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The Soap Box Podcast

Breaking out of The Truman Show with Kira Hug

March 06, 2024 • Peta O'Brien-Day • Season 2 • Episode 2

This week on the soap box, I get to talk to. Kira Hug. A personality-driven copywriter and co-founder of The Copywriter Club: the home of everything you need to be a successful, growing, supported, and curious copywriter. And also someone who I'm proud to call a friend.

Kira is a thoughtful, curious, empathetic, and fascinating human being, and we covered so much in our conversation.

We talked about how you find a balance between caring about the things that are going on in the world and just, you know, doing your job on a daily basis. And how we make the transition between the two.

We talk about the impact that the iPhone has had on our ability to consume information, on how connected we feel, and the way that we communicate with other people.

And we talk about how Kira deals with the elephant in the room: this unrelenting tide of hardships and crises going on around the world. And how it often feels like we're not meant to talk about them in our businesses or in our lives.

So, if you're interested in trying to work out how people who do care can use their problem-solving skills to positively impact these elephant-in-the-room issues. Or Kira’s journey from iPhone to flip phone and how it's affected her life and relationships.

Why I turned off my breaking news notifications, and why I'm rediscovering a weekend newspaper habit. Then listen up.

Wherever you are in your life or business right now. Whatever issues you're grappling with. Whatever point you are at in trying to weave your business and your social conscience. There's something in this episode for you.

You can find Kira on LinkedIn here
If you're interested in working with her on your copywriting, her website is here.
Find out more about The Copywriter Club here

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Kira is a thoughtful, curious, empathetic, and fascinating human being, and we covered so much in our conversation.

We talk about the impact that the iPhone has had on our ability to consume information, on how connected we feel, and the way that we communicate with other people.

Why I turned off my breaking news notifications, and why I'm rediscovering a weekend newspaper habit. Then listen up.

I'm so grateful that Kira took the time to join us. And I can't wait to hear what you think.

Kira, thank you so much for joining me on the soapbox. I'm really excited to get to your team.

Oh, thank you for having me. I'm super giggly today with you because I'm just so happy to hang out with you.

We like giggles. Giggles are good. And like, we talk quite a lot, but when I came up with the soapbox you were, I think, number one on my list to interview. So, I'm really glad that we've finally managed to nail down a date.

Well, that's a little bit of pressure. Just a little bit. No I'm, I love the concept for this. I think it's very much needed. So I'm grateful to be a part of it.

. So for people in my audience who don't know you in which case they should go and find you immediately. Can you tell them a little bit about who you are, what you do, and kind of how you got to where you are?

Oh, okay. So I am a, what I call personality driven conversion copywriter, as in I work on brand positioning and brand personality, and then a focus on conversion, which means. Sales, right? I want to help you make money from the copy. So I typically work on large launches and we'll write sales pages for products anywhere from 500 to 10, 000 and email sequences.

I also focus heavily on brand strategy and messaging, which is really fun because that's where we figure out what makes you, you, what makes you different in a crowded marketplace. And so that's where the real magic happens. Along with that, along with my copywriting agency, I also run the Copywriter Club with my business partner, Rob Marsh, and we host the Copywriter Club podcast, which has nearly 400 episodes now, which is pretty crazy.

So we've been around for a while with the Copywriter Club, which Is the number one podcast for copywriters. And then we recently started the AI for creative entrepreneurs podcast, where we get to talk about the evolution of AI because it's happening so fast and how that affects all of us as creatives because it's new and there's so many questions.

So we try to tackle those there.

Yes, awesome podcasts, which everybody needs to go and listen to after they finish listening to this one, obviously. I'm declaring an interest that I am a member of the Copywriter Underground and a member of the Copywriter Think Tank.

And would pretty much eat up anything Keira and Rob would throw out there. But I will obviously try and, yeah, not be too effusive.

Yeah, well, I think that's what's been amazing about the Copywriter Club is just that we've been able to meet so many amazing talented people around the globe who are trying to build these businesses and doing it as creatives, which we all know is not easy. It's not easy at all. And when we're all doing it together, it makes it a little easier.

That's totally true. Cool. Thank you. And how did you end up copywriting?

I got into copywriting because, turns out, I was doing it all along, like many of us, and didn't know it. And even when I look back at high school, it's like I was on newspaper staff, writing all the articles. But, you know, you don't know copywriting is a thing until later in life. I was working for different startups, and I was really interested in marketing.

I was really drawn to that space. And so, as I moved into marketing I started to take on copywriting projects on the side for extra cash, and then I also realized that people were coming to me, colleagues from my startup that I was working at, and asking for me to write their web copy, and at the time I was creating all these different business ideas, I was really interested in being an entrepreneur.

Most of them were ridiculous ideas, and didn't take off, didn't have any legs. But the one that was working was copy, and that so many people were coming back to me for it. And so I actually had a friend that we both know, Alyssa Berkus, who hired me to write her web copy at the time. And she was just like, Kira, why are you trying to start all these businesses that aren't, I mean, she didn't say this, but these ideas that aren't really working.

And here's something that I know all these people have asked you to do for them and they're paying you money. So why don't you make this the business? And I don't know why it took, you know, her telling me that for me to really get it because I'd been doing it all along. But then I was like, Oh yeah, this is what people will pay me for.

This is a creative business. I can be an entrepreneur, like sign me up. And then I went all in and jumped really all in.

Alyssa is very wise. Everybody here should pay attention to what she has to say.

a smart friend to have.

Yeah, most definitely. So on the soapbox, we generally talk to people about the thing that keeps them up at night, that they like end up in the kitchen at the end of parties, talking to talk, like talking someone's ear off about like their soapbox.

What's yours?

This was a fun exercise because I realized I have so many of them. And as I was writing them in my journal, I kind of got to the one where I was like, okay, this is probably it. I think we'll see if you can articulate what this is because I probably can't. But I think my biggest struggle right now in life and business is that we're dealing with so many hardships.

And as a society as a planet, as humans, and it's one right after another, and it's, we're facing potentially, you know, climate catastrophe. War geopolitical tension that could result in nuclear war. Humanitarian crisis after crisis pandemics. Like, it goes on and on and it's exhausting and it feels like we're not supposed to talk about it, especially in business and it feels like if we do talk about it.

We're negative or like a doomer or we're like just a downer and it might even steal away from what you're doing as a brand or a business, right? It feels like it's a distraction. You're not supposed to talk about it. And it's not even just with business. It's just with like. People in general, it feels like we're so focused on what we're doing and work, and there's this huge elephant in the room that we're not talking about, and it's hard.

I struggle with that, not just with my own messaging, like when to talk about it, when not to talk about it, but just even like, how much time do I devote to thinking about larger issues. Existential problems, or do I just put my head down and do my job and just try to get paid and like, just try to take care of my family and just try to, like, stay positive and focused.

And it's hard to move between the 2, I struggle with that. And so I'm working through this myself now and definitely don't have all the answers, but feel that frustration. So maybe that's something that we could work with. I could also talk. For a long time about the iPhone and how that's a huge problem.

They're probably connected.

Yeah, they probably are connected, I think. Yeah, in terms of, like, our attention spans and our access to information, I think.

True. They're all connected. That is.

yeah, okay. Let's deal with the elephant in the room first, and then we'll go to iPhones. Because, yeah, I think you're right, it has It's the impact that it's had on our global society and the way that we consume information is incredibly important, but also quite destabilizing, I think.

Yes. And so we could throw social media in there with the iPhone and just put that together.

How long have we got?

like, say screens in general or

Yeah. Cool. Okay. So, like, let's start with, like, the elephant. It kind of feels like what you're saying is you want to rail against this artificial barrier that's been put in place between current affairs and like the world and global society and all these cultural, ethical, social issues that are going on and running a business.

Yes. Or we could just say even, I mean, we can say business because I think that's most relatable and let me know, but I think it's just like doing your job, just like even just being a professional today. And that could be in your own business, it could be working for a company, it could be showing up at your day job and growing your career.

So whatever you think is more useful in this conversation.

Yeah, no, I think, yeah, both both are relevant, I think and I was having a conversation in a networking, a business networking group last week and I was talking about some of the work that I do with startups about helping them. Kind of talk about those causes that they care about in their messaging. And this guy's run a business for, I don't know, 25 years now. He's a web developer and he was saying, well, I was always told that, you know, you should keep politics out of business because you don't want to offend people. And I think that's a really common, like view, like this divide between the two of them.

And I was, I did chat to him about it for a while. And I, one of the things that I said was, I think you could probably get away with that. 20 years ago, but I don't think you can today.

I think that's true and I think that's fair. If he's, I mean, I've heard that as well, and we're just living in a very different time. So both can be true. Like you can, that could have been the normal, the norm, and Today, that's no longer the norm and it's just what we were dealing with globally as a society 20 years ago is very different.

It was calmer. It was, I mean, I grew up in the 90s. It was very different. What I was dealing with was very different than what my kids are facing. So, that's fair, but also it's like, wake up. Where are you today? What does the environment look like today? And also, who are you selling to? That's a big, that plays a big role in it too, because if you maybe are selling to people who have a similar view from 20 years ago, and that's your audience, maybe you can get away with it a little bit longer than if you're trying to sell and market to Gen Y, Gen Z, alpha, little alphas.

Maybe half of, yeah, no, definitely. Why did, is it something that kind of, that makes you really uncomfortable, that idea that people are just ignoring what's going on?

I think it makes me feel isolated and it makes me feel alone. It makes me feel confused. It makes me feel a little, I mean, crazy. Like, I know we're not supposed to say crazy, but it makes me feel crazy. It makes me feel like I'm. Missing something or I'm just living in a different world. So, and some of that I'm okay with because I think it's just who I am.

Like, I like to be a little different so I can, that kind of fuels me. I'm like, oh, I think differently and I'm seeing the world differently. Like that's who I am as an Enneagram for I like to be special. Right. But the other part is like, it's just confusing. It's frustrating. And then you question a lot of what you're doing.

So it takes a lot of energy, mental energy. And I think it can be stressful in your career or in your business because it does force you to ask questions that can take away your focus. And I think for me. wonder how harmful that's been, you know, and is it worth it? Like, because I'm distracted by other things happening in the world that I care about, has that taken away my focus?

Has that impacted my business, my success? And also, you know, am I okay with that or not? And I think it just brings up other questions that I wonder about from other people. Like, are they thinking about this? Are they, you know, especially if you look around at people who in the business world seem to be doing really well.

I'm just sometimes surprised it doesn't seem to be a concern of theirs. And even sometimes clients of mine, too, where I'm just like, oh, do we want to, in your messaging, like, do we want to talk about anything that's happening in the outside world right now? And you know, sometimes they're just like, what do you mean?

And that's okay. They have that option, but I think I'm surprised that, yeah I just feel off from the norm. And that can be, that can cause tension.

Yeah, you feel like you're playing by different rules than everybody else.

It just feels like we're living in, is it, you know, like the Truman Show or like just, it feels like we're not living in the real world. I just want to live in the real world. And I

You have to make that choice. And once you make that choice, then there are repercussions. It's like, that affects everything if you do that.

Or you could figure out, there's a gray area, like how to talk about what you care about with what you're doing. You don't have to blow everything up. You don't have to quit what you're doing. You don't have to stop talking to your friends and family. So I think I'm trying to figure out like, what is the gray area?

What does that look like? Where you can feel like you're living in the real world and not in this bubble where we don't talk about hard things and continue doing what you're doing. And I know, I mean, that's how you help your clients, right? So it is possible and you are helping people do that in their businesses.

So that is happening, which is very cool to see.

And it's like, I'm gonna be honest, like it is a really hard balance to find, especially because It often feels like you are, you're building something as the landscape is changing, like as the soil is being washed away underneath or a new hill is appearing and suddenly you've got to change the structure of the house or whatever.

It involves a lot more work than just putting your head down and getting on with whatever it is that you're selling. And I wonder if that's one of the reasons why some people don't that they stay in their lane, I guess, because it is a lot more complicated to have to employ that nuance.

Yeah, I think it's it takes more energy. It takes more attention away from what you're doing. And I think we're all so strapped for time and focus as it is with everything we're dealing with with jobs and responsibilities, especially for caregivers, parents that we don't have, like, we don't have any extra bandwidth, you know, and so I don't have that.

Yeah. I think I don't fault, like, I understand that. I don't fault people for that because I fall into that too where there are many weeks where I'm just like head down doing what I need to do and I just have to shut off what's happening outside of my desk and my little world because I don't have capacity.

So every once in a while, though, I can put my head up and I do have capacity and that's when I kind of let it all in, but I don't think. Everyone has the ability to do that because they're dealing with different circumstances and a different hand they were dealt. And again, people are just like, people are just trying to get by as best they can right now.

you think there's something about your personality or your background or your experiences that mean that You do worry about what's going on in the world, and you do care about what's going on in the world, and you find it hard to keep your head down.

Yeah. I know it's baked into my personality, but I don't know where that comes from. Like, I know as. When I dived into my Enneagram 4 ness, typically we're drawn to kind of dark things, hard things, like parts of the world, parts of humanity that are not pretty to look at. And so I know that's just part of who I am.

Like I want to look at that and try to understand it. There's also part of my brain that just works. My background, okay, so maybe this is it. My background is as a creative and I went to school for fine arts and like was always the artsy. Designer growing up in my family. And so I think just the way my brain operates.

It's like connecting dots constantly, which is what we do as artists is what we do as copywriters for sure. And so I think we especially. Writers out there, creatives, this is how we think all the time. It's just trying to solve problems, trying to connect the dots. That's how you get creativity and new ideas.

And so I think I'm just wired to just want to put everything on a wall and connect it. You know, like you would in an FBI room, right? And you would do Claire Day did and like the show. Yes, the strings are you're connecting everything like that's my happy place. I would love to have a room in my house where I could just do that all the time and just connect dots and have things on the wall.

And that would be really fun. So I think

We both have kids who would go in and move the strings, so

Right, we would actually go, probably go insane because we would put our strings up and connect different ideas and we'd be very happy with it and then the four year old and two year old would come in and like cut all the strings.

Yes. Or just move them to mess with us.

Yeah. So I don't know if that answered the question, but I think it's a combination of not wanting to shy away from hard things and trying to solve problems and I mean we are. Naturally designed as problem solvers. So I think that's baked in us.

Yes. Yeah, I think so. And I think, like, you're a naturally empathetic person. Like, You know, like, it's very obvious in kind of interacting with you that you care about people's lives, that you, the people that you know, the people that you don't know. And I think that makes it even harder to look at a million different problems that involve human beings and not think about them.

Yeah, exactly. And then I feel like there's a lot of advice out there, you know, for people like us and you're just like, well, just don't read the news. Like, just don't watch the news. Don't scroll the news feed on your phone. And I, again, I'm like not a super big fan of phones iPhones and scrolling. So I get that.

But I also feel like I don't want to cut off the world. Like, I don't think the solution. I know, you know, our brains might not be wired to take in the problems of the world in one time, in one moment, and I get that, and, but at the same time, I'm not quite ready to give that up. I feel like that's also not the solution.

So, what is the solution? The in between? I mean, there's probably a bunch. Taking some breaks. Getting a flip phone. I don't know. There are probably other solutions.

Yeah. But I think it is, it's definitely easier for some people than it is for others to like, yeah, to pick a lane and get on with whatever they're doing. Okay. Let's talk about iPhones because I think that one of the, like I've talked before about social media and how the way that it's set up to be to encourage antagonism and to encourage conflict to keep you engaged.

And to put us in camps so that we fight with each other and then we'll drive engagement and all that kind of thing. So it's definitely affected the way that we communicate with each other. But I also think that. The increase, the massive increase in access to information that we have has made us think very differently about the world and the and put so many more problems in front of us than we would have had in front of us even 10 years ago.

So do you want to give people a little bit of a background about you and iPhones for those who haven't heard you

Oh, I would love to.

Yes, go for it.

My favorite topic. So about almost a year ago now, I switched out my iPhone for a flip phone, which was something I wanted to do for a while, but it was around, I think it was like around my birthday and I was just like, I'm just going to do it. So, got the very basic flip phone.

And just the thinking was, this is an experiment. Let me just see how it goes. But I was just frustrated with iPhone living and wanted to try something new. Also, I like, you know, like I said, I like to feel very special and so that made me feel very special. So I think there's definitely some personality things going on here.

What I found is like, I feel a lot better with my flip phone. My head feels more clear. I feel like I connect deeper to people more deeply when I'm with them. I'm not checking my iPhone. Like, I just found myself, even my kids were in the bathtub, I think my boys were in the bathtub one night, and I was in there with him because I need to make sure, you know, make sure my toddler doesn't drown.

And I was like scrolling on my iPhone and just kind of missing it and just like constantly grabbing it. So I'm not immune to that. When I had my iPhone, I was on it more than I liked. And so it just seemed like this was the best solution. I mean, I had read about how you can gray out the background. You can pull some of the apps off.

But to me, it was more symbolic. Like, why is this the norm that we all have iPhones? And it's just socially acceptable. Socially accepted that we should all have them at this point. And even the way business is designed now, you can't, it's really hard to get by without it. It's hard. I couldn't get food at the airport because you needed to pay with your iPhone.

And you couldn't even pay, like, it was so hard to pay with cash. Or credit card, whatever code I had. And like, the bartender who was trying was so frustrated with me, and I was like, trying to tip her, and I was just like, I'm just I don't have my iPhone with me. I actually did have it in my backpack, but I was trying to live life without it. So it's just not designed with, I mean, it's not designed to live, it's harder to live without it. But anyway, here I am now, it's been almost a year, I figured out kind of a nice in between. So like, to be transparent, I have, my iPhone is a work iPhone. And it's also kind of like an extra in case we ever need an extra backup.

And there's certain ways I use it. there are a lot of ways I don't use it. And my primary personal phone is my flip phone. And so that's the one that's with me. So it's kind of this nice blend, which I think could seem counterintuitive to a lot of people. But to me it works really well. Because I'm not going on there for social media, unless it's for work.

It's just more controlled. I'm less likely to get addicted to it. I don't have my email on it. So that's been a huge help. It's hard to tell my gosh, it's so hard to text people. So my texting has reduced and I know that's tricky because a lot of people love that. And so there's like the whole communication side where it's a lot harder to communicate with people and families are in friends are typically like, not living in the same place anymore.

So that's a downside, but also. All the texting was also driving me nuts. Like, I felt obligated as a people pleaser. Someone texted me, like, it would weigh on me. I'd have to get back to them. And I just now, it's like, people know. They text me. Like, it's gonna take me a while to get back to them. It's gonna be a couple words.

It's gonna be misspelled. And it's gonna be poor punctuation. And no emojis, cause it's from a flip phone. And they're lucky to get anything, because it's so hard for me to text. So. There's some relief about social expectation that has happened with it, where I'm like, don't expect me to be in this game that we're all in.

And that's been huge too. So I'm still figuring it out, but overall it feels good. And it feels good to show people that like, there are other solutions we can figure out here.

Yeah, that you don't have to kind of do things the same way as everybody else is doing, like there. Another way is possible.

But at the same time, like, I still own that original iPhone, so, you know, I haven't thrown it away. So how much, you know, how much am I really changing? I don't know. I'm not saying, like, screw you iPhone, you're gone. Some people do that. That's a choice too. It's a harder choice. It's a harder choice because then you need to buy a camera.

I love, like, the camera on an iPhone is amazing. So you could do that. Then you need a navigation system for driving around because it's baked in. So there's, anyway, there are options, but this seems to work for right now.

And has that affected the way that you engage with what's going on in the world?

I'm not on social media as much, like it's very intentional. So it's on my, my, my desktop laptop. So like it's for LinkedIn, but it's during working hours. It's purposeful for the most part, like it's not perfect, you know, I can still scroll and end up. Scroll intro too long, but it's very much like during working hours.

It's intentional. It's about work. I don't get lost. And like, I just don't struggle with social media like I did before and it wasn't working for me. I felt really depressed when I would go on Instagram. So that's not happening. I don't worry about work stuff like checking my email. Like, I was checking obsessively.

And now it's just like, when I am done, I'm done. Or if I need to check in, like I'll come up to my office and like check my laptop, but it's a couple extra steps. It just makes everything harder. So there's more friction. I've just created a lot more friction for everything. So you can still do it, but it's just like, you have to really want to do it.

And it's less of my go to response for, Oh, I'm bored. Let me get on my phone and check my email for the hundredth time today. Whereas like, I see other people and I'm still like. I'm judgy, of course, and

We're all dredgy.

I even, like, with my husband, right, I can see he hasn't given up, and he doesn't need to, he doesn't have to make this choice, but, like, his go to, you know, if there's a moment, pause, is, like, checking his phone, and as it is with a lot of adults I hang out with, and so it's just a different impulse, where, like, I like to just sit there and not do anything, and I like to sit at the airport, everyone's on their phone at the airport, and just, Not do anything or like read a magazine or read a book and just stare at people because everyone is practically on their iPhone.

And so it's just a bizarre world where you're like, what happened? We used to talk to each other. I'm

Yeah, it's

Come back to me.

matter of life. I think I remember the first kind of intentional thing that I did in terms of my phone and and notifications or interruptions was just, I think it was like six months before COVID or something. And there had been a spate of like natural disasters or like there had been, there was a kidnapping.

There was like a whole bunch of like

yeah.

kind of breaking news stories. And I had, like, I read The Guardian, which is a fairly, well, I don't know, depends who you talk to, I would say it's on the left of, kind of, papers in the UK. And I had their app on my phone, and I had it set up so, like, not every news story would appear, but, like, if there was a breaking news story, I'd get, like, a pop up notification on my phone.

And they were just all the time. Every half an hour, every

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

And I kept on getting pulled out. Like, I'm really easily distractible anyway. Like, but it would just pull me out of everything. And it would pull me out of whatever I was doing. And then I'd read the thing.

And then I'd feel all the things about what I'd read. Because that's how my brain works. I'm immediately like. in it and thinking how terrible it must be for all the people and what we can do to solve it, like what you were saying earlier, like actually like problem

Let me solve this problem

Yeah, like right now when I'm like on the loo or like trying to get somebody a snack or whatever okay, I'm gonna solve world hunger now and then I will cook dinner.

Yeah, and it was ridiculous. It was just getting ridiculous because I couldn't focus on anything that I was doing because I was just getting bombarded with all this. Like rubbish. And yeah, and so I turned off the breaking news notifications it felt really transgressive.

It felt like I was shutting out Important things and that I was and that I was far too privileged to be able to do that And like, and those two things are true, like the stuff that was happening was important to the people it was happening to and to kind of the wider society, depending on what it is. And there was an element of privilege to me being able to, like, remove myself from those thought processes and from that interruption. But I'm not so sure it was a bad thing. Like, I didn't stop watching the news. I didn't stop it's almost like you're, when you go and check your email, you have to go up to your office and you have to do it.

So, like, when I was watching the news, I would have to, I mean, we'd have to wait for anything now, not I have to wait for the nine o'clock news or whatever I could, but I would just like turn on the television and watch a news channel, or I would have to go to the app or the web page and open it up and read actual articles.

And. And that happened, like, it would happen less frequently during the day, but it was a more kind of, like, focused, concentrated moment, and I could spend some time going, Okay, what do I think about this problem? Like, is there anything that I can do? And then when I'd done that, I could go, Okay, that has been part of my day, and now I'm moving on to something else.

And it made me feel much calmer about the whole thing. And it made me feel less like throwing my phone across the room and shutting off all the news completely. So, I don't know, maybe that's a bit more of a blend or a kind of grey area.

I think it's a healthier approach for you, right? Maybe not for everyone, but I think that's what's worked for me, too, is like, I was getting the notifications from when I was living in D. C. from the police department for every year. Sure. Every occurrence in D. C. citywide, I would get a text about it.

And so it's a lot of pings, and it's like, not, you know, it's robberies, it's like, shooting, and for some reason, I thought it was good for me to know what was happening in my city. So I, like, what was I gonna do? But so then I was just like getting pinged all the time and then freaking out. I was like, oh wait.

And I was trying to figure out how close is that to my house. So finally I took that off my phone too. And I was just like, this is bizarre. Why am I doing this to myself? And I do something similar to you now where it's like, I love my weekend newspaper. I don't realistically have time to read it during the week, but on the weekends I can get my hard copy.

It's delivered to my house. It's my, like my happy space is reading. On Sunday morning and I can get all my news. So I like I don't really need to have it on my phone. I mean, it's a good alternative to not go on there constantly. So that's helped me. And you mentioned privilege. I think it is worth noting.

Like, there's a lot of privilege even in going from. A smartphone to flip phone like that's the smartphone is the best communication tool that exists for us. So, and communication is so important. And so I have that privilege of like, I have a partner who is helping me raise our kids and my husband, like, he is great with his phone.

So he is the primary contact for most everything. Like my parents know if they need to reach us, they go to him. He's a great communicator. And so I'm able to be my, like, Unique, you know, self and get my flip phone because I have him and and I have other ways of connecting, but some people like, this is their communication tool.

They need to reach their children, especially when you have teenagers. Like, that's a big thing. So that will change. You need to be able to reach people. And if that's the most efficient tool, even yesterday night, I was talking to my brother. And I was talking on the phone to him on my flip phone, and my son is really good buds with his son, and so they hadn't chatted, and they got on, they were chatting, it was super cute, and they were like hi.

But they couldn't really hear each other well, because it's a flip phone. And so in that moment, I was thinking, like, This is the magic of the iPhone, because if I had mine, they could FaceTime, and here are these cousins who love each other, who don't live near each other, one's in Maine, one's in D. C., and that is magical that they could be together and see each other and have, like, this connection, that because I have my flip phone, they just weren't gonna have that moment, it was like, lasted for a couple minutes, they got frustrated, and then they got off the phone, and so, like, I see, you The benefits and there are so many benefits.

Maybe it's just the awareness of, like, when is it helping you and when is it hurting you and just having that awareness and trying to manage through it.

Yeah, no, I think so. The whole DC alert thing, I think that, well, no, I would have done exactly the same thing, like, we've got a town wide Facebook group, and people will post things like who's, like, whose car has just run into this car, or, like, somebody's just, somebody's dog has just, like, messed on my driveway, all by all of the low level, like pretty petty stuff.

And then the bigger things about like, if there's been a burglary or if there's been like an accident and it kind of made me think that you said earlier that we're not. Our brains aren't designed to, to live the way that we live now, like they're designed and to be in smaller communities where you would catch up with the news on like a semi regular basis, but like, you wouldn't.

you wouldn't have access to it all the time, like, even if you're not going back to, like, hunter gatherer times, if you're going back to, like, small communities, like, you'd all get together, like, once a week and you'd catch up on the gossip before a church service, or you'd or at the school gates or something, there would be those regular, like, touch points where you'd find out some of what was going on, but you'd never find out all of what was going on.

I'm like constantly listening to like right wing shock radio hosts in the UK going oh everything's terrible now and every other day I'm hearing of a murder or a shooting or blah or whatever. I'm like yes this has been going on for a really long time but you just didn't know about it because we didn't have 24 hour news like we didn't have a million different radio programs.

We didn't have that, that you could have like breaking news notifications on. We didn't have social media. All this stuff was still happening. It just didn't hit you in the face every day. Well, and like every second of every day and our brains feel under attack when we have to deal with that.

And I think that makes us feel and less able to tackle any of these problems that actually are the elephant in the room that we do all need to grasp at some point.

Yeah, I think it's exactly that and I think it's like a combination of things, so it's that, being aware of that, so protecting yourself as you did, by taking notifications off and figuring out what's your limit, like, it's different for everyone. But then it's also, part of me is wondering, well, okay, but we now do have access to all of this, so there's a huge downside.

We know that. We're not wired for this, but what is the upside? So what can we do with all that? If we do have all that information, you know, as empathetic people, problem solvers, like what is the opportunity here? And so I think we see a lot of the negative impact, but I also wonder for people like us who like to tape everything to the wall and connect it with string.

Maybe we are useful here and we can. Think outside of the box and do what you're doing, creating this podcast to have these interesting conversations and to not just do business as normal. And if I wonder if I managed my own information too tightly, I might miss out on that. And maybe I'd be more sane and more calm.

Maybe I'd be more chill, but maybe. I wouldn't do what I'm supposed to be doing in 2024 in the future to actually help make a difference or like just do something that matters, you know, so I guess that's what I struggle with still.

I think being sane is overrated, frankly but that's the whole of the conversation.

That's the next episode.

That's the next episode. Okay, so, so what are you trying, what are you doing at the moment, like, in 2024 and beyond

I thought I could just complain and I didn't have to have solutions or do anything about it. This is

to have anything, like, I'm just curious, like, because I know, like, that, yeah, these are things that you care about and you're not the kind of person to sit and do nothing.

yes. This is a rebuilding year, so there's a lot of rebuilding happening. There's a lot of kind of behind the scenes, deeper work. That sounds really cheesy. Deeper work that's happening just to, like, I feel like right now I'm just wide open and scouting out all the opportunities and just kind of like putting feelers out.

And what's really cool is Like, I'm working with a client right now who's a psychologist and a scientist who has similar conversations to what we're having here and is trying to solve this problem and build community and have, and he's got the tools from his research to have deeper conversations so people actually can hear and connect in a deeper way.

And so I'm working with someone like him, which is so satisfying because I can do what I do best, right? Like I'm doing my messaging thing and my copywriting thing and positioning and then work with people who are making a huge change. So I think that's something that doesn't require any of us to burn down what we're doing.

It's like, take what you're doing and partner with people, whether they're clients or it's a company you want to work for and work with cool people who are doing cool things. So that's something that's happening. I'm also currently in a. Certification coaching program to learn just how to better support, better help people and have new skills to go deeper with people.

I'm really pulled towards mental health right now and looking into other pathways in that direction, but I think most of it is just for me right now is just like. Focusing on opportunities that exist that maybe I wasn't paying attention to. So one example is yesterday I got an email from our doctor's office, which is like a larger greater health office.

And it was a call for board of directors and it was, you know, a volunteer opportunity. It's like something that my radar is up. So it just pulled me in. I was like, this is a good way to have an impact and make a difference in my community. So I think part of it is like, just paying attention to what already exists because it's out there.

And leaning into it, and then focusing on what you can do locally so you don't feel stressed out about things you can't do globally. And so that gives me some hope where I'm like, here are things I can do in my community, here are things I can do in my current job, in my current business, with people I'm already connected to, and then let me keep my eyes open for new opportunities, new classes I can take, new certifications, new doorways I maybe wasn't even looking for a year ago.

And so that's where I am right now. Definitely.

I, like, I have to say, there is a lot to be said for. having a building and consolidating season. Like, I think burning everything down and jumping into like more traditional saving the world type activities looks great, but isn't always as constructive as we hope it or as impactful as we hope it can be.

Whereas those smaller opportunities can make a real difference in the lives of individuals. And that's how we build up and make a difference kind of, yeah. In a wider sense,

Yeah, and it's just more realistic, right? I'm into tiny habits, tiny changes. And like, also, we still have to pay our bills. Like, we still gotta get paid. We gotta, we can't just, most of us can't just quit and like, then do the thing that's gonna save the world. So we have to figure out other ways to do it.

In our lives as it exists right now, while figuring out the next step,

yeah, and I think that's the, yeah, that's the conversation that I end up having with an awful lot of business owners is that I care about all this stuff, but I still have to like pay my mortgage. Like, how do I do, how do I do both because the temptation is to just jump in and make your. Make the digital real estate that you own as a business or that you kind of rent or whatever to make it all about the thing that's happening right now that the cause the campaign that's happening right now.

And then go, Oh crap, but I've got no clients coming in because I haven't been talking about it. And now I can't do anything about this cause because like, yeah, because I can't pay

so stressed for money and I have no

Yeah. Yeah.

have no energy to help the cause I care.

Yeah. That's. It's very much real. I think what I, okay, what I was going to add as you're saying that is I think that we can, we could just continue to do what we're doing if we're happy doing what that is for the most part, and we can just change ourselves.

And then that'll automatically change everything around us. So if it's like I'm continuing to do my. Copywriting business, just as it is, nothing changes, but I am doing my internal work, and changing how I think about the world, how I want to solve problems, and doing all that deep work on myself, which is not easy, and it's just, it's going to change everything anyway, and in the meantime, like, you're still running your business, you'll probably just start to attract different people, or maybe you'll put together different offers, or maybe you'll start something brand new, a new podcast, a new Concept a new project.

So I think you're right. I mean, I think it's like, don't burn everything down. Just focus on what you're working on. Rebuild yourself, keep getting paid, keep doing what you're doing. And then it will, it'll evolve from there.

No, I think that's true. Cool. That's quite a nice place to wind up the conversation, I think. Otherwise we could, a positive place, we like ending in positive places. Otherwise we could just carry on chatting all day and I've got to go pick up the kids. If people want to find you like where should they go?

Where do you hang out? Obviously not on WhatsApp.

Yeah, that has also been tricky because there are a lot of different conferences and stuff when people interview you on Boxer, so I have to, like, add the Boxer and then take it off after. But anyway, you can find me on LinkedIn. So LinkedIn is where I do like to hang out. I know you're on there. I like to hang out with PETA on LinkedIn.

So that's a social network. And then if you want to explore what I do as a copywriter and as a brand strategist, you can check me out at kirahug. com. We could work together. That'd be a lot of fun. Or if you're a copywriter creative and you want to check out our podcast for the copywriterclub. com, you can explore like 400 episodes.

Someone recently told me they were listening to like the first five and I was like, don't do that. They're probably awful, but they still hold up. They still hold up. So you can start from the beginning and have 400 episodes of learning about business, marketing, copywriting mindset, and that will keep you busy after you're done with this podcast, though.

You need to be caught up on this podcast, and then you can go to the Copywriter Club

We've only got like 25 episodes. It's not going to take them that long. I did, though, I did start with number one of your of your podcast, but it was like, I think that was like four years ago. So I think there were only about 100 and something episodes. But yeah, no, I did properly binge them. There is so much wisdom and so many cool people.

I'm embarrassed to ever go back to the first few and listen to my, like, I can't listen. I don't know if you have that problem. I cannot listen to myself. So I will never go back. I won't even go back a week. I won't even listen to the podcast from last week. And like, won't

Lives in the present.

I will never listen to this show.

Not because I don't love you and the show, but because onward.

That's fine. I won't be offended. On that note, Kira's never going to listen to the podcast.

No, this episode, I will listen to your podcast. Just not this episode.

Okay, that's fine. It

I was not clear.

wasn't very clear, but that's okay. I knew what you meant, really. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. It's been a blast and it was a really interesting conversation and I'm sure that everybody will get lots out of it. I'm expecting sales of flip phones to raise slightly.

I've invested in this flip phone

have done.

Yes.

Okay, well, I will let you get on with the rest of your day. And thank you for being on the Zote

Thank you. It was so fun. Thank you.