Ep.32 Orthoses for Cycling: Performance, Precision and Innovation with Artur Maliszewski

Prepare to elevate your cycling performance as Artur Maliszewski, a podiatrist with a passion for precision, shares the secrets of custom cycling orthoses. Discover the game-changing impact of aligning your feet for the perfect pedal stroke, where every ounce of power is seamlessly transferred to your ride. Artur's approach promises to revolutionize your cycling experience, ensuring that your feet, shoes, and pedals work in flawless harmony.

Join us for a journey through the meticulous process of crafting bespoke orthoses, as Artur unveils the intricate steps from foot scan to final fitting. Learn how tailored orthoses not only boost your speed and stamina but also safeguard your knees from the wear and tear of the road. With Artur's expertise, we navigate the world of elite cycling, revealing how even the narrowest heels and the highest arches can find solace and strength in a perfectly fitted cycling shoe.

Finally, we delve into the sustainable future of sports science with Artur's insights on 3D printing in orthoses. Imagine a world where your athletic gear is not only custom-fit but also kind to the planet, reducing waste and repurposing materials for the next generation of cyclists. Artur's vision for a circular economy in orthoses, footwear, and fashion isn't just a dream—it's a ride we're embarking on together, pushing towards an environmentally conscious finish line. Strap in for an episode that's all about the synergy of cutting-edge technology, bespoke craftsmanship, and the pedal-powered pursuit of a greener world.

@footwork_podiatric_laboratory
www.footwork.com.au

@fireflyorthoses

@arturmaliszewski

@simplythebestpodiatry

@jasonagosta

jason@ja-podiatry.com

@the_championwithin

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

Welcome back to Simply the Best Pilates Show, where we want to pass on simple tips to enhance your best practice. I'm Jason Agosta and in continuing our series on orthosis in clinical practice, we deviate a little today from practitioner opinion and approaches, as I was lucky enough to speak to Arter Melozovsky, podiatrist and founder of Footwork Podiatric Laboratory here in Melbourne, regarding orthosis in cycling and the importance of alignment, orthosis and stability and cycling footwear. Arter has created orthosis and support cycling teams both nationally and internationally. We discussed orthosis and cycling and also on the manufacturing of orthosis with regards to sustainability within the podiatry profession. Arter Melozovsky, one of the things I'm really interested in is how and why you've become involved with the world tour cycling teams and you know what sort of work that involves.

Speaker 2: 1:21

My involvement is just history passion in cycling itself. I did a little bit of racing many years ago when I was at uni. My final year by mechanics thesis was actually on the foot mechanics in cycling and since going into orthotic manufacture I always thought that there was a little bit of a gap in that field. As far as improved foot function inside the cycling shoe, because it's so different to the running gate or anything else. I mean it's much closer, I suppose, to your skiing and snowboarding and even we've come across now to even rowing, where the foot doesn't there's no heel-toe contact, it's strapped in, there's no real pronation. So just assessing that and how can it be improved through efficiency Cycling is all about especially at the elite level when you're racing is all about improving efficiency and getting the most efficient way of turning the pedal over, transferring power to the pedal.

Speaker 1: 2:28

Is this what you studied in your final year thesis? Though that's what I did in my final year thesis on Was it on power output or Well, there's no power back then.

Speaker 2: 2:37

So it was more about alignment and reducing the movement of the foot inside the shoe. So what I looked at back then was the alignment of the foot, because we all have a certain degree of tibial varum, vast majority of us. So when you line up your foot with your lower third of your leg, your subpella joint, as soon as you plank that foot on a flat pedal, your foot's pronated. Sure yeah. When it's pronated, then the theory goes it's unlocked and it's unstable and it's a loose bag of bones.

Speaker 1: 3:08

Is it on the bike, though? Is that a problem on the bike?

Speaker 2: 3:12

Well what it is once it's pronated and your foot actually collapses in the pedal. So any movement of your foot inside the shoe results in loss of power because that force going from your leg is lost between the leg and the pedal within the shoe itself. So what I looked at and back then we weren't looking obviously, as a student my knowledge on on orthodic manufacture and orthodic function wasn't to the level that it is now after 30 plus years of experience, and so what I looked at is just pure function of the foot and how we could improve it by improving the position of the shoe in relation to the foot and the pedal, and that was through wedging the shoe itself and putting wedges under the plate between the. So the plate would be parallel to the pedal, but the shoe would then be wedged in a various and we came up with a four degree as a most efficient way and pretty much used washes to put under look plates on the medial side to achieve that various angle.

Speaker 1: 4:13

So did you look at the different levels? Did you different levels, different angles?

Speaker 2: 4:20

We looked at some what four degrees happens to be the magic marker in foot archery. You know anything four degrees. So we measured it, four degrees and how you could improve that, and it came up with the theory back then I think it would have been yeah yeah, definitely, we were talking, you know, 1992, you know.

Speaker 2: 4:37

So we came up with four degrees and and we sort of summarized that. You know, the four degree position of the shoe in relation to the pedal would improve that alignment of the foot with inside the shoe to the lower leg, which would keep your leg tracking straight up. But then of course, once you've aligned that, the foot will still move independently of what the sub tail I mean, that's what joints do inside the shoe itself. You know, back in those days I should have paid into it, because now you've got shoe manufacturers, they actually have that built at four degrees. Yeah well, imagine that.

Speaker 1: 5:09

Well, the shoe manufacturers are doing that with their inserts, aren't they Specialized, has it?

Speaker 2: 5:14

Not inserts. The actual sole of the shoe is wedged at four degrees in the. S-word shoes. Yeah right, there's another one. I think it's Lake that has a three degree. I may be wrong, but I know there's another brand that has it. I think it's a three degree angle, but I know that S-Word has a four degree, wedging at the top and choosing built into the sole.

Speaker 1: 5:37

While you're talking about shoes, you make me think that there's obviously a massive difference between the shoe that you wear, with supporting and keeping you well aligned, but also power output.

Speaker 2: 5:52

There is. I mean, the shoe's got to be stiff and stiff and to run. We want to stiffen everything up and majority of the people that we see come to us because they want to increase their efficiency. But of those that have presently problems such as, you know, hot spots, burning sensation, aches and pains in the feet, 99% will be footwear related.

Speaker 2: 6:17

Most of the time, either the shoes are too soft, too sloppy, not holding them properly so they have to grip with their toes to get more traction and stability, or not fitting properly. They are too wide, too narrow, too small, and the narrowness of the shoes is a big issue. So we find that a lot of people that have problems, you know, with pinching and fit going numb is because the shoes aren't fit properly. They're small, too narrow. Is this why? To test it is just to pull the original insole out of the shoe and just get placed it under their foot and see how much it overhangs.

Speaker 1: 6:55

Is that a big problem? The people are trying to wear shoes that are tighter, stiffer and just literally too small for them.

Speaker 2: 7:03

Definitely we see it a lot. We see it a lot and just by improving the shoe fit, all those problems go away and then we improve their efficiency. One of the things I mean we'd love to be able to and we're working on it through involvement with some of the proteins that we work with on how to measure improvements in power. It's such a difficult thing to do subjectively. It's subjective, and measuring power on an athlete and cycling and if you want to check, you know 2-3-4% I mean the way that he feels on the day will make a bigger difference. Yeah, but overall we are getting.

Speaker 2: 7:44

One of the things that we've tested going back probably at 4-5 years ago, was the amount of movement reduction we are getting with orthotics inside on elite cyclists this is national level cyclists. So we tested it in the Obama Mechanics lab and testing the medial lateral movement in the knee and the ankle and we were getting over 50% reduction in that movement and those guys are already told. You know you're talking one or two millimeters, but we actually more than a half that again by the medial lateral movement, which is wasted movement when it goes to the, when we're talking about the cycling stroke.

Speaker 2: 8:24

Right yeah, so you're trying to exert all your energy through the pedal with no movement yeah With straight up there, medial lateral, I mean once your foot pronates inside the cycling, not only does it collapse and that's a lot of movement but the leg into your X-8 and you're stretching your glutes, which are a major muscle in the cycling stroke. So you're stretching it, putting it out of position.

Speaker 2: 8:48

You know getting not getting that efficiency through those muscles, either yeah, and then once you lose that, then you start twisting your pelvis from the saddle, create slower back problems etc. Etc. So it has a really big impact. We work with a couple of clinics that offer and biomechanics that offer cycling pressure mapping in the saddle and they're works down by how much difference the orthotics make to pressure mapping on the saddle itself Really. Okay, yeah, how much more stability you get. So you know, all those things are pointing us in your right direction.

Speaker 1: 9:24

So if we keep, the foot and lower than aligned, you've got more symmetries sitting on the seat or the saddle or the bike. Well everything's moving in one direction, and even distribution. Is that what you're saying of pressure?

Speaker 2: 9:37

Yeah, yeah, even distribution of pressure. You're not getting slaving or twisting or shearing on the saddle.

Speaker 1: 9:42

Yes.

Speaker 2: 9:43

Because you're more planter. There is no need. You know the leg's not turning anymore, so your pelvis is not twisting etc.

Speaker 1: 9:49

Yeah, and of course, there's a massive influence on the knee.

Speaker 2: 9:55

Oh, hugely, hugely. And that's look the way we've come up for assessment for cycling orthotics. One of the first things we look at is the ability for the athlete to have adequate external rotation in the hip. Because if they don't, if we place an orthotic inside the cycling shoe which will slightly externally rotate the lower leg and the hip and they don't have that range of movement, we will then affect function of the knee, will actually cause a problem in the knee. The lower leg will be externally rotated, hip will be going inwards and going at three, four hours at 90, 95, 100 RPM. It's like China's water filter.

Speaker 2: 10:35

Eventually something will go up here so that's one of the major things that we look at when assessing for cycling orthotics and changing anything. We don't look at, you know, cleat placements. We don't look at bike setups ourselves. We leave that to those guys that do it really well. We just look at purely foot function inside the shoe.

Speaker 1: 10:55

Yeah, so we're talking alignment and then pressure, obviously.

Speaker 2: 10:58

Yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: 11:01

So with the World Tour teams you've obviously done this locally and nationally, but now this is sort of filtered right through to the world class level here.

Speaker 2: 11:12

Yeah, look, we started sponsoring, probably about 10 years ago, the World Tour teams, or what's called NRA National Ride Series, where the guys it's pretty much a development for Aussie riders the junior guys, and then they go off into Europe. So 10, 12 years of involvement in that sponsoring teams and we sponsored it purely to have access to the cyclists, so we could you know, the road was at Tesla laboratory and getting feedback from them adjusting the design, what can we make better? And those cyclists now, you know, four or five, six years later go off to Europe and we're getting messages from them saying I've changed that team, they've got new shoes, I need another pair. So what's happening now is, particularly this time of the year in our summer, you know, you've got a lot of the cyclists coming into a place like Adelaide or IC. Yeah, so we'll go catch up with them.

Speaker 2: 12:07

A lot of the other international riders on the team will want to get their dancing. With the New Year's assessment staff scan them and then a week later we see them in Geelong for the Kedel road race. We'll actually issue all the robotics. So we did that, particularly this year for the number of the riders.

Speaker 1: 12:23

Yes, You've gone to the tour down under, so we'll speak about that for a second. So the guys who are on the international teams come out here, you fly to Adelaide, set them up or scan them for what they need as far as orthoses for their cycle shoes or bike shoes, and then a week later they're in their shoes. Yes, and what you? I think what I'm getting at is that you, or the question is, once you've started with the Australian guys and girls, that has filtered through internationally, because those people are, like you know, changing teams as they just like changing football clubs.

Speaker 2: 12:59

Yeah, they move around, they move around Okay. So we now have cyclists, like in the world too. We're talking tour de France. You know, during the Italian, what teams? Six. I can't mention that. Now there is, I can't mention that.

Speaker 1: 13:17

I'll mention. Let me take a guess, it's got to be.

Speaker 2: 13:21

Well, there's one Australian team.

Speaker 1: 13:22

Think of the teams I know there's a pseudo lotto team. There's EF, there's Yombo Visma yeah, had riders, I'm sure there's a canyon team.

Speaker 2: 13:31

I'm just not trying to think of it.

Speaker 1: 13:37

I have not much of an idea a little bit.

Speaker 2: 13:39

Up until now we haven't had anything official of that teams and we actually got into trouble where some of the cyclists well, we didn't decide was going to travel with their posted some social media stuff, and the same happens to have a sponsor who is involved in the orthotic business and they got, you know, the knuckles rack. So we are really close to signing a couple of official supply contracts with that team so we'll be able to mention and use for promotional purposes etc. So that's it, I'm actually flying.

Speaker 2: 14:12

It is. It's very exciting. I'll just look at a meeting last night where I'm actually flying out to Europe in the next two, three weeks and meeting with that team officially to scan all the cyclists that assessed them at one of the screen plastics got invited to, so that will be announced officially in the next two, three weeks.

Speaker 2: 14:30

Fantastic, well done which is really good, which opens us up. Look, we have now as an orthotic manufacturer for general orthotics. We have an artist in Italy, we have an artist in Paris, in Copenhagen, in all over the UK, and we're partnering up with a lab in the UK to be able to manufacture and distribute on site. With those athletes We'll be able to manufacture orthotics. Those cyclists eventually will be able to go and see those. But our choice, without us having to fly out there. You know, it is a specific and slightly different assessment for the cycling orthotics that was my next question how different is it compared to walking and running?

Speaker 2: 15:14

when you're assessing these athletes, the assessment is very similar because I look, I use my knowledge and understanding of the function. I mean, I actually get the cyclists to walk up and down to purely for me to understand and have a look how they function. Yeah, that's the first thing I will do, and it gives me an idea of literally how they function, how the foot moves, and then you just go through a basic assessment from hip down to the big toe, you know, assessing all the joints. What's going to be supported with most of the elite cyclists, what we're finding is, without sounding sexist, I would say they would have a foot like a 12 year old girl, where it's a fairly, fairly narrow heel.

Speaker 1: 15:57

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:58

Fairly hyper mobile, higher arched, slightly wider forefoot, and it's simply because they didn't. The foot has an experience the weight bearing loading that a runner or a football player would have.

Speaker 1: 16:11

Okay, so is this muscular development, muscular and born development. Yeah, yeah For fat pad.

Speaker 2: 16:19

For fat pad.

Speaker 1: 16:20

Really yes yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:24

There were those guys that had, like football and you know, been triathletes and moved into cycling or did running, and you can see that as well. But most of the guys that started cycling when they were eight, 10 years old and that's all they've done. You know, the foot looks like a 12 year old girl's foot, Really Okay. That's a fairly specific foot type. Is what we're finding. I mean, you get the differences in ranges of motion and so forth, but, as far as you know, slopping their right heel slightly wider forefoot, because all the pressure is on the forefoot.

Speaker 1: 16:54

Okay, so this is. This brings us back to the need to be quite individualized. Then with the fitting of all the sizes for the cycle shoes.

Speaker 2: 17:04

Definitely. You know, and the pressure is different and look, we've come up with our own design protocol for the cycling orthotic and it's our IP and the way that we do it. It kind of goes away a little bit from the early thinking on cycling orthotics where everything was controlled at the forefoot, because the foot is planted at the forefoot.

Speaker 1: 17:26

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:27

We've gone away from that a little bit and we're finding, with the studies and testing that we did, that we're getting a really good result compared to controlling just the forefoot.

Speaker 1: 17:38

So, talking about forefoot, just one question Do you have any idea what the pressure is Like body weight pressure that goes through the forefoot when riding? Look, it's obviously going to change Body weight.

Speaker 2: 17:52

Yeah, Body weight. We can talk in the terms of weights because we can measure power at foot. So as far as kilograms, so as far as what's the average tool, cyclist will have an FTP of in the high 300 plus over 400 watts, which means they're putting 400 watts of pressure and that's per pad or per stroke, which is huge. You're talking. Your average weekend rider will be in the low 200s. So it's a lot of pressure and FTP is the measure of power they can sustain for an hour. So where somebody in the ground to other top end guys will be 400 plus somebody like myself and you will hold it for about 30 seconds before we have a heart attack.

Speaker 1: 18:45

So therefore, your devices that you make for cycling, to be specific, have to take that into account as far as. So what we've spoken about is position, pressure and fit, yeah, so it's quite different. See, I see the concepts, but a different setup for the cyclist. So what are you actually using in for the cyclist?

Speaker 2: 19:12

As far as an orthodontic is concerned, yes, as far as devices.

Speaker 2: 19:15

So it's a custom made device made to a scan of the foot and because we're applying the pressure predominantly in the reef around the system, take on tail, eye to tail and legicula joint, where we want to really make sure that the satela joint doesn't penetrate too much, and then unlock the rest of the forefoot. And then we wagered a little bit more laterally as well to create a torque mechanism because there is not much pressure in that as far as ground reaction force. We really overload that region. We put probably four or five times the amount of pressure that we would with a walking or running orthodontic for that given patient. It's posted higher. There's a medial, what we call a medial wrap. Some people might call it a medial flange from the assistant, from the assistant that we're working on tail eye through to the telomadical area, when the cyclists were almost makes them feel like. The explanation we get quite often is very common is they feel like they just put on a ski boot, they feel locked in.

Speaker 1: 20:21

Right, so it's quite high on the side to stabilize them Okay.

Speaker 2: 20:25

To stabilize them. Yes, yeah, which then you know improves. If you've got a shoe that's slightly more flexible in the top, in the upper, that actually helps the shoe as well.

Speaker 1: 20:37

That has to be a massive problem the flexibility of the uppers of the shoes. It is.

Speaker 2: 20:43

It is, because I kind of explain it the same as your wheels on your car. You can have the best eyes on your car. The wheel nuts aren't done properly. They're not good.

Speaker 1: 20:53

So I've actually seen that and we've actually seen that in the running shoes as well, how we've got these woven uppers now and they feel amazing. And I have put some of the cycle shoes on where they've got the woven uppers and they feel like a glove and just conform to you beautifully. But they're so sloppy to run in and I'm assuming it's the same to riding.

Speaker 2: 21:13

There is a, there is a Waltz who team that have got a rider that has won a grand tour, is very popular and you wears a woven type shoe and you look at him and you kind of go, you are cleaning your chain with your medial mayhem, so you're rolling in that.

Speaker 1: 21:35

Clean chain rides fast.

Speaker 2: 21:36

Right, well, yeah, there's other problems yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:42

So sorry to deviate, but we'll go back to your orthotic business for a sec. So no problem. Got quite a high medial flange or sidewall If you want to call it that. So what else has to be put in place as far as materials?

Speaker 2: 21:59

Well, materials, we 3d printed.

Speaker 2: 22:01

Initially we started off using carbon fiber because in cycling especially, carbon fiber is like why did sexy? It's stiff. Yeah, we find that by going to 3d printing the devices and as stiff as a word of carbon fiber, they're still fairly rigid because we do brace them and by 3d printing weekend put thicknesses and stiffen up in different regions. So we do brace the orthotic to give it a little bit more stiffness, we do make it thinner than we would for running orthotic but then brace it in the areas that require the support and that means that the whole orthotic doesn't have to be that thick, reduces the weight of the orthotic, it's slightly more flexible. But the amount of support that we get we get by being able to contour that by using our design software and getting that shape really hugging and pushing into the right area of the foot and then 3d printing, whereas if I was trying to vacuum press that shape it'd be really difficult, you'd get folding, you wouldn't get the same sense, you wouldn't get the same case of correction and design, consistency and repeatability.

Speaker 1: 23:18

If.

Speaker 2: 23:18

I wanted to make a remake for the cyclist. It'll always come that slot different because of the amount of wrapping that we had to do, Whereas with 3d printing, if I want to put side in a knot, I could tie the knot and reproduce it a million times over the same time.

Speaker 1: 23:35

So we were talking about stiffness issues earlier. So the material does that have to be stiffer on the bike?

Speaker 2: 23:44

The orthotic material no it's actually stiffer in the appropriate areas. So we stiffen up the regions that require the support and those that don't.

Speaker 2: 23:54

For example, in the forefoot under the methoids, where we stick a small methoid to separate the methoids a little bit more, because that's where all the weight is. We find that for 99.9% of people works really well. There's probably 0.1% of the population that don't like that. But that part of the orthotic is thinner than the rest and it's stiffen up more in the areas of your telomavicular freefoot area where we do want that extra support.

Speaker 1: 24:21

Yeah, okay. So there's lots of different things to consider there, and is there much evidence out there that we can change the power at all? We are working on it.

Speaker 2: 24:35

There's no evidence at the moment, but we are working on it at the moment. I'm hoping in the next 6-12 months time we will have something. I was actually on a fun call today with a biomechanist who is going to help us achieve that. Okay, Hopefully, shall we.

Speaker 1: 24:53

Yeah, because people are going to ask can we really change a bit of? I suppose what you're doing is getting that qualitative feedback from the teams that you're working with.

Speaker 2: 25:02

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 25:03

So you remodel and change things along the way, which obviously must be quite easy with the scanning and 3D printing as well.

Speaker 2: 25:13

And the design. Yes, Now, when you're getting from messages from guys that ride the Grand Tourist and National Champion, same. I've won the orthotics for two weeks now and I've just got my best power for 20 minutes for the last three years. Yeah, perfect it's anecdotal evidence, it's practical, and it's not just one. We hear that every second time somebody gets there, so it's clearly making some difference there.

Speaker 1: 25:47

We love the real life experience, especially on this show too.

Speaker 2: 25:53

My saying is that the race circuit is our testing laboratory.

Speaker 1: 25:58

Yeah, that's well, why not yeah?

Speaker 2: 26:00

exactly.

Speaker 1: 26:00

Well, it's not. I mean, we can all do something for running or walking, but it's not until you walk and run and you actually know exactly what's going to happen.

Speaker 2: 26:09

Exactly and hence why we sponsored the teams in the early days to be able to get that feedback in the early days and make sure that we are on the right track.

Speaker 1: 26:17

Sure, but like running, although you may not have the ground reaction force on the bike, there is obviously huge pressure and huge loading when someone's pushing, and it's so repetitive this has got to be like till a millimeter, fine tuned, made up and modified to be perfect.

Speaker 2: 26:38

It's probably even more so than running, because we're running, you know the right surface changes that we came up, the right surface changes and the way you place your foot can change, whereas we, cycling, it's the same all the time, same. You can get out of the seat and so forth, but 90% of the time it'll be the same, Particularly in road racing you know, mountain bike riding, cyclocross, all those sort of things where positioning of your body changes all the time.

Speaker 1: 27:05

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:06

There's a little bit different. We're still getting the benefits from it, from a better alignment, but in road racing and time traveling, where it's just straight lined, you know the same thing over and over again. It makes a huge difference.

Speaker 1: 27:20

Perfect. So you know you can get your shoes out, sort of orthoses out, and don't worry about what frame you're riding or what color you're wearing.

Speaker 2: 27:28

I read Zawis Pass, though, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 27:32

Oh, that's it. The one thing about materials. I suppose the cycling industry has been at a forefront and a cutting edge of materials when it comes to, you know, hardware. We've seen so many changes over the decades.

Speaker 2: 27:51

Yeah, when you know still started when I was bike racing I mean still was it you know you had Columbus TSX and SLX and things like that different tubing and whereas then around that time Titanium started coming in, being the lightweight and stiff you know it was a little bit lighter weight and steel.

Speaker 1: 28:10

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:11

And then shortly thereafter it was an uncubbing fiber, you know, and initially there was a joke that one of the biggest manufacturers of carbon fiber bikes. Initially they had a factory in Asia and there was a factory twice the size next door where they were re gluing all the broken ones together.

Speaker 1: 28:27

Oh, thank you. Tell me with that, with talking about materials, has this been a real area of interest or fascination for you being in the industry, being an authentic manufacturer and a cyclist in and working in the cycling industry, I imagine this being so dynamic for you.

Speaker 2: 28:48

First and foremost and there was a massive shift for us about five years ago We've always used I mean, I came into the industry in the early 90s and it was then when I never really worked with her Polypropylene was really the first one and I still remember you telling me that I could press a better finish and making me redo it. I could get a shiny finish because I overheated it and thank you for that. You've put me on the right path. Polypropylene was it. We were vacuum pressing it and then we tried to get more efficient in the manufacturing and we went to CNC machining and again polypropylene, but there was so much waste and probably about six, seven years ago, maybe eight years ago, 3d printing started to re-release it and show itself and finally, hewlett Backup came out with machines that could actually do a really good finish on a scalable platform where you could actually do mass production, and we hatched our bets in 2018 and for 3D printing and flick the switch and went from 90 tonnes of waste of plastic to pretty much no waste.

Speaker 1: 30:05

So this is one of the benefits of the 3D printers is the 360 recyclability of it, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 30:14

Well, exactly, but there is no waste. It's what they call additive manufacturing. So with additive manufacturing you only use what you add to it, so you're building up from the material, whereas with CNC machining it's subtractive. So you've got a chunk of plastic and you cut out. Everything else is waste. So, if you can imagine, you have a block of plastic that's 35mm high and you've got a 3mm orthotic in there. Everything else around it is waste, so you cut 3mm sheet out of that, out of that 35mm. Everything else you throw away. It was recycled, but the carbon footprint, the greenhouse effect, from one producing it from a non-renewable resource being oil polypropylene, to now 3D printing with no waste and using a plant-based material which can be harvested and harvested 4 times a year and grows in a desert. It's a weed. The change for us and the impacts on global environment is just massive.

Speaker 1: 31:24

So the material the printer uses comes from a renewable source? Is what you're saying?

Speaker 2: 31:31

It comes from a plant which grows in a desert, grows in and can be harvested 3 or 4 times a year. It's actually a weed, so it's a very much renewable resource, which is there are cheaper materials that we print from. But we strictly went down that line that we wanted to make a difference, not just to make a cheaper product. It would give us the same shape product.

Speaker 1: 32:03

I can tell you now, for every practitioner listening, this is huge incentive because I think this industry has been well, probably unknowingly, but atrocious as far as waste and non-biodegradable materials and basically just landfill materials. If we have something that can go back into the system or doesn't produce any waste, or the waste goes back into the printer or whatever. That's incredible.

Speaker 2: 32:32

We've still got to work out what happens to the orthotics once they're not used, worn out and so forth, but that's all coming. We're definitely working on that angle of it as well. You have companies like the Swiss running shoe company with Roger Federer as involved with it. They've got a subscription model now using the same material where the whole shoe is 3D printed. Then, once every three months, whatever your subscription model is, you send the worn out shoe back. They recycle it, scrunch it up, reuse it and then send you a new pair. Don't film the same material that's been recycled.

Speaker 1: 33:10

I do know there's that capacity. Nike were doing it with 30 million pairs of shoes a year. Not just there's any shoe. This goes back like 15 years ago though, doing it in America 30 million pairs of running shoes a year. People take the shoes to a box in a shoe store, no matter what the brand. They would mill up the upper and the upper gets used. To add a collaboration with AstroTurf. The foams get milled up and they go into playground tiles and other apparatuses, and the rubbers were making tennis courts and athletic tracks out of the outsoles. It's been around for a long time. I'm sure that you being a manufacturer there has to be some way of milling up the already 3D printed device from the renewable source and putting that back into the system. There has to be some way.

Speaker 2: 34:04

I'm sure there is, and it's again something that we're working on, but that's going to be five, six shoes down a track with people. Orthotics wear out, they crack. Eventually there is wear and tear on any product that you put under your foot because of body weight, just like a shoe is when they start coming back. So this is something that we are definitely looking into and working on to have an answer for that when that time comes.

Speaker 2: 34:29

So I look on Visager model where if you send your orthotics back as an incentive, you'll be able to get a small percentage discount on a new pair to incentivize that model.

Speaker 1: 34:45

So for anyone listening, this is blatant self promotion on my other show, the Champion Within, but it's applicable and it's really interesting to listen to. On the Champion Within show I spoke to Lee May, who was a former Alexander McQueen designer and he operates doing bespoke denim. Now we were talking about how, with textile waste Australians fill Sydney Harbour annually with textile waste and we were talking about design and denim and what goes into it. But we were talking about sustainability and really what we came to was it's all about changing behavior, of not purchasing, thinking about what you are purchasing, where it goes and the volumes that I suppose the consumers take home and then where they end up. And I think there was a paper that showed that People between the age of 15 and 25 consider that if a garment has been worn two or three times, it's old.

Speaker 1: 35:52

Let's get a new cycling outfit, because I've worn that one for a few weeks or whatever. So it's quite incredible. So I think it's quite amazing to hear that you're doing such amazing and great things when we're using renewable resources and there's zero waste in manufacturing neurothosis.

Speaker 2: 36:15

Yeah, there's pretty much zero waste when we manufacture the shell. You still get the off cuts from when you're doing the top covers and materials like that, but, just like yourself, one of the things that we are looking at is how that material can be used in what you've already mentioned people that produce playgrounds and pushing materials for tennis courts, etc. So we are talking to people that will be able to take and utilize that byproduct instead of it ending up as landfill waste.

Speaker 1: 36:51

Yeah, it's an interesting discussion to have, isn't it? People just got to be much more aware.

Speaker 2: 36:57

Look, we're at a stage of our business where for the first 30 years, I always had down, bum up making orthotics, now that the first 20 years my hand was stuck in a bucket of plaster mixing plaster. So now, as the business grows and we get smarter and we're all computerized and we have great staff with a fantastic team, now I'm able to. My roles changed immensely as well. I'm no longer involved in running the business. We have a team that does it. My job is new product development and partnership engagement. So we're now partnering with other labs around the world using our technology as a buy into the partnership. So we've done that in New Zealand with Ganyli orthotics. We're partners in that business with Tim. We've helped him transition to 3D printing, just like we have. And now we're in a negotiation with a lab in the UK of Ireland, firefly, doing exactly the same thing. We'll help him transition into 3D printing from a polypropylene milled machine type of product.

Speaker 1: 38:12

So if we can have all these positives come out of our industry but go global, that's clearly the next level.

Speaker 2: 38:20

It is so good.

Speaker 2: 38:22

So other things. There's a little podcast what would you say TED Talk that was done on us when we first started changed over to 3D printing. The engineer that helped to set up our first machine, from Spain, from Hill and Packard, did a TED talk in Paris TEDx, and he talked about what does 3D printing mean to global manufacturing, where a product can be designed in one part of the world but manufactured, rather than manufactured in Melbourne, having been shipped to London, it can be designed in Melbourne but then printed in the UK, shipped local. For us. Amul had a number of clinics that were supplying in London before COVID, but since COVID the cost of transporting those goods has quadrupled. You're not more so. By partnering with those labs around the world, it allows us to keep our orthotics and our design side, offer those orthotics to those podiatrists but haven't produced locally and then not incurring the cost of the transportation halfway around the world.

Speaker 1: 39:28

Well, that's the thing I was just thinking about it. We're talking about the sustainable aspect of things in the CO2 waste of flying.

Speaker 2: 39:35

Exactly, exactly. So it's not just the manufacturing waste reduction, it's also all the other things added on to it which we don't see. How do we get the orthotic to the extra patient?

Speaker 2: 39:49

No, we have put our interest, Sorry, we have put our interest in Italy, who we literally supply, design street, and they have their own 3D printers and they just print the orthotics. So we literally just designed for them and they print them on site in Italy. And those guys I mean they in manufacturing, where I was literally 25, 30 years ago in a garage making orthotics. So what they think to us for is the fact that we've given them their weekends and no longer have to do plaster work Like what used to be. You know, they used to have a waiting period for their patients for three, four weeks for their orthotics, because it's looking that long that you know. Go at night on a weekend and work after spending some of their kids into the garage and do plaster work and grinding and vacuum pressing, Whereas now we designed it, have it turned around to them in 24 hours and they're 3D printed on the spot within an hour.

Speaker 1: 40:46

That's one thing that's happened is there's been such a dynamic and quick change of materials. If we consider, say, 10 or 20 years has been quick. Materials have changed rapidly but clinically we still see people come in and they've had orthoses done out of very, very old materials, both preformed and, you know, casted or scanned custom devices. It just amazes me that the amount of materials that one get used, but how there's so many materials being used that are poor and we've been using for so long and there are such amazing advances. You've got to keep up with that.

Speaker 2: 41:32

You do.

Speaker 2: 41:33

I think that's one of the challenges that the universities face, in that you know that people involved in the university aren't involved to the level that we are in the change in technology and what we're seeing is that the students coming out and even speaking to some of the people at uni and look, we're involved in a number of universities which we help out with.

Speaker 2: 41:57

But just speaking to the people involved in the process is that their understanding of what's out there is so far removed from what is actually occurring. And one of the biggest things what we found was actually the changeover from plaster casting to scanning, the accuracy involved, where people take for gospel for somebody who take a scan because you can take a scan on an iPhone, but what they don't see is what that scan actually looks like in real life and what we have to deal with. How much has it reduced? And it may look sexy on Instagram when you see the feeds and saying we've got a nice great scan out of it, but you're trying to design an authority out of it because the scaling isn't done properly. The authority call of a sudden is 20% too small.

Speaker 1: 42:46

So the quality of the scan is crucial.

Speaker 2: 42:50

Oh, that's the first and foremost. And even if you get the right scanning methodology, where it's to the same ratio and it's the right size, if you take a plaster cast and it collapses on you. When you take a plaster cast, it all falls on you because you've taken it off too early or you haven't drained the water from it, haven't massaged it properly. Robert lucky to love it, used to tell me. And if you don't get to do that with the scanning, so the scanning quite often can be very poor, but the podiatrist doesn't get to hold it in their hand.

Speaker 1: 43:26

It's like yeah that's fine.

Speaker 2: 43:27

I'll take a scan, upload it. So another thing that we're working on on our scanning app is the ability to rate the quality of the scan. It's like when you put a password in on a website or whoever tells you the strength of the password. We'll have the same quality indicator for a scan, saying it's good enough. And one of the questions that we get from podiatrists is every now and then it's a service that we offer is can I see the design before you send it to manufacturer, before you send it to print? And it's a service that we offer, so we'll leave out, take a video, a screenshot, or take some still images of the, send it to the podiatrist so they can see how it contours, the scan and the food and so forth. So one of the things that we're going to offer we're working on with our software is that podiatrists will be able to see that design on the portal when they upload the order. I think that's crucial.

Speaker 1: 44:25

I think that's so important to see in your rooms. Obviously very impressive for the patient, but to see exactly what's happening in the middle there.

Speaker 2: 44:33

That's something that we're working on, and then they'll be able to change it and it will adjust and so forth, but one of the critical things that will have to happen is the quality of scan will have to be none out of 10 at a minimum. Okay, you know so. So what do you mean by that?

Speaker 1: 44:49

There's quality of the scan.

Speaker 2: 44:52

Oh, you know we can get light effects, the scan so most podiatrists will be using these days use what's called a structure sensor, which is a scanner that attaches to an iPad, which are fantastic if you use it properly, just like anything. You know, there are others, also involved with other products, where you can scan directly from an iPhone, and there's a lot of problems with that. The issue with that technology is that an iPhone wasn't developed to scan a pod. The camera was developed to do a million other things, and scanning a pod is 0.001% of the business that Apple would get from it, so they're not going to spend money on that. You know the camera on an iPhone was to be held 20 centimeters away from your face for face ID, whereas if you're scanning a pod, you're half a meter away, so the depth is already different. So the hardware is going to be different.

Speaker 2: 45:55

The model changes between different phones, scalability changes, and if you have an app that's going to react different one different model iPhones, then you develop an app for yourself. Apple doesn't does an iOS update and screws up your app Right, so all those sort of things come into it, which is something that we can't control as much as we try to, but if the pod artist doesn't do iOS updates or doesn't update the app regularly when they're supposed to, things might match up. So there's scalability issues there.

Speaker 1: 46:28

So what about the actual use of the scanner? There must be very particular ways of scanning the foot. So you get this, you know, almost perfect image or contour.

Speaker 2: 46:40

It's almost. It's almost like rendering or like painting or spray painting. So you know smooth as well. It is fairly basic but it's also very easy to stuff up. You know and we obviously run pod artist through how we should scan. We have videos on that as well and we update those on a regular basis when things change. But it is a simple process. It's a quick process. It's made the job of manufacturing easier, but it's also made more difficult.

Speaker 2: 47:14

There's a lot more educated guesswork that I have to take, because you know there's a chunk of the heel missing and I'll go OK, it should finish around there, and then I'm calculating that we manufacture, you know, in the hundreds every day and design in the hundreds every day. So we have a good understanding of what should be when. Yeah, however, you know, if we get a great scan, we can guarantee you're going to get a greater photo. And one of the things that happens if there's a piece of scan missing, the border around the scan, where it's missing, starts getting jagged and edgy, because the software starts edging. Where should I finish? You see that collapsing or expanding. So it expands. Now you say, is that a part of the foot or is it something that the software did in render. You know, and you can make a difference. Three or four millimeters in width.

Speaker 1: 48:05

Right.

Speaker 2: 48:06

To the scan. It's like well, is that? Someone got actually a lesion there, or was that? An actual scan, scan error, so to having something really, really smooth. It is makes such a difference to us in manufacturing and design.

Speaker 1: 48:23

But it's got to be the user. The user dictates equality, definitely, definitely. And smooth is what you just mentioned. Slow and smooth, yes, yeah, ok.

Speaker 2: 48:34

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:34

Already fantastic. Hey, I've got to thank you for coming on the show. You and I have spoken a lot recently and I'm really grateful for your time. I know you're super busy, but you have never busy enough for you, Jason.

Speaker 1: 48:49

You've had a remarkable influence on our industry and clearly, from talking to you, it's a bit more than just local and it's national and global and having a massive impact in the way people think about how to do things, such as materials and renewable materials. But you have been a visionary and, to be honest, I can't remember teaching you, but hopefully it helped a little bit, because you've helped everyone here.

Speaker 2: 49:17

OK, so I can tell you my vision of you and feedback. My vision of you teaching me and telling me my authentic finish wasn't good enough. Is you sitting with that grinding room at La Trobe at Lincoln, so La Trobe in Abbey's bed, and there was a little room where you step down as a couple of benches in there you sitting on the bench icing your teeth post or Achilles and telling me, and telling me that I should repress it so I can get a better finish.

Speaker 1: 49:48

Right Now. I think you might have told me this once. You've just reminded me. But near enough was not good enough.

Speaker 2: 49:54

I think that's what your comment back was.

Speaker 1: 49:57

And that's been a mantra, I think, for you and your authentic manufacture of years when I first started, started the business went into business.

Speaker 2: 50:09

I don't promise things you can't deliver. If you're going to do something good, probably otherwise live it to somebody else. My motto is we always want to be the best at what we do. If we can do, if we strive to do that, we can't go wrong.

Speaker 1: 50:23

Well, that's being considerate of people. If you can't deliver and do it right, don't do it yeah.

Speaker 2: 50:29

We're in the service industry, we look after people, and you cannot afford to stay and guess yourself or guess If you don't know it. Get advice. Yeah, and that's probably a bit of advice. And I hear you say that about mentoring on your podcast all the time. You know mentoring young people and that's probably the biggest thing that I can advise somebody young starting out. Find yourself someone who has done it and listen to him.

Speaker 1: 51:00

You can hear the talk, but you've got to have a mentor that really has walked it and done it.

Speaker 2: 51:04

Yes, yeah, he's got the runs on the board. Yeah, we talk about this with.

Speaker 1: 51:09

You know athletics all the time, it's no different. You can have a coach or parent or a mentor, someone on the side who you know hasn't really experienced what goes down as being an athlete or whatever, so you need someone who's actually walked it for sure. Hey, thanks for me for joining me. I really liked it. Fantastic time, my absolute pleasure. Huge input to this show and everybody's thoughts, hopefully. So thanks a million.

Speaker 2: 51:37

No problem.

Speaker 1: 51:37

Jess. Thanks for listening Such an informative episode without her. I hope that assists in understanding more regarding podiatrion, cycling and use of orthosis. More episodes on orthosis in clinical practice are coming up in the next few weeks. Please check the show notes for details on today's episode and links. You can follow and support the show from the show notes. Thanks again for tuning in and I'll be with you again shortly.