keeping up. I guess I should go back and and look at all the controversy, but I have not kept up with anything.

SPEAKER_03 46:06

It's okay.

SPEAKER_05 46:07

Anyway, all I know is he did some video when he was on his back and he because he and amen. Uh anyway, so should we have awards for worship leaders and artists?

SPEAKER_07 46:27

Should we be is it is it not okay to be honored?

SPEAKER_05 46:32

Brother, in worship? Like that's it's it seems like an honorable thing. So let's fix it.

SPEAKER_07 46:39

Let's fix it. Let's fix it.

SPEAKER_05 46:41

I'm not talking about music like regul like gospel industry or whatever. I'm not talking about that, but I'm talking about like you have an award for the for the best worship song.

SPEAKER_07 46:55

Listen, what what we're getting awards for is good work. What we get rewards for is how we live.

SPEAKER_05 47:10

Oh wow. Whoa. Say that again. Go slow. We get awards.

SPEAKER_07 47:16

What we get awards for good work.

SPEAKER_05 47:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 47:21

Right? I'm getting a and if I get an award for best worship album, I put a lot of work into a lot of work, a lot of money, a lot of whatever it is to create a product. And I'm getting recognized for my hard work. That's fine, my opinion. Because at the end of the day, I'm getting a reward, I'm getting an award from you all. You're recognizing me for the labor that I put in, but I'm getting a reward from my father in heaven for how I live out what I gave you. Yikes. I so I don't think there's anything wrong with getting awards. I think that it's okay to get a pat on the back for a good job, a job well done. Because that is just our peers. Awards are given by peers.

SPEAKER_05 48:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 48:24

Right? So if you if you do something wonderful and I say, Ivory, man, I want to just I'm clapping it up for you. I'm gonna give you this trophy because I really feel like you did a great job and you put in a lot of work, and I want to recognize you for the hard work that you did.

SPEAKER_05 48:40

Okay, but here's the issue. Now, here's the issue. We are being pitted against each other. That's our fault.

SPEAKER_07 48:51

Because we ain't thinking about we ain't thinking in the right hand space. That's our fault.

SPEAKER_05 48:57

I heard one time someone told me a story about a very popular worship ministry who writes songs. I'm trying to be very careful. I'm trying to be very careful. They write songs. I'm trying to protect my pearls, brother. Um they they write, they they write a lot of our worship songs, and this other person, they were up for an award, and this other very popular artist won instead of them. And they were so upset that they lost, they felt like they should not have lost, and so they wrote me. They wrote a kind of like uh, and I'm putting this in air quotes revenge album to make sure that they win the next time. I think this is what Stephanie Gretziger has an issue with because that's crazy to me. That's crazy to me because that's the part that I think is gross is that we are writing songs. We is crazy, people are writing songs, certain people are writing songs to be on top of and have some kind of monopoly of worship, which brother, it's gross.

SPEAKER_07 50:58

Listen to me, and this is the reason I said what I said in the beginning. Don't worry, don't I'm gonna I'm gonna make music because I don't want to, I don't want to be the one who got caught up in worrying about doing things for the awards here on earth. Right? If yes, if I did a good job, I thank you. I thank you for, but I don't want that to be my focus, especially when we're talking about worship, the the the worship space, right? If I'm going to do something that is sacred in that space, I want my reward to be from my father in heaven. Because that's a that is a place where a lot of us are getting confused.

SPEAKER_05 51:48

And so now we stop. That's the question. Should we should we stop pull out of this thing?

SPEAKER_07 51:56

I think that uh again, I think it's it's the personal issue. I think if you find yourself, and this is why we're having this conversation, because hopefully this hits somebody where it needs to be hit them. If you find yourself seeking the reward here on earth for something that you're supposed to be living out for a reward in heaven, then you need to recalibrate and and change paths and figure out like, oh, hold on, wait a minute, what am I doing here? And this is why to the point that uh Ellie brought up, where we're losing a lot of worshipers and gaining a lot of performers. I don't think there's a problem with being a performer. And again, I have my whole thought about that performer versus you know, I I I understand there's a line there, but there's nothing wrong with being an artist.

SPEAKER_05 53:02

No, of course not.

SPEAKER_07 53:03

Period. Right, period, right? Put a period there, be an artist, then be an artist who's a believer, and then do worship music, right? And and then learn how to separate that which you have done as an artist from that which you do solely as worship, yeah. Right? And and again, it's like when I if I if you call me to lead worship and I get on the platform and I'm leaving worship, I don't, I shouldn't be thinking about whether or not I'm gonna get an award for this performance I'm doing in this moment, right? I should be spirit and truth worshiping, right? Right, right. So again, this to me, this is a heart posture issue. This is like a like, hold on, where where are you? Where are you? Like, what are you what are you thinking about? Where is your mind right now? What is what is your position right now? Like, are do you are you willfully stepping onto the platform for self? Or are you stepping onto the platform to be an example of what it is to worship in spirit and in truth with your whole being? Like, if if you if you can't if you can't uh uh uh uh uh like give that matter some attention before you step forth, then I think you need to take a break. I think you should step back. And again, I don't think there's an issue with being an artist. I think you should be like I like I noticed there's certain artists like uh I I think Cla Cray was one of them, but who like a lot of a lot of especially in the the Christian hip hop or whatever you want to call it now world where there's like yeah, I'm not I'm not a I'm not a gospel rapper, I'm not a Christian rapper, I'm a rapper who's a Christian.

SPEAKER_05 55:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 55:05

Right. I understand it. I understand it because what happens is no matter what, you're gonna get put in a box, right? No matter what. You're gonna get put in a box because that's the way the industry is set up, right?

SPEAKER_05 55:22

Right.

SPEAKER_07 55:22

The industry is set up to put you, compartmentalize these product, these products, right? So so you're not gonna put rice with the fruits, right? Produce and rice go in two separate areas, right? Right. So that's the way the industry is set up so that they can compartmentalize, so that they know, okay, when this product sells, it belongs with this group of things. Um so that's why I I understand when people say, hey, you know, I'm I'm a rapper who's a Christian, but no matter what, no matter what you want to call it, once you release this product, the people, the industry is gonna put you where they want to put you.

SPEAKER_05 56:08

Right, right.

SPEAKER_07 56:09

Um, so uh it's all about here. It's like, why are you doing it? Do it at the end of the day, do what you want to do. Be an artist, don't be an artist, just be a worship leader. The reality is we have more worship leaders wanting to be artists again for monkey c monkey do. Like, you don't even you you don't even know what it means to be an artist, a recording artist. You don't have any desire to work the record. Like, you know, when you when you step into the world of being an artist, like you have to work the record, you have to go promote the album, you have to do the things that is required of an artist, and so it's okay to want to be an artist, but if you're gonna do that, then be so. But if you don't have the desire to work the industry as a believer, then just be a worship leader. Just do it because you love to worship, separate the two.

SPEAKER_05 57:26

So separate the two. So you would just say because there are some people who believe that we should just not have these things, that it doesn't belong in the space of worship, because worship is supposed to be unto God, not unto us.

SPEAKER_07 57:53

So we have an issue with comp we have an issue with competition.

SPEAKER_05 57:56

Right. So so just 86 the whole thing then. Yeah, like bring it some people will say bring it back to the essence of where where and what it's supposed to be. Get rid of all of this and just let's, as worship leaders, write music for the kingdom, write music for the church, write music as unto the Lord, as opposed to because, like you said, we have a lot of worship leaders wanting to get into the industry. And why do we feel like we need to get into the industry? Is it because it's because is it about you? Is it because we see other people in the industry and you want your name to be heard, and you want to be paid? I'm just asking the questions.

SPEAKER_07 58:45

I'm just uh because I know I know some people who genuinely the their mindset is um I wanna I want to record an album. I'm a worship leader, I want to record an album because I have these songs that the Holy Spirit has given me that need to reach the world. Problem with that is your faith without work is going to be dead because you want us to put you want to spend money to record this project, and then you think it's just going to mysteriously reach the world. You have to do the artist thing and work the record, right? So again, uh and I know these people, I I'm thinking about a couple people particularly that I've that have had conversations with me that I know like genuinely, it wasn't about them getting money or making a name for themselves or whatever. Sincerely, they just their thought was I have these songs that God gave me, and I then they and I really feel like they need to reach the nation, right? I love it, but in order for it to reach the nation, you have to do the work, yeah. And and and guess, guess what? How does it reach the nation? You gotta do the work. What what is what is how do you hear your music across the nation? Radio. Radio don't just happen. This is all this is this is where we're talking industry. The reason that the industry they want to say the industry crept into the church is the is it's because it's really because the church more so crept into the industry, see, because we wanted to make these songs go global. So we know that we gotta go through radio, we know we gotta get the if we did a video, we know we gotta get it to the proper channels to get to the we know that being a Grammy Award-winning gospel artist allows us to reach more people, right? Right, because just being at your home church and saying, Okay, I want to, it's just like you know, okay, cool. You have a small church, you want your service stream because you want to reach the nation. Put it, you put you put you start streaming on YouTube or Facebook, you only got six followers. You got to do the this is industry things, right? Because if you're trying to reach more people, you have to do some type of work to do so, right? So, this is why you have all this like these mega churches who are broadcasting and have all these different things. It's all of that, all of it, music or not, is industry, and that's be and that's why it's the business part. It's like in order for you to reach more people, in order for the analytics to go skyrocketing, like you got to do the work to reach, you gotta go through the channels to reach the people. Our pro now, our prop. I I always now here's my question: What's wrong with competition, brother?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:41

Okay, this is a five-hour pod because we're not let me fix it, let me fix it.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:48

We're not we're not competing in our worship to the Lord. Let's fix that. Okay, but what's wrong with healthy competition in in a award space?

SPEAKER_05 1:03:02

In in the realm of worship?

SPEAKER_07 1:03:06

In the in the realm of in the realm of hard work, in the in the realm of productivity.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:12

Yes, I yes, however, it's in the realm of worship. It's not that's the problem. It feels crazy to me.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:24

But that's because again, that's how that's how we've conceptualized and kind of how we put things in the in the wrong perspective, right? Because again, that that whole thing doesn't happen unless you're trying to reach more people. If you don't want to reach nobody, you don't get awards. Let's start there. If if um Stephanie, if Forrest, if whoever, if Bethel, if if Hillsong, if they're not trying to reach more people, they don't get awards. Because they that means they're not they're not even going through the process of dealing with none of that. Right?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:05

You think that none of you you think correct me if I'm wrong, do you think that the industry needs to be redeemed? Or do you think it just it is what it is, and we have to steward ourselves?

SPEAKER_07 1:04:22

We have to steward ourselves because the industry, business has been business, we have to steward ourselves. Business has always been business, corrupt or good. We we have to steward ourselves so that we can determine which uh portion of the business we want to be involved in. Because it's at the end of the day, it's a choice, it's our choice. That's why I said if if if nope, if if all of those people I mentioned don't do the work, don't go through the process, right, don't aren't signed. I anybody, anybody with a Grammy nomination or any type of Grammy award or whatever, has to know somebody who is affiliated with whether they're a voting member, whether they are whatever, like some type of member that like somebody has to put their name in the hat. And it could in most a lot of times it's the person who made the record who put their name in the hat to try to get in the so it and again, you do that so you can reach, you have a better reach.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:37

Okay, but right, but but you're asking what's wrong with with healthy competition. Well, then it automatically puts your mind space in another place because now you're doing things and writing things in order to win a competition. When it is you're not.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:04

If you are, again, if you are doing things just to win a competition, you started off wrong. But you've done the work.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:16

Right.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:17

You made you made the record. You making the record, again, we because we were talking about somebody else earlier who said they had to basically make a revenge record. If you started off that project with that mentality, you started off wrong. Your intent was wrong. But if I'm making a worship album right now, and my intent is purely I'm making a worship album as an offering to the Lord. And that is my intent in making that. Once I make that product and I say, okay, I'm gonna release this into the world, but in order for me to make it go where it needs to go, I'm going to submit it to Grammy. I'm going to submit it to whatever. I'm gonna I'm gonna do the promotions for radio play and all the industry things. I'm trying to I'm I'm using limp's terms because a lot of things in in the industry are loose these days.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:23

Right.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:24

They don't call it payola no more, they call it radio promotion, but whatever, same thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:30

But if I'm going to try to make this music reach the masses for the impact of not just for sales, but for the impact, then I'm going to have to spend the money on radio promotion. I'm gonna have to spend the money to do X, Y, and Z. So that's what I'm saying. Once you go, once you start doing that, and even with at the end of the day, it's like when you're making the product, you're trying to make the best product, I would hope. Right. And in on and again, intention in honor to God. I'm trying to give my best in making this product. Right. Post the product's completion. I'm going through the channels, I'm doing all the things because I now I want it to reach the people. I'm going through the channels. The competition is really a voter's choice. I'm now, and again, the competition is more so all right, these people have heard it, it got into these people's hands, and they are honoring us in saying, like, hey, you really did a great job on making this, and we want to recognize you for it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:43

Why do we here's the thing we can okay, we can use the industry to help us push our songs forward and get it to the masses and to the world and all the things. Why do we need a competition? Why can't we just let's use the industry and 86 the awards? Because I think the award, I think, okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:08

Well, guess what? You don't you technically don't have to accept the award because the award is given, don't mean you have to go there and get it. Yeah, okay. Well, look, that's what I'm saying. So for me, because again, we make it more of uh a we make it more of a competition in a negative way by feeling a certain way because oh, I didn't win I should have won that award. No, because that shouldn't have been your intention in the worship space in the first place. Okay, well, this is all gonna always go back to intention.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:49

We're forgetting another problem.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:52

What's the problem?

SPEAKER_05 1:09:54

The enemy who is going to use all of that and it the and the enemy doesn't want the presence of God going up. He does not want the purity of worship to exist, right? He does not want the purity of worship to go up to the Lord. So if he can do everything that he can to corrupt it, and we all know we're not supposed to be writing these songs for with we need to have the the right intentions and all the things. We know this, we know this, but I feel like once you get into the space of competition, I feel like the enemy you it's like it's like seeps in like freaking yeast.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:46

I mean it is, it it it it it will, but again, I think it's a very dangerous territory. But uh, I think again, it's like if you take the focus off of it just being worship music and put it in in its context, even from again, if we're just talking about church, like it's the same thing that we deal with from the pastor or a church ministry side of thing, like there's competition between pastors, true. There's competition between like ministries, like like that's unhealthy. You know, like so it's just again, I think it a lot of it has to do with a personal uh reflection, like why why are you doing why is a like very important question in this whole entire conversation. Why is it and so it's the why are you doing it? Why are you doing it from the beginning of in the first place? Um, are you only doing this because again, we end up in comp a lot of the reasons we end up in competition is because we had an ill ill-informed why. So for instance, um I know of a I know of two churches. I know of a church that um because I was there and I and the conversation, the conversation was, man, look, watch this. Show me an Instagram post. Then show me an Instagram post from this other church. It's like everything we do, they do it. It's like they're in competition with us. It's like, so watch them. Then you go, they show us another thing, and it's like, yo, the other church, they literally like it's like they're cop, it's like they're literally like trying to see who does it best, yeah. And they're copying each other and like one-uping each other the whole time, yeah. And and so again, it's like okay, so I don't know who started it, but one of you have the power to end it, because you can the the good uh so what we're saying, a good way to end it is not to be involved. So if you don't want to win, if you don't want the Grammy again, you ain't got to go. If you don't want the dove, you ain't gotta go. You can pull you can you can pull yourself from it. Like most of the people who are let's just say most of the people who are um like nominated or stuff for that, like they're they're they're um they're willful players, right? Um and and even if they're not there's like if they're signed to a label or something like that, they're most most labels are business people. Whether it's a Christian label or not, it's it's some businessman who probably don't care nothing about the Holy Spirit or nothing. But they're gonna put if they're on their label, they're gonna make sure that they put your record in there for Grammy nomination they want you to get be a part of that whole thing because at the end of the day, it puts you in front of more people, which puts for them puts more eyes on you, puts more dollars in in their situation, in their company. Um now for you as and yours, for you as the artist who did this from a pure heart and only was really doing it for worship, it puts your music before the nation, which was your intent in the first place.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:31

Well, thank you for joining us today on this episode. Oh my gosh. Okay, we've been talking for like probably I don't know. I don't know how we got here. It was my fault. Um, but until but before my my camera shuts all the way off. Um this was such a good conversation. And there's so man it's it's so hard to have these conversations when you only have like a certain amount of time. So but this was really good. We might, I might split this in two. We'll see. Yeah, we'll see what happens. Um, Dwayne, my brother, as always, thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:18

It's always a pleasure.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:19

You will always have a spot on this platform.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:23

Yeah, yeah, you always will.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:27

Um, well, I hope y'all, I hope this conversation challenged the mess out of you. I hope you learned something. I hope that yeah, I hope you were challenged because this was a lot. This was a lot, but it was good. It was really good. Um, yeah. All right, I ain't got nothing more to say. We're not gonna prolong this this ending because my camera's legit about to shut off. Um, if you want to follow me, y'all can follow me on Instagram, off Mike with Ivory, Instagram and TikTok. If you want to meet follow me personally, it is um Ivory McDonald Official. And you can get this podcast and um future ones and past ones on my YouTube, Ivory McDonald. And yeah, that's all I got. Until next time, because you know we're gonna have him back, huh? We're gonna talk about some more stuff. Comment, but um, until next time, I love y'all. If you I hope you enjoyed this, please share this, uh, subscribe, like, comment, all the things. I want to know what y'all think. I want to know, you know, you can challenge us too. We're we're here for it. We got all day, yeah. Um, so anyway, I love y'all until next time. Thank you, Dwayne. Doce.