How to do good and do well, with Sarah Fox

Today’s Soapbox is for anyone who’s ever tried to make things better, but found themselves wondering if it’s really making a dent. (I know that’s been me at times.)

My guest, Sarah Fox, has spent years at the messy human end of change – community arts, small charities, and now coaching and supervision for leaders. She’s an accredited coach, coach supervisor, trainer, and action learning facilitator, supporting socially minded leaders, founders, freelancers, and organisations to clarify their vision and lead with impact so that they and the people around them can thrive. She also hosts the Do Good and Do Well podcast.

Together, we talk about what it really means to do good and do well without wearing the martyr badge. We dig into questions like: what does “good” even mean? How can we swap heroics for collaboration? And how can people with resources turn that quiet pull in their chest into real action – whether that’s through money, time, boards, policy, or the way they lead and coach.

If you’re tired, a bit cross, and still wildly hopeful about what this world could be, then this one’s for you.

So sit back, get ready to be fired up, and listen to Sarah get on her soapbox.

Sarah's Links:

Email Sarah at andsarah@sarahfox.co.uk
Connect with Sarah on LinkedIn
Follow Sarah on Instagram
Sarah Fox Coaching

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Transcript

1:18

Today's soapbox is for anyone who's ever tried to make things better and then wondered if actually it's making a dent. I know that's been me at times. My guest, Sarah, has spent years at the messy human end of change, community arts, small charities, and now coaching and supervision for leaders. We talk about doing good and doing well without the MARTA badge. We look at how to question what good even means. How to swap heroics for collaboration, and how people with resources can turn that quiet, pull in their chest, that quiet pull in your chest into real action. Money, time boards, policy coaching style leadership. If you are tired and a bit cross. And still wildly hopeful at what this world could be. Then this one's for you. So sit back, get ready to get fired up and listen to Sarah on her soapbox.

Peta: 2:23

Sarah, thank you for coming on the Soapbox podcast. I'm really to, to.

Sarah: 2:27

oh, it's, it's so nice. I was just saying she wasn't either I, I feel like I've bit this ages ago thinking I had loads of time and then suddenly it was the 25th of June, so I'm like, oh, hello. It's really great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Peta: 2:40

Not a problem. And we're here and it's all good.

Sarah: 2:42

We're here.

Peta: 2:43

cool. So for people who do not know you have not come across you who have stumbled onto this podcast, um, I dunno, after walking in the woods for six months or something, which sounds lovely. Um, can you, can you tell them a little bit about who you are, what you do, and how you got here?

Sarah: 2:59

Yes, I can. Hello, I'm, um, my name is Sarah Fox. Um, and I suppose it's probably easier if I start with how I got here, because that might tell you what I do as well and what I care about. Um. I, uh, have spent most of my career in the not-for-profit sector. Um, so I, well, I actually began as an FE teacher, um, as a performing arts teacher, and I did that for about three, three years. Had a terrible, terrible experience of leadership. Um, and, and that was partly why I left, but I also left that because it was around kind of when X Factor and Pop Heidel were really kicking off. So we had lots of students coming who wanted to be famous, and what I really noticed in myself. Although I can articulate this better now, is that I just felt like I wasn't really making a difference, and I'd always wanted to, even from when I was very young, wanted to do something that contributed. I did a lot of volunteering when I was young. Um. Uh, uh, my dad was disabled. He had cerebral palsy, so from a quite early age, I had this sense of social injustice because I saw how he was trying to navigate a world that didn't. Um. Wasn't for him, wasn't built for him. Um, and I came from a very working class background, so I had a real sort of sense of inequality in many ways. So I, I left the teaching job because I felt like I wanted to, um, able to do something that meant more my, my. Degree is in drama, hence being performing arts tutor. Um, and I wanted to use the arts and creativity to help people tell stories about themselves and to help them. Um, I wanted them to access the arts as well, actually, because the drama had been a massive, uh. A massive impact. It had a massive impact on me. Shout out to Mrs. Burke, um, who was my junior school drama teacher and, and saw some potential in me and. Anyway, so I left that role and started working, uh, for a housing association, working in so-called deprived neighborhoods. Um, running lots of different art workshops, building an art department, um, and uh, helping people to work with artists to, uh, talk about their stories in a creative way, but also just to connect with the arts and, and be part of it'cause, um. The arts sector isn't always great, still isn't always great. I mean, I'm, you know, this is 25 years ago. Isn't always great at getting out to everybody. Um, did that for a while. And then the hous uh, the housing crisis happened and unfortunately the arts was the first to go really in the housing association. They tried to keep me on. I did some weird things, but I was like, Hmm, this isn't. I don't wanna do this. So I was made redundant. Then ended up working for a really small arts charity based in Kent, which is where I'm from, which is all about how to use arts and kindness to, to create, to build kind more caring communities. Um, so I did a lot of work with artists and with organizations like the National Theater and Manchester Museum, um, to, to be thinking about. Uh, we did a lot of work around kindness, about hope, about love, um, uh, optimism. You know, we were trying to say like, we all do good things there. There are so many, there's so much great stuff. We always wanted to think about, uh, not what the deficit of a community was, but what was, what was, what was existing, what was already there, and how could you build on that? Um. Fast forward 10 years having small children. My dad had passed away and I was just in this moment of on paper, my job looks amazing and I do love my job and I do love my colleagues, but there's something missing. I feel like there's something else that's here for me. And I was fortunate enough that I could leave that role and just faff around for a couple of years. So I said, I was like, I'm not gonna do anything. Ended up growing. Vegetables and an allotment. Volunteering for the PTA, becoming the chair of the PTA becoming chair of a small, uh, dance organization here in Kent. And I did a coaching qualification. And what I realized when I did that was actually I've been spending my whole career creating spaces for people to think about who they are and what they want in the world, and, um, helping them to share those stories. So coaching really, uh, supported that. And then I decided to set my, my own business back in 20 20 19. I sort of made the decision, but I didn't quite. Uh, launch it until the week before lockdown in 2020. Um, so the businesses look very different to how I thought it would look, you know, because we've had a global pandemic. Um, but it, what I do now is I. and help people to think about what is that thing that, that calling, some people might say, the pull of purpose is, is one of my phrases. How do you identify that and then what do you do with it? Um, so I, I'm a coach. I do one-to-one coaching. I do group coaching. I also, I absolutely love coaching and I really believe in training and accreditation. So I am, uh, a trainer. I train new coaches, and, uh, I'm a coach supervisor. Um, I also facilitate a lot of work, uh, around with, with leaders, um, and thinking about how they can really think about the vision, the difference they want to make and what it is they need in order to get there, which might be some training around difficult conversations or some, or coach. Young approach, um, or wellbeing even, you know, how do we look after ourselves in all of that? So that's a very long explanation, but I, I'm hoping it sort of shows you how Yeah. How I got to this, this point.

Peta: 9:32

No, I love long explanations because yeah, they're full of lots of interesting contexts and I'm all about context. Um, thank you for that. That, I mean, it sounds like, yeah, it sounds like quite a journey, um, through a lot of different places and different things that gave you a huge amount of. Skills to, to pull into the, what you do now. So yeah. Really, really interesting. Um, so for people who come on this podcast, um, we talk about what the thing that gets them really riled up is the thing that will see them talking someones ear off. Um, at a business networking meeting, um, with the other person looking slightly scared, um, or the soapbox that they jump on on a regular basis. So, Sarah, what is your soapbox?

Sarah: 10:19

I mean, there's so many.

Peta: 10:22

I get that a lot.

Sarah: 10:23

I'm sure everyone says that. I was like, which one should I talk about? Um, I, the thing I really get very frustrated about, one of the things I get very frustrated about is I feel like in the world there are more people that could be doing more to contribute to, to make this world a better place. So, um. You know, I, I've worked a lot on the ground. I've worked a lot with different communities, different groups. I've worked with the traveler and gypsy community. I've worked with disabled young people. Um, I've worked with homeless young people, just yeah, lots and lots and. In that time, and as well as the coach and the stuff I do now, I have um, seen many people who don't have very much give everything. Um, you know, they are driven by bigger than self thinking. They are driven by community. They are driven by social injustice. You know, whether that is something that they have experienced themselves or. Perhaps more like me noticed and being part of that, and, and they really want to do something about it. They really want to make a difference. And that can often lead to poor financial wellbeing. Poor emotional wellbeing. Lots of sacrifice. Long, long hours, not a lot of pay. Um, sometimes feeling like. Actually, what difference am I making because I'm up against so much. Um. You know, I've just been noticing recently that the access to work cuts, for example, has, uh, there's an artist called, um, Jess Tom, also known as the as Tourette's Hero. Um, and she relies on her access for work massively, and it's been cut by 60%, which means she put a statement out to say, I don't think I can now. Carry on being artistic director of Tourette's Hero because I do not have the support to enable that to happen. And the work that she does is incredible and her team do are incredible. Or there's, you know, we've got a local charity here in. Than where I live, called Power of Women, power of Women than, and they've just announced their closing after 10 years because they can't get the funding. It's a small group of really committed women who want to, um, you know, talk about women's issues. And they do that through, through Arts again. Um, most of my examples are arts'cause that's my background. Um, or the, the, there's a, um, a youth center just around the corner from me called Pi Factory and the Kent Counter Council are wanting to sell that land, sell that building, um, because they need to get some money. And so, you know, they, this again, a small charity campaigning, trying to show the social value of the work, really important work that they do there. And so I see, I'm seeing all of this happening, all of these resources being taken away from people who are trying to make the world a better place. And it comes at a personal sacrifice quite often. And I see so many other people who have resources, who have a abundance of resources. You know, they have skills, they have knowledge, they have money, they have time, um, they have privilege, they have social capital, um, creative capital, like. All of this stuff they have at their, at their in their hands, and I don't see them doing anything with it that could make the world a better place. So they're kind of doing well for themselves. And there might be a kind of, um, one of the things that does this sort of, especially in the coaching world and people are like, coaches have gotta money.'cause if they make money, then they can make a positive impact, which essentially means giving money to charity. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't give money to charity, but I think you, if you are able to create these amazing, successful businesses, what could you do if you really put your mind to a cause that, that could, you know, really use that. Um, so I see people doing well, and I don't necessarily see them doing good, or I see people doing good and not doing well. Um, so my, my, uh, quest, what I'm really trying to do is think about how can I support those who are doing good and not doing well to do, to do better for themselves, put themselves in the picture. But also, and, and I think I'm getting more and more along these lines, how do I access and help people who have all of these resources and might have some fantastic ideas. You know, they look and they go, well, you know, if only people would do it this way, but they like, don't do anything with it. Um, uh, so yes, that, that would kind of. Yeah, that's what's frustrating is I feel like there are so many people in this world that have so much it, and it's not just about the money, but it's about the, the creative thinking, the, um, ability to spot things that can change that entrepreneurship. They have that and they're not doing anything with it. That could actually solve so many social problems in our communities, in our towns, our counties, our country, the world. I Right. That's it.

Peta: 16:20

Excellent. Right. Done, sorted. I love that for many, many reasons. Uh, firstly because it kind of vibes with, yeah, with what I've done for most of my life. I have a, a similar background in terms of. Uh, kind of growing up, but also in terms of working with, working in, in the community, working with young people, all that kind of thing. Um, seeing a lot of individuals give a lot of themselves when they don't have that much. To give and that having an impact on them. Um, and then also having moved into kind of the business like marketing world and seeing the different discourse that surrounds kind of all of that. So yeah, I, I love that completely. Um, I wonder if we can like, take this in two halves then, like, I wonder if we can spend some time talking about, um, how you can, how you are helping, or ideas that you have to help people who are doing good. Do better. And then perhaps we can kind of like round off by talking about how people who are doing well can maybe do more good and some, some ways that kind of, that you support them in doing that or some ways that they can kind of, that they can think about doing that in their own lives. How does that sound?

Sarah: 17:40

That sounds great.

Peta: 17:41

Okay, cool. Let's start with the first one. So people who are currently doing good, who, like you said, um, they are giving a lot of themselves when they don't have very much to give and that has an impact on them. Um, what kind of, so what, what are those impacts that it has on kind of them individually or maybe on their community that you've seen?

Sarah: 18:04

the, I think the biggest thing I, I have noticed in the last, in the last 10 years or so, I dunno what that correlate with, um, is, uh, people feeling like, what is the point? Am I actually making a difference? Because yes, I can get up in the morning and I can go and work with this group of people or, um. You know, what, you know, whatever it is that, that they're doing. But actually this system, there are so many things that I'm up against fund, you know, small charities, the amount of time it spends to write a funding application. I once wrote, I had to write a five page funding application, which took me probably about a day to, uh, to get 500 pounds from our local council.

Peta: 19:03

Fly.

Sarah: 19:04

So, you know, you are, and the, you know, it's, it's a really tough environment. So I think there's that, there's a real kind of existential, but this might feel a bit extreme, but like crisis in people sometimes, which is like, I feel like I've dedicated my life to this thing and I, and I'm seeing it get worse. I'm not, I'm not seeing any, any impact here. So what, what on earth am I doing? And then that's hard to feel motivated and to, and to keep going and for it to be sustainable. Um. So I think there's that sort of inner, inner kind of feeling. Then I think there's a lot of poor financial wellbeing. Um, because what I have noticed, uh, and of, of myself and of others is that. There's quite a lot of people pleasing as well. So like some of that, some of that wanting to do good is also coming from, I wanna feel like I am a good person who is making a difference. I wanna be liked. And so with what that often means is I will say yes to everything. I won't charge enough, I won't chase invoices. Um, I will. I'll say, this will take a day to do and I'll spend five days on it. Um, you know, the overwhelm, the overworking, the overstretching, and then never feeling like you're getting anywhere because it's all, it can all feel quite surface level. Um, and, you know, on just wellbeing generally, like not looking after themselves, not. Not getting to the gym because of the long hours that they're working or, or probably not being able to afford a gym. Sometimes, you know, not going for walks, not taking care of themselves because actually that does, that's not what drives them. Um, you know, these are generalizations. I think these, these are the patterns that I notice. Um, you know, and yeah, just kind of, they're not thriving necessarily.

Peta: 21:11

Yeah.

Sarah: 21:13

So that's what I, you know, uh, those are some of the impacts I, I see.

Peta: 21:18

Mm-hmm. And how do you. How do you think these, these sorts of people who are in these situations, having that like almost kind of, yeah. Existential moment of I'm putting all this work in, I am sacrificing myself on the altar of these, of these principles and these values that I have and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. How do you turn that around and help them do well? I don't, not necessarily you personally, but also you

Sarah: 21:51

But we, we are, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I do think there's an individual responsibility. Um, and that's, I guess, one of the things that I help in terms of one-to-one or group coaching. Um, you know, in terms of what, of what? Bit of this is my stuff. Like what bit of this overwhelm? Always saying yes, not having any boundaries. What some of that is gonna be my stuff. That only I can change. So that might be, I mean, we, I think we need more therapy, access to therapy, access to, particularly for people working on the ground supervision, um, you know, helping them to think about what part they're playing. So I think there's an individual piece there. Um, and I think, uh, there's also, there's, so there's, and then, then, and there's also something about those. Understanding what it is I'm really trying to change and recognizing there's a brilliant quote by Oliver Berkman in his book 4,000 Weeks, which I'm not

Peta: 22:57

I love that book

Sarah: 22:58

because I can never remember quotes, but he says something like, um, it's only when we release that sort of. Um, that psychological weight that says we have to do everything, we have to be everywhere. So only when we release that, I think he calls it a fantasy, that we can move on and actually focus on the few things that count. And so I think there is something about us. There are so many issues. If we, if we talked about all the things that need to be solved right now, we would be here for about 20 days, actually probably about 20 years. Um, so, um, one person on their own. Can only do so much together. We can do a load more, but that's another thing. Um, so actually really focusing on what is the thing I'm trying to change and what are the things that I can do to, to make that happen that are in with, within my control. So sort of,'cause I think a lot of the overwhelm comes from I can't, there's so much stuff that I can't do anything about. So how do we help people to look at what they're already doing brilliantly and that they, and impact that they are making and what are the things they could really focus on

Peta: 24:18

Mm-hmm.

Sarah: 24:19

and work on? Um, and then, you know, and then we need to change the system.

Peta: 24:24

Sure. Also that yes.

Sarah: 24:25

And also that, uh, which, which, which looks like I think more and more people talking about the, what they're up against, which can also come at a personal cost. So, you know, it is, yeah. Yeah. I dunno if that answers your question.

Peta: 24:42

It does. Yeah. No, that was great. Thank you. I think I, so I had a really, um, really interesting conversation with Tracy Johnson on the podcast, quite a few episodes ago. Uh, and she was talking about, um, this idea that we have, that you have to, in order to be a good person. Whether you would call yourself an activist or or like, or a helper or kind of this kind of person who does this kind of work. The assumption is that, that you have to have some kind of like martyr mindset that you, that you have to, you are sacrificing yourself on the alt alter of these values that you are putting yourself last in the kind of grand scheme of things because what you're trying to do is more important. Um, and I think that that. There needs to be an element of that for somebody to want to, put themselves out to a greater or lesser extent, for the benefit of other people or the benefit of changing the system. But I, but Tracy and I talked about how actually that having that martyr and kind of like idea is this overwhelming, um, framework of what it should be means that you are not resourced. Enough to do the work as well as you could. So you're not often not making as big as impact, as an impact as you could have done. Um, and it has the additional consequence of making it less appealing for other people to join the court. Um,

Sarah: 26:17

Hmm.

Peta: 26:18

means that then you end up doing more of the work because there are, that there are fewer people to do that work. So it's really interesting you're talking about. Both the individual and the systemic things that could, that could change.'cause I think some of it is that concept of self-care. And I, and I say that as this is somebody who comes from that, this is my calling. I shouldn't be paid that much for it because it's not about the money and it is gonna be hard and there isn't gonna be much kind of reward because it's not about that. Like I come from that kind of background. Um. We self-care is kind of considered something that you, that is not important. Whereas actually, if you can do good and do well, then you'll do more good. And also like more people will go, oh, I can be involved in this and, and not completely burn myself out.

Sarah: 27:12

Yeah, I think that's why it can be so tied up to identity. You know, I am a good person on my website. I say something like, um, I am, sometimes I'm not kind because I feel like there needs to be a bit more nuance in our thinking about ourselves and each

Peta: 27:28

Mm-hmm.

Sarah: 27:29

Um, and yeah, that, that, that. What then other people see. I mean, I do think social purpose work is really hard. It's messy, it's unpredictable, it's not linear. Um, it does require, and IIII use this word lightly. Um, it does require resilience, but that doesn't mean we have to put up with all the. Can I swear on this podcast? Yeah, All the shit either. Um,

Peta: 28:06

I always forget to tell that. Tell people that the beginning.

Sarah: 28:10

is that, yeah, like am I allowed? Um, you know, and that's like, that's, am I allowed, that's part of my identity is like the good kind person who's very thoughtful, right? So that shows up in those places. Um, one of the other things I wanted to say, which is, is. Slightly, it is linked, but I think sometimes as well, what we think is good isn't always good. So there's sometimes there's a lack of questioning, who's good is this? You know, who are we? Who are we really trying to support here? Is it that we are trying to make ourselves feel better? Or is it that we are really trying to make a difference? And there's a whole argument around altruism and, you know. Um, is it okay if, if our doing good also helps us as well in some way, you know, fulfills our sense of being and who and who we want to be. But I think sometimes what I see is a, a lack of, um. You know, really questioning what, what kind of good is that? Good Is that, so, you know, so I see people saying, oh, we, we wanna make an impact and you know, we want to, and I think well, do the people that you are wanting to impact wanna be impacted? Like. There was one, there's one coach I I won't name names. There's one coach who talks about this tidal wave of impact and I always felt so uncomfortable with that because I thought like a tidal wave is quite forceful, isn't it? It's like gonna come and knock us all over. Like, do we really want that? And I, so I think for me, there's also, for all of us actually, is that reminder of just. Just because we think something is good, because we are coming from it from a particular experience, a, a societal narrative, whatever that is, let's just like take a breath and think, you know, who is this really for? And, and, and what is, what is that impact that we want to make and do the, is it a really, is it an impact that is really needed or something that we've just decided is needed?

Peta: 30:26

Because otherwise you end up in like the paternalistic kind of colonialist. Um, like Victorian charity thing where like, this is what we think that you should be like, and if you're not, then you're not doing okay. And so we will help you. Again, I keep doing bunny ears on a audio podcast. It's not helpful. Um, it's just a reflex I can't help myself.

Sarah: 30:47

I know I did it as well.

Peta: 30:49

Um, like yeah, we think that your. We think that your life is terrible. Um, and, and we think if we come in and and make it this way, then it will be better. But actually that's not necessarily what you want or need.

Sarah: 31:01

yeah. In the art sector, there was a real shift, uh, in kind of collaborating with communities rather than going in and doing arts to people. So one of my early experiences of arts was a, as a. On my counselor day was a bus that came and, and they did a workshop, which was sticking pasta onto a bit of paper and then spraying it with glue and glitter.

Peta: 31:25

Lovely.

Sarah: 31:25

that was kind of my, one of my first experiences is of community arts. Um, and I think it's become a lot more, not always, but it's become a lot more interested in actually how do we have these conversations together. I'm slightly going off topic, but I

Peta: 31:41

That's okay.

Sarah: 31:42

I think it's really important for anyone who's got that sense of purpose, whether you've got the resources or not, to be really interrogating some of your thinking around that, which is, you know, in part what I help people to do. So, you know, sort of challenging. Okay, but what does that mean for the people that you're trying to support or mean for that cause or, um, let's just think about it first and also speak to people, collaborate with others who are already doing this.

Peta: 32:12

Mm.

Sarah: 32:12

Most, most of the time there was someone somewhere already doing something about this, but how do you connect and that, you know, come together and do something. Yeah.

Peta: 32:26

That, I mean, which leads us nicely to, so it wasn't a tangent at all. Uh, which leads us nicely to the second half of the conversation. So the people who are doing well right now,

Sarah: 32:36

Yeah.

Peta: 32:37

how, how can they do. More good. And like one of the things that we've just talked about is, yeah, not by coming in and, and being more paternalistic and deciding what people need, but like, what, uh, well, how can they, how can they do more good in a good way?

Sarah: 32:57

So. I think there are people out there. We're all, we're all, you know, we're human beings. We're all different. And there are some people out there who are not driven by community or universalism. They might be driven more by. Security and, um, money or, but often it's not, the money bit is about the security. It's about, you know, so, so I think one of the things that people can do it, if it is just notice, like I, I see, I hear a lot of people talking and think like talking about their work and they're a bit like, hmm. You know, it's like, it's all right. You know, it pays well, but, and if you notice that kind of feeling, then there's something that's telling you something. So I think the first thing is notice what's happening for you when you are thinking about your career, past, present, future, um, and then. Uh, think about how even like the smallest step that you could take to do that. You know, there are so many different ways we can use our resources. Of course, yes. We can, um, give money to charity. We can set up monthly, um, donations to causes that we really care about. You can speak to, you know, if you've got. A, a lot of money. You can speak to a a philanthropist advisor who can support you and connect you to places like, you know, the community foundations who then distribute the money. So there's the kind of, there's the finance stuff. There's lots and lots of ways that you can use your money to support others. Um. Even, you know, when you work with a philanthropist advisor, they will help you to understand the, the causes that matter to you and that that, that you feel you can make some difference in, that excites you and, and you know, it, it's understanding what, what is this pull to purpose that I'm feeling. Um, but it can also, if it might not be financial, it could be that you. Join a board, um, become a trustee, or you volunteer for a local organization because you've got time on a Saturday, or, there are just so many things what I, but it's about understanding what matters to you, what you want to have happen. Maybe talking to peers, advisors, coaches, hello. That would be me to help you put a plan together. Um, and then doing it, but not, like, not ignoring that feeling. I often do an exercise. I, I did it last week on a, um, I was on a, I was part of the National Society of Education Arts and Design Conference, and I ran a group, mass group coaching session. And for this instance I talked about, you know, imagine you are at your retirement party. What is it you want to be able to say that you did? What is it that you can say, I help make that happen? I move the needle in some way. Um, what are you gonna be really proud to say? Um, sometimes I, I would ask people what they wanna say on their deathbed, like, I'll go to that point'cause I'm quite interested in those existential questions. So I think, you know, really thinking about what, what is it I really want for my life and is. Just doing it for me enough when actually there's like this, I keep, and we're on audio, but I keep kind of pointing to my chest, my heart space, and going like that, that feeling that there's something more that I could be doing more. And that could be in your community. It could be policy, you know, getting involved in policymaking. As I say, it could be finance, but you've got all of these resources. It's almost like putting together a chart that says, this is what I really wanna do and this is what I care about and what matters and, and what I think I could do, and these are the resources I have, so how can I match those up? It's like getting a plan together. And then doing it, because often as well, if you are, if you have created a very successful business. Successful financially or successful size-wise, or, um, you know, you've solved a problem, then you have got, there's something in you that's motivated that, um, where you've got those skills, you've got that oomph, you've got that tenacity, you've got that resilience. So it's like, how can I use all of that as well? Those sorts of skills to, to solve these problems that we have.

Peta: 37:57

that's very cool.

Sarah: 37:59

So everyone just don't do that.

Peta: 38:01

Okay. Um, what do you, and, and probably this is my last question because I could talk about this for hours and hours, but like we, we, yeah. We've both got other things to do. Um, what do you, um, see as the things that hold people back from just going and doing that?

Sarah: 38:27

So I think it comes down to those, some of those values around, you know, actually I'm really driven by family and security and I don't want to sacrifice any. I don't wanna sacrifice my own family in this, you know? Um, what if I stop paying attention to that bit over there and focus more over there? What happens to me? What happens to my family? Um, what happens to my security? Um, I think there's fear. I, you know, a fear of not knowing how sometimes like. And I think that's where, um, well, I'm trying to lean into this, which is where I can come in handy because I have done that not-for-profit type work for such a long time that I can support that. Some of those fears about what it might feel like look like, be like, um, maybe, you know, probably because we're human fears of failure, fears of being rejected, getting it wrong. Um, is there anything else? I wonder, I wonder if also there's a, a societal narrative as well. You know, I even, I fell for it. Like, if you are successful, like the successful people and really do this thing, so, um. I think there is, depending on what world you move in, you know there are norms, there are societal norms, and if you are, um, in a particular peer group who you know, it is about what car you drive and what house you in. That affects our feelings of belonging, right? It comes back to that fear of, of sa feeling safe. So yeah, I think there's probably a lot of things that that stop people. And yeah, so knowledge of the sector or the thing that they want to do, fear of it, it really impacting themselves and their family. Um, and probably lots of other stuff that I haven't thought of either.

Peta: 40:44

Okay. So how do you, how can you help people with that? So say, my lovely listeners are listening and going, um. I'm, yeah, I'm doing pretty well. I would like to do more. Good. Um, yes, I have a whole bunch of those fears or things holding me back that Sarah's just mentioned. Um, how can you help them?

Sarah: 41:06

So in the, I would say the thing I. Do well is those one-to-one conversations, whether that's a one-off or longer term. But in the first instance, you know, ha, being a listening a. A thinking partner. Thinking partner. That's probably a better way of saying it about this issue that you are feeling like you care about. And, and thinking through what are the things that you could do? Um, even if that, you know, you might already be at a level, let's say on a scale of one to 10, you might already be like, yeah, I feel like I'm doing good, like a six. But you might wanna, you might wanna interrogate that a little bit and you want someone to help you think through that, or you might wanna push it up a bit. So if I'm already at six now, how could I then get to a seven and eight? And how could I do this? Doing good stuff really well, so that it's coming from a place of intention and there's an interrogation of it and really thinking through and getting to the facts rather than, you know, thinking about what I'm scared of, of getting wrong or whatever. Um, I think the other thing, I haven't really talked about this much, but. Yeah, so, so I'm, I, I would describe myself as a thinking partner to help you get through that. But the other thing is I am really passionate about coaching and I think that coaching can change the world. And I think the more we can get coaching into leadership styles, and the quicker we can do that, the better. Um, so if people are thinking about how can I do more listening? Rather than talking and telling people what to do, how can I do more listening? How can I help people to help themselves? Um, then I would, I, we, I could help them because I run a coaching for leadership course, which we've got coming up in January, but in hybrid York, um, and online. Um, because I think there is something about how do we as leaders. Because, because we do need more leadership, little L and Big L, how do we, um, become better listeners so that we notice in ourselves what we want, but we are listening. We're listening to what other people we are witnessing other people. Um, yeah. Yeah.

Peta: 43:32

Great. Okay. Um, and how so if, if people with listening would like help with all of those things, how can they find you?

Sarah: 43:40

Well, I mean, I'm kind of spread everywhere.

Peta: 43:45

Are

Sarah: 43:45

Um, yes, um, I, I, I'm mostly on LinkedIn, which is at Sarah Fox. Coach. You can find me mostly there. Um, I also have a podcast called, you're Not Gonna Believe This. Do good and do well. Thank. Nice. Um, uh, and so people can, and, and that's where I talk to people who are, uh, trying to do good and do well and yeah, get stories around that. Um, so you can listen to that. Uh, but also you can just. Come and send me an email or connect with me on LinkedIn, um, and say hi. Uh, and it's always just, it's a conversation to start with, isn't it? So, and I'm always, if people are interested in this stuff, very happy to, um, connect.

Peta: 44:34

Fab. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. This was fascinating as I knew it would be. Um, yeah, thank you for sharing and for giving people lots of things to go in, think about and do.

Sarah: 44:45

Thank you.