In the Podlight: Raja Benz & Greg Geffrard - The Intimacy Professional

Summary: In this episode, Raja Benz and Greg Geffrard, intimacy professionals, discuss their roles in the performing arts, emphasizing the importance of consent, cultural competency, and creating safe spaces for performers. They explore the complexities of intimacy work, the challenges they face in a predominantly white field, and the significance of representation in storytelling. The conversation highlights the evolving nature of intimacy work in the entertainment industry and the need for ongoing advocacy and education to ensure that all voices are heard and respected.

Takeaways

• Intimacy professionals advocate for ethical representation in performance.
• Creating a consent-based environment is crucial for safety.
• Cultural competency is essential in intimacy work.
• The role of intimacy professionals is evolving in the industry.
• Comfort and discomfort are inherent in storytelling.
• Intimacy work requires understanding power dynamics.
• Education in intimacy practices is vital for future generations.
• Resistance to intimacy professionals often stems from misunderstanding their role.
• The intimacy field must address barriers to entry for diverse voices.
• Advocacy for vulnerable individuals in performance spaces is essential.
• Regional theaters are crucial for developing new works and voices.
• Casting in regional theater involves a different set of challenges compared to film and TV.
• The pandemic has significantly impacted the economics of regional theater.
• Advocating for representation in casting is an ongoing effort.
• Success in the arts is not a binary of pass or fail.
• Actors can thrive outside of major cities like New York and LA.
• Building relationships in the industry is key to long-term success.
• Personal values should align with professional goals in the arts.
• The journey of an actor requires persistence and adaptability.
• Community support is vital for artists to flourish.

Chapters
00:00 -  Introduction to Intimacy Professionals
02:36  - Understanding the Role of Intimacy Professionals
06:50 -  Creating Safe Spaces in Performance
10:40  - Navigating Comfort and Discomfort in Storytelling
15:41 Cultural Competency in Intimacy Work
19:57 - The Intersection of Identity and Intimacy
26:33 - Progress and Challenges in the Field
32:42 - The Future of Intimacy Work
36:22 - Addressing Resistance and Legitimacy
40:34 - The Role of Power Dynamics
48:37 - Who Advocates for Intimacy Professionals?
54:21 - Conclusion and Future Directions 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Grant: In the Podlight is hosted on SANDS talks talks talks talks talks. The official podcast platform of the SANDS talks talks talks talks College of Performing Arts at Pace University. 

[00:00:07] Caroline: Hi, I'm Caroline. 

[00:00:08] Grant: And I'm Grant. 

[00:00:09] Caroline: [00:00:10] Welcome to In the Podlight, where we spotlight creatives from different identities and experiences. 

[00:00:15] Grant: Join us as we illuminate how they blaze a path forward through the challenges and [00:00:20] opportunities of a post pandemic entertainment industry.

[00:00:22] Caroline: On today's episode, we have the honor of sitting down with two distinguished intimacy professionals. Raja [00:00:30] Bens and Greg Geffrard. As a Filipina trans woman, Raja brings a vital and unique perspective to her work, advocating for the ethical [00:00:40] representation of underrepresented communities in theater and film.

[00:00:43] Caroline: Her expertise lies in navigating into complexities of power dynamic. And her work is driven [00:00:50] by the commitment to creating safe, empowering spaces where all voices are respected and where the stories of underrepresented communities are told with [00:01:00] integrity and care. And Greg is a respected intimacy director, choreographer, and educator known for his expertise in creating safe and culturally [00:01:10] competent environmental spaces.

[00:01:11] Caroline: in the performing arts as guiding faculty members with the actual intimacy education. They are both dedicated to training [00:01:20] the next generation of artists and intimacy professionals, emphasizing the importance of consent and the ethical representation of diverse stories on stage. [00:01:30] 

[00:01:30] Grant: Raja and Greg are so passionate about the work they do and open a window into a part of the industry that is new and necessary.

[00:01:38] Grant: We discuss how they see their [00:01:40] roles as intimacy professionals and how important it is to create a safe and consent based environment. We also explore the importance of cultural competency and the power dynamics at play in the [00:01:50] entertainment industry and how those factors affect the evolving nature of intimacy coordination as a profession.

[00:01:56] Grant: So much for our listeners. to think about and implement into their own creative [00:02:00] practices. 

[00:02:01] Caroline: Let's shed some light. Hi! Hey Greg! Raja! 

[00:02:04] Grant: Hello! Hello. Hi, thank you for joining us today. It's so great to have you, Raja and Greg. 

[00:02:09] Raja: Thank [00:02:10] you. Yeah, I'm so glad to be here. 

[00:02:11] Caroline: I'm just gonna kick it off. With I think intimacy professionals, intimacy coordinators, it's a new ish [00:02:20] thought for people.

[00:02:22] Caroline: And so our understanding in our research is your advocates, your liaisons between the actors and production that you work with the performers, but [00:02:30] you also work with production and the teams, safety protocols, those kinds of things. And You serve the director's vision. So that's beautiful [00:02:40] on paper, but to frame for our audience, what is an intimacy professional and how do they work in the production process?

[00:02:49] Caroline: And for each [00:02:50] of you, what is that framework born out of? 

[00:02:53] Greg: Ooh, okay. Raja, do you want to take coordinator and I'll take director, choreographer? 

[00:02:58] Raja: So even right [00:03:00] off the bat, intimacy professionals hold many different titles. And interestingly enough, the titling of the intimacy professional is actually somewhat [00:03:10] politicized and an interesting sort of debate that's ongoing in as new a field as it is.

[00:03:15] Raja: And I'll just highlight, cause I know we'll circle back to this. Note that I said, what [00:03:20] a new field this is. These practices are not new, this field is. And I know this will be a central theme that we come back to, but when we're talking an [00:03:30] intimacy coordinator, so this is somebody who works in filmed media, so television, your movies, your TV, also stop motion capture.

[00:03:38] Raja: Intimacy coordinators have started to [00:03:40] enter gaming spaces. And what we do is we work as a centralized team body and we're advocating to become more than single person [00:03:50] departments, and we're slowly making head in this field, but we work with the communication amongst departments. Um, you could see us almost as the head of a department in some way, where we're [00:04:00] handling that level of communication amongst production, with the performers, with all of the teams involved in whatever a certain shot, a certain moment.[00:04:10] 

[00:04:10] Raja: So the title in coordination specifically refers to the amount of pre production that we do in the coordination realm. Um, which is fundamentally different than in the theater [00:04:20] realm where we might use the titles intimacy director or I know I personally prefer intimacy choreographer. But our notable differences for being an intimacy coordinator are [00:04:30] There's comparable and transferable skills, but they're fundamentally different roles, in how they time out, where priority is dedicated.

[00:04:38] Raja: Set culture is a very [00:04:40] specific thing that isn't translatable to theater rehearsal culture. Navigating those specifics, and ultimately working as a person who advocates for SAG [00:04:50] AFTRA protocols on set. Best practices for health and sanitation, uh, best practices for consent, anti harassment. And then when you get to the level of what I believe Greg and [00:05:00] I do, cultural competency, telling competent stories about cultures and working as an advocate for the ethical representation, the [00:05:10] authentic representation of communities that we tell the stories of intimacy about.

[00:05:15] Raja: Greg, do you want to talk a bit about sort of the theater of it all though? Yes, 

[00:05:19] Greg: Raja. So we're [00:05:20] the theater, so intimacy coordinator, film, television, and then intimacy director or intimacy choreographer is live performance, not just strictly the theater. If we're talking any [00:05:30] kind of like live event, I know some of the spaces, like one of our colleagues, Dr.

[00:05:34] Greg: Amanda Rose Veradial has gone into is this like, like LARPing spaces, like live action role playing spaces. [00:05:40] So what or immersive experiences. And so it is a matter of. This is happening in the moment, hence why director or choreographer. So much of the [00:05:50] work has to be done in the room. Because as much as I want to pre plan choreography, it is a matter of I cannot promise moves to a director because I do not know what the bodies in the [00:06:00] space can and cannot actually do.

[00:06:01] Greg: And so ultimately, as an intimacy, I'll use intimacy director because they're interchangeable, intimacy choreographer and director. And director, but I'll use director in this [00:06:10] case as an intimacy director. My job is to, for me, it's five areas of focus. It is creating a consent based process. It is then establishing boundaries.

[00:06:19] Greg: [00:06:20] So creating a consent based environment, let people know that they have the ability to say yes and no to things, establishing boundaries, what are the things that work and don't work. For folks, notice that I [00:06:30] keep saying work, not what is comfortable. And I'll talk about that in a second. And then it is creating a de loaded or de sexualized space.

[00:06:36] Greg: This does not necessarily mean, it doesn't mean at all that it is, uh, it is not a [00:06:40] sex positive space. If we weren't, if we weren't choreographing intimate moments, I wouldn't have a job. So like, I want the sexy times to keep on rolling. I just want to make sure that it's done in a sustainable way. And then it [00:06:50] is figuring out the choreography.

[00:06:52] Greg: And then once we figured out, collaboratively, we figured out what the choreography is, then we document everything. So that way we can have a process that is repeatable. [00:07:00] And so ultimately I find that two things. One, the intimacy director's job specifically is to help to create and cultivate a [00:07:10] consent based trauma conscious space.

[00:07:14] Greg: It is a matter of understanding that that which we are doing as far as storytelling [00:07:20] is an embodied experience, like the bodies in the room, fill it, whether or not you are on stage performing it, or whether or not you're there in the room and you're witnessing. So this, this also includes [00:07:30] everybody behind the table, which I think unfortunately gets lost in the conversations too often.

[00:07:34] Greg: And then it is a matter of providing resources and tools in the space so the room can [00:07:40] take care of itself. Ultimately, I find that that which is probably the most challenging, especially being that this is a newer field, is the fight for legitimacy, the fight for [00:07:50] validity, the fight for, I belong in this space, I need to be in this space, your space is better because I'm invited in, has, I think, unfortunately, led us to a place where folks Get into a [00:08:00] space and the room is actually able to take care of itself.

[00:08:03] Greg: But then they don't feel like their usefulness is still needed. But I think for me, I'll speak for myself personally, [00:08:10] The goal for me as an intimacy professional is to make sure that like, I actually render myself obsolete. Because if I am still centralizing myself in the [00:08:20] process, If you're thinking of this work as like safety work or consent work in the sense of, once Greg is in the space, now consent is present.

[00:08:29] Greg: [00:08:30] What that also means is once Greg leaves, consent leaves with him. So how exactly do you provide the tools so the rooms can be able to take care of themselves? In particular with theater? [00:08:40] What does that sustainability look like for the length of the production? And also thinking about the bodies that had to tell the story and what's going to happen to them after because [00:08:50] we just want to ensure that that which somebody signed up to work on for two months, they aren't having to process for the next two years.

[00:08:56] Grant: Interesting. I was going to bring you back to when you said work [00:09:00] vs. What works versus what makes you, what's comfortable. Can you elaborate on that? 

[00:09:04] Greg: Oh 

[00:09:04] Grant: yeah. I'll jump in and then Roger, 

[00:09:05] Greg: please jump in after. So a lot of this intimacy professionals [00:09:10] tend to be looked at the language around intimacy, intimacy folks is, or the thought is you are coming in here to make my space safe.

[00:09:18] Greg: But the issue with that is [00:09:20] safety is subjective. As somebody who historically is not the face of safety, As a black man in this society, it is a matter of that space that I am in, [00:09:30] and the dominant culture saying this safe, this space is safe, does not necessarily resonate with me. And it's not a matter of creating a brave space.

[00:09:37] Greg: It is a matter of how do we create a space [00:09:40] of acceptable diversity. Risk, because ultimately that is what we are doing. Somebody who is working in any kind of job dealing with safety or going through procedures of, [00:09:50] of making sure that a space is safe, actually what they're essentially doing is assessing risk.

[00:09:55] Greg: They're not completely eliminating the fact that like humans are in this space and things can go [00:10:00] wrong. It is wondering and figuring out whether or not understanding what couldn't go wrong, does, is it still worth the risk to be in that space? And being that we are [00:10:10] navigating stories, specifically characters that are navigating or we're poeticizing some of the most traumatic moments in that character's life.

[00:10:18] Greg: Those, that [00:10:20] safety cannot be how we're moving towards the work because if we're leaning towards comfort, if it doesn't feel comfortable for you to do, then you will not do it. But we are in a [00:10:30] medium that requires us to do, to act. And so it's not a matter of, is this safe for me? Is it, does it work for me to continue telling the story in a sustainable way despite the [00:10:40] fact that discomfort is inherent in that storytelling?

[00:10:43] Raja: And sort of following up on the comfort of it all. One, when we talked about differences of coordination versus [00:10:50] choreography, with coordination, you need a couple takes of it. With choreography, you need to maybe have multiple weeks of a run, eight shows a week. I also tell my students all the time that their [00:11:00] education is lacking in that consent is not a topic that was actively taught to them.

[00:11:04] Raja: So they looked to social cues about consent. And so for myself being a millennial, [00:11:10] I'm hyper aware of this. When I remember those commercials that were anti bullying ads. If you see something, say something. We've taught generations and generations of [00:11:20] students that active justice looks like engaging policing systems.

[00:11:25] Raja: We taught people how to monitor each other before [00:11:30] embodying sort of their own knowledges. And so when I think about comfort. I ask my students all the time, Hey, happy 8am in class. Anybody comfortable [00:11:40] right now? Oh, I don't want to be here at 8am. But the thing is though, I didn't violate your consent by having you come to this class.

[00:11:48] Raja: And so all of the [00:11:50] sudden, It reminds people that consent and permission cannot just be synonyms. They're quite different. And even when we look at the language of [00:12:00] consent, we often hear the idea of getting consent. Getting is an active verb. I question if navigating, negotiating, [00:12:10] participating are all words that work better when we think about our conceptions of consent.

[00:12:16] Raja: All this to say, I cannot assure a [00:12:20] comfortable experience for all people. One, because the stories are quite uncomfortable. We don't want you to be comfortable with having to say some of the [00:12:30] horrific things that characters say. I got cast as villains for a very long time. And actor training used to say, empathize with them, take them on, find yourself within them.[00:12:40] 

[00:12:40] Raja: That wasn't good for me. That wasn't a good way of approaching it to me. Rather, I thought to myself, I don't need to become comfortable with this person. I need to play honor to this story. [00:12:50] This became such an issue for student actors that Greg, myself, and our colleague, Laura Reichert, who's one of the co founders of Theatrical Intimacy Education, did a panel [00:13:00] on this very idea, playing the bad guys.

[00:13:03] Raja: Why is it becoming so hard? To take it all back to comfort, the last thing I say, and this tends to [00:13:10] make people really ah, when I first say it, and then I ask them to sit with this. The assumption that our bodies have a right to comfort at all costs is a [00:13:20] tenet of white supremacy in my mind. Because think about what we do with that which we are uncomfortable with.

[00:13:27] Raja: We police them, we [00:13:30] incarcerate them, we rid our world of them. So even though it feels like we're just talking about staging the school play, it's not hard to see how [00:13:40] we get to prison justice reform and all of these ideas that are actually deeply connected. If we think about The very ideas of [00:13:50] what we have rights to, our, our sort of approach to comfort at all costs.

[00:13:54] Raja: And, and sort of what did those with power get to do with that? What did they do? They [00:14:00] colonized, they stalled. So I know this can feel like a stretch to the school play, but those connections feel really vibrant to me as a trans woman of color. I [00:14:10] have spent most of my career advocating that consent based practices have always Trans of color sort of projects, the history of consent based [00:14:20] practices goes really deep, especially if you look into the places where we weren't recorded, where people were not documented for their contributions.

[00:14:27] Raja: So there's a sort of power dynamic there that [00:14:30] maybe we'll wrap back to, but I know you've got some more questions. 

[00:14:33] Grant: Extraordinary, and I'm so grateful for you. To me, what it just highlights and underscores is, which we all know, is [00:14:40] language really matters. Just flipping out one word can change the whole perspective on approach, not just to this, but to so many things.

[00:14:48] Grant: Actually, I think you're leaving us in a really good spot for the [00:14:50] next question, which is really, there's intimacy, there's consent work, and then your cultural competency. Can you just talk about the differences about, about that work [00:15:00] and where it intersects? How do you find the intersectionality between consent and intimacy and then the cultural competency?

[00:15:08] Grant: Does it intersect for you? 

[00:15:09] Raja: For [00:15:10] me, no intimacy can exist if it's not culturally competent. Our colleague Kaya Dunn says you can't colorblind choreograph. There's power dynamics and [00:15:20] choices and story to be rendered from every decision we make in intimacy from the choreographic perspective. Culturally competent intimacy is the [00:15:30] only intimacy that should be done in my mind in that this in the field is mostly white women.

[00:15:35] Raja: It is a dominantly white women's field. And I think it's because of the reasons [00:15:40] that Greg has already sort of pointed out, who in the Americas do we trust is safe with aspects of care. Care is a deeply gendered idea in our society. When we look at the [00:15:50] sexual division of labor and sort of who's in charge of caring for community that often fell on women more specifically.

[00:15:56] Raja: The Me Too movement absolutely [00:16:00] defined the Me Too movement. What I'm talking about is the 2017 Alyssa Milano Me Too movement, which wasn't the first Me Too movement. And so the question [00:16:10] I always ask is why did it take rich white women in Hollywood denouncing their positions for people to listen? So that power dynamic has always influenced it.

[00:16:18] Raja: When Me Too hit, there were [00:16:20] four people who had major positions in the intimacy world. Three of them had master's degrees. All four of them were white women. They're people I look up to. They're people I respect. I [00:16:30] understand that when they created the field, they were Sort of in a dark room trying to make sense of it, but in protecting the field, some inevitable tenants of white supremacy found their [00:16:40] way in gatekeeping what's considered knowledge.

[00:16:43] Raja: Again, as a trans woman of color, we've been advocating for our protection amongst community outside of the sort of [00:16:50] dominant systems of power. We've always had to do that to survive. So now all of a sudden in 2017, what happens is. Folks come in and say, no, no, I know what to do to keep you all safe [00:17:00] as if that isn't something I've worked on for a very long time as a trans woman of color.

[00:17:03] Raja: And so it can feel disempowering, can feel sort of white savior complex to have somebody else sort of proclaim [00:17:10] safety or more specifically sell that as a product. Because one of the big challenges the intimacy field faces now is as we fight for legitimacy, we're also trying to recruit more people. Some people don't [00:17:20] want more.

[00:17:20] Raja: They're like, no, we're not training you enough. All this is to say that I have a lot of issues with the field that says if I pay a certain amount [00:17:30] of money for somebody else to decide I'm safe enough to be around, Listen, a criminal background check is meaningful, but it also really can harm [00:17:40] disenfranchised communities who are likely to be very good at this field.

[00:17:43] Raja: But if part of your requirements for certification is a background check, I get what you're trying to do. [00:17:50] But also these are all these barriers, financial barriers. Frankly, there's no place for intimacy professionals to apply for jobs. We have to hope somebody finds our work or [00:18:00] knows somebody. It's a, it's a deeply nepotistic.

[00:18:03] Raja: Is that the word? Yeah. Field in that that's how we get work. All this to say, it creates, especially on new challenges for [00:18:10] us who are fighting for cultural competency within intimacy, because. We're the movers and shakers of the world. We're the ones who have embodied consent practices across [00:18:20] time. People of color have been practicing consent by saying who all going to be there for a very long time.

[00:18:26] Raja: It's the idea of consent. Isn't this new shiny thing to [00:18:30] us? And yet we see over and over again, white culture saying, look, we found this new shiny idea. We're out here being like, we've, we've [00:18:40] been doing, this is our work, this has always been our work. It's time to catch up. 

[00:18:44] Grant: I'm listening to you and I'm thinking, well, we've taken this new field and we have grafted on the systemic [00:18:50] narrative onto a new field that should be open and be working towards redefining what, what the system is.

[00:18:57] Grant: And here we are, we, we go immediately to our [00:19:00] cultural comfort zone. 

[00:19:01] Greg: And I will say too on the, just from a who gets to tell a story perspective of it all with cultural competency, I think [00:19:10] one way that we can think about this is the fact that I can do, I can direct an August Wilson piece. And I can potentially direct all other kinds of pieces and there [00:19:20] are white identified individuals who would potentially get really upset about the fact that they don't have access to be able to tell that story that they can't direct or they cannot be the perspective in which the [00:19:30] August Wilson canon can be seen through.

[00:19:32] Greg: I think that which needs to be asked or looked at is the unders with the understanding of Two things. One, as a [00:19:40] human, as a black man in this society, where for 250 years in this society, I literally did not have the right to consent to things [00:19:50] because I was not perceived as full human. It is with that understanding of there is a history that is literally an elective for [00:20:00] you to learn about white identified person.

[00:20:03] Greg: And even if you don't learn about that, that history, you still have access to tell those stories without [00:20:10] actually engaging in the research, the dramaturgy, to actually become culturally competent to tell that story. Because all cultural competency is, [00:20:20] it's dramaturgy. Do your work. Do your research. If your intersecting identities are not in alignment with the people who you're leading, with the story that you're leading, Learn about them, [00:20:30] so you don't have to walk into the room and then ask them to educate you.

[00:20:34] Greg: Because that's not what they signed up to do. The actors did not sign up to be your cultural [00:20:40] consultant if you're walking into the space. As somebody who, I've worked, I've worked on Quiet Boy, I'm currently working on A Strange Loop right now, that are deeply black stories, [00:20:50] but they are very queer stories.

[00:20:51] Greg: And I am not a queer individual. But I am not going to ask my cast to go, Hey, can you tell me a little bit about this, this, this queer [00:21:00] culture thing that you do? Like, it is my job to come in and be like, cool, we have a scene that simulated sex is happening, I need to understand [00:21:10] literally the mechanics of that.

[00:21:12] Greg: I need to, I'm not going to be graphic or anything like that, but it's just like, I need to understand how the body works. I need to understand that [00:21:20] penetration isn't just like, cool, and then like, where, it's just like, no. There are steps to this. The body reacts in very specific ways to orifices being, like, these are things that I need [00:21:30] to know and be okay with, because if I don't know this, what ends up happening, and My lack of knowledge is going to lead to a projection of my boundaries.[00:21:40] 

[00:21:41] Greg: I'm going to limit how you can tell a story because I am limiting how the story is being told from where my knowledge sits. [00:21:50] If I am uncomfortable with queerness and, and, and, and that act happening between two men, then I'm going to go, cool. How can I sanitize this? How [00:22:00] can I, how can I present the idea of it as opposed to the literal act of it on stage, which is literally minimizing the humanities of those individuals on 

[00:22:08] Raja: the stage.

[00:22:09] Raja: [00:22:10] Limiting those humanities is so major when you think about the fact that, for example, as we talk about queerness, glad did a study. It's probably old now that it doesn't matter. But [00:22:20] a huge percentage of the country learns about transgender people through the media that they consume. So the storytelling states are actually life and death in that.[00:22:30] 

[00:22:30] Raja: How many stories did we get about the panic that led to panic defense laws? How many times was the reveal of a transgender lover, a comedy [00:22:40] bit or a bit to sort of dehumanize us and in a world where we're dealing with rising fascism, like the stakes of representation [00:22:50] are actually life and death. And so who gets to tell those stories?

[00:22:54] Raja: Matters so deeply, because trans people didn't get to tell stories about themselves, and what we got was years and [00:23:00] years of being dead prostitutes. Now, there are compelling social reasons that brought trans women into sex work, particularly in the 70s and 80s, but [00:23:10] nevertheless, that story lacks such nuance, it lacks detail, and the impact can be a global understanding of a certain population of people.

[00:23:19] Greg: It is a [00:23:20] matter of the fact that we live in a country Where there are people whose names I know only because of their deaths, and those [00:23:30] individuals are literally iterations of me, they look like me, like, that is a very particular story being told that lacks [00:23:40] nuance, a nuance that I understand because I, I believe my life to be nuanced, but if that is the only interaction that you're having with these individuals, [00:23:50] And then having to justify that by criminalizing those individuals so you can justify them being harmed or killed.

[00:23:57] Greg: That is the narrative being built. That is [00:24:00] the, to wrap this back up into like that which we do, is it's like, that is the story being told. And we can't pretend that that is not the story that, that people are getting, [00:24:10] especially with the understanding that outside of that, seeing that story, these individuals, these audiences, are not in community with these folks.

[00:24:18] Greg: And so that's the [00:24:20] only iteration of the story that they get. 

[00:24:21] Raja: Can I offer an example that really helps contextualize this? When I choreograph men of color, I almost never want to have them [00:24:30] grab their partner and pull them into them because there's too many stories about black male aggression that an audience is waiting to use that to [00:24:40] say, See?

[00:24:41] Raja: This reinforces my stereotype and they don't know that they have those biases, but they were fed stories of like the big strapping lover who sweeps the white [00:24:50] lady off her feet. And they don't realize that like to that story, they're actually looking for clues of this. We attend to the very real [00:25:00] power dynamics of the real humans on stage, the very real power dynamics happening in a story and have to seamlessly weave those together.[00:25:10] 

[00:25:10] Raja: And pay attention to what connotations are made when we seem them together. For the Romeo and Juliet casting that's happening discourse, it tells [00:25:20] us about who gets to be lovers, who gets to be seen as young and beautiful. And so these stakes, they go so far beyond just like, does it look good? That's [00:25:30] like the base layer for us.

[00:25:32] Raja: And unfortunately that's some people's entry point and stopping point in this field. And it's why folks like Greg and I get on these podcasts. We talk to people and we [00:25:40] say like culturally competent intimacy matters. I've watched too many people pull up tropes about black sexuality all over the state, and they have no [00:25:50] idea that they're calling on histories of tropes and they're sort of.

[00:25:53] Raja: Re re contextualizing a modern sort of sexual division of labor and a sort [00:26:00] of modern racialization of sexuality. And if we don't attend to that, we're prone to recreate it. AI has shown us that is true, if nothing else. [00:26:10] I don't even want to open that can of worms, so I'll leave it there. 

[00:26:12] Caroline: Thank you. I have so many questions.

[00:26:15] Caroline: I'd love to talk about what is next. Has the needle [00:26:20] moved? And it's also coming from Who you are in the work, and who you are and how you identify as a human being. So, [00:26:30] just to put it out there, so Greg, you is one of the few black men who do this really important work. And Raja, as a Filipina trans woman, how do you speak [00:26:40] to how your own identity informs the work, and the larger picture, is it moving forward, what are those benchmarks that are important?

[00:26:48] Caroline: I 

[00:26:49] Greg: would say [00:26:50] two things let me know that this is moving forward. One, from a very professional standpoint, the fact that I'm being called in earlier [00:27:00] in the process. It seems like such a small thing, but often, uh, when I first started this, often I was being called into the room after something had already gone wrong.

[00:27:09] Greg: And it was just [00:27:10] like, Intimacy person, come here and fix this thing that we could've put, we could've hired you for before, but you got, we are literally going into tech and make this better because we can't let [00:27:20] the, the fringes, the edges, the sharp edges be seen in front of an audience. And so the fact that I'm not only being called into a room when the show's already been cast, I'm being called [00:27:30] into places now as an intimacy consultant, to talk about your season selection, to talk about your content disclosure.

[00:27:38] Greg: So then we have that information to give [00:27:40] to the actors. So they're fully informed and can make consensual decisions about whether telling the story works for them or not. And so that in itself lets me know [00:27:50] folks are understanding the importance of it. I find that we are most effective as intimacy choreographers or coordinators.

[00:27:57] Greg: If we are seen in the [00:28:00] proactive space to give ourselves as many options as possible, as opposed to the reactive space to, even though I, the primary reason I really wanted to get [00:28:10] into this field, uh, and Roger kind of touched on this is because I was tired of seeing the lack of softness In the [00:28:20] stories of intimacy between Black people.

[00:28:23] Greg: Even if there was a kiss or anything of that nature, it was so, It was so rough. It was so like, it almost felt [00:28:30] like fight choreography that led to intimacy and intimacy just happened to be the part where we kind of like end, but it's like, but the steps to get there always felt so [00:28:40] rushed, always felt so aggressive.

[00:28:41] Greg: There was this energy behind it. I mean, in fat ham, there's like a, like a model I'm talking about, like, I want to be soft. Like, can you teach me how to [00:28:50] be like soft? And it's these two black men having this conversation with each other. And to me, it's that. And I find that which is probably the most encouraging is even though, [00:29:00] yes, I have worked on many of Color Purple and I've worked on many of Black shows, I'm a choir boy, I'm working on Strange Loop now.

[00:29:06] Greg: Something that happened, and I'm gonna pass this over to you, Raja, [00:29:10] something that happened is I worked on a production of Offend by Carole Churchill. And the director and I had a conversation, this was before they got into rehearsal and everything, [00:29:20] and it's a story that's primarily focused on women. And historically speaking, like the, I think the cast tended to be a bunch of white identified folks, but this cast was not [00:29:30] comprised in that way.

[00:29:30] Greg: And the, the primary person who was doing intimacy and had violence and also violence in there was a woman of color. And when I got asked to do this [00:29:40] show, I was just like, all right, I read the play and everything and I talked to the director and I was like, this is a show that is like focused on like women.

[00:29:48] Greg: And I don't think maybe I'm the best [00:29:50] person to like lead that. And she said, because you're thinking about that lets me know you're the right person for this show. The fact that. [00:30:00] The reason that this director, even one of the primary catalysts for this director, reaching out to me is because the woman in that lead position was a woman of color.

[00:30:08] Greg: And she specifically [00:30:10] asked for me to be there. And, and these are things that I didn't find out until afterwards. And so to be called into a room and not only be seen as like, Oh, black man, he [00:30:20] can, or black person can do black stories and can understand the nuances of that. The fact that I'm being called in to things that aren't just centralized around the identity of blackness.[00:30:30] 

[00:30:30] Greg: Let's me know that folks are understanding, actually putting it to motion. the cultural competency and understanding that I will, I can go into a room and work on the [00:30:40] band's visit and just be like, cool, this person can help to lead us in this space. And so that has been really promising. Even though I am living my, my Shonda Rhimes [00:30:50] life, my first different only life right now.

[00:30:52] Greg: Like, please, help, help me, help me. Like, if some people send them my way. But we are, we are out there, and even though there are, [00:31:00] there are folks that aren't getting the same notoriety as I am, or the most, as much exposure, this work is being done by a lot of folks who do look like me. And I want to, [00:31:10] like, take this moment to acknowledge that.

[00:31:12] Greg: They may not call it intimacy work, but when I think of historically, the people that come to mind when I think of this work, As far [00:31:20] as like pioneers, for me, a Sidney Poitier, a Lena Horne, like these individuals who have been in these homogenous spaces and had to find a way to navigate those spaces in [00:31:30] order to do their work.

[00:31:31] Greg: To me that, that is the most intimate. Because their identity is on full display in a way that they can't hide it, nor were they trying to hide it. 

[00:31:38] Raja: Yeah. Oh, [00:31:40] Lord. God, I love listening to you talk. For me, there's some really good signs of where this is going. The University of Michigan, where I have the pleasure of teaching, piloted a intimacy [00:31:50] program based on how inspired they were by Greg.

[00:31:52] Raja: Fun fact. Greg inspired the University of Michigan to say, we need to create a position where intimacy is, gets to [00:32:00] be somebody's focus. And that's pretty rare. Most of the time, your professionals working in academia and intimacy are adding it on top of existing course loads. They're the [00:32:10] acting teachers who also do intimacy here and there.

[00:32:12] Raja: So for the University of Michigan to invest in a person who's entire oversight is of intimacy across all of their areas [00:32:20] really signals to me that this thing is here to stay for at least a little while. And I do share the opinion with Greg that if we're out of jobs in 10 years, we did good work. [00:32:30] And at the same time, I also, we also know that as People of color as a queer person, myself, we know this struggle goes for a while.

[00:32:38] Raja: We're invested in the long term [00:32:40] and that's a really compelling reason to hire folks of color folks, the global majority queer people is because our liberation is often tied to these projects. [00:32:50] So we don't get to step out when it gets hard. And it's one of those things where that competency goes beyond just like knowing the right things in my mind.

[00:32:57] Raja: It also includes like having the lived experience [00:33:00] of. Staging queer intimacy isn't that fundamentally different than the queer sort of life I live. And there's this weird thing that people think that [00:33:10] intimacy professionals have to have a full sort of separation of personal self and professional self as if it wasn't going to inspire each other is the whole thing about the de sexualizing of [00:33:20] the space.

[00:33:20] Raja: And I'm like, well, trans women never get to be de sexualized in a world that sees them as sexual beings just by the nature of existing anyways. Lots of good signs that [00:33:30] it's happening. I really love that SAG wants to support intimacy coordinators, but I think the best thing they can do for intimacy coordinators is let us figure this out [00:33:40] and not try to make it their win.

[00:33:41] Raja: SAG passed a lot of rules and guidelines, and I guess maybe it's not rules. If I use the wrong word, I'm sorry. Somebody that fought [00:33:50] hard for this is going to get mad at me and I'm Whatever. They've been mad at me for me. We are still trying to figure out what this thing is and the rush to professionalizing [00:34:00] it will come with reinstating our worst tendencies.

[00:34:04] Raja: I am not eligible on SAG guidelines and I teach at the University of Michigan this full [00:34:10] time. Make that make sense. It's because right now people used to think, Oh, I need to protect the sanctity of this work. And I [00:34:20] really appreciated that thought, but in trying to professionalize it, we are Putting up barriers to folks whose training doesn't look like the global majority.[00:34:30] 

[00:34:30] Raja: Not all of us can afford certification programs. And frankly, I don't think it's the job of a piece of paper to tell them I'm certified. Therefore I'm good at my job. I want to ask what I'm [00:34:40] doing. I want them to gain the competency to know why my perspective as a trans woman of color is useful. Because how many times do we get to see trans [00:34:50] Filipinas on set?

[00:34:51] Raja: Not often. So if that's the only time I worked, then I'd be poor. But yet, my experience brings something really important to the conversation. I [00:35:00] want a producer to know why that is the right choice to hire me than Some other organization that they have no idea what they do decided that I can put on [00:35:10] my resume now that I am certified.

[00:35:13] Raja: What does that mean? So, I have both really good signs, but I'm also deeply [00:35:20] nervous about where the field could go. Because humans really love black and white answers, and this is a field that necessitates you learn how to paint with the shades of [00:35:30] grey. Twelve hours on set, it, it starts to hurt. If you think that I'm here to make sure you're comfortable and safe, and that's it, then you're going to [00:35:40] start getting resentful towards me when you have to do hard things, because our art form does require that.

[00:35:46] Raja: What we're saying is we want you to have choice over [00:35:50] the hard things that you do. And then give you autonomy over as much of it as we can. 

[00:35:55] Grant: You're always teeing us up with the next things. What is hindering your work right now? What are [00:36:00] the obstacles? And how do you combat the people who Their intentions aren't poor.

[00:36:06] Grant: Their intentions aren't wrong. They're afraid or they're [00:36:10] resistant. And so how do you bring people forward to bring and inspire that sort of generational change without necessarily just mandating it? 

[00:36:18] Raja: I do not [00:36:20] hold the opinion that All shows need an intimacy professional. I believe all shows could benefit from one, but right [00:36:30] now we are incentivized to make our job as wide as possible to justify our existence being there.

[00:36:36] Raja: So the scope of the job is really in question in some [00:36:40] way. And all this is to say the resistance I get, I need to address with legitimacy. I think there's this huge push because, okay. [00:36:50] Consent got distilled into a really easy digestible idea early for us. We learned often that anything except the hell yes is a hell no.

[00:36:59] Raja: Well, that's [00:37:00] not actually how it works. I can consent to things I'm not enthusiastic about all the time. Again, the case in point is students. You're currently in my class at 9 a. m. How does this feel? [00:37:10] Not great. So when consent got reduced to the idea of permission, it became really easy for people to be like, okay, great.

[00:37:18] Raja: My job is to make sure everybody's got [00:37:20] permission. And as long as they do that, then the consent is happening and it's simplified. And there's this sort of. Simplification. I mean, I had an artistic director look at me once ago. [00:37:30] Oh, that was important in 2020. I figured out what you do. You ask some questions and I'm like, that's not it.

[00:37:35] Raja: The other resistance we get is from performers who say this might impede my [00:37:40] process or directors who don't want us to put on sort of safety barriers or bumper lanes down the bowling alley or whatever is the phrase they use. And that is [00:37:50] legitimate. If I walked in there and started telling people how to do their job in any other field, that would not be considered professionally appropriate.

[00:37:59] Raja: And so [00:38:00] intimacy professionals have to be aware that we are the new field, our job is to go in there and provide the resources that that community needs to take care of themselves. [00:38:10] And right now we're incentivized to make ourselves these like God like, unwavering figures. If all of us had to be perfect at consent to be intimacy [00:38:20] professionals, none of us would have jobs.

[00:38:21] Raja: We get to be human, we get to sort of try, and That, unfortunately, got really lost when folks were advocating [00:38:30] at the top levels of Hollywood to make this happen. They knew that they had to be god like creatures. They knew they had to take the fall if something goes wrong from the legal perspective. [00:38:40] They knew that that was the only way they could get into the room, and so I'm not criticizing them for that.

[00:38:45] Raja: But I am saying that we are hopefully moving towards a point where we meet those [00:38:50] challenges with legitimacy and say, You're right. Why would an actor want us to come an actor who's been on screen for 30 years? Why would they want somebody? Who's in [00:39:00] this brand new field to walk on stage and tell them how to do their job.

[00:39:03] Raja: I sure wouldn't want somebody to do that to me. And so it doesn't mean that we can't employ consent based practices in [00:39:10] those places. It means that we got to have some tact with how we do it, because if what we're doing is going in and trying to control processes or more specifically create a police like presence.[00:39:20] 

[00:39:20] Raja: We're going to lose support. I'm not here to police the room. I'm not here to take people to, to jail. If they accidentally violate consent, that would be [00:39:30] an interesting moment if something happens to reframe, retool, provide resources and all those things, that's what they're for. That's way more useful than them thinking there's a [00:39:40] cop in the corner who's gonna, like, cancel them if they think I think they said the wrong word.

[00:39:45] Raja: And that's the fear about us, and frankly, there were some [00:39:50] intimacy professionals who did kind of act that way, and so that fear isn't necessarily unfounded. 

[00:39:55] Greg: Yeah, and I would say that which this brings to mind is [00:40:00] power, empowerment, and then technology. I promise this goes somewhere. It is a matter of this art form that we do, it is a [00:40:10] collaborative art form.

[00:40:11] Greg: And it has always been a collaborative art form. How we, the director's position and what leadership looks like in the [00:40:20] space has shifted and has been one person is the lead and that person has final say. And it is not a matter of like, we need to eradicate that system, even though I think there [00:40:30] can be a better system.

[00:40:31] Greg: It is a matter of acknowledging that that system exists. Because the problem isn't that there's somebody in charge of your space. The issue [00:40:40] is when either that person is abusing that power, Or, which is actually worse, is trying to pretend that they don't have that [00:40:50] power. And so we create this illusion of a flat hierarchy.

[00:40:53] Greg: We create this illusion that everybody's ability to change and shift the room, because [00:41:00] definition of power, given by Alicia Garza, is power is the ability to shift your circumstances or the circumstances of others. If you're telling a room, you have the ability to [00:41:10] change things, and I'm going, cool, I'm an actor, You're telling me that rehearsal tonight is from, it's from 30, I'm going to show up at 8.

[00:41:18] Greg: Like, if, if you're telling me, like, [00:41:20] because that's what the illusion of the flat hierarchy tells me, is it's like we're all empowered, or we all have power in the same way, as opposed to going, no, you can be empowered, you can become confident and comfortable with the [00:41:30] circumstances you find yourself in.

[00:41:32] Greg: But freedom of choice does not mean freedom of accountability. And so it is a matter of just making very clear who is [00:41:40] responsible for what, what am I actually here to be doing? And being clear with me what, what that is, as opposed to trying to navigate a [00:41:50] space with a lack of information and a lack of somebody clearly setting an expectation and that not being articulated.

[00:41:57] Greg: And then suddenly I find myself on the other end of [00:42:00] disappointment. How I land this plane is by saying one of our colleagues, Dr. Uh, Valerie Clayman Pye has a really wonderful way of thinking about like pedagogy. She's a great [00:42:10] Shakespearean scholar and just like amazing educator just in her own right.

[00:42:14] Greg: But she speaks about the upgrading of technology and how she thinks about it is [00:42:20] the phone still does the same thing that the phone was originally created to do. You pick it up, you dial, granted back then you operator hit me the line, [00:42:30] it's literally a, it's a resource to connect you to people, despite the fact that its primary function is still the same, we've had to upgrade the [00:42:40] technology of the phone to meet the demands of the time, and so it is ultimately that those who are working in pedagogy, you just need to update [00:42:50] your pedagogy.

[00:42:52] Greg: Update your technology. You are actually doing a disservice to the pedagogies that you're teaching. If you are not taking in [00:43:00] current information to help shift it and create a better point of access for your students to understand, it is also how I talk to when I get [00:43:10] resistance from actors who have been working in the field.

[00:43:12] Greg: It is a matter of these resources and these tools may not feel like something that you need. But it's [00:43:20] because you have to acknowledge the power that you have acquired and accumulated from your time in this industry. And even though these tools don't [00:43:30] feel like this is not for me, because I have agency over what I say and do, I'm looking out for the most vulnerable in the room.

[00:43:37] Greg: I'm looking out for the person that this is their first [00:43:40] equity contract. And they're working with you who they have admired. Since they were a young person wanting to get into this industry, you may be the person that motivated them to [00:43:50] come into this industry. I'm trying to make sure that they have as much agency as you do.

[00:43:55] Greg: I'm not trying to tell them that they have that's as much power, as much technique, as much. [00:44:00] Your experience has afforded you that. And I'm not trying to take that away from you. But it becomes an issue if you are trying to minimize somebody else's [00:44:10] ability to be able to work in a way that is sustainable for them.

[00:44:14] Greg: That is where I get, where I become resistant. Because I'm just like, if it's not for you, I'm not going to keep [00:44:20] bothering you. If I go, if I come into a boundary workshop with you and you're just like, I've been working with this, this other actor for the last 20 years. And we've like, I've thrown them a baby shower and all these other things, you know, this [00:44:30] person I'm go cool.

[00:44:31] Greg: All right. I'll leave you alone. I'll go work with the other people. I'm only here to be a resource, ultimately, and my presence in this [00:44:40] space, if my presence in the space, here, this is where it is, if my presence in the space as somebody who is giving, providing tools of agency to folks in the room, if my presence in the [00:44:50] space bothers you that much, I think you may need to re examine what kind of spaces you're in and what you need to do in order to remain in those spaces.

[00:44:59] Greg: And your lack of [00:45:00] awareness of what other people in that space need. 

[00:45:03] Raja: And on the two actors have been working together for 20 years of it all. Maybe they don't want us to help [00:45:10] them establish their boundaries, but there's plenty more that we can go do on set. Like make sure the shot actually supports the story.

[00:45:16] Raja: Cause that's part of the trick too. Is sometimes people think that familiarity [00:45:20] translates. No, we're telling specific nuanced stories. So just because you two may have an established relationship doesn't mean that's. Like conducive to the story that we're trying to tell. It also [00:45:30] doesn't mean that the crew consented to watching you explore your intimate relationship live here and in person.

[00:45:35] Raja: So when we get sort of like, dare I say, dismissed in those moments, oh, there's plenty [00:45:40] for us to still go do to make sure that consent is happening actively around us, making sure that that set is still closed, that the. Folks who are [00:45:50] robing know that they're going to be proximate to a naked body, whatever it might be.

[00:45:54] Raja: So, I think there is this strange idea that I sometimes get from folks that [00:46:00] we work for just the actors instead of the full production. I did want to say one more thing, too, about the flattening the hierarchy. Of it all, this is, [00:46:10] people think that we are here to flatten the hierarchy when we say that safety and comfort is what we do.

[00:46:16] Raja: Because they think the most safe situation is if everybody [00:46:20] had equality. Equality is a great goal that we are super far away from when you think about the racialized, gendered history of the lands [00:46:30] in which we make our work. So. When we talk about power, and I'm glad Greg brought in the definition that we often teach from Garza, it's absolutely true.

[00:46:39] Raja: If [00:46:40] I sit here and tell you, I teach at a university. If I pretend that I'm on an equal playing field with them, how do I grade them? How do I [00:46:50] claim enough competency to be trusted to teach them? We're not villains when we have power itself. Power itself is not a bad thing [00:47:00] to hold. In fact, as an intimacy professional, it is such an honor that I hold as much power as I do in the room.

[00:47:06] Raja: And I hold that responsibility really deeply. But if [00:47:10] I sit there and pretend that I can just, Oh, I'm just nice away the power. You can't nice away the power that you hold in a room. And that's what white [00:47:20] supremacist thinking likes to do. Sweep that under the rug, pretend that that's not there. We're all equal.

[00:47:25] Raja: What are you talking about? Why are you making this a racial issue? It [00:47:30] has nothing to do with that. But those of us who know, we know why it's that issue. We know when the competency or lack [00:47:40] thereof created these issues. So, that, we're never gonna, we're never gonna create a flat hierarchy in a society as deeply racialized and as gendered as we are.[00:47:50] 

[00:47:50] Raja: Or at least not in our lifetimes. So this is where I start to take on a sort of harm reductionist approach. How do I acknowledge that these systems of power of [00:48:00] racism, because I didn't consent to any of those, mind you. That's the other big question is I didn't consent to live under a gender binary. I didn't consent to live in a land [00:48:10] built on stolen land.

[00:48:11] Raja: Like anyways, all this is to say that if I could pretend that power could ever be flat, that I fully. I'm [00:48:20] engaging in erasure of history in my mind and that history shows up in our rooms. 

[00:48:25] Grant: It's fascinating. Two more questions before we get to our fun lightning round. I wanted to [00:48:30] ask who, who hires you? Who, who is it?

[00:48:34] Grant: The producer? Is it a director? Is it an actor advocating for themselves? You already spoke [00:48:40] about the sooner you get brought in the better. I find that true with everything. Dialect work. Stage combat. Like, the sooner these people are in the conversation, the less disruptive it is to the process. Because it's [00:48:50] just a part of the process.

[00:48:51] Grant: Who, after you're hired, is advocating for you and your work in the space? 

[00:48:57] Greg: Stage manager. Is [00:49:00] the, is, uh, speaking from the theater perspective of it all. Literally nothing gets done without the stage manager, y'all. Like, like, stop playing. Like, stop, like, stop playing. [00:49:10] Nothing gets done without the stage managers.

[00:49:12] Greg: Put some respect on the stage manager's name. It is a matter of, the stage manager is the person [00:49:20] who, whether or not there's an intimacy choreographer in the process or not, the stage manager is the person who is responsible for upholding the room that was cultivated in the rehearsal [00:49:30] space. And hold that show together through performances.

[00:49:34] Greg: They are the primary, the primary, they're the fulcrum of communication. Like, this is [00:49:40] the person that you want to feel as empowered as possible because they have the most profound effect on your production. And so, as an [00:49:50] intimacy, as an intimacy choreographer, they're, when we, after, when we are creating choreography, they're, they're the ones who I turn over to.

[00:49:58] Greg: It's just like, did you get that down? Do you need [00:50:00] me to repeat a thing? Because they're ultimately the person that's going to be, that's going to serve as the intimacy liaison when I'm no longer in the space. Thanks. So I may be hired [00:50:10] by the theater. I've been fortunate, like, I have had like an artistic director call me in, and call me into a, into a, into a space.

[00:50:18] Greg: Um, I have been in conversations [00:50:20] with directors, have been like, Hey, I've worked with him on a project and I want to bring him back. And I have been fortunate that like an actor has been like, yo, we need an intimacy person and not only an intimacy person, we need [00:50:30] Greg for this. And so I'm finding as, as I continue to work, It's different people who are calling me into the space.

[00:50:37] Greg: I think that that's a great lesson [00:50:40] of. Of nothing else, it's like, people don't always remember what you say. I mean, I think it's why we do things like podcasts and such. It's like, I just want to remember that thing. Well, I write it on a post it and put it on my door. [00:50:50] We don't always remember what is said, but people remember how you made them feel.

[00:50:55] Greg: And if nothing else, a stage manager, an intimacy [00:51:00] director, anybody who was in the space on the, on the other side of the table, that's helping to cultivate that space, people remember your effect on that [00:51:10] room. They will always remember that. And to me, that's the thing that keeps getting me invited into the room.

[00:51:15] Greg: There are people who are, who are more, who are more studied than I am, though. I'd be hard pressed to [00:51:20] find somebody. I wish you would shout out to like my mentors and stuff like that, especially like our good friend, Laura Reichard. It is a matter of, I am making sure that the [00:51:30] relationships that I'm making and making sure that people know that I'm here to make sure that they can do their best work.

[00:51:38] Greg: Because ultimately that, [00:51:40] I think, which is revolutionary in this work is two things, and I'll pass it over to you, Raja, is one, the revolutionary tool here that is being [00:51:50] utilized is like We just let people know that they have options. It's been constantly been told, this is the way of working. This is the way to do the thing.

[00:51:57] Greg: This is the, I mean, going back to that white supremacy, like, [00:52:00] this is the thing. You pull up, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and you will be able to, and like, and then erase all the other factors that are there. It's so, it's just like in a world [00:52:10] in which so much of these things feel like they're out of our control.

[00:52:14] Greg: That which we have consented to work on for the love of that, which we love to do. [00:52:20] We also want to feel like we have option in that space because two and finally the analogy that I use is Somebody will be more apt to go [00:52:30] deeper into a dark cave If they always know where their exit is if you're trying to find your exit when you are already in the dark [00:52:40] cave That's when we're in the reactive.

[00:52:41] Greg: That's when we're in survival state That is when we are we are potentially working in a way that isn't that is unsustainable for us And so ultimately [00:52:50] these intimacy tools are, here are your options. This is one way in. This is your, I mean, your, your way in is your way in as an artist. Your imagination and [00:53:00] everything is the thing that guides you through this.

[00:53:01] Greg: I'm not trying to do your work for you. And I'm not trying to do your work for you director. What I'm trying to ensure is there is something about the [00:53:10] intersecting identity of the actor that you cast. We'll just say a black actor, that part of their identity of their intersecting identity. Still exist when [00:53:20] they're no longer working on this show And so instead of trying to make sure that I'm just thinking about the show and this person who is in this narrative I'm trying to make sure [00:53:30] that you have a sustainable way of working here understanding that that which is part of your intersecting identity and narrative is Going to meet you when you walk outside of this rehearsal room [00:53:40] and to ask somebody to sit in a process for three months to talk about When they have no relief, no escape from a narrative that is usually being created without their input [00:53:50] in the society.

[00:53:51] Greg: That, to me, is what is damaging. That, to me, is why so many people, after we quote unquote reopened because the pandemic was over, that's [00:54:00] why a lot of people did not come back. Because ultimately, You cannot ask people to find their joy in the same place that they lost it. And so what is that? [00:54:10] How can we proactively cultivate a space that isn't just operating from a place are all are welcomed here and a space that is, we have built [00:54:20] this with you in mind, I didn't bring you in here only to survive.

[00:54:23] Greg: I have the tools to make sure that you can thrive in this space. And so I am grateful that many people, many different people [00:54:30] have called me into the room. And it works, and very much as Roger was saying earlier, it's just like, we don't have, yet, like, we don't have like, a union, we don't have, there's not like a, an intimacy database [00:54:40] that one goes and just like, huh, I'm looking for this, this, and this person.

[00:54:42] Greg: I know that folks are trying to create that, but we're not at that place yet. And so, so often, very much like when I was, when I was [00:54:50] primarily an actor, it is, it's very word of mouth. It's very like, I've cultivated this relationship and I've been fortunate enough that folks want to continue having me in that space.

[00:54:59] Raja: [00:55:00] That's right. Like all of the work we're getting, they're coming from multiple places now, but they're coming from how you made people feel. They're coming from actors who liked you and worked with [00:55:10] you. And that's a big criticism in my mind because. When some folks get to set the terms of the intimacy field and some of us have to live with them, I think [00:55:20] work is incredibly difficult.

[00:55:21] Raja: I've studied this for many years. I'm at one of the most prominent institutions in the world for what I do. And I struggle to find work simply [00:55:30] because the Titans of industry, the folks who got in there first, love you guys. Thank you. But also, God, did you put up so many barriers for the rest of us? And I [00:55:40] know that you did that.

[00:55:41] Raja: To try and protect the sanctity of this work to justify it. I understand why you did that. But now those of us who are [00:55:50] systematically often squeezed by these, these academic institutions, and it's not lost on me that I teach at one and there's a certain privilege that comes with that and [00:56:00] being to having a master's degree, but it's just, it's.

[00:56:03] Raja: It's a really hard time in the field when right now we're both fighting for legitimacy and internally. There's a lot [00:56:10] of debates. I mean, I'm not trying to air laundry or anything, but I think it's good that we know that there's pedagogical debates. No one thought it was bad when the acting pedagogists all sort of had different [00:56:20] opinions.

[00:56:20] Raja: No one was like, wow, Uta Hagen must hate acting if she's doing it different than Like we understood that there was pedagogical variance and [00:56:30] difference and right now in the intimacy field because we've all centralized around this very low hanging fruit of like consent is good that anybody who's critical of the systems of [00:56:40] power that are building this are seen as like anti consent or like not caring about this work and it's a hard thing to thread because [00:56:50] yeah, I, I don't have a place to go, you know, Apply to work and that sucks.

[00:56:54] Raja: It sucks that it's hopefully a friend or I made the right relationship to get [00:57:00] work. There should be systems for us to apply, to talk about our competency. Cause right now, if you just call whoever they might not be the right person for the job [00:57:10] and those of us with an ethical sort of sense about do pass on work when it's not for us and luckily.

[00:57:18] Raja: Some folks who have a [00:57:20] lot of prominence in the field recognized when I was the right person for a job and handed me those jobs. That was luck. Right now, how we get work, [00:57:30] how we delegate the work is just really difficult, I think. And it's recreating systems that those of us who represent culturally competent approaches are really focusing [00:57:40] on.

[00:57:40] Caroline: So on, on, on our podcast, on our site, we're going to include information. Absolutely about both of you, theatrical intimacy [00:57:50] education, but I'm also curious, Raja, you have a guidebook that's out in the world, yeah? Yeah, I think it's important stuff. [00:58:00] 

[00:58:00] Raja: Yes, absolutely. So I was fortunate enough to write a chapter on queer intimacy.

[00:58:05] Raja: In the Intimacy Coordinator's Guidebook, I bet you Greg's gonna go grab the copy. [00:58:10] Yaaaas! Taney is a fantastic friend, colleague. When I talk about people who helped me get my footing in the workbook, as one of those people I'm talking [00:58:20] about, I was able to write that chapter and If Staging Sex, which was the first text on intimacy by Chelsea Pace, co founder of TIE, [00:58:30] now runs Open Intimacy Creatives.

[00:58:33] Raja: So, Chelsea wrote Staging Sex, and that was, in some way, about just the baseline, sort of, [00:58:40] what Could this field be? What are the, like, what are the foundational thoughts? The intimacy coordinator's guidebook is about specialization and sort of finding [00:58:50] your niche as an educator or as a intimacy professional.

[00:58:53] Raja: So, for example, there's chapters in rope and BDS and cultural competency and mental health [00:59:00] coordination. So thinking about that as sort of the next step. If Staging Sex lays out all of these foundational ideas, the Intimacy Coordinator's Guidebook is intended to [00:59:10] sort of look at how we could specialize or learn about certain types of stories that we might be telling so that we're getting those people who have those competencies to tell those stories.

[00:59:19] Raja: [00:59:20] So, I wrote that with Leo Mock, who's an independent scholar and also a TIE Guiding faculty member with us. I'll also shout them out because we do have another [00:59:30] publication coming out soon. I'm not sure which date, uh, in a book called queering the stage, which Adi Cabral, who is sort of just a [00:59:40] dear friend as well, is editing.

[00:59:42] Raja: And we wrote two chapters on why queer intimacy. And so we wrote that with our colleague, Dr. Joy Brooks Fairfield as well. And so I [00:59:50] Joy's name every room I can because they're dear friends and we have some books coming out or some chapters in books. are coming out and queering the stage this year as [01:00:00] well.

[01:00:02] Caroline: Greg, would you share a little bit about theatrical intimacy education? You, you are both associate faculty, correct? 

[01:00:08] Raja: Guiding faculty now. [01:00:10] Oh, 

[01:00:11] Caroline: excuse me. We got promotions. 

[01:00:11] Raja: We 

[01:00:12] Greg: got promotions. 

[01:00:14] Caroline: Okay. 

[01:00:16] Greg: Guiding faculty in, in thinking of what Laura was thinking about with that, [01:00:20] how I understand it, is, Who are the folks who are not, I want to, I don't want to say like at the forefront of, but who are the individuals who are leading conversations [01:00:30] and specialized conversations in particular places, kind of in reflection with the book.

[01:00:34] Greg: It's just like, I think folks thought it was like intimacy, the consent, and there was this, and then we're like, okay, but we're also [01:00:40] interested in this. We're also interested in this. And like, there is nuance to it. And so I think guiding faculty is talking about that in particular, the nuance of it.

[01:00:47] Greg: Theatrical intimacy education is an organization that is [01:00:50] focused on specifically that. What is the education of this? We're connected to the Journal of Consent Based Performance, which is a way of making sure that, as, and Raja, uh, [01:01:00] please, uh, please correct me if I am, if I'm speaking out of line here, being that, unfortunately, with a, with Black history, with [01:01:10] queer history, so much of that which has been documented has been retroactively, has been from the individuals who have [01:01:20] survived, And unfortunately, too many of those narratives have been taken out of the hands of the people whose history was built on those who came before [01:01:30] them.

[01:01:30] Greg: And so, I find that what theatrical intimacy education and a journal of consent based performance is specifically trying to do is to reflect in [01:01:40] real time with it, because I think what that also affords us is the ability to be able to correct, to be able to make sure that we're not in a place of history repeat.

[01:01:49] Greg: [01:01:50] That we're not looking at something that happened 20 years ago in the field and going, Oh, we could have avoided that if only we had understood and been able to contextualize and speak about what is happening [01:02:00] there. And so I find that this organization in particular that is focused on not on certification, but on.

[01:02:07] Greg: Qualification. Am I qualified to be able to [01:02:10] do this work? Cause very much like as somebody who teaches, I'm the director of a BFA Bernal university, it is a matter of like, yes, my students can, can, can graduate with their [01:02:20] degree. Don't mean that they can act baby. And it doesn't assure them that they're going to get a job.

[01:02:25] Greg: And so it is a matter of how do we make sure that folks feel prepared [01:02:30] to go into those spaces. And it's not just understanding how the thing works. More, how do we put this thing into action? And so that has, [01:02:40] for me, has been like the most beautiful part, is being part of something that is growing and being able to speak very candidly about that, which is working and also [01:02:50] that which is not working.

[01:02:51] Raja: One of the ways we word it is theatrical intimacy. Education's goal is to train the people who are already in the room. Yes, we do [01:03:00] train intimacy professionals and folks who want to become intimacy professionals, but we hold the idea that our best bet is to train as many people as we can, because there's too many [01:03:10] barriers to education and intimacy right now.

[01:03:12] Raja: And if we could open those doors and we could make the people who are already there better at what they do more consent focused, [01:03:20] more aware of these practices, then we've affected an entire generation of artists who are thinking about consent. And this is what we mean when we say, hopefully we're out of work.

[01:03:28] Raja: So [01:03:30] TIE's specific focus, while also, yeah, educational, absolutely for me is about who wants to learn about consent based practices, not predicated on [01:03:40] wanting to have to be an intimacy professional 

[01:03:41] Grant: yourself. This has been amazing. As we warned you, we like to do a little lightning round. I'll go first with one of our first questions.

[01:03:49] Grant: What [01:03:50] is the first piece of music you bought or the first concert you ever attended? 

[01:03:55] Raja: Concert Backstreet Boys. Music that I bought though, it's hard because I [01:04:00] grew up on ceiling music, on like Limewire, I'm a millennial. So, at some point I started buying music, I suppose. Like, I definitely was pirating at first, sorry.

[01:04:08] Raja: Is this an admission? [01:04:10] 

[01:04:10] Greg: Statue of Limitation, Statue of Limitation. A long time ago. Yes, on cassette. Missy Elliot sock it to me. 

[01:04:16] Caroline: Oh my God. All right. Next question. If you could [01:04:20] compete in the Olympics, what sport would you compete in? 

[01:04:23] Raja: Figure skating. Ooh, I can give them body. 

[01:04:27] Greg: I want to say anything specifically dealing with [01:04:30] like track and field or anything dealing with specifically with running only reason primary reason is because some of the sports that are categories that are provided at the [01:04:40] don't take into account of the, like the entry point.

[01:04:44] Greg: Like it's expensive as somebody who has like a nine year old nephew. It's like sports are expensive to get them into basketball to get like all of [01:04:50] these things are expensive. Running, I can just go outside and I can, and I think that it's kind of like the best representation of just like that is an even playing field.

[01:04:58] Greg: I'm crazy like access to like [01:05:00] shoes and like safe spaces to be able to run and everything like that. I'm not trying to discount that, but to be like, I am the world's best runner. Something that most people are God willing [01:05:10] can do. Yeah. That feels like, that feels like a very specific stunt. 

[01:05:14] Grant: Great. And last question for you all before we say goodbye, a favorite family [01:05:20] tradition that you still hold or.

[01:05:22] Grant: A chosen family tradition that you hold in honor. 

[01:05:26] Raja: So Greg and I, with our colleague Chelsea Peso, I mentioned earlier, [01:05:30] who wrote Staging Sex, every time we do a conference together, we do photo shoots in like our hotels, and like, it's an occurrence that the three of us do, is get some really good shots [01:05:40] of each other.

[01:05:41] Raja: So for me, One of them is yearly, yearly photos at conferences. 

[01:05:47] Greg: Mine is, uh, around [01:05:50] food. So my sister, every either Thanksgiving or Christmas, makes a dish that my mother used to make. And my sister very much has been holding on to that [01:06:00] recipe. I unfortunately lost my mother in, uh, 2002. And it's the thing where I'm single right now, but I've had partners in the past, and everybody wants to get their [01:06:10] hands on that recipe.

[01:06:10] Greg: And my sister refuses, refuses. She's like, until you are married, no, yeah, you got to pry that out of my brain. And I love her [01:06:20] for that, because she is just the keeper of all things good. So, yeah. 

[01:06:26] Grant: I love that. And I love this. I mean, [01:06:30] gosh, this is 

[01:06:30] Caroline: amazing. Amazing. 

[01:06:32] Grant: We could just go on. Thank you so much for joining us.

[01:06:37] Grant: We really appreciate and honor your [01:06:40] time and work. 

[01:06:41] Greg: Thank you so much for wanting to uplift this work and more than anything, amplify with clarification, what exactly we do outside of being the safety [01:06:50] police, safety sex police in the room when we're just simply just teaching people how to wiggle. That's all we're doing.

[01:06:56] Greg: Thank you, Laura Reichert for that one. But yeah, thank you. 

[01:06:59] Caroline: Thank you, [01:07:00] thank you, thank you. 

[01:07:01] Grant: I loved learning about the concept of consent beyond just permission and delving into the importance of recognizing and addressing the inherent power [01:07:10] imbalances present in hierarchy, how critical it is to advocate for the creation of spaces where all participants.

[01:07:16] Grant: particularly the most vulnerable, can engage [01:07:20] safely and authentically. 

[01:07:21] Caroline: This is a relatively young field in the entertainment industry, and as it becomes a more standard practice to have [01:07:30] intimacy professionals on sets and stages with strong, passionate advocates like Raja and Greg, barriers to entry for talented individuals from the global majority will become [01:07:40] non existent.

[01:07:41] Caroline: And these important diverse voices and perspectives that are crucial for the ethical and effective practice of intimacy work will simply [01:07:50] become the norm. 

[01:07:51] Grant: You can follow Raja on Instagram at raja. in. rehearsal And Greg on Instagram at [01:08:00] greggarious86 That's spelled G R E G A R I O U S 86. 

[01:08:06] Caroline: And if you'd like to check out some of Greg's [01:08:10] work, you are in Luck.

[01:08:12] Caroline: He has two shows in Chicago and one in Atlanta going up in October in November in Chicago beneath the Willow [01:08:20] Tree at the Dent Theater. And so King Queer and New Musical at nothing without a theater. And in Atlanta, a third way at Actors Express Theater. The links to all of these [01:08:30] shows are in the show notes.

[01:08:32] Grant: If these conversations resonate with you, follow on SANS Talks or wherever you get your podcast. Visit our website at inthepodlight. com. [01:08:40] Until next time, step into your light. Since 

[01:08:42] Caroline: 1906, Pace University has been transforming the lives of its students with bachelor, master, and doctoral degree programs with campuses in [01:08:50] New York City and Westchester County.

[01:08:51] Caroline: For more information, visit pace. edu. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed by the guests, hosts, and producers of this podcast do not necessarily [01:09:00] reflect those of Pace University.