How To Address Sexism In Vet Med

Welcome to another episode of Questions With Crocker! This episode Dr. Crocker and Shane discuss the European government getting involved in vet med pricing, Dr. Crocker's recent emotional ER case, handling sexism in vet med, and more.

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TIMESTAMPS
Intro 00:00
European Government Involved In Vet Med Pricing 02:18
Dr. Crocker's Emotional ER Case 05:10
Listener Question 09:55
Going Back To A Vet Clinic Where You Were In A Different Position 11:06
Handling Sexism In Vet Med 14:56
Outro 22:42

Transcript

0:00

[Music] Welcome back to another episode of Questions with Crocker with me, Dr. Crocker and emergency vet Emma has been Shane. Bye. Welcome to the podcast Shane. Hi. You are my guest toast? Yes. And even working hard today, what have you been up to? We've been spending money today. We've not just been spending money today. What have we been doing? What has the money gotten us? We have cabinets installed. We have doors hung. We have paint touch ups being done. Yes. We are starting to prep for floors. Where is all this happening? At your vet hospital. It's our vet hospital. There is a lot of stuff away from this one. No, it is our third child. This is part of being married. Unless you leave me your third child is... It was not part of my vows. Altavistia in my hospital. I vividly remember my vows and none of that was in there. Actually, side note, do you remember how hard you cried at our wedding? No. Because I knew there was a vet hospital in the future. It's all becoming clear. I was fine. I was good at our wedding until I turned to walk down the aisle and I saw you. And you started crying so then I started crying. And then I vividly remember during our vows when I was trying to get through mine. I said, my voice cracked but it was when I said for richer or poor. And then everyone laughed because they thought it cracked because I didn't want to be poor. But that was not the case. Well, congratulations. This is our reality. This is our reality. So we got married a long time ago and we've done a lot of crazy things together. This podcast is about me as an emergency veterinarian, you as an entrepreneur. We own a vet hospital together. I work emergency in downtown Dallas at a corporate hospital. We have two kids. We have animals or cats hanging out with us right now. And we're here to answer your questions. And the questions are based off of things that are submitted to us, our real life experiences. We are experts in what they... We have nothing zero. Spending money at this point. We are experts in nothing. We basically are sharing our experience, the things we've learned along the way. Hope being to give people a little bit of insight into the world of veterinary medicine. But also into owning a vet hospital. I think that there's actually some really interesting things happening. Oh, you got to let the cat out. Mr. Bobby needs to all of a sudden leave the room. There's actually some really interesting things happening in the veterinary industry, especially overseas. So I want to get your perspective on this. So overseas, they decided to... The government to get involved in basically pricing in veterinary medicine. So there was concerns that whether it was consolidation or other things that... Things were being charged to excessively or marked up too much for people bringing their pets to the veterinarian. And so they're getting involved in actually looking at prices. And there's a big report that came out that did say that they felt like some of the pricing was maybe excessive. And apparently there's veterinary professionals and a lot of pet owners that are kind of behind this movement to look at it more and look at like how consolidation and other things is affecting the industry. So I think it's really interesting. It's obviously happening somewhere where things are done very differently. And the government has control over a lot more. But I think about here where the government has gotten involved in pricing when it comes to like farmers and things like that. And that can become an issue. So do you ever see here in the States that being a topic of conversation? And what are your thoughts around... Because you've been in a lot of different industries around kind of corporate consolidation pricing and what that can look like for a market in general. I didn't even prep you for this. I hope that the government does not get involved to that extent. Yes. In any industry or any business in the US. I believe in capitalism and I think over time that is typically the best way to handle both supply and demand. And in turn, that's what drives pricing. I do think you have to be careful of monopolies. So there's a scenario where there is a large corporation and it's creating a monopoly. That's problematic. But we have things in place already today to help mitigate against monopolies taking place. Well, and they've actually done that before. So there's been some of the larger corporate groups instructed to get rid of so many hospitals, especially if they're coming together and merging. And so some of that has happened where they've had to get rid of so much or else they would have owned too many hospitals. I honestly see a lot of it as an opportunity for small business owners to kind of set themselves apart in how they market and how they price and how they talk about the fact that they are, you know, a smaller private practice. Because I think people more and more are maybe looking for that versus a corporate entity. But I just the idea of a group of people sitting down and just looking at better-know-you-prices and saying, "Oh, you're charging too much." And really not thinking about all the things that go into it is a little terrifying, honestly. Yeah, again, for any industry, anywhere that's a problem that the government gets that highly involved. So again, keep monopolies from taking place. Make sure there's no price fixing that's taking place outside of that, let nature run its course. Well, you all see what happens. And I continue to think that if you have a smaller private practice, if you really do market things the right way and you get involved and engage in your community, you can still be really successful. But it's definitely an uphill battle with all these giants kind of around us. So we will keep you updated on that, but I thought that was really interesting. The other thing is I might look a little tired if you're watching us on YouTube. You can watch us on YouTube because I worked in the EAR last night. And I actually had a really interesting case/ I don't know, thing that happened. So when you walk into our emergency room, it's open concept and so people come in and we can see pretty much where they go and they can see us. And we go to them pretty quickly to triage and see what's going on. And so I had a husband and wife walk in and the wife was very upset. And they had a cat in a carrier. And so the cat was placed on the table, or told there was a triage and it said we have a white board screen in the screen said the cat ate a string. So that can be something that's really scary when cats eat string. If it's long enough, it can actually get stuck and then kind of cause the intestines like telescope on itself and cause a linear form body, which can be really serious. And so definitely worth bringing your cat in if they eat something like that. But when I looked at the cat, the cat looked pretty good and they said that the cat had only eaten a couple of inches of string, not too long for him. And so I kind of started going into my spiel of, you know, what we needed to do for it. I wanted to try to make it throw it up, throw up because it just happened. And the owner was just very emotional and very upset. And I was kind of surprised like how upset they were when, you know, basically I was kind of saying, you know, your cat looks good and this is what we can do and we have options. And I felt like I was trying to be really reassuring. And finally she looked at me and she was like, I remember you. And it kind of set me back for a second because we see a ton of patients and I've worked there for three years so it can be hard sometimes. A lot of the patients, but not always the owners. And when I really looked at her, because I'd been so focused on the cat, she looked familiar, but it didn't come back to me right away. And she said, we were here with our dog and her husband kind of jumped in and said, you were the one you put our dog to sleep. And she's like, I'm so sorry, just the memories are just flooding back like being here. And so worried about our cat. We just lost our dog and then it's you. And so immediately I said, you know, I have other doctors here. I want you guys to be comfortable. I can get another doctor to help you. But you just tell me like, what do you need to be comfortable right now? Like I'm going to help your cat, but just tell me what you need. And she was like, no, like we're fine. I just, I'm emotional and I can't help it. And so I was like, that's fine. So we went to put them in a room just so they could have some privacy. And as we're walking towards the rooms, they said, like, please just don't put us in that room. And that was the room that we did the Asian. And it's one of those things that I think is really important to remember, like how much people's experience, like shapes, what they remember and what they feel. And so I remember her being there and remembering the experience. And so we put them in a different room. And I gave her some time and I came back in and it had hit me like who she was. And their dog was an incredible dog. And it was a very sad thing that happened and a peaceful, you know, ending, but just sad. And so I went back in and said, you know, I remember, I remember him now. And I got like a little emotional too. And I just said, you know, you guys are due for some good luck. So we're going to take care of your cat. We're going to work it out. And so they were like, we're really glad it's you. Like we trust you. You did a great job last time where, you know, we're just, it's a lot. And I said, 100%. So this was one of those cases where I was like, we are going to fix this cat. I've heard of other people have the same issue with their, their GP practice where they may have been at a practice for a long time. But that's the practice that ended up having to put the pet down. So they end up moving practices. Yeah, nothing, you know, the practice did do anything wrong, but they're into doing everything wrong. The memory of the memory of can be really hard. And we've had people like request their records and say, you guys are great. We just can't come back here because you remember it. So I gave the cat something to make it throw up and it can be really hard to get that happening. And I was standing outside the door, like watching. And it was funny kind of because the owner, the guy owner was still in there and the wife had gone up front. She just like needed a minute. And the cat started like kind of acting like it might throw up and so I'm like watching and it threw up. And the guy like looked and he's like, we got it. And like all of us outside the door, we're like, yeah, like so small pieces. It was like this big, but it could have caused a problem. And for her, it was like it could have been the end of her cat. And so I like ran up to the front of the hospital and I was like, we got it. And she just like jumped up and came and hugged me and she's just sobbing and she's like, thank you, thank you. And it's crazy how like such a small thing made such a big difference to them. And I was just was like, you guys needed to win. Like we all needed to win. And so things like that, making a cat throw up a piece of string can be such a powerful experience for somebody. And I was glad I was able to like listen to their concern. We were able to find a place they were comfortable, but it was definitely one of those things that you have to remember like how hard and how those things stay with people, even though I might do five, you know, youth and age is in a shift. And I try to remember each one, but it does all kind of running together a little bit when you do that many. So just a little reminder of what we do. And how important it is and also like a big win because that was I was like, this is happening. We're fixing this cat without anything major going on. So very thankful in that circumstance. So we in this podcast go over questions that people submit. And I had a really great question that I thought you and I could talk about. It is something that if there's younger people listening, it might be something that's a little bit of a sensitive subject or something that might bring questions up. So just letting people know that if they have kids, I would say, you 13. Yeah, PG 13 probably. I think that that would be a good age. This topic is PG 13. So the first part is not. And this is Brittany. I can she is great. She's a follower on social media. She said she listens to our podcast and weekly driving and that she loves it. So she's in Canada. So thank you so much, Brittany is our one international follower. So Brittany wanted to know, how do you deal with going back to a clinic you previously worked at before getting into vet school and getting them to see you as an actual vet and vet student instead of an assistant. And then her second question, which I thought was the really interesting one is how do you deal with sexism in the workforce. And she gave me some pretty significant examples of what she had experienced at this practice that she was looking to maybe go back to. She says a small role practice and before she got into that school, some of the owners were pretty sexist and it made a very uncomfortable work environment for her. So first off, I want to talk about how do you go back to a place that you previously were at a different position and be at a higher level and essentially a leader and what does that look like. What are some of the things that you see like pros and cons with going back to where you maybe trained at when you were younger. I think it's definitely hard because a lot of people that you're now in charge of help train you. Right. So that always calls us or has a potential to cause some controversy. I kind of did that right out of college and went back to work for a bank that I worked at during the summers while I was in college. So it's very tricky, tricky environment you have to kind of navigate through. Some of it is only leadership team to make sure that they've empowered you and that other people around you know that you've been empowered to make decisions based off of what you learned or the knowledge you've obtained in school, etc. So if you have leadership that is willing to back you and empower you and make sure others understand it can be a much easier transition. If you don't have that, I would probably consider not going back there to be honest with you. I mean, the red flag of just before it was a pretty sexist environment was kind of a yeah, but I do agree that you kind of set the standard as an owner or leader in a practice when you're bringing really anybody new in on the level of respect that they deserve and it goes for any position. Everyone should have a voice, but ultimately with the veterinarian it's on me. It's on my license of something happens. And so I have to be the final decision maker with cases or with patients. I do think you obviously continuously learn from people that are in any hospital. And I think a big pro to going back to practice you see bad is you know the people you know how things flow, you know the computer system, you know where everything is kept. And so that comfort level right off the bat is going to be higher just with the environment in general. But I do think that and it's been shown in the data that it's really hard for people to see you in a different way than when they originally met you. And I've been thinking back to like we live in our you know hometown and I'll have people you know come and see me at the vet hospital. And it's funny how quickly we kind of still kind of think of each other of how we were in high school or who we were in high school and you have to realize like there's been so much time since then people grow and change so much so it's really hard to retrain your brain to really look at somebody in a different way and treat them differently than maybe you used to. So I do think you have to be really cautious and like you said have leadership release that you have for success going into a practice and sometimes it might be having difficult conversations to of hey I know that you know things used to flow this way well now I'd really like to see it happen this way and kind of establishing the protocols and the things that are going to make you comfortable as the veterinarian. I would agree also be patient because something like this is going to take a little bit of time like you can't imagine a walk in day one and everything is going to be new. It's definitely going to take some time to establish yourself in that new rule but then also do it in a way where maybe you acknowledge that they help train you right that's okay. And understand that they have a lot of knowledge like you said that they can still share and pass on and don't undermine that right out of the gate. And I would probably you know for the different personalities like if there's somebody that you really feel like they really like verbal encouragement or whatever I think it'd be great to say you know I remember you were really great you know placing catheters and I remember when you helped me with this and being able to kind of say again like thank you so much for putting that knowledge to me and now I'm happy we can work as a team together and like help the pet patients and I know you're going to do a great job with this because I already know your skill level and things like that. I do think your comfort level with people like running in a season doing stuff should hopefully already be there or you should already know the knowledge gaps because you were there before. So then you can kind of bring what you learned and you're training in school hopefully to even elevate things at the practice. So there's definitely pluses and minuses and it's interesting because we have somebody that works for us that I've known her since she was you know really young and she used to ride in the truck with me when I was an equine vet. And I would love it if she goes to that school and comes back and works with us again but I don't know you know if that will happen or not and I would definitely keep in mind like things I can do to set her up for people to really respect her and see her as the doctor when she comes back. So hopefully that is helpful. Brittany Atkin. I think the second part of your question is even more interesting and I think that sexism and veterinary medicine is unfortunately very prevalent as it is probably in almost every industry. Right, but I think the dynamic of having a male dominated industry that has now become female dominated and also still having men a majority of leadership positions you still see it quite a lot. So some of the examples she gave was comments being made about like whether she could actually handle certain size animals comments being made about her hair color and like how she might react to things or you know emotions things like that. So kind of downplaying her capabilities overall because she was a female I remember this one circumstance when I joined an all male practices in equine and the military veterinarian and I was the only woman and they had never had a woman before and I was really good I'll say I was good at client communication so I spent a lot of time in the truck so I would you know if I saw a sick patient or horse the day before I would call the next day like how are they doing I'd answer. All the questions I needed to if there was you know something that was questionable I would just spend time like really communicating with owners and a lot of owners really like that plus I was good at what I did so once I went out there and showed them I could do what they needed me to do like people were calling and requesting me and it was really interesting to me because my boss was making comments about how people were calling and wanting me to come back out and it was maybe people he used to see or other people. You used to see or other people used to see and so you know I'm thinking in my head like man he's seeing what a good job I'm doing he's seeing how great it is and this comment will always stick with me he looked at me and said it's probably how cute you look in those Wranglers and when you jump up on the side of the truck and you lean over and get stuff out of the truck that's probably why they want you to keep coming out. And at the time I just kind of like laugh the comment off but it really like was a thorn in my side for a long time that no I'm really good at this job and yeah maybe I do look cute and Wranglers but that's not the reason people want me to come out and be there veterinarian the other big example which I don't know if you remember this do you know when you used to ride in the truck of me to emergencies and we would get out of the truck together and it was a place I'd never been to before do you remember what would happen. Yeah I must have thought I was the that yeah they would try to walk up to you and say like hey doctor and you'd be like not me. That's the vet over there but it was crazy how it was just so obvious that they assumed like the guy was going to be the doctor coming out so definitely prevalent in our industry and I think that a lot of times because it's uncomfortable to say something or to call people out on it or you don't know how to do it. You don't know how a client especially you might react you just don't say anything as a woman especially when you're alone out with people in regards to her boss specifically being that way and constantly undermining what would be your thoughts your advice on this. If your personality is not of a certain type I wouldn't go back and work there. What type of personality should go back and work there. Somebody they would turn around and tell them that they don't say shit like that. Yeah. I mean so you're not saying like take it but you're not like. No you got to have the personality to push back and call them on it and probably bust their balls a little bit too at the same time. Because that's probably the type of personality this person is is my guess. So if that's if it's something that's going to bother you every single day of comments that are made I wouldn't go back and work there. Unfortunately you're not going to change who there that environment overnight over time is going to change because it's just like in your situation they're going to realize she's really good at what she does. But that may not change the comments that may not change the joking or you know right or wrong it is what it is. Well and a lot of those people are going to age. No they're aging out of the hospital and then you're going to have people that are more aware of how inappropriate those comments are. But I definitely don't think you should just go work somewhere and take it and like you said constantly feel. No you should never do that. So and quite honestly even if you have the personality to handle it is probably still not a good place to go work. That's what I mean that's what I would say is anyone who essentially would be disrespectful I mean that's what these comments are is disrespectful so openly especially in front of a lot of people to your face. I can't even imagine like what they might say behind your back and if they're in a leadership position I think you set yourself up for failure working for somebody and it doesn't matter if you come back with a doctor degree it doesn't matter how great you are your job. They are going to continue to undermine you because they see you as less than and that's just the reality so I think even if you're a strong personality and I consider myself a strong personality but I also think being in the horse industry. I was so used to people kind of making off handed remarks about things that I just would laugh off and it wasn't until I got older that I kind of learned sometimes to like look at people and be like really and like make it a little uncomfortable. And it still kind of makes me like sweat a little bit my heart speed up thinking about it because you really don't know how someone might react to you doing or saying that and when you work with people all the time you don't want to be the one making an awkward or uncomfortable so I just wouldn't put myself in the situation at all most of the time and I would say I think is more. Women enter leadership in veterinary medicine and we do things we almost have to worry a little bit about the opposite so I see comments being made about male pet owners and male people that are delivery people or people that are on our team comments that if they're made towards females would be inappropriate so I think that we have to be aware of it on both sides. And make sure that we're keeping things as inclusive and comfortable for everybody as possible. And if this is a place that you really want to go work right if it's everything else is great it's where you want to be it's close to family it's the practice you want to be at and there's one individual maybe they own a place or in a leadership role. You made set the set the groundwork up front and say look you know there's there's places where they wouldn't accept me because I am a female they wouldn't treat me a certain way because I'm a female I know you're not like that I know this place is like that but I just want to set the groundwork that you know I'm not comfortable working a bar like that so I just want to make sure everybody knows that I'm an equal you know I've got the same degree you have have the same knowledge you have and set that groundwork up front so that then when you call them out later on you can basically refer back to hey before. I told you I'm dealing with this yeah like this is not okay for me to experience this and if it is somebody who owns it and he's there like once a week and you don't really interact with them not much and everyone else on the team is amazing I agree you can figure out what your boundary is but the problem is is a lot of times people that act that way so openly also have people around them yeah birds a feather flock together yes and there are inside jokes and things that a team can have that maybe are really funny and there are some that are just straight and appropriate and I would consider anything about your appearance or your ability because you are a female or a male to be inappropriate and not okay in our industry I think that I'm not I want to say this very cautiously I'm not promoting or saying what these individual do is okay but you could have an environment that's at all built in and they've been acting the same way and joking with each other the same way for 20 years right about a guy wearing two tied a man and that's just come the norm but when you throw a female into that mix you know those jokes have a different meaning to it right so be cognizant of that as well that it may not be that they're intentionally being sexist even though they are it could be just how they've done with their male counterparts faces comes across much different now and most of it is that makes sense when I'm saying like I'm not trying to justify what you're saying but I think you're saying that everyone has like a different level of tolerance and like intention behind what they say but the problem is can I be in a male football locker room if that makes sense like I'm saying like some things are set inside of there inside of the four walls the locker room are taking much differently outside of those four walls and I think that could be taken much differently that could be okay as long as everyone in the locker room that has to experience those things is okay with it the question is ultimately do you think everyone is okay with it and my theory in life is if I can't say something publicly in front of everyone it's probably something I shouldn't say privately or in a in a separate setting because I think that if it's something that would make you uncomfortable saying in front of your parents or in front of your wife then it's probably not something that you should say period right and that's just the way that I kind of roll and it's probably because I've been on the side of inappropriate comments being said for very long time but I'm happy that we are changing things and we're talking about it which is why I wanted to talk about this one to let her know that she's not alone in having these things like happen and to in being empowered to say like hey this is not okay I deserve better this is not the culture that I want and honestly with the opportunities are out there right now she could probably right or to get right or to get anywhere else so don't put yourself in an environment where you're not comfortable 100% and there's probably other people there that are uncomfortable with the same thing they just have been able to say anything so I think that there's a lot of opportunity to try to make a situation better for yourself but ultimately not putting yourself in the situation at all would be my best advice if you are going to work somewhere that you already know that you might be uncomfortable at I just wouldn't set myself up for that this industry is too hard to be in a setting where you are worried about someone making remarks that are going to make you feel like less than that would be especially someone to leadership position so hopefully Brittany that answers your questions and I really appreciate you listening if other people are listening if other people are listening and they want to submit a question you can do that on our social media at questions with Crocker you also can submit a review hopefully a decent one and let us know what you like about the podcast obviously Shane is the star of this podcast DM me but I do like questions like this I think it brings up a good conversation I've definitely been where she is and I really hope that she finds the right place for her in veterinary medicine we appreciate everyone listening on Apple or Spotify and let us know if you need anything in the future have a great day(upbeat music)