Our bodies are political, with Clio Wood Artwork

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The Soap Box Podcast

Our bodies are political, with Clio Wood

March 13, 2024 • Peta O'Brien-Day • Season 2 • Episode 3

In all my soapbox content, I really tried to get the message across that politics isn't all votes, caucuses, ideologies, and arguments. It's not all climate change, economics, and big business. Politics is in the everyday structures, systems, and barriers that we face.

It's what gets funded. It's childcare. It's how we access healthcare. It's mental health support and how this helps us work. It's caring responsibilities and the rules and guidelines on the internet. It's food safety and who looks after playgrounds. It's families and who's protected. It's everything.

And that's why today I'm talking to Clio Wood. Clio is a women's health and sex positivity advocate, a journalist, and the author of “Get your mojo back: sex pleasure and intimacy after birth”. As well as the founder of &breathe: an award-winning well-being retreat company for motherhood and menopause.

Because politics is also - sex.

We talk about the marginalization of women's health.

We talk about how normal medical words are considered swear words or inappropriate across social media and in our own conversations. So that we feel uncomfortable talking about our own bodies. Which then has implications for how we can advocate for our own health and safety, and communicate in our relationships.

The way that society treats mothers, and women at all stages of their lives is political. And we do use words in this week's episode, like vagina and vulva. We use words like sex, childbirth, periods, we talk about episiotomies, internal scarring and ultrasounds.

If you're at all uncomfortable about those kinds of things, then there are plenty of other episodes that you can dive into. But I really hope you won’t. Because these are not issues that should be unspoken taboos. These are the everyday experiences of over 50% of the world's population.

We owe it to ourselves. We owe it to those around us. We owe it to our children to be comfortable talking about them. And to be comfortable dealing with the way that society is marginalizing the lived experience of half the planet.

Things we mention in the episode:

Clio on Instagram
Clio's book: "Get your mojo back"
Clio's website for retreat and 1-1 information
"Invisible Women" by Caroline Criado Perez
Sex Positive Families on Instagram
Contribute to the #censHERship survey

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Because politics is also - sex.

When I got home after having both of my babies, all the focus was on them.

I didn't know anything about how I should be feeling, how I should be healing. What was normal? What wasn't. And bar a six week check, here 95% of the questions were about the baby, nobody really talked about me.

And I know, from my conversation with Clio, from my conversations with lots of other mothers, that that is nothing out of the ordinary.

And it has implications. Implications that Clio and I talk about on this week's episode of The Soap Box Podcast.

We talk about the marginalization of women's health, because you know, it’s obviously too hard for scientists to deal with. We talk about airbrushing, and now AI, and the effect that that has on our mental and physical health. And the mindset of our children.

We talk about the inadequacy of education around sex relationships and our bodies for children. And we think about where they're getting their info from right now.

I got a lot of my conversation with Clio. She's an incredibly interesting and charismatic and inspiring human being, who's really putting herself out there and talking about things that some other people aren't comfortable talking about. So I really hope that you will get a lot out of it too. I really hope that you will go and follow Clio, and that you will grab her book because it is fabulous. And that you will jump on the #censHERship campaign. I will put the links to all of those in the show notes, so you can go and find her so that you can join this movement. So that you can feel confident and comfortable breaking these taboos in your own lives. So get comfortable. Pour yourself, a glass of wine. And enjoy listening to Clio jump on her soapbox.

Clio. Thank you for joining me on the podcast. I'm really excited to get to talk to you. Not

for inviting me.

I met you at a doing it for the kids kind of meetup in London, I think it was last year, but time is a weird concept, so it might not

Yeah, particularly since COVID, who knows what's happening.

I met you at some point, so like in real life, which was lovely. Um, but for the people in my audience who don't know you or who you are and what you do, um, can you give them a little bit of an intro?

Yeah, sure. So, uh, I guess I do a few things, but I always lead with, uh, the fact that I work in women's health. I'm a women's health advocate, journalist, and author. My book, Get Your Mojo Back, Sex, Pleasure, and Intimacy After Birth came out. about this time last year, so we just had the year anniversary of the release, which is exciting.

Uh, and I'm also the founder of a company called And Breathe Wellbeing, which is all around, again, women's health, and we focus on retreats for the postnatal, um, motherhood in general, um, postnatal period, um, and motherhood in general, and, uh, the menopause as well. So there are loads of similarities with that.

with those kind of two, three stages. Um, and we're not really addressing them. I think in, uh, the NHS, the way that we are taught to look up after ourselves, uh, as we grow up, you know, in PSHE, um, sessions and so on, which I'm actually experiencing firsthand at the moment with my daughter as well. So. So she's going through it.

So that's really interesting. Um, but yeah, so all driven by, I guess, some of my experiences in the postnatal period and experiences growing up really as well in terms of how I view myself, my body, what I knew and didn't know. I didn't know being the kind of, uh, operative part of that sentence, um, about my own health and periods and birth and everything really.

So yeah, that's me.

And your book is brilliant, um, I'm going to link to it in the show notes. I am, um, two thirds of the way through it because reading books at the moment with a four year old who is obsessed with playing make believe is quite difficult.

Absolutely. But, um, it was hopefully quite a fun and easy read. So hopefully it's a nice break in between, but yes, I hear you on the books front. I somehow managed to get through about 20 books in January, which. blew my mind a little bit. And then I think I basically fell off the wagon and I've managed about two books since then.

So, um, obviously I had my like book energy with me in

That's you for the year now.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

no, and your retreats are brilliant. , they like, they look great. The fact that they're so focused around, what women need at various points in their lives and, and like, Fitting in with,, with what's going on, so that you do some, the way you can go away and, and work, what, , with your family, don't you?

exactly. Um, that's kind of the whole point. I suppose where I am, where I was when I created them was that You know, I was finding motherhood, the transition to motherhood, really really hard and I know that it's probably an overused phrase at the moment, people are aware of it, but it's still when it hits you, when you're actually in that first flush of parenthood, is mind bogglingly hard and it's such a transition and what I really found was that All of the activities, all of the conversation from, you know, the midwives to the health visitors, the GPs was all about the baby, which is fine.

We obviously have to keep them alive and that's very important. But I was really struggling and I think that got missed quite a lot. I was in denial myself as well because I was, You know, high achieving woman, very intelligent, very independent. Of course I'm going to nail this as well. It's not a problem.

And actually it turned out it was a problem and it was really difficult for me. I had severe postnatal depression. I had PTSD from birth trauma, and none of that I really kind of recognized in myself for a number of years, but I did feel slightly abandoned and slightly unsupported. You know, We don't live in that kind of village anymore.

We don't have our family and friends close to us, or not to the extent that you would be able to kind of call on them and be really naked and vulnerable with them, in terms of how you're struggling. So, I found that really hard, and I just found that there wasn't anything there. out there that was looking after me instead of the baby.

Um, and I really wanted to go away and kind of reset and, and kind of be in an environment where I was looked after. Something like a retreat, but actually there are no retreats. where you can go and bring your baby and bring your other half as well. There were a few mom and baby retreats around, there still are.

A lot of them, I would say 99 percent of them are focused on yoga, which is also lovely, but not really what I wanted. I wanted to be a little bit more intentional about my rehabilitation and kind of functional fitness. So I wanted that to be Strength based, Pilates based, you know, feeling, feeling into the core, knowing how to rehabilitate properly, looking at breathing.

Um, and so that didn't exist either. So I kind of put those things together and And it was, the idea is that you go, um, and our very original kind of classic retreats, as I call them, are the postnatal retreats. Um, and, you know, as the years progressed, we obviously welcomed siblings, particularly for returning families as well.

We've had lots of returning guests. Um, and so it kind of became a family and postnatal offer. Um, which is really lovely because you get people at slightly different stages of parenthood who are really sharing their journeys, good and bad, and funny and supportive. Um, and so it's really lovely. And the vibe is just really friendly and really kind of about creating that network that perhaps you didn't have at home, um, which I think is really key.

So that, that was kind of where it, where it came from for

Yeah. Rebuilding that village.

Yeah.

Um, and we've probably skipped ahead, but, this is what happens. I get really interested in things and then I'm like, Oh, I'm meant to be running a conversation here. I'm assuming that, um, from what I know about you and from what you've just said, that this ties in with what your Soapbox is, that thing that kind of gets you talking, gets you ranting, for want of a better phrase.

Yeah, absolutely. It's all around women's health and the fact that it is particularly marginalized, I think, you know, and my particular topic of interest, you know, since kind of hosting the retreats and doing more speaking and writing is about sexual well being and motherhood because it does feel like.

almost the last taboo in one's house, you know, there's a real distinction, uh, between the kind of siren stereotype, the kind of woman as a sexual being and the mother stereotype, that kind of, um, Madonna, uh, aspect where it's all about giving, it's all about purity, which has always struck me as particularly galling because you cannot be a mother without having sex.

Yes.

Usually. Um, so it just feels particularly silly, um, and for us not to feel like we're able to own that and to talk about it and for it to be, you know, an issue that when you bring it up with your GP, they're like, well, yes, you might find it a bit awkward now, or it might be a bit painful now, or this happens.

Because your mum was, that's just normal. That's just part of it. You know, have a glass of wine and relax. And that really, really irritates me because I'm like, no,, just because something is common doesn't mean that it's normal. And it doesn't mean that you should have to put up with it.

So that's my soapbox.

And have you what reaction have you found since you started talking about that in your book and in your speaking and and in your kind of online presence

It's really funny because yes, it does feel a bit taboo because no one's really talking about it. The minute that I put my hand up and kind of start sharing, you get people sort of sidling over to you. You know, when you mentioned earlier, can, can I just ask you a quick question? Yeah, see, we're all struggling with these things on a lesser or greater, to a lesser or greater extent, but no one really knows where to turn.

No one really knows where to ask, or if they have asked, they haven't really got a satisfactory answer. Um, particularly when GPs are so stretched, that is your first port of call, you know, it's a 10 minute appointment, you know, they might not be able to help that much. You don't get referred on. Unless it's really, really serious and you have to really advocate for yourself.

But the problem is you can't advocate for yourself because you don't have the information at hand to know what is available or what you should be asking for. So it's a real catch 22 in terms of, you know, the resources and information that we have at hand and obviously the lack of information that we had growing up in terms of like ownership of our bodies and what is to be expected and what can be helped and who are the professionals that can maybe, you know, guide you down that path. That's, that's where I am. Um, that's kind of my role, I suppose, is to direct people to kind of make sure that there is that information to kind of bring together the experts and to kind of signpost people on their journey. Um, and I think, you know, it's definitely been well received. I get a lot of messages saying, thank goodness you wrote this book.

I thought it was just me. And Turns out it's not so hopefully it can be a little bit reassuring as well.

Yeah, and there's such power in being that person that puts their hand up and goes Like this is what's going on with me And everybody else suddenly feels, yeah, less alone, um, and less isolated, and less wrong. Mm

hope that's true. Yeah, I think definitely, I think it, once one person starts talking about it, it takes the shame away a little bit. You know, and it can feel it's quite a big hurdle to get over to, to be that person to kind of put your head above the parapet and kind of own it. Um, and it isn't easy. And I really respect people who do and who share that journey, particularly when it's a very personal journey.

And again, as I say, something that people are not really talking about. Um, but yeah, shame, I think is at the heart of it. And I think that's really, you know, Sad in a way, because we all have sex, we all got here by sex. Um, and there is no shame at all in wanting to feel pleasure, wanting to feel good, like what are we here for if we're not trying to kind of feel good in ourselves and feel happiness and love and all of that is really connected.

But as mothers, particularly, we are not expected to want pleasure. We are expected to be bottom of the to do list. We don't prioritize ourselves and our intimacy because it's all about giving to other people and servicing other people first.

Yes. And it feels like that they're, that that's a product of the wider, kind of, social system and commentary, that, like, it's, it's Essentially, the patriarchy. Um,

Yeah, no, 100 percent is! It really is!

to think of a different, more interesting way of saying it. But it's not. It's the patriarchy. And it's capitalism.

And so there's this idea that women have a certain place and that there are certain things that they should or shouldn't be worried about depending on what that place is and then you layer on top of that this idea that capitalism makes an awful lot of money out of making people, making women especially, feel bad about themselves.

Yes, like there's something wrong with you. Like, you know. And interestingly, the ultimate goal, however, is not necessarily empowerment. It's to make you feel smaller, like you need these things even more. So, yes, it's, it's It is. And I think there is a lot there. I talk in my book, uh, particularly in the first chapter, it's a bit of a scene setting, a little bit of historical context.

And it is, it's a lot around where do these feelings of shame and guilt come from? Where does this discrepancy between kind of, uh, an everyday body. You know, something, someone who might be a size 12 or a 14 or 16 or 18, you know, someone who jiggles when they go to the beach and their bikini, you know, someone who has stretch marks.

Where is, where is, You know, we feel such a discrepancy between that and what we are supposed to want, supposed to have because of airbrushing, because of the ideal that is perpetuated in society and in media, whether that be film or magazines or on social media of what the perfect body is or what the perfect ideal woman looks like.

And that's so, so damaging for us. And I think particularly as a mom of two girls. I am desperate for that not to happen to them, um, because I was so miserable growing up in terms of my own body image, you know, I, I didn't have, I wasn't kind of deep in a dis eating disorder, but I made myself sick quite a lot on a regular basis.

I hated my body and I just don't want that for them and it's all tied in. But see, that seems like a little bit of a tangent that I've thrown in there, but it's all tied in with that same conversation around who is creating these ideals, who is creating those norms, because a norm, you know, it's in the name should be representative of what is out there.

And the, this, this kind of stereotype of, you know, uh, uh, you know, a certain size or certain way of looking is really damaging to our mental health. Yeah,

about children and body image and understanding and sexuality and things, , there are a lot of conversations, in parliament or amongst politicians and also amongst media, let's call them media, , about what's happening. what our kids should be being taught about sex and relationships, , and what they shouldn't, and this idea of kind of overly sexualizing children by giving them , too much information.

And obviously if you're going through that now , with your daughter, , my son, is 11, , , so like it is, it's starting to become something that they're dealing with at school. , and it just, from my perspective anyway, it just all feels so lacking. Mm

think it's, I think what's really interesting is, and I, and I'm not, um, you know, a sex educator in, in, for, for that level, for, for that age group. So, you know, I'm not, that's not my area of expertise, but, um, There are some fantastic accounts that are out there like sex positive families on Instagram, which is an excellent one.

So if your listeners are interested, that's definitely one to visit in terms of educating more around this area. But it does seem to me that there is a real reluctance, not necessarily from the schools, and it will depend again from school to school, from borough to borough and so on. as to kind of how they actually implement the guidelines. But there, there is a bit of a reluctance on the part of families, I feel, and parents to actually engage with this as well, because they feel like it's not, you know, it's not the school's place to be doing it. But then you ask, well, are you going to do it? And they're like, well, no, no, no, it's far too soon.

And I'm like, okay, well, your kid's nine. You know, if you haven't spoken to them now, uh, uh, uh, at this point, you know, about where do babies come from, what are you doing with your life? Um, we are a very, we've taken a very sex positive approach. Not necessarily kind of intentionally putting it out there.

This is what we're going to do, but just as happens naturally because I do believe it's really important for us to have those conversations very openly with her. Um, and with our other daughter as she grows older as well, because, The, the whole problem with this kind of stigma and shame around women's health and our bodies and periods and childbirth and that kind of lack of knowledge comes from the fact that we never talked about it, honestly, in the first place.

And I want it to be normal for her to say vagina, you know, we are being, you know, You know, censored on those words, vulva and vagina and periods and, you know, cervix on in everyday conversation because people think it's like slightly odd. It's a bit like a rude word or a swear word. I have heard stories of teachers saying, no, no, no, you can't say that.

That's a rude word. It's not a rude word. It's a medical term. Um, and on social media and, you know, so the more we have those conversations and normalize it. Yeah. I would much rather she's talking about her vulva than her, you know, twinkle, you know, from purely from, you know, if you really want to get granular about it, you know, from a safeguarding perspective,

Mm hmm.

she needs to be able to describe her different parts of her body and own her, the different parts of her body.

So that she can say if something goes wrong, God forbid, um, and actually further down the line, so that she knows where her boundaries are, so that she knows how to express what gives her pleasure and doesn't, and you know, what she needs from a relationship. And I think, you know, boys also need that about their own bodies and, you know, about the opposite sex's bodies as well. Because You know, otherwise how are we going to have that open and honest communication and connection with each other? You know, and I think, you know, people just don't sense that as parents sometimes. They don't understand that that's what it's about. It isn't about sexualizing your children. It's about letting them know how their bodies work.

Yeah.

When in due course it does become about sexual activity, then they are going to have the tools that they need to express themselves. in that context?

Yeah. Mm hmm. And I think that the problem is that they're not separating those two things. Like, the people having the wider conversation are conflating those two. Those two things, like the knowledge of the body and the sexual activity, and like the two don't necessarily go hand in hand, like at any point, but you, yeah, you need to be able to see them as two distinct, different things that people need to know about at different times.

absolutely. And I would argue, look, kids can have these conversations anyway. They're going to explore anyway, you know, they get to 14 and they're not, you know, raging hormones, trying to like kiss each other behind the bike sheds all the time. Then, you know, I would be very surprised. So to give them that information and knowledge beforehand is really key because otherwise they're going to get themselves in trouble.

You know, this is, This is part of the reason that teen pregnancies happen, because people don't realise that that's what sex is. Because they haven't had that conversation, or, you know, maybe they didn't realise that that's where their vagina is. They thought it was like something else. You know, there's, there's all sorts of misunderstandings that can, that can take place.

And it's quite easily solved, guys.

Yes. But then what ends up happening is you get women. And mothers who do not understand their bodies and how they work, and that has implications for their relationships with their partners, it has implications for their relationships with themselves, for their rehabilitation that you were talking about earlier, after, um, after pregnancy and after birth.

Like I, I remember sitting through, I went to a business networking meeting where, , a female physiotherapist , was doing a presentation. And , I learned things about how my body works that I'd never, ever come across before. And I consider myself a fairly like educated kind of knowledgeable person.

And I'm like, yeah, no, I had no idea that it worked like that. And that makes so much sense.

But like to get to, yeah, to get so what I'm 40 now to get to my age and not essentially know things about my pelvic floor, things about, um, my own anatomy. It's just, it's bonkers.

yeah. And, and it's, and it's true. I think a lot of people are experiencing it as well. When I, you know, the, the kind of, Postnatal journey for me, obviously with the mental health that I mentioned earlier, but, but there was a real physical component of that in terms of my rehab as well. And I experienced very painful sex postnatally, didn't really know where it was coming from, went to my GP.

They basically, Sent me around the houses for a good 10 11 months, kind of putting me off, lots of time in between appointments. They checked for infections. Um, that didn't come back with anything, so they did it again just in case we'd missed something. Um, you know, then sent me to a gynecologist who just looked at my vagina and my vulva area.

didn't touch it. I was like, well, okay, fine. Um, and then had an internal ultrasound, which came back negative, but because of the painful sex aspect was obviously incredibly painful for me to have that as well. Then went back to the gynecologist. And at that point, I think it was like 10 months after my first referral, she like actually touched what I now know with scars. And that was, I mean, it was really intense. It was really excruciating. And she was like, Oh, well, there's probably your scars then. And I was like, right, well, Should we not have, you know, had a look actually at my vagina properly 10 months ago when I was saying it's really painful, you know I've had an episiotomy, you know I had a traumatic birth with forceps, so this is internal grazing that was at fault here as well as the episiotomy scar.

You know, and, you know, knowing what I now know, because it was only at that point a year in that I found myself a women's health physio because it was a recommendation from a friend saying, Oh, you know, you could be really interested in this lady for your work with, you know, the retreats, not necessarily relevant to my own personal story.

But I met Amanda. Who I feature in my book because she is such an amazing font of knowledge And I met her and she was explaining to me and it was exactly your experience there my my mouth dropped open because I was like Why has no one ever told me this before? Why? It only now makes sense what I've been experiencing, and if this is the case for so many people, why are we not saying, even if you can't refer me as a GP, even if you cannot refer me on the NHS, just tell me about a women's health physio and say you might really benefit from going to see one.

Because most of us. If, if we, if the problem is that bad, you know, and we can afford it, we will go and see them rather than waiting to be referred. So even knowing about it, or once you know about it, then getting in touch with one or reading a book about physiotherapy or going on to, you know, YouTube and finding some videos that might help you or whatever, all of that will help rather than just ignoring the problem because, oh, well, you know, it's painful sex, you know, that's not that much of an issue.

Well, it is because. It's affecting my confidence and my own sense of identity, my pleasure, and also, of course, my relationship with my other half. Like, not that he was ever in kind of pushy in that way, but we couldn't connect on that really intimate level. And so that, of course, that affected us as a couple as well.

And, you know, further down the line we did really nearly get divorced and that was up due to a whole bunch of other things as well. But obviously that, you know, is a key component of it. So I think the ramifications of, of these issues are often way bigger than we realize.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think on like a social scale, when you kind of, when you pull that out to the number of people that it will be affecting, there are implications in terms of employment, in terms of healthcare spending, in terms of caring responsibilities, , yeah. All that kind of stuff. Yeah. Having those things affect your confidence, affect your relationships, affect your overall health and energy.

So things like, people who have been to the GP with ridiculously heavy periods and just been told that it's just completely normal and they're losing like a ridiculous amount of blood like every month or constantly and then they're not, they're not able to kind of, you know, It's just a horrendous word.

They're not able to perform properly at work, like they're not able to kind of be involved in society, all that kind of stuff. It's just, it sounds, when you start talking about it initially, these individual things feel really, or seem really small, and then you look at the, the implications, and actually they're not at all.

think it is, it's that marginalization of women's health as an issue. And of the woman, because, you know, we are seen as other, we are seen as the, um, you know, outlier to data, uh, where it is collected at all. Um, we all love Caroline Criado Perez's work. This book, Invisible Women, listeners, if you haven't read it, go and do it now.

Um, it's just incredible how little we respect 50 percent of the population and The, the male body, the male system, male health is seen as the norm. And women's health, because it's more complicated because our bodies go through such hormonal changes and changes every month with our periods and menstrual cycles because we change with, um, you know, the menopause, uh, because we change in the postnatal period and pregnancy, all of those things.

are seen as, as outlying things, but 50 percent or over 50%, um, of the population is going through them on a daily basis and that's not outlying. That's normal. You need to be respecting that in data collection and in the way that we kind of progress in terms of healthcare and drugs and, you know, even dosing guidelines.

Because at the moment it's all wrong.

Yes. And the argument seems to be, consistently, that it's just too hard. Like, we can't test on women because they're too complicated. Like, we can't.

Because they don't, there's no steady state. It's like, well, no, but if none of us have a steady state, then that is, that is normal. You need to get, you need to do hard stuff.

This is it. Like, we've sent people to the moon. Like, there are rockets flying all over the place. , we've done complicated things. Like, why It's the only reason we've decided this thing is true.

this complicated thing is too complicated is because it's to do with women and they'll generally just like put up and shut up and get on with things.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's that deprioritization, isn't it? And I think, you know, it's interesting with some conversations I'm having at the moment, it's not that you can't solve this, it's that you don't want

Yep. Mmhmm.

And that's, and that I think is really key in terms of this conversation.

Oh definitely. Okay, so you obviously spend a lot of your time while you're online, um, talking about things that are taboo topics.

Yeah,

That, that a lot, that, I mean, that some people wouldn't be comfortable talking about, but also, as we've discussed, that a lot of platforms are not hugely comfortable with. How do you, how do you navigate that?

It is really tricky and it's a real landscape that it takes a lot of time to understand, in itself is actually a little bit odd because you would feel like when you are talking about things in a medical and health context that saying things like vagina is fine.

I've actually just started a campaign called Censorship which is all around tackling social media censorship of women's health and sexual well being content and we ran a survey, um, which has now had over respondents, which is amazing. Um, but at the time we'd had like 50 organizations who contributed to it and nine out of 10 of them had experienced censorship on social media in the last 12 months and four in 10 of them had had that happen 10 plus times.

Follow me.

Um, and it's for things like saying vagina or showing a nipple in a breast cancer campaign. Um, A ridiculous example, actually, is that particular campaign where this charity had to replace the female nipple with a male nipple, and then it was fine. Don't even get me started, this is for a whole other conversation.

But yes, utterly enraging. Um, and people are being censored all the time. And that could be, you know, having content taken down or banned or your account being blocked or like locked for a while or your account being deleted. We spoke to, um, a leading, uh, female led, uh, period care brand and they have had their ad account deleted on multiple occasions.

So that's not just. saying no to an ad and blocking that ad or banning that ad, it's deleting your whole account. So all of your learnings, all of that money that you've spent on the platform is, is gone. And they've lost half a million because of that. And You know, that's a, small estimate.

Yep. Mmhmm.

Um, so there's that, there's that end of the scale. And then there are people who are self censoring because they know that this is taboo. So they're like, well, you know, It is really something that I would like to talk about, but I'm probably not going to talk about it as much as I want to because I know that it's an issue and I'm worried I'm going to get banned.

Mmhmm.

And there are people like me who've had their accounts restricted, so they're reach restricted, which people sort of refer to as shadow banning, which basically means that you are not allowed, you won't be seen by anyone who is not already following you. And usually, it doesn't say this, but it then impacts.

how many people within your followership it, it sends you out to as well. That's obviously just a kind of anecdotal observation. Um, but yeah, that's, that's definitely the case. And for me, it happened because I'd posted a body positivity reel of me dancing in a bikini. and sort of jiggling and going, it's fine, you can jiggle, like, it's not a problem.

You don't have to have the perfect body to get in a bikini, you know, love yourself. And that was restricted. And I just thought, what is the world coming to when Playboy composed a naked lady on a horse? Um, you know, fully sexualized for the male gaze and I cannot post something and that's completely fine and I cannot post something about body positivity or a comment.

One of the other ones was a commentary on the fact that at your six week check, probably the one thing that you'll get asked about is contraception and that's the only question that they ask about you or your mental health or your physical health or whatever, um, didn't use. Didn't use the word sex in that at all.

Um, didn't talk about, you know, anything that was untoward. Didn't say vagina. Um, and that one, that one got restricted as well. And I just find it really odd and incredibly hypocritical. Because male focused brands, or men's health brands, or brands that are, or brands and creators that are focusing on, kind of, the male audience, are getting away with absolute murder.

Oh yeah.

And ones that are focusing on women's health and women's sexual well being are being stymied at every turn. And, yeah, it's It's just another example of that kind of double standard and I would love to be able to change this. Um, so we're just at the beginning of our campaign, but it does, uh, it has, I seem to be, uh, been very well received so far.

So hopefully this is, uh, the start of a, um, you know, good, good, long and positive journey.

I'm very excited about it. I'm going to get you, um, yeah, hopefully back on to talk about,

Yeah,

about it specifically when things are a little bit further along. Um, I'm also, can I put the survey link in the

Yes, absolutely. I would love that. Yeah, we are still collecting data. So if there are, if there's any of you listening that have struggled with this, you know, we would really love to gather that information. We are also going to be gathering actual examples as well because, you know, when people get blocked, what are the, what are the things that are being banned?

Um, what are people's experiences with the review process? Because the review process is terrible and doesn't seem to have any consistency at all either. Um, so yeah, so, so lots of different things. So yes, please, please do get involved.

And if people, um, if people want to get involved other than filling in the survey, if they want to come and find you, um, what should they do?

Uh, so I am on Instagram, despite my big rant about them. Um, and my handle is at breathewellbeing. Um, the website is breathewellbeing. com and you can find everything about the retreats on there, and my book, and you can book a one to one with me, um, to kind of chat about where to start, because that is, you know, Quite often the most difficult bit because you kind of don't know, you know that something's wrong But you're not really sure what and you don't know who to ask for help So that's kind of where I come in as well.

And I'm your friendly agony aunt And I can point you in the right direction But yeah, I would love I'd love love you guys to interact and to get involved with any of the things I do It's just Super important, I think.

Definitely. On that, we do agree. Cool. Okay. Um, well, uh, that was fascinating. Thank you so much for, um, for coming and talking to me about all of it. Um, and yeah, I'm excited to follow censorship and, um, yeah, and see how it goes and the conversations that we end up

I know, me too. Let's cross our fingers, hey?

Yes, very much. Some people will see sense.

Yeah.

Cool. Okay. Well, thank you very much, Claire. Um, yeah, enjoy the rest of your day.

Thank you. My pleasure. Lovely to chat.