How to sell without selling your soul, with Abi Pendergst

So, you've sat through CopySchool. Binged Breakthrough Advertising (after taking out a mortgage to afford a copy). Watched a few too many webinars for someone who has an actual job. Listened to all the social media gurus.  And you have a whole quiver of sales tactics at the ready.

Urgency, scarcity, all the Cialdini tricks, agitation of pain points.

But, when you come to write for your clients (or your own business), it's starting to feel a bit icky.

Do you really need that countdown timer on your upsell page?

Should you really be diving into how awful your customer's life will be if they don't buy from you?

Have you become one of those bro marketers, lounging over your Lamborghini in your ray bans?

Sales is icky and manipulative, right?

Well, not always. And that's what I'm talking about with Abi Pendergast in this week's pod episode.

Abi is a conversion copywriter and funnel strategist for course creators. She uses her evergreen frameworks so that passionate and talented people reach those they can help. 

How can you use effective sales and marketing frameworks, without feeling like a used car salesperson?

Abi spills all, including:

• Why evergreen is the way forward for your launch
• What breaks her heart about course creators
• How bro marketers and their lambos have ruined conversion triggers for everyone
• The role of softer urgency in your launch (and the results she’s seen to back it up)
• What agitation REALLY is, and why it’s not making people feel bad.

If you're searching for ways to sell your stuff, without selling your soul, then this is the episode for you. 

Sit back, and enjoy Abi getting on her soap box. 

Head to Abi's website to find out about her evergreen webinar (it's brilliant!)
Find Abi on LinkedIn
Say hi on Instagram

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Transcript

So, you've sat through CopySchool. Binged Breakthrough Advertising (after taking out a mortgage to afford a copy). Watched a few too many webinars for someone who has an actual job. Listened to all the social media gurus.  And you have a whole quiver of sales tactics at the ready.
Urgency, scarcity, all the Cialdini tricks, agitation of pain points.
But, when you come to write for your clients (or your own business), it's starting to feel a bit icky.
Do you really need that countdown timer on your upsell page?
Should you really be diving into how awful your customer's life will be if they don't buy from you?
Have you become one of those bro marketers, lounging over your lambourghini in your raybans?
Sales is icky and manipulative, right?
Well, not always. And that's what I'm talking about with Abi Pendergast in this week's pod episode.
Abi is a conversion copywriter and funnel strategist for course creators. She uses her evergreen frameworks so that passionate and talented people reach those they can help. 
How can you use effective sales and marketing frameworks, without feeling like a used car salesperson?
Abi spills all, including:
Why evergreen is the way forward for your launch
What breaks her heart about course creators
How bro marketers and their lambos have ruined conversion triggers for everyone
The role of softer urgency in your launch (and the results she’s seen to back it up)
What agitation REALLY is, and why it’s not making people feel bad.
If you're searching for ways to sell your stuff, without selling your soul, then this is the episode for you. 
Sit back, and enjoy Abi getting on her soap box. 
Abby, thank you so much for agreeing to come and talk to me on the podcast. I'm really excited to have a conversation. 

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. 

For my listeners who maybe haven't come across you in which case they should go find you on LinkedIn specifically, because I love your content on LinkedIn. Can you tell them about who you are, what you do and how you ended up here? 

You're okay. So I'm Abby and I am a Conversion copywriter and funnel strategist for course creators. I mostly work with course creators who help people to make more money doing what they love. So blogging coaches people that I work with someone who teach you how to create a guitar business, guitar repair business, all kinds.

So I specialize in evergreen funnels. I have a process called day one evergreen, which I'm working very hard to make it the official evergreen funnel for course creators. The reason I got into evergreen is because I find live launches really stressful.  I work on them occasionally, but I just, I find the pressure is really high and there's so much riding on it.

And, if one little link doesn't work, that can be cost thousands of an income, tens of that hundreds of thousands.  So I thought, okay, I really want to focus on a way for course creators to.  hAve the peace of mind of that consistent predictable revenue coming in and look at ways that they can scale that by  collecting customer feedback inside the funnel and then using what the audience is telling them to actually improve conversions over time. 

That's so useful to be able to iterate and review what it is that you've done in on almost in like a live  thing that you can't do on a normal launch. 

Yeah, exactly. That's the thing with live launches is You get all this amazing customer data, like people telling you why they didn't buy, people telling you why they did buy, the questions they ask, and then you can't use it for another six months or a year, by which point the world has changed. I don't know if everyone's noticed, but the world seems to be changing really quickly at the moment.

Like I launched a copywriting course a year ago and now chat GPT is in the way. So I got a whole like new stuff to talk about. But when you do an FGreen, you can take that feedback from the month and then you can actually use it straight away to make your funnel stronger and make sure it's connecting with people and ultimately improve your conversions. 

What's been your favorite evergreen launch to work on so far?  Or is that like choosing your favorite child? 

I don't know if this is really bad for you to say this, but my own song. It's

I love it. That's not bad.

my own copy. I get to be, I get to use my own voice, which, I get to be a little bit sarcastic sometimes.  And it's. Yeah it's great actually reading what people are saying about my course and then using that.

And there's just something great about knowing that I'm testing things on my own funnel. So that when I bring that to clients, I can say to them with confidence that this isn't just stuff I pulled out of a hat or from someone else's course. It's real life data that I've tested, proven and can now bring that to them.

Yeah, no, that's brilliant.  Okay. And as on this podcast, we like to talk to people about what It is that they jump on their soapbox about, like, what is the thing that riles them up, that keeps them up at night, that they always find themselves standing in a kitchen at like nine o'clock at night at party, talking someone's ear off about, that kind of interesting thing.

So what is your soapbox? 

Okay, so I knew you were going to ask me this and I haven't, there are a lot of things that round me up, but what I would like to talk about it's maybe not the thing I chew people's hair off at parties purely because I'm not friends with course creators, but what what breaks my heart about our industry is I just see so many  wonderful creators that just. 

feel so uncomfortable selling themselves that they're missing out on not just the chance for them to get sales, which obviously that's great. And I want that for them, but it's also the people that they created their product to help and the people that genuinely  they need the course and it will solve their problems and it will help them experience that transformation they want.

And they're not. Getting the course because  they, there's just a disconnect with the communication of the value. And I get it because it's hard selling yourself anyway. It's hard just talking about yourself, but there are so many  I guess you could call them like bro marketers.

I don't know.

You can call them, I have in the past called them bromancers. Yeah.

So salesy, really hyper salesy stuff, you know what I'm talking about? When you get a countdown time and it's like, you have. 20 minutes to buy, or it's gone forever, and you won't have the chance to turbocharge this, turbocharge that, make your millions, get your Lamborghini and then, yeah, so the, you, these course creators, they'll see that and they'll be so turned off by it that they'll then avoid using urgency and these conversion triggers altogether. When actually there are ways to use conversion triggers that do feel  good, they feel authentic, they feel aligned with your values. 

And it is okay to use them, and I just wish that these creators would give themselves permission to do the things that will get them sales but to do it in a way that isn't, that high pressure urgency and isn't that kind of, that stuff that can make us feel a bit icky.

Yeah, definitely. So what kind of things do I'm assuming from that, that you get course creators or potential or actual clients coming to you and saying, like, I don't want to do this or I don't want to do that. What kind of things do they say to you?

I think countdown timers is a big one. I have a lot of conversations about that because when you go evergreen uh, when course creators go evergreen, they will often see their conversion rates tank and. I do think a big reason for that is just, there is no urgency. And I say, I think, I've seen the proof I've tried, I've listened to people say they hate urgency.

They're so toned off by countdown timers. And I've thought, okay, I, I believe in listening to what your audience is telling you. I'm going to implement that. I tested it and it didn't work and it didn't get conversions. But what I did find is. Actually, if you go for like a softer urgency that, that can improve convergence even more than high urgency.

So rather than giving them like 20 minutes to make it a huge decision, give them a week, give them two weeks. And it's not a case of when the car. When the countdown ends the cart closes, of course, is gone. Cause when it's evergreen, they can enroll anytime. It's not hard to just add them.

So you don't need to create that fake open cart, close cart.  What you can do is offer them like a limited time discount. And that's just your way of saying like, Hey you in, I, you watched my webinar or you've arrived here. So I know you're really serious about getting this. And I support that.

And I want to support you in any way I can. So I'm giving you this discount. It's just for a week, just like, and it, it's fun. It's like a flash sale. People love flash sales, like it's fun. And when it, when that ends, it's not that they can never get the course again, or they have to wait a year or it's over, now they have to endure all these problems because they didn't take the leap.

It's just, they can still enroll just at high price. 

no, that's brilliant. And I'm assuming that's been quite well received by your clients. 

It's been well received, and it's working! I had one client who their conversion rates were at 3%, and they were doing the, like, fast action bonuses, so you have 24 hours, and then they would, it was the open close cart, and then We switched it around, we softened the urgency and actually the coverage rates went up to 5%.

So  yeah, it's not only a case that it feels better, it actually works better. And especially if you are targeting other entrepreneurs or people that see a lot of courses, they're the ones that are going to be a lot more turned off by it because they've seen it over and over again. And they know that.

They're receptive to when it's not authentic urgency. So in that case, actually, yeah. Authenticity around urgency can actually, yeah. Boost your conversions. 

Do you think that is a big reason why people? Are or what, when you talk to them,  , aside from the fact that it seems like actually we do make decisions based on things like countdown timers even if we say that we don't like them ,  do you think that one of the reasons that there is like a bit more uncomfortableness around it is because we are so surrounded by all the time at the moment? 

so. I think.  Yeah,  I think people just want to chill at the moment, like it just feels like there's so much going on and there's just all the pressure all the time to make decisions and  it's if you're thinking about enrolling in a program, there are going to be others out there that there are, the market is getting more saturated and you, your customers deserve the time to actually explore and choose what's right for them.

It's not, I don't think it's fair to like necessarily put them on the spot and be like, you have to decide whether you're going to spend 3, 000 in this course in the next 20 minutes. Otherwise you have to wait a year like that. That's a lot. And I think people feel that and they want that kind of extra compassion, that flexibility from the course creators.

And I think  we owe it to our customers to, if I may be so bold  to give it to them and to give them that time and that space to actually make the right decision. And. You're going to get fewer refund requests as well, because if you panic people into buying, then  yeah, they're more likely to make a decision they don't feel great about in a week's time.

Yeah. No, that makes sense. hoW, what effect do you think this whole bro marketer vibe has had on our industry as marketers or people who are selling courses or coaching programs? 

I think,  so  I'm going to look at it twofold here. So on one hand, you've got the course creators, the ones I'm talking about that really, they create something usually because they had a problem and they solved it. And now they're really passionate about helping other people solve that. And they want to get it into their hands.

And I think the impact on  Them is that they're seeing all the bro marketers and it's like, it's putting them off and it's making them scared to sell. And as a result, as I said, it means that they're not selling their course. They're not getting it into power to people that need it. And then on the other hand, I think the customer is.

more jaded and possibly wiser than ever. So I think  this bromarter approach, I think it assumes customers  are just always thinking with their lizard brain that are just going to see and buy. And I see that changing. And I think the more respect you give your customers the more likely they are to actually engage and actually Ultimately by I don't think people appreciate anymore  by just being sold these wishy washy promises and then pressured into buying.

So I think,  yeah, it's changing. I do. I do think customers are wising up pretty quickly now because as it is getting it's difficult because obviously we're in our little echo chamber where we see all these course, some people still aren't really aware of online courses, but the people that see them a lot, I think they're just like hungry for some real connection and respect from  course creators, from sellers. 

And do you think that, because sometimes I look at the saturation of the market,  um, and I look at the promises that, that some other people are holding out to those who are making a course, this idea of like, you can build a six figure business passively? Through like a three page PDF and two 15 minute videos.

 Do you think that we are at the point where it is just too, it's too much and everybody is too jaded and the only way out is to completely change it? Or do you think that actually we just need to, there are just tweaks that we need to make? 

Yeah, I would say more the second. I don't believe that it's too saturated. I just believe that people are really hungry for like, just genuine connection and honesty. And if you can provide that, then you will stand out and that can be great.  Telling your story, being more transparent about your past failures, like you don't  people don't  from what I found, people don't always want to hear any more about how you put out a 3d 3 page PDF and made six figures.

They want to hear about what else you did and your failures, and that actually gives them a lot more confidence and builds a lot more trust. 

 I think it's also  the more you listen to your audience as well. I think that's a huge one. The more you can actually,  again, it comes back to the connection. So if people are sick of hearing, like, that you can get six figures and it's this. Guy post out like next to a Mercedes.

If they're sick of seeing that, then what is it that they really want, and this was interesting.  So I recently worked on the copy hackers launch for freelancing school.  And one thing we found in the research was that a lot of people, the reason they wanted to get six figures, it wasn't about like the nice car.

It wasn't about the big house. It was really about just. Supporting their family and having that consistency. And we had people that wanted to buy the parents a house, people that just wanted to have more time to spend with their kids. And actually  that message  was a lot more compelling. It's might be less sexy than the Mercedes, but actually people  people connecting with it and people were believing it more and trusting more and. 

wE don't have the conversion rates yet, but I've seen hundreds of people come into the program. So  that clearly seems to be something resonating. And I think that's also something that course creators should be thinking about is rather than taking your messages, your headlines from other brands, because that's what everyone else is doing, just really focusing on what your audience wants and then asking them again, but what you really want, just keep getting at it until you get.

to The deeper stuff. And I think people are just so grateful for that because it makes them feel seen. And ultimately everyone just wants to be seen, I think. 

No, totally. Which brings me to another kind of quite common conversion tactic that I know that I've had conversations with people about them not feeling hugely comfortable with it. And that's agitation. So like this idea that In order to make people feel seen, one of the tactics that we can use as copywriters is to to take their pain points, the problems that they have, and to agitate them, like to work at them.

I've sat through,

Knife,

yes, yeah, no, I've sat through webinars where people have said like, to like pick at them, to like poke at them, to like, to bring out the bruise. And I'm like,  obviously not everybody uses that kind of language. But so that's another common kind of area of concern that I've come across with clients with like fellow marketers.

How do you feel about agitation?

Yeah, I think that's such a great question and I have encountered this a lot too. And some people will just steer clear of it altogether. Which again, I think it's a shame because.  Well, it is an opportunity rather than to poke at the pain, twist a knife. It is an opportunity to extend empathy to your audience.

And I think that really is the bottom line. Is it coming from a place where you're trying to shame your prospects into buying and make them feel like they're not enough and therefore they need your course? Or is it actually you just saying,  look.  you have this problem. And I actually, I do need you to acknowledge it because just as a complete side example.

So my boyfriend had a bad tooth  and he let it, he just let it get worse and worse. And you just know, once it gets to the point where it's like it's an abscess and it's going to involve surgery, it's be so painful. And it's like,  just try to get him to go to the dentist, just reminding him, look, it's bothering you and it's going to get worse.

And I think the same does. Apply to the, when you're selling and I'm not necessarily, I'm not talking about making a mountain out of a molehole being like, Oh, if you don't get your systems in order, your entire life is going to fall apart. I don't mean

don't buy my course, you are going to be homeless on the street in a box.

but there is.

Yeah. 

Like, as a you as the coach, you do have some kind of  knowledge perspective on what can happen if they don't do it.

So I do think, yeah, you have an opportunity to let them know that this problem, it can become a bigger problem.  But  just, yeah, doing away with this empathetic, not shaming them, and also let them off the hook. I think that's a really important point, rather than twisting the knife and making it feel, them feel like they've failed and they're a failure without your cause.

More just,  Yeah, letting it off the hook, like it's okay. Like  I made this mistake. Loads of people make mistakes. It's, these problems come up, but there are solutions. And Hey, I do have one if you're interested. 

No, that's so interesting. I sat through when I did some, I did brain camp with Kirstie Fenton.  So she talks about the psychology behind a lot of the ways that people make decisions and framing and things. And one of the examples she gave was was like a fitness program, a fitness course. And she talked about this idea of the copy letting letting the readers off the hook.

Okay.  They, because they had tried lots of different things and those different things hadn't worked and they thought that it was them  and the way that the copy dug into like, it's not you, like it's like, you're not wrong, you're not rubbish. These are the things that you've been working against and this is how I can help you.

And I, yeah, so that, that kind of letting people off the hook is a really interesting framing. 

I think that's a really good explanation. I don't work typically in like weight loss copy or health coach copy, but I can imagine.  Like it's such a sensitive area and like you

terrible stuff out there.

yeah, and people have tried a lot and that it really does require empathy. Yeah, it's, you can't be making, shaming people and see, because when people,  I've seen it specifically with weight loss, when people are making those like choices out of feeling bad about themselves, it never works.

It never works. Like they need to, it needs to come in place of feeling good and.  I think actually as if you are, if you're a creator in that niche, like you have an amazing opportunity to like right the world's wrongs here,  um, and actually take a stand for your audience and give them that message that they have been desperately craving.

And that in that case, that the market saturation is a great thing for you because you get to be, you get to be the hero that comes in and tells them what they really need to hear and actually help them do something from a place of. Self love, positivity, and actually get the results that they want.

It feels a lot like you're taking these conversion tactics that You have learned are incredibly effective and that you've put into practice, you're taking them and using them in a way that  tries to make people's lives better. That like serves the needs and serves the the futures of your clients and then like their clients or their customers. 

Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it. I, rather than syncing up It as selling manipulation, tho that kind of language. I do like to think of it, of empowering people to make a decision and I like to talk to the audiences as a friend. It is if you have a friend and they come to you, they're like, oh, I dunno if I should enroll in this, or, I don't know if I should.

But this holiday even and you're like, you're worth it. Like you do that. And I think like extend that same kind of love to your audience and give them. Is give them the information they need to make that decision and empower them, remind them that they're awesome. And even though they're struggling with this and this, it's not their fault.

And they're all doing all this stuff. That's great. Be the voice that they need, be the friend and  people, even if, whether they buy or not, at least when they get to the end of your page, the sales page or the webinar, they will make a decision. And I think that in itself is powerful, just. Ending the indecisiveness, giving people the, empowering people to actually say confident yes or confident no, in which case they can go away and make another choice.

That's the thing, isn't it? Because you're not,  I think that when people think about what marketers and what copywriters and what salespeople are trying to do,  their focus is where you're trying to get everybody to say yes.  Everybody in the world needs to say that yes to this, like that's your end goal.

Whereas actually you're right, like we are trying to give people all the information that they need and all the context that they need and all the reminders in terms of the things that are bothering them, like a toothache. All of that information so that they can make the decision that's best for them. 

Exactly. Yeah. It's not, you don't want everyone to convert because you didn't create your course for everyone. And that's just going to lead to a lot of refund requests. Yeah you want to focus on  communicating the value to the audience that, that you created your course to serve and. 

They will find you if you keep that your message strong and you put it out there, like in all the ways you show up, whatever social media platforms you're using, however, you're showing up, they will find you. And then when they get to your sales page and they hear, they read all the stuff that's in your course, they're going to be a lot more likely to buy 

No, that's very

if they're the right person.

Yes.

Yeah. The way we have our focus is it converting the people that our course can generally help? Not the, not everyone. 

I have a social media question. So 

a lot of  a lot of strategies around social media are based on grabbing people's attention.

AnD urgency is one way of doing that. Agitation is one way of doing that. 

 I am not a social media expert. I'll be the first to put my hands up and say that  I just,  I guess I just try and have a conversation with, and I try and make sure that the conversation I'm having matches the conversation that's going on inside my audience's head. So I did one post that performed very well.

And the hook was confession. I hate how effective urgency is in marketing. And that got a lot of attention and I actually, I ended up getting hired for a big final project because of that one post. I sold a couple of courses I had, I got, I think like six leads from that one post. And I did that wasn't cause I even, I don't have a big audience.

It's just, it was the message that.  The people that I serve wouldn't like needed to hear in it. So I think,  yeah, that was, I guess that's an example of kind of taking a stand for the people that I work with the ones that are sick of, as we talked about the flashing countdown timers and It was refreshing for them to see a marketer actually saying, I hate urgency as well.

And then obviously in the post, I went on to explain how you can use urgency. But yeah, that's, does that answer your question?

yeah, definitely.  Yeah. So it's less, yeah, have a conversation. And you can do that with great hooks, like, so it's grab people in, but yeah, this kind of like flash sale  five, there are only five left when really there are like 105, like, that's not

Yeah, I do. If people don't know yet who you are or what you're selling, why do they care that there's only five left,

Yeah,

Like. It's like that hip only really works if you've got a big audience and they know and they already want your product. So that's what you'd use for like a retargeting  kind

That's interesting. A lot of these, a lot of these strategies would probably work very well if you had. A massive, huge audience and like big name recognition, like if you're target or if you're, I don't know, John Lewis over in the UK or if you're like somebody who's really famous, if they stuck up a post that said  like sale,  it's almost like that recognition does a lot of the kind of the trust and the credibility and all that kind of authority building stuff beforehand.

So you are, they're like walking in halfway through a conversation.

exactly.

Do you think one of the mismatches is that a lot of people in our circles anyway who are trying to use these kind of techniques in a similar way,  um, it doesn't work because,  well, because they're not target, like they don't have that massive audience.

They don't have the name recognition and like that and the brand recognition.

I think that's a really interesting observation and yeah, I think  when you're Target or Amy Porterfield you're, the authority does a lot of the work and I think when you're earlier in that journey, your messaging has to do. Heavy lifting until your name is the hook, you have to write really good hooks and you have to um, really focus on, you do have to put a lot into your copy.

And 'cause things like urgency, even just like repetition and frequency. They do work  on a big level, so yeah, I think.  When, yeah, just focus on the messaging and as you go up, if you continue to do that, you actually will get high conversions. It's funny you use John Lewis as an example, but I don't know if you're a fan of the John Lewis Christmas adverts.

So for anyone that hasn't seen them, they do. Everyone in the UK gets excited.  But the John Lewis Christmas adverts, it's always it's just always like a beautiful little story and it's emotional. And. That's the approach that they take. And it is very human. And  genuinely, like I, I wait every year, I wait for it.

It's like one of the highlights of my Christmas. So they're not just running around going 20 minutes left to get 15 percent off and there's stuff you don't even need. They're telling a story. And so I do think if you really nail the messaging, the storytelling early on,  if you take that with you, then like, like copy hackers, they've got a big audience, but they really still focus on.

What the audience, the storytelling, then yeah, you'll continue to see higher conversions and you won't need to resort to the kind of cheap conversion tactics.

Yeah, that's true. I'm still trying to convince my daughter that she does not want a toy Venus flytrap  thing from the John Lewis advert. Which will make no sense to anybody who hasn't seen it, but you need to go and watch it. Yeah, there are whole

it wasn't great this year. It wasn't great this year. You want to watch the penguin ones.

The penguin was good.

This year did freak me out slightly. I was like, I'm not having one of those in my house. It will just like, well, I'll come down in the morning. It will scare me.  So  one of the ways that one of the ways that I know that you as we've talked about briefly feed back in feedback that you get from your clients audience or from your audience is like collecting things. 

And I know that is incredibly effective and you've improved it with your results, but also you are running something that might be helpful for my audience to help them do a similar thing. 

Yeah, so I'm running a free masterclass called, I have to remember because I used my voice of customer to change the title recently it's create sustainable growth with an evergreen funnel that converts better every month. And the idea is. As I, yeah, as I said at the beginning to create that predictable revenue but not to just have it as a one and done.

So I think that's a problem that a lot of creators run into with evergreen funnels is they think they can just set it up and leave it and like. When I was on Amy Porterfield's team, like I saw she has an evergreen funnel, full time person just doing that, optimizing so  again, that disconnect between the like high level big audiences and the rest of us so yeah the idea is to collect that customer feedback and my webinar will show you how to do that and actually what to do with it so that you can improve your conversions over time and actually, Achieve that kind of dream of waking up to sales and having some sustainable passive income in your

Yeah, that sounds great. And I sat in on Abby's last webinar that she ran last month or the month before I was there. fairly recently and it was brilliant. So, you should definitely go get yourself a seat on that. We will, I'll put the I'll put the link to it in the show notes and you can go directly there.

I'm assuming it's evergreen, that being the point.

Of course, yeah.  Using the system I teach. 

That's yeah, that's a great selling point. Cool. Okay. And if people want to to come and find you generally, not particularly, not specifically for the webinar, where should they be? 

So probably LinkedIn's best. And if you message me on LinkedIn, I will reply. I'm very friendly. Hopefully you could tell.  And I've also, I've just created an Instagram and I would really appreciate some love over there because I'm very new to the party. So if you could  give me a follow on Instagram, come say hi, I would really appreciate that.

And that's @APTcontent

Oh, I will put that in the show notes too. Yeah. Everybody go make Abby feel welcome on Instagram.  Cool. Abby, this was brilliant. Thank you so much for coming and talking to us, sharing your conversion wisdom and yeah, taking this through this conversation. 

Thank you for having me. It's been great. Speak soon.