The Soap Box Podcast
The politics and marketing podcast for business owners with a social conscience.
Talk about sticky issues, learn how to weave your values into your marketing, and hear from real-life business owners working it all out in real time.
The Soap Box Podcast
How to build systems that match your ethics, with Jacki Hayes
Today on the Soap Box, I’m talking to Jacki Hayes, a systems geek for creative service businesses and someone who’s quietly building a very different kind of company. Jacki helps creative service providers stop duct-taping their systems together and build businesses that actually work, with more ease, clarity and flexibility.
In our conversation, Jacki makes a simple, slightly spicy point, the kind I like. Running a business is political, not party political, but human political. The way we pay people, the policies we set, who we hire and how we hire them all send a message about the world we’re trying to build.
Jacki shares the story of how a single job ad – one that offered a real living wage, proper time off and care-led policies that most founders are told are “impossible”, especially at the early stages – completely shifted what success looked like for her. And how that moment went on to shape the way she now helps others build their businesses in a totally different way.
All that advice about maximising profit, reducing payroll and the whole “hire the cheapest VA you can find” vibe is the complete antithesis of the businesses Jacki helps people create. She lays out why that model doesn’t sit right with her and how you can build business systems that genuinely match your ethics. This is very much her real talk approach to values-aligned business, the kind she also explores on her podcast Here’s What I Learned.
If you’ve ever wondered how to grow without losing your values, or how to let your values help you grow, this one is going to land. Jacki’s a joy, so I’d invite you to grab a notebook for this one and listen to Jacki get on her soapbox.
Jacki's Links:
Jacki's upcoming shop, "The Toolshed", a pay-what-you-choose shop filled with tools she's actually used to run her own business. In addition to being full of accessibly-priced tools you’ll actually use, 25% of what comes in (revenue not profit) is donated to organisations supporting Black reparations, Indigenous communities, LGBTQ+ rights, and reproductive justice.
Jacki's website: www.jackihayes.co
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Today I'm talking to Jackie Hayes, a systems geek for creative service businesses and someone who's quietly building a very different kind of company. In our conversation, Jackie makes a simple, slightly s spicy point. The kind that I like. Running a business is political, not party political. It's human political, the way we pay people, the policies we set. The help we hire and how we hire it all. Send a message about the world that we are trying to build. Jackie tells a story about how a single job ad with a real living wage, proper time off and care policies that most founders are told are impossible, especially when they're building changed. What success looked like for Jackie and how that helped her help others to build a business in a completely different type of way. All that advice about maximizing profit and reducing payroll and, and all those kind of things. You know, the hire a cheap VA from the Philippines vibe is the complete antithesis of the businesses that Jackie helps people build. and she lays out why and how you can build business systems that match your ethics. if you've ever wondered how to grow without losing your values or how to let your values help you grow, then this one is gonna land with you. Jackie's a joy. and I would invite you to grab a notebook for this one. and listen to Jackie get on her soapbox.
Peta:Jackie, it is lovely to have you on the podcast. I'm very excited for our chat.
Jacki:I can't wait to dive into all things Soapboxy with you.
Peta:That's what we like. Cool. So for people who do not know you, um, and are discovering you for the first time on this podcast, um, can you give them a little bit of a rundown on who you are and what you do, and how you got here?
Jacki:Yeah, so Jackie Hayes. I am, uh, in the United States in Iowa, right in the center of the country in the Midwest, and I am a systems geek for creative entrepreneurs. Specifically service providers, like website designers, brand strategists, copywriters. I, uh, got here in a very weird and windy way like most of us do. Starting off with being an educator at a science museum, um, working at a university, taking care of graduate students, doing it security, and. Like everyone almost COVID hit and everything had to change. Um, I started out as a VA and found out where my clients wanted me, was to help them be a thought partner and to think through the strategy of their business instead of having me do the day-to-day things. So that is where I am right now.
Peta:Ab, yes. I'm not a systems person, so finding people like you who can do really, really easily and really natural. Um, yeah, is great because it is not me. Um, I wish I was, I would quite like to be a systems person. I think it would make life easier. Um, but then I would've to follow the systems
Jacki:That's, that's the hard part. A lot of people can create systems and then they don't follow them, including myself, because you know how you are when you're a service provider. You, you tell your clients to do all of these things or help them decide all these things and then you don't have the time to do them or the inclination to do them. This your, your chance.
Peta:Totally. I, um, I updated my portfolio for the first time in about two years, um, a couple of weeks ago. And I'm like, I'm always telling my clients like, give people your testimonials. Tell them what you've been doing. Keep your website update. And I'm like, la, la, la, la, la.
Jacki:Exactly
Peta:Not quite ashamed putting it out online. It's like there's new stuff on there, but there, we go.
Jacki:not a single SOP in my business at all.
Peta:I love that. That's great. Oh. So along those lines, um, for people who have not listened to this podcast before, um, I would like to ask every one of my guests what their soapbox is. What is the thing that you always find yourself talking about? Talking people's ear off, like wherever you are, wherever you go, like the thing that winds you up or that you get excited about. So Jackie, what is your soapbox?
Jacki:And you're asking like there's only one. Um,
Peta:you can have like many.
Jacki:yes. Uh, I would say the one that's probably most relevant right now is that, especially as someone in the US but along the lines for many people in other countries, is that owning your own business can be a political.
Peta:I love that. Okay, let's dive into that a little bit more. Um, tell me why you think owning your own business is a political act.
Jacki:I, I knew I wanted the level, uh, the measures of success to be different in my business. I knew I wasn't wanting to scale until I was a seven figure, you know, business owner. Um. A lot of that was money mindset issues, and it, it just felt, I don't, it just didn't feel well. It felt icky to think of those measures that everybody else says. Then I ran across a job posting, um, by the Chaney app. Um, for those who don't know it, it's uh, an astrology app, uh, made by Channy Nichols and her team and the job posting. Was for, uh, basically an entry level position in the company, but every single one of her employees starts at a minimum of$80,000 a year. Every single one of her employees, um, get unlimited time off. Everyone who menstruates gets menstrual leave, they have unquestioned, uh, time off for, uh, domestic violence. If you need to go to court or you need to move out, things like that, they will support you through that. Um, they, they even give you a stipend for. Your time off so that if you take time off, you're not just stuck at home, you can actually go do something. So you get like a$1,500 stipend for that. They pay for professional development and it doesn't even have anything to do with your job. That's fine. They'll pay a certain amount for professional development. And I looked at all of that and I thought those are all the things that people and the big corporations are telling us you can't do and be successful and make money. You can't, you can't give people unlimited time off. They'll take advantage of it. You can't, you know,$80,000 for an entry level. That's just ridiculous. Um, menstrual leave whoever thought of that. Um, so you wouldn't hear those things. That traditional advice was not to do those things. PTO of two weeks here in the US and she's successful. Her business is a seven figure business. That was a eye-opening thing for me that like. I could just do everything in the way that felt good to me in treating my clients and my team as whole ass people and still make money. Then, then it clicked that if I did go ahead and decide to do seven figure business, it didn't mean I had to keep all the, the money. I didn't have to become this person who, you know, had 90 planes showing up on an island for my wedding. I could then use that money to do more good, to pay my team, more money to take part in reparations, uh, to the black and indigenous communities to donate to causes that I believed in. So my measure of success now sort of includes the seven figure mark, but it's not for myself personally. I've decided what it is that I need to live comfortably and the life that I wanna live. That's my target. And then anything above and beyond that is to make the world a better place because sadly you need money to do that.
Peta:You do. Yes. Annoyingly so, but yes. Okay. So that's, that's so interesting. Firstly, I love the fact that, um. That you were inspired by a job posting for another company that you weren't necessarily gonna go and apply for? Um, I think they kind of, yeah. I hear so much on LinkedIn specifically about job postings that are terrible, or, um, job postings that are exploitative or job postings that are just. Like, I would like, um, a magical unicorn person who does 85 different things that they've spent five years studying each, and they need to be an expert in them. And then I will pay them two pound 50. Um, yes. So I hear lots about rubbish job descriptions. I do not hear a lot about brilliant job descriptions. Um, so yeah, so I love that that was what kind of inspired you. Why, why do you think more people don't, more companies or more founders don't do that?
Jacki:I. I think one thing when you start a business, you don't know what you're doing most often and so you just follow the advice of other people. Um, and you may just get stuck in that trap. And if you're in a capitalist culture, you're swimming in the waters, it's really hard to imagine what it would be like to make money. Be comfortable. And not exploit others, because our system here, it's a toxic, uh, capitalism that is 100% built on exploiting labor of somebody else. We don't see a lot of examples and it's, you know, representation matters. That also means seeing business models that are succeeding in measures that you also value. Um, then you can start to dream that it's actually possible for you and there's ways to do it.
Peta:Yeah, totally. I think when I, when I kind of came into the lovely waters of the online. Business world. The model for being, for making more money and for scaling and for bringing on help and, and employees was very much a like$10,$15 an hour va from the Philippines because you can, you can outsource it to them and that's what they charge. So you can just get away with paying them that and then you can keep more money for yourself. That was. Yeah, that was the overwhelming business model that I saw in terms of that and the idea that you would be able to, um, over, over deliver. Like we talk a lot about surprising and delighting our clients, but I think the idea that you could surprise and delight your employees is like, yeah, it's something that just doesn't get talked about. I don't think.
Jacki:No, I don't think so either. And even today, uh, in some of the circles that I've been in, people are like, oh, I really need some help. Or some of my clients already have some team members and. Everybody I'm hearing is saying, well, find the cheapest that you can find. So, you know, it doesn't, you know, cost you that much and there are, it's not as if there aren't great VAs in the Philippines. And yes, their cost of living is lower than it is in the United States, but to me, to specifically look and a certain region so that you can get cheaper help is still exploitative. Maybe you shouldn't be getting help unless you can actually afford to pay them a living wage in the area that you live in.
Peta:Ooh.
Jacki:that means maybe you only pay somebody for two hours a week to free up two hours of your time because you only have, you know, whatever it happens to be in your area, um, then that's what you have to do. But don't just go looking for cheap help because you know you need help, because that's exploiting somebody.
Peta:I think that's a proper mic drop moment. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe you shouldn't be outsourcing if you can't afford to pay people a living wage. I think that's, yeah. I think we could just stop the podcast there and be like, that is your takeaway from
Jacki:and there goes all of Upwork. Like all of Upwork has to come down.
Peta:Well, like, because it is interesting. So Upwork was where I started, um, like back in the grand old days of September, 2020, where, where I had 15 years of experience in a career that I had. Like put all of myself into that. I was very qualified for and very experienced in starting something completely brand new with no real experience, no portfolio, no kind of testimonials for clients, none of that. And I started an Upwork like blogs for$10, which was exploitive, like it was like hours of work. And I did it so that I could build that portfolio and then no longer kind of, no longer charge that. But yeah, there is an element of why would I pay more if I can get it for cheaper. And I think it crossed like not just in business and in outsourcing across like everything was that, like the conversation that around that surrounds fast fashion, the conversation that surrounds food prices, the conversation that surrounds like international flights and like everything, the overwhelming assumption is if I can get away with paying less, why would I not do that? And that's seen as like if you. If you buck against that, um, it's almost like people think you're a bit of a chump, like you're being taken for a ride. Mm-hmm.
Jacki:And and something that you're saying there, you know when you said when you started working at Upwork and you were writing blog posts and for$10, and often people like call that you know. Paying your dues. Like you just have to do that when you first start out. And so it becomes this cycle because everybody thinks that's what you have to do when you first start out. So everybody does it. So everybody who's explaining the folks keep doing it. You know, it's, it's like when I was on the dating apps and men would send these, you know, messages and I'd be like. Somebody obviously gave you a positive response at some point for you to keep sending these kind of messages, so it's it's very much the same, and if we keep participating in that, it's going to continue. Also, we still need to get paid. So where is that line where you're willing to cross to still get paid and feed yourself and you know, make your house payment, whatever it happens to be. And you also saying, no, I don't wanna be exploited. And that is a very fuzzy line and it's different for absolutely everybody.
Peta:Yeah, no, that's totally true. So how do you work that out and find that line in your business?
Jacki:I, you know, I think for myself as. As far as like having clients work with me, I try and find different levels of payment and different levels of support. If you want a lot of my time, you will have to pay for it. I have 20 some years of experience doing systems work in lots of different places. Um, you need to pay for my expertise and my time. Also, I can provide you with tools that you can take some of my knowledge and expertise and do it yourself. For instance, I'm putting together right now a pay what you choose, what I'm calling Tool Shed. It's all the tools that I have used in my business and with my clients. It's sitting in Google Drive. Nobody else is touching it. Why not make it available and why not set a pay what you choose amount on there? And if that's zero, well then I will trust that you needed it. To succeed in your business, you thought this would be helpful, but you don't have the money for it right now. Eventually, maybe you'll work with me later, or maybe you'll pay$5 for the next tool. It doesn't matter. It's just sitting in my Google Drive anyways, so I might as well put it out there. And I also decided with this, pay what you choose, a percentage of the revenue, not the profit, but the revenue will go to a cause. Every single month I'm going to pick out a cause that's important to me and that amount of revenue, I, I probably about 25% will go to that cause. So folks can get on there and decide whatever they want. That I need this tool here. Um, I'm gonna give you$25 for it because I know 25% of that$25 is going directly to a cause. I also believe in.
Peta:Oh, that, that's quite a radical political act of trust. And generosity in, in a business and a system that doesn't see that a lot.
Jacki:I was inspired by, uh, Nicole Antoinette, uh, years ago. She turned her business model into a pay what you choose business model, and then she sat down and she went through the whole process. Us with us of her thinking and how she was doing it and how she was educating the people who were already working with her, her followers on her podcasts. Um, she had a substack, a paid subscription. So she shared like, this is how I'm educating people about what pay, what you choose is why I'm doing it, et cetera. Um, and after that model had been going for a while for her, she came out and said, you know what? I'm making the same amount of money. Because some people pay less and some people pay more, but in the end, the average ends up being exactly what I probably would've charged for it in the first place. And I have heard that from many, many people who have pay what you choose, models that you end up likely making right about what you wanted and needed to make in the first place.
Peta:That is really interesting. And also, again, quite a big trust leap in, in yourself and in your, and in your client base or your audience, I think. Yeah. Okay.
Jacki:and for me I was like, it's still, it's just sitting in my Google Drive.
Peta:Yeah, yeah. No, I get that completely.
Jacki:Yeah. Yeah.
Peta:I, that makes perfect sense. But when you put it up against. The general business advice, especially in like the online world with service providers and things that we're in, the general advice in that situation, and I'm trying to steer away from using the word gurus now, but like essentially, um, is that there's, that there's gold that you could be making money from sitting in your Google Drive, so you should be making money from it.
Jacki:Yeah, I could have a subscription model where I drip these tools out to people who are paying me$9 a month or something along those lines. Or I could introduce people to the way I think and act and the tools that I make at a price that they can afford, whether that's zero, 50, whatever it happens to be, and build a relationship with them. And relationships are what it's all about. If you want a successful business, you have to have relationships and people have to trust you.
Peta:Yeah. And in doing all of that, you are modeling a style and a, and a way of doing business that you want to see more of, to give people that other option in a, in a similar way to how those people who began with pay what you choose inspired at you and showed you another way of doing things.
Jacki:Mm-hmm. Exactly. Exactly.
Peta:That's super interesting. Okay. And what has been the response when you kind of talk about this with people? Like is it, for example, with your clients, when you talk about, um, changing that perspective or those assumptions around bringing in help? Because obviously if you are, well, not obviously, but I would imagine that if you are working with people who are looking for help with, with systems, then their businesses are at a level where they either have teams or they are. Scaling up to kind of to build those teams. So how do they respond?
Jacki:it is very interesting because a, a past client of mine, uh, we worked together for almost a year. And I came in because she had followed the advice and she had scaled and she had built this team and she was hitting, you know, trying to hit all those measures of success that she was told, um, she needed to hit. And she was miserable and she was constantly trying to figure out how she was going to pay her team, which meant she was never paying herself quite often. Um, and then. You know, struggling. If there was a slow month, then she couldn't pay her team and then feeling the guilt of that. And eventually she just has scaled back now where I'm not even one of her support members because I helped her simplify her business enough that she actually doesn't have a team any longer except an occasional assistant designer. And she, I just talked to her on Voxer the other day and she is loving life right now. So she's doing all the things that she wanted to do. She's taking vacation because when I. Uh, first started working with her. She'd go on vacation and she'd take her laptop with her and she would work the first six hours of the day in the hotel room. And the big goal at the start was to let her have an entire weekend where she didn't work on the business and now she's taking multiple weeks at a time away from the business. She's still hitting her measures of success, and she no longer has a team, and her business is easier for her to run. So I just, you know, managed to like not have a client any longer'cause I helped her too much, I guess.
Peta:I, I think there's a level to which like a lot of our service providers do, that we're essentially like making ourselves redundant because with, yeah, we're doing all the good work, and then we're like, well, now you can just, you can just fly, fly away, and you're like, oh, now I have to find new client.
Jacki:Exactly.
Peta:But it is nice. Like it It is, yeah. It's, it's very lovely to, to watch them go. No, I'm good. I, you've given me everything that I need and now I can go on. Okay. And do you ever get any pushback when you talk to clients about this kind of thing?
Jacki:You know, thankfully I have managed to curate a group around me from referrals and folks that are like biz besties, who all have very similar values. So I don't often have the, the pushback because they're already moving in those directions. So if for instance, they have a VA that they're paying, you know, from the Philippines that maybe they're paying$15 an hour or two, yet they're already thinking something's not right here.
Peta:Yeah.
Jacki:Um. And it's not real hard to say, you know, okay, you're paying them$15. That's, you know, that's a lot for them. What would you pay somebody here where you live for the same kind of support, um, and to feel comfortable with knowing that you've given them, you know, enough money that they can pay their bills. Now, obviously when we're hiring, you know, subcontractors, et cetera, we're not hiring them full-time often we are hiring them, you know, for 10 hours a week, 10 hours a month. But then we also have to remember that they're also paying, you know, for their health insurance, they're also paying their taxes out of what. You have given them. It's not their take home pay that you're paying them. So you really kind of have to start thinking about all of those things. But thankfully, most of the folks in my sphere have already started questioning some of those practices in their business.
Peta:Yeah. No, that makes sense. I, I really like, I've spent most of this. Conversation because I think when we, when we talked previous to this podcast, um, you mentioned the, the job description for Chaney app, and I have like just been thinking how can I go and work for, for the CHA app? Um,
Jacki:Oh, I've applied multiple times, so
Peta:Because now my dream
Jacki:that one would be wonderful to work for. Come.
Peta:I am a past subscriber, um. It's brilliant and has been incredibly inspiring, but yes. Cool. Okay. So, um, in terms of, um, in terms of modeling this kind of like this different style of business and making this, making this political statement essentially with the way that you run your business, how do you weave that into your messaging when you are kind of out and about on social media or um, or in emails or when you are, when you are promoting your services?
Jacki:You know, I'm not as good at that as I would like to be, quite honestly. So, you know, words, people would probably help me with that. Um, exactly. Uh, I, you know, I have some messaging at the bottom of my email newsletter. Um, I get on the podcasts, and this is a topic that I have talked to about on other podcasts. Um. So, you know, it, it's a, it's on my values page on my website. Uh, when people onboard with me before they sign the contract, it specifically says, some of the money you're gonna pay me is going to go to these causes. If that's a problem, we should probably not work together. I can find somebody else for you. Uh, so those are some of the ways that I, um, talk about it, but I should definitely be talking about it more. Um, especially in the political climate that we're in right now. Sharing where our values are, uh, is incredibly important, not only to amplify the messaging so that change happens, but also to attract the right people to us and detract the wrong people.
Peta:Yeah. No, definitely. I think so. What difference do you think it would make if more people adopted this kind of business model or perspective on hiring?
Jacki:You know, quite often I work with a lot of individuals and most of the people that are in my sphere, uh, identify as women. And it's not uncommon that I hear women. Talking about this and wanting to have these types of businesses. And one of the things that I know is the statistics are out there that when you invest in the women and help women build businesses, money goes back into the community more than when you invest with men. Um, I don't know the exact numbers, but I know like it's been out there, fair trade companies, all the loans, all of that. Talk about that. So I think. It is happening. Um, but we're also the same people who tend to be quieter. We don't shout as loudly. Um, we don't want to bother people. We don't wanna, we don't, you know, I've already talked about it twice. Isn't that enough? I don't wanna bother them. So I think it is happening, it's just that we're not being loud about it. So.
Peta:No, that makes sense. I think. The type of, I do think that the type of people who would be receptive to this kind of business model and this kind of idea are also the people who, and a lot of whom I work with, um, got into business because they wanted to help people, not necessarily just, and sometimes not even at all, because they wanted to make money. Um, and I find that they have sim similar hangups that you just mentioned when it comes to marketing. Um, they're like, well, I don't, yeah, I, I've, I've spoken about it twice in a random story this week, so I can't possibly mention it again on my grid because people will think I'm being too salesy. And I'm like, yes, that's lovely, but like five people heard you, so like, maybe say it again. Um, but that's something, it's a slightly adjacent issue. Uh, but I wonder if, I wonder if this is. This is kind of a bit of a, a helpful tool or would be a helpful tool for business owners like that because it demonstrates how them being, their businesses being more successful, like in, in a more kind of traditional, the more traditional metrics means that they can help more people, like if they can, if they can. Again, scale doesn't feel like the right word, but if they can grow to the point where essentially their business is then supporting a whole bunch of other people and then maybe being able to donate to causes that are important to them, um, and then those people are, that they're supporting are linchpins in different family units, and so all those people are being supported and then money is going back into the community as you mentioned. It feels like it's a way or would be a way of them allowing themselves to be more successful, um, allowing them and allowing themselves to market their business more, to sell their services more. Because doing this means that they can have not only the impact with their, with their clients, but this greater impact as part of society too.
Jacki:You know, when you hear all the, the folks out there who are the. Make this have a seven figure business. All they say is have a seven figure business. Well, they don't talk about what the point is of having a seven seven figure business. And that point is gonna be different for absolutely everybody. For many people who are helpers, like you said, um, it can be to help. Uh, and that comes like down, I think down to like paying yourself first so your bucket isn't empty. Because you can't help people if you can't survive on your own. So pay yourself first. Figure out what that pay is that you need to feel comfortable in your life. Uh, I know Deanna Seymour is somebody I adore and she talks often about, this is how much I need for my family to feel comfortable, to have the thriving life I need, and this is what I budget. It doesn't, I don't need to be bringing in certain figures into my household. This is what I need. Hearing her talk about that was like, okay, yeah, this is what I need. Everything else is bonus. It is to help. So yes, you're right. I think if people can look at it, the point of the seven figures is to help as opposed to to get rich.
Peta:And I think we have just discovered the title for this episode just as we've been talking. Cool. No, I love it. I think, um, I think that there are, I've always thought that there are elements of running my own business that feel political in some way. Um, whether it comes to just making money as a woman at all, um, whether it comes to like using my voice, um, as a woman, um. And also the things that I talk about and the clients that that I help are often more purpose-driven. They're trying to make the world a better place generally. So there are political elements to that, but yeah. But the idea of the idea that my business model could be intentionally political in that sense. Um, yeah, it's a really interesting way of looking at things and I've always shied away from the idea of like running an agency or employing lots of people and I work with subcontractors on, on a fairly regular basis, but, but making, making it any more official, um, I've always gone, oh, I don't really wanna do that. I'm not quite sure how I feel. And it's not really about that, but actually the. The potential and the possibility of making that, of making that bigger impact, um, makes it more appealing, like, as well as the, as well as the charney story. So, Tori Dunlop talks about, um, how she kind of, how she works with her team and how, and, and the impact that that has and how her business is supporting the, like, the families of all these women that she works with. Um, so yeah, it's, I dunno, it just feels. It feels much more aligned.
Jacki:Well, you don't even have to be somebody who wants a team. Like I, I'm not, you know, I'm not somebody who necessarily wants to have a team. I thought agency because that's what I was told. And, you know, I started to do a little bit of that, you know, dipping my toes in. I was like, no, I, I like the one-on-one with my clients. I love those relationships, so I don't want to build that agency. But I can hire all my business friends to help me with my copywriting. If I make enough money, I can have one of my friends do my website. Here's another person that I believe in, and the work they do, I can hire them to be my business coach. So I, while I didn't, don't have to build a team, I can still be supporting people who have the similar values.
Peta:Hopefully. I love that. Yeah. And then, yeah, the, and then their impact, if they're doing their business in the same way, spreads and Yeah. It feels. I, it feels a lot less capitalistic, which is, which is always a good thing, frankly, if we're gonna have to live in the Yeah. Live in the system, then we can make it feel Yeah. More friendly if at all possible.
Jacki:Yeah. More collaborative.
Peta:Yeah. I love that. Jackie that was, um, yeah, fabulously interesting. And, um, I now have to go away and rethink, um, my five year, 10 year plan. So, I mean, thanks. Not, thanks for that.'cause it's gonna take a while, but I'll let you off. Um, so if other people are also going nah, um, or they want to hear more from you about other things, um, where can they find you? How can they work with you? Yeah, all that stuff.
Jacki:The easiest way for them to find me and learn more about the work I do as well as. They can hear me more like on my own podcast. Here's what I learned is to go to my website, Jackie hayes.co. No, E and Jackie. Um, and there is a start here page and it has exactly all the links that they need to either work with me, listen to my podcast, read my blog, reach out to me, talk to me, whatever that is they like to do.
Peta:See that as a system right there just by just the one place that you go, and it's all there. I love it. Cool. Um, yes, I'll put that in the show notes so people can easily find you. But definitely, yeah, go and find out everything else that Jackie does. Um, and go and yeah, go and say hi and reach out. thank you so much for, um, for chatting with me. It was an absolute pleasure. I really enjoyed it. I.
Jacki:Thank you so much for having me.