Life As A Working Veterinary Mom w/ Dr. Cassi Fleming

Welcome to a surprise episode of Questions With Crocker! This one is special as I sat down with Dr. Cassi Fleming at VMX to ping-pong questions back and forth. We discuss our lives as working moms, the struggles of working in the industry, and more!

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Check out Dr. Cassi Fleming's podcast, Vetfolio Voice, here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/vetfolio-voice/id1058677996

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Transcript

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[MUSIC] Well, we're here at VMX sitting in this fantastic recording studio, and I'm joined by Dr. Teneja Crocker. And this particular conference has been such a fun experience because I'm realizing that there's so many people who I've met multiple times over Zoom. You, of course, being one of them, and we've worked together several times, and then so to finally get to sit down and talk in person, that's just one of my favorite things about coming to the conference and just really being able to sit down with people in face-to-face and connect with them. Yeah, it's a little different versus online and the interactions, I think, are we can go a little deeper, and it's just really nice to see people and actually give hugs and actually spend more time talking to them. And one, I'm very jealous of your setup. This is amazing. My studio is not quite the same, so I appreciate you having me on and getting to learn a little bit more about each other and share with everybody a little bit more about us and VMX and just everything that's been going on. Yes, and I have to give credit to the team who designed this studio, but I also have to acknowledge, you have that amazing sign that's behind you that I always love, and I'm like, "Oh, I would love a sign like that." It looks so perfect in the background of your studio. My mom gave me that sign right after graduation from vet school, so long time ago, and I just have always loved it, and so we actually built a house, and I had a plan of like, "I'm putting this on this wall in my office, and every time I walk in the office, I see it." And obviously, she's already super proud and tells everyone, "My daughter's a veterinarian, but it is a nice little reminder of how hard I worked and what we've done to get where we are." I like it. I thank you for shouting it out. Yeah, she'll appreciate that. Absolutely. You're right in the perfect place. I notice it every time. Nice. Well, we're going to do something a little bit different where we're going to kind of ping-pong some questions here and sort of interview each other. I'll be honest, I'm not used to having a microphone turned on me, so we'll see how this goes. I'm going to start off just because that's my safety level is to ask the questions. OK, so we're kind of doing this a little bit on the fly, and the conversation was born out of a conversation I actually had with somebody else around the holidays where I was like, "It's too much. I'm trying to do all of my normal work and then make sure the Christmas presents get here and they're wrapped in, we host Christmas." So as a house clean, as a food-ticking carav, do we have all the things that we need? And I remember texting my best friend, and I was like, "How? How do we get this done?" And the more we talked about it, it was like, "But we just do. We do somehow power through and get all these things to get thrown on our plate done, whether that's the right thing to do or not." So I love that I'm sitting down talking to you about this because we have a lot of commonalities, and we're both working mothers. We have multiple different areas of our careers and a lot on our plates. So I think our conversation here is a little bit too old as that experience, but also boundaries and making sure that we are taking care of ourselves. So I would love it if you would, you're just going to talk about your experience with being a working mom and of course not to take anything away from working dads. I can just relate to the experience of being a working mom. So your experience there and kind of having your hand in a lot of different areas and how you balance all of that. I'm happy we're talking about it because I feel like probably both of us have a lot of, these are the things that helped us because we didn't do it right the first time, right? So you definitely go into things and you are excited about them. I am a yes person, so I like to take a lot on. We both own our own practices. We both have podcasts. We both have children. And so being career women and also moms is a little bit tricky sometimes. And I think especially when you have a lot of different things you're excited about, yes, it can pull you in eight different directions. So I have had moments where I'm like, okay, I feel like I have this kind of figured out and then slapped back into reality that no, I actually have no idea what I'm doing. So obviously we are not experts in how to manage all of it, but I do think sharing our experiences and the things you've been through hopefully will help someone else. And you know, the big thing I hear is from that student and like younger veterinarians are like, but how? Just like how do you do it because school is overwhelming. Life is overwhelming. I can't imagine also adding children to what's going on. So my kind of big moments in my career one was I was an equine veterinarian for five years, loved it. And then I had my first child and I share my burnout story and moment pretty frequently on that, but how to a couple of times where I was trying to do both things like be a great mom and be an equine vet and it just the world's collided and physically I just could not do everything anymore. And I don't know about you, but I had always been like the personality that I'm like, I'll just work harder through it. Yes. Like if I just keep moving forward, like I will, something will break, right? And it'll be like everything else, not me. And I had that moment where like no, I broke instead of everything else. And so that was the first time I had to like sit back and be like, I can't just work harder and realizing kind of how far I could go and push myself in what was healthy was I think the first step in actually starting to put in place like boundaries, asking for help and all the other things. Does that make sense? It does make sense. And I think part of that is like what comes from being a guest person is when stuff gets hard, you're like, well, it's got to be me. Like I'm just not working hard enough. I just need to do more and I'm just not determined enough. And if I'm just a little more determined, if I'm just work a little bit hard, if I just give a little bit more, I'll get there. And eventually it all piles up and exactly like you said, we're the ones that break and it's not, it's of course not healthy for us, but you know, as we're, as we're relating this to being parents, like, that's not the example I want to set for my daughters either to say, just work harder until you break. Yeah. And I always get the question of like, how do you do so many different things? And I try to be really transparent that like I don't do so many different things. I have a huge support system and network and group. So kind of back to you, what support systems have you put in place for you and the ability to kind of do all the different things that you do? That's a really good question. I think it starts with clear communication, what your goals are and what's important to you and that that goes for, you know, the family system so that, you know, my husband and I, we have clear expectations from each other of, you know, where our priorities are and what's important and how we're going to make these things happen together and realizing it's never 50/50. Yes. Oh, that's such a good point. Yes. And just go over us coming to that realization of, you know, sometimes you're going to be busier, sometimes I'm going to be busier and that's equally important. I also think clear communication in the different things that I do, you know, do in the podcast and the recordings and things like that, the nature of being a better anarian, sometimes emergencies do come up. And so being able to say, okay, this is what you need. This is what's on my plate. How can we meet in the middle and get everything done? I really think it comes down to being clear about what it is that's important to you in that moment where I have probably fallen short is just being clear with myself of where my priority is lie. You know, in that moment, I think because I'm trying to do things for other people, it's easier to communicate that. But when it's me turning back inward and saying, I just need this for myself. Maybe that's where I'm not being honest with myself. I'm still sometimes in that mode of like, no, I can just do it. I can just work a little bit harder. I can just, you know, get up a half an hour early or something like that. And I do have a really great support system. The other thing is my house call clients. You mentioned we both own practices. So mine is a house call practice. Clients are really supportive. I've been really lucky to, you know, kind of cultivate this client group where if I do have a kid that has to stay home sick from school or, you know, have an emergency come up or something, being able to call and rearrange things on the fly and a mutual respect for each other's schedule and time and what needs to be done has been really helpful. It is really helpful and it's interesting. I had an old vet tell me that you can train clients like we believe we can train pets. You can train your clients also. So setting those like very clear expectations priorities like right off the bat, I think helps us as veterinarians who also want to be present for those things that you can't plan for. Which having children you realize how much you can't actually plan for. Yes. And control you don't have. Supports system for me. I actually am really lucky. My husband works from home. So he does a lot of the childcare and helps out a lot, especially when I travel. And then my sister lives around the corner, my mom lives next door. So I have a group that I can call on because I do end up staying like sometimes at the hospital. There might be a pet that I needed to like stay longer with or something happened and I have to wait until they can fix something, you know, so there's only so much you can do to try to plan and be strategic about it. But you have to also have those other layers in place and knowing when to ask for help is key. Absolutely. Absolutely. And knowing when you can't do it anymore, you can't put this on your shoulders. You need to reach out to somebody else. Yes. And you mentioned staying late at the hospital. You in addition to owning a practice also work emergency. So how does that kind of crazy schedule work out? How are you balancing having, you know, a normal hours, you know, business hours type of clinic and then also working emergency? So I've structured it a little bit that the hospital that I own, I don't actually work in every single day is a general practicing vet. So I'm the owner and I have veterinarians that work at the hospital. And then I work some days, but not every day. And then my emergency shifts, I work overnight and I work 13 hours overnight, but those are sprinkled in with everything else that I do. And I have learned I can't do as many overnight scenarios I used to. Like I've gone a little older, which is frustrating. Yeah. I've done an overnight every now and again, like, oh, I can't do this. I'm more experts. Yeah. I used to just like do a ton and now it's like two, maybe three. And then I know I need like a really good rest. But sometimes the 13 hours turned into 14, 15 hours if there's an extra surgery or something. So I really always plan that the next day, there's like nothing major that I need to be present for because I know that things happen in the yard. And then I do have the group of people that can help get my kids or go to activities. And that makes a huge difference. Just trying to set it up well for all the things that are going to happen at some point in time. The biggest things you have to realize is like you can have a perfect plan. And if you work in veterinary medicine, something will go wrong and something will pop up. And I do think we have this interesting dynamic that's happening where people are trying to set more boundaries. And then you have kind of as older veterinarians that are like, but the pets don't know that we have the boundaries and we want to help them. So what is the balance, right? Being available and staying and doing the emergency surgery that really has to be done to save a pet. And then also being home on time for being able to see your kids for A, B, or C. And so I think that's something I still really struggle with. I've been of that for quite a while and I still don't have it all figured out. And everyone kind of has a different ability to handle those things. So have you ever had a moment where you really felt like I had to prioritize being a veterinarian over my family? And was it because of a pet patient or have you done a pretty good job of saying, I'm going to stop. And I go home, I can say no, even though you know that it could affect a pet's life. Does that make sense? It does make sense. And I don't think anybody would say that I'm good at setting boundaries and saying no and making prioritizing, you know, getting home and stuff like that. And I don't say that to be like, no, I'm not not martyring myself here. It really is something that I struggle with as well. And it's very comforting to know that you struggle with it too. Like euthanasia is a big thing, especially because in a house call that, you know, we get really close relationships with these clients and I can think of one example where I knew there was a pet needed to be euthanasia. Like there was no doubt about it. It was time and I was not going to be available until later in like basically after like 8 pm because I needed my husband to get home to take care of the kids before I could go. So I think by the time all was set and done, this client was okay with it, I don't think I made it over there till like 9 30 or 10 o'clock. And really was that absolutely impacted the next day, but you know, I was like, this is important. I have to be there. I feel like I've gotten better at saying I'm not available. I can't do it. But it's come from a place of feeling like I'm burning out like I'm going to break if I don't say no. And I don't know that if that's like the healthiest place for that no to come from, I think you need to kind of explore those boundaries. And that's where I talk about like having that honest communication with myself, like what is the limit? And knowing ahead of time where to say no because you mentioned planning and you're 100% right with kids and veterinary medicine, the perfect plans will go a right every time. But I have learned that you can't just lean into like, well, it's all going to explode anyway. So there's no plan, right? You have to put some sort of plan in place. And I think I'm not good at planning, but I've worked on it quite a bit in, you know, the last few years. And I think at least having some plan in place facilitates those boundaries where you can say, I know I have this, this and this and makes it a little bit easier when I do have to kind of draw that line and say, no, I'm not available. I can't come do it. But no, I'm usually the, you know, I will figure it out, I'll try to get it done. Let me make the phone calls and do the things. I am too. And I think I've had to realize that like the younger generation of veterinarians are actually a lot better at setting boundaries and saying no. And sometimes it's hard for me to say like, oh, like you aren't willing to stay longer to do this or, oh, you, you're, you're saying like, I'm done at my time. And I respect it. But I also am trying to kind of find what is that happy medium. And I think it's something everyone has like a different thought in their mind. And as long as I can go home and say like, I help the pets and also be present for my family, then that's my balance. But I appreciate that other people have stronger boundaries than I have. And I think that's something you develop like in your career as you go along of like what is your comfort level for saying no and how frequently do you say it versus not saying it. So, you know, in my practice, it's me, myself and I. So I work in and on the practice. It's one of my biggest fears when I think about bringing in somebody else to work or something like that, which my practice is not, you know, at a point where I would do that. But that's a fear of mine of like having different boundaries and different stopping points. So as a practice owner, how do you navigate those conversations with somebody who may have different boundaries than you do? That's a great question. It's not easy because I know that I am a successful veterinarian like financially and just skill set wise because of the hours I put into it and how much I've done and seen, right? So to have people who are coming into the profession, especially younger, who haven't really developed their skills, but then they also like don't want to stay and do an extra surgery, don't want to. I really had to mentally understand that like not everyone has the same capacity for the hours they work and they're going to be a better veterinarian if they recognize that in set boundaries. So it has been a process to talk about it and my big thing is kind of around like how we compensate what we do as a practice owner, what do they need to feel valued? But then also like what makes me feel like, okay, you're leaving and you're leaving maybe a little early even. And I'm okay with that because this is how I compensated you and like I feel comfortable with it. And I also know that there's some people that might see less appointments, but they end up actually making more because they spend time like talking to people and really explaining things. So it doesn't always equate like working harder, doesn't mean working smarter. And so that's been a process to understand that too because I came from equine, which like 60, 80 hour weeks and you just grind, right? And that's how you do it. And so it has been like an evolution for me of understanding, I think people are more self-aware and they know what they need to be successful. And it doesn't always mean that they're going to maybe grow as quickly in their career or their skill set, but they're still going to be great. And I have to be a little more patient, but also these days like everyone's trying to hire, everyone's trying to keep veterinarian. So if you want to be competitive, you have to be understanding and you have to have the conversation and set expectations, but you also have to realize it's going to be different if you're an older practitioner from when you were a vet. I think that's what gives associates and things some longevity is that that communication, that understanding, that realizing that boundaries are different. And I love that you bring up having that working harder doesn't always mean working smarter, because especially as a house call vet, there's a lot of time that we put into those appointments and their long appointment times and we're discussing all kinds of different things, really taking a holistic, holistic with a W-approach here and not to say that that's not happening in the clinic, but it's just a longer, more relaxed conversation in that environment. And so sometimes, if I'm time limited, I get frustrated because I'm like, oh, there's so much more I could dive into. And you're right, like it does from a business perspective, translate into sometimes a higher ACT or more recheck visits that you're doing, which does ultimately benefit the practice. And a lot of it, I think, comes down to leaning into some of our creativity that we naturally have to have as veterinarians. And now we have to have this from like almost a human resources perspective of, you know, how can we accomplish your goals and accomplish practice goals and accomplish my goals? I would say that as a non. I don't have an associate or anybody that works for me. A tip I actually always give, like young veterinarians or vet students is if you want to have a family or if you want to travel two months out of the year or if you want, you know, like whatever it is that you need and that you really think will kind of change how you practice in the future or you'll have to make adjustments or accommodations for, like I would be up front about that in the beginning during a job interview because I really think that like, as a practice owner, I want to know what are those things that matter to you and what are those things in the future we're going to have to come to terms with and like figure out now. And some of them say, well, what if I don't get the job because I want to have kids and I'm like, why do you want to work somewhere? Yeah. That doesn't want to hire you because you want to have kids one day. So I do think that is something that just should be like a conversation starter for people who are on the job hunt or are coming out of school just to have the open on his conversations of like what you need. And that actually leads into one of the questions I got from a follower. So oh, that's exciting. Yes. So I thought I would ask you. There was quite a few questions about kind of being pregnant and how do you navigate that as a veterinarian? And so Emma Hunt wanted to know what accommodations did you need during pregnancy and how does your clinic respond? So I don't know if you were pregnant as an associate or if you worked for somebody, but I'd love to hear your experience. Yeah. It was honestly, I was very lucky. I had fairly easy pregnancies. I was a very crabby pregnant lady. Like I hated being pregnant. I can't imagine being pregnant. Oh gosh. At all. It was, I was, I had a knot over here like someone. Oh, no. I was, oh my gosh. Like it was just not my favorite time of my life. I love my children dearly. As a matter of fact, it was kind of funny when I got pregnant with my second daughter. Like I hated being pregnant my first daughter, but then I was like scared right. I'm like, oh my gosh. Am I going to like love my baby? No, I love my baby. She's wonderful. So then when I got pregnant the second time, I'm like, oh, I hate this and I was so open about it. But I did not, I was lucky. They were fairly easy overall. I didn't really need a whole lot of accommodations. It got harder of course to like get down on the floor and do some of those exams. So I mean, if anything, the pets maybe had to accommodate me a little bit more because having a big dog on a table is not generally their favorite thing in the whole world. And then afterwards a mask and surgery like that. You know, I didn't, I didn't do as many surgeries when I was pregnant. I talked to my ob about it and he was like, you know, this is what the data says and based on what I was doing, he wasn't really worried about my exposure. Unfortunately, I have two healthy daughters and they did fine with whatever exposure I did have. We're not giving pregnancy advice. We are not. We are not. We are not. We are not. We are not. We are not. We are not. We are not talking about heart attack. Yes. Just our experience. I think the hardest thing was though like, like those emergencies where you're like, I need a state late and do the surgery. You know, if there's a day and you're the only one there that can do it and you're the only resource. I remember doing an amputation. I was pregnant and I was on my feet for a really long time and it took me like a couple days to feel normal again. That was probably the most memorable experience of it being kind of a mixed bag because I just was not quite back up to speed and I didn't necessarily feel like I got a lot of understanding where it was like, you've had it because it was like two days later and I was like, I'm still like exhausted. I'm sore. I shouldn't have done the surgery essentially and they're like, it's been two days. Like, what do you mean? But really that's probably like the one that I can pick out and say like that was the time that was really difficult. But otherwise I got really lucky that, you know, technicians were very helpful and I didn't have a lot of issues where I had to change what I was doing. Did you have like a sit down with your boss to say like, I'm pregnant. I can't take X-rays. I, did you have a, or was it just kind of like a y'all figured it out as you went along? I was like, like initially I did have a sit down and the reaction I got was like, like I showed in the picture of like the older town. He's like, you, like your, your pregnant and like you could tell it was like, this was not like a joyous reaction that was going on. But ultimately like, you know, once he had like a couple days to process, then then we just figured it out as we went along and I worked with an amazing group of technicians and so like they were not going to let me take X-rays. They were like, nope, you go over there. Like, we've got this and they would go out of their way to make sure I wasn't in an unsafe situation. Matter of fact, I would be the one that would put myself like not with X-rays, but you know maybe with a big dog or something, maybe like stop that, go over there. Yeah. And honestly, like that was really important to me in those moments because I wouldn't, I wasn't necessarily like taking care of myself in that moment. So having that team that was really looking out for me was helpful. I would love to know your experience because you came from equine where you, I think that's not too personal of a question, like were you pregnant and doing equine medicine? I was. So I was an equine ambulatory vet in a truck by myself. So no technician, like nobody, everywhere I went, the horse owners were my texts basically. I also had good pregnancies. I remember I was like 38 weeks pregnant and I floated like 12 horses to each in like 100 degree Texas weather. I ate two large pizzas during the time and I like guzzled water. I don't think I want to float 12 horses to each one. It was not pregnant. It was a lot. Like it was one of those moments where I'm like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to prove that like women can do anything. And then I like for two days, I'm like, that was a worse decision. I made like, well, I don't do it. And so there was a moment where I like kind of got, I used to always take the ultrasound out myself. I would carry all the heavy stuff. And there was a moment where I'm like, I actually like have to ask for help and I have to. And that was hard for me. It was hard for me to kind of say, I can't do some of the things I normally do because physically I can't. The biggest thing for me was I did emergency software hours. My husband would go with me. And so we went and did. It was a yearling cult that cut his back leg. And so already like really hard to treat because he didn't want anybody to mess with him. He wasn't fully broke. And so I sedated him, but he still was trying to kick me every time I like went to touch his leg. And my husband, I was super pregnant. He's out there and he is not a worse person, but he's watching. And we got back in the car and I finally like got everything done. And I was just like, okay, we got everything done. And he was so mad at me. I was sitting there just like he didn't say anything. And I think from the client, he was just, you know, but so mad. Like, and he's just going to really quiet and I'm like, what is happening? And he's like, that was so dangerous. Like you put yourself in our child or us and you could have gotten hurt. Like you could have gotten like killed. Like, and I just was doing my job, right? And I never even considered like how dangerous it really was. And so that moment made me kind of sit back and say, wait a second. I need to ask for help. I need to use more sedation. I need to like do things a little differently than I normally would because of not as fast. I like have another entire being I need to be like thinking about. And so that was a good like stop for a second and like really think about what you're doing. Because again, I'm just in the mode of like go, go, go. And not really think about it. So I do think that having a conversation, like sitting with your boss and really talking about different things is great. And then I also think really considering and talking to your doctor about like, what can I do? What can't I do? What is truly safe is is going to be valuable because it's your first pregnancy. You just don't even think about all the things that in veterinary medicine could actually be super harmful to you. And thinking about that experience of, you know, your husband kind of looking out and being like, this is not safe. My group of technicians, me like stop trying to handle that big dog. I would say, you know, one being aware and taking that feedback, but two, if you're working with a teammate who is pregnant, like trying to give them that same consideration because I think we're demonstrating here that maybe we're not the best at taking care of ourselves. I like stepping back and, yeah, just like take the big dog away from your teammate, you know, step them away from the back of the horse and say, why don't you let me do that? Yeah. In cases where that makes sense. We do like in the ER, there's a couple people recently who have kids and they are pumping. And you know, in the ER, you're busy and you're doing a lot of stuff. And so I've gotten where, especially when I work with one of them, I will be like, have you pumped recently. And she's like, I just got to finish this. I'm like, no, like you need to stop. It's been too long and like she show, be like, are you sure? I'm like, yes, I have the floor, like just go do it. And then she comes back and she's like, thank you. Like thank you for telling me like, it's okay. Like take care of yourself, do what you need to do. And I think we do need to do that for each other in veterinary medicine. Like we need to sit and we need to say, where are you at? What do you need? How can I help you? And also sometimes we need to call each other out and be like, no, no, no. Now is the time you're going to put yourself first and that's okay. Yes. So we're not great at it, but I think that having the conversation and talking about it more hopefully helps people feel empowered to help one another out and communicate a little bit more in these circumstances. One of the areas I feel like I've had that conversation regularly is a technician who's supposed to be gone and they're still working. And I don't realize that they're supposed to be gone. So kind of a little bit in my head figured out like what the staggered schedule is. And this is in a in a relief position, not in my practice. And I've kind of figured out like when I should start to see like the staff, the number of staff members do him dwindling. And so I'll like have a moment where I look around and I'm like, there's too many people here. And you know, we're busy. There's things going on. I could absolutely use the extra hands taking the time to say, Hey, can you do this for me? Wait a second. Are you supposed to be here? No, I'm supposed to leave half an hour ago. Well, then go like, well, we'll figure it out. We'll get it done. I don't know that that's 100% foolproof because sometimes it does mean like one instead of writing the record, I'm going to go do that blood draw and then I'll end up writing the record later. And it does sometimes it does fall back on our shoulders. So it's not perfect. But I do think, you know, for the longevity of all of us in a field that can be really hard to stay in in the long run, depending on what you're doing, you know, making sure that we're looking out for each other and taking care of each other. I like that a lot. And I do think you can tell me if you feel the same way. But as a practice center, I think that is one of my jobs is to kind of look at the whole team and see what do we need and how can I model like what I want people to do. I once had someone tell me like, if you want your team to leave on time, like you have to leave on time. Oh, man. And that's so hard. Hard. I stay after all the time. But a lot of times I'm saying like, okay, great job, guys. Like I'll lock up. Like I'm pushing them out the door because they feel bad not leaving before me. And the same thing at lunchtime, hey, Y'all go get lunch. You know, I might need to sit and do all the other things that I have to do, right? But I think modeling kind of what we expect is really, really important. The other question I got that I wanted to ask you is at ABAH vet wanted to know, do you think being a practice center makes it harder or easier to be a mom also? And you do have a house call practice, but in general, do you think like having ownership of the practice gives you a better ability to kind of be a parent and be flexible? Or do you think it makes it harder potentially? Yes. I would say when it's all said and done, I think it makes it easier. I think having that control and being able to build my own schedule and have that flexibility, you know, when I do have something come up where I have a sick kid or fall concert or something comes up that it's up to me to call the clients and say, hey, this is what I have going on. Can we reschedule? And I don't have extra people that I'm going through to make those decisions ultimately makes it easier for me to have the flexibility to be more present for my family and for my children. The flip side of that is it all comes back down to me. It's up to me to do the communication and this kind of stuff. And the administrative stuff that you don't realize goes into owning a business and owning a practice, making sure the ordering and the inventory and all this is done. So there is a lot more work that I think falls on your shoulders as a practice owner that you might not have realized was even there before, you know, and also like when that emergency calls, there's nobody else for me to say, you know, don't call me, call them. So it's a bigger responsibility than it would be if I could walk out the door at the end and say, not my circus, not my monkeys, but ultimately having that control I think makes it easier. Yeah, I think absolutely having like flexibility and your schedule to say, I'm going to dictate like when I work and how I work is huge. And then financially, I think it's really beneficial to be a practice owner. And ultimately if you do get associates and you grow a business like you're making more money as a business owner. So I think all that is valuable. My husband, Donald Sprinter, and he always says, I don't work nine to five, but I work 24 seven. And I'm like, that's valid, right? So like I can turn it off when I leave the practice. I can be a mom. I can get the kids in bed. But then a lot of times at nine o'clock, I'm going to pull my computer back out. I'm going to run reports. I'm going to look at the schedule for the next day. I'm going to set up like emails that we need to do like so it never really ends, but you definitely have the ability to make the decision of like when are you working and how hard are you working? And I can come to places like this and I can talk to you and I can like, you know, meet people and I can just take off because I'm the owner and I want to and I can set that in my schedule. So I think the flexibility far outweighs any negatives. And then if you build your team, you actually have more and more of that, which is really valuable as a mom and a veteran. Yes. And I will say it has not been an issue for me until recently with feeling like, oh my gosh, it's gotten so busy. I mean, I'm getting all these phone calls. So now I'm at that point where, you know, I have to make some decisions of how things are going to look in the long run. And I think that's important of like having clear goals in the beginning of of what it is that you want. So the goal is that you want to have a lot of flexibility. Like, don't do what I did. But do do that soul searching in the beginning and kind of kind of get a picture in your mind of what you want and go after that goal because I will tell you from personal experience, it's a little harder to put it together on the back side. Yes. It is. I had a veterinary and I worked for that. I respected amazing started a practice. And I just love how he structured things. He was all about training the clients and like, really from that first appointment, like establishing like how things were going to go. And he told me one time he's like, if you want to be a practice owner, you eventually don't want the practice to revolve around you. And I was like, that seems weird, right? Like most bets like started a practice and they working it and they, but he's like, you want to be able to like sell it without you being the main person. You want to be able to like pass the torch on. And eventually you want to be able to not have to be at the office and like have clients still love the experience and love the other veterinarians and like, so my goal has always been like thinking five, 10, 20 years, what is the transition going to look like? What do I want it to be? And I love working and I love my clients, but I go in and I see the people I want to see and I do the surgeries. I want to do. And so I do think there's a balance you can find as you grow your team, which is really, really valuable. And it takes time and it takes energy. And it, it, that always stuck with me. And it really was a different way of thinking as a practice owner versus like, I'm going to be it and everything to everyone because I don't think that is sustainable like long term in our profession. Yes. Which we, we illustrated in the beginning of our conversation of being that, yes, man, I'd love to talk about some of that flexibility and sustainability in the, in the veterinary field in general, because you and I have both branched out in different directions away from just practicing. And so can you talk a little bit about, you know, your podcast and your social media and, and all of that side of things that you have going on? I think one of the best parts of our job and our degree is you literally can do anything with it. Yes. So you get this degree and you have this knowledge and especially once you practice a little bit and so you can speak to things. I really love the fact that we can then move into like being creative and nowadays like social media is where it's at, podcasts, where it's at for educating and connecting. So those of us that are comfortable with cameras and microphones, which there are a lot of our bases right now. Yeah. I'm like, can really like lean into that, I think in knowing that there's other outlets to really talk about how great our profession is, really like connect with pet owners, educate them and then also meet other people in the profession that are passionate about things that are trying to make a difference that are really trying to speak to like some of the struggles and some of the wonderful things is just exciting. So I think it's taken like my career from like something I enjoyed to kind of that next level of feeling like one, I'm making a difference by using my platform to kind of bring more understanding hopefully about our profession and also maybe explain a little bit who we are as a veterinarian and how much we actually care and like what we're actually trying to do. And then two, I really think in our profession, just creating community and connecting with people, we talked about how coming to conferences like in person, there's been so many great events here where you have a chance like sit and really talk to people and like have fun and laugh and meet up with vet school friends that you haven't seen them forever. And so creating that community in person and not just online is extremely valuable. So I do everything I do because I want to show people how great being a veterinarian is that you can find joints, sustainability in this profession. You just have to be intentional about it and also just to like meet people and hang out with friends. Yeah, and it gives you some really great perspective, I feel like because as you're having these conversations, there's so many times that I've been talking to them and like, oh, I never really thought about that. But now that you bring it up, I'm going to carry that forward. So it's not always just about the medicine. A lot of times it is about the networking and becoming just a more well-rounded veterinarian, well-rounded person from being able to talk to people. And so I would encourage people to think about what they enjoy, think about what they're passionate about. And so, if you're really educating, if you like educating, do you want to educate veterinarians or pet owners or both? There's a lot of opportunities there. Do you love spreadsheets? Because I can tell you there's a lot of veterinarians who don't. And so if you love spreadsheets, there's plenty of opportunity to lean into that and help veterinarians in that way. So really kind of finding out like what you enjoy and it doesn't always have to look like practicing in a clinic or being an equine ambulatory in some of the traditional roles that we've thought about in veterinarian medicine. Or you can do both. Or you can do both. Both of us are doing both. We're better for worse. We practice. And we have a couple other hats that we wear. But I think trying different things and like putting yourself out there, you will be surprised the doors that are opened and you will be surprised. Like how much better you feel just knowing you're not alone in this profession, with whatever you're dealing with and whatever is going on. And I think that's one of the biggest goals that we have with putting ourselves out there and sharing our stories is someone's going to say, yep, I've been there or I'm about to be there. And that's the whole goal of everything we're trying to do. Right. Absolutely. Like, having that vulnerability to share those personal stories and say, you know, this is what's been important to just to like you said, give help and power people who need those experiences to help shape their next decision. And I like what you said about how you'll be surprised how many doors open. You know, as veterinarians and veterinary professionals, I think we're just a really compassionate and open group of people. So a lot of times if there's something that you want to do or something you want to go after, like just ask, just go talk to somebody, like send an email and, you know, for the most part, you'll get a reply. And if you don't send another email and if you don't, yeah, just keep bothering VMX and then they'll know. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We'll eventually reply. Yeah. I mean, a lot of times like, I know I've gotten busy and been like, oh, shoot, I'm so glad you emailed me again. But yeah, just ask, just reach out and most people will be willing to help you. And then like you said, those doors will open up and it's surprising, you know, kind of where you will end up where you'll find yourself. Like here, like here, like here with all these lights and cameras in our faces. Okay. So if you had to do it all over again, is there anything like one thing that you would have changed or is there anything that you felt like really made a difference in like where you ended up now and how you did it all? That is such a good question. I'm actually so glad you asked that because when you first started asking, I was like, oh, no, I don't know. But really, I feel like the answer kind of came to me quickly. I'm incredibly grateful for all of the experiences that I've had throughout my career, both good and bad. I think they've really shaped me as a veterinarian. I think it goes a lot back to what I've said a couple times being clear with myself about what I want because I think having that yes, man type of personality has allowed me to almost like stay busy to where I don't have to like reflect it. Yeah, I don't have to look internally and say, but what is it? That I want, but what is it that I need? So I would say if you have that personality where you are going to say yes to a lot of things, then taking the time early, like don't let yourself get so busy that you don't think about what's important to you and you're trying to then figure that out on the back side. That's harder than if you just take the time and say, okay, what's important to me and allow that to kind of shape your path from the beginning. Yeah. I love the intention and then that's kind of what me and my husband do is sit and say, okay, this is a new project. Like how much time is it going to take? What is it going to involve and like what is the ultimate goal with it? And I think focusing on that ultimate goal makes a huge difference with everything you do. Manifested into the into the universe there. What about you? Anything you would have done differently? I think the only thing I would have done differently is I would have figured out how to ask for help sooner and I would have realized I think being a woman in in E.C. Cron especially I felt like I had the mantle of like every woman who was joining E.C. Cron practice and I was the first woman in a group of four men. So I very much felt like I needed to do everything and I needed to prove that we could do. And there's a moment where you realize like I just need to do what I do and I don't need to feel such a sense of responsibility for the entire profession. And if I just do what I need to do and I put myself out there then I will learn and I will grow and I will eventually be able to like share what I've learned. But it was very hard for me to feel like I had other people in it with me and that it wasn't just me. And so recognizing that it wasn't just me and I needed help and I needed to be able to like talk about things and share and self reflect really made a big difference. I love that you said that of just kind of remembering that you don't have anything to prove to anybody but yourself. Like just you know find out what it is that's important to you and really try to focus on that because ultimately do they remember that you went out 38 weeks pregnant and almost got kicked by a cold? No, but you do. I do. Yeah so yeah make sure. I haven't definitely did it. Yes absolutely. So make sure you know you're keeping yourself in mind and not trying to prove things to other people which is a hard thing to learn and it's a hard thing to maintain even once you know that it is. And we're never going to get it perfect right. So we're practicing about your medicine because life is practice. You're always getting better. You're always growing and so realizing that not feeling such a burden to get it right every time has made a big difference for me. Well, Tunisia this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming and sitting down with me in this beautiful studio. Yes. All the lights and cameras that we've acknowledged a few times. Thank you. This has been really fun. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.[Music]