In the Podlight: Sammi Cannold & Liam Pearce - Neurodiversity and Inclusion on Broadway

Summary: In this episode of In the Podlight, hosts Grant and Caroline engage in a profound conversation with director Sammi Cannold, and actor Liam Pearce about their experiences with the groundbreaking Broadway production, How to Dance in Ohio. They explore the journey of the show from its documentary roots to its Broadway success, emphasizing the importance of neurodiversity and authentic representation in theater. The discussion delves into the casting process, the significance of creating an inclusive environment for autistic individuals, and the impact of the show on audiences and the industry. Sami and Liam share their insights on identity, accessibility, and the future of storytelling in theater, highlighting the transformative power of art to foster understanding and connection.

Takeaways

• The importance of authentic representation in theater.
• Creating a role as an autistic actor is groundbreaking.
• The journey of How to Dance in Ohio is deeply personal.
• Inclusivity in casting leads to a richer creative process.
• The show aims to change perceptions of autism in society.
• Accessibility for audiences is crucial for engagement.
• The collaborative nature of the production was unique.
• Neurodiversity should be embraced in all creative spaces.
• The mission of the show is to foster understanding.
• Future productions should continue the conversation about autism.

Chapters
00:00 - Introduction to In the Podlight
01:00 - The Journey of How to Dance in Ohio
06:05 - Casting and Production Process
09:50 - Identity and Representation in Theater
15:08 - Creating an Inclusive Environment
19:54 - Audience Accessibility and Engagement
24:51 - Future Aspirations and Impact of the Show
30:07 - Personal Reflections and Closing Thoughts 

Connect with Sammi on Instagram
Connect with Liam on Instagram
Connect with Caroline on Instagram
Connect with Grant on Instagram
Connect with In The Podlight on the Website

Check out How To Dance in Ohio on their website
Check out &Juliet on their website 

The Team:
Caroline Liem – Producer & Host
Grant Kretchick – Producer & Host
Cris Graves  - Producer & Editor
David Margolin Lawson  - Composer
Emily Yaneth Perez – Administration
The Lee Agency - Press Agent
Brandon Mills - Cover Art Photo Credit  

In the Podlight is produced in collaboration with Pace University – Sands
The thoughts, opinions, and views expressed by the guests, hosts, and producers of this podcasts do not necessarily reflect those of Pace University.

Since 1906, Pace University has been transforming the lives of its diverse students—academically, professionally, and socioeconomically. With campuses in New York City and Westchester County, New York, Pace offers bachelor, master, and doctoral degree programs to 13,600 students in its College of Health Professions, Dyson College of Arts and Sciences, Elisabeth Haub School of Law, Lubin School of Business, School of Education, Seidenberg School of Computer Science and Information Systems and, most recently, the Sands College of Performing Arts.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Caroline: In The Podlight is hosted on SANDS Talks, the official podcast platform of SANDS College of Performing Arts at Pace University. 

[00:00:08] Grant: Hi, I'm Grant. 

[00:00:09] Caroline: And I'm [00:00:10] Caroline. 

[00:00:10] Grant: Welcome to In The Podlight, where we spotlight creatives from different identities and experiences. 

[00:00:15] Caroline: Join us as we illuminate how they blaze a path forward through the [00:00:20] challenges and opportunities of the post pandemic entertainment industry.

[00:00:24] Grant: On today's episode, we're honored to be in conversation with director Sammi Cannold and Pace University alum, actor Liam [00:00:30] Pearce, who are part of the barrier breaking Broadway production of How to Dance in Ohio. Sammi is a rising theater director known for innovation in her visionary approach to storytelling.

[00:00:39] Grant: Most [00:00:40] recently, she's found acclaim for the authentic casting and representation of neurodiverse actors in How to Dance in Ohio. Liam is an up and coming actor who happens to be neurodiverse. Liam has [00:00:50] brought a unique and authentic voice to his performance. The depth and honesty he brings offers audiences an authentic glimpse into the experiences of the neurodiverse community.[00:01:00] 

[00:01:00] Caroline: We chat about their journey with How to Dance in Ohio from its inception as an amazing documentary to its Broadway run and now global tour. We go deep [00:01:10] into the importance of creating an inclusive environment for autistic individuals, both on stage and in the audience. We also discuss the efforts made during the casting [00:01:20] process to ensure authentic diversity.

[00:01:23] Caroline: and the broader impact of the show on perceptions of autism in the entertainment industry and beyond. Sammi and Liam [00:01:30] offer such a wealth of knowledge and so many valuable insights all creatives can take with them on their own journeys. 

[00:01:36] Grant: Let's shed some light. Hi. Hi. [00:01:40] We're so excited to welcome Liam and Sammi, an actor and director from How to Dance in Ohio, the Broadway success story based on the [00:01:50] documentary of the same title.

[00:01:51] Grant: We're thrilled to have them with us. Caroline, do you have anything? 

[00:01:54] Caroline: I really to just touch very briefly on the show has had such a [00:02:00] beautiful and creative journey. And for anyone who Has not been able to see the show, who may not be as familiar with the [00:02:10] documentary. I would love just for you to share what the show means to you on this side of it.

[00:02:15] Liam: Yeah, it's always going to be something I remember so, so dearly because it was my [00:02:20] Broadway debut and it was the first, Big, big, big professional gig I ever had. I was fortunate enough to have that happen to me at a very young age for people in this [00:02:30] industry. I did my workshop of the show while I was a senior at Pace.

[00:02:33] Liam: So it'll always hold a special place in my heart for that reason. But also, I often, when I'm talking about the show, [00:02:40] I often share an anecdote of there was one time where some parent ensemble cast was looking at The seven autistic actors being you guys are so lucky. I hope that you have a better experience than [00:02:50] this because none of us have ever had a, as fun and inclusive and beautiful, a group of humans to build something with as we have with this room.

[00:02:57] Liam: So I think it's always going to be [00:03:00] the start of Finding such joy in community of not only actors and directors, writers and just creators in general, because I think we had such a [00:03:10] beautiful space to work together as opposed to having text or words or ideas put on us, but instead having the opportunity to work with our creative [00:03:20] team to really build something and it was truly, truly collaboration from beginning to end on all sides of the table.

[00:03:25] Liam: And I think that is something that I will definitely look back and remember. And also. [00:03:30] The biggest thing is the fact that it was creating a role as an autistic actor in an autistic role alongside six other autistic actors creating autistic roles, which has never been done [00:03:40] before. And my autism has influenced everything I've ever done, whether that be intentionally or unintentionally.

[00:03:46] Liam: I, without me acknowledging it or not acknowledging it, and to have that at the [00:03:50] forefront of such a thing that would have already been so beautiful to make my Broadway debut, but have to have my autism be at the forefront of that. Really, really incredible and special. 

[00:03:58] Sammi: I very much [00:04:00] resonate and agree with everything Liam said.

[00:04:01] Sammi: And I think that my personal journey with the show started three and a half years ago. And what happened was that the show's original director [00:04:10] was the late extraordinary Hal Prince, and he very sadly passed away in 2019. And a ways after that, the producers and the writers were looking to bring on a [00:04:20] director to pick up where he left off, which is not a easy task.

[00:04:24] Sammi: And I met with. The composer, initially Jacob, and I was very, very excited [00:04:30] for many reasons. One being that my brother is autistic and my family had, primarily my brother, had tried to understand this community that he was a part of, but [00:04:40] didn't have contact with or intimate understanding of. And I was so excited about what.

[00:04:45] Sammi: The show could do not only for him and for our family, but also [00:04:50] for so many people wanting to have this conversation and those who don't even know that they want to have this conversation, but, but should be having this conversation. And then I had seen the documentary. I was really [00:05:00] excited about the stories in the documentary.

[00:05:02] Sammi: And then I fell in love with, with the show and with the writers and ultimately with, with the company. And I agree with Liam. It's, I feel a little spoiled [00:05:10] in terms of it being my, my first Broadway show, It was such a communal experience. Of course, not every second of every [00:05:20] process is going to be joy and laughter, but it was, I think, as good as it gets.

[00:05:23] Sammi: And I feel really lucky. And I also feel really passionate about continuing the work on the mission of the show, because [00:05:30] ultimately for me, the mission of the show was and remains what is. Most important. And so I'm really excited about opportunities like this one to continue talking about how [00:05:40] we can sort of take the lessons learned from it and carry them on into the future in the theater and beyond.

[00:05:45] Sammi: So yeah, it's a very meaningful show and I'm grateful. 

[00:05:48] Caroline: I wonder for both of you, if you [00:05:50] would speak to the casting and production process for our listeners, because it neurodiversity, which seems groundbreaking and by the way, shouldn't be. [00:06:00] And I don't think many of us in the industry have had this specific experience.

[00:06:04] Liam: I can start and I know Samuel will expand on this a little bit more, but I know that the team's intent when casting the [00:06:10] show was always to cast authentically autistic actors in the seven roles. And she can touch more on that because I know that was a for her. My journey with auditioning for the show was pretty nuts [00:06:20] thinking about it now because I did a two minute self tape over two and a half years ago for the show, and then I've just moved with it since then.

[00:06:27] Liam: The casting team, I saw an Instagram post [00:06:30] for an open call for autistic actors, and that, Obviously immediately grabbed my attention. I was a junior, my summer between my junior and senior year of school. So I was [00:06:40] following all the major casting things, waiting for something to show up on my feed being, Oh, that's a great thing that could work for me.

[00:06:46] Liam: And I was like, Oh, they're casting people who are in their late teens, early [00:06:50] twenties for autistic actors. And I saw that and I submitted for it. And I believe initially it was just sing a song of your choice and then they sent back material for Drew. I did a quick scene [00:07:00] from the show that is no longer in the show and a cut of one of the songs.

[00:07:04] Liam: And I know between the seven of us, a few of us had direct offers from those. A few of us were brought in for [00:07:10] zoom callbacks. I did the self tape and I was given the offer. And then we did the 29 hour reading because at the time we didn't know what was to come from it. I'm sure that if we knew it was [00:07:20] going to go straight to Broadway, there might've been an in person appointment at one point.

[00:07:23] Liam: We were also still, it was 2021. So in person really hadn't come back a lot yet also, but it is crazy to think about. [00:07:30] I auditioned for that workshop, which then I was kept on for the next workshop and then for the out of town and then for a workshop after that and this, and. So it all just kind of culminated [00:07:40] going from this one self tape to Broadway two and a half years later.

[00:07:42] Liam: But I do think it is crazy to think the show that really kickstarted my career was I Never Was Seen In Person for it, which [00:07:50] doesn't, this doesn't happen. It just doesn't happen. It's, it's silly, but I kind of honestly wish I would have been, not wish I would have been, but I know that for all of our covers and our five [00:08:00] extraordinary autistic actors, we brought on Swings.

[00:08:02] Liam: For the Broadway run, we did have our in person stuff and our casting team, Micah is an autistic casting director. And so she took the forefront [00:08:10] of making sure that the rooms were really accessible and that we had cool down spaces and we had fidget toys and we had all of these different things. And I know Sammi probably knows a little bit more of the details of that, but it was a room that was [00:08:20] really, created to make autistic people or really anybody feel comfortable and maybe more comfortable than they have in audition rooms in the past.

[00:08:27] Liam: So I am envious of the [00:08:30] people who did get to go through that and just experience that because that's something that I've never really experienced in an audition process. I've had mental breakdowns in Pearl Studios and I probably wouldn't have had that. 

[00:08:39] Grant: I was going to [00:08:40] say careful what you wish for because you got the part.

[00:08:41] Grant: If you had done it in person, who knows? No, exactly. How unique that process was. Yeah, 

[00:08:47] Sammi: the process was really exciting because I think [00:08:50] that When we did the open call that Liam was talking about in the fall of 2021, our hope was that we'll cast a great reading and then we'll see how it goes. And [00:09:00] from there, as with sort of all readings of new musicals, some people, it would be a fit in some people.

[00:09:05] Sammi: It wouldn't. And the seven autistic actors who were in that reading are the seven who [00:09:10] opened the show on Broadway. Still gives me chills because it's just that kind of theater magic just doesn't really. Happen and as a side note, I think your autobiography Liam should be [00:09:20] called two and a half minutes self tape to Broadway When when the show closed a bunch of the actors posted their self tapes for other characters Which blew my mind because I hadn't [00:09:30] watched them since we watched them initially and Amelia Faye posted her Jessica tape and I was wow This is amazing.

[00:09:36] Sammi: And also, everybody's right where they belong. 

[00:09:39] Grant: I can feel the [00:09:40] community just among the two of you. I mean, it's really a special journey that's one of those lightning in a bottle kinds of things. I'm gonna ask you, sometimes when we teach and we say to actors, Be [00:09:50] yourself. And sometimes I'm like, what does that mean?

[00:09:51] Grant: What does it mean to be yourself? Especially when there's minimal representation of who you authentically are. So I [00:10:00] want to get into that a little, a little bit. Liam, you already sort of touched on everything you've done has been so much a part of your identity as, as being [00:10:10] autistic. When you sort of blaze a trail or become synonymous with an identity.

[00:10:16] Grant: That's extraordinary, right? It's the most extraordinary thing that you're doing [00:10:20] when you, Sammi, for you, when you become synonymous with a first, right? That's amazing, right? Are there setbacks to carrying this mantle professionally sometimes, or, or [00:10:30] not? 

[00:10:30] Liam: I think that, within myself, No. Short answer. No. I think that's something that we have tried to create with the idea [00:10:40] and just the whole message and just concept of how to dance in Ohio is that yes, I am an autistic actor, but that really doesn't define me.

[00:10:48] Liam: And that does definitely [00:10:50] opens a lot of doors for me because I think there are a lot of opportunities for stories about autism to really be. Yeah. just grow and go so far. I think we [00:11:00] had such a beautiful display of so many different forms and ways autism manifests with different people and different genders and different body types and just different everything because we had a very [00:11:10] diverse seven of us as well as the fact that we're all autistic.

[00:11:12] Liam: And I think we what we love to do with how to dance in Ohio is we say yes, these people are autistic and yes, they're autistic. They are able to play [00:11:20] these roles and so so many different stories and that there are so many stories that are not told with how to dance in Ohio and we didn't necessarily have a ton of completely nonverbal [00:11:30] communication that is in the show just because we have there's so many different ways that autism manifests in so many different ways that this story could be told a thousand different ways to a thousand different characters, but I think it's [00:11:40] so cool that it's so cool.

[00:11:40] Liam: There will be more, and I'm manifesting that there will be more stories about this, and that because I'm an autistic person, if I happen to be able to jump back into another autistic role, [00:11:50] that's going to be super important to me because I'm going to learn more about myself and my autism putting on different autistic characters shoes and putting on a different set of [00:12:00] Characteristics within a human being, and I love the fact that I'm autistic for so many reasons, and I love the fact that that is something that I can now explore because of that within theater, but I hope that [00:12:10] it's not a limiting thing, because I know that I am capable of so much more beyond that, and I've played many non autistic roles, and I have found neurodivergent nuances in many roles, so very much.

[00:12:19] Liam: Roles that [00:12:20] I've played that are normally written as neurotypical characters, a game that the seven of us played backstage, naming different characters throughout the musical theater canon, who are, you're very autistic [00:12:30] coded. Cause there's so much people who write characters without intending to put common symptoms of neurodivergence within them.

[00:12:35] Liam: And so I think it's so cool to be able to take what I know about my brain and to apply [00:12:40] it to other work. I don't think it's limiting and my team definitely doesn't think it's limiting. And I think. This show has really cracked open a barrier of being a Broadway [00:12:50] musical is very hard to do and it's hard to do eight times a week and it's hard to do, it's hard to create and it's hard.

[00:12:55] Liam: It's just, it's a very overwhelming thing. And the fact that we had 12 autistic cast [00:13:00] members who were able to do that and do it with ease and with grace and masterfully is yes. Just proof to our industry and many [00:13:10] generations to come that there are autistic performers who are so capable and so here and available to do that.

[00:13:15] Liam: I know that Sammi and the casting team have a backlog of [00:13:20] hundreds of actors who could have jumped into the show. At any moment and done just as well as any of the 12 of us, 12, meaning the seven onstage and five offstage [00:13:30] covers. So I don't think it's limiting. And I hope that how to dance in Ohio serves as a pivotal moment for others in the industry to understand that.

[00:13:38] Liam: just because there is a diagnosis [00:13:40] of autism that it is not a you are only put into this box and that being an autistic actor is so cool because I diagnose behavior and other people in such [00:13:50] a different way than a neurotypical person would. It's actually very helpful sometimes. 

[00:13:54] Grant: It's that person first thinking, right?

[00:13:56] Grant: You're a person with autism, you're not an autistic [00:14:00] person, right? And I ask this only because I have friends and colleagues who have different identities. And I think so many. Times and space in, in any industry, [00:14:10] there's often a lot of fear and a lot of people who, who hide the uniqueness and the authenticity of who they are because they worry, right?

[00:14:17] Grant: So I asked the question from that perspective, [00:14:20] 

[00:14:20] Sammi: we talk a lot in our company about language and everybody uses different forms of language. As a company, we actually made the decision, uh, not use person [00:14:30] first. We use autistic individual or autistic counseling group or autistic man and different Autistic advocates have different reasons for why they choose.

[00:14:39] Sammi: Different sets of [00:14:40] language, but the autistic creators on our team to a consensus that they, they felt most comfortable with first. And the primary reason is because [00:14:50] they didn't say I'm an American woman, or I'm a, I'm a Polish woman, or I'm a Jewish woman. It's a characteristic. That defines me versus something that's added on to [00:15:00] my identity.

[00:15:00] Sammi: I am not autistic, but I'm using that as a, so I would not say I'm a woman with American. I would say I'm an American woman, right? So much of our show is about how can we [00:15:10] destigmatize and honor and champion. I think that's one of the ways that we as a company felt was exciting, though. We certainly don't disrespect anybody who chooses [00:15:20] to use.

[00:15:21] Caroline: So it sounds as though everyone was seen as who they are and the gifts they embrace. Liam, as your first Broadway experience, this must have been [00:15:30] such an inspiring environment for you to create in. 

[00:15:32] Liam: I think having a room with not only autistic actors, but we also had so many autistic creators on the [00:15:40] team, was such a beautiful success.

[00:15:42] Liam: Because to start, our book writer and our lyricist. Rebecca and our composer Jacob, one of which has neurodivergence, but neither one [00:15:50] of them have autism. They both have family members who are autistic, so it was very near and dear to their hearts. But I think they took a lot of time to learn about autism and talk within their families and like the people who [00:16:00] have that diagnosis before starting to create this.

[00:16:02] Liam: But once we hired actual like autistic creative consultants, I think that really enhances it because we have so many opportunities [00:16:10] to. Just knock out moments that don't feel sincere or moments that don't feel accurate. So I only experienced it once actors were in the room, but there's so much collaboration back and forth [00:16:20] between seven of us and Sammi and Rebecca about what felt genuine and what felt maybe in, in times not as genuine being this [00:16:30] experience, or I see what you're doing there, but had a very shared experience with this moment.

[00:16:33] Liam: And this is actually kind of how I proceeded in this. So I think that was super exciting to be able to. Like, have that [00:16:40] collaborative thing. And, and it kind of ended up with our final product of the Frozen show in December, being each of our characters and each of the autistic characters in the show equal [00:16:50] parts Drew.

[00:16:50] Liam: The character of Drew was equal parts me and the person it was based on, and this fictionalized story we told. Because though the musical is based on a documentary, [00:17:00] there are circumstances that were drawn. out of nowhere, just for the process of storytelling, obviously with respect and with permission of the filmmaker and the actual [00:17:10] people they're based off of.

[00:17:10] Liam: I think with all of these conversations we had and with all of the care we had surrounding the piece, mission was accomplished because I couldn't even start to count the amount of [00:17:20] autistic people who, you know, We're either in me on Instagram or talking to me at the stage door being autistic. And I saw accurate representation of myself for the first time ever.

[00:17:29] Liam: And [00:17:30] I've seen so many autistic stories that have been so incredible for people trying, or it's been so close to really nailing it. But like something that you guys did, I felt so different in this theater, [00:17:40] in watching this piece than I ever have before, because it had that heart to it. It had that. extra edge of, oh, you can tell this is created by the people who share the same [00:17:50] identity as me.

[00:17:50] Liam: And you can tell that this was devised by autistic people and for autistic people. It was just so exciting how well received this was by autistic people and how much they [00:18:00] thought it was accurate to their experiences and how much it encouraged them to take risks and search for victories in their lives.

[00:18:08] Liam: I was diagnosed with autism when I was [00:18:10] five. At the time, it was Asperger's Syndrome, which is now not a term that is used anymore. When I was younger, it wasn't really something that I felt comfortable talking about, just because I didn't know a ton about it. I [00:18:20] was five. My parents also were learning about it with me.

[00:18:23] Liam: My parents were very supportive of me, but Like, it's not something I really talked about openly a lot until I was in college, other than [00:18:30] close friends I had in high school knew. But there were young kids who were probably around the age I was when I was diagnosed at our stage door being autistic, and I saw [00:18:40] myself in your character.

[00:18:40] Liam: And it was just like, mind boggling to, like, think that like somebody who was that young would be able to go up to a stranger and share that with them. And I think it's because they felt so safe [00:18:50] and so looked after by this story and by this piece and so represented on stage. That to me is one of the things I will remember most about this show is that I was a part of something that [00:19:00] created such a safe space for such young People who have never had that experience before 

[00:19:05] Sammi: everything Liam said, and we have a line in the show that is used in a lot of advocacy [00:19:10] circles, which is nothing about us without us.

[00:19:13] Sammi: And I think that that came to define a lot of the way that we made the show, particularly in the sort of final year of [00:19:20] its gestation. And what we did wasn't perfect. And I wouldn't want to put the burden of that. On it. It's a step progress in an exciting [00:19:30] direction, but I think we hope and we're excited for much more to come.

[00:19:33] Sammi: And I think that one of the things that I'm really passionate about is about process, because I think that we can feel the impact of product. We can [00:19:40] see the folks at the stage door or read things online about what the show means to people. But I think that we had an amazing access team on the show and they designed a survey that we [00:19:50] gave out at the beginning of every step of our process that asked.

[00:19:54] Sammi: The entire company, not just the actors, but everybody in the, in the room, what do you need to do your best work? What are access needs [00:20:00] you want us to be aware of? And what are sensitivities you might want to be aware of? And a number of other questions sort of in that vein. And then we were able to use the information that came in through that survey to design a process [00:20:10] that felt curated towards the people that we had in the room.

[00:20:14] Sammi: Use the example of that survey, because I think about how so many of the actors that we met through. [00:20:20] This process, not just actors, creators, artists generally, who we met through this process, I think have had certain invisible or otherwise [00:20:30] barriers to jobs or opportunities in the past because as a community we aren't.

[00:20:35] Sammi: Really educated on how to be accessible. And so I [00:20:40] think that that was really exciting about what the access team brought to our process was it was saying, you don't need to change to be considered for our show or to function in our environment. We're going [00:20:50] to try to change and see if we can meet you in the middle.

[00:20:53] Sammi: I'm working on a process right now where we're just using that survey. For the first time since Ohio and the show has nothing [00:21:00] to do with autism, but it's exciting to see what I'm learning about my actors that otherwise I would have had no idea. And it's really helpful to me and I [00:21:10] hope helpful to them to have a sense of communication of what everybody's bringing into the room.

[00:21:14] Sammi: So excited about the dialogue that that starts in terms of process. 

[00:21:18] Grant: I love that you're bringing this into the [00:21:20] conversation. Was there a process with prepping the audience? 

[00:21:24] Liam: We wanted this show to not only be accessible for the people who are on stage, but like jazz accessible for the people in the [00:21:30] audience.

[00:21:30] Liam: Cause we wanted this to be an audience and a house that anybody, no matter What, uh, accessibility needs you had felt [00:21:40] comfortable in the room. We had a more set up theater for accessibility than I've ever seen in a Broadway theater. I've seen tens and tens and tens of shows on [00:21:50] Broadway, but I've never had an experience, I mean, I never was an audience member at a dance in Ohio, but I've heard from a lot of people and I saw the work being put into the room.

[00:21:58] Liam: Um, it was a very, [00:22:00] it was a room that was very well thought of and it wasn't just like, okay, go up, find your seat, sit down, watch. the show. We had slips in our playbills that gave full maps of the theater [00:22:10] and had lists of auditory triggers and things that might be like a little bit hard for people who have audit sensitivities.

[00:22:17] Liam: In addition to that, our sound [00:22:20] team led by Connor Wang, our sound designer, had in ear Monitors with over ear headphones for audience members who also had auditory accessibility needs that work of [00:22:30] Connor and the sound team and our accessibility team created a sound mix that was more sensory friendly to people who have those sort of triggers.

[00:22:36] Liam: We also had cool down spaces into part [00:22:40] of the theater that were areas that if an audience member felt over simulated or just overwhelmed in any way that they could go and sit in in one of them. had a live feed of the [00:22:50] show, so if you wanted to sit in there and watch the entire show and hear it through just like the theater, but watch it on that screen, that was accessible to you.

[00:22:57] Liam: I think something else that was so [00:23:00] exciting about our show in general was it started with the seven autistic actors, whoever was on that night. going on to the front of the stage and doing this [00:23:10] little prologue and just being like, Hey, everybody, we're actors, we're all autistic, and we're going to do this show for you.

[00:23:16] Liam: And just kind of a few little like things here and there, like, Oh, we also had fidget [00:23:20] bags for like audience members who wanted to like play with something or like, uh, to stim with something throughout the performance. Uh, we pointed out where you could get those. We pointed out where the cool down spaces were and just kind of gave like a.

[00:23:29] Liam: [00:23:30] a welcome to the show, kind of like a curtain speech, but with actors in the show that was scripted, but also just kind of eased audiences in to what was going to be happening and introducing [00:23:40] them to these seven faces that they'd never seen before that you're going to see a lot of in the next two and a half hours.

[00:23:43] Liam: And our house lights were still up for that. And so that was what we did in terms of preparing audiences of any sort of [00:23:50] accessibility need to feel comfortable in the show. And I think as actors, given that we have worked with a company with so many neurodivergent people in the room for so long, We were well equipped for any sort [00:24:00] of disruptions that may come from the audience because we know that there are a lot of people who are neurodivergent or neurotypical who have auditory responses, sometimes involuntary auditory stims [00:24:10] that are prevalent and that we would hear sometimes during the show.

[00:24:13] Liam: And I loved when that sort of stuff happened because it didn't throw me off. And there were definitely times where like it would be like a quiet moment and I would hear like [00:24:20] some sort of noise from the audience where I would just have to acknowledge and breathe through it. But it just reminded me that this is who that show is for.

[00:24:25] Liam: And I'm so happy that. We're doing this for them [00:24:30] because that was that person's first time ever in a Broadway theater because that this is something that happens to them. But they said, no, I want to go see the show because this is something that's important to me. And, or my parents want me to see the show because they want me to feel [00:24:40] represented on stage.

[00:24:40] Liam: It was so invigorating and like exciting for that to happen. And every time we walked off stage, we would just kind of take a breath, shake off if anything had gone wrong. Cause we're telling this [00:24:50] story to Clearly a group of like a lot of neurodivergents. We also like have ourselves. So it was challenging doing that show.

[00:24:56] Liam: But also every time we walked off stage, we were like, that was [00:25:00] tough. But how beautiful this is, 

[00:25:01] Grant: what is the life of the show? What's the dream? How do you hope it changes the hearts and minds of the audience? And those who've been fortunate enough to see this or the [00:25:10] documentary? How do you hope it changes?

[00:25:12] Grant: The industry and its impact on storytelling. 

[00:25:14] Sammi: The specific future falls into a, I'm not allowed to say category sadly, [00:25:20] but I mean, I can say that there will be future life for the show, which I'm really, really excited about. And you know, I think that that hopefully will exist in a number of different [00:25:30] capacities and categories.

[00:25:31] Sammi: And while I'm excited for the production that I directed to Get to continue to have its day and in whatever capacity one day we'll be able [00:25:40] to talk about. I think I'm most excited about is going into communities to see community theater productions, school productions, partly because it is a show that is so much about community.

[00:25:49] Sammi: And I [00:25:50] think I'd be really excited to see a production directed by an autistic director. There's so many different permutations, and I would love to just understand what that looks like. So. What is this sort [00:26:00] of community conversation about, uh, you know, what, what our show means and what the legacy of it is.

[00:26:06] Sammi: I want the legacy of the show to be really meaningful and [00:26:10] impactful and not for it to feel like it is a niche show that belongs to a certain group of people. It belongs to everybody and it's about the human experience in addition to being about, about autism. 

[00:26:19] Grant: Is there [00:26:20] something that tugs at you that's like, nobody's ever asked me.

[00:26:23] Sammi: I've been really excited to talk about this because there's a question that I'm asked in interviews all the time. And my answer has always been the same. [00:26:30] And my answer just changed. So, I'm very excited to talk about it. So, um, I'm always asked, as a female director, as a young woman, do you face challenges that your male [00:26:40] counterparts don't face?

[00:26:40] Sammi: And that someone older than you might not face? My answer is always like, not really, like, I think I'm the beneficiary of the generation above me, as are other female and non binary directors coming into the [00:26:50] fold now, who, you know, paved that way and I didn't feel like in the first eight years of my career that I felt, other than microaggressions from time to time, pushed back because I was a woman [00:27:00] or because I was a young woman.

[00:27:00] Sammi: That's my normal answer. It has just changed because I now go into meetings, for better or worse, with people, uh, saying, Oh, you're meeting with a Broadway [00:27:10] director or you're, you're meeting with. You know, someone with, with the initial who is a, is a Broadway director. And it is wild to me, the reaction that I now get when I get on [00:27:20] zoom, where people are like, sorry, are you the person I'm meeting with?

[00:27:23] Sammi: Like that has happened to me three times this week. And I've also found, I will now get asked much more [00:27:30] than before to justify why I feel I can handle whatever job is in front of me because of the jobs that I'm, you know, going out for a higher level. It's something [00:27:40] that. I think in every case for a male director, the answer I've directed on Broadway is, you know, is the answer, which is not to be like, wow, I'm so amazing, [00:27:50] but it is to say, like, there's a certain level of work that is required to, to do something at that level.

[00:27:55] Sammi: And I think it's changed my perception of what it means to be a woman or young woman [00:28:00] in this industry, because I don't think that right now the discrimination or whatever you want to call it is largely felt on the way up because we're hustling, we're trying to prove ourselves in those [00:28:10] moments. It's felt once we've actually, you know, earned or qualified for some level and then people question, are you right to be at that level?

[00:28:17] Sammi: And I haven't really like figured out how to articulate it yet, [00:28:20] but it is a trend that I'm noticing very suddenly in my life and want to talk to other women about it because I'm very curious if it's a thing that happens to other people. 

[00:28:27] Grant: It's a fascinating and the most interesting [00:28:30] answer we've gotten to that question.

[00:28:31] Grant: We just got to our lightning round. 

[00:28:32] Caroline: These are random. I am dying to hear the answer to this. So, cool. What is a favorite family tradition or a [00:28:40] chosen tradition that you've adopted that you really lean into? 

[00:28:43] Sammi: My fiancé is Afghan and his family is Muslim and they celebrate Eid for the past two years [00:28:50] and now coming up on the third.

[00:28:50] Sammi: That's been a really exciting, meaningful tradition to me, I think partly because it's so new to me and you get to wear really cool clothes and like it's, it's very meaningful, obviously, but the clothes are really fun [00:29:00] and it's nice to most of all spend time with people. So that's, so that's become very meaningful to me.

[00:29:04] Grant: If you could live in a sitcom or TV 

[00:29:08] Liam: show, which would it be? One of my [00:29:10] favorite TV shows is, uh, Aaron Sorkin's The Newsroom. And, oh, Sammi, we've talked about, I think we've talked about this. 

[00:29:15] Sammi: Yeah, this is my answer. 

[00:29:17] Liam: I don't think my, I don't know if my [00:29:20] brain would function well in that sort of setting, but I would love if that was a real place.

[00:29:24] Liam: If I could have just sat in that newsroom, in that show, and just like, Watch all of [00:29:30] that around me. If I was like one of the extras in the back, that would have been great for me. Cause like, I love the way that show is written and I love everything about it. But like, and yeah, I'm thinking about the acting performances and not more of the [00:29:40] world of it.

[00:29:40] Liam: But I just think that is such a cool, like community they built within that world, specifically all the scenes that took place, just like in that center and room there, area there, [00:29:50] like outs like in the main area of the thing. So I'm going to say that. 

[00:29:52] Sammi: I'm not making it up when I said. That was my answer.

[00:29:55] Sammi: Um, that and the morning show because very similar environments. I [00:30:00] had a moment during the pandemic when I was like, well, theater is not coming back. And I was watching CNN all the time. And I was like, my career is going to be [00:30:10] working in a newsroom. Like, I'm going to be just like the people in 

[00:30:12] Caroline: newsroom.

[00:30:13] Caroline: It's amazing. What is the last random thing that made you smile? It could be the last thing or a [00:30:20] random thing. Let's do that way. So it doesn't necessarily have to be the very last. 

[00:30:24] Liam: The last thing that made me smile was the text I got from my manager about [00:30:30] 10 minutes before this with some fun news of a show that I'm gonna be working on that I can't talk about yet, but it'll be a quick little fun little thing, and I'm excited about that, and I was [00:30:40] smiling a lot at 8 22.

[00:30:41] Sammi: Well, I'm going to choose this same moment because I didn't know if you got the text because because it's my show um I [00:30:50] kept saying to this team that i'm working with please can we send liam the offer before i'm on a podcast with him? Because I would really like him to know he's getting the job Neither of us can [00:31:00] say what it is, but i'm smiling because we get to work together again.

[00:31:02] Sammi: So 

[00:31:04] Grant: if you could Compete in Olympic sport. What would it be and why? 

[00:31:09] Liam: [00:31:10] Prefacing, I would not be good at any of them. I'm aggressively uncoordinated on most fronts. I was playing my games like Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games on my [00:31:20] Wii as a child. My go to was fencing, but I think I actually took a fencing, the, I sat in on the first lesson of a fencing class because I like was a big Pirates of the [00:31:30] Caribbean fan and I thought that's what it was going to be.

[00:31:32] Sammi: always been my ultimate dream to direct the Olympic Opening Ceremonies. It's not a sport, but it is. 

[00:31:38] Caroline: This has been [00:31:40] so much fun, and I wish I could just stay on all night long. Thank you so much for your time and sharing these beautiful stories. 

[00:31:49] Liam: Thank you so much. [00:31:50] Thank you so much for having us. Thank you for having us.

[00:31:52] Liam: It was so much fun. 

[00:31:53] Caroline: So in love with Sammi and Liam. Their commitment for creating inclusive and accessible [00:32:00] theater experiences brings a smile to this social justice heart. Learning about the transformative impact of a show like How to Dance in Ohio can have on [00:32:10] audiences, especially those who are new and divergent themselves and who now feel seen and represented for the first time.

[00:32:16] Caroline: I mean, isn't that what art is all about? 

[00:32:19] Grant: Yes. This is [00:32:20] such an eye opening conversation. To hear about the care Sammi and Liam took, not just for the team, but also for the audience, with physical considerations, but also sensory sensitivities. I [00:32:30] learned so much, and I hope we can choose to move through life and art with an eye toward how we can make a space more welcoming.

[00:32:38] Caroline: You can follow Sammi on [00:32:40] Instagram at Sammi. canald, and you can follow Liam on Instagram at liam. pierce. 

[00:32:45] Grant: And we're So excited to share that starting October 29th, you'll be able to [00:32:50] catch Liam back on Broadway, where he'll be Romeo, in the new musical, Ed and Juliet. For more information, or to get your tickets, check out the show's website, [00:33:00] edandjulietbroadway.

[00:33:01] Grant: com. Also, if you're curious to learn more about How to Dance in Ohio, make sure to visit the website at howtodanceinohiomusical. com. The links [00:33:10] are in the show notes. 

[00:33:11] Caroline: Thanks so much for listening to In the Podlight. If these conversations resonate with you, follow on SANDS Talks or wherever you get your podcasts.[00:33:20] 

[00:33:20] Caroline: Visit our website at inthepodlight. com. Until next time, step into your light. 

[00:33:26] Grant: Since 1906, Pace University has been transforming the lives of its students with [00:33:30] bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degree programs with campuses in New York City and Westchester County. For more information, visit pace. edu. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed by [00:33:40] the guest, host, and producers of this podcast do not necessarily reflect those of Pace [00:33:50] University.