In the Podlight: Candido Cornejo Jr. & Jesse James Keitel - Intentional Casting

Summary: In this episode, trans creatives Jesse James Keitel and Candido Cornejo Jr.  discuss the importance of intentional casting and authentic representation in Hollywood. They explore the challenges faced by trans and non-binary artists, the significance of advocacy, and the need to break stereotypes in casting. The conversation highlights personal experiences and the ongoing efforts to educate the industry on trans representation, emphasizing the humanity and talent of individuals beyond their identities. In this conversation, Candido and Jesse share the challenges and nuances of casting in the entertainment industry, particularly focusing on the representation of trans and non-binary actors. They explore the importance of intentional casting, the need for training and development opportunities, and the emotional burdens that come with being a representative of a community. The discussion also touches on personal aspirations within the industry and the joy of acting despite the challenges faced.

Takeaways

• Intentional casting is crucial for authentic representation.
• Trans creatives face unique challenges in Hollywood.
• Advocacy can be a natural byproduct of being oneself.
• Breaking stereotypes is essential for diverse storytelling.
• The industry often reduces trans identities to tokenism.
• Education on trans issues is still necessary in the industry.
• Personal experiences shape professional journeys in the arts.
• Representation must go beyond visibility to include authenticity.
• Trans stories should be told by trans individuals.
• Navigating identity in the workplace requires courage and clarity. We need time, we need money, we need resources.
• There is a space for you that you can be an actor.
• Intentional casting can ease emotional burdens.
• Being a trans woman has been the biggest gift to my career.
• We need to start questioning what is your intention with this?
• We need more training and development opportunities.
• It's important to remember what makes us happy.
• Acting is so fun, but I absolutely hate Hollywood.
• The duality of being different can be both a gift and a burden.

Chapters
00:00 - Introduction to Trans Creatives in Hollywood
02:06 - Intentional Casting and Authentic Representation
06:14 - Navigating Identity and Career Challenges
10:04 - The Role of Advocacy in the Arts
14:04 - Breaking Stereotypes in Casting
17:54 - Educating the Industry on Trans Representation
21:48 - Personal Experiences and Professional Challenges
28:12 - The Challenge of Finding Talent
31:03 - Encouraging Diversity in Acting
34:35 - The Burden of Representation
37:54 - Intentional Casting and Its Importance
40:35 - Dreams and Aspirations in the Industry
45:46 - The Duality of Being Different
50:00 - Finding Joy in the Journey 

Connect with Candido on Instagram
Connect with Jesse on Instagram
Connect with Caroline on Instagram
Connect with Grant on

Since 1906, Pace University has been transforming the lives of its diverse students—academically, professionally, and socioeconomically. With campuses in New York City and Westchester County, New York, Pace offers bachelor, master, and doctoral degree programs to 13,600 students in its College of Health Professions, Dyson College of Arts and Sciences, Elisabeth Haub School of Law, Lubin School of Business, School of Education, Seidenberg School of Computer Science and Information Systems and, most recently, the Sands College of Performing Arts.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Caroline: In The Podlight is hosted on SANDS Talks, the official podcast platform of SANDS College of Performing Arts at Pace University. 

[00:00:08] Grant: Hi, I'm Grant. 

[00:00:09] Caroline: And I'm [00:00:10] Caroline. 

[00:00:10] Grant: Welcome to In The Podlight, where we spotlight creatives from different identities and experiences. 

[00:00:15] Caroline: Join us as we illuminate how they blaze a path forward through the [00:00:20] challenges and opportunities of the post pandemic entertainment industry.

[00:00:23] Grant: On today's episode, we're excited to sit down with two remarkable trans creatives. Our former student, Pace [00:00:30] University alum, and wonderful actor writer, Jesse James Keitel, along with casting director and producer Candido Cornejo Jr. Jesse is known for her groundbreaking work in film and television. [00:00:40] She rose to prominence playing Jerry Kennedy on ABC's Big Sky, becoming the first non binary actor as a network series regular.

[00:00:46] Grant: Jesse's nuanced portrayals continually challenge stereotypes [00:00:50] and open doors for trans and non binary actors in Hollywood. Candido is an acclaimed casting director, producer, and advocate for authentic representation. Known for intentional casting, she [00:01:00] elevates Latinx, trans, and other marginalized voices, ensuring that roles reflect the diversity and depth of their communities.

[00:01:07] Caroline: As members of their communities, Jesse and [00:01:10] Candido are using their voices to advocate for awareness, visibility, and change. We dive into the challenges trans and non binary artists face. to maintain authenticity [00:01:20] in an industry that often reduces them to just their identity. Candido and Jesse share how intentional casting creates spaces where actors are [00:01:30] valued for their talent, not tokenized for their backgrounds.

[00:01:33] Grant: Let's shed some light.[00:01:40] 

[00:01:41] Jesse: Hello. Candido. 

[00:01:42] Caroline: It's so great to see you. 

[00:01:45] Jesse: I wish I'm glad to have you. Thank you. Thank you for having us. 

[00:01:48] Caroline: When we, when Grant and [00:01:50] I organized this and put this together, we had no idea that you, Candido, had just cast Jesse in a project. And while we've both known you for such a [00:02:00] long time in a different way, I'm just wondering, tell us about it.

[00:02:03] Caroline: How did this come about? Connection happened. 

[00:02:05] Grant: Have you met 

[00:02:06] Candido: before? Yeah, I, I don't think so. Have we? No, we, we never met, but [00:02:10] I've known of you because I keep tabs on our fellow trans non binary fellow performers. So I've known of you, but the thing that was interesting, so I were [00:02:20] casting in film in Canada, that's financed by Telefilm by a wonderful producer by the name of Louise Ward.

[00:02:25] Candido: And we've always wanted to work together. And she's also a fellow trans woman who's a producer. [00:02:30] And she gave me this lovely script, it's a thriller, and it's very, you know, very grindhouse, very fun and terror, very fun script. And one of the things that her and I have always [00:02:40] conversed about was doing intentional casting, which is finding a role and then purposely casting someone in marginalized community or of diversity on purpose to show that we're [00:02:50] human beings, because we could talk about inclusivity all we want, but We're more than just trans women or, or Latino or indigenous people.

[00:02:57] Candido: And so we did this with the prior [00:03:00] film where we said, we're going to cast one of the leads to be native, has nothing to do with being a native American or first nations person, but we just want to see the lead to be that. And then we did the same [00:03:10] thing with this. One of our fellow villains, well, she's, you know, I'm not gonna spoil it, but she's, she's a little sassy and a little cold and, and so I was [00:03:20] kind of sitting there like, you know, making my list and, and, and talking to Louise about this and Louise loved the idea.

[00:03:24] Candido: She said, yes, we're going to make this a trans woman on purpose and it has nothing to do with being trans. We don't need to talk about it. [00:03:30] You know, and she's in a relationship with a girl, 

[00:03:31] Jesse: which, yeah, honestly, what was like a big selling point for me too, was that the second I saw that the character was trans, [00:03:40] my spidey senses always kind of tingle where I'm just like, what cringy educational thing am I going to have to read in the script today?

[00:03:48] Jesse: And it was such a relief [00:03:50] when I was like, Oh, she's just a badass. Fantastic. Great. Like, Oh, what a shocker. I'm a normal person. 

[00:03:57] Candido: Yeah. So we made a short list of trans and non [00:04:00] binary performers and I sent them over to Louise and we discussed them. And this is the first time in Caroline Yunas as a casting director, it's really rare to come up with one idea out of that list and [00:04:10] the creatives to agree upon.

[00:04:11] Candido: And Google and then send it out. And I'm saying, yes, I've never had that happen to me before, where we just went out to those, but I said, I think, cause I saw Jesse on Star Trek and I [00:04:20] was like, hello, this is kind of perfect. And we love the idea. We sent the offer out. Let's just see. But in my mind, I'm already preparing to read people to do an open call [00:04:30] and it's.

[00:04:30] Candido: It's a Canadian union, so it's a little tricky with hiring non Canadians and such, and we're preparing for this. And then before we started anything, Tessie's team came out and was like, yeah, she loves it. [00:04:40] She'll do it. I was like, oh, okay, shit. All right. Listen, the strike's for long. As I was reading the script, I was visioning Jesse.

[00:04:48] Candido: It was Jesse and another [00:04:50] performer. It was two people that I had in mind, because when I'm reading the script, I'm already picturing actors. And I was picturing Jesse and this other performer, but then it's like, we all love Jesse. And then here it is. And then we get this email [00:05:00] from you guys. You guys want to come on this?

[00:05:01] Candido: Like, right when we closed the deal with Jesse, we got the email from you guys. Like, you guys want to do a podcast together? I emailed Jesse. This is crazy. 

[00:05:08] Grant: Jesse came in, talked [00:05:10] to, Jesse's an alum of Sands College. Jessica came in to talk to students and she was like, guys, y'all, it's tough out there. I haven't had, you know, I need a job.

[00:05:19] Grant: I don't know what's [00:05:20] happening. And then she's like, I'm leaving LA. I'm going to do this play in New York. So I go and see her in New York and I'm like, afterwards, listen, you know, how's it going? And she's like, I just booked this thriller in Canada. [00:05:30] Like, I'm really excited about it. I was like, amazing. I'm going to hit you up.

[00:05:32] Grant: I'm going to have a podcast. And plot twist. It's just wild that this came to fruition in this way. Jessie, I don't know if you want to sort of [00:05:40] expand on anything. 

[00:05:40] Jesse: I will say there was something that was very relieving about getting an offer. I get offers every now and again and they're often like a very token [00:05:50] feeling trans character.

[00:05:51] Jesse: They're very seldom a non queer role in any way, shape, or form. And that, that can sometimes kind of, kind of weigh hard on me. [00:06:00] And it feels very othering, where that I can only exist in this space, in this industry, as a piece of like, flagship token diversity, which it kind of gets old. And [00:06:10] this was a really a breath of fresh air, just being like, finally, a really fun project that I just get to be 

[00:06:16] Grant: a 

[00:06:16] Jesse: cool girl.

[00:06:16] Grant: You may remember as an alum, but I think probably [00:06:20] in most schools or spaces, we sort of always teach you just got to be yourself, like, you know, know who you are, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? And it's like, Oh, yeah. Okay. [00:06:30] But actually like when you're 18, that doesn't mean 

[00:06:32] Jesse: anything. 

[00:06:32] Grant: Yeah. Who are we?

[00:06:33] Grant: And like, I don't know. I'm, I'm, I'm very different at 18 than I am at 30 than I am at, you know, [00:06:40] you know, you, you, you change a lot, but at the same time, I think back to any number of students who are out now and doing really, really [00:06:50] well. And I know sort of personally a lot about some of their journeys in becoming who they are.

[00:06:57] Grant: And even those that are not necessarily [00:07:00] working, but are aligned in the business or just aligned in their own personal life. And, and I think you're right at 18, it is hard to know like who you are. But what I observe in so many of [00:07:10] these students, yourself included, that the more you become, the more rich I think life comes back to you.

[00:07:19] Grant: And [00:07:20] so I don't know, is there. Something you want to speak to, like, how becoming has opened up doors for you, or limited. 

[00:07:29] Jesse: Yeah. 

[00:07:29] Grant: [00:07:30] Oh, 

[00:07:30] Jesse: sure. I mean, I, I transitioned shortly after college. And I think for me, my definition of being myself when I was in [00:07:40] college was a very rigid idea that maybe it wasn't the most true.

[00:07:44] Jesse: And so I was being that. And then it was also like, why do I hate [00:07:50] this? Then after college, I was like, screw acting. I don't want to do this. And he came, started, started like working in nightlife in New York. And me and my [00:08:00] friends just like wore a bunch of makeup and looked like clowns wearing slutty clothes running around me.

[00:08:06] Jesse: But there was something, there was something about that, that [00:08:10] freed me from free me from the chains of my own, of my own making. You know, that let me go, if I could do this, I could be whoever I want [00:08:20] in the daytime. And that, that I think opened the doors for me because that allowed me to just kind of stop caring and truly like do what I [00:08:30] want, be what I want, be intentional with how I wake up and how I walk through the world.

[00:08:34] Jesse: And I didn't really get an acting career until then. And that's paved the way [00:08:40] for me to, I pay my bills with acting. It's all I've done for the last, you know, X amount of years. And is it at times limiting? Yeah. Sometimes I feel reduced. [00:08:50] Sometimes being trans in Hollywood feels very reductive and it feels like my transness walks into the room before my talent and [00:09:00] resume.

[00:09:00] Jesse: But at the end of the day, I know that's not necessarily true. I'm a boss bitch. I'm talented and I work 

[00:09:05] Grant: hard. It's so much a part of your identity. And then to reduce it to actor [00:09:10] terms, like also so much a part of your brand. 

[00:09:12] Jesse: Well, that's the thing. It's like, sure, I'm trans, but I feel like the, the industry seeks to remind me and the [00:09:20] viewer of that more than it needs.

[00:09:22] Jesse: Ultimately, I am just like a straight white woman. It's kind, it's, I like kind of cringe saying it, but it's like, [00:09:30] I am. And, I might also be trans, but does that mean I'm destined to only ever play roles that are trans, that are [00:09:40] written from people who usually don't understand the lived experience that deeply?

[00:09:45] Jesse: I don't know. I mean, this has been a great year for me acting wise, and I've [00:09:50] gotten to play multiple roles that aren't trans, have that the characters have nothing to do with gender and sexuality. And I think that kind of goes back to what you were [00:10:00] saying about Intentionality, where I am being a bit more intentional now, where if, if I get those tingly red flags, I just say no, or I don't want to do it, and it's, [00:10:10] I feel lucky that I'm able to be intentional with that.

[00:10:12] Grant: And do you wrestle with finding that space of advocacy and being a torchbearer and a trailblazer and sort of wanting, needing, or [00:10:20] being thrust into a space where that's your mantle? And then reconciling that with like, it's Tuesday, and I just want to be Jessie. I don't 

[00:10:27] Jesse: struggle with that at all. There's not one ounce [00:10:30] of me that struggles with that because I've done it.

[00:10:32] Jesse: I keep doing it. And every day when I wake up and I go to work, that is me doing it. I don't need to be an outspoken [00:10:40] advocate. There are people on the ground doing that. I'm just being myself. And if that alone is advocacy, so be it. There's not one ounce of me that struggles with, uh, [00:10:50] I wish this character was more visibly trans.

[00:10:52] Jesse: Actually, I think it's more badass that if I get to play a character that isn't, and I'm just treated like an [00:11:00] actor, where the work that I've put into my craft and my resume and the time and money I've spent improving as an [00:11:10] actor, I hope that speaks in volumes. So if I'm also an advocate, That's just a byproduct.

[00:11:17] Grant: Candida, you already mentioned sort of intentional [00:11:20] casting, and I guess, what does it mean to be intentional? What does it mean for you to be intentional in your identity? What does it mean for you to be intentional in your work? And then, really, what does it mean to be [00:11:30] intentional in casting? 

[00:11:31] Candido: So, I think that for us as, as casting professionals and my fellow creative allies, who really support diversity and [00:11:40] inclusion and equity, we're always having the conversations of casting authentically now, which is fantastic.

[00:11:45] Candido: Cause we do need that. There's no reasons why a Latino person cannot play a Latino role. You [00:11:50] know, we're not living in the eighties or nineties or even the two thousands anymore, where that's a thing we're seeing finally arise with native actors, which is fantastic. Casting directors like Angelique [00:12:00] Muthunder and Renee Hain, who are doing phenomenal work.

[00:12:03] Candido: And now I'm kind of being known for that as well. We're always working really, really hard [00:12:10] to have these communities represent themselves and including the trans and non binary communities. I mean, obviously, you know, I'm trans woman, but I'm also Latina indigenous. And so [00:12:20] those communities mean a lot to me.

[00:12:22] Candido: But a part of that conversation is also. Look, like Jesse was saying, like, we're not just trans people. We're not just [00:12:30] native people. Let's also fight the stereotypes of why does a black person need to be the robber? Why does the Mexican person need to be the person [00:12:40] working at the farm or at the grocery store?

[00:12:43] Candido: I'm like, why does the Asian need to be the mathematician? It's like, all right, these are stereotypes that have existed for years, but it's time to filing [00:12:50] that because we see our faces. It is. Everywhere, right? And so it's been amazing to be to to work with creatives and say, I would [00:13:00] love this character to be this because whenever portrayed is that now, are we limiting to just that?

[00:13:06] Candido: No, because that could be a problem to, you know, you don't want to gate keeps. [00:13:10] everybody else, because that's also a problem. But I think it's awesome to say, Hey, in that film, it's a love interest is native. Like, how awesome is [00:13:20] that? You know, and we were able to hire to Tonka means who's now whose career is blowing up, but to see him portray opposite an Afro Latina in this [00:13:30] Latino, I guess, story, but like we cast from all over parts of all over the world.

[00:13:34] Candido: And then with this to say, like, we trans people are not trans. Just, we're not just the sex [00:13:40] workers, we're not just all those, all those stereotypes to show that, I mean, let's be honest, what's happening in this country right now. The problem is because there's a perception of who we are, [00:13:50] probably don't know trans women, but they have a perception of who we are.

[00:13:54] Candido: And to showcase that we have a humanity to us. We're human beings. We are nurses. [00:14:00] We are, we are managers. We are casting directors. We are actresses. Do we suffer a, a door being shut on our faces because they see a trans woman and they don't want to [00:14:10] hire us because they have a perception of us? Yes. That's also another conversation to say that they didn't want me to come up as a trans woman being a casting director because they were like, you, you're not going to [00:14:20] work.

[00:14:20] Candido: The studios won't take you seriously. You know, or when I was an executive at. A big makeup corporation and they said the same thing. We're like, you're not, you're never going to be a vice president or director or [00:14:30] anything because they don't take trans women seriously. And I'm like, why not? It's yeah. Okay.

[00:14:34] Candido: Society has constructed a, a limit to us saying that there is no free for [00:14:40] society. And those of us that are fighting for are showing that yes. And then they meet me and then it's kind of, it's that really weird conversation. Oh, I didn't know that your kind was really nice. [00:14:50] Like I literally saw it to my face or I didn't know that you were so talented or, or you're so professional like you're so you look like you're wearing like a Calvin Klein suit or [00:15:00] Hugo Boss and I'm like, I'm a manager like of course I'm wearing a suit like I'm an examiner, you know what I mean, but then I sit and I think about it's because these people were never [00:15:10] exposed to this but it's because why don't we see trans women in these, in these roles is because they think they assume that we are this one thing and we're not and we're, you know, [00:15:20] I'm just sitting there existing, just me showing up to work and showing that we can have these roles.

[00:15:25] Candido: Is doing the work and now back in the industry is, I made [00:15:30] a point of coming back as a trans woman, like being out and loud and proud about it to say, I'm proud that I'm a trans woman and I'm at the level that I'm at, and I'm working on these features and I [00:15:40] don't just do trans stories. I cast films with the likes of Pam Dixon's and back in the day it was Fern Champion and I worked with Felicia Joseph at ABC, you [00:15:50] know, and, and to say that I'm a trans woman.

[00:15:52] Candido: And I've done this, and I'm fighting that narrative to say is that. We belong in society too. And so with intentional casting, [00:16:00] it's that it's just say, nobody's talking about her transness or what her gender is. She just is. And that's how we're going to create opportunities for people like Jesse to [00:16:10] say, yes, we still need trans stories.

[00:16:12] Candido: Yes, we do need trans people to tell those trans stories, but you need to look beyond that because it's not just that Jesse's gonna be doing this for the rest [00:16:20] of her life. You know, Jesse? 

[00:16:21] Jesse: Oh, I, there's no way I, oh, I, I would rather not be an actor, honestly. I would rather stop acting than [00:16:30] continually get reduced to, for me, the most boring part about my life.

[00:16:34] Jesse: It pretty overwhelming at times, and it's constantly, it, it's a very othering feeling [00:16:40] of going, okay. I am considered for this role only because I'm trans or I'm not considered for that role because I'm trans. And I'm like, I'm a good [00:16:50] actor and I've worked hard and I have a nice resume. It feels very limiting at times.

[00:16:54] Jesse: And so it's, it's nice to catch a project like this. I 

[00:16:57] Caroline: love that. Cassie, what does it [00:17:00] mean for you to be intentional and also intentional in your work? 

[00:17:06] Jesse: I guess what the first thing that comes to mind is being [00:17:10] true to. What I need and not just not necessarily just as an actor, but as a person, you know, am I [00:17:20] doing something that supports who I am, where I am and where I want to go?

[00:17:24] Jesse: That's, that's what I'm experiencing. 

[00:17:26] Caroline: If it's led you to be really strong in [00:17:30] spaces that you currently occupy, has it supported you? Has it opened doors for you in that respect? Aye. 

[00:17:36] Jesse: Probably it's probably if it hasn't opened them. It's [00:17:40] probably kept them open. I, I think being, it sounds a little corny, but being intentional, being true to yourself, you end up working on projects [00:17:50] that more closely align with who you are and.

[00:17:54] Jesse: Values that you support and I think that's you're [00:18:00] always going to be in a room where you might not feel welcomed every now and again. And I think having that stronger base, that stronger sense of self, uh, definitely helps. [00:18:10] And hopefully we'll pave the way for the next room to be more intentionally selected.

[00:18:16] Caroline: Navigating trans identity in the room, and I'm [00:18:20] talking about educating crew, and teams, and colleagues. So then, it's healthy and safe to be on sets, to be in spaces. Is that conversation [00:18:30] still happening in a way that is ad nauseum? Or Are you making it your responsibility to educate? Do we still need to educate?

[00:18:39] Caroline: [00:18:40] Where are we in this conversation? 

[00:18:42] Jesse: You know, I, I think what's interesting is I might be very publicly trans, but I'm not necessarily very [00:18:50] trans in public. So, for me, Jessie, personally, today, in the end of 2024, it's not a huge issue for me. Which I'm very [00:19:00] thankful for, but that doesn't mean it's not a huge issue.

[00:19:03] Jesse: And steps that I've been on over the last few years that have included [00:19:10] a trans character that's written to be this way typically have a Included like gender and sexuality stuff in [00:19:20] there, like diversity, handbook, whatnot, at the beginning of a process that be like, this is this, this is that don't do this.

[00:19:28] Jesse: And I think that's important. [00:19:30] And I think if you have a character. from a lived experience that no one on the creative team is. I think it's important to [00:19:40] have a consultant, someone who you can go to. And on Big Sky for season one, we did not have any of that. And there were moments that [00:19:50] I've, I felt a bit.

[00:19:51] Jesse: lost. I felt a bit untaken care of. And in season two, that changed. I became the consultant and that's a position I was paid and credited for. And I think [00:20:00] that that's important. 

[00:20:01] Grant: Still struck by people want me to talk about representation and yet here we are. 

[00:20:06] Jesse: But you know, you know what? On one hand, if me [00:20:10] trying to humanize myself and my peers like me, if that does that, if that, if that normalizes.

[00:20:19] Jesse: Me in the [00:20:20] workplace, I guess, and also, in a way, kind of elevates me. Disney put me on, how, I can't tell you how many commercials for, for Big Sky on ABC and [00:20:30] Hulu, and there were times I felt like their flagship token of trans inclusion, but also, that did elevate me. So yeah, I, [00:20:40] it might, sometimes it might make me cringe having to talk about like pronouns and like, what does it mean?

[00:20:45] Jesse: But I don't know. It kind of just feels like that's of the [00:20:50] zeitgeist right now. 

[00:20:51] Caroline: So representation. Is critical, but we also know how that goes beyond visibility with talent. So Candida, this [00:21:00] question's for you. You occupy an important space as a casting director. Uh, it's also pre production. And so what I'm wondering.

[00:21:09] Caroline: Is [00:21:10] how do you go about navigating trans identity in the room with crew, with teams, with colleagues, with production in a climate [00:21:20] that's healthy and safe without making it your responsibility to have to educate everyone? Is it still a concern? 

[00:21:27] Candido: Yes, it's still a concern because [00:21:30] when I thought that we had done a lot of progressiveness, And work, because the thing is, we've seen a lot of fantastic work in our communities as casting directors [00:21:40] and to our fellow creatives.

[00:21:42] Candido: We've seen that. We've seen and think the work of people like Charlie Hano, you know, and KY and, and, and people prior [00:21:50] to that, you know, who really worked. Get a space and recognition in our community but it's really hard to not feel [00:22:00] disheartened when you go and you work with really big people or big productions and they still have an old mentality of who we are [00:22:10] and this old narrative.

[00:22:12] Candido: It's such a dinosaur, really, and they even say, like, I was kind of like, well, the history that this is, this is too new, and I was like, if you want to talk about history and I [00:22:20] can't, I'm so sorry, but, you know, I come from the Pashup, the Gonsalvo Czech people, and the third gender existed way before the colonization, and the two spirit people across the Americas, you know, like [00:22:30] people that are Nadleche and Wintas, and these were sacred people in their tribes.

[00:22:34] Candido: Before you came along and destroyed them and eradicated that sacredness to, to our third genders. [00:22:40] So let's, let's correct history for, for one, but second, it's really disheartening to see that these people of power, because these are respected people, have a false narrative of who we are. [00:22:50] And I suffered kind of firsthand for the record, the casting office that I was working with was absolutely fantastic.

[00:22:57] Candido: They had my back, they were taking care of me. They actually [00:23:00] fired me specifically because if we were specifically looking for a trans character in a big production with a big director, the casting office was great, but the creatives [00:23:10] did not understand. What being a trans woman is being a Latina trans woman, or at least there was a [00:23:20] they thought that they knew what it was.

[00:23:21] Candido: And then so they asked us to do this big search for this. But in the end, what really happened was, well, it's actually a queer man that's a feminine. And it's like, Well, that's not we've been looking for, [00:23:30] for the past, like, 1000 weeks. So like, whatever you do, because we kept the feedback was, well, we want this.

[00:23:35] Candido: No, no, no, it was a no, no, no, it's not this. And then the conversations were really uncomfortable. [00:23:40] Because I'm like, that's, that's, that's Not a trans woman. And then I had to kind of like be like, okay, look, we're in the 70s. We're in an era where we're being trans in this particular part of the world. It doesn't mean the same thing.

[00:23:49] Candido: And [00:23:50] also the problem that we're encountering is that the feminine queer people that were being women in this part of the world in this era with no money because [00:24:00] they couldn't afford the hormones or the surgeries that was That was pretty new in this part of the world, and a lot of them couldn't afford it.

[00:24:07] Candido: So we did have to have a conversation of what are [00:24:10] transvestites, son las transvestites. And I know that term is really triggering, but I'm like, but that's real in my culture in Latino America, because the thing is, they couldn't afford [00:24:20] that. So all we had was, you know, To do the makeup and the dressing up at night because during the day, we would get killed, you know, we were prosecuted during the day.

[00:24:28] Candido: So I'm like, I had to [00:24:30] open up that conversation and be like, so, because the thing is, the trans women that do exist now have done surgery, have are doing hormones, they're not going to [00:24:40] pass for the queer effeminate man in the beginning. And that's how the conversation that some of them are not going to feel comfortable playing cisgender men in the beginning, and that's fine.

[00:24:49] Candido: But you need to [00:24:50] be okay with that. Right. And so that limited that search that we were doing, I think that the most uncomfortable thing that I encountered personally was when I was trying to give my perspective, [00:25:00] this is the experience. It wasn't a listened to by the creative and the director. That was really like, shocking.

[00:25:08] Candido: But again, the casting office [00:25:10] was fantastic. The main casting directors were like, making sure it was, and they, they were in agreement. They were totally fine. And then we understood that, oh my God, you're looking for a queer man, you know, not a trans. And so like, shit, we gotta like [00:25:20] regroup now and, and kind of like, you know, think about this in a different way.

[00:25:23] Candido: But it was really frustrating and to kind of sit there and feel like you weren't being heard by this amazing [00:25:30] director that you. always looked up to, and it's like, you're not seeing me. You're not seeing my people. I recognize that you hired me. Thank you so much for caring that much to bring in [00:25:40] somebody, and that you're lucky to find a trans person that is a casting director at my level that can do that, that can go in and help you with both communities being trans and Latinx.[00:25:50] 

[00:25:50] Candido: But that, that, it was, After like 16 years of doing this, I was like, I thought that we were fine. And then clearly we're not. And it was, it was a new sense of [00:26:00] comfort. It wasn't like flat out in my face. Cause I've had that, you know, had studio executives be like, why are you in the woman's bathroom? Or, you know, you shouldn't be in the woman's bathroom or la la la.

[00:26:09] Candido: Like it still [00:26:10] happens, you know? And so, and, but that stuff, it's like, We're dealing with on a personal level and as a community that I could help that fight, I know how to handle that situation, but [00:26:20] this situation, walking the lines professionally as a casting person, I wasn't even a casting director, I was a associate casting director, it's like, this is not my office, I can't really sit here and be like, I need to, I [00:26:30] need to tell you my truth in a way that's appropriate with my cast.

[00:26:32] Candido: I could tell it to my casting colleagues, you know, And there was a high level of understanding, which was great, but then it became the old conversations [00:26:40] of one thing that did come out from them was, well, can you know, this is not our movie? I'm like, I get that. You don't need to tell me that this is not our movie.

[00:26:47] Candido: I understand. Like, we're not the [00:26:50] producers here, but I Trust me, I know the politics, I know the power dynamics here, but it is my movie, because it's about a trans Latina woman, and you're telling a story about my people. Well, I [00:27:00] must tell you my feelings on this, because it is about my people. You know, if not, then what am I doing here?

[00:27:06] Candido: You know, I'm not going to be your token either. 

[00:27:09] Grant: Did you hire me [00:27:10] because it looks good, or did you hire me because you want my voice? Did you hire me because you want me to do, be, to be authentic in this? And, and if that's the case, then that's what I'm doing. [00:27:20] So, it's such a you know, when things are at stake and you're reconciling, I think your ethos and your identity and you're reconciling your job or your career, it's, you know, [00:27:30] not to be trite or cliche, but it's like, it's those moments that, that really speak to true You know, true courage, true bravery, to sort of be [00:27:40] like, you know, I got a lot of things on the line.

[00:27:41] Grant: I don't know, I didn't, I don't, I don't, I know who I am right now, but I don't know how to reconcile it against the sort of power dynamics or the politics and am I gonna be [00:27:50] quiet or am I gonna sort of try to move this needle? That's some really impressive story. 

[00:27:55] Candido: One thing that I really wanna touch on that I think is also important to understand for our fellow creatives, because [00:28:00] a lot of our, let's, you know, a lot of our students here who are actors.

[00:28:03] Candido: I know are going to also become producers and writers and directors and, and, uh, kind of them taking this [00:28:10] with them is that provide the support that we need for your search as well. We need time. We need money. We need resources. We were only given, [00:28:20] like, two to three weeks to find this person that it was a triple threat that it had.

[00:28:25] Candido: It has an Oscar or an Emmy that seems like Jennifer [00:28:30] Hudson and that is 40 plus years old. I'm like, that person doesn't exist yet. I need to actually go search. Like I need to go find this person that is singing the Mickey's in [00:28:40] Argentina, like on a Sunday, you know, like the, like that full of a likelihood, like I'm gonna be, but you know, we need that support to do this properly [00:28:50] because that wasn't fair.

[00:28:51] Candido: To, to be given that amount of time to try to find this person, and I think that another thing, and I was talking to Jesse about this, is like, I think that [00:29:00] one of the more uncomfortable things is that part of the work is to let know people that are trans and non binary, or part of this community, That there is a [00:29:10] space for you that you can be an actor or actress.

[00:29:12] Candido: So you do dare to make the move to become it, to do it, to take the training, to, you know, to, [00:29:20] to expose yourself to auditions too, because the truth is a lot of people like I will never be an actress because look at me. Right, that's, that's a really hard narrative to understand, but to tell them there [00:29:30] is a space for you and we're seeing people like Jesse, you know, people like Michaela J.

[00:29:33] Candido: Rodriguez, like doing their work, they're starting to kind of come in. But then I think that what I saw was, all right, now that we're [00:29:40] doing this, now that we're playing at the level that I was at. doing this church with all those people. This is the Olympics, man. This is like a [00:29:50] powerful director, a veteran director.

[00:29:52] Candido: And what this office taught me was, we're looking at quality, like they're like, don't, I cannot look at people unless if they [00:30:00] are Oscar award winning performance, there is no exaggeration in that. And then so I started seeing like, Oh my god, a lot of our girls at this age where things are not there yet, [00:30:10] specifically for this specifically for this, I think that we could do, we could talk about other movies if it's up, but this specific thing is like, Oh my God, like, this is [00:30:20] really difficult.

[00:30:20] Candido: So how can I take this and encourage all my girls that came in and all of the non binary people? To keep going [00:30:30] and keep training. So maybe you're not ready for this right now. It does not mean that you're not ever, no, no, no. Let this encourage you and inspire you to keep going in your career. So when this role comes [00:30:40] again, or something like this, you are ready.

[00:30:42] Candido: And we could say, Oh my God, you're ready. And I could find this person and say, Here you go. I found them. They are ready. They're [00:30:50] trained, but that's going to require so much work that's beyond intentional casting or whatever, because it's like these actresses deserve not just to be seen and considered, [00:31:00] but to be given the opportunity to train and become seasoned and get the experience needed to get to a level that they need.

[00:31:07] Grant: Jesse, I, you've sort of already touched on [00:31:10] this also regarding the tokenism or the othering. Some of what we're talking about on this series for us is Sure, there's visibility and representation, and it's [00:31:20] really easy to do it by putting it on stage or in front of the camera. But what's wonderful about having Candido is that she's doing it from the casting perspective.

[00:31:28] Grant: But you've been on camera, right? [00:31:30] You've been on stage. And can you speak a little bit about what it is like to sort of be who you are and then be with a crew, to be with a group of people that [00:31:40] are collaborating and making a project They've really only checked the box and they haven't necessarily created a space of inclusion [00:31:50] off camera.

[00:31:50] Jesse: I can. I feel very lucky and often, you know, my everyday life is pretty much a breeze. I walk through the world as if It's a relatively [00:32:00] pretty late 20s, early 30s girl. And that's how the world treats me. And most of my experiences on set are like that. There was one project [00:32:10] I was a part of for quite a while that I felt so unprotected on set.

[00:32:16] Jesse: I was going home crying every single day. And while I [00:32:20] never misgendered in real life. On that set, I was misgendered every single day. I was sirred. An actor told a [00:32:30] higher up that I looked too pretty, and so they changed my hair and makeup. It truly was such a jarring, Experience that it made me, it really made me want to [00:32:40] not be an actor anymore, only to realize it wasn't that wasn't the entire industry.

[00:32:45] Jesse: That was just that experience. But I think it showed how, you know, they really, [00:32:50] they, they threw me into a world without providing any safety net. I was the only person like me. involved in the process and I ended up having to [00:33:00] advocate a lot for myself and for the character and for the community in a way that was really unfair.

[00:33:07] Jesse: I wasn't paid to do that. 

[00:33:08] Grant: Do you find that [00:33:10] the burden falls to you? Do you find that you have to advocate to get GLAAD in? Do you find that writers come to you and say, how would you help me write this trans character because we [00:33:20] don't have a trans writer on staff? 

[00:33:21] Jesse: Well, it depends. I do think anyone can write any character.

[00:33:25] Jesse: But if you're writing about a lived experience, you have no real understanding of [00:33:30] you're doing a disservice to it. That same project came back at me and said, we have a bisexual writer. How is that the same? It's not, [00:33:40] it's, it's, it's not. And, you know, I, I do find myself often advocating for the character, but I think that's also productions would [00:33:50] be lucky to have an actor willing and able and brave enough.

[00:33:54] Jesse: to advocate for their character that way. Not everyone is going to be equipped or [00:34:00] prepared or want to do that. So I would rather speak up about something if there's an area of opportunity to have a more honest and well rounded representation than just [00:34:10] like, hey look, here's this person from this community even though their character is not written 

[00:34:16] Grant: I worry sometimes that we get into the [00:34:20] DEI, or we get into BIPOC, or we get into LGBTQIA and it's such a convenient societal thing to put an acronym around something.

[00:34:28] Grant: But diversity [00:34:30] and equity and inclusion, they're three different things. But we love sort of making it like, well, this is DEI, right? We can't separate it out. I only understand the G, right? Like, I [00:34:40] don't, I don't really know what it's like to be L. I don't really know the other story, but because I think sometimes there's this danger of putting these acronyms together, it feels [00:34:50] like, Well, then you're a group.

[00:34:52] Grant: You're a community. While the intersectionality of it, and we can be allies inside of that, there's a false narrative that I think is created [00:35:00] sometimes by creating these acronyms. 

[00:35:02] Jesse: Well, and that's what's so funny too. I realized during press for Queer as Folk, we were asked as a cast, who are you? How do you [00:35:10] identify?

[00:35:11] Jesse: I'm like a straight white woman, if we're really looking at it, that's the box I check. Yeah, I'm trans, but whoop dee doo. So it's funny to me to get [00:35:20] lumped into when, when roles are like, we're looking for an LGBTQ actor to play this. Baby, you want a lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer person? I'm [00:35:30] like, honey, what does that mean?

[00:35:31] Jesse: What 

[00:35:31] Candido: I want to jump on with that for Jesse is that I think that it's behind, what is the intention here? What is the, do you have a profound understanding of what you're [00:35:40] asking for? 

[00:35:40] Jesse: Why is this character included? 

[00:35:43] Candido: Yeah, or why is this acronym included in this character? Like, if it's a trans person, then you need to, you need to ask if legally we could put [00:35:50] we're looking for a performer to play a trans woman.

[00:35:52] Candido: Because we legally can't say, must be a trans woman. But we can't just slap on LGBTQIA, like, what does that mean? It's like when we do Latino searches, it's like, [00:36:00] okay, I'm looking for a Latine actor to do this. Okay, well, Latino, we have, we have Afro Latinos, we have Asian Latinos, we have Indigenous Latinos, we [00:36:10] have Latinos in Puerto Rico, we have Latinos in Mexico, like what?

[00:36:13] Candido: So it's like, so this person is a story and based in Mexico, and if it's in Mexico, it's in Guadalajara, it's in a Mexico City, like what? So it's like, [00:36:20] we put like, looking for a performer to play a Latin A character is in Mexico City, or whatever. Like, we have to be able to. Thoroughly understand what we're saying, but you [00:36:30] can't just slap things on just for the sake of it.

[00:36:32] Candido: Like, look, it's another checkmark. Like, that's a disservice because now we're seeing encouraging to, and that's amazing. Like, yeah, we're encouraging LGBTQIA, [00:36:40] we're encouraging, you know, trans people, we're encouraging, and then they include this and they include that. And it's like, can we just go back to like the storyline here and say, what is important for this character that we need to [00:36:50] be looking at?

[00:36:50] Candido: You know, it's like when we do land acknowledgement, it's It's like when we do land acknowledgements, it's like, okay, why, why are we doing that? You know, it's like, you know, are we, is it [00:37:00] just in this organization that's a bunch of like white people that it's like, what does it mean to them or who's doing it?

[00:37:05] Candido: We need to start questioning what is your intention with this? Is the intention not only a good [00:37:10] intention, but do you know what you're talking about? Do you know why you're asking for that? Thank you for including us. I think I understand your heart in the right place, but do you know what you're asking for?

[00:37:19] Candido: Like, are [00:37:20] you thoroughly understanding what that means? And if you don't have somebody do it, have somebody talk to somebody, educate yourself before you slap it on. 

[00:37:28] Jesse: In terms of being intentional [00:37:30] with casting and with breakdowns, I understand the need at times to cast a wide net when you really don't know who this character is.

[00:37:38] Jesse: But I also think [00:37:40] specificity breeds really better work sometimes. What you're referencing being like, this is this type of person from here, from there, of this descent, yada, yada, yada. I can look at [00:37:50] the broad range of friends of mine who are queer, non binary, or trans, whatever, and us all getting called in for the same role.

[00:37:57] Jesse: Me, Trace Lissette, Alexandra Gray, and Chris [00:38:00] Renfro are four very different kinds of actors. Who all should play four very different types of roles, and yet there's a world where we would get called in for some of the same parts, and [00:38:10] that's absolutely bananas to me. And it's a waste of someone's time. 

[00:38:15] Grant: Wow, fascinating.

[00:38:16] Grant: All of a sudden it's not identity, it's like, well, trans [00:38:20] is a type. We're typing you, we're othering you by simply making it 

[00:38:24] Candido: that. It's like going back to the comedian film, right, that we got Jesse in. So, after we had the [00:38:30] conversation, and we want this character to be trans, great. I could easily put in Every single trans woman actor that I know, and then both, but that's not what I did.

[00:38:38] Candido: I didn't put all those names because [00:38:40] they're all very different. I don't really see, I'm not gonna say who they are, but certain people do this specific character. But I pictured Jesse and I pictured Damian Terriquez, who is a [00:38:50] wonderful non binary actor, but is sassy as fuck, you know? So it's like, I know Jesse and Damian could do this, and they're specific to this role that could do this with their eyes, [00:39:00] you know?

[00:39:00] Candido: But the short was this small. The list was three, four names, when Caroline, you know, that's kind of a no no. Because when they say, give me a Latina actress [00:39:10] that is 30s as an action star, then I could, okay, Michelle Rodriguez, Jessica Alba, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It goes, it goes on and on and on. But the thing is, our community is so small still, that when [00:39:20] we're specifically looking for this, I could probably put three names here.

[00:39:23] Candido: As, as the trans woman, period, as you're saying, Jesse, the list is more people, but it's still [00:39:30] significantly smaller than all the lists out there in that particular area. And I think that what casting directors do, they just look at that one list of all the trans women, and it's like, oh, no, no, no, [00:39:40] you need to go further.

[00:39:41] Candido: Yes, go to that list, but now see from those people, Who could do this? Who could do that? Who could this? Cause we're not the same. It will be the same thing. If we're looking for Latino activism, you put [00:39:50] all of us in there. It will be ridiculous. We'll never finish casting. 

[00:39:52] Caroline: You can go on for days about underrepresented communities and how our lists [00:40:00] and casting are meant to just go on and miles long, but really the reality is there's only a very small handful who can step into the space of what's [00:40:10] needed.

[00:40:10] Caroline: And that's across the board. Those are conversations that need to happen, top down and to be opened up and to be explored and to, as you said, Candido, to be [00:40:20] supported with time and financially to create space and bring more in. And so with that, let's talk about the dream. We know a little about where [00:40:30] you both have been, where you are now.

[00:40:32] Caroline: What's next for. You, but also for the spaces that you're in, what's, what's that dream? How do you envision [00:40:40] that? 

[00:40:40] Jesse: You know, I, it was funny. I actually think the dream of what, what I wanted for my career kind of changed over the last like two years or so. I think I [00:40:50] really wanted, and I still do obviously want to just do like work.

[00:40:54] Jesse: I'm proud of work that people care about, of course, but honestly, I really want consistency. [00:41:00] That's the dream. I love acting. Acting is so fun. I absolutely hate Hollywood. I absolutely hate the [00:41:10] pursuit of acting. And if I had a job I loved with people I enjoy, that is fun. And I, I can, pay off my house with, I, sign me [00:41:20] up.

[00:41:20] Jesse: Like, like that's, that's the dream. 

[00:41:22] Candido: Consistent work is always nice. Mine has also, mine hasn't changed. Like I still want to be what Laura Kennedy had at Warner Brothers and [00:41:30] be the head of casting and be working on amazing films as a cast and director and dabble in producing and directing as well because I just love being creative and creating content.[00:41:40] 

[00:41:40] Candido: But I think that it's really proactive. I've been learning this for the past few years as well, two to three years of putting those goals as to what am I doing next immediately [00:41:50] that's going to be effective. And with my experience that I had on this film and what I've been seeing and observing with intentional casting and everything, particularly for the trans [00:42:00] community has been really that the loudest thing that happened was.

[00:42:03] Candido: Oh, my God. My girls are not there yet. And it's interesting to watch the reaction because I understand that could be offensive. Some some girls are gonna [00:42:10] feel a certain way about that. But I know that like, if I have a very intense, high level thing, and I go to Jesse, I know that Jesse will be like, I'm gonna be like, we're gonna work this [00:42:20] girl, like, we're gonna like, really work this like, and work the shit out, because I know that you're an actress, and we're gonna get you there.

[00:42:26] Candido: And I know that she's going to be open, and it's going to take the direction and this there [00:42:30] is no ego, I'm an actress. When you said that you're an actress is that you are willing to do the work. When people like Jessica Lange and Maggie Smith is saying that they still get nervous with things, [00:42:40] like, hello, but they're putting the work in.

[00:42:42] Candido: And that's what I expect my actors. And what was really interesting when I said this out loud, just kind of break us up. Cause I, there's something that I want to [00:42:50] do with CSA for my next initiative is like, how can we get them? Because the truth is a lot of these people don't have resources. They can't afford training.

[00:42:58] Candido: They are, they're too [00:43:00] scared to come to Hollywood and take a class or whatever. And that's a whole tricky thing to say, how can we get there? And then, you know, the response was, you know, when some people like, Oh, I'm ready. Oh, you know, that's interesting. [00:43:10] Cause I'm ready. I'm an actor or, or some of the.

[00:43:13] Candido: Performers flat out told me, oh, I'm an offer only, and it's, you're not, you're not there yet. It's lovely to think that you're, [00:43:20] and also know that I'm gonna respect you like this, like Jessica does with her eyes closed. Just make it an offer. But if we're doing something that was a 180, if it was this other film, and be like, no, [00:43:30] Jesse, I need to bring you in a message with the team and be like, I need to work with.

[00:43:33] Candido: I need to get her there because I need to make sure that the director sees the best thing possible, right? Because I want her to get cast. That's, [00:43:40] that's what we do. And the resistance to that. And so there was a little bit of, well, I'm an offer only. I don't do that. Or I'm, I'm ready. And I'm like, you, okay.

[00:43:47] Candido: All right. I, I, I believe [00:43:50] that you will get there. Then why aren't you there? Beyond all the role, I don't have an opportunity. I was like, okay, but the opportunities have been opening. But I'm not saying this to be judgmental in a state play form. I'm [00:44:00] saying this, let's fix that. Let's do something. Well, what's next for me is I want to do another initiative with CSA, and I was talking to Jesse about this, where we open up [00:44:10] the open calls to trans performers and non binary performers, select our top people, the people that have potential, sign them up for a nine month program where [00:44:20] they get trained by the casting coaches in Hollywood, with casting directors, do teaching, not just any casting director, but the people that enjoy doing it, that want to get them there, [00:44:30] And have them have that experience and then graduate that program and have that experience and then go out there and then keep doing it.

[00:44:37] Candido: Elevate yourselves. How do we elevate our girls, [00:44:40] our communities? That's what we need to also focus on. It's not just opening opportunities and being inclusive. It doesn't stop there. That was my big learning point is we elevate. So you're [00:44:50] ready for one of those times. 

[00:44:51] Grant: I love that. What's something that no one's ever asked you that you'd love to speak on?

[00:44:55] Jesse: I actually had one of your students ask me and it was the first time anyone had ever [00:45:00] asked me and I wish in like a professional setting people would think like this sometimes. They were like, they were a queer student and they said, do you think being queer is limiting in your [00:45:10] career? And I, I forget how I answered it in the moment, but I thought about that question a lot, and I actually think it's been, being a trans woman, I think it's been the biggest gift to my [00:45:20] career, and also the biggest burden.

[00:45:22] Jesse: And I think that goes across the board with whatever makes you different. Like, if you're tall, and have red hair, that's going to be [00:45:30] a gift. And you may book, that may get you in the room, in certain rooms. And it's also going to keep you out of others. And I think as I'm progressing through my career, I'm learning [00:45:40] that things that make me different are not necessarily always othering.

[00:45:43] Jesse: Sometimes they are celebrated, but there is a weird catch 22 of my, my [00:45:50] gold is also my, my limitation. But people have stopped asking me. Like what my, I see my place in the industry as besides [00:46:00] being, I've recently fallen into this typecast of very well dressed, very confident, sexy and kind of a bitch. And I'm, [00:46:10] no one asks me about that.

[00:46:11] Jesse: And I think the roles that have suited me best have had nothing to do with gender or sexuality. The roles that fit that, [00:46:20] where I kind of just get to. Be an extension of myself. And it's interesting how I keep getting branded as an advocate, and it [00:46:30] seems like people forget I am an actor. And, and so that's, I look forward to the day where people continue to ask me about acting.

[00:46:39] Candido: That's a really [00:46:40] good one. I think I think that it's valid because I think that that's a question that's being asked a lot because it is an uncomfortable question because you expect. I mean, there's a lot of answers to [00:46:50] that. I feel that it can be limiting, but it doesn't have to be. And the best way for you to not limit yourself, to not put yourself on that [00:47:00] limitation is show the world, show us that you're a great actress or a great actor, because when you do that, we no longer see.[00:47:10] 

[00:47:10] Candido: The identities, there's a lot behind it, of course, because it could be a best actress, but, and then, you know, you have to do the, does your name mean anything a lot, a lot, a lot, you know, all that stuff and going into distribution and [00:47:20] blah, blah, blah, and the politics behind that. But, but the truth is, is that the people that have made it because they've established their names, we no longer kind of see that yet [00:47:30] when we need to see, like, are they Latino?

[00:47:31] Candido: Are they this? Are they that? Sure. But, like, people like Benicio Del Toro, or, or Damian Bashir, you know, or Salma Hayek. Yeah, you [00:47:40] think they're Latino, but that's the first thing that comes up. So when we're making these lists, when we're saying we need a, a, a blockbuster star to raise a contingency and we have the money for it, all those names go down now [00:47:50] as actors that live the contingency, right?

[00:47:53] Candido: That's the goal, you know, and we need to do that for our community. And so it goes back to what I was saying, is that you need to [00:48:00] start showing me that like, that you are an actor, you're an actor, and I'm starting to see that with certain people of our community, and I'm really proud of that, because we weren't there years ago.

[00:48:07] Candido: We really weren't. But because we've granted [00:48:10] opportunity, and we're now giving people jobs that can get to that level, it's amazing, but it's not enough. We need more. But I'm starting, like, perfect [00:48:20] example, For this, for this Canadian film and talking about putting like the trans women in different places.

[00:48:25] Candido: So another actress, Juliana Dole, who I love and I adore, [00:48:30] she came to mind as an actress as well. As an actress, because she wasn't necessarily right for the role that Jesse, you know, that we were thinking Jesse for, but I know her as [00:48:40] an actress. I'm like, you know what, you know what would be interesting? I want, I want her to read for the lead because she's cherry, you know, she's pretty, she's soft, she's glamorous.

[00:48:48] Candido: She'll fall in love with the boy. She's [00:48:50] not supposed to do whatever, but I, but it's going to require an edge and a darkness that we need to bring out. I know I could do that with her. So when I called her team and work with her, I was [00:49:00] like, here's the test, right? It's like, I hope she doesn't come back and say, I'm going to grow only whatever, you know, I said, I really want to work with you because I really want to bring out the art.

[00:49:08] Candido: And the first time was a little rough, but [00:49:10] then when you came to the second time, We did the homework, we studied together, we worked the room, and I called her team. It didn't go her way at the end of the day, [00:49:20] but it's like, I saw something that I haven't seen her do before. She's shown me. She's an actress and then she's hungry and she wasn't afraid.

[00:49:28] Candido: She wasn't afraid to go there. [00:49:30] She did it. She did the work and she had no ego about it. She's like, yes, let's do it. I'm like, that's when you show me that you're an actress and that's when I'm starting to put you on this and things like that, where I'm like, I'm [00:49:40] putting you there because you're not that token, but it just doesn't happen enough.

[00:49:44] Candido: So as I challenge our colleagues to be more inclusive and give us spaces and [00:49:50] understanding and empathy, et cetera. And also as our fellow community members. To be like, you must be open, be willing to learn because being an actor or an actor or performer [00:50:00] requires a lot of work. To showcase and you must be willing to do that.

[00:50:03] Candido: And this is for any actor, not just our community. Any actor is that there is a lot of work to be an [00:50:10] actor and to succeed. And if you are willing to put that work into it is up to you. Nobody else is responsible for that work, but yourself. 

[00:50:17] Caroline: Amazing. Amazing. Are we going to the [00:50:20] lightning? Well, 

[00:50:20] Grant: let's go for it.

[00:50:21] Grant: Oh 

[00:50:21] Caroline: my gosh. We made it. Okay. Here we go. What is this for both of you? What is the last [00:50:30] random thing that made you smile? 

[00:50:32] Jesse: Sex and the city. 

[00:50:33] Caroline: You don't need to say anything more, but please do if you 

[00:50:36] Jesse: would. Oh, I'm binge watching the show and I just finished season [00:50:40] three and I'm, I'm hooked. And just like that was a major miss compared to the original.

[00:50:46] Jesse: I had to go back to the source material to find out and I'm glad I did. [00:50:50] 

[00:50:50] Caroline: Candido, the last random thing that made you smile. 

[00:50:52] Candido: Well, I'm looking at my mom and as my mom, she's making tamales right now. I love that I still have her with me and I get to eat her [00:51:00] food. And a slight thing for everybody I think is that this business is so tough and challenging, and sometimes you just feel like throwing in the towel or just quitting.

[00:51:09] Candido: I think [00:51:10] it's important to remember what makes us happy, even outside of this business or in this business. I think it's really important to just take a breath or read a book. And another thing [00:51:20] too, actually, because one of your students actually really taught me this as well, because they asked a question to me that was really like, Oh, I've never been asked before.

[00:51:27] Candido: Is it, doesn't it get tiring? Cause also [00:51:30] a non binary performer, doesn't it get tiring? How do you handle the mental exhaustion? How do you handle that? And isn't it frustrating to not convince the whole world? It feels like the world doesn't [00:51:40] listen, and I'm like, it doesn't, first of all, first and foremost, it's not the world that we're, yes, yes, we're trying to change the world, but when I'm in a room, for example, I'm not here to change that room, but if one person [00:51:50] changes their perspective on who we are, that's a whole world that you're affected.

[00:51:54] Candido: And so, that brings a smile to my face, knowing that sometimes just that one person that changes it, that brings a smile to [00:52:00] my 

[00:52:00] Caroline: face. Love that. 

[00:52:01] Grant: Well, that sort of shuts down the lightning round. I'm like, well, we leave it there, that's gold. Whoo! Okay. 

[00:52:07] Caroline: How do you follow that up? Well, I'll tell you 

[00:52:09] Grant: how [00:52:10] we're gonna follow it up.

[00:52:10] Grant: Do it! If you could compete in the Olympics, What sport would you compete in? 

[00:52:15] Jesse: What is it when they, they rub the ice and they push the ice balls across [00:52:20] the court? Curling. Curling. Curling. I'd be terrible at it, but that's what I'd try to do. 

[00:52:28] Candido: It would have been karate or [00:52:30] taekwondo for me. I'm actually a second degree black belt, and I was training because that was my dream growing up in school, but because of an injury that I had, I had to step out and I wasn't able to [00:52:40] continue, but I was in my, in my heart of hearts.

[00:52:42] Candido: It's like, I still practice. I still do my thing. Um, yeah. 

[00:52:45] Grant: I love it, Caroline. You want to bring us home? 

[00:52:47] Caroline: Bring us home with one more. Sure. Let's talk [00:52:50] about music. What's the first concert you ever went to or the first music you ever bought? 

[00:52:54] Jesse: First concert I ever went to was BLI Summer Jam on Long [00:53:00] Island. I think I was 11.

[00:53:00] Jesse: It was 106. 1 BLI and I only wanted to go because Avril Lavigne was headlining. But my parents made us leave before Afro Levine came out [00:53:10] and we like had to like run back in and like watch her up at the top 

[00:53:13] Candido: of where we exited. Well, my first concert was Los Angeles Azules with my parents. So I love cumbia and [00:53:20] my Latino music and that stays with me forever.

[00:53:23] Candido: The weird one, the first CD I ever bought was a soundtrack to Titanic by James Horner. [00:53:30] And, and like 20, 30 CDs later, I owe James Horner and Hans Zimmer and Thomas Newman. And it was like a discovery of how much I [00:53:40] love cinema. And storytelling, because I would put on my CD player, and I would start to write, and I would envision the boat sinking, and I would envision the wars, and I would envision Troy, I would [00:53:50] envision Louis and Lestat in New Orleans, I would, it was my escape, music, soundtracks, and to this day, I would fall asleep listening to Dune, by Hans Zimmer, it's just, [00:54:00] it's what I, That's how I escape them, so yeah.

[00:54:02] Caroline: Oh gosh, that's beautiful. 

[00:54:04] Grant: Y'all, this is, yeah. I want to thank you both so much. 

[00:54:08] Caroline: Truly, truly. It's just, [00:54:10] just having this candid conversation and a truthful conversation. And, you know, you reach hearts and minds that way, so thank you. 

[00:54:17] Candido: Thanks for having us. Thank you for [00:54:20] having us. 

[00:54:20] Caroline: Intention is the word of the day.

[00:54:23] Caroline: Candido and Jesse's focus on how casting actors with intention can ease any emotional burdens on [00:54:30] trans and non binary actors is important for all of us to consider. By reducing the need for artists to educate production teams or constantly advocate for their [00:54:40] characters authenticity, they can focus on their craft without carrying the weight of representing an entire community.

[00:54:47] Caroline: Oh, and by the way, Jesse She's available for your [00:54:50] next Cool Girl Raw. 

[00:54:51] Grant: I love that. It's always so great to catch up with Jessie. I thought it was really fantastic when they emphasized the need for more training and development opportunities for [00:55:00] trans and non binary actors, especially those from diverse backgrounds.

[00:55:03] Grant: Programs like Mentorship could really help underrepresented talent gain experience, hone their skills, and access high level [00:55:10] roles. Just imagine the new talent that could emerge if those kinds of programs started to pop up. 

[00:55:14] Caroline: You can follow Jessie on Instagram at jessiejameskeitel. And [00:55:20] Candido on Instagram, at KissedByLoki.

[00:55:23] Grant: And if you're curious to know more about what Jessie's up to, she's playing the title role in the off Broadway show, The Christine Jorgensen Show. [00:55:30] You'll also be able to catch her in the upcoming Amazon thriller, Obsession. And in the films, The Designer and Riding Shotgun. For which Candido coincidentally was the casting director.[00:55:40] 

[00:55:40] Caroline: And just in, Candido has been nominated for a 2025 Ardios Award for best casting of Disney Plus launch pad, The [00:55:50] Roof, about a two spirit teenager. Links are in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening to in the pod light. If these conversations resonate with you, follow [00:56:00] on SANDS talks or wherever you get your podcast, visit our website at in the pod, light.

[00:56:05] Caroline: com until next time, step into your light. 

[00:56:09] Grant: Since [00:56:10] 1906, Pace university has been transforming the lives of its students with bachelor's master and doctoral degree programs. With campuses in New York City and Westchester County. For more information, visit [00:56:20] pace. edu. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed by the guest, host, and producers of this podcast do not necessarily reflect those of Pace [00:56:30] University.