Selfish Parenting

16. Is Marriage Worth It for Women? Feat. Yvette Henry

• Chance' Hindir-Lane • Episode 16

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Marriage can be beautiful, fulfilling, stretching, and deeply intimate, but it is not something I can honestly talk about for women without also talking about the risk, the labor, and the reality of what so many wives are carrying. In this conversation, I sit down with Yvette Henry to talk about what 15 years of marriage has taught her, why she still believes marriage can be worth it, and why I struggle to tell women that marriage is automatically worth it for them. We talk about choosing well, the limits of that advice, unpaid labor, faith-based expectations, the Proverbs 31 woman, emotional exhaustion, and what it means to stop performing wifehood and actually live inside a marriage that makes room for your whole self. Yvette also shares the heart behind her devotional Release, Rest, Remain, and why permission to rest is not something we need to wait for from our husbands, our children, the church, or the world… it is something we have to learn how to give ourselves.

Yvette Henry is a homeschooling mother of four, writer, and co-host of the podcast How Married Are You? alongside her husband, Glen. She has been married for 15 years, has built an incredible online community as Mrs. Melanin, and is the author of the devotional Release, Rest, Remain.

Connect with Yvette:

Resources mentioned:

Research mentioned:

In this episode, we cover:

  • Whether marriage is actually worth it for women
  • Why marriage requires work, not just love
  • The danger of telling women to “choose well” like that alone can protect them
  • What women gain and lose inside traditional marriage structures
  • How faith can shape marriage, rest, and wifehood
  • Why the Proverbs 31 woman has been misunderstood
  • The difference between performing marriage and actually being in one
  • Why rest has to come from within
  • How Yvette and Glen think about division of labor, parenting, and partnership
  • Why divorce can be an option without being treated like failure

Hosted by Chancé Hindir-Lane, Selfish Parenting is the honest, empowering podcast that challenges the myth of self-sacrifice in motherhood. Each episode explores identity, partnership, and the balance between nurturing your family and yourself.

Connect with Me: 

SPEAKER_04

When you get married as a woman, you're getting seven more hours of unpaid labor per week.

SPEAKER_02

Proverbs 31, woman. Let's just talk about her first. Oh, that girl has hunted her. And I was like, I need to break apart. But I wasn't allowing myself to do that because it didn't seem like it was a good time for everybody else.

SPEAKER_04

And you made me, I don't want to say cry because I'm a thug for real. No. Stop playing with me. She said, like I like a fucking.

SPEAKER_02

When we try to be performative, that's where a lot of that exhaustion comes.

SPEAKER_04

If you would have asked me if marriage is worth it for women, my answer is no. Hi, my name is Shanse, and welcome to Selfish Parenting. The podcast gives you permission to be well, a little selfish. While raising incredible children, this is where we are going to flip everything you've been told about parenting upside down. Have a sit, relax, and enjoy the show, y'all. Last week we sat with the data that 69% of women initiate divorce because they carry the most, they do the most, and they are more often than not in marriages where they're not as fulfilled. Today we sit with a woman who knows the data but still chooses marriage every single day for the last 15 years. So today's guest is someone I admire far, far, far, far, far, far too long in silence because we followed each other on social media, but I never got a chance to really meet her. But Yvette is a homeschooling mom of. She also has a podcast alongside her husband, Glenn. You guys have probably heard of it, called How Married Are You? My husband actually listens to the podcast, and we've had intimate conversations because of this podcast. She shares her 15 years of marriage with you guys. She has built an incredible community under her username, Miss Melanin. Her Yvette's work is deeply passionate about helping others release the pressure of performing instead of embracing a life anchored in authenticity, in faith, and in abiding God. She's also the writer of this incredible devotional that I actually just got introduced to at the mom friends this weekend. I am so excited to have Yvette Henry here. Yvette! Welcome to Selfish Parenting. How are you? Wonderful. Listen, girl, uh, I want to start off light. Okay. Because I'm a light-hearted girl. Just tell us about a devotional. Because quite frankly, you did a talk at the mom friends this weekend, and you made me, I don't want to say cry because I'm a thug for real. But you really did make me cry when I said I want to start off light and then I go in deep.

SPEAKER_02

No, I was like, what?

SPEAKER_04

The devotional is not light. It's not light at all. But you made me cry when you started sharing your journal. Can you just why? How do you get because journals are so personal. How did you get to like share your journal? Obviously, it led to this amazing devotional, but how did you get to sharing your own journal?

SPEAKER_02

Before people buy into what you've written between the covers of a book, they need to know like who you are and that like you see them. And so for me, I wanted people to understand where I was when the rhythm of release rest remain became a thing for me. And so um, even in writing release, rest remain, I was like a lot of my research was going back and reading old journal entries and kind of seeing where I was, how was I living it out, was I releasing, resting, and remaining? Um, and then even where I was leading up to encountering that rhythm. So for me, reading the journal entry was kind of like uh, if this is you, then I know this devotional is gonna be good for you.

SPEAKER_04

So you said you were at a space, what space was it? Where were you exactly? And I know obviously you need to really read a devotional, but where were you? What was the space that you were at?

SPEAKER_02

So man, there's I feel like there's different iterations or like spots that led to it all, but I feel like I was in a place where I was trying to be all the things. I think I was consumed with my role as wife, mother, entrepreneur, um, friend, leader in the church, um, and all those different things that I never like really took a moment to see me. And those things, those roles were starting to consume all of me in a way that was actually interfering with my connection with the Lord. And I began to rely on my own strength, thinking that like I was making all this stuff happen, and it's only sustainable for so long.

SPEAKER_04

What is your role in church?

SPEAKER_02

Well, at that time, right now I don't really have a role, but at that time we had a mom's group, and I was one of the leaders of the mom's group that we had. I was being weekly, yeah. And then we were also life group leaders. We had a life group that we were hosting in our home, my husband and I. But what's a life group? So basically it's like a small community in the church. So, you know, you have the sermon on Sunday, and then throughout the week, different groups and families get together at someone's home and talk more about their sermon or just do life together. You're committed to like showing up for each other. It's a way to like really check in with people because you know how I don't know if you know how, but churches sometimes you go there on a Sunday and then you leave and then you come back the next following week. But there's no touch points between Sundays.

SPEAKER_04

They have touch points.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, okay. I know you from Utah, so they got they got touch points. Uh yeah, so life group is a way of having a touch point with families and just being more connected.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, I love that. Okay, let's take it back.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

You and Glenn, you've been married for 15 years. Yeah. One five. Yes one big five. How really?

SPEAKER_02

Almost 16 in August.

SPEAKER_04

No, because that's crazy. Yeah. You guys are married, married.

SPEAKER_02

We married.

SPEAKER_04

You are married, married, and you share your marriage experience with us, right? Like, if anyone has not listened to the podcast, like can you tell us what's the podcast about? How did you guys meet? A quick little like cliff note how you met, what's the podcast about, and how did you come about sharing marriage?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so um, my husband and I met um when I was in college. He was a DJ and the Black Student Union, we hired him to like, you know, DJ the events and whatnot. Um, and so I didn't really see him then. Um, but eventually a couple of years later, my godbrother needed a DJ. We um he was the only DJ I knew. So I was like, hey, check out Glenn. And then, like from then, my uh godbrother ended up hiring him as a wedding DJ. And then Glenn and I started dating, and the rest is kind of history. Um, one of the things about us is we got married very young. I was 23, he was 25. And, you know, he doesn't necessarily he doesn't come from a two-parent household. His mom and dad never married. Um, and his dad lived in California while he was raised with his mom in Baltimore. And he would come out to California during the summer. So he didn't really have like a solid family structure or even um example of marriage on a continuous basis. And then I came from a two-parent household, um, not necessarily uh the better whatever, but I started to pick up things about what marriage looked like um uh growing up in our home and then just even growing up in the community that we grew up with. A lot of the people that we did life with as a little girl were married. Um, and so we came into marriage with certain ideas and thoughts and whatever of what it's gonna be like. And then we got married and we're like, oh, okay, nobody kind of warned us about this. You know, we were caught off guard by a lot of things. And so we started our podcast because we didn't want people to be caught off guard.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I like that.

SPEAKER_02

We we I don't know. I think something that we always say is we are the proof, not the example, where it's basically like we are the proof that if you put in the work, good things will happen, good things will grow, um, and like a good, healthy marriage is possible. And so for us, we our podcast is called How Married Are You? Um and very married. Yeah. And we talk about um the realities of marriage, the challenges that we've grown through, um, what it means to like partner in parenthood, what it means to partner in business, uh just what it means to do our own individu have our own individual growth journeys, and then even our growth journeys and how they kind of come side by side so that we are a tighter unit or a healthier unit. But yeah, we we just kind of like to share because we don't want people to be caught off guard. And we want, we also want people to feel less alone. Um, I think sometimes things can seem like they are abnormal when you're going through it in isolation. Um, and so it's more catastrophization happening when you're thinking, oh, we're the only ones going through this. But when you know that other people are going through it and they're fighting through it and they're really working hard through it, it just makes you feel less alone.

SPEAKER_04

It does.

SPEAKER_02

And I think it also helps people to persevere.

SPEAKER_04

I will tell you that um I was telling this Soniaway here, but my husband and I like there's conversations that have been brought up in our marriage based off of you guys' podcast. Like he'll be listening, and he again, I cannot, for the life of me, remember that specific podcast, but that conversation was, and I don't know, maybe you can help me with which podcast I'm thinking about, but it was really, I think you said something about where, you know, you were struggling and like you were like, I wouldn't mind being alone, or like I've thought of being alone, and where he came to me and he was a girl.

unknown

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04

Because we we pushing those years. We've been together for however many years. Like 12, how many? We've been together for 12, married for nine. Um, and he was like, you know, have you thought about it? Because we got married pretty young too. Like, have that crossed your mind. And obviously, that conversation was started based off of your podcast. So, yeah, these conversations, these podcasts, they're very helpful. They're there's something that all of us need in today's day and age because we weren't raised in an environment where our parents talked about marriage okay. Yeah, it was very secretive.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and then there's a lot of things that happen behind closed doors that, you know.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, like, you know, but also I do wonder, right? Because right now, if we look at the stats, right, the data says women gain seven more hours when they are married, of just unpaid labor. When you get married as a woman, you gain seven more hours of unpaid labor per week, right? Men lose one hour per week of unpaid labor when they're married. And then we were talking about how 69% of women are initiating divorce because these conversations are being had. Now, people have podcasts where women can hear these things, where they can hear the, I don't want to say truth, but the struggles in marriage, right? Would you say your podcast contributes to a positive, like, okay, I'm trying to show you guys the positive of marriage, or more so on, like, yo, I'm just trying to tell you the real, you make the decision with whatever you want to do. You know, right.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think we are just trying to help people make informed decisions.

SPEAKER_04

I like that.

SPEAKER_02

Um, I we are not necessarily trying to push you one way or another. I think if you enter into marriage that you should have realistic expectations about what you're getting yourself into. Because I think some people just love the happily ever after. They love the wedding day and all of that. But there is a lot of work for those 40-year-long marriages that is required. And if you don't have the work ethic, then you probably shouldn't be getting married. What's the work? What would you say is the work in marriage? What is your because you guys have been married for 15 years, what does work look like for you guys? Oh my gosh. Work for us is having those hard conversations. Um, like for me, I mean, and I think the work looks different for certain people, but I am a very naturally avoidant person. Okay. Um, I don't need to have, like, okay, we're just done. We don't have to have a conversation. We just couldn't.

SPEAKER_04

I'm good off that.

SPEAKER_02

We're out. Um, but with marriage, like I'm committed to my husband calls it loving uh each other to completion.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, I like it.

SPEAKER_02

And um, I'm committed to loving him to completion. And because of that, there are going to be uncomfortable, hard conversations that need to be had in order for us to be able to keep operating in a way that makes sense. Um, I think the work also has to do with yourself individually.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I do.

SPEAKER_02

I think we all, I am, I don't think I know we all come into relationships, whether it's marriage, friendship, parenthood, whatever the relationship is, we come into them with baggage. Yeah. And so it requires us oftentimes to kind of unpack what's going on and what's informing or what's contributing to me behaving or reacting in a certain way. Agreed.

SPEAKER_04

I want to ask you though, and this is something that I struggle with all the time when someone asks me this question. But again, you're talking about the work it takes to be married. You're talking about the years that you need a work ethic to be married and to have a successful marriage. Is it worth it? Is marriage worth it for you?

SPEAKER_02

For me, it's worth it. Yeah. Why? That's uh I never girl, you had to ask the question. Why is it worth it? Yeah, why is marriage worth it for you? There's a level of um intimacy that goes beyond the physical that you get to have with another human being. And um, I feel like my husband sees me and knows me in a way that many people don't get to experience me and still chooses to love me on a regular basis. And to be able to experience that um on a regular basis is such a beautiful thing to live out. Um, I also think that he makes me better.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Like there being in relationship with him, I have grown in the most beautiful ways. And it's not to say that it couldn't have happened without him, but he popped my bubble. I was living in a bubble prior to um being in relationship with him. And he popped my bubble, but not in a way that was um what's the word? I'm like uh traumatic. It was in a way like a sweet pop. It was in a way that was just done with so much care. Yeah. Um, and I'm grateful for who I am as a result of being in a relationship with him and partnering with him in parenthood.

SPEAKER_04

I like that. I I agree. Because I've been asking myself the same question. Uh, if you would have asked me if marriage is worth it for women, my answer is no. And unfortunately, my answer is still no. I I don't think marriage is worth it for women. I think marriage is worth it for me right now. However, karma, for marriage to be worth it for me, I genuinely feel like as a woman, you will have to marry a very exceptional man. Yeah. I've always believed that in order for marriage to be worth it, for you to gain anything from it as a woman, you will have to marry a very exceptional man. And I think sometimes when I say exceptional, people think like rich or something like that, which I'm like, no, money is absolutely nothing. But I mean all of our husbands, all of the men are being raised in a patriarchal world. We are all being raised in a world that has beat into them certain things that aren't necessarily best for me. People like to believe that, oh, you know, like women first, children first. That's not true. There aren't many men who will even give up their seat on a train for our women. And a lot of women, especially those who were raised in church, were bred and raised for marriage, while our husbands were not. A lot of them were told, sir, make a little bit of money. That's it, make some money. We don't even live in a world where only the husbands work. Most women also work. We're in dual income households most of the time. When you take away, because and I was gonna ask you this too, because I actually sat with this question, I was like, huh. Yeah, like what is the purpose of marriage? Because again, I I mentioned in an earlier episode that I am very much struggling with my faith right now. And a big part of purpose of marriage for me came from that faith aspect of it, right? It is the Lord's will for us. That was a purpose for marriage. But now when you look at marriage, and I think I looked up the definition and I will find the exact definition, but the definition was like, you know, partnership, companionship, and like all of those things. And I agree. But those aren't things that are freely given with someone who cannot meet you, who's not willing to change their mind, who is not exceptional in a way of understanding that I have to give up what the world tells me I should be as a man to meet my wife where she is. Or I have to provide more than finances. Or, you know, my wife is not my free laborer, my wife is not there to make sure I have a free nanny, a free cook, a free childcare. My wife is not there to make sure I have a warm body in my bed, my bed doesn't belong to her. Not a lot of men think that. And a lot of the time, if you ask a lot of the men you're in companion with, and I'm not saying your partner, my partner, but if you ask some men and say, like, do you believe that your wife's body belongs to you? They will quite literally say yes. They have an ownership towards us. So it's like very hard for me to tell women and be like, it's worth it for you. No, I think marriage is worth it with exceptions, really deep exceptions. But then for me, I end up just saying, No. I'd be like, no, it's not. And then I sound like a hypocrite because I'm sitting here like, I do like it here though. But for all the reasons you mentioned, same, right? I do love all those reasons. But what I want to ask you is right now, would you advise your friends to seek out marriage?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Really? I would. Um, but I think it all comes down to choosing well. And I I think the beautiful thing about you and I and people like us is that we are raising boys. Yeah. Like I have three sons. You have one. Yeah. Two. Two. You have two. Yeah. You have two and two? Yeah, girl. Girl, you're so lucky. I know. My name does me love. That about. Oh, does it? Yeah. Chance. Oh, yes. Duh. Um. But yeah, I think that we have such a responsibility and privilege to raise up young men who are quality and think differently than what they've been programmed to. Absolutely. And so, and I think the beautiful thing is too that we did choose well and that we have husbands who model a different type of manhood than what was modeled for our husbands. And so I do believe there are still good men out there. Um, I know that the when you look at the math of it all, like the ratio of what's out there and what's not, is not necessarily the best. But I do believe that marriage is still something that if you desire it for yourself, that you should want for yourself. And like just choose well, though.

SPEAKER_04

So here's the thing, right? I think a couple episodes back, I was here saying the same thing you're saying.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

I was talking about like, y'all gonna choose better. Y'all gonna choose well. Yeah. And then something recently happened that has been making me shift my mind a lot about that choose well statement. There's a woman I follow, her name is Keisha Speaks on TikTok. I don't know if you know her. She's currently going through a divorce or separation with her husband.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, we're gonna interview her on How Married Are You?

SPEAKER_04

Shut the Front Doors. Yes. Love her. My husband reached out. He's like, I need to talk to this girl. Love her down, love her down. Love her down. I'm trying to get her up over here too, baby. Keisha Speaks, girl. Come on over. Um, love her down. She said something that my my mom and my sisters and I have talked about before, right? And it's a choose well statement. I stand firmly by that. Like I because I'm I like to think that I chose well. But go ahead, right? Here's the thing some of us actually think we chose well. We check off the list, we are careful. We are told that a man is supposed to this, this, this, this, this, this, this. But they're choosing hard. That whole index is wrong. Right? They were told that's like you have to choose a man who is educated. An educated man would not hurt you. Or an educated man is not this. Don't choose the gangsters. It's not the gangsters who are killing their wives every day.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Right? It's the politician. It's the polished man. Right? You are told, um, don't choose a man without a job. Even the ones with job will leave you. That wants, build with the man. Even the women who choose the kind men that they built from the beginning will get to the top, leave them once he makes it there. We are told, choose the man who has a two-parent household. Even the ones with two-parent households could have been a toxic one and they could still leave you. Choose the nerds. Choose the quiet one. You choose the quiet one. Turns out he's quiet because he's not emotionally available. You there is not enough choosing well that can actually truly protect you as a woman from the reality that even the best chosen, the most well-chosing checklist you have could still lead you in a space of divorce or even being hurt. Because the worst thing that could happen to you in a marriage is it's not divorce as a woman. Girl, he'll kill you. Today, like it's happening to so many black women. They're being killed. They're being harassed by their own husbands. They're being sold online, their privacy. And it's like, as a happily married woman, I genuinely struggle recommending marriage. And it's contradicting to me because I genuinely think it is one of the most fulfilling things that I have in my life, right? My partner, like he's love, he's support. But it doesn't take away from when somebody's like shaking my dad be like, girl, I don't know. You want to? Right? You sure? Who? It's like, it's this risk. And I guess like anything else, you calculate the risk and you decide whether it's worth it or not. Yeah. And that's really where it comes down to.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Right? It's risk calculation.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, when we leave outside our front door in the morning, it's a risk.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You know what I mean? When we go to sit down in a chair, technically it's a risk too. But we trust it. We trust it's going to carry the weight, you know, because it's a chair. Yeah. But it could, there could be a broken leg, a loose screw, whatever, and you could fall. And so I think like I don't like to let fear define my decision.

SPEAKER_04

I love that.

SPEAKER_02

And so I know that there are some things like your heart. Yeah. You don't want to put your heart out there and then somebody just takes it and mistreats it, mishandles it, and breaks it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But I do think that I'm also someone who I am, my faith is really important to me. And so I trust God as I make decisions. And I always seek his wisdom as I'm making decisions. And so I know that there are a lot of Christian women who choose a man and they think that that's God. And it ends up being, you know, not, it ends up in divorce or whatever the case may be. But even still, like I think it's still worth it. Um so because we can't let fear drive our decisions, unfortunately. But I get it. I get it.

SPEAKER_04

No, like the fear is there, right? I think for me, sometimes it's like less of fear and more of like the data says, girl, you might be, right? I'm very much like, no, no, no, girl, you're one in five. Do you want to be the one? And I think also my background, just like where I come from, has a lot of play here. But you're devotional, right? Release, rest, remain. It's about embracing, right? It's about surviving. And as a woman of God, a woman of faith, when you were deep in that struggle, do you feel like that has a part of it, how you were brought up? You know, you said you lean a lot on your faith. Is that something do you think that kind of had a way of adding to your, this is my responsibility as a wife, because a wife is supposed to do this, this, and this and this, take care of her household, this, this, and this that made you feel like you can't necessarily rest, right? You were like, I have to keep going. Do you believe your religion or your faith had a say in that? I don't want to say a say, but you know, kind of let was a driving factor.

SPEAKER_02

I don't want to say that my religion or faith had a driving was a driving factor. I want to say that the people who um like modeled certain things for me were a driving factor. And I think that that's why it's so important that we're reading the word of God for ourselves. Because the Proverbs 31 woman, let's just talk about her for a second. Oh, that girl has hunted us. But the thing about it that I think a lot of people miss is that she was not all the things all at once. She was fulfilling those roles within a given season. She's not always tilling the soil. You know what I mean? Like there's a season where you do that, and then there's a season where you get to eat the fruit of the hard work that you did then. You know what I'm saying? She wasn't doing all those things at once. And I think that we as Christian women sometimes imagine that she was, because it's new the Proverbs 31, it's in one chapter. Yeah. You know, it's all happening, but it wasn't all happening at the same time. She wasn't doing all those things at the same time. And then there was even parts of that scripture that says she has, I'm gonna look it up, that says she had help. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03

I knew I was a perver 31 women little key. I just didn't know like I was because I knew she had help, baby. She had a housekeeper, she had a nanny, she has a house manager. I am a perver 31 woman in the three. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

She said it says she rises while it is still night and provides food for her household and portions for her female servants.

SPEAKER_03

Come on, and she had mugged up post-hurban.

SPEAKER_02

She she wasn't doing it on her own. There were certain things. She evaluates a field and buys it. She plants a vineyard with her earnings. She planted the vineyard and then later on she reaps the benefits of that. You know what I'm saying? So she was a working woman. I feel like the problem is the way that Christian women in the past or even in the present have lived out their faith is not necessarily the way that God has designed us to do that. And so, yes, we're supposed to take care of our husbands and take care of our children, but he does not desire for us to do it in a way that we're burnt out at the end of the day. Wow. Um, girl, I'm gonna tell you one thing.

SPEAKER_04

All I know is I'm about to go home and start telling everybody I am a pervert 31 woman. You are. Girl, excuse me. Okay, I am, right? It is so interesting the way you're putting it too, because literally I've been talking about my faith and my struggle with faith so much. And one of my biggest things that I always say is like the Bible is subjective. It is very subjective. I say that because I think it's one of the only living breathing books where I can read a chapter and get something completely different out of it. Yeah. Okay, I see. And you read it and get something different out of it, right? Yeah. Which is what has happened historically with the Bible. You go to church, the pastor reads it, he goes, Yeah, let's talk about why you was out here dating up. You know what I mean? Like it's very subjective in a way where we all translate it kind of based off of like what we need from it, which that's why I think it's so powerful. It's it's breathing, it's living. Because we can read a chapter and based off of where our heart is, our mind is, what we need, we'll get something from it that we were like, that's what I needed, right? Because of that, I think sometimes, like you said, we kind of drive it, we kind of just take it and leave it, take it and go. Perver three one woman has been described as this, quite frankly, fantasy of a woman.

SPEAKER_03

Unrealistic expectations.

SPEAKER_04

The most unrealistic woman on the planet. And it's like, I want that woman. It's like, well, do they have a perverter one man? Girl, I don't know. But they have him in there somewhere, I'm sure. But like, and I want to just drive the fact home that, like you said, she was just unrealistic. But also, we weren't reading the full. We were thinking, like, girl, yeah, you win this one chapter, so doing everything at the same time. But comes out, she has nanny, like the rest of us. And I I'm laughing somehow because I'm about to go tell my husband this when I get home. But okay, I want to ask you something, right? And I want you to be completely honest with me here. You wrote on your personal journal, you wrote, Lord help me, in big bold red letters. What were you asking for? What were you seeking for? Where were you in that space?

SPEAKER_02

What happened is I felt like because of the roles that I was carrying, I was not able to fall apart. That's what I'm saying. I it's never a convenient time. You know what I mean? Yeah. And my therapist at the time had said, hey, you have walls up. And I was like, no, I don't. Like, I'm gonna like I literally live my life out loud. I tell people everything that's going on with me. What are you talking about? I'm very open about all the things. And she's like, you know, walls aren't necessarily to keep people out, they're also built to maintain a structure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And so I realized that I was maintaining a structure of the strong friend, of the strong black woman, of the woman who had it together. Don't worry. Like, yeah, I'm going through all these things, but I I can handle it, you know. And I had gotten to the point at that time where um my sister-in-law had just passed away. And it was like the grief associated with losing her had encountered grief that I hadn't really expressed or dealt with in a way that I was at an implosion point.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

And I was like, I need to break apart. But I wasn't allowing myself to do that because it didn't seem like it was a good time for everybody else.

SPEAKER_04

So would you say that right now, are you, and I know I asked this question to everyone, are you the primary caregiver of your kids, even though both you and your husband are working at home? Or would you say that you guys have kind of come up to a great division of labor in your marriage? And how are you guys kind of navigating that?

SPEAKER_02

You know, I would say that I am the primary. Um, but there is a very, I think there's an appropriate division of labor. Mm-hmm. Agreed. You know, um, my husband works from home, but we try to be mindful, like he is the primary uh person breadwinner. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't really have income like that. Right. And so we try to respect his time so that he can actually do what he needs to do in order to bring in that money because we gotta live somehow. Hello. So, um, but I will say that my husband carries his weight. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I think it's um it's always interesting when we have the division of labor conversation because to me, I feel like it's so hard to put into perspective what that looks like for each family, and it's not about equality, more like equity. Yes, right. Like, because equal would be like 50, you do this, I do this, but that's not necessarily equitable most of the time.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Sometimes the reality and what's realistic, right, is fair. I feel like I strive for what is fair in a form of we are both fulfilled, we both have time for ourselves, we have time for each other, we have time for the kids. And we also can pursue our desires, whether that be to never work again or whether that be to work every day, whatever that looks like. And you are raising four kids and you have homeschooled them from the beginning. You mentioned a little earlier. I'm so intrigued. How does that look like for you? How does that leave room for you? Right? For Yvette to just take care of herself. And how do you step up for motherhood if motherhood is there? Like, you know, I'm big on a village, and I always say school is my ex in the village in a way as well. So, where where do you get your time? How does that work for you?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, um, it's very intentional. And it's not, and I think that some seasons there's more of it than in other seasons. Yeah. Um, I think for me, it looks like working out, waking up early in the morning and getting a workout in. Don't take me back to those days. For me, it looks like leaving and going for a walk. Yeah. Um, I'm very heavy on, hey guys, I'm setting a timer for 20 minutes. I'm gonna go sit in my hammock, leave me alone. That's so cute. You know what I mean? Like it's set, it looks like setting clear boundaries with them and they begin to understand. I also communicate very well with my kids. Like a while ago, I did a lesson on what it means to be introverted versus extroverted, so that they understand that like I'm really an introvert. Like I know that we always do all the things and we're kind of social with everybody, but that drains the energy out of me. And so sometimes I have to say no to that birthday party that you really want to go to because we just went to another one the day before, and I'm not doing all the things. Um so it looks like that. I go to therapy. Um, I I take like right now, I'm on a uh, what do you want to call this? A little East Coast trip coast trip tour, work on type combo. I'm officially on day eight of being away from home. Um, honey, leave them kids at home summer. Yeah, my husband is very good about creating space for me to be able to do the things that I want to do when I want to do them, if it's economically, you know, responsible. Absolutely. Um, and so I don't feel like I have a hard time with that. I feel like it does become a challenge when the schedule gets really like jam-packed, but it does require me to be intentional about making sure that I'm doing the things that fill my cup.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. I think we we often think of ourselves as invisible for some reason as moms. It's like, yeah, I can keep going. Yeah. You feel this like, I don't know if we get it from, I don't know, having to push a baby out of our hoo-ha, but we do get this chip on our shoulder, like we can handle anything.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Right? Which is why I feel like, you know, I'm like literally so excited to dive into the devotional because when we talk about rest, yeah, I think we have to be more intentional to talk about rest that comes from within. Yeah. Not just a physical rest. Right? Your mind resting. Can your heart rest? And when you're married, a lot of people, a lot of the fears that I have people tell me is that they're afraid that they will not have that same rest of I don't have to worry about my husband, I don't have to worry about the kids. It's a big fear of people. It was a fear of mine too. Once you get married, you're always gonna have someone take care of. You always have to have someone else to consider. Does that ever feel crippling to you?

SPEAKER_00

Mm-mm.

SPEAKER_04

Um, wait, I'm a liar.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Not stop playing with me.

SPEAKER_04

She said liar like a pacifier.

SPEAKER_02

I guess I don't know if I would use the word crippling. That's a strong word. That's a very strong word. I so like a little bit of my background is I got married when I was 23. And so I came from college, from the college dorms, back to my parents' home, got engaged, and then moved into a home with my husband. So there are times, there are times when I'm like really welmed by the responsibility of wifehood and motherhood and adulthood. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Uh by itself.

SPEAKER_02

That I think, like, man, I never really had time to learn who I am. You know what I mean? Like all of the becoming is happening alongside figuring out how to be a good wife, how to be a good mother, working a new profession. You know what I'm saying? So for me, there are times when I look back and I'm like, I just wish that I had a moment to like discover me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

To meet me, to like explore different interests and all the things without the added responsibility of these roles that I carry. Do you still think like you get to explore you now?

SPEAKER_04

Those responsibilities?

SPEAKER_02

Yes. It just looks different. You know, you know, it would, it just looks different. That's all I'm gonna say, I guess.

SPEAKER_04

I I I got married at 23 too and had kids right after 24, 25, and 27, I believe. So all my 20s, I was a wife and I was a mom. But I feel like because I kind of am very defiant in a way, I think that's a word I can use. I really looked at it as I'm not letting go of what I want. And I I fought like I just fought it. I fought it really hard, and I think I came at it really, really hard from the get-go. It was very much like, yeah, I don't care. I don't think I'm done with my career, I'm going back to work. Um I don't think I'm happy here, I'm leaving that. I I think maybe it's my background that have made me into a very okay to center myself person. Like I I have, I generally don't have guilt centering myself. And I and I I don't know, people ask me how I don't have it. I'm like, I don't know, girl, I just don't.

SPEAKER_02

And I think it has to do a lot with your upbringing. Like even just getting to learn about where you came from and all the things. Uh huh. I am a lot more understanding of who you are today. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_04

I think it's definitely that. I think you when you deal with such big things at such a young age, you become very much like stoned in certain things. And I feel like I am very stoned in a lot of things. And it's not that I'm not willing to waver, but everything, my favorite saying is it has to be worth my money, worth my time, or or worth my heart. Because if it does not check two of those boxes, I won't do it. It just, I won't do it. If it's not worth my money, my time, or my heart, I won't do it. And the heart comes literally first. However, to some people, there are people who get the privilege of coming first because they have my heart, and they all fit on this one finger. My husband and my four kids. After that, make it worth my time or my money first. Then the heart can kind of follow a little bit. And it's like, it's just that's and it's so weird because I'm very black and white. It's very simple to me.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So when I'm making decisions, I just go back to my framework. I like to call it my frameworks. I'm like, is it worth my money, my time, or my heart? It's not, I'll walk away. But I also know how I am when my heart is not full. I know how I am when I'm empty, when I'm depleted, and I hate that version of myself so bad. And I I wish I had like this symbiotic relationship with her where I could be like, you know what? Yeah, I don't have that. I just know I don't want that version of myself around. I don't like her. I don't like myself exhausted and tired. I'm not my best self. I'm not nice. I'm not kind. Um I'm not the best wife when I'm tired. I'm definitely not the best wife when I'm angry. I'm not the best mom when I'm tired. I'm definitely not the best mom when I'm, you know, overworked and underpaid. Money. It's just I'm not. So it really makes it so easy for me to make those me decisions. You know, and maybe that's something that could help someone else who's like, I don't know how to percent on myself. Just think of yourself when you're tired, when you're exhausted. Like you literally sat here and you give us, and I'm again, I'm really just keep going back to this because even having uh this devotional on your table, I that to me feels like it could be a moment for someone to just peep over and be like, girl, I need to rest. That permission. Oh, for real. That permission to just take a breath. But I do want to ask you why the word you use was permission. Why was the word permission? Who are you seeking permission from? Your husband, God, you, like, where was it coming from? Society? Permission to rest. Yeah. Who was who are you asking permission or seeking permission from?

SPEAKER_02

In the end from myself. Wow. You know what I mean? Like, in the end from myself. I feel like there's always like I was, was I talking, I don't know who I was talking to, but I was just talking to somebody recently about how I have a deeper understanding for that movie, waiting to exhale. You know, like we are often saying, like, you know, when I have this amount of money in my bank account, I will. Yeah. When I lose this amount of weight, I will. Yeah. When the children get this age, I will. You know what I'm saying? It's like we're waiting to do the thing. But it's like, stop waiting to breathe. Just do it. But I am that person. Like I deeply believe in delay of gratification, sometimes to a fault. And so I feel like rest has to be earned in a way. And so it's like me. I am that is like the work ethic. That I've always kind of grinded with is like, okay, I just gotta make it to the end of the semester and then I can try take a breath. Take a breath. But for me in my old age, um, I'm like 30. That's my big age. That's my big age. I am learning that um I cannot wait to exhale. I cannot wait to rest. Rest is what fuels me. And so with that mind shift, I am in a much better place than I have been in past versions of me. And it's allowed me to show up better, not just for my family, but for me. You know what I mean? It's a lot more sustainable.

SPEAKER_04

So um, if you know a woman is listening to this podcast today, and maybe they're in that space, the same space you were at, would be two things you would tell them that could help them snap out of that. Maybe not snap, but you know, help them through that stage.

SPEAKER_02

I have three really rest remain. Come on. Hello. No, I but seriously, um, I think one thing that I would say is that it is heavy. And no matter what you do, it's still going to be heavy. So at some point you have to like put it down. Yeah. You know, you have to let it go. Um and acknowledge the weight, but just let it go and trust that God is going to do his thing, you know, in spite of you. Um, and then the second thing, I guess, would be to trust God. I don't know. I don't know if your crowd is a faith-based crowd. I'm sorry. They are actually. Oh, they are? Okay. Well, he's baby they all lie.

SPEAKER_04

I thought it was beating my behind them the last episode, honey. They definitely are based.

SPEAKER_02

It's to trust God. I've been recently having this whole thing about faith versus trust. It's like, it's one thing to believe that God can do something, but it's another thing to trust that he will. And so allowing yourself to fully trust to God that he will work it out like no matter what. Um, and it may not look like what you want it to look like. That's the one thing that you also have to release. Um, but it'll get worked out eventually.

SPEAKER_04

And I want to ask you this because it is something that I think about often from just my background, my mom, and the women in my life. Do you feel like when it comes to faith-based marriages, is there a point where you're kind of just performing what you think a wife is supposed to be instead of sort of living in your true and what type of wife you want to be because you're afraid of not being that faithful wife or that pervert 31 wife?

SPEAKER_00

Right?

SPEAKER_04

Where do you divide from performing marriage to actually actively being in a marriage? Meaning you're just there for what works for you and your partner, not what has been shown or told would work for you based off of your faith or based off of your upbringing or whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_02

I think that comes from the remain piece. Um, you know what I mean? Like the scripture, so release rest remain is based on John 15, which talks about Jesus being the vine, us being the branches, and God being the gardener. And so in that passage of scripture, he repeats time and time again, remain in me. And the biggest thing that I got from that chapter is that like the only thing God is asking of us is to remain in him. And I think so many of us don't do a good job of doing that. We look to others to kind of tell us what the word of God says and to how to whatever. But I think when we remain in the presence of the Lord, then the fruit starts to be produced, not by us, but by him. You know what I'm saying? Like patience, kindness, yeah. All of those fruits that they talk about in Galatians. And so for me, I think I'm not gonna hold your baby.

SPEAKER_04

I love the way you quote the Bible. It is hot, she said in Galatians.

SPEAKER_02

I said, Oh go ahead, girl. Um, and so for me, I just think like when we try to be performative, yeah, that's where a lot of that exhaustion comes. I am encouraging you in the devotional to embrace abiding over striving. So don't strive to be what that woman is for that man. Those are two different totally people, totally different people than you and yours. And so for me, I think that the connection that I have with the Lord informs how I show up in my relationships, in my marriage, in my parenting. I've come to understand that the way I parent my kids is not gonna look the way that you parent your children. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's just different. There are some things that are foundationally there, but there are other things that it's like, no, this is between me, God, and my husband.

SPEAKER_04

So, you know, um, you know, I and I personally have this thing where I find myself often being too close off to opinions and to now I do believe in godly wisdom, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but and accountability, but you also got to be mindful of who you're receiving that from. Hello.

SPEAKER_04

Not everybody's not everybody can speak into your marriage. Not everybody. So you said fruitful, like you put in the work. So let's take this back into terms of marriage. You put in the work, because we've kind of touched a little bit on the work of marriage, right? What's what are the fruits? What would you say you have been planting marriage for 15 years, right? Why would you say are the fruits of marriage that you are eating as a sister who's listening and deciding whether or not marriage is worth it for them, right? What would you say will be the fruit that they will be ripping of marriage?

SPEAKER_02

I mean, I don't know if I can speak to that for someone else's marriage. Yeah. Um, but for me right now, it is patience, it is kindness. Come on now. Um, it is gentleness, you know, like the work that we put in now as we navigate certain situations, we are a lot more gentle with one another. Yeah. We are a lot more kind with one another. Um, we are experiencing more joy. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I think that's the fruit that we are like experiencing in this season, yeah, as far as my marriage is concerned.

SPEAKER_04

I love that. I love that. And I always thought when when we say work, right? And I think what's most fun about talking to other married women is that what I'm beginning to learn is we all have a different definition of work in marriage. And people don't know that. Because like when I think about work in marriage too, right? The work we put, I including the stuff you mentioned too, for me, it's been more so we've had to be very intentional with our time. We have so many young kids. The work looks like me getting dressed up for a date night, even when I don't want to go nowhere, because my husband enjoys being out on a date night. I enjoy it too. But sometimes like, girl, I am tired. I don't want to do my makeup, put on a dress and go out on a date. But that's the work because the reward of that work could put in is us getting some time alone together. And those time alone together fuel how the rest of our week looks like, how the rest of our, you know, Saturday night looks like, the rest of the Monday looks like. My husband is going into, he has a pep on his step after a date night, honey. You know what I'm saying? And that's the work. I have a pep on my step after a date night. You go a little different, right? Yeah. The work looks like when we are tired from work, from life, and something goes wrong, you don't automatically go out your problem, you don't use them as your punching bag, even though some of us were thought that they should be able, you know, they should be your punching bag. You choose, right? That work looks like you choosing to use them in a gentle, like you said, gentler. Like that's work. It does take work for you to hold your tongue. Me specifically, baby. Let's specifically it takes work for me to hold my tongue.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

It takes work for me not to nitpick. Yeah. It is work, and that's the work. That's the work we're referring to, right? And the benefits, they like you said, they really are endless, in my opinion. They really are. Which is like, girl, you just told us not to get married. I didn't say don't do it. I said caution. But like, don't do it. You know what I'm saying? But like caution. But I honestly, I I just love it. And I want to ask you, give us a hot take. What would you say is your marriage hot take?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I wasn't prepared.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, dang, I like to catch you off guard with a hot take.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_04

Uh what's your marriage hot take? I have too many. It's unfortunate. But um, I would say my biggest marriage hot take is that marriage is not worthy for women. Oh.

unknown

Sorry.

SPEAKER_02

You're saying sorry to be. Me married happily. It's not worthy, girl, but I love it.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_02

I guess my hot take would be that um divorce is an option. I used to think that it was not. It used to be something that was like off the table for me. Um, but I do understand now that I've done a little bit more living. Come on, girl. Um, that divorce is an option. Love.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and I've always thought it was an option. All right. I went into it like, nigga, I will leave you if I have to look at me correctly. I'm just kidding. No, I love that. I think that's a fantastic I love it. I think that's a fantastic hot take. And honestly, if anyone has not listened to Yvette and her husband podcast, I implore you to really I I feel like we all have, though. I didn't even know who I'm talking to. I feel like we all have seen the podcast. We all love it. They must. You must. It's a fantastic podcast. And I think these conversations that you and your husband have candidly are so helpful for many couples, us, literally, ourselves included. And for you to continue to show up, you just as the women that you are, to be this open, this candid while still remaining yourself on the world of social media, it is so refreshing. It is so wonderful. And we're just happy that we got to steal you for an hour to be here with us because it's been a pleasure. And not only that, I am genuinely so excited. I keep saying this, but this really did come at an incredible time in my life. I think I could use that reset, yeah, the rest, right? Even if it's not, and I'm really more with myself. And this is a very much, it's about you, right? I'm gonna update you, girl.

SPEAKER_02

Girl, it's only one devotional a day.

SPEAKER_04

I'm going to update you in 30 days when I'm done. Like, I'm gonna update you in 30 days when I'm done and see what this devotional did for me, especially with my faith and just myself in general. Like, girl, you know I like to relax. Yeah, I'm really excited. So thank you for this. And thank you for taking the time for thinking of other women in a time where, you know, you were having a hard time. It takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there, your own personal journals. Like, that's that's courage. So we're thankful that you did that, and we're thankful for this book. And I'm so excited that you are here. Thanks for having me. Thank you for being here. Any last words, Yvette? No, she said, You got what you got, honey. Thank you. Yeah, I love it. And you guys can find Yvette. We're gonna have also the link to devotional, link to her podcast and all her socials in the notes, as well as literally anything that we don't know about her. It'll be in the podcast notes. And of course, the research is always going to be in the podcast notes as well. Thank you guys for being here. And I will see you on the next episode. Bye. Bye.