Gays Reading

Nicci Cloke (Her Many Faces) feat. Tess Sharpe, Guest Gay Reader

• Jason Blitman, Nicci Cloke, Tess Sharpe • Season 4 • Episode 46

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Host Jason Blitman welcomes author Nicci Cloke to discuss her latest novel and US debut, Her Many Faces. They explore the inspiration behind the book's innovative structure, Nicci's transition from UK to American publishing, and her unexpected background working as an elf. Later, Jason sits down with Guest Gay Reader, author Tess Sharpe (No Body No Crime), discussing her love of 80s action films, the art of crafting rural crime fiction with humor, and what makes her storytelling unique. No Body No Crime is August's pick for the Gays Reading Book Club!

Nicci Cloke is the author of eight novels, including two under the pseudonym Phoebe Locke. Her books have been published in twelve languages. She lives in the Cambridgeshire countryside after a decade spent in London, and previously worked as a nanny, a cocktail waitress and a Christmas Elf to support her writing. Before being published, she worked as a permissions manager, looking after literary estates including those of Sylvia Plath, Ted Hughes and T. S. Eliot, and was also communications manager at the Faber Academy.

Tess Sharpe was born in a mountain cabin to a punk-rocker mother and grew up in rural California. She lives deep in the backwoods with a pack of dogs and a group of formerly feral forest cats. She is the award-winning author of many books for kids, teenagers, and adults, including Barbed Wire Heart and the New York Times bestseller The Girls I’ve Been.

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Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen. Comes we are spoiler free. Reading from Stars to book club picks. The curious minds can get their picks. So you say you're not gay. Well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays rating. Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and on today's episode I have Nikki Cloke talking to me about her new book, her Many Faces, and my guest, gay reader is author Tess Sharpe, who shares what she's been reading and also talks about her new book, No Body No Crime, which I am so stoked to announce is the August Gays Reading Book Club Pick through Allstora. Both authors bios are in the show notes, and if you have not heard about the Altoa Book Club, you can learn more about it in the show notes and in the link tree on the Instagram, but. Uh, this current month's book is Disappoint Me by Nicola Dine, and again, next month is nobody, no Crime by Test Sharp when you sign up, you also get a membership to Stora, which means you can get books at wholesale prices about 30% off. You can join the group chats online that are all a part of the club, and we talk about the books. And Stora donates a kid's book to an LGBTQIA plus youth. All really fantastic things and not to mention, of course, you get a book delivered to your door once a month and even that is at a great discount. So super awesome and I hope you go ahead and check that out. Link in the show notes and in the Instagram bio. We are at Gaze Reading on Instagram. You can like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and if you have it in you to leave a five star review. It is certainly greatly appreciated. So thank you in advance for all of that. I am grateful that you are here and now. Please enjoy my conversations with Nikki and Tess.

Jason Blitman:

I am so happy to have you. I'm so happy to see you. Welcome to Gay's Reading.

Nicci Cloke:

Thank you. Thanks for inviting me.

Jason Blitman:

Are you kidding? Of course. Um, Here, of course, to talk about your book, her Many Faces this is your US debut,

Nicci Cloke:

Yes.

Jason Blitman:

but your eighth book,

Nicci Cloke:

My eighth book overall. Yeah. But I don't, but the count first two, I don't really count. They were like flukes. I think,

Jason Blitman:

what does that mean?

Nicci Cloke:

I feel like I was published in the UK when I was about 23, the first book. So it feels very separate to me. Like I'm, I feel proud of it in the way you'd feel proud of something like a younger cousin did. It feels very like not something that I did. And they're so different, those first ones that I feel in some ways I wish that I hadn't been published there and I think I was still learning a lot and working out what I wanted to write. And yeah, I might have been nicer to debut with something later on. Obviously I'm grateful for the experience, but yeah, it's,

Jason Blitman:

So it's almost, do you feel like it's a good thing that the, obviously you've published a lot of books but that this is what's rolling out your US world universe. I'm so fascinated by this whole thing you'd be proud of a younger cousin doing, is it because of how young you were? You you were saying you wish you'd been more experienced.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah, I think so. And I think, I was trying to explain this the other day to my friend because I've, we've just reverted the rights to the first book because it's been out of print for a while. And so I've t so I own them again. The publisher who got them, doesn't own them. But I was trying to explain to a friend and I said, imagine if all your Facebook statuses from like 2003 were public now. Like you would just, it's embarra not embarrassing, but just, yeah, sometimes you move on, don't you, from things that you thought

Jason Blitman:

That's interesting. That's an interesting comparison though. The thing about a Facebook status is that it was personal,

Nicci Cloke:

yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

Versus a novel. I think someone could say, oh, they were a little under baked. As a creative person I'm sure it's still great though now that you have the

Nicci Cloke:

You'll never know. Yeah, you'll never know. So

Jason Blitman:

Now that you have the rights again, you wouldn't wanna retool it with the experience you have now. No. You're like no. This is dead. Bury it. Let it be gone forever and forever. Okay.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah,

Jason Blitman:

So then this would be your seventh book if we're not counting the first

Nicci Cloke:

The second one wasn't great either, but Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

Oh my God, you're so funny. How are things different though, do you think, between, maybe not those first books because you talked about being so young, but perhaps ones that you were more proud of versus now that you're coming out in the States.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. So books three, four, and five were young adult books. Which was so fun to write. I had a great time in that period of my career, like doing a lot of events with teenagers and they were ya thrillers I think the first one was like me trying to write like a Ya Gong girl. Like it was that kind of like domestic thriller, but for teens. Yeah. So that was, they were really fun books. And then a couple before this were written under a pseudonym, so I had a pseudonym for a while where I wrote also kind of crime novels, but the first one had like a sort of supernatural edge. So like you weren't sure if it was supernatural or not, so it was based on man and the murders that happened around the Slender Man legend, but like a, invented urban legend in the uk and

Jason Blitman:

cool. How, where did the crime novel genre start for you?

Nicci Cloke:

I think that's what I've always liked to read.

Jason Blitman:

Oh.

Nicci Cloke:

remember when I was, I don't know, probably about 11, reading a book called The Tulip Touch by Anne Fine, which is way ahead of its time. I think it was published in the nineties, but it's a really great kind of domestic suspense about this girl who moved to a hotel with her parents.'cause they're like hotel managers. And she meets this other girl who is this strange, sinister, very misunderstood young girl who plays these really dark games, like with animals or with customers in the hotel. And you find out it's actually, it's a really powerful piece of writing about kind of nature versus nurture and the effects of childhood trauma. But it's also a really great thriller and like a page turner. And I think I've always, ever since that wanted that in a book. Like something that will make me not wanna put it down, stay up late reading. And that is what the feeling that I want to have when I'm writing as well. I want to, I want to be desperate to find out what's gonna happen to these characters that I'm fully in control of. So crime is the perfect thing indulge that,

Jason Blitman:

I'll make them, I'll make them commit crimes.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. Or be on trial what's gonna happen in this trial, is the perfect engine for me to

Jason Blitman:

yeah.

Nicci Cloke:

and tension and suspense.

Jason Blitman:

I don't think I realized how much I liked a trial story. And then, which is funny because I think back to my youth and loved To Kill a Mockingbird, which I think is cliche, certainly as an American, but it's at at its core is this like trial story.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. Like a really amazing legal thriller as well as everything else. Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

Do you dip into other genres personally in terms of what you read?

Nicci Cloke:

Yes. Yeah. I love anything contemporary. I was saying to you before I love Claire Lombardo. Like I just read that on a flight and so that kind of modern family saga, like I have a soft spot for that kind of thing.

Jason Blitman:

You were the first person to tell me about the names.

Nicci Cloke:

oh yeah. Have you read it?

Jason Blitman:

No, it's sitting on my shelf.

Nicci Cloke:

Read it. It's so great. Yeah, anything actually that the names as well as being like really great contemporary, I love anything with an interesting structure. So they're kinda sliding doors of the names, like how you follow three different timelines really does it for me. Yeah. Anything like that is. Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. Speaking of interesting structure, her many faces has a very interesting structure.

Nicci Cloke:

Thank you.

Jason Blitman:

Not only that, but it also is such a page turner that I found myself getting towards the end of the book, and I was like, I have not taken nearly as many notes as I normally do because I just. Haven't stopped reading,

Nicci Cloke:

that's so great.

Jason Blitman:

which is like a blessing and a curse.'cause I was like, uhoh, that's not good, but not good for me. Great for you. Because that means that it was so compelling that I couldn't put it down. For the listeners, what is your elevator pitch for her many faces?

Nicci Cloke:

Okay. How many faces is the story of Katie who is a waitress on trial for poisoning? For very powerful, influential customers at the private members club in London where she works. But it's told from the perspectives of the five men who think they know her best. So her dad, her childhood best friend her lover, or her ex actually her lawyer and a journalist who's investigating the case. And they all have a very different idea about who she is and whether or not she could have committed the crime.

Jason Blitman:

We segued by you talking about interesting structures. How did you land on that structure for this book?

Nicci Cloke:

I think I, for ages, have wanted to write a book around names, not like the names, but I like started thinking a while ago about nicknames that I've had in my life. So like my dad calls me tricky, which is, it's ironic because I'm the people pleaser of the family. Like even as a child, like the biggest people pleaser,

Jason Blitman:

Where did that come from?

Nicci Cloke:

I think he just finds it quite funny and it rhymes with Nikki and

Jason Blitman:

Nikki? Yeah. Yeah.

Nicci Cloke:

Just came from that so tricky. Like all my, I've got loads of good guy mates and they would all call me Cloy in this kind of like British lad kind of culture. I had an ex-boyfriend who used to call me flower because I wore floral dresses,

Jason Blitman:

hmm.

Nicci Cloke:

But he was the biggest misogynist, like terrible person. And that looking back, I can see that he wanted me to be a flower,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Nicci Cloke:

So I started thinking about that and thinking about nicknames that you have in your life and what they say about the people who give you nicknames and whether anyone can really know us wholly, whether you know that you're playing roles all the time in life, in work, this is the first time actually that, i'm using my own name again. So I had two books under my pseudonym, and so that feels like a different self in a way, like professionally. So I knew I wanted to do a thriller based on that kind of, yeah different senses of self and the people in our lives. And then it just very quickly became a crime novel, yeah,

Jason Blitman:

Do crime novel. It just very quickly became a crime novel in that was not what you originally set out to do, or the idea was like, oh, this is a concept is so interesting. What would I do with that? And

Nicci Cloke:

I think, yeah, I was open to it at first, like open to, with all of my books, there tends to be like two or three things coming together that suddenly that's oh, that's the novel. So there'll be like one thing that's like a structure or. Reading a news story or something and it will have to sit in the background for a while until I find the other ingredient that's gonna make an actual story. And I think with how many faces it was slightly to do with conspiracy theories I guess.'cause there is that,

Jason Blitman:

Slightly, what do you

Nicci Cloke:

There's that element of the novel, but I think, so this thing happened to me just after lockdown, like during lockdown. I got a treadmill like many people in the UK did when we were all stuck in our houses.

Jason Blitman:

everywhere

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. And I used it a lot because I loved to run. So by the end of lockdown it was not working anymore. So my dad recommended this like engineer person who would come and fix it. And this guy turned up really friendly. Nice. We went out to my garage where I was keeping the treadmill and just chatting about, I dunno, like life and. Exercise machines and like

Jason Blitman:

as you do.

Nicci Cloke:

as you do, especially when you haven't seen strangers for a

Jason Blitman:

I know. Seriously. You're like, how do I do this again?

Nicci Cloke:

And halfway through him fixing it and with all his like, I dunno, like a spanner or wrench in his hand, he just segued what we were talking about the expense of fixing it versus buying a different treadmill. And he just segued immediately into, oh there's these three companies that control the world. And I was a bit like wrong footed. And he said, oh,'cause they fake nine 11 and that's how it started. And they're like, they're faking the war in Ukraine right now. And I was So just, is this actually happening?

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Nicci Cloke:

And then it just oh, it got even worse. And he was talking about COVID being fake, and then he asked me if I was vaccinated, which I am, or was, and that, yeah, he didn't like that. And I was just suddenly very aware of being in this quite small space with somebody who was very angry.

Jason Blitman:

At what? How far into the repair was he?

Nicci Cloke:

not far enough.

Jason Blitman:

Oh, no.

Nicci Cloke:

So I just thinking like, how am I gonna get out of this? And it was fine. Like he actually couldn't fix it. So he left and I paid him. And then as he left, he was telling me just all these tips for like, how to live off the grid. Like how, if I ever have children, I shouldn't I shouldn't register their birth because then the state can't take them away from me. And if I ever get arrested, I shouldn't give my name. I can't. There was some logic behind that. It was just this very. Intense parallel world that I'd suddenly been like shoved into and off he went. And like he turned out the whole time he'd been there, he had this friend sitting in the car outside because he refused to drive because he didn't want to have any driving license or anything that gave the state power over him or access to him. So he, he off, he went in this chauffeur that he had hired to drive him around is so bizarre. But this, it was interesting to me after I'd calmed down a bit from the, like scared feeling because I'd noticed it was happening more and more frequently. There was like a friend of my family who had told me like fairly close to that time that Joe Biden was someone wearing a mask and this was a normal, rational person. That, and the

Jason Blitman:

So you

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. Had at one time been a rational person and then like friends on Facebook, not friends, but school mates on Facebook, just posting more and more of this kind of alternative news conspiracy theories and things. And I just, it was interesting to me how deeply someone can be sucked under by that and how angry this man, it's actually, it wasn't even anger when I think about it. It was fear. He was very afraid. This man although he was quite aggressive to me, he was trying to warn me about this thing that he thought. And I thought if he had murdered somebody, how would that pan out? Like how would that work in a trial? And are we equipped to deal with that kind of radicalization? And I guess in the novel it's, I. It's a sub ploy, isn't it? It doesn't it's one of the many things that could have been the reason that Katie has committed or not committed this crime,

Jason Blitman:

It's so funny in a book like this, I don't wanna say there isn't a subplot because obviously there are, but there because of how the story is told, it's almost like a story told of subplots. It's a story of subplots. Yeah,

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. It's five different versions of her story.'cause they're also Sure. And like this, the conspiracy angle is mostly the journalist because he's so adamant that he's figured out why she would've done this. Who

Jason Blitman:

And the ex-boyfriend or the friend. Yeah.

Nicci Cloke:

The friend. Yeah. Who's also but the others, like her ex has a completely different reason why he thinks she would've done it. And he's got no idea. He's never heard her speak of conspiracy theories. He doesn't believe that's anything to do with her personality.

Jason Blitman:

right.

Nicci Cloke:

So yeah, it was one aspect of many that kind of came together and,

Jason Blitman:

What was that? Like a research experience, like for you, I imagine you fell down some rabbit holes,

Nicci Cloke:

Some huge rabbit holes constantly.

Jason Blitman:

right? Once a creature larger than a rabbit, you fell down that hole.

Nicci Cloke:

like a badger hole. Yeah. Do you know the, actually the hardest thing was the court stuff, the trial stuff. It's, I think I, as many people watch lots of legal shows, documentaries or thrillers. So I thought I knew a lot about the UK legal system, but actually it's really complicated. Really complicated. So I ended up there's a really great barrister, so a lawyer a barrister, specifically a lawyer who stands up in court and does that part of the trial who also. Advisors, like TV companies and authors,

Jason Blitman:

Oh, funny.

Nicci Cloke:

on how to get their plots right. So she was so helpful, but she read quite a late draft and the way I had the trial ending, she was that wouldn't happen. You'll need to do this or this to work for the judge to come to that conclusion.

Jason Blitman:

Uhhuh.

Nicci Cloke:

So super helpful, but very stressful.

Jason Blitman:

Oh, interesting. No, but back, going back for a second, what are some of these conspiracy theory rabbit holes that you fell down? Because I, Ima you had to have done research on those.

Nicci Cloke:

Load. So I watched a lot about Q anon, which is so frightening. I love watching horror and this was way scarier than any horror film.

Jason Blitman:

Was there anything that you were like, I've never heard this theory before, or was there anything where you were like, oh, I see where these people are coming from? That's what would scare me.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. The problem is they're all so convinced that anything, you be like, oh yeah, I can see that. No.

Jason Blitman:

I guess when someone tells you something with such conviction, you can't help but think, huh? Maybe there is a tiny glimmer of truth,

Nicci Cloke:

yeah. There's always that,

Jason Blitman:

because

Nicci Cloke:

there's that tiny voice in your head that's what if we are the idiots?

Jason Blitman:

I know.

Nicci Cloke:

these falls? Watching the news and trusting the news. Yeah, I came across some really interesting ones. I read this really great book, which I now can't remember the name of, so that's really bad. But it's a book about conspiracy theories that came out in the UK a couple of years ago, and it's the history of them. And so they gonna go through some really interesting ones, including one where there was a very prevalent one that said John that Paul McCartney had died in the 1960s and that the Beatles had replaced him with somebody else. And I think there are still people today who think that is true.

Jason Blitman:

Uhhuh.

Nicci Cloke:

Fascinating. But,

Jason Blitman:

you familiar with the American comedian, Andy Kaufman?

Nicci Cloke:

no.

Jason Blitman:

He was on the TV show Taxi and he was very popular in, I guess the eighties. And he, his style of comedy was so specific and macab and he I took a class on comedy in college the philosophy of comedy, which was fascinating,

Nicci Cloke:

that does sound fascinating.

Jason Blitman:

and there would be things like, he would get a whole group of people, bring them on a, put them on a bus. Drive two blocks and then take them off the bus to go into the other side of the building. And like there it was things like that, that were just such extreme versions of life that were hilarious because you're like, is this really happening? Or he was the kind of comedian that would like literally stand up on a stage and not say a single word for an hour. And just interesting to hear people laugh and not laugh and then laugh and boo, right? Like it's that human experience. And at some point very early on in, the current president's I think initial run for office where someone was like, this has to just be an Andy Kaufman back from the grave in a suit because this is, it's the kind of comedy that Andy Kaufman would. Try to pull over and every once in a while I'm like, this is just Andy Kaufman. I'm waiting for him to come out and say, just kidding everyone. And take a bow. Look at what I pulled off and what I pulled over on everybody because that is his style. Anyway, that's sort of,

Nicci Cloke:

rational explanation as

Jason Blitman:

That,

Nicci Cloke:

everything.

Jason Blitman:

right? I'm like, that's the only way that it makes sense to me. This like conspiracy that Andy Kaufman is still alive and that is him. Anyway, that's, I felt, just fell down my own rabbit hole. But that is that's what it makes me think of.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. Yeah. That was such a good one.

Jason Blitman:

Going backwards to format. I'm curious to hear the different versions of you that would be in the book if you were the protagonist.

Nicci Cloke:

Oh, yeah. I guess the, yeah, so the people pleaser thing I said earlier about when I was a kid, that, that yeah. Has shaped a lot of my life, I think, and that is something that Katie in the book definitely doesn't have. None of her, the versions of her are particularly people pleasing or considerate in that way. I dunno, I don't know if you feel this, but I just feel like I've got to the stage now where I'm much calmer and much more certain of myself and I think there, there was a version of me when I was a teenager. I wanted to be a lawyer so that, that could have been and that, that version of me was very serious, very yeah, very academic.

Jason Blitman:

That and the crime novel thing makes total sense.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. Yeah it does. Then kind of a party girl in my twenties, I guess. which I imagine like Katie, we don't really get to see her. She's 23 when the novel ends, but I imagine she probably goes on to a, become a bit of a

Jason Blitman:

Have some fun.

Nicci Cloke:

Bit wild. She probably deserves it after everything that happens in the book.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. I don't know. How about you?

Jason Blitman:

I wonder if it's an impossible question to answer and that's why the book is structured the way that it's,

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah.'cause you need someone else to tell

Jason Blitman:

Like I, I bet if I thought, okay, what would my mom think? What would my husband think? What would my best friend think? What would a coworker think? And I, if I were to think about me through their eyes, I could maybe answer that,

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. Yeah, that's really true actually. Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

But I like, don't, my initial instinct is that I see myself more holistically.

Nicci Cloke:

Yes. Yeah, totally.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Nicci Cloke:

And I think the fun thing about writing the book is I first started out by thinking what they all thought of her because that was the origin of the idea. And in a lot of ways it's something they project onto her more than what, they're very biased in the way that we all are unconsciously biased in that they ex, her dad expects her to be this innocent, like charming, lovely. Well raised person because that's what he wants her to be. And it's very important to him. They've had a very difficult time as a family, and he's invested all of this feeling into her and into making sure she's okay. So he projects a lot or I guess he chooses to see certain sides of her and ignores other sides. So as I was writing, having already set that in my head what they would all think of about her, I actually started to learn more about them. And that was the really fun part of writing it, is that they're just, they're showing you themselves really, and they're presenting these versions of her, but what they're really presenting is who they are and how they feel about what happened and the need they all have to atone for or justify things that they did in the runup to the murders and the trial and how they've behaved since. And so that was a like. A process of discovery for me, and that's one of the best things when you're writing a novel and you are still discovering all of this information and yeah, it just evolved.

Jason Blitman:

And similarly for me, it made me think about how, like what pieces of ourselves we share with different people and how no one sort of has that full view of who we are. And in turn it's like easy to make assumptions about a person because you're only, you only have that one perspective.

Nicci Cloke:

yeah.

Jason Blitman:

And that is terrifying

Nicci Cloke:

yeah.

Jason Blitman:

Because through the lens of each of these men, they're for all intents and purposes, right.

Nicci Cloke:

yeah. Yeah. None of them. None. None of them event the things they've seen or heard, but they interpret them like to fit what they've already, or, yeah.

Jason Blitman:

Because they don't see the rest of it, so they can only interpret it within the information that they have.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah,

Jason Blitman:

And that was an interesting, I think, thought exercise for me of just what am I putting into the world and how can I make sure to inform different sides of myself?

Nicci Cloke:

yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

Who would your let's five men be?

Nicci Cloke:

Oh, who to talk about me? I think my brother maybe because we weren't always close growing up. We used to argue a lot'cause we're quite close in age. There's two years between us. But we are very close now. We're like, I would say he's probably one of my best friends and we lived together for a while. Like in our early thirties we shared a flat. So I think he's seen me at lots of different periods in my life. And I guess that kind of dual relationship of like older sister, but then like close friend, we've had a differing relationship as we've become to adults. So yeah. Him, hopefully I wouldn't need a lawyer. So in this story,

Jason Blitman:

No, but if there was a story of Nikki Cloaks life, who would the five people have perspectives on you be? And so it doesn't have to be a murder trial.

Nicci Cloke:

No. Yeah. So yeah, I think probably, I dunno if you can have your brother and your dad, because I dunno if that's too, but then it's quite

Jason Blitman:

No. There are different

Nicci Cloke:

on Yeah. On like family life and growing up. So probably my dad as well, because we are close, we're really close. But I think he would be like John, like I think he would only see the good in everything I do. So I think he'd, it'd be quite a biased.

Jason Blitman:

That's fair.

Nicci Cloke:

yeah. Who else? Who else? It's interesting'cause professionally I've only worked with women in publishing. It's so heavily female. And I think want an insight into that side.'Cause you're such, such a different person at work to who you are in your personal life

Jason Blitman:

Sure.

Nicci Cloke:

that I would, I wish that I could say like an editor or an agent, but they've all been women,

Jason Blitman:

That's very cool though.

Nicci Cloke:

yeah. Yeah. That has been cool actually. I've had, I've worked with some really amazing people. Yeah if I could turn one of them into a man for the purpose of

Jason Blitman:

That's fair. Yeah, that's fair. That answer.

Nicci Cloke:

yeah, I would definitely, my current partner Chris, I think because like I was saying earlier, I just feel like I've reached like a different stage in my life now. I feel really comfortable professionally and like personally. And I think he's been a big part of that, but also is the only person that has that full insight into that. So him. I need a fifth one, don't I? I would like to say I had a really great English teacher when I was at school, in senior school, so from 11 to 16. And he was the nicest man who really nurtured me wanting to write stories and. A friend and I like wrote this like lame horror script when we were at 14. And he took us and loads of other people to go and film it because he really wanted to encourage that kind of talent. And not that it was talent, but he wanted to encourage that enthusiasm.

Jason Blitman:

right?

Nicci Cloke:

The enthusiasm, which is the important part. Like he wanted to give us that. And yeah, that was a really like formative part of my life. I think those teenage years, like that's why I'm so interested in this book and some of my previous ones in starting with a character in their kind of mid to late teens because I just think it's whatever happens to you. It's such a strange and yeah, formative time. So I would, I think maybe him,

Jason Blitman:

that's a great answer. I didn't even think about, people from my youth, but of course I have teachers and other professors and people

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. And actually that teacher, I, he, after I was published, he invited me back to speak to his current students.

Jason Blitman:

I

Nicci Cloke:

So I did know him as an adult as well, so I think yeah, he would be a

Jason Blitman:

That's very sweet. Yeah, that's a really, it's a hard thing to, to answer and to think about. One of the first things we talked about in our whole conversation was about your nicknames and how that sort of led into, this as an idea, and nicknames have come up so much recently. In so many conversations that I've had, particularly there's one, this episode comes out, or the episode that I'm gonna refer to comes out this coming Thursday with the, with crime writer essay Cosby.

Nicci Cloke:

Oh, wow. Cool.

Jason Blitman:

And I've never really been a crime person. So between that and this, I've, it's like really filling my cup. It's been, I'm like, oh, maybe I am a

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

reader. But of course he goes by his initials. And then we also talked about how, in his youth, your nicknames would come from sort of behaviors or things that someone would do and then it would like stick. And so he talked about how his friends would call him books because he always had books in his bag.

Nicci Cloke:

That's so cute.

Jason Blitman:

isn't that cute? But so I was just thinking a lot, I've been thinking so much about where nicknames come from and how that informs you, but also someone's perception of you.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. And would he have gone on to do the amazing things he had if he hadn't then been given the identity? Like it's so interesting.

Jason Blitman:

And with, in my interview that is out today, I have a whole conversation about Franklin because Franklin is never anything other than Franklin.

Nicci Cloke:

Really.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. I'll call him Fray, but that's not, that's because he won't let me call him anything else. Can't call him Frank. He doesn't like Frankie. He doesn't like Frankie, he doesn't like he is Franklin. That is, the full name. So it, the way that names shape and inform not only identity, but perspective that someone has of you. Like a good friend of mine who I went to college with, to me, she's Jill and to everyone else professionally. Now she's Jillian.

Nicci Cloke:

Okay. Yeah,

Jason Blitman:

And so that, there's just a, there's a friendliness, there's a youthfulness to Jill.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. My parents would actually never call me Nikki, so my real name is Nicola.

Jason Blitman:

oh,

Nicci Cloke:

yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

I don't know why. I assume Nicole have very American of me.

Nicci Cloke:

yeah I like Nicole. Maybe that

Jason Blitman:

Nicola is great though,

Nicci Cloke:

Nicola's very eighties in the uk. That's probably I dunno, a three or four in my class at school is a very of the moment name that's now out of fashion. But they would, if they were calling me, something affectionate other than tricky, they would call me Nick. They would ne Nicki just doesn't come naturally to them at all. So it's interesting that I took that on and now use it professionally as well. But yeah,

Jason Blitman:

that is very, why do you think that is?

Nicci Cloke:

I liked it when I was young, like when I was, I think I was about 11 when I decided to that I wanted that to be my nickname. And I guess it's quite hard when, a child or something else to suddenly start calling them this, yeah. That, yeah, it just stuck. So I I that it's, yeah. A name that I've chosen for myself,

Jason Blitman:

yeah. I love that. I a lot of people call me Jay but if I were to choose a shortened version of my name, I prefer Jace.

Nicci Cloke:

Okay.

Jason Blitman:

And there are only very few people that call me Jace. Lots of people call me Jay. Few people call me jb. So it is interesting and I know who calls me all of those things interesting in and of itself.

Nicci Cloke:

yeah. And I guess because you have a relationship with each of those people, name takes on meaning in a way.'Cause it's, it like symbolizes to you that friendship or that, that relationship they become the same thing. It's, yeah.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. Very yeah, anytime I hear Jason, it's like almost jarring.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

Not a lot of people call me my full name. Okay. Earlier on I said that I didn't take a lot of notes as I was reading, which is a bad thing for me, but a good thing for you because that meant that I couldn't put the book down. So what I, but what I did do as I like looked back is I underlined so many questions that get asked in the context of the book, so I'm gonna throw some of them at you.

Nicci Cloke:

Okay.

Jason Blitman:

If you were a type of cereal, what would you be?

Nicci Cloke:

Oh God, probably granola, which sounds really boring, but granola's not boring. It's not boring.

Jason Blitman:

know what? It's better than the answer in the book.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. I feel sorry for him for the answer he gives, it's hard. He's wanna impress her.

Jason Blitman:

So funny. Okay. Tell me why.

Nicci Cloke:

like it's good, it's wholesome, but there's all kinds of surprises in there. Like you can make whatever you want into, not whatever you want, but yeah.

Jason Blitman:

There's all sorts of say more. What do you mean? There's also sorts of surprises in there.

Nicci Cloke:

You can mix up the fruit or the nuts that go in there.

Jason Blitman:

Okay.

Nicci Cloke:

I'm sticking

Jason Blitman:

Different flavor profiles. Like a vanilla or a berry or, okay. Okay. Okay.

Nicci Cloke:

yeah. Which, what would you be,

Jason Blitman:

Oh man. It's interesting because what would I be versus what is my choice of cereal, I think are two different things.

Nicci Cloke:

Okay.

Jason Blitman:

I'm a very boring cereal eater.

Nicci Cloke:

Okay. Okay.

Jason Blitman:

I'm like, give me the fiber.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

cardboard in cereal is my, that's my go-to. What would I be, oh, interesting. I don't know. Something like a little sweet and a little surprising, but also hearty.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. Okay.

Jason Blitman:

I don't like a cereal that, like what the things we ate as children. Cinnamon toast Crunch. What were my parents thinking? That is,

Nicci Cloke:

yeah.

Jason Blitman:

I,

Nicci Cloke:

that turn the milk to chocolate milk

Jason Blitman:

No, no, No. I wanna be something like substantive.

Nicci Cloke:

What you're describing is granola. I'm just gonna put that

Jason Blitman:

Or oatmeal with granola

Nicci Cloke:

Oh, yeah. Oat oatmeal is really warming and,

Jason Blitman:

Yes. And not dissimilar from oatmeal, or not dissimilar from granola. You can make it your own. Okay. I'll be oatmeal and you could be granola. We're a good team. Okay. Would you rather be able to control time or fly?

Nicci Cloke:

The reason this is in there, this is a secret is that Chris and I have had this argument before. So he thinks that the best superpower to have would be time stop where like you can stop time and everyone stops and you can do whatever you need to do and then start the world again. Whereas I always said I wanted to teleport and he thinks teleport in this day and age of Zoom and thinks it's redundant. You don't need to teleport. He was like, why would you need to teleport? Give me an example. And I was like, I don't know if I need to get to New York for a meeting or something. And he's you use Zoom. You don't need to teleport for that. Time stop is useful. But I stick by, I mean it's not flying, I guess

Jason Blitman:

I do.

Nicci Cloke:

fun.

Jason Blitman:

Flying would be fun, right? Flying is wait, you still didn't actually answer the question?

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

Are you worried about committing?'cause then Crystal will give you a hard time.

Nicci Cloke:

No, because I teleportation, I would definitely say.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. No, but the question that you ask in the book is Control time or fly.

Nicci Cloke:

and I don't, the problem with flying is, although it's probably quite convenient for getting places, people will see you It will get you a lot of attention. That might not be fun. So maybe in that, this instance, I would say control time.

Jason Blitman:

Or is flying. Like an alternative to teleporting. Like you could fly from home to New York for a meeting.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. If I'm like supersonic speed, then

Jason Blitman:

That's, there was no, you didn't say slowly,

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. Just flying like a bird. Like

Jason Blitman:

right?

Nicci Cloke:

yeah,

Jason Blitman:

That would take you a while. Okay. Fly like Superman.

Nicci Cloke:

yeah, I'm gonna go there. I think that is more useful.

Jason Blitman:

Interesting. Okay.

Nicci Cloke:

do you think?

Jason Blitman:

I would be curious to hear Chris's version of, or like what time controlling means to him

Nicci Cloke:

So he would say that say he needs to get to a meeting, not in New York necessarily, but he would say that he'd stop time, steal a car and drive. But you still have to do the drive

Jason Blitman:

Or stop time. Do procrastinate. Then go so he doesn't, if he's running late, whatever. Okay,

Nicci Cloke:

He's think how many books you, you could just press stop and then read a whole book. Write a whole book, and then start the world again. But it's very lonely if you're doing that.

Jason Blitman:

that's true. But I do see the value in that because like I have an interview later this week and I'm not done with the book. I could use another day or two, or at least a couple hours. People do say there aren't enough hours in the day, or I wish I had a little bit more time. So I see the argument.

Nicci Cloke:

Okay. It is fine. You can be team time. I

Jason Blitman:

Wait, if you could control time, does that mean you could go backwards or is it just a matter of stopping

Nicci Cloke:

I think,

Jason Blitman:

you didn't know you were gonna talk about for 10 minutes today?

Nicci Cloke:

really specific boundaries on this, but yeah, I would say control time, you can go back in time.

Jason Blitman:

Okay, in that case, I think I would maybe want to do the time

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. But if you start going back in time and messing things up, then there's a whole like

Jason Blitman:

Yeah, the butterfly effect. No. But maybe go back in time to maybe to like re-experience something or to double check something to fact check.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. Yeah, just be like an observer but not get involved in

Jason Blitman:

like Scrooge.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. Okay.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Nicci Cloke:

The Steve, I can't remember what it's called now, the Stephen King novel where he goes back in time,

Jason Blitman:

I've never read any Stephen King.

Nicci Cloke:

if you ever do, I would recommend this.'cause it's, this isn't a scary one. It's this guy discovers a kind of portal that goes back to, I wanna say it's 1960 or 61, and he tries to think what he could do in that time. So he ends up waiting for a couple of years to try and stop JFK being shot because he decides that is a really significant time in history and it's really great. It's a really great book. It was made into a good TV series with, I wanna say James Franco was the lead, but Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

this does sound familiar,

Nicci Cloke:

yeah. It's a really good Stephen King one'cause it's not a scary one

Jason Blitman:

but you don't remember what it's

Nicci Cloke:

a thriller.

Jason Blitman:

You don't remember what it's called?

Nicci Cloke:

I think it might be called 11 22 63.

Jason Blitman:

Oh, hold on. Yeah, let's, yes, that is what it's called.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. Okay,

Jason Blitman:

Good job.

Nicci Cloke:

thanks.

Jason Blitman:

What, how do I want to, what is the order in what I wanna ask you these questions. What is your worst fear

Nicci Cloke:

Um,

Jason Blitman:

question in the book.

Nicci Cloke:

yeah, my, I guess my kind of big answer would be losing people that I love. I like have a lot of anxiety about that. Certainly when I was younger I had a lot of kind of intrusive thoughts about that kind of thing. But like an easier answer. I'm really claustrophobic. Very g claustrophobic. So anything that's like small spaces. I saw a video on Instagram the other day that was a diver stuck under like an ice shelf not being able to get out. And so things like that, or people exploring caves, there's like slot canyons or yeah, anything like that really makes me feel like very stressed. So yeah.

Jason Blitman:

I didn't really know how. Badly. I felt about that until I went to Notre Dame,

Nicci Cloke:

Okay.

Jason Blitman:

and this was before the fire, so you could still go up to the top. And we were walking up these spiral staircases and you're, I don't know if you've ever done it or if you've ever been, they're so compact and you have a person directly in front of you and a person directly behind you, just like filing up the stairs. And I had no idea how long this was. I was like just walking and walking to nowhere and it was, I was having a panic attack. However, I got to the top and it was absolutely incredible and stunning. And I'm so glad I did it. And I think had I known, oh, this is gonna be, it's gonna be a 10 minute journey, but it's gonna be fine. There will be stops and starts. But you got this. I think I might have been okay. But in the moment I didn't know those things and it was terrible.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah, that sounds so, it is just that once you start to realize if you want to get out,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. Yep. No, there was zero. There was no like, oh, excuse me. I need to get past you. There was nowhere to go.

Nicci Cloke:

Oh God.

Jason Blitman:

So that was terrible. But beautiful. Highly recommend it, but know that going in, take a Xanax before you do. My last question that gets asked in the book that I will ask you is, what's the best thing that ever happened to you?

Nicci Cloke:

Oh my God, there's it's hard, isn't it, because there are loads of different small, great things, but how do you decide the defining thing that ever happened? The best thing that's ever

Jason Blitman:

You did this to your character,

Nicci Cloke:

I know.

Jason Blitman:

though. It's in, it is interesting. Back to the conversation about perspective, like the different people that are having their different perspectives. Who asks the question might change your answer.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. I don't know. I want to say I could say being published was like one of the like best things that ever happened to me, but it seems so small in compared to so many other lovely things that have happened and.

Jason Blitman:

It is also interesting that that's professional.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah, but it, I think with writing, it always feels like more, it feels like it's my identity.

Jason Blitman:

Do you feel like that means work is your identity or no?

Nicci Cloke:

no, I think the writing itself is the best thing. Like the, my favorite thing is having an idea and sitting with that idea and not having yet committed it to the page. And the joy of creating and imagining is, it reminds me of being little and making up stories. And I think I feel very lucky that my work takes me back to that state because I've done a, a million other jobs before and during being published, including being like a Christmas elf, a waitress, like Katie's in the book. All kinds of like strange and wonderful I looked to as a child minder for a while. And so those were all great jobs. Actually being a Christmas self is not a great job if anybody is ever considering it,

Jason Blitman:

Where were you with Christmas

Nicci Cloke:

have care. I was a Christmas self at the local garden center where I grew up. I don't, do you have garden centers in the us? Do you call'em something else?

Jason Blitman:

Garden center, like where you buy plants and things. So we have we have hardware stores that have a garden center department and it's, it will be called the Garden Center. So yes. But you were at Christmas Health at a garden center.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah. So in this context, like in a small village it is just a garden center, but it has, it tend to, if we have these, they tend to have like home sections where you get like beautiful cushions and patio furniture and there's usually a cafe because British people love to eat cake wherever they go and have tea. And so there's a cafe, and this is a really big one. And so at Christmas in its carpark, it has a ice rink for skating. And they also put in a Santas grotto because that will make loads of money from all the surrounding like towns coming to see Santa. And this was, I think after my second book had come out, but I had left, I'd moved back from London because I was like, between jobs at the books. I was getting paid a pittance for them. They weren't like selling loads of copies or anything. So I moved home for a while to think about my next move, which I think felt quite scary, like going backwards, having set off and set up the city life, and then coming back home, I guess with my tail between my legs a bit, like sheepish about this false start and needing to start again. But anyway, my mom had seen an advert in the paper for they need staff for the grotto. What a lovely, jolly way to cheer you up in this difficult time in your life. So I went and interviewed and I did get a job, which would, was good because I think my self-esteem could not have taken it at that point had I not got the job at the grotto. But it was not jolly. It was very long hours. The system they'd introduced that year was that you had to book a time to come and see Santa. You couldn't just turn up, which was a difference to previous years, which meant that I as the, actually, so part I was the QL for a while and I moved to be the toy shop elf, which was a nice job'cause you could hide in the toy shop, but the QL had to spend their day turning away

Jason Blitman:

People who didn't make

Nicci Cloke:

who wanted to see Santa being the actual antithesis of Christmas, like sending crying children on their way because Santa was fully booked for the, like next

Jason Blitman:

Oh my God.

Nicci Cloke:

yeah, someone also got vomited on the, yeah, one of the other Elfs. Not me, thankfully. But yeah.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. So that

Nicci Cloke:

So

Jason Blitman:

okay.

Nicci Cloke:

that was not the best thing that ever happened to me, that

Jason Blitman:

no. But I, I unpacking, getting published as the best thing that ever happened to you, I think makes sense.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah, I don't think that is my true answer. That is definitely one of the like key events of my life, and I feel very lucky about it.

Jason Blitman:

I, there is something to be said about, if we change the phrasing of it and say you got you. Your passion was validated

Nicci Cloke:

yeah. It put me on this path and I, and although it has been like a winding path at times, before this book, I actually had five years where I didn't write I it's been five five years between the two books being published, and during that time I had this massive crisis of confidence where I'd just. Started and abandoned 12 separate novels. So I had this really long dark stretch where I just thought, I might never do this again. I think I've lost My confidence so much that I'm not gonna be able to write another book. But luckily how many

Jason Blitman:

we are.

Nicci Cloke:

it did eventually come. So yeah, it hasn't been like a straightforward path, but it is one that keeps me great joy and satisfaction and I don't know, contentment, I guess when it's going which isn't all the time, but,

Jason Blitman:

sure. And it, and to some degree, the creative element is something you can control right? Whether or not it gets published is not in your control, but the idea that these ideas come to you, that you have something in you that makes you put them on the page,

Nicci Cloke:

yeah. Yeah. And you get to connect. I've met some really great friends through this career. That's how I met Chris. And so it has shaped my life hugely and connected with some really wonderful readers and people who are like, just so kind. And it's a real privilege to do that as a job. And yeah, so I definitely, that is the one of the most significant things that's ever happened to me.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. I love that. That's a great answer.

Nicci Cloke:

Do you know yours?

Jason Blitman:

answer. Oh geez. It's hard I think to think about one thing.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

However, the first thing that comes to mind is when I was three years old, my mom took me to see Peter Pan,

Nicci Cloke:

Oh

Jason Blitman:

and I think it was, and that really set. Me on a path and made me who I am today. And I

Nicci Cloke:

So lovely.

Jason Blitman:

it was so in turn, I think I would have to say something like that was the best thing that ever happened to me.

Nicci Cloke:

That's so beautiful.

Jason Blitman:

yeah, I think, but it also sounds lame.

Nicci Cloke:

No, it doesn't sound late. That's a really nice one. Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

I appreciate that.

Nicci Cloke:

Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

Nikki Cloak, I am so happy to have you. Thank you so

Nicci Cloke:

so fun.

Jason Blitman:

being here.

Nicci Cloke:

Thank you for having me.

Jason Blitman:

Her many Faces by Nikki Cloak is out now. Wherever you get your books, so go get it, experience it, and enjoy it and not be able to put it down just like me.

Nicci Cloke:

Thank you.

Jason Blitman:

wait, where did, here we go. I wanted to make sure I had your book next to me.

Tess Sharpe:

you're so sweet. I love that cover so much.

Jason Blitman:

This cover is out of control, the amount of books that you're gonna sell because of this cover alone.

Tess Sharpe:

Oh, you're so sweet. I was, I had a vision. I, like, I either have no vision whatsoever for the cover or I have a really specific vision I sent in lesbian Pope novels from the 1950s as examples, and then also a bunch of foreign, um, romancing the stone covers and like the Indiana Jones movie posters from the 1980s because I really wanted that kind of luck.

Jason Blitman:

Yes. Okay.

Tess Sharpe:

I got

Jason Blitman:

get into that. Yeah. Uh, it's, it is so good. Even my husband was like, I wanna read that book just because of the

Tess Sharpe:

That's so sweet. I, yeah, I am. I am so delighted with it,

Jason Blitman:

W We will talk about it in a second, but Tess Sharp, welcome to Gay's Reading. Thank you for being my guest gay reader today.

Tess Sharpe:

and thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk about what I'm reading.

Jason Blitman:

Tell me, what are you reading now? I have to know,

Tess Sharpe:

I am doing a reread summer, partly because I have like six projects that I'm working on in various, Categories right now. Like I'm drafting something, I'm outlining something. I have a ghost write that I'm doing in like six weeks. Um, I am rewriting two novels. Um, and so I was like, I'm gonna focus on books that I love, that I really want to revisit. and it's been so nice because I am not drafting ya right now. And I really try to stay away from reading ya while I'm drafting it because I find that the voice bleed is the biggest there. And so I finally have like di gotten to dive back into some of my YA favorites. I'm reading rereading, um, it goes like this by Meel Morland, which is a book about a, it's a ya book about a queer band that broke up. And the two girls involved in the band also broke up, and it's about the aftermath of it. It's a book that really reminds me of how far we've come in Queer. Ya. You know, it's the kind of book that I would've loved to read as a teenager when really all we had were like coming out narratives and it's one of those books that when I was a teenager it wouldn't be published and now it's just part of this beautiful pantheon of queer ya that is just so delightful. I'm 38, so when I was a teenager we were just starting with Queer Ya. And it was really, um, a lot of coming out narratives, and so it really just, in the span of my career, I've been publishing since 2000. My first book, my first career, ya came out in 2014. I sold it in 2012. So I was 24. And that was really the beginning, just in that tra just in that 12 year time period, you know, it's just exploded in such a beautiful way. Partly because, um, 2015 I think is when, um, Simon vs the homo sapiens agenda came out. Becky Albert Albert's book. And that really was the one I would say that taught the industry that queer ya could be commercial and a good investor. Um, and so we've really taken off since then. But like I remember when I, my debut was 2014, the year before Simon, and it was the, it was the first queer book that my publisher, which was Hyperion at the time, had published in like seven years.

Jason Blitman:

Wow.

Tess Sharpe:

It was one of the only SIC books. Of that year and now it's so amazing to be like one of many,

Jason Blitman:

Uh.

Tess Sharpe:

you know, it's It's so beautiful to see, especially, you know, with ya, your readership cycles in and out about every eight years. It's the challenge of it, you know, you have to keep up with them. Um, and they will tell you that they hate something to your face. That's what I love about them. Teenagers are bullshit detectors. And so it's really been beautiful to see the subcategory basically evolve with the kids. It's been really beneficial. It's been really wonderful. And then I'm also reading Gay The Pray Away by Natalie Nadi. I had the, um, lovely opportunity to read it when it was released as an indie book, and then it got snatched up by trade. But I love this book because it doesn't, Natalie is drawn, it's a really personal book for Natalie. You can tell Natalie is also an amazing narrator. If you, if we, if the listeners do not know though, I'm sure that you probably do. If you've read, you've, you're, uh, you're in the know of any Sapp books. She is queen of, um, the SIC romance audio space. But it's just so well done. It's so touching. It's so much about the power of fiction, the power of love, and breaking free from these cult-like dynamics that are so harmful. And I really identify with it even though I did not grow up inside religion. I grew up alongside it. Um, and so it really, I think is one of those really important books. And one of those books that in a way is going to act as a key to breaking free of a cage. That is what is so what happens in the book for our main character. And so I feel like that. Double message is so beautiful and its double purpose is so beautiful because it's going to save lives in the way that books saved the character's life and broke her free and so powerful.

Jason Blitman:

you. Earlier we're talking about when you started publishing and or when you were a teen, a lot of the stories were coming out stories, and that was sort of, that was, those were the, the queer stories that we were getting and we're around the same age. And I feel, I hear this, I feel this very deeply and something that I'm obsessed with about nobody, no crime is, it is not, the queerness is not the, essence of the story. It's just a part of the story.

Tess Sharpe:

Yes, and it's so interesting because I toiled in the Query minds for seven years because of that. All of my books are like that. I grew up in a really unusual situation for someone my age. Our age, you know, when our age, often when we were growing up, we didn't know any queer people. We didn't have any queer portrayals. You know, that's kind of our generation. I did not grow up like that. I grew up in a space where the most successful relationships that I was surrounded by were queer ones. My mom. My mom is, you know, friends with so many artists. And so I had my gun uncle who are like her gay artist friends, and I lived with them in San Francisco as a teenager. I was, um, you know, my, my cousin Ryan, who is a writer as well, Ryan O'Connell wonderful writer, wonderful novelist. You have a short story collection coming out

Jason Blitman:

Ryan O'Connell is your cousin.

Tess Sharpe:

Yes. But Ryan

Jason Blitman:

how funny.

Tess Sharpe:

from a very gay family, and it's kind of true, you know.

Jason Blitman:

my God.

Tess Sharpe:

I know he's the best. Both of my grandmother's youngest grandchildren became novelists and screenwriters. It's so funny. Uh, she would've loved it. She would've loved to see both of us on the shelves. Um, she unfortunately passed away before she could do that. So I like to think that she is somewhat as an atheist. I don't really think that she's anywhere, you know, but I like to think that she knew somehow, uh, but no,

Jason Blitman:

right,

Tess Sharpe:

I love him so much. And just, I'm so excited for his short story collection.'cause I love him in short form just as much as I love him in novel form. But he's so funny, like he got all of my grandmother's dark humor. He's just so wonderful. But he said, he says, you know, jokingly that we come from a very gay family. And it's kind of true. You know, like the straight people are a little bit outlier. And so I grew up in this atmosphere where queerness was really, really normalized.

Jason Blitman:

That's amazing.

Tess Sharpe:

that like queerness equals successful relationships in a lot of ways, because all of the really long term relationships that I was surrounded by were queer ones, you know, my uncles have been together for, but both sets of uncles have been together for like. 20 plus years, you know?

Jason Blitman:

I think putting that contextually for normalizing queerness is a great place to now hear about no, no crime. What is your elevator pitch for no body, no crime.

Tess Sharpe:

So nobody, no crime is about a rural PI who finds herself on the trail of the one who got away with her heart and with murder. So it's about two women who meet each other. While killing a boy at a sweet 16 party because he is not a very nice person. And during the process of murdering him and burying him in the woods at 16, they fall in love. And then one of them disappears at 18 with no word, and the book takes place six years later in their mid twenties when the one who has been left behind, who is now a rural pi, is tasked by the love interest Chloe's family to track her down. And she finds out that the secrets and that the boy they buried, they didn't bury them deep enough. It's my owe to,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Tess Sharpe:

Cohen brothers, the early Cohen brothers, raising Arizona Fargo and also, you know, the action romantic action thrillers of the eighties, specifically romancing the stone. Very influenced by that as well. And I heard someone say that it's Tess Sharp at her most indulgent, and I was like, that's very true.

Jason Blitman:

But what's part of why I loved it so much is because the stakes are real. And yet I know that Tess is winking at us the whole time. I.

Tess Sharpe:

It is, it was a book that really came out of the necessity of the Mother is the necessity of invention. I was supposed to write another book during the time but I was writing a TV pitch for my first. Adult novel barbed wire heart at the, at that during that summer. And I was worried about voice bleed with the other novel I was supposed to write'cause it was more in tune with barbed wire heart. And so I asked myself, what can I write during this period of time?'cause I have to write a book proposal that. Is not gonna give me voice bleed that I'm not gonna, you know, have any crossover with. And the answer ended up being what if I poke fun at everything that I normally take really seriously? And I'm someone who's like really insecure about my ability to be. Funny. Partly because it's like I'm related to Ryan, like I'm related to a genuinely funny person, like genuinely funny. I have really, really funny people in my family and I'm really aware of the limits of my humor, you know? And so I was like, can I go this darkly funny? Is the audience going to like it? It's such an outlier in my catalog, you know, and I don't think I'm ever going to, you know, write another one like it. But it was really like, of the moment, it was just like one of those things where everything came together. I had the time to do it. I genuinely didn't think it was gonna sell. I thought it was a little too out there. And so I was really surprised when it sounded like I gave it to my agent. And he is like, I don't understand the peacocks because he's a city guy. And the peacocks didn't exist in the proposal. They only existed in the pitch. So he is like, are you trying to be camp? You know, and I had to like explain to him that like in rural areas, feral birds get loose. Well, regular, well domesticated birds get loose, they turn feral, they breed, and then they like attack neighborhoods. And it's so funny because whenever I talk about the peacocks, somebody from a rural area has a bird story for me. And then a city person is like, what are you talking about? And so like I was like, I gave it to Jim, my agent, and I was like, look, it's weird. I don't think it's gonna sell. But I really liked writing it. Let's just take it out if you like it and we'll see. And it didn't, it was out for like five months and I was like, I totally wrote it off. Because that's just for my peace of mind, you know? I'm just like, okay, it's not gonna sell. My silly book is not gonna sell. And then it did, and then I was like, oh my gosh, I have to finish it.

Jason Blitman:

Well, and not only did it, but like M-C-D-F-S-G is

Tess Sharpe:

it's such a lovely

Jason Blitman:

It seems funny for their catalog too in such a fun

Tess Sharpe:

yeah, it really, it does, it fits into the kind of weirdness of the, of the, of the boutique imprint. And it's been really interesting. I've always been really part of a big machine. You know, I've been part of larger imprints, you know, lots of people. And this is really, you know, Sean, McDonald's baby, and he's such an interesting guy. Such an interesting guy. Editor so enthusiastic really wonderful. The team is just lovely. I got to work with the wonderful Brianna Fairman before she moved over to Putnam. So she edited this with me and highly recommend her to any, um, query writers on sub. She, I think she's acquiring now over at Putnam, and I had so much fun with her. She has such a beautiful hold on structure, which is the thing I am pickiest about. All of my editors will tell you this. And she just, I just had so much fun working with her and so much fun, really pairing it down and making as propulsive as possible.

Jason Blitman:

when you were talking about the cover, talked about all of the different references that you sent, including Indiana Jones, which I'm embarrassed to admit. I just saw Raiders of the Lost Arc for the very first time,

Tess Sharpe:

Oh my gosh.

Jason Blitman:

in movie theaters. And it was, and I had the best time I.

Tess Sharpe:

Yes. I really wanted the cover to really evoke that. Eighties action, thriller sense. You know, I try, I like, I went to my artist friends and I was like, I sent them a bunch of movie posters and I was like, what is this art style? Because I was like, I don't know, I'm ignorant. And, um, I think that it was my friend Margaret Owen, who was like, this is like, kind of what I would call romantic realism, you know, and that kind of glossiness, that kind of burnt, um, orange kind of color. And just, I had such a wonderful experience with Zoe who did the cover for me and just. Dream cover. When I saw it, I just gasped like it was everything that I wanted and I really like.

Jason Blitman:

Well, and what's so fun about it is that it, having just seen Indiana Jones, what was incredible about that movie is it is also in, on its own. Not joke, but it also doesn't take itself overly seriously. The stakes are real. The stakes are high, and yet it's playful and can, and you can laugh at some of the things that are happening. And so immediately for me, that set the tone for this book, I was like, I know that I have permission to laugh. And so I was just sucked in from jump and I'm obsessed.

Tess Sharpe:

It is. I love to lean into the silliness and campiness of gold rush country and rural crime because truly sometimes it can be so absurd sometimes. Like, I think that we're really used to, and I, and I'm guilty of this too, of really smart, competent criminals. And so, and that's not always the case, and so to write about like incompetent criminals was really, really fun. You know, I love the bag of dicks. I love them so much. They're so crazy, and they're just absolutely wild. But they're also, you know, they're based on either archetypes or actual politicians from NorCal. That's all I will say without getting into too.

Jason Blitman:

Yes. This is gonna get me canceled. Maybe you're gonna hang up the call as soon as I say this, but I had not heard the Taylor Swift song until five minutes before getting on this call.

Tess Sharpe:

It is actually. Okay. This is hilarious though, because the person who named the book also for did not know it was a, um. Taylor Swift title. So I originally called it I had a really generic working title. It was just called In The Pines, and I was just like, this is so generic. I like covers, I get titles right, like every eight books. Um, like I, I nail it like every eight books. And the rest of the time I go to my writer's friend, writer, friends, and I'm like, here's the pitch. Throw some titles at me.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Tess Sharpe:

My friend Cindy, who is a wonderful thriller writer, um, perfect little Monsters, is her debut. We were all throwing out na, you know, throwing out things and Cindy suggested No Body, no Crime, and everyone was like, oh my God, Taylor Swift. That's so funny. And Cindy was like, wait, that's a Taylor Swift song. So, and I kind of love that and I was like, I mean, we could forgive her because like Taytay has so many songs at this point. Her catalog is enormous. We can't keep track, you know, she's so prolific. But I thought it was so funny because I love Taylor's specifically Taylor's storytelling songs of which nobody, no Crime is a really classic one. I love the country genre of. Songs that are about women killing men. It is such a subcategory, a sub genre in the country music scene, and so it was delightful to kind of do a little ode to that.

Jason Blitman:

Like a such a what a great, happy accident. And I was like in the fantasy musical version, it's like Chapel Rone is doing the score in my imagination.

Tess Sharpe:

That would be amazing. It is actually just it. My film agent just took it out, so we'll see what happens.

Jason Blitman:

Fingers crossed.

Tess Sharpe:

Fingers crossed, always.

Jason Blitman:

This has been so fun. Thank you for being my guest gay reader today.

Tess Sharpe:

you. This was so much fun. I had so much fun. I apologize for the horrible internet as usual. It's a clear ass day, but you never know out here.

Jason Blitman:

No, that's okay. I'm obsessed. I wanna like come hang out in the mountains. That's amazing.

Tess Sharpe:

I, I have a lovely guest room,

Jason Blitman:

Congratulations on the book. I

Tess Sharpe:

Thank.

Jason Blitman:

I loved it so much and I think the people really need a end of summer blockbuster book to read.'cause that's exactly what this is. It's fun, it's cheeky, it's self-aware and it's that like little action thriller that you need to end your summer.

Tess Sharpe:

Oh, you're so sweet. That's exactly what I aimed for, so I'm happy to hear that I accomplished my goal.

Jason Blitman:

Yes. Goal accomplished. Done and done. Tess, so nice to meet you and I look forward to chatting soon.

Tess Sharpe:

Likewise. Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you Nikki and Tess. Her many Faces is out now. Wherever you get your books, as is nobody, no crime. But make sure to join us for the August Book Club through Stora. I will see you next week. Have a great rest of your day. Bye.

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