In the Podlight: Kim Montelibano Heil + Victor Vazquez - The Economics of Casting Regional Theater

Summary: Casting directors Kim Montaliba-Nohail and Victor Vazquez discuss the significance of regional theater in the American arts landscape. They explore the role of regional theaters in nurturing new works, the challenges of casting in different mediums, and the economic impacts of the pandemic on the theater industry. The conversation emphasizes the importance of representation, the complexities of casting expenses, and the ongoing efforts to create equitable opportunities for underrepresented voices in the arts. Both share personal insights on the journey of an artist, the value of community, and the need for persistence in the face of challenges.

Takeaways

• Regional theaters are crucial for developing new works and voices.
• Casting in regional theater involves a different set of challenges compared to film and TV.
• The pandemic has significantly impacted the economics of regional theater.
• Advocating for representation in casting is an ongoing effort.
• Success in the arts is not a binary of pass or fail.
• Actors can thrive outside of major cities like New York and LA.
• Building relationships in the industry is key to long-term success.
• Personal values should align with professional goals in the arts.
• The journey of an actor requires persistence and adaptability.
• Community support is vital for artists to flourish.

Chapters
00:00Introduction to Regional Theater and Its Importance
03:02The Role of Regional Theaters in American Canon
05:47Casting in Regional Theater vs. Film and TV
08:53Challenges of Casting and Audience Expectations
12:00Economic Impact of the Pandemic on Regional Theater
15:09Navigating Casting Expenses and Equity
17:51Advocating for Representation in Casting
21:05Success and Failure in the Arts
23:51Finding Equitable Opportunities in Different Regions
27:06The Journey of an Actor in Today's Landscape
29:50Personal Values and Professional Life in the Arts
33:02The Importance of Community and Relationships
35:57Final Thoughts and Advice for Aspiring Artists

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Connect with In The Podlight on the Website

Check out the Old Globe Theatre on their website

The Team:
Caroline Liem – Producer & Host
Grant Kretchick – Producer & Host
Cris Graves  - Producer & Editor
David Margolin Lawson  - Composer
Emily Yaneth Perez – Administration
The Lee Agency - Press Agent
Brandon Mills - Cover Art Photo Credit  

In the Podlight is produced in collaboration with Pace University – Sands 

●      The thoughts, opinions, and views expressed by the guests, hosts, and producers of this podcasts do not necessarily reflect those of Pace University.

Since 1906, Pace University has been transforming the lives of its diverse students—academically, professionally, and socioeconomically. With campuses in New York City and Westchester County, New York, Pace offers bachelor, master, and doctoral degree programs to 13,600 students in its College of Health Professions, Dyson College of Arts and Sciences, Elisabeth Haub School of Law, Lubin School of Business, School of Education, Seidenberg School of Computer Science and Information Systems and, most recently, the Sands College of Performing Arts.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Grant: In the Podlight is hosted on SANDS Talks, the official podcast platform of the SANDS College of Performing Arts at Pace University. 

[00:00:07] Caroline: Hi, I'm Caroline 

[00:00:08] Grant: and I'm Grant. 

[00:00:09] Caroline: [00:00:10] Welcome to In the Podlight, where we spotlight creatives from different identities and experiences. 

[00:00:15] Grant: Join us as we illuminate how they blaze a path forward through the challenges and [00:00:20] opportunities of a post pandemic entertainment industry.

[00:00:22] Caroline: On today's episode, we're so delighted to have not one, but two director's extraordinaire with [00:00:30] us. Both are veterans of the regional theater scene, and more importantly, our dear friends and colleagues, Kim Montelibano Heil and [00:00:40] Victor Vazquez. Victor has an extensive career that spans regional theater to Broadway to TV and film.

[00:00:48] Caroline: He is a sought after casting [00:00:50] director due in part to his fierce commitment to the arts. and authentic storytelling, and Kim is a highly regarded casting director and producer, an [00:01:00] advocate for artists, a self proclaimed third culture kid, look at that, she currently serves as the artistic producer and head of casting at the Old Globe Theater in San [00:01:10] Diego, where she plays a pivotal role in shaping the artistic vision of the company.

[00:01:15] Grant: Kim and Victor make me so hopeful. Full for the future of regional theater, and they're both so open and share [00:01:20] so many personal experiences that highlight how the industry is continually evolving. We chat about the current state and future of regional theater and the broader impact of regional theaters on the American [00:01:30] theater landscape, especially when it comes to nurturing new works and underrepresented voices.

[00:01:34] Grant: Kim and Victor offer so many impactful and meaningful ideas for our listeners to keep in mind as they make their way on [00:01:40] their creative journey. 

[00:01:41] Caroline: Let's shed some light. Hey. Hi. 

[00:01:43] Grant: Hi, 

[00:01:44] Caroline: Kim. Hi, Victor. 

[00:01:46] Grant: Hello. Hi, everyone. So happy to have you here today. 

[00:01:49] Victor: Happy [00:01:50] to be here. Thanks. 

[00:01:50] Grant: We're just so excited to be having this conversation about regional theater, regional theater, casting and producing.

[00:01:56] Grant: And I think just one of the first questions I want to address and ask and hear you speak [00:02:00] on is the significance that the regional theater has had on what we consider the canon of American works. 

[00:02:07] Kim: Well, I'll just, Start by saying, I think one of the [00:02:10] advantages of being a regional theater is that we produce a season.

[00:02:14] Kim: We have a home, a physical home. The Old Globe has been in San Diego since 1935. So [00:02:20] there's this real legacy happening here. But because of that, I think there's a stability and a consistency that we can offer to artists. So we do a lot of [00:02:30] commissions. We have playwright commissions. We have director commissions, which is really when we ask a director that we've collaborated with.

[00:02:38] Kim: Do you have an idea [00:02:40] or is there a kind of performance that is intriguing you, inspiring you, you want to explore? We'll support that. So the idea really is that we are in relationship [00:02:50] and a continuous relationship with many artists. We've got not only our commissions, we've also got our resident artists, but from those relationships, we hope we will yield.

[00:02:59] Kim: Some [00:03:00] great new work, new plays, new styles of direction, new ideas surrounding design. And so I find that to be maybe not [00:03:10] necessarily unique to the regional theater, but certainly it's a kind of environment that the regional theater network can provide to artists because [00:03:20] of our sort of stability and our ability to be in one place.

[00:03:24] Kim: Give them a space to work in, give them a staff who's in residence at the [00:03:30] theater, give them artists who are local to the community to really focus on what they want to work on. So yeah, I, I feel like certainly with the globe, that's just something that's been [00:03:40] really important to us in terms of contributing to the American theater canon and particularly in terms of underrepresented voices and.

[00:03:49] Kim: BIPOC [00:03:50] artists, we've really made an effort to uplift those stories that we're just not seeing. 

[00:03:55] Victor: Kim, I'm so glad you went first because you have such a insightful [00:04:00] analysis of that working at the Old Globe right now. For me, I used to work in regional theaters. I was at Center Theater Group, I was at Pasadena Playhouse, and I was at Arena Stage.

[00:04:09] Victor: [00:04:10] So going from West Coast to East Coast, and now I work as an independent casting director And I have to say that I love the way that I get to plug into the regional theater [00:04:20] network as an independent casting director because working inside a regional theater is hard. It's a lot of work. I mean, they are these really well oiled [00:04:30] machines that, to Kim's point, are Labs, their development labs, their R and D, like the research and development is happening in these theaters, [00:04:40] right?

[00:04:40] Victor: They're reinvigorating the classics. They're also creating new work. They're working with local artists, working with national and international artists. So it's just from a producing [00:04:50] standpoint, it's a big assignment to have. a continuous season, right? For me, my appreciation and the way that I plug into the regional theater [00:05:00] network now is mostly through even regional tryouts.

[00:05:03] Victor: And so what that means is for instance, having worked recently on soul train, [00:05:10] it's, uh, it's called a hippest trip, the soul train musical, which you will hopefully see it on Broadway next year that had a regional Production and tryout at ACT [00:05:20] in San Francisco this past September. And even with Real Women Have Curves, the musical, which will be on Broadway, hopefully as well in spring, 2025, had a [00:05:30] regional production and tryout at ART Harvard in Boston, right?

[00:05:34] Victor: And so what we get to do also is craft these really beautiful [00:05:40] productions with an artistic team and a producing team and put them in front of an audience. Right. Whether it's San Diego or San Francisco or Boston [00:05:50] to learn from that process, because having an audience is a whole different segment of the art.

[00:05:58] Victor: And so then by the time it gets to [00:06:00] Broadway, then it would have been worked through several stages of development, whether it was the workshop to the regional production, to then the [00:06:10] Broadway, and then you see a tour End of Audio Right? And then you start seeing it pop up everywhere. To me, that's just the impact of regional theater for me is what comes out of it [00:06:20] is new, new art.

[00:06:21] Victor: It's, it's new stories. It's, it's the, they are these incredible engines that get to be part of the bigger process of [00:06:30] creating. That's not just creating in LA or New York or London, these regional theaters are all over the country. 

[00:06:36] Kim: Can I just also add, and thank you Victor for naming how hard [00:06:40] it is, it's very difficult, but I think for a lot of people they think of Newark, the end all be all result for Newark should be New York, [00:06:50] right, or should be Broadway, should be some kind of commercial Life after it's regional life.

[00:06:56] Kim: And I'll just say not necessarily right. Like that. A [00:07:00] lot of artists aren't writing for that market necessarily. A lot of artists want to, first of all, just tell a story, but also I know that that a play [00:07:10] like English, for instance, that won the Pulitzer and is going to the, to Broadway, but had the most robust regional theater life.

[00:07:19] Kim: And [00:07:20] I think in some ways an unexpected. Regional theater life, but really has been one of those new plays, new way of telling a story, [00:07:30] a community that is underrepresented that has just taken the regional theater market by storm in a really wonderful way. And I don't believe the [00:07:40] playwright was aiming necessarily for a commercial life or for Broadway.

[00:07:43] Kim: As I understand it, she wrote that as part of her thesis, I think in graduate school. And so it's just one of those [00:07:50] wonderful turn of events. But I'm just happy to know that having a regional life for a new piece of work is just as much a marker [00:08:00] of success as a New York premiere. That's really beautiful.

[00:08:04] Caroline: I want to talk about casting since we are casting directors. In film, you [00:08:10] talk about this beautiful process in regional theater. In film, there is a process in attaching talent, in developing a script that may [00:08:20] take years There is also something similar in development with television. A lot of people don't see that.

[00:08:25] Caroline: What they see is the product, and then it lives or dies. And it may have a [00:08:30] following and a different life. It may move to a different network, different studio over time. How, and this is a broad question, so please step into it any way you wish. [00:08:40] How is The casting process for you in regional theater, richer, more challenging, similar [00:08:50] to our casting process in film and TV.

[00:08:52] Kim: I'm gonna let Victor start. 

[00:08:53] Victor: One of the wonderful things that I think that we are seeing now, right, is this real playground of actors [00:09:00] participating all across the board. Because back in the day, TV wasn't as respected as films were, and so to do TV felt like a step down right to the [00:09:10] industry. And now TV is the most prestige, right?

[00:09:14] Victor: So I think that these things change, but right now what I'm excited most by as a [00:09:20] casting director is that the industry really understands the equilibrium that's necessary for an actor to participate in all three of these [00:09:30] fields, right? TV, theater and film. And if you've got all three of those, that is a talented, talented MF actor, like that is [00:09:40] a real prize right there.

[00:09:42] Victor: If you can play in all three of those fields. And I think for actors, they want to participate in all that. What an incredible challenge to be able to play in [00:09:50] those spaces across the board. And so for me, I think the thing that I'm having the most fun is Is that I get to talk to agents and managers and that they have a respect for it.

[00:09:58] Victor: They have an [00:10:00] understanding that theater is respected and it's not looked down at. And I really appreciate that. I come from theater. I love theater. I work in TV. I work in film. And so I [00:10:10] get to do all of that, but it's nice to have the community understand the importance of all three of those spaces. The last thing I'll say on this one is that to your point, Carolyn, is [00:10:20] that these Developments take such a long time.

[00:10:22] Victor: It's like with Soul Train, I've been on that project for four years. It'll be five years on it before it ever sees [00:10:30] Broadway. And people don't understand that long game part, which is to say that there are many, many, many, many, if not most projects That have [00:10:40] tremendously long timelines and one of our things that we have to all do is play this Tetris of timeline and process because it's so funny to [00:10:50] like have a film come out and you're like, Oh yeah, I worked on that three years ago.

[00:10:52] Victor: Yeah. And you forget about it. 

[00:10:54] Grant: Kim, maybe you can come at the question slightly differently since we're already here. You're seeing in New York on [00:11:00] Broadway and the commercial theater, the pressure to attach name to it to sell tickets, right? Do you find that in the regional space, do you feel the same kind of demand [00:11:10] or pressure?

[00:11:10] Grant: Does it give project to project a sort of name talent or recognizable talent in it? How does that impact you in the regional space? 

[00:11:17] Kim: Yeah, absolutely. One of the things about being in [00:11:20] San Diego is that we have two regional theaters, the Old Globe and La Jolla Playhouse, that which has also been around for decades.

[00:11:26] Kim: We have a real legacy [00:11:30] of bringing Excellent actors, many of whom have film and TV careers to our audiences. So by now there [00:11:40] actually is a bit of an expectation that that caliber will be met with all projects. Now, one can argue that the idea of a [00:11:50] name actor is different. Generation to generation, right? I won't name names, but I'm currently casting a show that has a [00:12:00] marquee role.

[00:12:00] Kim: And we reached out to someone who members of our senior staff were super excited about. And then my daughter, who's 18 and her [00:12:10] generation and basically anyone under 30, we're like, who? And the rest of us were like, you have no idea. But the reality is, is that most of our audiences [00:12:20] are. Over 40, right?

[00:12:21] Kim: They're the ones buying tickets. And yet we also have the objective of expanding our audience and inviting new [00:12:30] audiences, including younger audiences. So you don't want to just say, well, this is going to be for the over 40 set. No, you do want. To cast people who are going [00:12:40] to resonate and appeal to a wide population.

[00:12:43] Kim: So it is challenging. And it's also interesting in terms of training because, and people can argue [00:12:50] that if they're a TV and film actor, that folks who are TV and film actors had the same training that theater actors do, but it is a different medium and there are different demands. So at the end of the [00:13:00] day, I still have to fill a 600 seat house.

[00:13:02] Kim: And yes, we amplify with mics, but I need someone who's going to be understood by the folks in the back of the house. I need folks who [00:13:10] understand that there's something to this idea of filling a room as opposed to your closeup, right? It is a skill set. It is a different medium. But to a So, I assume that just because you do [00:13:20] one medium means you can instantly be excellent at the other isn't necessarily true, but yes, it is a constant tug of war to try to do a little bit of [00:13:30] what we call stunt casting, and it definitely, for our audiences, it does matter, but that said, I've cast non names who are just incredible.

[00:13:39] Kim: And [00:13:40] they absolutely wow the audiences in the same way that a celebrity might with their performance. So it all depends on the show. 

[00:13:47] Grant: And I still believe that regional theater can be a star making [00:13:50] vehicle. 

[00:13:50] Kim: Oh, I just saw a picture the other day. It was like a black and white photo of John Voight doing Shakespeare here.

[00:13:57] Kim: And he looked like he was. I mean, he was really [00:14:00] young, Annette Bening and just so many people have started here at the Globe. A lot of great people come through here. 

[00:14:06] Grant: A little bit of a pivot in a slightly different direction is just some of [00:14:10] the economics of regional theater we want to touch on and specifically, like, have you seen coming out of it now, four years later, the impacts that the strikes and the pandemic have had [00:14:20] on your seasons or your regional market?

[00:14:22] Kim: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. It all affected us. And certainly I, I'm [00:14:30] on the board of the National New Play Network, which is also a membership organization of smaller theaters. And we talk about how people are surviving, how people are making their budgets [00:14:40] work. And it is an ongoing struggle. Quite honestly, retaining audiences, programming shows that have to compete with the [00:14:50] pandemic habit of just staying at home and watching Netflix.

[00:14:52] Kim: And so, I feel like it's gotten better, and certainly the globe has figured out ways to, to thrive, [00:15:00] but We're not necessarily at pre pandemic levels in terms of audiences. And yes, we've had to make some cuts to runs. We were [00:15:10] looking at approximately a 40 percent increase in production expenses, and that's huge, huge.

[00:15:14] Kim: So not only are. Are your income projections down? You also have to spend [00:15:20] more, which creates a bigger delta between just existing and being able to meet all your expenses. And so it's been a challenge for sure. 

[00:15:29] Caroline: I'm [00:15:30] wondering, let's just stay on expenses for a second. So what are the expenses? Associated with casting in my purview, somebody outside.

[00:15:38] Caroline: I'm thinking, okay, you're going to job [00:15:40] in somebody that's an expense. But are there other expenses to consider? Because we are viewing global majority. We are being more [00:15:50] open and including A lot more underrepresented groups. Can we go there? 

[00:15:56] Victor: Yeah. I would say that what I've seen in the last few years is just even a [00:16:00] tightening of those pockets in terms of salaries.

[00:16:02] Victor: Because regional theaters operate under actors' equity contracts, they have to abide by [00:16:10] the weekly minimum salaries that their theaters are assigned. So that means that if you work at a certain theater, there is a certain baseline of what your [00:16:20] salary as an actor will be for working at that, on that stage, at that theater.

[00:16:25] Victor: Different theaters have different, uh, stages that then, uh, [00:16:30] offer different baseline salaries depending on the size. So that information can all be found in actors equity with AEA. But, but to that point is to [00:16:40] engage talent of caliber. Oftentimes we have to be able to negotiate above that line. We have to be able to go above rates right [00:16:50] above the minimum rate and a lot of theaters aren't able to afford that they keep their terms most favored nations MFN with salaries and with perks [00:17:00] and a lot of actors and their reps unfortunately don't see that as attractive and so it's challenging to ask [00:17:10] somebody like an actor to leave their home whether it's New York or LA or wherever they reside.

[00:17:15] Victor: To then go move to a different community, wherever the regional [00:17:20] theater is at to work there and rehearse there for two months, three months at a minimum salary. That is very challenging when we [00:17:30] cannot negotiate upwards above that. So I would say that that's one. The other thing that I just want to give us sort of like case study is I was working with a theater about two years [00:17:40] ago, doing a play where one of the characters is a.

[00:17:44] Victor: A person with a disability and we were intentionally doing a casting [00:17:50] process that was only to engage actors who live in this world with a disability. And one of our finalists was an [00:18:00] actor who had a disability and she, they were fantastic and ultimately the theater could not proceed to hire them.

[00:18:07] Victor: Because of all the added cost [00:18:10] that it would take to engage that actor and they didn't determine that or make that determination until the moment came to make the offer, [00:18:20] unfortunately, 

[00:18:20] Kim: yeah, just piggyback on that idea. Thank you for Again, naming just how we're limited in regional theater by the union [00:18:30] contracts that we are bound to and also by budget and just the reality is, and the old globe is one of the largest budgets in the nation.

[00:18:38] Kim: I think we're at least in the top [00:18:40] 10, if not in five in terms of budget size, but I would also just say that time is money and now, and I know Victor absolutely does this because he's [00:18:50] one of the most thoughtful and. insightful people I know in the casting industry. We talk more. We have so many conversations about [00:19:00] casting and about the actors that we want and how we might imagine a story to be told, perhaps in a way that isn't obvious on the page.

[00:19:09] Kim: I mean, one of the [00:19:10] things that I try to do with my directors on new plays, especially is to say, have you imagined a person with a disability in any of these [00:19:20] roles? Have you imagined a different gender with these roles? And so to have those conversations takes time. And then again, as Victor mentioned. It [00:19:30] sounds like, and I have nothing but empathy and respect for a theater that is trying to do the right thing, but if you don't have the time on the front [00:19:40] end to plan for unexpected costs, like having to accommodate an actor's disability via maybe the scenic design.[00:19:50] 

[00:19:50] Kim: Or the costume design, if that time is not there, that can be more of a deterrent than the cost because things take [00:20:00] time and, and yes, time is money. Ultimately, you can kind of find money somewhere. Maybe you find a donor who's willing to subsidize an aspect [00:20:10] of your budget, but you can't make time up that goes away.

[00:20:13] Kim: So to be thoughtful, those things take time and. Oftentimes, [00:20:20] we don't plan for that additional time. I'd say like since 2020, I spend a minimum of an additional five hours a week [00:20:30] specifically on making sure EDI goals are being met. And those five hours have to be squeezed in, in that week [00:20:40] when the producing part hasn't changed.

[00:20:42] Kim: That hasn't gotten easier. So I have to find those five hours in other, just from my life, basically. So that that's been [00:20:50] challenging too. And I'd say that the, that piece of it is very important, at least in my casting practice. And I know it is in Victor's too. 

[00:20:56] Grant: We're skipping around because you're going.

[00:20:58] Grant: Sort of directly where we [00:21:00] wanted to take the conversation. I think it, it is so important that we tell stories with greater representation, tell stories with more authenticity and even adjust the [00:21:10] accessibility in our theaters backstage. I guess I'm wondering if you can speak to as producers, casting directors, who are searching for equitable [00:21:20] opportunities and representation, have there been moments where you've all felt in any capacity that you've worn, that you've, succeeded in [00:21:30] assuring equitability or have there been battles that you've gone into and perhaps had to compromise or lose?

[00:21:39] Victor: Every day [00:21:40] grant. Come on. Yep. Every day. Unfortunately, that's true. I think it sadly is an everyday effort and sometimes I think I can speak for all of us. We fail and [00:21:50] sometimes we succeed and sometimes we want to give up. And one example for me is, I think the thing I want to start off and prime this conversation with is just some data.

[00:21:59] Victor: [00:22:00] Because I think that there's a lot of arguments out there and particularly breaks my spirit every single time I see somebody talk about affirmative action in a way that they assume or [00:22:10] say that that's somebody who does not have the qualifications as being considered. That's a really unfortunate logic because.

[00:22:17] Victor: To be in this industry takes a lot of [00:22:20] talent and a lot of skill set, to Kim's point. And you can't just put anybody in front of a camera or on stage. That's just not the way it works. Part of my job, [00:22:30] and particularly with an example like Real Woman Have Curves, here's a story that has existed in the canon in terms of, it was once a play written by a [00:22:40] UCLA student named Josef Lopez that then turned into a feature film with America Ferreira.

[00:22:45] Victor: And became an instant classic in the indie space and decades [00:22:50] later is now being turned into a musical set for broadway this cast Includes Latinas of all shapes and sizes [00:23:00] with many of varying skin tones to represent Latina community. To me, what was important in that process and speaking with [00:23:10] producers who invited me to meet with them at the Trump tower in New York city.

[00:23:14] Victor: Just going to add that was that I said and advocated that if I enter this [00:23:20] process, we need to look for. Latino talent all over the country, and perhaps even all over the world that we're not going to find that talent alone in New York City, [00:23:30] because demographic speaking, we cannot just focus on the Latino community in New York City, albeit very rich Latino community, it's [00:23:40] not representative of the 33 nations, or even just the A huge demographic of Mexican folks, which is what the story is about.

[00:23:48] Victor: It takes place in LA [00:23:50] and me being from Los Angeles and being Mexican. It's very important that we honor that representation, particularly at that level on that stage. [00:24:00] And so I started with an open call in Los Angeles in Boyle Heights, where the story takes place. That was my first stop in the casting process.

[00:24:07] Victor: And I've been casting that [00:24:10] project for about 18 months now. Ongoing. The search for Ana alone I looked through over 7, 500 resumes for one role, but we [00:24:20] were auditioning Mexicans in Germany, not just here in the United States. I, I feel like we hear about this sort of like this [00:24:30] thing, this assumption that, well, we looked everywhere and we just couldn't find it.

[00:24:33] Victor: And that's not necessarily true because we are out there. These actors are out there. They just [00:24:40] haven't been what Has been mainstream, they are not part of what we typically see in story across the board. [00:24:50] And so I'm particularly proud of the way that that cast has been shaped and formed. There was a lot of intention in forming it and I can't wait for the world to see it.

[00:24:59] Victor: But [00:25:00] I cannot lie and say that it was easy, it was not. It was very, very challenging and nobody told me as a casting director that I had to do that. [00:25:10] I had to take it upon myself to say, it's very important to me that that representation is honored. And therefore I'm going to make it my mission to go find it.

[00:25:19] Grant: Do you feel that [00:25:20] time and your need for resources was valued and supported? 

[00:25:25] Victor: No, absolutely not. Even currently my manager is currently advocating for what [00:25:30] my agreement means on that project. I'm not afraid to say that because it's true. I mean, it's like when we even as Non white, non caucasian, non [00:25:40] majority sort of people.

[00:25:42] Victor: We have to advocate for ourselves, too, or have representatives advocate for us. I have a manager who represents me, and he has to have these [00:25:50] conversations all the time. He represents the actor Lennady, who was Broadway's Cinderella. And I know that that was even an effort to, [00:26:00] like, make sure that she was compensated correctly for her, her role in that production.

[00:26:06] Victor: So I, I just want to say that, like, your question about [00:26:10] succeeding in equitability, we, like Kim and I and Caroline, we can advocate so much for so many people, and yet we also need advocating for it. 

[00:26:19] Grant: Thank you, Victor. [00:26:20] That's really insightful. Kim, I don't know if you want to add or speak to an experience that you've had, where you've had to be an advocate or have been the recipient of [00:26:30] advocacy at any of this.

[00:26:31] Grant: I'm sure I see you nodding. So I know it resonates. 

[00:26:34] Kim: Absolutely. It's always hard. And I think one of the ways you framed it, Grant, earlier was, [00:26:40] have there been failures? And yeah, and I make mistakes. And I have blind spots. For me personally, my own EDIA work is not [00:26:50] complete. It's an ongoing education. So, the Old Globe produces two Shakespeare's a year.

[00:26:56] Kim: And it's part of our big Shakespeare, Outdoor Shakespeare Festival in the [00:27:00] summer. And this year we are producing Henry VI, which Actually was written in three parts, our artistic director, Barry Ellison. He adapted it into two parts. So it's all [00:27:10] three, but into two parts. And so we haven't essentially a repertory company, which means that the actors are playing multiple roles or maybe just two roles, one [00:27:20] role in part one and another role in part two.

[00:27:22] Kim: Or they play the same character in both parts. Anyway, it's a very complicated matrix of, okay, this [00:27:30] actor's playing this role, then they change, then they're that role. It's incredibly complicated. And one of the roles is Richard, who Is famously a disabled [00:27:40] person in history. But what I've learned is that reports sort of actual reports of his disability were not the same as what [00:27:50] Shakespeare wrote about and Shakespeare greatly exaggerated it and Shakespeare also equated the disability with corruption.

[00:27:58] Kim: Which is a narrative, [00:28:00] obviously, we do not agree with, but how do you navigate that? And that's only in one show. So the actor then has a non disabled character in another show, and we did quite [00:28:10] the search. And I'm, I'm happy to say we have a disabled actor playing both roles, but our company of understudies is our MFA students from [00:28:20] our training program.

[00:28:21] Kim: And so we have 14 MFAs through the University of San Diego. It's a program that we are in partnership with. And so part of their [00:28:30] education and their training is that they do these Shakespeare's. They play roles in both shows, but they also understudy. And that is also, it's not just part of their [00:28:40] education, it's Quite honestly, also a cost cutting measure for us that we don't have to go out and find and hire equity understudies for this large company.

[00:28:49] Kim: And that's just [00:28:50] the way it's been for a while, like years, which I know just that saying is already problematic. So I'll put that aside for a moment, but we do not have a person in our [00:29:00] MFA company who has a disability. We don't have the budget to bring in someone. And so the question becomes. And I actually have to have this [00:29:10] conversation with this, with this understudy, this student, because they're very uncomfortable and rightfully.

[00:29:16] Kim: But how do we handle that? The budgetary reality [00:29:20] is that we are unable to bring someone else just to cover this one track. And so, yeah, I look at that a lot and I go, where could we have done [00:29:30] better? And I'll just say that in terms of that role in particular, we did invest the time and the additional money it took.

[00:29:37] Kim: To find who we had. So [00:29:40] it's already, it's, it's a tricky thing. And honestly, I mean, yeah, sometimes I sit back and I go, Oh my God, am I going to be canceled? I know that's a terrible motivation for things, but like, but like, [00:29:50] or, or is the old globe going to be canceled? And that is a, that is a fear. And that's after I've done the best we can with the resources we have.

[00:29:56] Kim: So yeah, it's hard. 

[00:29:58] Grant: It's really, what you're speaking [00:30:00] to is nuanced and it's just unbelievably. Challenging as you're speaking to business where some the product is what you see and the process is not always [00:30:10] nobody will ever know what goes in the thought. 

[00:30:12] Victor: Yeah, can I can I add to that conversation just because I think that it's a great way to expand because obviously at certain [00:30:20] levels Kim's point it's like there are so many limitations to art making there are so many.

[00:30:25] Victor: So many limitations and challenges and so whatever is [00:30:30] made through that Obviously is is also part of the artistic creative aspect But I want to just go back to this major point that I want to make is that casting [00:30:40] to me is in conversation With politics and culture on a global level to me casting when [00:30:50] we see a film when we see a tv show when we see something on broadway or or even just like You When somebody from the local community goes to the regional theater to [00:31:00] see a play or a musical or something and they see themselves on stage in a way that is so powerful to see yourself.[00:31:10] 

[00:31:10] Victor: is a monumental moment for many of us. And, and so I don't want to take that away from anybody. And to Kim's point, do our best to honor [00:31:20] those moments, to make sure we get it right. There are a lot of times when we cannot get it right. And it's not for lack of effort. It's for lack of resources. It's for lack of [00:31:30] time.

[00:31:30] Victor: It's for lack of X, Y, Z. But I think when we do get it right, It's magical and it's powerful and when we get it wrong on, there's also been instances [00:31:40] for me when, when, when I see that there are resources on the table and a team rejects to use them to do the right thing and that to me is [00:31:50] surprising, but it happens.

[00:31:51] Victor: And that's when I have to have this kind of conversation and say, the choices we make in this room around this table in this casting process will be in [00:32:00] conversation with the current political and culture conversation on a local national and possibly global level. Right? Because if you put out a film [00:32:10] with James Franco playing a Cuban man, Leader that is going to be very problematic for a lot of people for very obvious reasons and it's [00:32:20] because not because Right, and it's not because the argument is as simple as you shouldn't play outside of yourself, right?

[00:32:28] Victor: It's not that simple [00:32:30] actually the argument is When you have a co a community of people or peoples who are constantly [00:32:40] underrepresented and they finally have an opportunity for one of them to have a job, and you don't access that community to give said [00:32:50] job, that is real impact, right? And it's a real failure.

[00:32:54] Victor: And so to me, I think that those conversations are Particularly important when we start [00:33:00] understanding the expansiveness of what it means, particularly as projects get bigger and bigger and bigger, have bigger resources and that we still [00:33:10] fail to meet the mark. 

[00:33:11] Caroline: So I'm going to go into the next question.

[00:33:13] Caroline: We're wondering. Do you find regions with different demographics have the same [00:33:20] objectives to create equitable opportunities? And along with that, because of so much that's been shared now, it's like, how does an actor even [00:33:30] thrive? Do we have, does an actor need to move to a coast to succeed? And even then, is that, is it even possible?

[00:33:39] Kim: So [00:33:40] I think I can have a little bit of an, at least anecdotal answer to that. I mean, I've only ever produced theater. In Southern California. So I can't [00:33:50] speak to any personal experience anywhere else. Well, that, I mean, I worked on, I worked with a couple of Broadway producers early in my career, but that's different.

[00:33:59] Kim: [00:34:00] But again, just to mention again, that I, I sit on the board of the national new play network. I I'm in conversation a lot with folks all over the country and what they're doing. [00:34:10] And I I'll say that the scrappy nature of actors has not gone away. It. We're a community of folks who will find a way to do the thing we just love so [00:34:20] much.

[00:34:20] Kim: And that always just gives me a lot of hope and a lot of pride in, in my fellow theater worker. But the regional [00:34:30] aspect of it is very real. Now, As I understand it, there are communities around the country that have very strong theater [00:34:40] communities. And just to give an example, I mentioned Washington, D. C.

[00:34:43] Kim: They have a fantastic theater community. Minneapolis, the Twin Cities, has [00:34:50] a great theater community. There are more in, obviously, the Chicago storefront theaters and their professional theaters. I [00:35:00] Have friends who work in Oregon. There are theaters up there. So let's just put it this way. If you are an actor and you want to work somewhere [00:35:10] because maybe, I don't know, your family owns a home there, whatever it is, look around.

[00:35:15] Kim: You know, maybe it's not an equity theater. Maybe it's not a theater that pays much, but [00:35:20] if what you want to do is your art, a lot of these places and especially non professional places will accommodate their rehearsal schedules, will accommodate people [00:35:30] with day jobs and that will allow you to do semi professional work.

[00:35:34] Kim: I'm always just so delighted to hear about all these different parts of the country that [00:35:40] have maybe in some cases, smaller theater communities are doing good work. There was a show in of all places like this tiny town in Colorado, maybe not so [00:35:50] tiny. Maybe it was Boulder. Anyway, there was a theater there and they did a musical, a new musical.

[00:35:56] Kim: I think it was called Refuge. It's sold out. They extended [00:36:00] over and over again. It was a border story and it just spoke to that community in a way that was somewhat unexpected, but just amazing. [00:36:10] And I think that Curious Theater Company, I think is the name of the theater, but I just hear stories like that where Somehow that new musical or that new [00:36:20] play touches something in that community and it just evolves.

[00:36:25] Kim: And so, yes, I think there is a way for artists to do it. And [00:36:30] Caroline knows this, I used to do it. Actually, Victor was a guest. Caroline, yes. I interviewed a bunch of artists about how they make it work in the industry, and particularly at the time [00:36:40] it was during COVID. I think you just have to be really creative about how you're going to survive and be willing to try different things, be willing to think out of the [00:36:50] box in terms of your sources of income.

[00:36:52] Kim: You don't have to wait tables. Everyone thinks, Oh, Struggling actors, weak people. Some do, but not all. And so I do [00:37:00] think, Caroline, just to maybe speak to a little bit of hope, I think that there are ways to make a life and a good life as an artist all over the country. 

[00:37:09] Victor: To this point, I [00:37:10] just want to highlight the data.

[00:37:11] Victor: In Washington, D. C., the Actors Equity Report stated that actors are employed more weeks out of the year than any other city in the United States of America. [00:37:20] Wow, well, let's move. Isn't that amazing though? Like just to think that that is Washington DC. I mean, I worked at arena stage in DC and I love that theater community [00:37:30] so much because it's thriving in, in its own way.

[00:37:34] Victor: So to students, to actors, I say all the time, like you don't have to just think [00:37:40] about LA or New York these days, or even Chicago. It's like with technology where we're at now, you can live anywhere in the world and participate in [00:37:50] TV and film by auditioning via self tape, which is going to be an ongoing thing.

[00:37:54] Victor: You're not missing out. However, where you want to root yourself in the community that [00:38:00] you want to root yourself, go find the city that you're going to feel like you're thriving in. And I told actors, like, if you want to go do theater, you don't have to move to New York city. [00:38:10] You can get the same or even better credit sometimes by participating or living in a city like Portland, like [00:38:20] Seattle, like Washington, D.

[00:38:21] Victor: C., like Minneapolis, like there's so many places where there are thriving regional networks where they [00:38:30] are Equity houses, so you are on equity contracts and you can make a living as an actor. So that's my first point. My second point here is [00:38:40] just to give some hope to some of these actors out there listening.

[00:38:42] Victor: I taught at NYU for two years at Tisch. Right before they were going to go off into the world. It was literally their final semester. And [00:38:50] I would tell them all the time about Mahershala Ali. So Mahershala Ali graduated from NYU MFA in acting and immediately books a [00:39:00] lead at arena stage right out of grad school.

[00:39:03] Victor: As the lead in the revival of the great white hope, I believe huge role, huge play iconic [00:39:10] gets the attention of a lot of folks because it's like, who is this actor? That's just come out of school and stepped into this leading role on this major stage. My Herschel moves to LA [00:39:20] and then starts auditioning TV and film.

[00:39:23] Victor: And there's this great article in the Rolling Stone that just came out a couple years ago, uh, Rolling Stone magazine that's called The [00:39:30] Quiet Defiance of Mahershala Ali, I believe, and it talks about all this. But Mahershala Ali, it took him like 15 years of auditioning in Los Angeles to really like get [00:39:40] something.

[00:39:41] Victor: Like, I think, I think one of his first like big gigs was like House of Cards as like, I think a co star maybe, like, and just like maybe on a couple [00:39:50] episodes. And it was then the independent film shot in Florida, Moonlight, that then gets him this huge [00:40:00] recognition because of his Academy Award and Best Supporting Actor.

[00:40:04] Victor: But Mahershala Ali knew that he was a leading man, a leading actor, 20 years before [00:40:10] Hollywood did. It took Hollywood 20 years. To understand what Mahershala knew. And I tell actors this all the time. I'm like, if you [00:40:20] know who you are as an artist, it's an incredible. Readable feet, however, it might be challenging because it might take the world or the community at large to recognize and see [00:40:30] that, but your, what's important for you to note is that you must be persistent and determined and find a way to sustain your life as an artist to get to a point [00:40:40] where that intersection might happen for you.

[00:40:42] Victor: And it might not be an Academy award. It might be your first contract, but some of these things take a [00:40:50] long time. That's amazing. 

[00:40:51] Caroline: So, I wanted to give space to anything that you wanted to talk about. What I would 

[00:40:58] Kim: love to just [00:41:00] share, because Caroline and Victor, you shared this with me when I interviewed you many years ago, about how you all made it, or did it.

[00:41:08] Kim: Survived and thrived as [00:41:10] artists in this very unpredictable landscape. I just want to put out there that, well, two things. One is save your money, save, don't be caught up with [00:41:20] FOMO and lifestyle creep and save and invest, invest if you can, but really just save because stability and mental health and knowing that you [00:41:30] have that foundation, financial foundation will help as an artist.

[00:41:33] Kim: We'll help you as you pursue your life and career as an artist, and you can start, you have the advantage of [00:41:40] time right now as young people to do that. That's number one. And number two, live a life. I think sometimes. Maybe it's with training. Maybe it's with being in a [00:41:50] school setting. I see a lot of young artists thinking that who you train with, what method you train, all of those things are the important things we're looking for [00:42:00] in the casting room.

[00:42:01] Kim: That the first thing our eyes go to is their BFA or MFA and it's not. I think we know by now that is just one piece. Of what an [00:42:10] artist brings to a table, live a rich life and go out there and have experiences that will inform your artistry. If you can go somewhere different than where you live, [00:42:20] just to see how other people live and, and realize that part of your job as an artist is to find ways to transform.

[00:42:26] Kim: And the way to do that is to be an observer of the human condition. [00:42:30] I think to me, I feel like being an artist is one of the biggest gifts that we can give humanity and so embrace that and love that. Oh [00:42:40] my goodness. This 

[00:42:41] Caroline: has turned into golden nuggets. I love it. Victor, what would you like to add? 

[00:42:45] Victor: I think for a lot of people, listening.

[00:42:47] Victor: I just want to sort of highlight that one of the things [00:42:50] that I'm sort of confronting at the moment is we think that once we reach certain levels and certain points that they might define something for [00:43:00] us, that they might make us feel Something. It's so odd how that doesn't work. Right? I just, I just want to say like, it's like I worked on a TV show, which [00:43:10] is like this prestige drama that was just released like three months ago.

[00:43:14] Victor: And I haven't watched it. Like, I haven't seen it. It's on Hulu. It's on Disney. I just I haven't [00:43:20] watched it. And there are moments when I'm finding myself really, at the time excited by a project that I get to participate in such an honor. I get to work on [00:43:30] them and then time passes and then I honor that project and I honor its creation and I honor that I was, that I could put my hands on it.

[00:43:37] Victor: And yet the most important [00:43:40] thing that, that I am putting my hands on is my life. It is the people around me. I was living in New York City and I started a company called X casting [00:43:50] and I was so busy working nonstop for years, even during the pandemic. And I was blessed enough to have an abundance of work, [00:44:00] and then my world came crashing down.

[00:44:02] Victor: Two people died in my life back to back that I was very close to, and then my brothers became dads. And I had this [00:44:10] moment of realization that life is so precious. And I had to confront the fact that I did not want to live away [00:44:20] from my family, and I didn't want to miss the time experiencing the development and the growth of my nephew and niece.

[00:44:28] Victor: And so, being [00:44:30] bi coastal, where I'm in Los Angeles and New York now, particularly trying to spend a lot more time in LA, to be with my family, it's one of my most incredible values right now. And so, I [00:44:40] want to just promote that it's important for us to confront and find. What our true value set is and that finding and aligning [00:44:50] ourselves with those values doesn't always have to be about business and industry and career and success because I'm telling you even with, it's like, I have a graduate [00:45:00] degree, I've worked on these great projects and it, nothing is as important as being able to spend the day with my nephew or my nieces and just being able to walk, take a [00:45:10] walk.

[00:45:10] Victor: And think that that actually is the most meaningful part of my life right now. 

[00:45:14] Grant: Yeah, 

[00:45:14] Victor: it's beautiful. 

[00:45:15] Caroline: Love. Ah, tears. 

[00:45:17] Grant: You both have left us with such a [00:45:20] thoughtful place that we should just leave it 

[00:45:22] Victor: there. Can I, can I say something just because I know, you said actors are listening to this, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that one of the nuggets I just want to [00:45:30] leave off with for actors listening is that we have such an, a western, Binary of of pass fail and we just to go back [00:45:40] to this, this thing we're hitting on, which is success.

[00:45:42] Victor: Success is not about passing. It's not about succeeding. It's not about like hitting the mark and failure is not the end of the world, but [00:45:50] we are ingrained with this educational system that marks us with such a binary. And so we understand that success is this pass fail [00:46:00] moment. And for actors, your auditions are not pass fail.

[00:46:04] Victor: Your auditions are not pass fail. Stop trying to like, integrate this [00:46:10] binary that you've understood the world through, this lens, into your acting and artistic practice. When you go into an audition, you're not there to pass. And if you don't get the [00:46:20] job, you did not fail. When you go into an audition, I tell people all the time, look, if it's helpful.

[00:46:24] Victor: I love this analogy of America's Next Top Model where Tyra Banks has all the [00:46:30] models do go sees. I was literally just at Juilliard a month ago and I was telling them about this. In the great words of Tyra Banks in America's Next Top Model, treat your auditions [00:46:40] Juilliard. As a go see and then what's a go see and i'm like a go see is when a model go sees a designer And they try on the clothes and they do their walk and they take their [00:46:50] polaroid and then they leave And they're like show up in their shorts or their pajamas or their sweats and they're just naturally effervescent and glowing and they just go See the designer [00:47:00] you in your lifetime.

[00:47:01] Victor: I hope that you treat auditions as go sees. You're going to go see Caroline. You're going to go see Kim. You're going to go see me. You're going to go see XYZ. Walk into the room [00:47:10] with that sort of effervescence with you yourself, upright, with a tremendous backbone, knowing that you are that supermodel, and do your job, do your thing, [00:47:20] knock out your audition, whatever prep you had to do to make it look easy, do that, and walk out.

[00:47:25] Victor: Because it really is about the relationships you're creating. It's [00:47:30] about the way you walk into the room. It's the way that you make it really pleasurable to spend time with you. That you show up as an artist that respects your artistry and your [00:47:40] craft, and you allow me to see how much you respect and love it.

[00:47:43] Victor: And if you walk in with that sort of anxiety and nervousness that I have to get the job, and you walk out and you feel miserable because [00:47:50] you didn't get it, That's not sustainable as opposed to knowing that you're going to walk into the room. I was just with an actor last night. She's a legend in the Latina space.

[00:47:59] Victor: She was on [00:48:00] Broadway when she was in her twenties, back in the eighties. And that was unheard of. And she was just telling me how she's auditioned for a certain casting director for 20 [00:48:10] years. And then she finally got a role. With that casting director and I was like right because these are the relationships that you just have to keep coming into the room and [00:48:20] go see go see go see and I know it's hard because the reward might not yield fast enough or consistent enough but If you approach it [00:48:30] with the binary of pass fail, it's going to destroy you.

[00:48:33] Victor: So don't do that. 

[00:48:34] Caroline: Don't do that. We're going to move on to the lightning round and [00:48:40] close this beautiful conversation. These are out of the box. This is no longer regional casting. This is a go see to your inner life. All [00:48:50] right, first question to both of you, what is a favorite family tradition or chosen family tradition that you enjoy?

[00:48:59] Kim: I'll [00:49:00] just say, cause it just happened recently. It's not a tradition. It's just a little habit that my family has that I just love. And especially now that my daughter is in college, but she came home [00:49:10] recently and so anytime the four of us. My husband, my son, and my daughter, me, and our dog are in one room.

[00:49:18] Kim: One of the kids says, all of the [00:49:20] family is in the kitchen or all of the family is in the living room. So we always name it and we hadn't done it in so long. And so when my daughter came home, and [00:49:30] then my teenage son said it, and now he has this like deep voice, but he used to say it in this like little toddler voice, just melted my heart.

[00:49:38] Kim: Oh my gosh, [00:49:40] love. 

[00:49:40] Victor: My grandparents, they're very important figures in our family, and they both passed away recently. And we always have pictures of them at the [00:49:50] table whenever we have an event. 

[00:49:51] Grant: I love 

[00:49:52] Victor: that. 

[00:49:52] Grant: Beautiful. Okay, one, uh, one maybe two more. If you could compete in the Olympics, which [00:50:00] sport would you compete in and why?

[00:50:01] Kim: I'm not athletic at all. Can I just say what I would have loved to have, like, cried at some point? Synchronized [00:50:10] swimming. I would have loved to, like, learn how to hold my breath for that long and be super cool kicking my legs out of the water and pointing my toes. 

[00:50:18] Victor: Uh, funny because I [00:50:20] would say swimming as well.

[00:50:21] Victor: Not synchronized swimming, but the, the sort of Michael Phelps swimming. That's what I would be mine. 

[00:50:26] Caroline: All right, next one. What is the very first [00:50:30] music you ever bought or first concert you went to? 

[00:50:34] Victor: Mine is so embarrassing. 

[00:50:35] Caroline: Okay, 

[00:50:37] Victor: this is how I know, I know, [00:50:40] I, this is how I knew I was gay, is I The first cd I ever bought I made my mom take me to the mall when cds were around [00:50:50] and I bought the cd Of eden's crush.

[00:50:53] Victor: I can't believe I even remember that you don't even know what eden's crush is. It's the first making of the band sort of like [00:51:00] TV show it. It was like one of those first reality TV shows. Yeah, it was. It was Eden's Crush and I was like so obsessed with it and it was an all [00:51:10] girl group and I made my mom take me to the mall to buy it.

[00:51:12] Grant: I just Googled it. I didn't know what it was. I just Googled it. But I recognized the cover art. I'm 

[00:51:17] Victor: now Googling 

[00:51:17] Grant: it. 

[00:51:18] Kim: I 

[00:51:18] Victor: haven't seen it in 

[00:51:19] Kim: a long time. Oh God. [00:51:20] That's crazy. I think my first concert, honestly, 'cause I didn't grow up in the US. So, when I came to the U. S., concerts were a new thing and I think my first [00:51:30] concert was Lollapalooza 1993.

[00:51:33] Caroline: Wow. 

[00:51:34] Grant: These are great answers. 

[00:51:36] Caroline: Amazing. It's always wonderful to have these conversations with [00:51:40] you. We've had them for years, but to really have a specific topic and how you deepened and expanded it to a really beautiful, [00:51:50] in a beautiful way, I just really appreciate your time and your energy and all that.

[00:51:54] Grant: Kim and Victor, we can't thank you enough for the time that you've shared with us and the [00:52:00] amazing offerings that you've given to our listeners and to each other and to all of us in this space today. Profound, profoundly insightful, profoundly thoughtful. 

[00:52:09] Kim: Thank you [00:52:10] guys so much. This was really lovely. 

[00:52:12] Grant: So much to unpack with this conversation.

[00:52:15] Grant: I love the amount of passion both Kim and Victor have for the work they do, and their belief that [00:52:20] regional theaters serve as vital incubators for new works, innovative artistic practices, and how these theaters can contribute to the American Dramatic Canyon by offering stability, resources, [00:52:30] and consistent platforms for artists to develop their craft.

[00:52:33] Caroline: Yes. to all of that. Victor and Kim are such amazing [00:52:40] advocates and warriors for good. Their point about the deep connection between personal values and your professional life in the arts is so [00:52:50] important for all creatives to learn. And finally, Part of the reason I love them so much is that they are both such champions for representation and [00:53:00] inclusion, knowing how critical it is that everyone gets the chance to see themselves on stage and or on screen.

[00:53:09] Grant: You [00:53:10] can follow Victor on Instagram at Victor Victor V and at X casting NYC and Kim on Instagram at the Nuance 2020. [00:53:20] 

[00:53:20] Caroline: And if you're interested in what Kim and the Old Globe Theater are working on. Check out their website at theoldglobe. org. The links are in the show notes. 

[00:53:28] Grant: Thanks so much for listening to In the [00:53:30] Podlight.

[00:53:30] Grant: If these conversations resonate with you, follow on SANDS Talks or wherever you get your podcasts. Visit our website at inthepodlight. com. Until next time, step into [00:53:40] your light. Since 

[00:53:40] Caroline: 1906, Pace University has been transforming the lives of its students with bachelor, master, and doctoral degree programs with campuses in New York City and Westchester [00:53:50] County.

[00:53:50] Caroline: For more information, visit Pace. edu. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed by the guests, hosts, and producers of this podcast do not necessarily reflect those of Pace [00:54:00] University.