A Life in Six Songs

Ep. 16 - Phil Mayo: Our Stories are Incomplete Journeys

• A Life in Six Songs Podcast • Season 2 • Episode 16

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On this episode, we sit down with Phil Mayo, a preservation tradesman, Marine Corps veteran, philosopher, husband, and dad. Phil shares his honest life story through 6 songs, from GZA’s “4th Chamber” to De La Soul’s “The Magic Number.” Through the songs “Secret of the Easy Yoke” by Pedro the Lion and “Bruised Orange (Chain of Sorrow)” by John Prine, Phil walks us through his military trauma, loss of faith, and healing journey. He also takes us on a journey through the joys and struggles of love and relationships with the songs “Flowers In Your Hair” by The Lumineers and  “For the Sake of the Song” by Townes Van Zandt. Our conversation highlights the pure, raw experience of being alive and how all of our stories are incomplete journeys still being written.    

Follow your hosts David, Raza, and Carolina every other week as they embark on an epic adventure to find the songs that are stuck to us like audible tattoos that tell the story of who we are and where we’ve been, to help us figure out where we’re going. It’s a life story told through 6 songs.

 

WHO WE ARE

DAVID: Creator & Host @ALifeinSixSongs
Drummer | Educator | Philosopher | Combat Veteran | PTSD Advocate

CAROLINA: Co-Host @ALifeinSixSongs
Storyteller | Professional Facilitator

RAZA: Co-Host @ALifeinSixSongs
Lawyer | Producer | Solo Project: Solamente | @razaismyname


RESOURCES & LINKS


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Copyright Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, commentary, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit or educational use tips the balance in favor of fair use. The original work played in this video has been significantly transformed for the purpose of commentary, criticism, and education.

Speaker 1:

like it has to come to that moment and you do it right. The only way, like if somebody said, oh, I can do that for you. You know, what goes off in my head is like you say that. You say that. You know. It's like when you're ordering thai hot, it looks really good on the menu. It looks like a good idea when it just says those two words on the menu you know, 12 hours later it's you say that.

Speaker 3:

Hey everybody, welcome to A Life in Six Songs. I'm your host, david Rees, and I'm joined by my co-hosts, carolina and Raza. Hey, hey, hello For those of you new to the podcast. On each episode we embark on an epic adventure with our guests to find the songs that are stuck to us like audible tattoos, that tell the story of who we are and where we've been, to help us understand where we're going. It's a life story told through six songs. We come to these conversations with love, kindness and curiosity to counter the prevalence of hate, anger and judgment we see in the world. Our guiding view with a nod to Ted Lasso is be curious, not judgmental. Our goal is that by listening to these stories, you can bring more love, kindness and curiosity into your own life. With that, let's go have a listen together.

Speaker 3:

Our guest today is Phil Mayo. Phil works in the preservation trades, restoring historic wood windows and doors. He and his family currently reside in rural Northwest Iowa where they are restoring their 1912 arts and crafts house. Earlier in his life, Phil served as an infantryman in the Marine Corps and he and I met while both pursuing graduate work in philosophy at the University of Oregon, specifically when we were together on a workshop on human rights at Oxford University. When not doing restoration work, phil enjoys gardening, bread making and writing. Phil, welcome to A Life in Six Songs. Bill, welcome to A Life in Six. Songs.

Speaker 3:

Hi, Great Thanks for being on. We're excited to get into your six songs and hear the stories attached to them. But before we get into your six, just to kind of warm us up and get going, you know what is it about music and the role it plays in your life. That's wanted you to say yes to being on this show. Like, how do you see music fitting in your life?

Speaker 1:

background, like what would politely be called a high control group, and I think one of the things about that like all of our worship services and everything like that like there was always singing and so and my mom played piano, my dad played guitar and oftentimes in these small churches, like the worship team is the husband and wife pastoral team, you know. So we just kind of always had music in the house, you know, and we were singing at church all the time and things like that and so like that was, it's always been a part of my life but because of the nature of like the religious beliefs, like I was never exposed as a young kid until I was like 12 or 13 to like secular music and it was just because, like I, I had some friends we'll probably talk about this with the fourth chamber song but like I had some friends and they were like all in kids that I grew up with in the neighborhood that we lived in in Chicago at the time and they were like into hip hop I grew up with in the neighborhood that we lived in in Chicago at the time and they were like into hip hop and like you're playing baseball or whatever and there's a stereo there and it gets playing and I liked it, you know what I mean. Like it resonated with me and it was something that we could all share. You know, beyond like just playing you know basketball or whatever playing you know basketball or whatever.

Speaker 1:

And from hip hop, you know, like hip hop in the 90s is like sample laden, you know, and like there are these snippets of these songs that are coming through like a piano riff or a bass riff, where you're just like what is that? What is that sound? And like my friends all knew, oh, that's Steely Dan, you know, or that's Lou Reed, you know. But my response to that, oh, that's steely dan, you know, or that's lou reed, you know. And but my response to that would be I have to go find that um right, right so not only is the hip, pop new to you.

Speaker 3:

But the things being sampled are like what is that?

Speaker 1:

and you gotta go back that is referencing that whole music history of pop music, rock music and jazz in america, like it's all being referenced in hip hop, and so that just got me in. I would hear a sample and I would have to figure out what it was and then find a way to listen to it. And then Tower Records bless their 90s soul. You could listen to anything in the store, right.

Speaker 1:

So, I would. Okay, here's this, that's where this trumpet line is from. I want to go hear that song, and so I go to Tower Records, find the CD, you know, go in the listening booth and bam and put it in. I'm not a musician, so music hasn't shaped my life in that way, but it's always been such a part of my life. In a worship service, the music is intended to give you an experience. One of the most problematic aspects of that kind of religious belief is that it's very manipulative.

Speaker 2:

problematic aspects of that kind of religious belief is like it's very manipulative.

Speaker 1:

You know the whole, the whole sequence of a worship service and then like an altar call and things like that.

Speaker 1:

So like being the sort of person who was already like primed for that, like attuned to that, and then to just be able to hear a song and have a transcendent experience like that, but just because of the way that the song sounded or how it resonates with you, or like vibes with a particular moment, um, and when you came up with the idea for this podcast, it was just like, yeah, that's a, that's, it's a great way to do two things at once, you know, to talk about, like pieces of music that are important to you in a non-critical way, and be able to talk about things in your life that might otherwise be hard to talk about, you know, and so, yeah, that like it. As soon as you came up with the idea, I was seriously like kind of fingers crossed like man dave I hope he puts me on there because it was just like it's just like I want to be a part of that. You know, like, not like I have anything important to say.

Speaker 1:

It was like that's such a good thing to like even have a record of somewhere, right, just like, like jason is bill said we talked about this in our intro phone call. Right, there's only one true story here's my life, there's yours like, let's compare, and I think this is a really cool way of doing that.

Speaker 3:

Oh, that's awesome. Thanks for the shout out for that. No, I really appreciate the way you connected that of sort of like, you know, in the church environment, sort of created that like connection to music, right, you said, and in an almost manipulative way. Right, almost in a manipulative way. Right, we've had other guests talk about that of like you know, church being their first exposure to music but at the same time being very restrictive, right, lots of musicians, right, learn to play in the church, right, they play in the church band and things like that, and then they get exposed to other stuff and boom they, you know, they blow up in ways or whatever.

Speaker 3:

And I love how the way you talked about too, of sort of being like almost like like a music kind of treasure hunter, explorer, right, hearing things, and you're like, I got to find out more, I got to find out where. That is right and that was really cool to hear. So I'm going to pass it over to Carolina and let's get right into that, that first song of yours, and hear more about it. So, carolina, what's our?

Speaker 3:

first, our first question.

Speaker 5:

Our first question is what's a song that, when you hear it, you're just instantly transported to, like a specific time or place. What's that song?

Speaker 1:

So the song is the fourth chamber, it's by the genius, or just a. He's a member of the Wu Tang clan. This is off his solo album. And, um, yeah, I, without going too much into the history and the lore of it, like there were a bunch of wu-tang solo albums right after the big album and this one just, I think everybody has their favorite one, but this one, just like, it struck me on so many levels and I had never heard anything like it.

Speaker 1:

You know, sonically, the lyricism on the album is very poetic and complex and it just really hit me. And then the thing that I think about, like, with this song, and I don't know why this memory sticks with me, but like, if you grew up in Chicago in the nineties, you rode on one of the green buses and they are different in kind from the buses that exist in Chicago now they were just, I mean, they were old, like probably from the 60s or the 70s was, when they were modern and they had, like this very sort of like, like, almost like a soft trapezoidal shape.

Speaker 1:

So the front and the back of the bus, you know, like this and the windows mimicked it and the only way the bus had air conditioning was you had to slide both of the windows like this and it created like this particular. You have to just have to have ridden on one of these buses like. If there's anybody that ever hears this that grew up in chicago in the 90s are going to go. Yes, I know exactly what he's talking about. It's like a feeling of the summer breeze and like being on one of those buses in that hard plastic seat and just like getting on after school. And it was like man my headphones, I hit the back seat of the bus, my headphones went on and I was just like somewhere else. You know, and this song in particular is just like the first verse. The story that Ghostface tells is just it's beautiful.

Speaker 3:

Let's, let's take a quick listen and go back on the bus with you. How does it feel?

Speaker 5:

to listen to it again now.

Speaker 1:

It's just insane. I don't often hear it through headphones anymore. That makes it particularly resonant. It's just, I've heard that whole first verse. I just know verbatim. I can stand at the grill and grill hamburgers and just say it Because I've heard it so much.

Speaker 1:

But it's yeah, every time I hear that song if it comes on when I'm in the shop or I just get it in my ear and have to hear it I'm just immediately in that place, like I'm on back of the bus and there's wind in my face and there's this crazy story happening in my headphones and the way that stall is. And then why is the sky blue? Why is water wet? Why did Judas rap to Romans while Jesus slept?

Speaker 1:

That's an underappreciated kind of poetry, you know, and I never heard anything like that and I could just get like once I knew I had to listen to it to get it. Then I could just, like I said, I get on the back of the bus and I was just somewhere else. I was in the middle of this story and trying to figure it out, you know. But yeah, I, ah, I love that song. It's yeah, it has. And the crazy thing about that song too is it has like the mind other than ghostface it has. Like the minor members of wu-tang on it and it it's like it's their best verses you know, people talk about this, like that song is so dope that kill a priest verse is good on it.

Speaker 1:

You know, it's like everybody, everybody just hit and the beat and it's just yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

It's so easy to go back there yeah, I love the story you you set up for us of like the school bus and and the environment on it and how like that was key and how, like the song you know puts you back there. You know, we, we buy, you know through, through doing the show and doing interviews, we, we keep identifying these sort of similarities with people, no matter where they were in the world. Or you know things like that of of these moments where music seems to kind of find us right. Whether it's driving in your parents' car, whether it's a cousin bringing an album to you or something like that or like this on the school bus, either that was your time to put your own music on and kind of be with it, or that's where you got exposed to other music, either friends or I know.

Speaker 3:

For me, in my story, it was the bus driver playing music and it was just like what is this, you know, amazing, and so I just love that of how it places, you know you right there and I think so many of us can can have that our own moment and go. Oh yeah, I remember being on the bus and here the first time I heard this artist, this type of music, whatever it might be. What was kind of like with you, how you set it up, of like being raised in sort of a very restrictive, religious, you know upbringing, and then now you're listening to like Wu Tang and things like that. What was that like for you, was it? You know? How did hearing the more popular music make you reflect on your upbringing? Was it just like, oh, there's just more out there, or was it was there like, was there any resentment to being kind of more restricted growing up?

Speaker 1:

I don't. I mean, that's an interesting question. I'm not sure I have an answer, but I'll try. I think that part of the experience was just being able to hear about something that all of the other kind of music that you're exposed to you know is not describing that reality. But, when you're a kid and you're growing up in Chicago in a neighborhood that is eaten alive with homelessness and heroin, Right Like I'm being told that there's this glorious reality, right, but the reality that I'm actually living in is reflected in these songs.

Speaker 1:

You know, like, and I think that like it took me a long time, like I lost my faith before I resented my religion, and part of the difficulty of losing my faith was that it wasn't because of resentment, you know, it was other things and it took me a while to resent it, you know, until I realized, like part of the reason you know that I had a difficult time recovering was because I still had so much of that internalized.

Speaker 1:

So I didn't like resent the restriction of the religion, because, like I had headphones, you know, and a backpack Right, and I kept my tapes, and then it was like, but they were like these two distinct realities, you know that like you had this religious reality that you lived in all the time and then you had your headphones and the bus ride, yeah, you know, and to like hear these things and be exposed to them. And then I think like past, like my sophomore year of high school, I think really I was, I was into all kinds of music, you know, like there were even christian music that I really liked, you know, bands that I listened to and things like that and like so then it just became like just part of a stoop, you know, and yeah like it got to a point where it was like the the christian hip-hop artists that I was listening to are referencing right, wu-tang and Tribe Called Quest and these other groups.

Speaker 1:

Just the way that hip-hop works. Eventually, this is all just meshing together. It's all part of the music stew.

Speaker 3:

It almost sounds like there wasn't a sort of conflict that made you have to choose. Like you said, you had your book bag and your headphones, and then church and that music and there wasn't a conflict that made you have to like, because sometimes there's stories of people who, like you, you get, you get a hold of a wu-tang tape or something like that and your parents might smash it and say don't ever do you know what I mean things like that and that forces you to have to then choose.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that that would have happened, you know, if they weren't like there was a reason they were in the backpack. You know, right, definitely like it was music that my father did not approve of. Yeah, you know, um, and that, like I said, that was heavily controlled for a long time, you know yeah, you know yeah, but yeah, I can resonate with that experience as well, you know.

Speaker 7:

I'm going to give a little anecdote, to kind of jump in here for a second, because it was so. I did not grow up in America, I grew up in Pakistan in the 80s and 90s and it's an Islamic republic, I mean it's, it's a, you know, there's a democracy of sorts and there's all sorts of things, but so over there we had access to pop culture which was always American, right. But then you always have these like undertones of religious, muslim, islamic sort of guidance. Let's just call it that sort of um, uh, guidance, let's just call it that.

Speaker 7:

So so for the religious folks, anytime they'd see kids watching um, like American, you know, tv shows, knight Rider, he-man, whatever and listening or watching MTV. It's just like, oh, those godless people, you know, don't listen to this stuff, it's all bad, it's all bad. And I guarantee you, if they, if they realized you know that a lot of that a has religious undertones as well, it would completely fucking blow their minds. They would have no idea that. Oh, you know, there's praise music and there's this and that, because the assumption was that if it has guitars, drums or samples or beats, if it sounds Western, then it has to be godless.

Speaker 5:

Oh, you mean like the idea of like Christian rock or Christian hip hop would blow their minds, because they're like what Exactly? Oh?

Speaker 7:

I see Exactly, yeah and yeah anyway.

Speaker 1:

So just quick little point there, the groups that I was in when I was really young, like before I was 12, before I was, like you know, 12 or 13, the christian groups that we were in felt the exact same way, right, like a christian rock artist or a christian hip-hop artist, like that's like the tool of the enemy, right, and they would literally that kind of language. Right, that's not glorifying to god. Right, you're glorifying the creator of rock music, or the creator of hip-hop, or you know, hip-hop is about glorifying yourself and yeah and like, the rhythms of rock and roll are bad and if you play, the record backwards.

Speaker 1:

It says staten and like right and then um once we moved to chicago I think my, my parents definitely saw like loosened up the reins, you know, on that and kind of like did not de radicalize but definitely, I think, just understood the reality of like living in the city you know Right, yeah, right and the limits like we can try and limit this, but it's a losing battle, so we just kind of have to.

Speaker 3:

yeah.

Speaker 1:

But like growing up until I was yeah, like 10 or 12 we didn't have a tv in the house you know, stuff like that. So yeah, it was pretty strict. So yeah, I it's funny like I have this. You know this similar experience to what raza is describing. You know where it's like. There is no such thing as christian rock. You know the similar experience to what Raza is describing. You know where it's like there is no such thing as Christian rock. You know if it's rock, it's just all bad.

Speaker 1:

Right, you know Um so, yeah, it's um, it's been weird, like I feel like all of the music that I've that people come to over the course of their lives you know, I I kind of came into in this compressed later period of my life, you know.

Speaker 5:

So it feels a little like this this first song is is transformative for you, but like in this good way, in this freeing way, you're on this bus and the breeze and you're like trying something new and stuff like that. So it feels kind of easy and effortless and like wonderful. For our second song we're going to pivot a little bit, because life isn't always easy and breezy and and cool. Um, so for your second song, what?

Speaker 1:

what is that song that you struggle to listen to, may, may need to turn it off, may have difficult memories associated with it so this is the secret of the easy yoke, uh, by pedro the lion, which, which is the band name for David Bazan, who grew up as a pastor's kid Like, we had very similar childhoods and he, in the early 2000s, like late 90s, formed this band, pedro the Lion.

Speaker 1:

It's like a Christian emo band but, like the lyrics were, it was always about, like he wrote songs about sex, he wrote songs about gender, he wrote songs about questioning your faith, you know, and so for, like people who were in the place of their life where I was, like, this was a form of Christian music that had not been allowed to exist, you know, like, actually, by theian music companies had you could not make, but the popularity of this band was such that, like, they were going to make the records, you know, and christian kids, and it was youth group music, you know, and um, so he wrote this song as he was losing his face, um, and there's a live version of it on youtube that you can track down, which is the last time he played the song for years and years, and years.

Speaker 1:

Somebody just shouted it out of the show. He plays it. He's like I'm never doing that again. And he only recently started playing it at at shows again, like in the last, I think, five or 10 years. But what the song is about is about the experience, of your religious experience losing its pull on you and the sort of devastation of that moment.

Speaker 3:

All right, let's take a listen and we'll talk more about it on the other side.

Speaker 6:

Some concrete motivation when the abstract could not do the same. But if all that's left is duty, I'm falling on my sword. On my sword at least.

Speaker 1:

Then I would not serve an unseen, distant Lord and the next line is someone please tell me the story of sinners ransomed from the fall, which is the gospel, right? And I just remember as a kid like I grew up in a pastor's house, right, I heard it all the time and it never ceased to touch me, right when I heard that, and I lost my faith after my second or during my second deployment, um, and like I know exactly when it happened. I remember that place, you know, and just sort of standing in the middle of like pretty extreme violence and just having this moment of realization of like we're alone, nobody there, nobody is watching this happen and doesn't care. Nobody is watching this happen and they made it happen for some higher purpose. Nobody is. We're just monkeys here and we're just shooting the shit out of each other and that's it.

Speaker 1:

And I came home and tried to go back to church for years with my first wife and there was just nothing there. It wasn't a. I don't believe this anymore. It was like that thing that held so much sway and pull on my heart, like I feel nothing.

Speaker 1:

Right, I could be listening to somebody read a book in Chinese and it would hit me in the same way. Like I feel, this feels like nothing to me and that the way that this song expresses that feeling, like he's looking at church and all of the things that used to, like, stir his heart, it's not doing it anymore. So the where he goes is like so just tell me the gospel, right? Just tell me the story about sinners ransom from the fall, because I know that that hits me. And you get to the end of the song and even that is not there, you know, and I I think that like part of it was me I can say this now. It wasn't conscious at the time, but part of it was certainly me just beginning to deconstruct my faith in the light of the experiences that I had had, like beginning to realize, like the things that I have been taught and the way that I thought reality was structured was not the way that things were.

Speaker 1:

But, also there was like the emotional loss of like these things that vitiated my life up into adulthood are gone. You know I don't feel it anymore. Yeah, up into adulthood are gone. You know I don't feel it anymore, yeah. And that that was the hard loss, right, not the loss of like the security of like a complete metaphysics, but the loss of like this thing that hit me, that gave me purpose, that gave meaning to the things I did in my life, is gone can I ask a question um?

Speaker 7:

were you guys, dave? Were you and phil deployed together? So is this you? You meant phil. You mentioned your second deployment. This is, I'm guessing. This is like post 9-11, right, and? And during that period of time, it's right in the. My second deployment, this is I'm guessing.

Speaker 1:

This is like post 9-11 right and during that period of time it's right in the. My second deployment was right in the lead up and we were the first responders to the coal bombing water. When we got there and my fire team were the security team for the divers who were doing the recovery. So the four of us participated in the recovery operations and Dave will understand like what about 6,000 pounds of C4 will do to 17 people and the aftermath of that. If you've ever been inside a Navy ship you know what it looks like. So you get a massive explosion and a massive amount of pressure and a bunch of people who have nowhere to go but into a steel bulkhead or a steel overhead.

Speaker 1:

So um a rough, gruesome scene yeah, to say the least yeah and like the smell of it never leaves my nose, I like now, I like right there, like if it's outside the door, and I just remember the second day I was there, like I was standing inside the mess deck looking out of the hole and there's just stuff like hanging from the ceiling and I it was just like nobody. There's nobody out there there's nobody out there.

Speaker 7:

They that that concept, that that loneliness concept, um is is something that, uh, I think someone referred to it as this cosmic loneliness, and I think that that you know, in reference to what is the purpose of of belief and religion and faith, it's to avoid that cosmic loneliness, because if it's not faith, if it's not god, then that there's nothing else. We're, we're alone in this and that is very, very it's a scary thought, it's the scariest thought, um, but yeah, no, that's that's I'm yeah phil.

Speaker 3:

Um, you know, you and I have have talked, and we've even done work on sort of, you know, breaking down myths around veterans and things like that, and there's stories that people tell about veterans or the experience of war and it's like, yeah, it's not always like that, and I think the story you're telling here is is one that goes against a myth or a prevalent trope out there of you know, there's no atheists and foxholes, right? This idea of when it is that bad and, like you described, we're just monkeys killing each other and stuff. When it gets that bad, that's when your faith is the strongest, and what you're saying is basically the opposite of that. That extreme experience is what kind of broke it down for you is what kind of broke it down for you? And so I was just curious if you could say maybe a little bit more about that of how you view that slogan of you know, no atheists and foxholes, or something like that, and how you view it in your own you know experience of this loss of faith.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, it didn't take me very long, like in the military, to realize like there were lots of atheists in the foxholes. But like, yeah, like I definitely have had my own experience. So I want to, I don't want to, you know, go the other way and say that this is the model Of course, veteran experience. Right, right, like I didn't know, I didn't see anybody on their knees when it was go time. You know what?

Speaker 1:

I mean um, but definitely like, and, and I think the marine corps maybe is a, you know, the marine corps culty, you know, like we believe in the marine corps, you know, and um, so, yeah, I think, like, for me, um, it was definitely that moment of it put you know this, dave, like, war is like a sort of distillation of the human experience, right, and like, when you're in the middle of it, you understand that, like, the causes of it are global poverty and the circumstances where wars occur right are circumstances where, like, extreme realities of the world that we live in are all present and that's why there's a war going on there, right? This is a place.

Speaker 1:

That has reached the boiling point, right, right, and you see the reality of the world in a clearer and different way, and I think it probably pushes people in two directions.

Speaker 1:

Some people, like Raza says, they want to have that escape. Right, tell me that there's something beyond this, because this is awful, right, my experience was there are more people like me who see this and are just like I don't know what's out there, but at very least it doesn't care. And it seems like there's nothing Right and like I, I think, rather than saying like that expression there are no atheists in foxholes is wrong. I think the thing that I want to push back against is like and it goes in with like like dave, you and I have talked about like thanking culture, right, like it's a way of like co-opting the experience of the veteran in front of you rather than just letting them have their experience of that thing you know, right, and it's like people want to ask you the question like, oh, what did you shoot somebody? Or oh, that was horrible, what was that? Like they don't want the answers to those questions, you know that.

Speaker 1:

Or the answer right, which is like you know it made me question my faith. You know they want to hear like oh, that was so terrible. It's like everybody knows it was terrible. I I'm not like. It made me lose my faith, you know Right. And like is this something we want? Are these the circumstances we should want to be putting people into? You know, if this is the price of my lifestyle, my lifestyle worth it, you know. But you like deny veterans the ability to have their personal experiences and you pretend like these experiences are monolithic in some way.

Speaker 1:

Right, and you don't people want to fit it into their own idea and own story yeah, and you don't want to have to accept that, like this person in front of you isn't like just a site of violence, like the person in front of you is the consequences of your choices. Mm. You know and like you're engaging in a behavior that keeps you from having to confront those you know. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:

My presence as a veteran, the necessity of somebody like me, should be a provocation to people. Not I want to be like that person and do what they did. But if the existence of a person like Phil right, like if the existence of that person is necessary, right, and the emotional toll that that person has to pay to go do that job is necessary for me to live the life that I have, do I need to make changes and the way we treat veterans like? Veterans have had that experience right, I've had to go somewhere and do something that made me question the foundations of who I was. But the way that we treat veterans when they come back home with, like, thanking culture and valorizing militarism and things like that keeps us from having as citizens who don't go do that job. It keeps us from having to ourselves have that experience when we're confronted with them. Having had that experience for our sake you know, yeah.

Speaker 7:

So this is a question for both veterans, I guess. Do you guys think that that that thinking culture, and and and non veterans or sort of lay people that that have not had your experience, do you think that that that that will change, like over time, they will gain an understanding? And here's the reason why I asked the question. I'm clearly not a veteran, right? I mean, and I want to ask this in a way that is, you know, with humility and not to offend anyone, but I feel like there is a sort of cyclical nature of things, like history repeats itself a lot of times. I'm a parent and I'm seeing, you know, I've got, I've got a teen son and you know, for example, if my son is considering, like college options and things like that, I'm thinking back to when my boy, dave from high school, was a gator and then this horrific, you know, historical event happened, which was nine 11, that caused him to join and enlist and, and and in a service country and things like that, and I'm seeing all sorts of turmoil now as a parent, now in, you know, in the world, um, and I'm torn between, you know, on the one hand, uh, you know, joining the military and joining the armed forces is, is, is an option for him, but he doesn't have the insight and the experience that that that people from my generation have, veterans or not, that war is. It's terrible, it. It causes all sorts of turmoil and and and and the folks that that enlist to do the right thing, the experience that they have there, that they come back with, and a lot, of, a lot of a lot of guys don't make it back Right, how do you, how do you grapple with all of that?

Speaker 7:

How do you juggle with all of that? How do you what? Which? How should the next generation like, approach all of this in in like a holistic way? I don't know a holistic way. I don't know how would you guys advise? You know people, um, lay, people, who, who, who think that you know, yeah, war is over there, go fix stuff, go blow shit up and then whatever happens happens. How do you guys reconcile that? How do you guys, you know what? What advice would you give?

Speaker 3:

I'm going to defer to phil to start, since is our guest, and then I will jump in after Phil's like damn it.

Speaker 5:

I wanted you to go first.

Speaker 3:

Unless. Phil, you want to pass the baton over to me? That's fine, I will defer to you and your choice.

Speaker 1:

The Marines always have to go first. So I mean I've had to do this for a couple of cousins and one he was like I'm had to do this for a couple of cousins and and one he was like I'm gonna go. He told his mom I want to go kill Arabs and his mom was like you need to call your cousin Phil and he was like no, I'm not gonna do that. Um, right, he has not me, but he has not joined. He has not joined up.

Speaker 1:

I think that there are aspects of my service of which I'm very proud. I mean I have it tattooed on my arm the Memorial Day events here and you know, marine Corps birthday. My buddies and I are texting one another. I that camaraderie and that brotherhood like even though, like at this point, like we have pretty intense disagreement, like political disagreements, but I know, like for the guys that I keep in touch with, if I called them they would be here, you know and like that camaraderie and that brotherhood, there are not many places where you get that you can have that in the military without having to have a combat experience experience.

Speaker 1:

I think the way that we valorize warfighting and combat experiences in this country is really problematic, like I wish that I had never seen what I saw, and it did not make me a man or a better person, it was just horrible, you know. So I think, if you're looking at it as some kind of like, if you're looking at it from the perspective of like, say like a professional athlete or like a runner, right, I'm like. This is like a like. I want to just see if I can do this Right. Can I become a? Can I make it there? Can I do that? Can I earn that and do my job for four years and become a fricking fuel technician or whatever like for four years and become a freaking fuel technician or whatever like, where you can come out with skills.

Speaker 1:

It's a perfectly viable path and they will do that for you and you'll come out of that with you know, having understood things that will serve you while later in life, about initiative and camaraderie and loyalty and honor and what those things really mean. If you're going into it with a mindset that you have to prove yourself in some way through the test of combat, the experience for you is not going to be good. The jobs that you're going to have are going to be the jobs that do that and I'm very proud of being a Marine. You know, one of the reasons I don't I don't like being thanked on top of the things that we've already talked about is like I'm a Marine. I don't need somebody to validate that experience for me. I was there.

Speaker 1:

I did it. They put an Eagle Globe and anchor in my hand on top of the big hill that we hiked up. You know, like I was in boot camp. I got thrashed by Staff Sergeant Halkovich every day. Every day I was there.

Speaker 1:

I don't need somebody to validate that experience for me. So I'm very, I'm intensely proud of it. I'm protective of it, but, like everything else in my life, I'm critical of it and I reserve the right to be critical of it and to tell people like there's a right and wrong reason to do this, and the experience that you have, to a large degree, is going to be dictated by those reasons, by why you're doing it and what you're doing it for. You know, I wanted I need a money for college, right, so that was like. And I was going nowhere in the life that I was living, so it was like, why don't we do this? Flip side of that also was like well, if I'm going to join the military, I'm going to join the hardest branch. And if I'm going to join the hardest branch, I'm going to be in the infantry. I had the asvab score to do what I wanted and I chose to be an infantryman.

Speaker 1:

And my recruiter told me to my face I was was a fucking moron. Yeah, he's like you could. He's like you could go work in the air wing. He's like they'll put you in Hawaii for four years. I was like no, this is what I want to do. And he's like you're a fucking moron. And he signed the thing and off I went. You know, but yeah, but yeah.

Speaker 1:

So I think to answer I hope that answers your question. Rather, it's like your motivations for doing it and the choices you make about what you're going to do when you're there dictate the kind of experience that you're going to have. You know, and certainly some things are beyond your control. You know you might sign up for the air wing and you end up in ordnance tech and you're going to be living in the desert for a while, but you're also going to be on an air force base that isn't within range of anything that they've got. You know, um, but you're going to be deployed and you're going to have a hard. You're going to have a hard time, you know but, I think it.

Speaker 1:

It depends on your like I said, your motivations and what you choose to do when you get there. I would never tell anybody that wasn't. If you're like I want to go kill people, I'm going to tell you, like, don't do this, because even if you get to do that, you're going to be disappointed. But if people have other legitimate, you know I want them to pay for law school. Okay, good, jag Corps sucks and those dudes are dicks, but I'll pay for your law school, you know Right.

Speaker 7:

So it's yeah, it's what you make of. It is what it sounds like.

Speaker 1:

It's what you make of it and why you're doing it, you know, and it's just like college, you know. If you choose to become a philosophy major. This is what you make of it and why you're doing it. It's just like college If you choose to become a philosophy major. This is what you're going to end up doing.

Speaker 7:

I appreciate that. That's really good perspective.

Speaker 3:

I pretty much agree with everything Phil said. I feel the same way, especially the thing about motivations and what your motivation is to go. I think a lot of us join for fucked up reasons. Right, we're trying to fill some kind of void. We're trying to overcome some previous trauma, some kind of void. We're trying to overcome some previous trauma. We're trying to, like Phil said, not prove something to ourself, necessarily that I can do it, but prove something to other people. We're trying to. I'm tough enough, I'm man enough, I'm big enough, whatever it might be. And so I think motivation is huge.

Speaker 3:

I also think, in the US context, as long as the you know, in the US context, as long as the US is the you know global hegemon and you know militarism and military bases everywhere, and we want to keep a volunteer military, there's going to be that valorization that happens. And when you have that, you're going to have people that are motivated to join to live up to that. You're going to have people that are motivated to join to live up to that and with that there, I don't think there's much you can say to somebody who's that's going to dissuade them. Right, I know with me when I was there, phil's story is perfect, right? You know I had graduated from college and went and enlisted and you know my ASVAB score, which is the test they give you, that, based on how you score on in certain areas, qualifies you for certain jobs, right? So if you want to be a linguist or a translator, right, you've got to have a higher score because that's hard to do. If you want to be an infantryman, and pull the trigger, you just have to be breathing, basically right. And they're like okay, come on, and my score was off the top of qualified for whatever job I wanted, and I'm like I want to be airborne, infantry at the 82nd Airborne, because that's, to me, was like that's what it means to join. I'm like.

Speaker 3:

I remember saying I'm like I don't want to join the military and sit behind a computer. I can do that outside. Well, my reasons were not necessarily pure and I'm learning through my journey and my healing stuff of all the things that went into my decision. But you know there's nothing anyone could have said to me that would have dissuaded me from joining. Right, if I had an Uncle Phil who, you know, my parents were like well, go talk to Uncle Phil, and you know he's been there and he can tell you that it wouldn't have dissuaded me because I was just been like, well, I need to experience it for myself. And so I've struggled with that of like.

Speaker 3:

If someone comes to talk to me and like, hey, should I join or not? You know it's, it's tough Cause I don't think there's much I can say that can dissuade them. If they're going for certain reasons, yeah, but I think it comes down to a lot of motivations and I would as much as possible, like Phil said, encourage them and try and steer them into not just going for the one that thinks that they're going to be heroic and all of that, but something more practical where they can gain the life experiences and different things. But again, even that, if you tell somebody that that's going for this glorification side, that's just going to make them want to join the infantry or go Navy SEALs, special Forces, even more, because they're like no, the whole reason I'm doing this is because I don't want to be the practical. I want to be this mythical kind of hero Warrior. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I don't regret it. I certainly wish that there were a lot of things I had done differently, but I don't as hard of days as I have had. I have never had a day where I thought I shouldn't have done that.

Speaker 1:

I should have done something different, yeah, same here, in ways, like you know, I don't regret it and like there's definitely a deep part of me where it's like when I say I love the Marine Corps, I mean I love the Marine Corps, you know, and it changed my life, you know, and I think in some ways that have really served me well and helped me.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would say on my side like I don't regret it, the experiences, cause that's made me part of who I am today and to have the discussions and you know, met you, you know, after the military, but we connected over that, right, and so all these things that happened from it. I think for me it's a little bit more of again going back to the motivations of like, what else could I have done if I didn't go do that Right, what did I give up on? You know what I mean and things like that. But again, that's that's with any decision you make on everything right, the opportunity cost of like, well, what else could I have done?

Speaker 5:

So yeah, I'm going to take us, to take us to our next song, because one, I think, a thread we've noticed with a lot of our guests are how music gets us through transitions in life. You know we all have chapters where we move from one thing to another. And so, for your next song, question here is which song do you associate with a particularly weighty transition in your life?

Speaker 1:

so this song is pain of sorrow. It's also called the bruised orange song by john prine, who I still think is probably my favorite american songwriter. Um and um the the song is about. He read this story in a newspaper about this young boy who worked at a church. He was like crossing, I think, the the railroad tracks and he got hit by a car or the train. I can't remember exactly the story. He tells it in this, but he had read this article and found out that, like, the person who hit the boy who had been coming from the church was a parishioner of the church, right. And so it's like this completely internal tragedy.

Speaker 1:

And then the chorus talks about how, like you have these horrible things that happen to you in your life, you have these traumatic experiences, experiences and you can grow angry and you can grow bitter over these things, or you can understand how, if you do that or if you have done that, it like leaves a mark on you, right. He says the heart stained in anger. And that song I mean. Well, I imagine we'll talk about it afterwards, but it just really resonates with me because it took me a long time to go to therapy and to begin to try to unpack what had happened, and I think that I uncovered just so much anger, right Like this deep well of anger, right like this deep well of anger, and I've spent, I think, the rest of my life sort of understanding how that has marked everything you know, and how how deeply like bitterness can go, you know so yeah, let's take a listen and we'll hear more about it on the other side. Say what does it matter?

Speaker 1:

But it don't do no good to get angry, so help me. I know.

Speaker 6:

For a heart staining. Anger grows a week and grows bitter.

Speaker 4:

You become your own prisoner as you watch yourself sit there wrapped up in a trap of your very own chain of sorrow.

Speaker 5:

I don't know the song, but just that line I think. As David's gone through a healing journey, you've gone through a healing journey. I've gone through a healing journey from some other trauma, it kind of resonates with that line like pain demands to be felt. And if you don't, bad stuff happens.

Speaker 1:

I mean you scar yourself, right, like you. You, I remember when we were in the Marinesines we were doing a training rotation, I jumped out of the back of the amtrak and whacked my shin on the metal hatch and stayed out in the field for whenever we were out there a few weeks and came back and, like, my leg is still hurting. So I go to the bas and I'm like you know, I banged my leg on the track and they take an x-ray and the doctor's like, oh yeah, do you see this little white line on the front of your shin bone? I said, yeah, he goes, that's a stress fracture. He's like, how long have you been walking around on this? Like I don't know six or eight weeks. He just takes the test.

Speaker 1:

Wow, I think that, like, um, like anger and bitterness operate that same way. Right, you don't treat things or deal with them that first, right, you don't feel pain, you squash it down. You squash it down. It makes scars, tissue and that hurts too. You know, and it's just something that you're going to have to deal with later. You know, and it's just something that you're going to have to deal with later. And I get shin splints in that stupid leg all the time when I run and I have to do all this extra stretching because I was a moron when I was 22. And I think that like yeah, it's that, and I still fall victim to this. You know, like, even like the whole period of time when we had to leave Detroit was super, super painful for Ann and I that you stop hoping for anything to be better and it just like you're going to have to work through that later on. Like, even when things do get better, you're going to be left with this well of anger and resentment that now you're going to have to deal with because you didn't like you said Carolina, like you didn't feel the pain when it wanted to be felt. So now you, now you have to do this. You know, and tap into this.

Speaker 1:

You know, and it's so easy in those moments, I think, to like just like you know, the line says like you get wrapped up in a trap of your very own chain of sorrows, right that you can list this litany of reasons why I'm not gonna feel good. You know, I'm mad, something made me mad and I'm just gonna like tunnel down. You know, and honestly, that still to this day, is the biggest part of my struggle is just not to like. Anger is such a easy emotion for me. You know that it's very hard to not just immediately go to that place. You know when you're stressed or when you are frustrated or you're overtired, you know to just go to that place of like fueling what you think you need to do with resentment and I think this song really speaks to that. You know you can stare out your window and get mad and get madder, throw your hands in the air and say, what does it matter? You know that's that's. That's the easiest response, I think, for me.

Speaker 1:

You know yeah and it's a constant struggle, and so the song just sort of lives in my head. Like you can indulge that feeling today, you know, but you're going to create an unpleasant environment in the house and it's going to affect your kid, it's going to affect you, it's going to affect your partner, it's going to affect the dog and eventually you're going to have to deal with that because now you made everybody's day bad, you know Right.

Speaker 3:

Right, which then cycles back into the anger yeah Right, then cycles back into the anger yeah, right. And that's like I know. You know, I think this song is such a great description of the experience of this, of you know, the you know technical term, ptsd, whatever you're gonna call it. I think this gets at it just so perfectly. Because it's this, it's this constant feedback loop. Right, like you said, you angry, so you do all this horrible shit, you snap at your kid, you, you know, mean to the dog, you're short, you do all this stuff, and then you realize you did all that and so now you're angry about doing that, and it just kind of keeps feeding itself and, like it says, it's your own chain of sorrows. It's this self feedback loop that just keeps you stuck in it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I told you know I tend to try and keep Carolina and Raza in the dark about the interviews as much as possible. I do all the prep work, I read the questionnaires and kind of develop it so they can kind of come with more fresh eyes, and as I was, you know, getting your songs ready and stuff. I told Carolina, you know, because we're married, so we live together, and so I, and so it said, hey, get ready, because as I was going through, uh, uh, you know phil's songs, I cried on like four of them right off the bat. So just be ready and stuff, and I think you know it, it just again, that pain deserves, needs to be felt, and you know this song just gets at it so much and and gets at you know what.

Speaker 3:

You know we're trying to do with this show and things like that of the music is a way to feel these things and it's an entryway, a starting point If you're not ready for therapy, if you're not feeling that yet, pay attention to some of these things and think what are you listening to? What's it telling you? What's going on there? Listening to, what's it telling you what's going on there? Um, because it's it's not weakness right to feel these things. Um, it's not a problem, you've got a muscle through, right. That's what we've been doing for too long with it right the pain deserves to be felt.

Speaker 3:

You don't have to feel it alone. There's people that can help you feel it um, so yeah, so thank you for sharing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 5:

I have a question for folks, cause this is about how music touches us right. This, this whole conversation for folks who aren't ready, maybe, like who are still sitting in the rage of it all. Do you find that, like, music will speak to you and like, clear through the rage, that, like, maybe a family member, your partner, your kid or your friend won't?

Speaker 1:

I mean, I know it does.

Speaker 1:

It does for me oftentimes, you know, um, where it's like I can be causing tension in the house and just kind of causing tension in the house and just kind of stomping around and being a bore, and come out to the shop and like a song come on, or like this song will come.

Speaker 1:

You know, john Plain is not infrequently played in my mixes and it just like convicts me, you know, and I think that, like, like Baldwin talked about this, like the the importance of great art and why we should always be afraid of a society that wants to like censor art.

Speaker 1:

Art is the only medium that we have where a person who's felt an emotion can communicate that emotion in a way that resonates immediately with everybody else that's had that emotion. Right, and I think, like the gift that John Prine gives you in this song is like he's speaking from a perspective of a person who does have a heart stained in anger. You know he's not telling you the way that your therapist might like if you engage in this behavior, it's gonna have this result. He's telling you, like I have lived this life, I have walked down those roads, you know, and they think like if somebody isn't ready, then then you're not ready and you won't get what you want or what you need out of a healing journey. But just just understand that when you're ready it's possible. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1:

I think that what I mean this is what my dissertation ended up being about or was going to be about. I didn't finish, but was this? Like? What post-traumatic stress disorder sufferers have come away with is like a moral injury. You know and Jonathan Shea is a VA psychologist who's written a lot about this and I think that like more important than telling people like go get help, it's just to tell them like it's possible.

Speaker 1:

you know and when you're ready, when you're ready to feel better, you can feel better, you know. And you don't have to have to take medication, but it might help. And you don't have to go talk to somebody about it, but it might help, you know. But just understand that it's possible. So in your low moments, when you feel like there's only one way to not feel this way anymore, understand that there's a lot of ways to not feel that way anymore. You know, and yeah, like I haven't struggled intensely with suicide, but I have gone through ideation and things like that. But for me it was drinking. I could always just drink it away. The bottom of the bottle was where peace was, but then it's like the next day it's there 10 times, but then that's why you got to drink the next day, you know, and right, it just got me into those cycles of trying to escape, rather than like telling myself in that moment where I want to get drunk, like there's more than one way to feel better than you feel right now. You know and like.

Speaker 1:

There's more than one way to not be angry. You know there's more than one way to not like continue to indulge in these cycles of self-pity that just make you angrier, and angrier, and angrier and become like self-fulfilling, like david is describing. You know, you walk around your house all day and you're intolerable. And then you're angry at the other people in your house because they don't tolerate you know it's like what's the line in?

Speaker 1:

justified, Like, if you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. You run into an asshole all day long. You are the asshole, asshole. You run into an asshole all day long. You are the asshole and and I think that way you know you get. You get stuck in these cycles. Say to somebody that's not ready.

Speaker 1:

If you're not ready, you're not ready but, it's possible, and it's possible in more than one way. There are a lot of ways to to try to do it. You know, find your combination, find your combination of things. You know it's not one thing for me and and it's not, I'm not at a place. You know like I'm on a journey away from anger and I am not away. You know, and yeah, that would be my word. Yeah.

Speaker 5:

Yeah. Well, thank you for that. For that and for sharing the song. I one of the my favorite things about this podcast is that I get exposed to all kinds of new songs and new music and new songwriters through our guests and, like I said, I just listened to one line and I was like I want to listen to more of this. John Prine dude. I really like that Pretty succinct and deep and sort of tells it the way it is.

Speaker 1:

His songs are very simple, but they're just songs about emotions that he's had, you know, so there's like a realness there.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, that's awesome, alright, we will keep chugging along here, you know, and so there's like a realness there. Yeah, that's awesome, all right, we will keep chugging along here. Oh, raza, did you have something?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, sorry Delayed thought it's okay, don't be sorry.

Speaker 7:

That's the point of the show to ask questions.

Speaker 7:

I love all the talk about, you know, music and emotion and how certain you know lines resonate for certain emotions. This is a question for Phil, for you, or you know Carolina, or Dave as well, probably for Phil, so have you guys. So I'm interested, I'm I'm interested in grief, like processing grief and the stages of grief, and and that, and I'm sure you guys are familiar with this. So there's, supposedly there's, five stages of grief, which is, you know, denial is the first one, anger, bargaining, depression and then acceptance, and supposedly it's not linear, it's you know it can go, in's not linear, it's you know it can go, and it can go sequentially, it can go in different stages, but the goal is to sort of get to the acceptance phase.

Speaker 7:

So I guess, phil, a question for you would be um, I've heard themes of sort of resentment and that that turning into anger, and so, in some of the ways of coping with those and processing that emotion, would you say that you are sort of on a journey toward acceptance? Do you feel like you're sort of there, or do you feel like that path is still ongoing there? Um, or do you do you feel like that path is still ongoing? Um, or or and and, by the way, another way of of reaching that acceptance phase is also accepting but then going back and sort of unpacking and reprocessing the other four. You know emotions, uh, from a different lens. So I don't know if you're, if you're open to commenting on sort of where in that journey you find yourself now I mean, I think it depends on like a lot of talk that you're talking like.

Speaker 1:

You know there are some things like as far as like the loss of faith, like I've that for me is processed. You know, I know how I feel about that. I'm comfortable with that. I've dealt with it. You know um the loss of that, um can I ask you yeah?

Speaker 7:

that specifically, um, did that, um. So so, thinking about loss and and trying to tie that with this grief theme you know, people usually tie grief with the loss of, like a loved one, or loss of a, of a relationship, or loss of, you know, like a human component. But to me, this idea of loss of faith is probably, you know, that encompasses this entire emotional experience as well. So if you want, yeah, I, I'd love to know about that part of it. So you mentioned, you've already sort of you've reached the acceptance phase of that.

Speaker 1:

I get. What that means for me is like the way that I grew up or the faith that I grew up with, is like it's the fundamental characteristic of who you are. It defines everything that you do. Your life is defined by participation in the rituals of it. You know praying before you eat. You know of fundamentally constitutive of who you see yourself to be, and so the loss of that is not just a like.

Speaker 1:

You know I used to believe that the Red Sox were a cursed franchise, and they're not cursed franchise anymore. It's like you're not believing in it. It's not like I don't believe in the curse of the great bambino anymore. You know it's uh, like this thing that defined who I am is gone. I don't feel it anymore. I have no idea who I am right, because now the point that I'm at is like I was defined by this thing. I don't believe that thing anymore. I can't even feel it. I can't even force the experience right. Was I fooled by my parents? You know like it destabilizes your sense of identity on every plane, and I think it's.

Speaker 1:

One of the dangers of that kind of faith is that it is so singular to a person's idea identity in a way that, like, people that don't undergo that kind of religious conditioning develop their personalities in a different way. Um, and so, like it took a long time for me not to be angry at my parents, not to be angry at things that had happened to me in my childhood, not to be angry at religious institutions. You know I'll still go out and talk about how dangerous those things are and about how the experiences that I had as a child affect me, but I'm not mad about any of that anymore, you know. But the flip side of that coin is like the gift of the Marine Corps is they make you a Marine, but the curse of it is like you're that forever, and like one of the key ways to get people to a point where they will do the things that you're asked to do is anger, you know, is giving people the ability to tap into a kind of rage.

Speaker 1:

That is just this, like your motivation, you know, and like you read your motivation, you know, and like you read, you read stories about people targeting machine gun death or sitting in the top of a humvee under fire and just taking it like, and you wonder, like, how does a person do something like that? Because they have the psychological capacity to tap into a well of rage that you can't possibly fathom, you know. But you have to break somebody psychologically to get them to that point, and so I'm not angry about that loss of faith anymore in the way that I used to be, but anger is still very much there, you know you know, yeah, no, thank you.

Speaker 7:

I mean I, I, I I appreciate you sharing that.

Speaker 3:

um, yeah, thank you yeah, I think it kind of gets at that a little bit. I know carolina's trying to move us along as we give her the task of doing and we're resisting that, but um, I have one job and that's to keep us on time.

Speaker 5:

That's right, I know I know, I'm going to pull the CEO duty. I'm the host.

Speaker 3:

I can do what I want.

Speaker 3:

You work for me, no no, but I think just just that point of, like Raza, when you were asking that question, and sort of, you know how we know, like you know, the stages of grief it's not this linear process and once you move through one you're done with it.

Speaker 3:

You kind of come back to it With what Phil was talking about. You know, once you kind of work through one thing and get to acceptance of something, it's sort of almost like you know hiking and climbing a hill you get over one hill and you're like, okay, I'm done. And you're like, oh shit, well, there's the next hill now, and I couldn't see that before, yeah. And so it's almost like you process one area of it and then that opens you to see another area and you're like, well, now I'm angry about that, and I I couldn't be angry about it before because I was so consumed by this other anger, right, um, and so, yeah, I think that's a way where it feels like you kind of come back to it in a way. It's not necessarily coming back to the same anger, but it's like cycling back. Now Is it something? Something new, in a sense, almost.

Speaker 1:

And because you've been taught how to use rage. That is always the like. Your brain knows how to go there, you know. So here's this problem. I got to work through this. I'm going to get pissed off about it.

Speaker 3:

Right, right yeah.

Speaker 5:

I mean it's they call it a journey for a reason, and like you just continue to uncover shit and then have to process that shit. And processing that means you uncover something else. And so I find people like you know in my life, who maybe don't do therapy or whatever it might be like you know, like still, or you're still like, you're still mad about that, or you're still processing. You know, and you're like because it's, it's a scab that is on top of another scab, on top of another wound. You know what I mean. Like it it really is like this this long journey. It's not a quick fix. No, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

All right Back to you, Carolina. Thanks.

Speaker 5:

Um, all right, we're going to, we're going to pivot a little bit to to just kind of daily life here, cause we've gotten into big themes so far. Um, so, for your next song, what? What's that song that's just intimately connected to to another activity? It could be a book, or a location, or a trip.

Speaker 1:

What's that song? So it's Flowers in your Hair by the Lumineers. And we went to Seattle to meet her core group of friends for a wedding and her friend Rachel sang this song at at the wedding ceremony. She just like, really simply like, play the ukulele, sang, song. Really beautiful moment and just I don't remember exactly when, but I was like pondering back on Ann and I's relationship at one point and I was looking through some pictures on my phone and I saw a picture of us at the wedding and I was like that was when I knew, like I didn't. I never thought like I'm going to marry that woman, but that was when I knew like I I love her. You know like I'm, I have an emotional connection to this person, you know, and I've been deliberately avoiding that.

Speaker 1:

And like it was just like this. Yeah, it just sticks out to me that moment of like Rachel singing that and be like being outside at the wedding and just knowing, like outside at the wedding and just knowing, like with her sitting next to me, like this is the person like that I click with you know, like not just somebody that I like or have this strong physical attraction to. It's like, there's a like we're connected. You know, and that was when I knew it, you know, was at that wedding. I, I knew that was.

Speaker 3:

That was when nice, let's take a listen. This is the lumineers actual version, not Rachel playing it on the ukulele.

Speaker 6:

I do not have access to that, here we go from mine, it's a sweet song.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, like, be in my eyes, be in my heart. Yeah, it's like just that moment of like you just feel a certain way about a person where it's like I want you to be inside of me no-transcript, yeah, it just. I don't know, it's not like I think sometimes maybe people want to chase that moment, like they just want to have it over and over again, and I definitely don't want that. But it like I think, like for me, like that was like the moment that just really solidified the relationship to me, like what it was, like what we were doing, you know which was like we're falling in love with each other, like that's what we're doing here, you know, like we've made a connection with each other and yeah yeah, like the song fits the moment.

Speaker 5:

It's just one of those serendipitous, you know things yeah, well, I think that's another theme we've found with guests on the show in particular is that you don't always look for the song. The song finds you and you're just like enjoying this wedding, and then the song just hits you in this way and you're like wait, what is happening here? Oh, oh, you know.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, what is happening here? Oh, oh, you know, yeah, I, almost, I, I, as you were talking about it before we listened, phil, I almost had that idea because you, you were saying how, like um, you know, you, you started to have this feeling and you resisted it for so long, right, and I had that connection back to the seinfeld episode where he, finally, like cries for the first time and he's like what's this salty discharge, like what, what is this? Um? And I, I had that sense, almost as you were telling the story and then listening to the song of like um, which is where, like, when I was preparing it, like, even this song, like some of the other songs like that we already listened to, brought me to tears, just because I know you, I know the stories behind it, I've been on my own journey. This one brought me to tears just in that way because of, like, I could feel it, of what you're describing, right, this thing you've like resisted, right, the anger keeps you from it and all these you know other types of things.

Speaker 3:

And then here it is just coming up and you kind of can't fight it anymore and that almost like, what's what's happening.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's like it's a spontaneous emotion, you know, and we have so few of those, you know, like unmediated emotions, that if you tried to make it happen you couldn't. You know, right, right, um, and yeah's, it's just one of those very powerful experiences that's just like burned into my brain, is like I mean, I can remember everybody else that was sitting, like in the row that we were sitting in, and I didn't know like half of them. I knew Anne and her friend Katie sitting on the other, but I didn't know anybody else. Yeah.

Speaker 5:

So what did you do with this feeling Like you're hearing this song and you're having this? Did you turn to Anne and you were like I love you, or were you like I need to sit with this for a minute? Like what did you?

Speaker 1:

do Right.

Speaker 1:

No, I don't want to reveal like too much of Anne's business. Sure, yeah, she was. I don't want to reveal too much of Anne's business, sure Fair, she was. Like the night that we met one of the first things Anne said to me was like I'm moving to Detroit when I graduate and don't get in my way. And I was like okay, fine, but pursued the relationship anyway. But pursued the relationship anyway. But kind of the mantra of our relationship was like I had told her at one point, like if all I have is six months and then you're gone then I'll take six months, because six months of you is worth it to me, even if it means, at the end of it, like my heart is broken, like I'll accept that.

Speaker 1:

You know, like by that point I had read enough nicha that I thought I knew what I'm more fati meant, and so I was like, yeah, I can do, I can say, yes, come on, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So, um, I just told her, like if, if it's six months, it's six months, you know. And I think in that moment, like I knew I wanted more than six months, but I knew, like if that was all it was gonna be, like I had gotten to have this you know what I mean and like it wasn't a feeling, in that moment, of like I just have to grab onto this person and hold them and like possess them, but it was more like just in an unmediated way, just feeling that connection to another person. You know, like feeling how good that moment felt. You know, like Vonnegut tells this story and he says you know, at the end of it we turned to each other and said, wasn't this nice? And he goes. I think whenever you have a moment in your life that's really, really nice, you should just turn around and say to everybody that's enjoying it with you.

Speaker 1:

If this isn't nice, I don't know what is, because it's like you have to like, and so it was just like allowing myself to have that feeling completely in that moment and just like, actually know, like I love this person, you know and like if we get to be together, then we get to be together, but I just don't even care about that. Right now it's like we are together and I love her and like let's have this moment.

Speaker 3:

You know, nice Right. So almost like a radical presence of it, of like so often, when we feel something, think something or whatever, we automatically jump to. What do I do with this? What's the next course of action? And what you're sort of saying is you didn't jump right to that, it was more just an appreciation of the feeling in the moment and an awareness of it, rather than what does this mean Now? What do I do? Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. And just like letting that moment be exactly what it was and not reading anything else into it. You know no future. No, this is what's going to happen next.

Speaker 7:

Just like we're here and we feel this right now, and let's just feel it right now yeah, that's the idea of uh, sitting with it like sitting with the emotion, not doing anything with it, but just just sit with it and that's all.

Speaker 1:

I think a lot of times we focus sitting with pain but, we don't sit with happiness, it's true, if you have a moment that is like I remember when the Cubs won the world series in 2016,. That's something I never thought I would see in my life and when they made the last out, I didn't like jump up and scream, or I was by myself in our apartment in Detroit. I just sat on the couch and just like in silence, just soaked in that feeling, like I never want to forget this exact moment and I don't want anything else in the way of it. You know, and I think, like so few times do we take the time to just like sit with an incredible moment of love or fulfillment or, I don't know, a good state like you know, like these, these little moments of happiness, you know, yeah, and maybe they're little because we don't sit with them right yeah, because even the happy times, like we want to take a picture of it or call someone or like we don't just like sit in it.

Speaker 5:

It's interesting I went to a concert recently at a smaller venue, at the Ryman amphitheater, which is a very, very small venue here in Nashville, and I remember saying I don't know if it was the band or the night or whatever it was, but it was the one concert I had been to where everyone wasn't on their phones. Everyone was just present and dancing and singing and I was blown away by the lack of phones in like today's you know, society.

Speaker 1:

um, everyone was just kind of present and it's so rare yeah yeah, super cool I was at a bon iver show and it like people had cell phones but it wasn't like you know, the iPhone thing. And I remember like at one point he like it was back when it was just him, so he, there was a lot of audience participation to get the effects he wanted and, like the entire show, everybody was just like into it and it was such an awesome sound Like we're all doing this together, you know, and just to have the moment, like right on your phone and load it up in youtube just like right exist, because the watching of that video you take is gonna pale in comparison to the experience you actually have in the moment.

Speaker 3:

So enjoy the moment fully and don't try and document it for some future time. That is going to fall short of it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, for sure Well all right, moving us, moving us along Music can sometimes help us get through difficult and challenging situations also, not just the good times, but also the bad times. They can bring us comfort. So for this next song, what's a Song by Townes Van Zandt and that we know of? Like, townes Van Zandt only had one really serious romantic relationship in his life with another female singer, and they were kind of in and out of each other's lives until his death. This song just talks about the challenge of being in love with someone who is difficult to love and recognizing that you also are difficult to love. And then you're faced with a choice, right Of like do you just continue in this relationship until you're naturally forced apart because of that difficulty, or is there a way for you to embrace that difficulty, accept them for who they are, or is accepting them for who they are going to be the thing that creates that final wedge? So it's a very intense song, I think, emotionally.

Speaker 8:

So it's a Then on she goes to say I don't care, or she knows that I do. Maybe she just has to sing for the sake of the song. Who do? I think that I am to decide that she's wrong so what was the situation?

Speaker 1:

so, um. So, starting in July of 2020, I got diagnosed with testicular cancer and it was bad enough that they wanted to get it out immediately. Pandemic be damned. Wanted to get it out immediately, pandemic be damned. Um. And so that when the va doctor called me and gave me the diagnosis, he said how fast can you be at the va hospital to do your pre-surgery workup? And I said, like half hour he goes. Okay, come down here right now and you need to make a reproductive decision. On the way I was in the grocery store mask on the whole thing, go out to the car, tell ann, this is what happened, we're crying. On the way to the va, I said oh, he says we have to make a reproductive decision.

Speaker 1:

So up until that point, we had thought, like you know, we're not going to have kids. We're going to be two adults that live this life together. And in the course of going over there, talking with the doctor and so on and so forth, we made the decision we're at least going to conserve some samples in case we want to. And then, eventually, we're like we're going to try to do this as soon as I'm healed up. Eventually, we're like we're going to try to do this as soon as I'm healed up. So that's what we did. We were quickly successful. If it's a success, I don't know. We talk about pregnancy in such weird ways. It's like scoring a field goal, like oh, it's a 50-yarder, so yeah.

Speaker 1:

So we had a kid and, and the last few weeks of and pregnancy were difficult. Um, the birth experience itself was very difficult. She developed postpartum anemia, unbeknownst to us, because they never gave her a blood panel afterwards, and so it was just hard, very hard physically and emotionally on her and at the same time I was trying to start a small business. The window company that I had worked for had fallen apart. Another guy from there and I were trying to get our business up off the ground. All these things are sort of colliding. Then we realized quickly after Maude was born, that the cost of childcare in Detroit and the way that Anne was feeling and things like we needed to move to be near her family for some support and to be able to afford daycare for Maude. So, um, then this house that we had bought in detroit and we're fixing up and we were part of the neighborhood and like involved in, like the farmer's market and stuff in the neighborhood.

Speaker 1:

Now we were going to have to leave all of that which was just like brought up, like so much childhood trauma of mine, of the like being constantly moved around, and it really tested anani's relationship, um, because of her state, you know, it's like neither one of us are at the emotional capacity that we needed to be at to reintegrate a relationship after the birth of a child, you know, know, and it really tested our relationship in ways that I never really expected.

Speaker 1:

And I think that when you are in a relationship with somebody where both of you really care about the relationship, where both of you really care about the relationship, like things take on a different valence, you know, and like maybe this will sound like an excuse to stay in a bad relationship, but that's not what I'm getting at. But sometimes people say things in those moments of extreme stress and pain that are a product of where they're at and that are a product of that moment. And you have to, in that moment, I think, when you really love somebody, let them say what they need to say. You know you have to let them have that moment in their way and like we just kind of went through this period of, like very painful interactions with each other. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:

But at the same time it was like I can't look at her and tell her you're wrong for feeling this Right, you know.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker 1:

Or you're wrong about it.

Speaker 3:

Going back to, that thing of feelings need to be felt.

Speaker 1:

Right, you're wrong about what you feel. You know, and if this is where we're at, then this is where we have to be at, because I know that the person that I want to be with is her. I know that the relationship that I want to be in is this one, and even if it means going through this kind of pain, the same way that I said, if it's only six months, it's six months.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker 1:

If it's only this pain right now, now, and we just have to be in this for an indefinite amount of time, then I'm I'm in it with I'm in it with you, I'm in the pain with you, you know and I will accept the reality of this.

Speaker 1:

You know, in the song he makes a different decision. You know, all that she offers me are her chains and I have to refuse. You know he can't accept the relationship, right? If it's not on his terms. But he recognizes that you can't ask her to accept it on his terms, right? I think that sometimes in relationships that stay together it's one person that's willing to accept for a moment in time that the relationship has to happen on that other person's terms. Right Like you need to have this right now and.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to let you have it and I may not like it right. It may not be what I want, it may be hurtful to me in some ways or causing an inordinate amount of stress or strain, but I'll accept that because it comes with you.

Speaker 3:

Right, kind of like how in the normal kind of phrasing you say you got to give that person their space, right, you, you've got to let them be you have to feel what you have to hold space for them in the relationship, to just be them.

Speaker 1:

Not them with you, but just them. You know, and that's hard.

Speaker 1:

That's hard when like you've been with this person and you like the two of you together is an identity and you have this emotional memory of times when it was so easy. And now it's not easy uneasy to get to the easy, and sometimes you just have to stop and be in the uneasy because they need to be able to go through this moment in their way and so you're going to have to accept the relationship on their terms for a period of time. You know, yeah, I think that's hard to do in a romantic relationship. You know, to give up that kind of control, and I think for some people that's the breaking point of the relationship and I think for other people it to build, to build on top of that, you know.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, I um was it this morning, David, that I asked you like advice on being married, as long as we have Sometimes we have these moments where we're like, we're married, Like what? What happened? You know, and I'm like yeah, we've been married for like over a decade.

Speaker 3:

Like you know what?

Speaker 5:

advice, do you?

Speaker 3:

And I'm like yeah we've been married for over a decade. What advice do you have? It was either this morning or yesterday, very recent.

Speaker 5:

And you said it's hard and you have to work at it all the time, and I think people don't always get that Like. Sometimes with relationships, we bring our own like past trauma that we bring to the relationship, our own like past trauma that we bring to the relationship. But sometimes in relationships trauma happens in the relationship or during the relationship, and letting folks process that grieve, that deal with that, while like being in the blast radius or, like you know, having to do what they need, is super hard. That's like the stuff they don't tell you about before you're in a relationship with someone.

Speaker 5:

Yeah. And.

Speaker 1:

I like you don't have to sit through. You know what I mean. I'm not saying like if you really love somebody, you'll put up with all of their bullshit that's. That's not the lesson here. But the lesson is, like in any long-term relationship, there are going to be periods where what's going to be asked of you is to put yourself completely to one side and let that other person have the wheel. You know, and be emotionally supportive of them. In that moment you know, you know and I've tried to be that you know and I have, like, certainly failed. And in those moments you know and have you know, been failed. But you learn to trust somebody emotionally and you learn through going through these things that, like, when they can, they will hold that space for you you know, but you have to actually do that.

Speaker 1:

You can't promise this to somebody like it has to come to that moment and you do it the only way, like if somebody said, oh, I can do that for you. You know, what goes off in my head is like you say that you say that you know. It's like when you're ordering thai hot. It looks really good on the menu. It looks like a good idea when it just says those two words on the menu you know, 12 hours later it's you say that.

Speaker 1:

Right, I feel like that sometimes, when people are like, oh yeah, cause I've, I've talked to a couple of friends like, and that's like really love, and it's like, no, it's not, that's not like right, it's commitment. You know, yeah, and commitment is hard and it's going to require at times that you do things that you don't want to do and you be there for that other person and when you fall short, in those moments like you're going to regret it, you know, and it's hard.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, because those moments really test your love, yeah, and so it's like the commitment, I think that prevails, yeah, cause those moments really test your love, yeah, and so it's like the commitment, I think that prevails, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And when you fail, in those moments you know you feel it in a different way too, like, oh man, I've like it's not just like I hurt her or I pissed her off, it's like I have like let the relationship down and not been an emotionally functional member of it.

Speaker 1:

And I think that song it's just such a good distillation of that moment of understanding. I have to step completely to one side and I can't do it, and that's hard, you know. But I think it also makes me think about what's the flip side of that same choice. What does it mean in that moment to say, okay, all right, I'll do? It and you know.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and you know kind of how did that journey happen, both physically but also emotionally and mentally.

Speaker 1:

I mean, the truth is is, like you know, not all of it was like great. You know, one of the ways that I have always struggled with dealing with things since I came home, it's just like you know, I tell people like, when you get out of the military, like your emotions don't have a ceiling, but there's a floor and there's like a level of stress that I get to where it's like below. That is just nothing, just like a like turned off into that rage, you know, and like I have really struggled since we've moved, to like not lapse into that, you know that has been like.

Speaker 1:

My constant struggle is like this defense mechanism of like turn off and get angry, turn off and get angry, turn off and get angry is always wanting to like because it were it works you know, and like sometimes it's enough space that I can begin to process and work through something, and sometimes it's like I just get stuck, you know, and then you have to remind yourself, like, even when it works, it's not working.

Speaker 1:

You know, like you're still reinforcing to yourself, like you have to go to this place in order to be well, and it's like you can't find the living among the dead, like, um, you're not going to the bad place to take yourself to a good place. So I think that, like, I learned a bad habit through that process, but but I think that I also have come to a place of understanding, like the things that you went through will always be with you, but they don't have to be. That just because a certain moment or a passage of circumstances might remind you of something that you went through or might make you feel like this is happening all over again, does not mean that it's happening all over again.

Speaker 1:

This is happening all over again does not mean that it's happening all over again and like the fact that you're feeling those same emotions right is just a trauma reaction and if you can understand.

Speaker 1:

This is not that thing, right, this is its own thing and you have to take it on its own terms. And it's been like since we've gotten to iowa, it's been me kind of slowly coming to realize how to get to that place and not go to the anger place, you know. But I'm not gonna pretend and approach this conversation and say like it's the finished product and right, right, it's hunky-dory, like it's still hard not to go to that place and still hard not to fall back. You know on that. But you know I what I try to do is one, do the things that I know I need to do diet and exercise and work wise to like keep myself in a healthy place, but also like, when I do fall short and when I do go into those places, like don't try to explain it away to your partner as like it not being that. You know.

Speaker 1:

And so like owning, like you're right. Like I went to an emotionally vacant place Right and I created a bad environment in the house, like you know I understand that I did that and like so it's been I mean humbling, you know, I think for a long time on my healing journey like especially once I was in, had a really good therapist in Eugene you start to feel like I see the way out, I see the light at the end of the tunnel, and you're never ready for, like, at some point there's going to be a big something's going to happen. It's life Right. And like something's going to happen, it's life right. Right, you know. And like how do you?

Speaker 1:

not, in those moments, fall back on what happened before. You know, and I definitely like relapsed into that anger. You know when all of this happened and it's been it's been a long road even back to like a place of recovery, you know, yeah and think I think what you're describing there is.

Speaker 3:

You know, we we've kind of talked a lot through through this, you know, interview of you know giving advice or guidance to someone who is maybe earlier on the journey of healing and whatever that is of you know what, what advice could we give and what guidance? And I feel like what you're getting at here is an important fact of what healing really is. Healing isn't suddenly I don't have these issues anymore Really what it is is it's just buying you a little bit of space between stimulus and your negative response you used to have. It just widens that gap a little bit to where, hopefully, you can insert something different in there, a positive behavior, a healthy behavior, a helpful, whatever it is.

Speaker 3:

But it doesn't make that kind of stimulus response that you learn kind of completely go away. It's always like and that's what you, I think, describe so well is it's always there and if things get tough enough, that gap can kind of close and bam, you go right to that same, you know darker, darker place. And it's really, I think, what you know when people say like it's, it's, it's it's. The work never ends, in that sense, right Cause you, you're always working to keep that gap as wide as it can be, so you have that space for the more healthy. You know responses and feelings and emotions and thoughts to to, to jump in there and break that connection, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah and I. I think I never could have done this if I hadn't stopped drinking. You know, that was the key piece for me, even more than therapy. That had to be completely removed from my life. You know, it was such a crutch, such a destructive behavior, the way I was doing it, and that wasn't curative on its own but it made recovery possible because there wasn't the crutch there anymore and that's been the most important thing for me, and that's been the most important thing for me.

Speaker 1:

But it's hard, once you quit like that, not to run into other escapes. And anger certainly is one of those. It's addictive in its own way.

Speaker 5:

With that we'll round you out. We're at your last song. We made it to the end here. We made it Like we made it to the end here.

Speaker 3:

We made it.

Speaker 5:

And so we'll leave us on a good cheerful note here for your last song, Phil. What's that song that instantly just puts you in a good mood?

Speaker 1:

So the Magic Number by De La Soul and honestly, like it could have been any song off of 3P High and Rising. But this one is just like. At this period in hip hop you sort of had like two hip-hop songs right.

Speaker 1:

You either had like a party song like hey ho, or you had a like I'm the baddest and I'm gonna destroy you, Right, you know kind of song and like this De La Soul record and this song in particular, it's just like these three people are friends, right, and and like what they're talking about in the song is like their friendship, right? These are the things that we're about. These are the things we talk to each other about. These are the jokes that we tell each other. These are the girls that all of us have dated, right, and it was just like a completely different right, but it just like this song, to me, is just so joyous, the production, what they're talking about, how you can feel their friendship in the song, you know, and it just, it's just. It's a song about friends and I, I love it. It always makes me feel better, I'm set.

Speaker 4:

Fly around the store under Daisy Productions. It stands for the inner sound. Y'all in your Quebec that the action's not a trick, but show me how it functions. Everybody wants to be a DJ, everybody wants to be an MC, but being speakers are the best, and you don't have to guess they're also. Posse consist of three and that's the magic number Three. This is I like the beat on that one, yeah.

Speaker 7:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, like I said, that entire record is a like. If you want to feel good on a Saturday, just play the record. But that song is just I don't know. It's joyous Like a piece of cake. I don't know it's joyous like a piece of cake, I don't know.

Speaker 3:

yeah, yeah, yeah totally yeah, and you said it well too of like that thing, I remember the first time hearing de la soul and you know me myself and I was the big, you know popular single from from the album and and yeah, I think you described it so well of like it just had this feel to it that was just different from a lot of other other things. That was just so great.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it wasn't like we're going to make. We're going to make an album full of songs that you like, or an album full of songs that are about how awesome we are. It's like we're going to give you a window into our friendship. You know, and it was such a different way of approaching the form, but just like, in as much as like I can listen to the crime tales on a wu-tang record and like be transported to this other world. You know, like de la soul was definitely this group where it was like you were listening to that record, listening to this song. It's just like it could have been me and two of my friends Right Sitting there cracking jokes on each other. You know some random beat going in the background, just kind of like you know, like building is what we used to call it.

Speaker 1:

You know we're going to go over to Matt's house, we're going to build, you know, and it like that whole spirit in hip hop of like building with your friends, like that's De La Soul and I think we've not even now in popular music like they're just starting a lot of songs about friends. I remember I was doing an independent study on Aristotle with Malcolm in the classics department. And.

Speaker 1:

Malcolm brought up. You know, in the ethics, aristotle talks about friendship more than anything else, and so that was the path that our independent study ended up taking was like tracking down all these notions of friendship in the ethics and like what that meant and like I just think that a lot of times like that, you know, we keep our friendships close, you know, and we exclude people in certain ways from knowing what the friendship is like and what it's about. And I think this song is cool, and this record in particular is cool because it's like here's three people with this incredibly tight friendship that goes back decades, just opening the friendship up to you and saying here's what it's about, here's how we talk to each other, and I think that's a cool moment, cool piece of art.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and there's so much talk going to like what we you know we've talked a lot about trauma and addiction and other things, and you know there's so many people that talk about it now of like the opposite of addiction isn't sobriety, or the opposite of trauma isn't healing. The opposite of addiction is connection, right, and what really addiction is is isolation, right. And so this is a perfect way to, I think, to kind of wrap up in this in the sense of your six songs of like this is this is the message, right, this is this is part of what healing looks like is connection.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah I mean and that like ultimately that's sort of the thrust of how Aristotle talks about friendship and the ethics. Like, you cannot be an ethical person if you don't have friends, because how else are you working out your virtues? You're just sitting in your house.

Speaker 3:

Friendship is sort of the foundation for it all.

Speaker 1:

Right, because those are people that you're not related to. You didn't just choose them, they also chose you, and you constantly have to maintenance that relationship. If you don't do anything with it, it dies. It's not like if I don't talk to my sister for three weeks, I can call her up and she's not like why haven't you called me for three weeks? You know she's my family, she's my blood, you know, but a friendship isn't like that. It requires you to walk out these values and walk out these things.

Speaker 5:

Awesome. Well, Phil, we made it.

Speaker 1:

We made it just 15 minutes over time.

Speaker 5:

These always go over To be fair. The conversations are really good, we get into good deep connections to things always go over like to be fair. Yeah, because the conversations are really good and we get into like good deep, like connections to things and so like we never kind of put a time on it. We we hope to get to there, but we never. We never put a limit on it. Um, how does it feel to to hear your life reflected in these, in these six songs?

Speaker 1:

I think I was prepared for the first half but not the second half. You know, I think I was like ready to talk about what had happened and maybe less ready to talk about like here's what's happening right now, you know, and here's um here's the you know the hard part now.

Speaker 1:

you know, um, and sort of like admitting to yourself in real time like you're still screwing this up. You know you're still doing that thing. Why are you doing the thing that you keep doing? Right, right, um, you know and uh, but I guess, like the way that I feel, like about the veteran stuff that Dave and I have talked about, this whole idea like a good veteran is a quiet veteran, like that's dumb, um, but also I feel in the same way like, um, maybe we just don't talk enough about like the incompleteness of our journeys you know, and like it's a lot easier to go on a podcast and say I found the way out and here's what it is, rather than to say like I'm still struggling with this.

Speaker 1:

But it doesn't make it easier to make that admission, you know, and then to know that people are going to watch this, people are going to see you say I'm still an asshole. So yeah, it's, I don't know. Like I said, in some ways I feel like exactly what I had hoped that the experience was was what it was. I think the vehicle works, you know, it does what you say it's gonna do and that's that's good. Like, like I said, like even if it hurts, you still have to do it, you know. And some of that, I think, is like me learning that it's okay to make mistakes. You know, I think when you grow up, like in the kind of household I did, like mistakes have consequences you know, and what that does is not make you a person who's better behaved.

Speaker 1:

It makes you a person who lies about the mistake you know, and when you're a kid, you lie to your parents. When you're an adult, you lie to yourself. You know, because you're the one that's going to give yourself the worst punishment. You know and um, I think it's really easy, like when things are going well, to lie to yourself and not pretend that like around the corner is you know the thing, that's gonna, that's gonna pull you down. Yeah.

Speaker 7:

I think one of the things we've seen throughout this, specifically through this episode, but also, I think, kind of a running theme here, is that the focus is on the journey, like not the completion of it, not the final product, because there almost is no such thing as a final product, right like. I mean, life is like. The final product is when you're done, I mean it's with, it's as. As long as we're out there, living, breathing, kicking, I mean it's, it's the journey, um, and I think that that that that's a theme that at least for this, for this show, and and and and and trying to weave that common thread with our guests, you know, by way of music is just to show, hey, it's a work in progress and highlight that and celebrate it and yeah, so we definitely appreciate you doing that with us.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean thanks for the opportunity, you know.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, hopefully.

Speaker 5:

I mean thanks for the opportunity, you know. Yeah, hopefully I wasn't Sorry. I think it can. I think it can in how we look at that journey right, like I think it can suck to be like you're still on this journey, you know. But I also think, for those of us that are on a more of a healing journey, hearing other folks say that like they're still on it and they're still working at it, I think there can be some comfort to that Because you can, you could feel yourself like why am I still struggling here? And it can make you feel less alone to think like, no, that's kind of that's kind of normal.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, or at least like it's. It's a place along the way, you know it's. It's a place along the way. You know it's a place along the way. And it's frustrating, you know. I think it's personally frustrating when you continue to make a mistake that you know you shouldn't make. It's frustrating for the people that you're with. You know, the people that you're around Like, why did it get here? You know, like, why did it here? You know, um, but yeah, I just, I just think in general, you know, I want to, um, yeah, not try to present, present myself as, like, I made it out.

Speaker 1:

You know I'm still struggling out of the cave, you know with everybody else, you know, and trying to get away from the shadows on the wall right and and the struggle is the way.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, right to to like? Um, that that's the point. There is no like, like raza said, there's no point to get to, because what would that look like? Right, it is just a constant process and you just are either on the journey or you're just letting it take you, you know, and yeah, and hopefully along the way you get to some moments where you can look around, like you said, phil, and say wasn't that nice?

Speaker 5:

Like wasn't that nice, this is nice, this is nice.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it's right here and it's right now, but it's nice yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 5:

All right, yeah, so we finish this out with kind of a fun little lightning round here that Raza will guide you through before we sign off.

Speaker 7:

Yeah, all right, lightning round, yeah. So this is our sort of the final piece of today's puzzle and, basically, in keeping with our musical theme, we want to know, we'd love to know, what was your first, last and best or favorite concert that you went to.

Speaker 1:

The first concert is very hard to think of and I don't know, it was probably some Christian Christian like decent talk or something like that you can say whatever you want, no one's gonna fact check that had to be it because, like like I said, until I was like I remember when I saw the beatles the first time like until I was 12 or 13, that would not have been a like you know, public, your public music like that would have been yeah, not something we would have did, but yeah, it was either like I think, probably like carmen or dc talk, like a contemporary music concert.

Speaker 1:

That would be my first. The last concert I went to was, I think, william fitzsimmons and slow runner at wow hall in eugene. It was just like folding chairs, like 50 people, super intimate, um which for like his with for vocals.

Speaker 1:

It was really, really it was a fantastic show so they did like slow runner open and then he came out and did a set and then they did like a 30 minute set together. Archipelago in the audience. Oh man yeah, it was cool. And then, uh, the best show I was at, I was at, I'm pretty sure, in my answer I said the pearl jam show in 2006 and that's probably it. The bon iver show I mentioned earlier is like they're like neck and neck the pearl jam show like they were at the end of a tour.

Speaker 1:

He had a cold so, like eddie's voice was going, and towards the end of the show, I think it might have even been their first encore. Um, they started in the better man and his voice cracked. No, and he had to stop. And the whole crowd in the United Center just waiting watching the clock. It's four o'clock. They sang it for him.

Speaker 1:

Then the entire crowd sang the rest of the first verse. And then the pre kind of played him into the chorus and he came back on the mic and he was like we sound united. It was at the united center. He's like what a great crowd. You all sound united you know, it was crazy because you could tell that like people had been singing along to the songs in the show, so they already knew right where they were in the song right the minute his voice cracked.

Speaker 1:

It was like there were 60 000 people to just like, boom, we're gonna, we're gonna bang this right out. And then they played two more encores after that, um, which were all just like the classic stuff um, that's awesome but it, yeah, that was a great show.

Speaker 1:

And then the other cool thing about that show when we showed up to the show, we thought that we had front row seats on the, because we knew the stadium, you know right, we thought we had front row seats on the second deck. When we get there we realize we're behind the stage and we're looking at the backs of the speakers and the backdrop yeah so we were like oh, right right.

Speaker 1:

So we're standing there. The opening act came out. They played like three songs and they stopped. We were like what in the world? So then we see the band, we see pearl jam coming up, because now we could, we're behind the stage, right. So we see them coming up. They come out. They're behind the stage, right. So we see them coming up, they come out, they're on the side of the stage. We're like are they coming on already? Or like what's going on? And all of a sudden we see the backdrop coming down and apparently the opening band had gone back and said like there's all these people behind the stage there's all these people behind the stage and they.

Speaker 1:

They just moved the lights into a square and then played the concert in the round.

Speaker 7:

So that's awesome.

Speaker 1:

I mean, they kind of had stuff set up so they couldn't do it purely in the round. So he played like half the show this way, and then Eddie and Mike and stone cause it couldn't turn around the drum kit. It all set up, sure sure, yeah, eddie and mike and stone turned around and eddie came around to our side and then they played facing us for a while and during the incores. He would kind of like eddie would sing both ways and kind of perform, and it was, it was just kind of a cool moment yeah for sure.

Speaker 1:

And then the last. Yeah, that was the best one, so that's it, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that takes care of it.

Speaker 5:

Thank you. That's awesome, Phil. Thank you so much for coming on. No, thank you for having me on and trusting us with your story and your songs and your music and just thank you. In the few minutes we have left just to sign us off, if there's anything, we give you the floor for a minute to tell folks what you might have going on, anything you want to share and if your story maybe resonated with folks, maybe how they can contact you. If you're okay with that.

Speaker 1:

I definitely shouldn't be anybody's therapist, unless we're already friends. Wait, please don't come to me for advice. I'm working my way through my own battle. So I'm here in Humboldt making wood doors and windows and I'm going to be maybe doing a little bit of freelance work for the newspaper here in town. So that'll be fun Be able to flex the writing muscles again. And Ann and I are kind of at. This is Ann's behest.

Speaker 1:

I am very much like let's stay at home and be in the garden, but we're embarking on some community-minded endeavors and going to be restoring an old building downtown and just doing some different kind of things and, obviously, working on this house. So, yeah, that's pretty much it. My life is my work and my family and I like it that way. I like to keep it pretty boring these days, but that's good for me and it suits me. But that's good for me and it suits me. But certainly, if you're watching this and you are a past friend from life that David and I shared and you want to reach out and we're not really in contact, you know, you obviously feel free. But yeah, I am definitely not comfortable telling people yeah, reach out to me, I'll tell you what to do.

Speaker 3:

yeah, yeah no need for that at all. I have a two and a half year me and it's like I'll tell you what to do. I don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No need for that at all I have a two and a half year old and that's all my.

Speaker 3:

That's where all my life advice goes, you know like there you go, there you go I love that and I think you know also, you, you've given everybody so much already by just opening up for these. You know two hours and so you, you've definitely, you've definitely done enough and so, yes, you can um, like, like they say to iron man, you can rest now. You've done the work. Yeah, um, yeah, um, yeah. So again, thanks, phil, for coming on, thanks for being being open, thanks for sharing Um for everyone listening out there. You know, um, you all know what to do.

Speaker 3:

If you've liked what you've heard, share it with people. If the story today resonated with you and you think there's someone out there that could benefit from hearing this, that they, they might are, um, needing a little help getting on their healing journey, please share it with them. Um, if we can help others, that's that's a win. That's what we're going for. So definitely share it, like it. Uh, subscribe, follow whatever your platform is, so you can hear more episodes. Um, and if you are someone who's listening, who is struggling, know that there's help out there. You are not alone, um, it can get better, um, and so seek out those places to find help. Call someone, let someone know you are not alone. It can get better, and so seek out those places to find help. Call someone, let someone know you are not a burden to anyone. The people in your life want you there, so make that call and with that we will see you next time on A Life in Six Songs. Thanks for watching and listening.

People on this episode

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David Reese

Host
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Carolina Reese

Co-host
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Raza Mahmood

Co-host