Gays Reading

Angela Flournoy (The Wilderness) feat. Rickey Laurentiis, Guest Gay Reader

• Jason Blitman, Angela Flournoy, Rickey Laurentiis • Season 5 • Episode 6

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Host Jason Blitman talks to 2025 Kirkus and National Book Award longlisted author Angela Flournoy about her newest book, THE WILDERNESS. 

Highlights include:
🪣 Angela's bucket list   
🗓️ the 10 year journey of writing this book
🎃 The Candy Corn Community
🤫 secret family recipes 
🍽️ "group of 7" dinner party guests

Jason is then joined by Guest Gay Reader™️ Rickey Laurentiis, who was ALSO just longlisted for the National Book Award for her book, DEATH OF THE FIRST IDEA. Make sure to stick around to hear Rickey read one of her poems. 

Angela Flournoy is the author of The Turner House, which was a finalist for the National Book Award, a finalist for the Center for Fiction First Novel Prize, a Barnes & Noble Discover Great New Writers selection, an Indie Next pick, and a New York Times Notable Book of the Year. Her fiction has appeared in The Paris Review, and she has written for The New York Times, The New Yorker, Los Angeles Times, and elsewhere. A graduate of the Iowa Writers’ Workshop, Flournoy has taught at the University of Iowa, Princeton University, and UCLA. She lives in New York.

Rickey Laurentiis is the author of Boy with Thorn, which won the Cave Canem Poetry Prize and the Levis Reading Prize. Laurentiis is the recipient of fellowships from the Center for African American Poetry and Poetics (CAAPP), the National Endowment for the Arts, and the Poetry Foundation, among others. Her poems have appeared in The New Republic, BOMB, and poets.org. A 2018 Whiting Award winner, she lives in New Orleans.

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Gays reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen. Comes we're spoiler free Reading from politic stars to book club picks where the curious minds can get their picks. So you say you're not gay. Well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays Reading. Hello, and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and on today's episode I have the lovely Angela Flournoy talking to me about her book The Wilderness, and Rickey Laurentiisis is our guest gay reader today, and she also talks about her book. Death of the first idea, which is a new book of poetry. It is such a funny and wonderful coincidence that it just so happens that both of these authors, Angela and Ricky are, they were just long listed for the National Book Award. Angela for fiction, and Ricky for poetry. Congratulations to both of them. Both of their bios are in the show notes, and both of their books are also out now. So super, super excited for each of them. And what a weird coincidence for this episode. Uh, thank you all so much for being here, as always. If you like what you're hearing, please share us with your friends. Follow us on social media. We are at gays reading on Instagram, and if you are so inclined to leave a five star review, that is super helpful for the algorithm and for those who might be looking for a book podcast to enjoy. The October book Club Pick has been announced with Altoa. It is Middle Spoon by Alejandro Varela, and I recently had a conversation with Alejandro that you could listen to. It is spoiler free, so you could check it out before you, uh, read the book and you could learn more about the book club through Altoa. Again, link in the show notes. You can also watch these episodes over on YouTube. We have a Substack, we have merch. All the things you can check out on the Gays reading Instagram, uh, in the link in the bio, or of course in the show notes. All of that said, thank you again for being here, and please enjoy my conversations with Angela Flournoy and Rickey Laurentiis.

Jason Blitman:

​Angela Flournoy. Welcome to Gay's Reading

Angela Flournoy:

Thank you so much for having me. Very excited to be here.

Jason Blitman:

here to talk about the wilderness.

Angela Flournoy:

Oh my God. Do I need to have a copy of the book? Like I. Then I'm gonna have to run away again. Okay. Now, okay, we're

Jason Blitman:

You remember what it's about, right? So then you're good.

Angela Flournoy:

Just making sure I'm not reading or anything.

Jason Blitman:

Oh God, no. No. I don't wanna hear from you. This is, I read it already.

Angela Flournoy:

true. No one

Jason Blitman:

Yes. Congrats on being shortlisted for the Kirk Prize.

Angela Flournoy:

Thank you.

Jason Blitman:

Incredible. I like wanna get into. Some of this like journey that you've been on, which I know that everyone is gonna want to talk to you about, so we won't linger. But before we do, what is your elevator pitch for the wilderness?

Angela Flournoy:

My elevator pitch.

Jason Blitman:

And that this ride can be as long or as short as you

Angela Flournoy:

Okay. So this book is a novel that follows a group of four close friends over 20 years from their early twenties into their forties millennial friends. And I really think about it as a true coming of age. So a lot of times people focus on, coming from becoming like a young adult from adolescence, but to me. That is literally child's play com compared to what it feels like to mature into middle age where there are just a million paths, you can take a lot of complications that are not necessarily things you anticipate, and it is about that group of women who live in New York and LA experiencing those 20 years of their life while also,

Jason Blitman:

Oh, Uhhuh.

Angela Flournoy:

Sorry, you said you know the

Jason Blitman:

Yeah, it could be as long as you want it to be. Here we go. Someone just got off, so now we're continuing to go.

Angela Flournoy:

you. While also, and this is like we're going all the way to like floor 34 now,

Jason Blitman:

Yes.

Angela Flournoy:

it was while also experiencing the last 20 years of American life, all of that.

Jason Blitman:

You just touched on so many pieces of, obviously this is what your book is about. So many pieces of things that I do want to talk to you about, but a quote in the book is an essential aspect of growing up is how we remain connected to others as we move into middle age. Have you figured that out? Was this book. An exploration of that. Were you trying to figure that out?

Angela Flournoy:

I've been trying to figure that out since I started writing the book when I was only 30. And now I'm 10 years older than that, but I just, I've always been, I love an intergenerational friendship, so I've always had older friends. And I really admired the way that some of them really seemed to be able to hold like both their biological families and their chosen families close. And I felt like those people seemed to have the most robust, like middle age and even like into their senior year's lives versus the people who seems to not be able to do that. The people who, went all in on family and now their lives are very small or weren't even able to do to hold any, they're just out here alone. Maybe just with like their spouse and their kids, and nobody else. And the difference in just how they felt about the world around them and how happy they seem to be. And so it was something that I wanted to explore is how do you do it? And I think also having a lot of older, friends that are queer, I realized that they figured out something that a lot of heterosexual people had not figured out, and the only real group that I saw in my life that were of heterosexual people who had figured it out were black women. Like they had figured out something that it seemed like other people of the straight world had not figured out, which is we can't just put all of our eggs in this nuclear family basket. We can't even put it just in the biological family basket like. Half of the people I grew up growing calling aunties were just my mother's friends, like her dear friend and older, queer people in my life. They also communicated to me a kind of oh no, we're like family. This is for real in a way that I felt like a lot of heterosexual people were just loosey goosey about their friendships.

Jason Blitman:

Reading it, it is so not queer coded. That's not even the right way to say it, but it was so relatable to me as a gay person. This group of black women friends, right? Like it and it really showcased this interesting crossover in these relationships. As I've gotten older, I have found myself with more gay friends. Which is I think, part of exactly what we're talking about. So many of my straight friends have kids now or are like on their journey doing whatever they're doing and

Angela Flournoy:

their house.

Jason Blitman:

We engaged rid of in our house too.

Angela Flournoy:

know, but it doesn't and it's like it can be your personality without meaning you don't have a social life, like

Jason Blitman:

We still have.

Angela Flournoy:

HDTV about it,

Jason Blitman:

Exactly. Exactly. Though it's hilarious because I'd say as I'm getting older, I have more gay friends. I went bowling yesterday with a group of gay friends. Yes. Yesterday. And I'm realizing how much older I'm getting, because today I'm very sore just from bowling. And I was like, okay, we need to find a new activity.

Angela Flournoy:

You used to be sore from being in the club, it was just like your thighs versus like your back from

Jason Blitman:

fair. Your feet hurting right from right. Dancing all night long. Oh my God. So funny. Okay, you talked about how you feel differently or how you've been trying to learn this in the last 10 years of writing the book. I think a huge part of this book coming out for you is gonna be people talking to you about it being 10 years since your last book has come out. Like I was saying earlier, I don't really wanna linger, but I'm curious what does it feel like now, having gone through the process before and now to say, okay, I've taken this time. What's, what is it like this time?

Angela Flournoy:

This time around, I think that there's. So much has changed. There's the inside baseball of the way that the book world has changed and also I think the way that people, my awareness of readers has changed because there wasn't like book talk or Bookstagram, you didn't really get a sense of the reader as a consumer really. You met them once they came to. Talk and stuff, but now the whole time you're writing a book, if you happen to take a gander over there, you see the way that they talk about books. And it is not necessarily the way that you want people to talk about books when you're a writer, but it's interesting information and that's one thing that's changed, but I'll say that over 10 years when you take this long to write another book, you go through all sorts of cycles about like your beliefs of what will happen when the book comes out. And in some ways. You end up feeling like a debut again I have no idea what's gonna happen. You can't really take anything for granted because it's been so long.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. Is it validating for this Kirk thing to happen even before pub

Angela Flournoy:

You know?

Jason Blitman:

like, Okay, we good.

Angela Flournoy:

We got something right, little feather in the cap to get this thing. You wanna be able to have a, her second book, comma, and you put something there, right? Something happens with that book. So at least this one thing has happened, so that does feel good.

Jason Blitman:

yeah. Is there anything that jumps out as something that you heard or learned from Book Talk or Bookstagram or whatever that was like, I don't know, triggering or something bad has stayed with you?

Angela Flournoy:

I mean there was some, there's certainly, I would say humbling. There's this way, especially I don't feel like I'm a product m the MFA system, but I did get an MFA that before I get an MFA. I don't think I talked about books being literary or not literary, but certainly after you get an MFA, you have a sense of that, and then when you get back, what I've learned in the world of like how readers talk about books is that so many readers are just omnivorous. Like they are reading, authors who put out four or five books a year, like these series that like have AI looking covers. And then they're also reading like, I don't know the personable Everett, like they're reading.

Jason Blitman:

right,

Angela Flournoy:

Whatever they feel like it, whatever people are excited about or tell them about. And there's a way that in your mind you think I have to be positioned just like this, or my reader won't find me. And it's like there's just readers, like there's a bunch of different kinds.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. You think about things like heart stopper. Which was self-published online and then became this fantastic graphic novel that people loved and now turned into the series. It's so who would've thought that this little sort of indie thing on the internet was gonna blow up in the way that it did? Yeah. That's a really interesting takeaway from the from the Bookstagram world.

Angela Flournoy:

Yeah. It doesn't mean that I need to become these other kinds of books, but when I think about. Where my book lives on people's bookshelves. It's just crazy to think it like lives next to, I don't know, like Faulkner or like even, Jennifer Egan. Who knows? You might just be living next to Tolkien and

Jason Blitman:

Next to Tolkien and next to their library printout of that thing they saw online that they loved. And you're smashed in the middle of that and that's very cool. Okay. There's a scene in the book, which is like. Not a throwaway, but you're gonna be like, oh, this is what we're talking about. Um, there's, There's a, a loud gentleman working in a coffee shop on a weekend,

Angela Flournoy:

Oh my God.

Jason Blitman:

and

Angela Flournoy:

Did you feel seen? Did you feel attacked?

Jason Blitman:

that is not what I'm bringing up. I feel attacked now. No. And he is this sentence that he says, I feel like, coming from the writer is a bit tropey on purpose, but he is saying on his call, storytelling really does have the power to save lives. And he's like a marketing exec executive telling like a client and he's being obnoxious about it. So maybe it's cliche, but it is true, and how, what does that mean to you? How have stories changed Life, have your life for you.

Angela Flournoy:

I will say that man was, yes. He was being cliche and he was thinking about yes, copy. He was thinking about not storytelling, but like marketing copy.

Jason Blitman:

Exactly. Yeah.

Angela Flournoy:

you can make us rich. That's how it'll change our lives. It's if we get this copyright, like it will change our lives. But I would say that, the old James Baldwin quote that still remains true, which is that, it was books that helped him realize he wasn't alone in the world. That there were, he wasn't the only one who would ever experienced the things that he was experiencing. And I'm paraphrasing, but that is, I think. The real power of books. I wish books would reliably change policy, et cetera. I'm not sure if that's true, but what it can, what they can do is, for all of us who are living amidst this world, is understand that other people have these experiences and that especially when you are young or when you just, your circumstances are such that you don't have a lot of interaction with people different from. That nuclear family or that, one church you go to or whatever, is this idea that there's this whole big, there's this big world and that there is a lot of connectivity like between us.

Jason Blitman:

And that is the sort of beauty and soul of the book,

Angela Flournoy:

Thank you.

Jason Blitman:

because he says with a big sigh, it's the book is sneaky In that. It's really this sort of slice of life, of a bigger picture a bigger piece of life, little slices of a big life. And it's just real and honest and what people do in their sort of daily lives. And it feels simple and there's something very profound in its simplicity. When you think about decades long friendships someone, there's a scene where one of the women asks the other one or not even asks, says to someone, I feel like we read this in AP English, and there's something so fascinating about the institutional knowledge of friends. And I was like, oh yeah, I have friends still that I went to elementary school and middle school with who I can who I have a sort of common language with, and they helped me remember my history.

Angela Flournoy:

Absolutely. I think there's, and there's also that other sneaky thing that happened because in that instance, she's that she was a much better student than her friend.

Jason Blitman:

Yes.

Angela Flournoy:

friend is I didn't take AP anything. I didn't read those books, but this way that the, when I think about it's like the accretion of experiences, right? So it's like one on top of another, on top of another. And I think that sometimes when people, like you go back home after you first go to college or something, and that friend from high school tries to hang out with you and it just doesn't feel like it's gonna work. Some of that has to do with you don't wanna be perceived as that person anymore. Like they. Have a knowledge of you that you're not interested in having, like having reflected back to you. It's nothing personal,

Jason Blitman:

and there are there, then there are the people who you might still get along with and like each other's pictures on Instagram, and then you connect. In real life and all you do is talk about the past and you're like, oh, that's really all we have. And some of the friends that I have, now who I've known for that long, it is this sort of beautiful marriage of things that we could talk about presently and that institutional knowledge of our past. But it's so funny because there are some of these friends where I'm like. You must have been in that class because we were all together, but oh, no, sorry girl.

Angela Flournoy:

You were just in regular

Jason Blitman:

I, for, I forgot. This you say in your acknowledgements that a lot of this was sparked by relationship that your late mother had with one of her best friends. Can you share a little bit about the seed of that for you?

Angela Flournoy:

Sure. So my mother's mother died when she was 10. And my mother. Meant like her parents were already divorced, but she moved to a different city to be raised by my grandfather and his, like his new wife. And so she went to a new middle school and she made just this friend named Alicia Williams, who is like a, she's just made to be like on television. She should, she actually was like on, what is that show called, I think a thousand Dollar Pyramid or something in the eighties.

Jason Blitman:

my God, that's so funny.

Angela Flournoy:

But she, they just remained very good friends like I was when I came home from the hospital, my mother was still living with my auntie Alicia so that's where I lived first. And my mother also has three sisters, but this is really like her fourth sister. And in many times in her life were, was like her closest sister. And so I was raised calling my auntie Alicia's child, like my cousin. I still call her my cousin. I call both of her children my cousin and I feel like, that constant in my life, like other people trying to tell me that's not your real aunt, though, really reinforced the way that I do believe that friends can be that important to your life. Because I was just like how do you know?

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. And it also, like you have to ask the question like, what makes family, I, and people who have been listening to this podcast are sick of me saying this, but I'm such a firm believer in the difference between family and relatives.

Angela Flournoy:

Okay.

Jason Blitman:

Relatives can be family, but family doesn't have to be relatives,

Angela Flournoy:

absolutely. And I think that is something that other, I think part of it, like the, one of those things when you talk about like the overlapping, I think particularly with black people and like black women and like in a lot of queer communities, that that is because of like necessity because who is going to support you? Who is gonna see you no matter what, like that is who is your family. It is not necessarily the people in your household, it is not necessarily whoever you discover is connected to you on ancestry.com. Like what? How is that person, they're a relative for sure.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Angela Flournoy:

But they're not your family.

Jason Blitman:

the book felt like. A cousin of Leila Motley's new book, the Girls Who Grew Big.

Angela Flournoy:

very excited to read that. I have not read it yet.

Jason Blitman:

it's great. But these books are, they're cousins. It's almost like a sliding doors who these women could be in the future or in the past or whatever. Yeah, and it's very good, but it's just really special sort of reading about these deep relationships. I. We have to talk about your audiobook in relation to all of this. Can you share who your audiobook narrators are, how this came to be, who they are to you? It's incredible.

Angela Flournoy:

Sure. My audio book is read by two actors. Asian, Naomi King and Ashley Nicole Black. They make me want to go by my middle name as well, but it's too late. And

Jason Blitman:

is it?

Angela Flournoy:

not, only TSA knows,

Jason Blitman:

and who knows for how long?

Angela Flournoy:

right. But yeah, so they, Asia, it's been in a lot of television. She was nominated for an Emmy for her role in lessons in chemistry. She was also in How To Get Away With Murder. And Ashley is also a writer. She's been in a bunch of amazing rooms, including Ted Lasso and currently in Shrinking. And she also was a part of the ensemble cast for a black lady sketch show. And we all went to, we. It's really crazy because we've like been in each other's lives and like rooting from each other, sometimes very close up, sometimes afar because that's how life is. But we actually all only went to the same school for two years, just for middle school. They went to the same elementary and they also went to the same high school. But I grew up on the other side of the tracks. But we all fed

Jason Blitman:

I've read that book

Angela Flournoy:

But we all fed into the same junior high school. And it was a school. The thing about LA County is that when people think of the suburbs, they think of this I don't know, like John esque homogenous, like very like white space. But LA county suburbs are not like that. Most of, a lot of them are ethnos. So our school was very diverse in the sense that it was majority Latino, but also had a big Asian, Asian Pacific Islander community. And a whatever, a smaller south Asian community, but there weren't that many black people at the school. And so the three of us were often like the only three black girls doing a thing, like being in the, being on the dance squad, like being in cheerleading twirling those flags being in like theater Asia. And Ashley can sing. And Ashley comes from like a musical family and I cannot, but they sure did rope me into singing many a song, including, how did I get Roped into Sing? Whitney and Mariah, you know that song for the Prince of Egypt?

Jason Blitman:

Oh yes I do. Uhhuh,

Angela Flournoy:

No business singing it.

Jason Blitman:

if you believe.

Angela Flournoy:

I think a lot. I was just watermelon, cantal, loing in the back

Jason Blitman:

my god,

Angela Flournoy:

no word. Those sounds were coming out, but

Jason Blitman:

that Is that you? Former theater kid. Watermelon, cantaloupe. Yes.

Angela Flournoy:

they needed me for moral support, but it's a duet, so had it.

Jason Blitman:

it is. So you were good?

Angela Flournoy:

But so it, we didn't all go to the same colleges, but we just remained in each other's lives and just rooted for each other. And when I had an opportunity to think about the audio book, usually they give you like a few, like the editors, they find the finalists and then they send you the three different little snippets of people reading. And if you're lucky, you pick one that they like and they go with it. But I decided one thing about taking 10 years for a book is that you have a lot of dreams for the book. And so you're like, this is the cover. I just really need this cover. And this is, and I did that, I did a lot of those self-advocacy. And it was nice because they've done this, like Ash Asia has done audiobooks before. Ashley has done a lot of animation, like voiceover stuff. So it wasn't like, here are my friends from. Junior high school who like have no IMDB pages, but trust me.

Jason Blitman:

Who knows if they read?

Angela Flournoy:

yeah. So it worked out

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Angela Flournoy:

very special. Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

And not only is it humans that it is humans, that it is this crazy parallel to the book too. And that is, it's I listened and read simultaneously and it was, it brought me just like extra layers of joy

Angela Flournoy:

I have not listened because I was roped into reading a part of it, and that makes me not wanna listen to any of it,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. Yeah,

Angela Flournoy:

but I will.

Jason Blitman:

fair. I had to get used to that very quickly, starting a podcast. I was like, oh, I'm gonna be editing my voice. I'm gonna be, listening all the time. I hate it, but I'm gonna, I need to suck it up until with it,

Angela Flournoy:

Okay.

Jason Blitman:

I feel you. It, you'll move past. It's great. They're great. So it's worth listening to them for them.

Angela Flournoy:

you.

Jason Blitman:

I don't, this is not, this is like a spoiler in quotation mark, but it's not because it happens in like the first page, but the first chapter, it talks a lot about dying with dig, dignity and what that means. I was just talking to a friend about this because we both were observing, like grandparents getting older and here I am talking to you about bowling and being sore from bowling, let alone.

Angela Flournoy:

Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

40 years from now, what my body's gonna be doing. It's so irrelevant to ask how your feelings about it. But I'm, there is this again, I'm not giving anything away, but let's say what is on your bucket list?

Angela Flournoy:

Oh, in life. Like in life to do.

Jason Blitman:

Yes. Yes. Let's say you were like, you know what? The time is soon. Let me do these things before

Angela Flournoy:

Oh, okay. Like I

Jason Blitman:

traveling to Europe. I know I like skipped three questions, which the journey would've gotten there, but I want to, let's just get here for this. This will tell more

Angela Flournoy:

oh man. I feel it's really interesting because it's like when you have kids that changes. It's oh, I just, there's like all these things I need to communicate to this child. So if we, okay let's imagine that's not it, because I would just literally be making audio books, like would just be trying to impart information. But, okay.

Jason Blitman:

That's beautiful too. Okay let's get you a little recorder,

Angela Flournoy:

But if we're just thinking about like general bucket lists not the realities of my current life, but like just a general it's interesting because it's I find like deep meaning and purpose from writing, But I also just like to hang out, would I be

Jason Blitman:

things are in conflict with each other.

Angela Flournoy:

Yes. So it's would I want to just make sure I write like these next two books that I have in my head, or would I just be like I'm gonna get credit card with the biggest limit and just

Jason Blitman:

Yes.

Angela Flournoy:

they can't make anybody pay it when I'm gone. I'm just gonna ball out, and go to, I haven't been to. South Africa, which, where I would like to go. Like I've been to North Africa and I've been to East Africa and West Africa, but I've not been to South Africa. I have not been to South America. Yeah. So I would travel and then I would I don't know. I wouldn't,

Jason Blitman:

I feel like travel is a very common. Thing. It's like get out and see more of the world. I'd wanna travel, I'd wanna go to some really good restaurants.

Angela Flournoy:

Yes. Eat, drink, and be merry. I absolutely. I also feel like I would that's one of the nice things I think about getting older, is that some of the things like I would finally tell this person or that person the thing. I feel like either that feels less important to me or I already did tell them like I don't

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Angela Flournoy:

yeah.

Jason Blitman:

Getting older, I'm like, oh, I care less about certain things. Yeah.

Angela Flournoy:

I don't, and so I do think that there's I don't know, I need better like bucket list aspirations. I don't

Jason Blitman:

Going to South Africa is a great first item.

Angela Flournoy:

Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah, but no, it like really makes you think about it. Okay, if I was, if someone told me tomorrow I had X number of weeks, how would I fill that time? It's an interesting thought

Angela Flournoy:

I would've to rob a bank obviously, like just, just to

Jason Blitman:

for the thrill

Angela Flournoy:

no, to try to, this is just living under capitalism. I'm like, oh, then my. My husband would've to be a single dad. I need to get more money, so I need to get my, John Q on or something until I get this money.

Jason Blitman:

this is very interesting'cause a lot of what you're saying is settling. This is turning into a therapy session. A lot of what you're saying is take care of those. You would leave behind, you'd wanna leave, you'd want to, leave lots of notes for the kids. You'd wanna leave money for the husband. You'd wanna, maybe notes about the books that are in your head so someone else could write them.

Angela Flournoy:

Yeah. Or, put together all these notebooks, like there's actually books in here if you just follow the breadcrumbs like that. I obviously refuse to do currently, like there are books in here.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. That's so funny. Do you have any sisters?

Angela Flournoy:

I have two sisters. I have an older sister and a younger sister.

Jason Blitman:

Okay. There are two sisters in the book. Danielle and Desiree. Danielle was born bossy. Desiree was compliant. Which are you?

Angela Flournoy:

Oh compliant. Compliant.

Jason Blitman:

Oh

Angela Flournoy:

I feel like I,

Jason Blitman:

that's very middle child of you.

Angela Flournoy:

in, in that relationship, in the sibling relationship, I am compliant like in my life. I'm probably bossier, but there's just a way when you're like a, if you have an older sibling who is like very takes up a lot of, attention and space, you can compete or you can just submit And I just submitted like I used to think I was shy and I realized, oh no, I just didn't have a lot of time to talk.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah, I'm the oldest. I relate to everything you're saying. My middle sister, I would say, can relate to exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, I think she is. She's a boss in her real life and she is compliant and in between me and my youngest sister, I would say. But we love her. She's the best. Okay. There's something that comes up in the book that felt so disgustingly real to me. I don't know if you've seen, I've been drinking outta my Zabars mug. I am. I am a New Yorker at heart. New Yorker at heart. I lived there for many years. There's a scene where there's apartment hunting going on, And she has all of her documents, all of her checkbook, her cash, her this or that. People do not understand what apartment hunting in New York is like, And so thank you for sharing with the world.

Angela Flournoy:

Yeah, she's got like her color printed, like credit report. So they could see the green. They need to see the green, right? Like a quick glance. They need to see green and yeah, it still feels like she only gets the apartment because she has a name that is like raceless. Like it doesn't, if anything, it leans to white January wells, like you wouldn't know ahead of time that. She was black. And so when she shows up the broker doesn't dare not give her their apartment, but he tries to make it sound worse than it even is, hoping she'll just give up on the apartment.

Jason Blitman:

But she is no, I literally have the receipts and you're gonna give it to me, and I have my pen, my black ink.

Angela Flournoy:

Rest. I have the money order. What do you need? I have everything.

Jason Blitman:

Literally my husband and I On a garbage can outside of an apartment in Astoria with our cash, with our this, with our that, with our credit report. Because that is just how it goes. And like literally there were people waiting on the sidewalk to see the apartment while we're filling out the floor.

Angela Flournoy:

And you were like, it's not yours. It's not yours.

Jason Blitman:

yes. Oh my

Angela Flournoy:

it is. I feel like LA is starting to become that way, but it wasn't always that way.

Jason Blitman:

Okay, so the other thing that felt so true, both in the New York universe, but also just like life in general, was the concept of why it was so reasonable to pay$800 at a club for drinks. But that a$40 cab ride was absolutely not. And I was like, wait, this is New York math, and it makes it makes so much sense to me. Why? Why do you think that is? I don't understand.

Angela Flournoy:

I think it's because it's you know that it's two things. One, like a$40 cab ride. Before there was uber surges, there was just cabs would turn off the meter and tell you a price. They would be like, where are you going? And they would tell you a price so you know you're being gouged. Like it doesn't, the rate is not just the rate. Whereas like at the club, if you're not a celebrity, like there's a an evil printout of the prices of these bottles. And that's the

Jason Blitman:

You know what you're getting yourself into. Yeah. Yeah. There's also something about you're at the club, it's gonna cost what it's gonna cost. Whereas when you're in the cab, you're like, there's that part of you that knows, I could have taken the subway,

Angela Flournoy:

I could have. Yeah. Or

Jason Blitman:

it could have been$2 and 50 cents.

Angela Flournoy:

yes, or maybe even I could have just gotten into a different cab and may even if the meter is on, maybe he would've just driven faster or something like,

Jason Blitman:

though what's hilarious is it's by mileage and not time. So no ma I this, I've always been in a cab and I'm like, come on, just go faster. I'm like, no, it's really the same no matter what,

Angela Flournoy:

it doesn't feel that way

Jason Blitman:

I know it

Angela Flournoy:

when you go slower, you see it ticking up

Jason Blitman:

I know. Oh my God. I was reading it and like sweating.'cause I was like, yes, this feels so real. All right. This I don't know how to bring this up. Peeps are mentioned in the book, the marshmallow treat.

Angela Flournoy:

you were saying peeps as in people. I was like, yes. Say more. Yes,

Jason Blitman:

This is a book about peeps. Peeps. The marshmallows come up in the book and it almost made me close it. I was so offended. I hate them. Tell me more. Are you a fan?

Angela Flournoy:

Wait, it's not in a positive way

Jason Blitman:

No, it's not. You're right. You're right. But still, it's still mentioned and it's like.

Angela Flournoy:

you

Jason Blitman:

It's like saying the president's name on the podcast. I'm like no. I'm gonna edit it out. Even if you say it in a negative way.

Angela Flournoy:

Okay. So I didn't know that you felt that strongly. I didn't know there was a contingency of people.'cause you hear so much about the Candy Corn community and last about the PEEP community, but. Like candy corn's not in there because I just was, the third rail, I didn't wanna do it

Jason Blitman:

The candy corn community. Oh my God, I'm dying.

Angela Flournoy:

both sides. Like they're just so passionate.

Jason Blitman:

Yes. And this is like we are talking about it on the brink of Kand corn season.

Angela Flournoy:

Very much and

Jason Blitman:

How? Where do you stand?

Angela Flournoy:

A little bit is fine.

Jason Blitman:

A little bit is fine. I

Angela Flournoy:

Have I exposed my child to candy corn? No, because I'm worried she might be a candy corn person and I can't risk it.

Jason Blitman:

No.

Angela Flournoy:

What if she's obsessed?

Jason Blitman:

and the only thing worse than a candy corn person is a candy corn pumpkin person.

Angela Flournoy:

Oh, it's like I need even more food coloring.

Jason Blitman:

No,

Angela Flournoy:

I need some black

Jason Blitman:

more wax, right? No. I can have one candy corn, and that is my limit. Maybe two.

Angela Flournoy:

Yeah, but no, like a big bowl. Like just a bowl of loose candy corn.

Jason Blitman:

Absolutely not though. Hilariously a couple of years ago, Katie Couric posted something on Instagram. It was like a meme about candy, corn and how, if you like, pile it around in circles, it like makes a corn on the cob. And I was like, oh, that's crazy. And of course that makes sense. That's why. How they do, and I did it and I tagged her in it and she replied to me,

Angela Flournoy:

Oh, so she's a candy corn person?

Jason Blitman:

I can't remember, but they honestly, you know what? She probably wasn't because if she was, then I would've unfollowed her, but. Pees are the spring candy corn.

Angela Flournoy:

Yeah, they are the candy corn of the spring, and they are, but I find fewer people love them, except the other day I actually did have a conversation with someone who said they love the iridescent pink ones. Just more chemicals. Why? I don't know.

Jason Blitman:

This is astonishing to me.

Angela Flournoy:

This is a writer. I'm not gonna name their name, but this is like a real person. And they said they like them because they taste happier.

Jason Blitman:

What does that even mean?

Angela Flournoy:

Exactly. Because peeps have no flavor. They don't like, it's not like

Jason Blitman:

No, it's like sugar. No

Angela Flournoy:

But this person iridescent pink peeps.

Jason Blitman:

We have a lot of writer friends in common, obviously. Now every single writer I talk to, I'm gonna bring it up and I'm gonna, I'm

Angela Flournoy:

See how they behave. Yeah, just see.

Jason Blitman:

so funny. There's a lot of restaurant kitcheny in the wilderness.

Angela Flournoy:

I also was a server slash manager at a restaurant in DC when I was working on the Turner House.

Jason Blitman:

Oh, cool.

Angela Flournoy:

Yes.

Jason Blitman:

There is something on the menu in Nikki's restaurant that she is a recipe that she got from Desiree's grandfather. Is there anything like that in your life where you're like, oh, I have, or I want so and so's recipe for this, or so and so's mom's recipe for that.

Angela Flournoy:

Yes. Sometimes when you belong to a community, they believe that they're the only ones who do this thing. And then, there's that always that annoying person on Twitter or Instagram who's we do this thing too. So I feel like one of those things, I don't remember where I saw this, probably, and the platform formerly known as Twitter the, somebody talked about how like black people do not like to share their recipes and that they think it has to do with the fact that. So much of their recipes were like, they were working in like domestic capacities in people's homes and these white people took their recipes and then just said, it's southern cooking. But it was like, no, this is black. This is African American cooking. But, and so then, but people in the comments were like, my grandma, I'm from El Salvador. My grandma doesn't like to share her recipes either, et cetera. So who knows? But a lot of older people in my family. A lot of older women in my family are very protective of the recipes. Like my late Aunt Rose was so protective of her pineapple upside down cake recipe that she did not really tell anyone before she died. And now we just are left with like sad, improvised facsimile by people who saw her.'cause she didn't even used to let people see her. But she did let some people see her. But there's no like actual official recipe.

Jason Blitman:

Wow.

Angela Flournoy:

And I used that to scare my dear Aunt Alicia do not do that with the carrot cake. Do not do that with the carrot cake. I know you want to be the one to bring it. You want no one to steal your shine, but do not like, not forget to actually write it down

Jason Blitman:

Do we know that it's written somewhere? Can we like, have her write it down and put it in a safe box or in a, at the

Angela Flournoy:

I'm working on this, but I know she has told my cousin, but then every time my cousin has tried to replicate it, it has not been quite right and I feel like she is gatekeeping still some secret

Jason Blitman:

Something.

Angela Flournoy:

She is we're not doing that until I feel like it's time. But even like her sweet potato pie recipe, she told me on the phone and it was a lot of non measurements and it's

Jason Blitman:

on, aunt

Angela Flournoy:

just put it in there until it looks right. And I'm like.

Jason Blitman:

What does it mean to look right? Send pictures.

Angela Flournoy:

So some of those things I have tried to get the measurements myself by trial and error, but yeah, so I have a few like that. Yes,

Jason Blitman:

Okay. Oh, I am like, I'm on a, I'm on this journey though now once I need to make sure that this carrot cake recipe lives on in the world.

Angela Flournoy:

If you had this carrot cake, you would understand. It is not like any carrot cake you've had around.

Jason Blitman:

Okay.

Angela Flournoy:

I.

Jason Blitman:

Have you been to Carrot top pastries?

Angela Flournoy:

No. Where is it?

Jason Blitman:

It is in Washington Heights. You have to go to Carrot top pastries. It is right off the hundred and 68th Street subway station.

Angela Flournoy:

Okay. I'm dropping a pen.

Jason Blitman:

They have carrot cake muffins. They have carrot cake. They, their ULA is out of control. I don't, this is not to compete with Auntie Alicia,

Angela Flournoy:

I'm in. I'm interested in the information,

Jason Blitman:

yes. You just need to, it is worth having. It is worth going to.

Angela Flournoy:

dropping a pen. Thank you.

Jason Blitman:

I dream about their ula. I dream about their carrot cake muffins, their carrot muffins there. If there's one thing, if you take away from this conversation, it is that They have good sandwiches. I'm a big fan, so

Angela Flournoy:

is very good to know. Thank you.

Jason Blitman:

That's my PSA. In the book there is a party hosted that is, they call it the group of seven because that's like the, perfect ratio of people to have a party. Who would your seven be?

Angela Flournoy:

Oh man. Am I trying to have that party because that's a very specific goal for that party.

Jason Blitman:

No. Just like in general, and it doesn't, you don't, even if you don't wanna name names, like who, what are the kinds of seven people that you would wanna bring together?

Angela Flournoy:

mind naming names.

Jason Blitman:

You're like, let, I'm gonna put it in writing.

Angela Flournoy:

Listen, I'm trying to speak it into come on, I wanna have this, I wanna have this party, that party. Like the goal for that party is to try to raise awareness about the climate, but also just to be mixy for Nicky's sake. Like they just wanna have people that they think are cool and should know each other in a room. Or people that they think make them look cool. I know some people who don't make six figures like, that makes me feel cool, so let's have one of them in the room,

Jason Blitman:

I'll be there. I don't make six figures.

Angela Flournoy:

right? So you would be, you might, Jay would be the character who's this was her brain child. She would be like, you know what, we need him because we need real people

Jason Blitman:

Jason is so real.

Angela Flournoy:

yeah, so for my group of seven I would absolutely want somebody who I just think is really like funny. And that is my good friend new Yorker, staff writer Vincent Cunningham. He's just really funny and he is also just a person who can like, mix it up with anyone, which is something I deeply admire. Aspire to.

Jason Blitman:

Shout out to his book. Great Expectations that came out last

Angela Flournoy:

And I would want someone not from this country, like absolutely.

Jason Blitman:

Assuming they want to be here.

Angela Flournoy:

yes. Assuming they wanna this party doesn't have to happen,

Jason Blitman:

you're right, no, this is right.

Angela Flournoy:

In, the contiguous or territories does not have to happen. And that might be my friend Gaysn poet, Yahi Asur who is also very funny. But just somebody who doesn't think about he there. There's a presumption that I think especially American Tab about just. Anything, like how things are supposed to be. And I value his friendship because I'm reminded often like this is a presumption that just comes from, provincialism, even though I've traveled a lot, et cetera. It's important to be reminded of that. I don't think I can list seven people. It feels very hard, but

Jason Blitman:

No, because I was thinking the same thing. I was like, I don't know. And the pressure of the seven right. People?

Angela Flournoy:

I certainly would want someone older, which again, I'm very into intergenerational friendships so that older person could be. I am a deep admirer of the curator Thelma Golden, who runs the Studio Museum of Harlem. Maybe I could trick Thelma to come to my dinner party. But those are, I guess some of the qualities are people who I just feel like are funny and can get along with anyone. People who I think are, do not bring the same sort of perspective. Not that they would need to be useful in that way, but, I think it would just like organically arise. I love visual art. I also love food. Why not you, why not ina Anna Jeffrey?

Jason Blitman:

Yes.

Angela Flournoy:

This party's happening in the Hamptons at their house Actually,

Jason Blitman:

perfect. Okay, this is to, in summation, we have a normal person, a funny person, someone outside this country, an older person, an artist, a chef, and you.

Angela Flournoy:

Yes.

Jason Blitman:

That's a great list.

Angela Flournoy:

We got to seven. I didn't think we Okay.

Jason Blitman:

I love that. It's a good it's a good structure of an interesting group of people to come together.

Angela Flournoy:

Yes.

Jason Blitman:

Anyway, I was curious'cause I had a very hard time, so I wanted to get inspired. Before I let you go, there's something I wanna talk to you about. There is briefly in the book there. A sort of talk of goodness and what that means, and not to name drop or humble brag, but I did just have Stacey Abrams on gay's reading and we talked a bit as well about goodness and what it means to be good. And she just had an interesting response and I was curious what that means to you.

Angela Flournoy:

This is an important. Thing to think about once you have a character gripe about it in your book. But I think about I think about kindness a lot more than goodness. I think I was raised not really to prize niceness or goodness as much as like kindness. Like one thing about New York is that I love, but that it also is like just a thing to contend with is that people you have to witness in a way that it can be tucked away in car cities, people with different mobility capabilities. And so a thing like you are like, there's just like the kindness of. A New Yorker just picking up the end of a stroller and helping somebody get it down the stairs and going about their day right? Or literally the other day, this woman, like an older woman, had her little granny cart trying to get into the bodega, but there was like that cement lip she couldn't get over. And I just reached and yanked it up and I just kept going. And I find that kind of kindness is maybe like more important to me than goodness, because I also worry about the inherent performativity of goodness. It's about can you be good if it's like a tree falling in the forest if no one witnesses it, but kindness is about the person who you did the thing for. They witnessed it. You didn't need anything from them. And in New York, people can be pathological about, about I don't want anything. I am, don't, I'm trying to make the train. No,

Jason Blitman:

I just, I wanna move faster, so I'm gonna help you down

Angela Flournoy:

or I just, yeah. It's I'm gonna help you because I see it, but I'm not, it's not gonna be a whole thing. And I feel, especially in, hashtag these times, I do feel like people have to figure out. Where they can apply even small, like just kindness to people. Like I feel like that is a thing that is going to help like communities survive. I think there's a great community space called another world in Crown Heights that a friend of mine is really involved in, and I've just tangentially gone to their staff, their events. But one of the things that this community space has really helped me realize is that. They just like, like they have play dates, like just open to anyone for two hours. Sometimes on the weekends they are just in the business of what does this community need and let's give it if we can. And it's not necessarily about any individual person. I'm sure it is'cause that's just human nature being good. But it is like together, it's like such a huge good, but it's just all of these small acts of kindness that they do. By having the space and by letting people feel like they can be part of it. Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

I just love it because everyone has their own interpretation of what it means, and I think that's really I, there are so many other things I could talk to you about. The book is so beautiful and you're gonna fall in love with these women and they're world, world and I don't wanna talk about the title even though I like. Have questions for you about the wilderness in your world. But I'll let readers read it and have their own thoughts and feelings. But everyone, go get your copy with Wilderness. Angela Flournoy, thank you so much for being here

Angela Flournoy:

For me, this was so much fun.

Jason Blitman:

Rickey Laurentiis Welcome to GA's Reading. I

Rickey Laurentiis:

Still understood is gay. Appreciate

Jason Blitman:

I appreciate you saying that because I, it's I'm like not old, but I feel like I am of how dare you I'm 37. I'm 37. I'm 37 Okay. I am from the a, a quote unquote generation where gay was all encompassing. And when I say, guest gay reader, to me that is anyone who is LGBTQIA plus. So I appreciate that you feel seen because I do see all of the people when I say that.

Rickey Laurentiis:

Yeah. It's funny how all these kind of terms have different usages and balances and stuff, so that's about gay.

Jason Blitman:

So as my guest gay reader today, let's start off right off the bat. What are you reading?

Rickey Laurentiis:

what am I reading right now? I'm gonna try to answer this honestly, the last thing I was reading.

Jason Blitman:

don't have to be honest. You can answer

Rickey Laurentiis:

No, I'm gonna answer it. reading,

Jason Blitman:

not the reading, police.

Rickey Laurentiis:

I was on a, like a, a wiki rabbit hole. I like to, I love to read, but I also love to research and like on. And I was just reading, the Etymology of Faith. that's the very last

Jason Blitman:

the etymology of

Rickey Laurentiis:

Yeah, I was looking it up because I just wanted to see, I don't really trust definitions, but I love etymology. I like see the, I like to see the, the path the word has taken through history and some of his residences there. I like to see that. More, more often than a state. a straight definition.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. Was there something that you learned that surprised you about faith?

Rickey Laurentiis:

not really. No. it was pretty, pretty much star no trouble. Stop. My trying to get out. it was, I guess what I was right in the middle of it, so I don't really have. It's really smart, ideas say about it yet, but I, something that was interesting this term, rock fastness came up. Rock fastness, and I thought that was, I thought that I'm gonna definitely use it, but I thought that was like a kind of beautiful quasi image to to put aside faith as something. And I'm not entirely, I'm not overzealous. I'm spiritual, but I'm not. Evangelical. But, so that's what I was most literally reading, but right now I'm trying to, so you know, I've, today's my pub day, my book came out.

Jason Blitman:

Yes. Pub Day.

Rickey Laurentiis:

I'm excited about that. And in those 10 years to write it, I have had a, steadily more, confused relationship with contemporary poetry. I read a lot in antiquity. I read a lot in the past, and so I'm trying to get, I'm trying to welcome myself and urge myself back into the flux and flow of contemporary poetics. And but I'm not doing it very well. The very last thing I was reading was the End of Beauty by Jerry Graham, which came out in the eighties.

Jason Blitman:

to some people that's contemporary.

Rickey Laurentiis:

I think she's a brilliant. Being, but I will always read her. But that's the, I don't have it show you, but that's very last thing I was reading. I think next, if I can do this, I wanna give a shout out. I think next I'm finally open up my good friend Sophia Sinclair's book, how to Say Babylon. I've had it for, it's been on my bookshelf for just too long, and now I'm ready to, sculpt to what I wanna say to uncover its beauty,

Jason Blitman:

love. You, talked about reading poetry in antiquity,

Rickey Laurentiis:

Are you a poet?

Jason Blitman:

no, but so

Rickey Laurentiis:

says with El offense in his

Jason Blitman:

No. I am not articulate I'm not metaphoric enough. I like, couldn't, I don't speak

Rickey Laurentiis:

You read it,

Jason Blitman:

beautiful enough. I'm

Rickey Laurentiis:

think that way. You think

Jason Blitman:

I'm learning to appreciate it. So I was gonna ask

Rickey Laurentiis:

Oh, that's exciting. Okay.

Jason Blitman:

me and to listeners who might be like poetry what would you say to that person?

Rickey Laurentiis:

I would say I get it. Like I, I think of poet, I

Jason Blitman:

I get but by my book.

Rickey Laurentiis:

by my book the late Louis GL who was. Our most recent American Nobel laureate for poetry, she won a couple of, just very close to when she died. She writes in the essay that poet is not a noun for passport. It doesn't describe a professionalization in the ways that maybe doctor does, a lawyer does. for me, every time I admit, and it does feel like I'm, every time I admit that I'm a poet and not just a poet. I take it seriously. I publish and stuff. I am reminded of the embarrassment some kind of way. I have that feeling of embarrassment with it, which, there's nothing to be embarrassed by logically, but I it reminds me of myself when I was still a child and I was very in the Dickinson about it. I was like writing secretly to myself and.

Jason Blitman:

Huh?

Rickey Laurentiis:

as a gay youth. And, it was the way, it was the means in which I was able to learn myself and come into myself. So I would say to that person who's like a little bit hesitant with poems, not, enjoy mine if you like. but I would say just dive in and try to find some kind comfort. This is what poetry does. Poetry brings you up. It makes you meet your own language in an exciting and sometimes maddening way. And for people who are not yet comfortable or used to that kind of engagement, that space, poetry can seem like falling into a foreign language, and it can be very, nervous making frightening and, and maybe even humiliating. I'm not sure. So I think I understand all that. I get it, like I said, but I also say that, you don't have to, they were wrong in 11th grade. That's you don't.

Jason Blitman:

I appreciate you saying that, and I'm really glad I asked you that question because I didn't think about it that way. And also you saying, it could be humiliating is so true because the idea of reading something that you don't understand is humiliating, right? So if you, it's I think that might be another reason why people are afraid of poetry.

Rickey Laurentiis:

Particularly Americans and I think it more than likely has to do with us being English speakers being relatively. Isolated. Like we, we don't have a lot of countries around us in comparison to or in juxtaposition to like European countries where they have to like, it's not maybe a matter of like privilege or want, just for the. Of the continent, they need to know something of the other languages as they travel. That's not the case really in America or in the United States. you find just different encounters with English as you move around America. I think that poetry is still, poetry is active and fun and alive in America, but it's still also coming. and I feel like I'm ready for people to experience it the way that I do, and I think it's very beautiful. poems contrary to belief come in so many tones, so many balances, so many modes. Some are serious, others are erotic, some are funny, some are ire, irreverent. and it's just important that people recognize that and introduce themselves, not just to poems, but to art, to painting, to film, to, all the things that make life worth living. It seems

Jason Blitman:

And that are a little bit outside of the comfort zone. Stretch, Stretch, the muscles

Rickey Laurentiis:

sure. it's very much like bottoming. let's just try, just go get there. It's very much,

Jason Blitman:

Patience and breathing

Rickey Laurentiis:

deeply. I'm just thinking about this, but it deeply is related to the idea of bottoming. It's scary at first. It's gonna be arrived, but you know what? You will be rewarded if you just go a little deeper.

Jason Blitman:

What else is there to Rickey? This is bye. Have a great rest of your day. That's, oh my God. If this chapter of your life that you're in right now has a title, what would it be?

Rickey Laurentiis:

E close. that's E-C-L-O-S-E, which is the moment after a, a. After a, caterpillar has de atomized and rolled themselves up into a chrysalis. They emerge from the cocoon or whatever, and before they imagined that, they just oh wow, I'm a butterfly. But they actually have to stay stand or sit there and pump blood into their wings, and that's called theose of the butterfly. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. Close. And so I feel I would title it Theose. I feel like I'm, I feel like I'm a precipice and I'm.

Jason Blitman:

Anyone who's watching maybe saw me roll my eyes at you. And it was simply because the conversation five minutes ago where you asked me if I was a poet, and I was like, no, because I couldn't come up with something so beautiful like it closed. That is beautiful. Ricky, come on.

Rickey Laurentiis:

it's a beautiful word.

Jason Blitman:

Yes.

Rickey Laurentiis:

Yeah,

Jason Blitman:

I love that so much. Okay. Tell the people about your brand new book of poetry. Death of the first idea

Rickey Laurentiis:

sure. definitely the first idea is my second book. It comes after, as I mentioned earlier, a 10 year period from my first book, which is called Boy with Lauren. and then in the interim time I transitioned. So I moved from presenting as what I would've once called maybe a gay twin boy. I don't know. I never had term, I never had terms for it because it never felt in one sense, necessary. And in the other sense, Just, possible, because, and I'll come back to this point, but I did transition over the 10 years, the 10 year span. And, towards the end of that period, I, underwent a series of transformative events in my life. Some of them violent, some of them romantically, some of them lovely. And so the book tries to, and not. Autobiographical way, but more in a mythological way. it tracks those sentiments and it's while also presenting to a readership, some antecedents for where trans life, and you can extend that to queer or gay life. where it arrives from, which is antiquity. That's why I'm way back like. Skip this latest millennium and get to the ones before that for some exciting times.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah, I, it's very much that saying of you have to know where you came from to know where you're going, or something like that.

Rickey Laurentiis:

Yeah. And it's tricky because when, as you look back at the past in terms of identity, it's difficult. It's a hazy pro project because the language has only so recently arrived to describe gay people or to describe. Black people who are free. And so when you go back and you try to look for your antecedent, you have to go, you have to be like a mystery writer. It,

Jason Blitman:

Uncover what it would yeah

Rickey Laurentiis:

for me. I like to do that. I like reading. I just enjoy, that kind of project. But, beyond that, the poem just spilled out of that one place and, hopefully presented as beauty.

Jason Blitman:

I have, I in one of the hats that I wear is a theater director, and whenever I'm directing a show, I often talk about how. My actors shouldn't be afraid to play in the rehearsal room and see what sort of comes up and try new things. Because I'm a firm believer in the first idea isn't necessarily the best idea, and it might not even be until you get to the sixth, seventh, or eighth that you find the one that makes the most sense. So the book title. Really resonates with me. Where does that come from for you? I can I could surmise, poetically, but if you wanted speak about how you wanted to, why you wanted to call your book

Rickey Laurentiis:

call it that. first I wanna say, I think it was Ginsburg who said the first idea, the best idea, which I've never. if you could be so lucky. for anything, only Beyonce wakes up flawless. Only she does. So I don't know. I don't, I I wonder, because you wrote how, which is this long, prophetic text. I'm like, you didn't just burnt that out in one go. this, so it takes Manifest almost anything, except for my title. Death was the first idea was the first thing I heard. It just, it arrived. I received it. I heard it in my head. I said, oh, that's interesting. I wonder what that could mean. Now, this is maybe at this point, eight years ago when this is happening, I haven't transitioned. I haven't moved from Brooklyn to Pittsburgh, to New Orleans. I haven't, I'm an adult. I'm working as a poet, but I haven't yet gone to the second book, which in many ways, it, it functions more like a third book or a fourth book, because. So much has arrived in the interim span of time. but like I said, the title came to me and it, and usually titles, usually I was the opposite way. Usually I will write the thing and then I'll title it. I'll struggle with titles often, but that has reversed. and I think that's fitting. I used to be a very, I was capable, but I was shy, almost painfully and over s of myself and everyone else in. To, and I was hesitant to title myself just like I did before a gay, I dunno.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah

Rickey Laurentiis:

I grew into the title with this book, and so I realized that, and in just the plain, quotidian way, the first idea is just simply your first notion of yourself, which under which necessarily, I'm 36 or 37. A hazy project. It's a hazy kind of notion because you were literally adjusting to the world you were growing. Like I think about when we were born, we're literally here for the first time. So we are trying to adjust to living as opposed in, in addition to also living with this idea of the self in addition to developing that self. and I'm not convinced that. Frankly, anyone gets it or got it right. But I'm not convinced that, I'm not convinced of the narrative that only straight people have that confirmed. And then, gay people, trans people, queer people are delayed in that knowledge. And if they are delayed, whose fault is that? don't know. that's my answer to that

Jason Blitman:

I always say in general, becoming an adult to me meant realizing that no adult knows what they're doing and we're all making it up as we go along.

Rickey Laurentiis:

Yeah Yeah. I think I, I realized that I have that same kind of re revelation when I realized, I was like, why am I scrutinizing myself based on imagined, monologues and strangers heads when probably they're just thinking about their own lives, their own day, their own and they probably. They are adults usually, and they have no idea, they have no more idea of what to do here or there than I do in this second. And so it was like an ego death, it goes back to the title two. it's an ego death that, that I underwent. That was really exciting for me because it also allowed me to, it allowed me to get to the next part of that sentence, what you just said, adulting is the realization that, you know. Probably most adults dunno what they're doing here and there. And I would just add, and also to give grace for that, which doesn't mean be a people pleaser, which doesn't mean be a pushover, but to exchange grace with each other as we would, as we do often with children. we're very

Jason Blitman:

Who are learning

Rickey Laurentiis:

you can't always be that way with an adult, you can give them some notion of grades and it allows you to be, Poised and, capable, I think,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. I think that's such a great way to put it because, realizing that none of us know what we're doing and in turn have grace and patience with the other people around you who don't, also don't know what they're doing.

Rickey Laurentiis:

especially your family to do

Jason Blitman:

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rickey Laurentiis:

I still hold my family to court, I, but I also recognize what Grace does.

Jason Blitman:

Good for you. Have you ever thought about writing a novel?

Rickey Laurentiis:

yeah. yes, I have, I feel like all my writerly career is To with the notion of novel. And so frankly, I'm just like, I know I'm gonna do it eventually, but what will it, be like, because I know it's not gonna be straight fiction. It's not, I'm not that. get that where you get that you, I poet. It seems important to, to remember that I'm, but yeah, the answer to your question is yes.

Jason Blitman:

And I ask because I have learned that one of my favorite, it's not even a sub genre, but something that I made up in my mind is the novel by the poet because. Kave Akbar's book, Sean Hewitt's books, Erika Sanchez's books, ocean Wong's books. They're all, they're poets. And then the

Rickey Laurentiis:

A memoir, but you'll, you the.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah, Erica Sanchez's crying in the Bathroom. Her memoir of essays is one of my favorite books.

Rickey Laurentiis:

yeah. what makes you love them as a poet? what makes it special for you?

Jason Blitman:

It's, that is such a good question because I don't know, I think'cause poets see the world in such a specific way and in turn it, it poems are an economy of words

Rickey Laurentiis:

Right, necessarily.

Jason Blitman:

You often feel like books by poets regardless of how long they are. Every word or every idea really matters. that to me comes across on the page

Rickey Laurentiis:

Yeah. The words are weighted in a different way than what I meant when I said straight, straight PS or straight fiction.

Jason Blitman:

Yes, exactly.

Rickey Laurentiis:

a different, it's a different negotiation with language.

Jason Blitman:

If I got to put in a request for a poem of the future for me, I would love for it to be with the title only Beyonce. Wakes up flawless

Rickey Laurentiis:

Only Beyonce with Aala. I'm gonna it down.

Jason Blitman:

if I got to request a Ricky Loren

Rickey Laurentiis:

You. know there's a only Beyonce with Aala.

Jason Blitman:

You. Those are your words. I'm just repeating your words back to you.

Rickey Laurentiis:

Do know book There's a book? There's a book of poetry that you might enjoy, by Morgan Parker called Their More Beautiful Things in Beyonce.

Jason Blitman:

fun

Rickey Laurentiis:

you. probably will like that book. I suggest There are more beautiful things than Beyonce. I think that's only Beyonce wakes flawless.

Jason Blitman:

Your words, Ricky, your

Rickey Laurentiis:

she wakes up so flawless that she gets up and immediately drops and hit like. That's not human. that's not normal level. It's one thing to wake up and be like, damn, I look good and still look good, but look that good. And to rush to the studio and to say, I have to cut. You know, Beyonce needs to studied, you know, she's a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful idol. But she must be

Jason Blitman:

I would read your dissertation. I

Rickey Laurentiis:

I'm I.

Jason Blitman:

I love it. Are you kidding me? This is my brand. Rickey Laurentiis thank you so much for being my guest gay reader today. This is fabulous. Everybody go get your copy of death of the First Idea. It is out now and I think we all owe it to ourselves to. Become more interested in poetry if we're afraid of it. I'm gonna face my

Rickey Laurentiis:

Could I read, could I read to you on before we

Jason Blitman:

Would you please, I honestly I fantasized about this, but I didn't wanna put you on the spot.

Rickey Laurentiis:

Fan. I love people fantasizing about me. Do it more often. no. I'm gonna, yeah. I like, I'm a poet, so even though I'm embarrassed, I like poems. So I'm gonna

Jason Blitman:

Yes. joy.

Rickey Laurentiis:

this is a short one. Um, it's called disappointment. I think writing through my crisis at my crisis, during crisis, this disappointed me, where before I was fixed, so high black, Turin. Now that I think it don't matter what I think, the tower, the full doubt equipped me with the severe patience, doubt took over my mouth and named convenience. If I rode brass horses thundering in my head, I said nothing. If I said nothing, death, so a moon instead composed me. Pearl. I disappointed everyone, Orisha, even the aunt look, they dessert me with the repeal of my so-called genius and that's that.

Jason Blitman:

Lovely. Oh, thank you so much for reading

Rickey Laurentiis:

You're welcome. Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

I can't wait for all of us to dive in.

Rickey Laurentiis:

Yeah, it'll be fun. Thank you.

Angela Ricky, thank you so much both for being here. Everyone, check out the wilderness and death of the first idea, both books out now, wherever you get your books. Have a wonderful rest of your day and I will see you next week. Bye.

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