Jessika Lagarde - Healing with Psilocybin (#012)

In this episode of Don't Step on the Bluebells, Amanda Parker interviews plant medicine facilitator Jessika Lagarde about how intentional psilocybin truffle journeys can catalyze profound healing when done in a safe, supported container. She dives into what trauma-informed facilitation looks like and emphasizes the importance of preparation, integration and a holistic approach for lasting transformation. Jessika shares powerful stories of healing and offers advice for those curious to begin exploring psychedelic-assisted healing work.

How to Get in Touch:

• Website: www.jessikalagarde.com
• Instagram:  @theglobalpaths
• Women on Psychedelics: https://www.womenonpsychedelics.com/
• Instagram: @womenonpsychedelics 

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Transcript

Amanda Parker: [00:00:00] Welcome to today's episode of don't step on the Bluebells. I'm here with the remarkable Jessica Lagarde, who is a trauma informed plant medicine facilitator among many other incredible talents that she has. And she's going to be sharing with us this incredible work that she does working not just with women, not just with psychedelics, but really Helping people to find different ways to explore their own self expression, their own self acceptance, getting to know themselves.

And I am super excited to have this conversation because I know this is a topic that a lot of people feel oftentimes nervous about or they really don't have that much information on. So we're diving into all things psychedelics and psilocybin and the way that. You can really use this incredible medicine to help you in your own life.

Jessica, thank you so much for [00:01:00] being here today and sharing your wisdom with us on Don't Step on the Bluebells.

Jessika Lagarde: Thank you for invitation, Amanda. I'm excited to be here as well.

Amanda Parker: Yeah, so we were connected through a mutual contact, actually, I'm not even sure you knew we were connected, but I was given your information, um, by another guest who was on the podcast, my first guest, actually, Jacobean van der Weyden. So she runs the Microdosing Institute in the Netherlands. She basically said you have to get in touch with Jessica to be able to dive a bit deeper into this, uh, context and everything else.

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had the lucky actually to work with Jacobine for the past year as well with the Microdosing Institute, helping out with some co facilitation. So yeah, I'm pretty happy that she connected us both, actually.

Amanda Parker: Yeah, I am too, and I find it really interesting because a lot of people working in this space take, you know, there's many different [00:02:00] ways to work with this kind of plant medicine. So, She had shared with us earlier in the podcast, you know, what it means to take micro doses and not just that, not just the impact on your body, but also even thinking about.

Um, just the way society views these kind of things because it's really, like, bigger questions that's on a lot of people's minds. So I know you work with this a little bit differently. Maybe you want to tell us just a little bit about, um, the way that you're working in this world of facilitation and supporting people.

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah. So Well, I try to bridge a little bit of both things, right? I do the facilitation in microdosing, but also most of my work is actually focused on the macro journeys, which is actually working with psilocybin, mostly specifically here in the Netherlands, because it's the only psychedelic that is actually legal. And Uh, [00:03:00] the way we do that is through intentional journeys and these journeys, they can happen within a container of one person with the facilitator or within a group ceremony, or even within retreat experiences. And this high. Journey, like this higher dose experience can look, uh, quite different, uh, than the micro dosing journeys. Uh, but in principle we touch base in very similar, uh, aspects of the self, right? Like the, the way that I see that is the. Best way to work with psychedelics is really to put intention and attention into what aspects of your life you feel like you need some changing or you need some help with or where you want to develop more self awareness and what are.

Uh, sometimes certain blockages that you have been experienced, where are you feeling stuck [00:04:00] and these compounds really have the potential to actually shine a light in those aspects or yeah, just be an amplifier in what parts of you that you are, that have been blurry for a little bit of time. So that's how I really see. Um, that they can be quite significant in bringing about, uh, change into a person's life. And I do feel that, uh, the microdose journeys, like they do offer that possibility within certain, um, how would I say that, uh, there are certain ways that that can be more, uh, optimal. Um, like better experienced and that would be throughout guidance. Also like having different support systems that can support that experience. And I'm pretty sure we're going to dive a little bit [00:05:00] deeper into that as well. Uh, but just to touch a little bit on that is that, uh, the fact that it's not just a pill or anything that you're going to take and suddenly everything is going to change and magic is going to happen, uh, which has been one of.

The main concerns I have since all these things psychedelic related have become quite popular in the media. Uh, but it's really the way you actually work with the compounds that matter.

Amanda Parker: That's really interesting. You bring up already so many facets that I want to touch on, but just to clarify for a moment, so what is macrodose? What exactly does that mean?

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah. A microdose is specifically with psilocybin. Would be a certain amount that is between, in this case in the Netherlands, when we're talking about psilocybin truffles and not psilocybin mushrooms, I think that's one thing that I [00:06:00] actually should clarify a little bit more because the dosing in there is a little bit different. Uh, when we're talking about psilocybin mushrooms, usually they, they're, they're Intake, um, is made as, uh, dry mushrooms and, uh, low dose would be between one and two grams. And if you are talking about a higher dose journey, a macro dose, it would be between four, five grams 

of dry mushrooms. And now when we come to truffles, uh, The truffles are actually wet, so, when they are taken, so their, the dose sounds quite bigger in terms of number, uh, but it's basically the same thing, that would be between 30 and 45 grams of truffles.

Amanda Parker: Wow, that sounds quite different.

Jessika Lagarde: I have to explain that often to clients that come here because I say that to people and they [00:07:00] feel like I'm talking about 45 grams of dry mushrooms and that sounds really insane. Yeah, but yeah, it is quite different. But in principle, the effects are the same. And of course, we have all sorts of different strains of truffles as well as mushrooms, and different strains have different, um, Effects, basically, visual effects, or the, some are more prone to introspective experiences, others are more for, I don't know, being giggly with your friends, so.

Amanda Parker: So when someone comes in, because you also talked about a journey and that's a word that I think we use a lot in like the healing and energy space, but someone who's not as familiar as probably like, okay, what the hell are these journeys? So when you're taking someone on a journey, what exactly does that mean?

Um,[00:08:00] 

Jessika Lagarde: Hmm, well, think about, uh, as if you would be watching a movie. For example, and you go to the movie theater and you really get fully immersed in that experience as almost as if you would be part of that story. Uh, this is one way that I see it like this journey with the truffles, but at times it can look like more like a movie of your life or a movie of a certain aspect of your life.

And. I call it a journey because it does has, uh, the experience itself has certain stages, uh, from beginning to the end. And also you are kind of navigating different emotions through it, or you are kind of being confronted with different aspects of yourself, or at times with different feelings that might arise, [00:09:00] and it really feels like. A whole adventure that you are going in, but it's like really inwards experience if you are doing it in this context and in the setting and this type of container that is the container, um, that was created for healing purposes or for therapeutical purposes. So. This is more or less why I call it a journey, although very oftentimes I like to emphasize we call it a journey, but the journey actually starts when the truffle journey ends, because that's actually when you have the insights and the whole other process. Can start, uh, in your life that can involve, uh, certain life changers or looking deeper into behavior patterns or yeah, really seeing what are the things in your life that need some sort of attention to.[00:10:00] 

Amanda Parker: So it sounds like the psilocybin itself is actually the door opener so you can have some insights or epiphanies but then you actually need to do the work of seeing what does that actually mean in my life now.

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah. So it's just exactly beautifully described. Uh, that's how I like to see the compound actually. Um, I don't see it as a magic. Bullet that is basically showing something new about yourself, but rather just, yeah, again, putting an amplifier on some things that you already know, and you just didn't want to acknowledge, or you didn't want to look in there. Um, that being said, I do think psilocybin works with our body's intelligence or our nervous system's intelligence and. What some people called in the spiritual space, our inner healer. So both the compound [00:11:00] and this inner healer, they work together, uh, to actually ignite something inside of us that we can choose, uh, to make something out of it, uh, to take action towards afterwards, but you can also just have, uh, an amazing experience and have insights and don't do anything about it.

Right. So. But this is also the aspect of it that I find it's pretty incredible. It's actually just reminding us that the power and the agency is actually within us, right? It's not the compound that is giving that to us. It is always there. It's just reminding us that this is always there. And you choose and you have the power to do whatever you want with it afterwards.

Amanda Parker: So something I find fascinating to understand, um, we're getting a better idea of what it is that you do and how you help people. If you were to imagine that you're talking to your five year [00:12:00] old self and explaining to five year old Jessica what it is that you do in the world, how would you describe it to her?

Jessika Lagarde: Wow, that's a big question. Okay. Um, I think I would say that basically I go with people to a place that they once knew and they have maybe forgotten. And basically I'm just there, uh, to make sure that they feel safe enough to explore those terrains and those landscapes. And While I'm there, they know that everything's fine. Everything's welcome. And this is also why I like, I call [00:13:00] myself more a facilitator rather than a guide. I just, I am just there to ensure that whatever needs to unfold, uh, will, will happen in the most safe way as possible. And. At the end of the experience, I'm also there to carry the person through whatever is needed or whatever kind of support is needed. Um, so maybe, yeah, for my five year old self, I don't know, it could be like a good school teacher or somebody who is taking, yeah, then on a excursion through a museum or something. Yeah, I think that would be an easy way, yeah, to

grasp it. 

Amanda Parker: It was a really beautiful description of how you help keep people safe, and a five year old would get that, and so would an adult. We, we [00:14:00] don't often have those spaces where we really feel safe to experience ourselves. And a lot of people are just so afraid of what will come up, know, they're really scared of what they're going to have to confront or what they need to know.

So

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah, yeah. 

Amanda Parker: beautiful way of putting it.

Jessika Lagarde: Thank you, Amanda. Yeah. And again, like, um, this safety aspect also looks different for everyone, right? Like, so this is also part of this process is actually working with people to understand what safety means to them because it will, it will look different. And, um, Yeah, like, really making sure that the person feels seen, heard, and carried throughout the experience is a really big part of what can allow vulnerability to actually happen and what can actually empower the person to have the [00:15:00] strength. To go to those places that sometimes we don't want to go. If you go there and you know there is somebody else out here in presence, or sometimes just holding your hand, it can really make a whole difference in terms of like how much you surrender or how much you go into the experience.

Amanda Parker: I can say, I'll share a little bit just of my own experience. So I haven't done this with psilocybin and I haven't done a micro, uh, macro dose in that way, but I did work with ayahuasca in a retreat setting and it was so hard to let go. And I know, especially there, I had done a few ceremonies. In that retreat and that first ceremony.

I mean, I did not want to let go. I was holding on to control. I was aware of everything happening in the room around me. And I remember having to set the intention for myself on, maybe it was the second, um, ceremony, the second journey that we did, of, okay, [00:16:00] now the intention is surrender. And that was a very different experience.

Jessika Lagarde: I can't imagine that for sure, but it's also interesting, like when we have experiences in which we can actually observe how difficult it is to let go or even what letting go means, right?

Because I don't feel Like, sometimes 

Amanda Parker: that?

Jessika Lagarde: we don't fully grasp what that means until we go into an experience like that or until we are faced with something in life that we actually realize control is an illusion and we have absolutely no control over anything. So, yeah, I feel like, yeah, this can also shine a light in which are the ways in life that at times we give ourselves more anxiety and worry, or, yeah, it Although, you know, in all itself, it can be quite an interesting, yeah, observation of the self.[00:17:00] 

Amanda Parker: That is for sure. Um, so how did you actually get into this work? What was it that drove you to begin?

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah. So basically, um, I think I'm pretty much like everybody else. I bumped into psychedelics when I first moved, uh, to Amsterdam in 2018. And I started to actually have experiences in more of a recreational setting. Um. Which is very common and very popular around here. And I feel at times, uh, recreational is very much underlooked. Um, but these experiences have been responsible for so much of me tapping into my self expression and connection to my creative side and connection to music and to others in such spaces. And it took me. About a year to actually, um, start to go into [00:18:00] experiences with more of a. Therapeutical lens and focusing more on healing. Not that before in this recreational experiences, I did also experience healing one way or another. But when you actually take a compound like this, uh, in a different container, as we were talking about before, there is so much more that can emerge. And again, when you put intention, when you work alongside. uh, facilitator or you work alongside a therapist or you have a whole other support system around you. Uh, there's so much more than you can get, uh, from the psilocybin experience. So it was only in 2020 then that I started doing more of this work. I got some mentorship and I started, uh, sitting for people.

Sitting basically means, yeah, facilitating these experiences for group journeys or 201 [00:19:00] sessions. And yeah, since then I actually dove, yeah, quite deep in doing a lot of that, uh, around here because the country, the advantage that I have around here is again, it's legal. To do the work that I do, which in most places that's not the case. And since then I had the, the chance to actually, um, be with many people and, uh, get training for that to, you know, be trauma informed and actually understand the multidi dimensionality of. The work that I'm doing and what it actually means to work with compounds that have been used by indigenous cultures for hundreds of years.

And what does it mean also to start using those and applying them through a more Western context? So it has been a really [00:20:00] deep process compressed in just this last four years, I would say. Yeah, and it's ongoing.

Amanda Parker: Yeah, I think that's, um, sounds a lot like, well, the healer's journey, honestly, but also in the coaching journey, you can't become a coach unless You experience it yourself. don't really know what it means, and you can't take people further than you've gone yourself. 

Jessika Lagarde: Oh yeah, 

Amanda Parker: yeah, exactly. In your process of becoming this facilitator, and really going deeper, you're also taking yourself deeper to see what's really possible.

Jessika Lagarde: yes, yes, no, 100%. And I think especially when you're talking about psychedelic work, um, your own experiences are fine. I try to see that like they are part of your training, right? Like you cannot guide somebody through. A [00:21:00] terrain that you haven't been before and the more, you know, you engage in self discovery and actually breaking down conditioning and self beliefs and all of that, the better you are in supporting other people throughout that process. So I, I like to often use the analogy of, um, for you to. If you want to work with a facilitator or a guide, it would be the same, uh, that you wouldn't want to enter an airplane with a pilot that didn't learn how to fly. So that's basically how I see the work that I do. And this is why, like, I. I have had quite a few experiences myself.

I, every year, attend a retreat or ceremony guided by other facilitators because it's a, [00:22:00] I find it's a lifelong inner work, but it's also a work that you constantly have to put yourself in the place of a student. So, in the case, um, and why do I say that? It's because it's also a very relational work, and it's a vulnerable work, both for the Facilitator and for the person who is going into the experience and what we want to do is avoid any sort of like projection from the facilitator size or being compromised in the space that you are holding because of Some in a process that you didn't look into before

Amanda Parker: That's, that's interesting. I, I learned that, um, so I'm trained in Reiki, and I remember learning that in the Reiki training, that was, You have to continuously be looking at your own energy and clearing and all of this, because otherwise, if you're in a session and something comes up You have to know if it's yours or not.

Jessika Lagarde: hmm. Mm

hmm. 

Amanda Parker: does this belong to the client? Is this mine? And I've had that [00:23:00] happen a few times and, you know, a lot of it is also intuitive and you have to feel your way through. But if I haven't been doing my own work in those moments and I say, I'm noticing something in the stomach. No, stomach's fine. I'm like, Oh,

Jessika Lagarde: Mm hmm

Amanda Parker: I'll be back.

No. Um, so you really have to be able to see that and decipher what's yours and what's not. That's 

Jessika Lagarde: Yes, yes, yes, and especially in the psychedelic containers as well when we're talking about trauma informed approach uh Is really seeing in what ways your behavior or like your response to whatever is happening in that space can be helpful, or it can be a trigger, or it can re traumatize a person. So, you really need to keep, um, yeah, this level of self awareness very present as well, and really check in with yourself.

Like, am I Going now, uh, to assist or give like a, a hand, is this coming from me [00:24:00] or is that person really needing that as an example? So, yeah,

Amanda Parker: So you've said trauma informed, and that, because I think that's, I see this all over now, right, and it's become very popular in different fields of work, what does that actually mean, if you could shed some light for us on what is trauma informed?

Jessika Lagarde: yeah. So basically, uh, being trauma informed is actually coming from an understanding and this obviously comes from the training that I got. That comes, uh, a bit from somatic experiencing and the teachings from Peter Levine and Gabor Maté, uh, is this understanding that everyone in our society has a certain level of trauma and This can be like big T trauma, like big traumatic events, um, like car accident, death [00:25:00] of a family member or anything like that, or small T traumas, which at times are things that we don't even consider or think are traumas, uh, like for example, Being neglected by your parents when you were young or a divorce in your family. Or at times it is not really what happened, but the way you responded to something that happened while you were a child. And when we actually looking, uh, have this understanding and look at people and try to understand how much of their. Childhood and history influences the way they move through the world right now. Uh, we can better support them through all these experiences. So being trauma informed is actually taking the time to look into that, do like a proper intake, understand, you know. What, uh, [00:26:00] are the trauma responses that a person can have? Uh, what are the things that make a person feel unsafe or safe? And yeah, what is the best way that you can actually create this safe enough container, uh, for each individual so that you can, as a facilitator, uh, give them the best response as possible. Can give you a, um, short example on that, uh, because I think that's also very helpful is that the, because we are all very unique, there can be times that, um, the way that I respond to a client, uh, in terms of attention, uh, for one person can be triggering for another person. It can be actually, this is exactly what I needed. So. If you know the history, uh, of this person and what kind of trauma [00:27:00] responses they have, then you are better able, uh, to give them exactly what they need. So if you have somebody who have a history or not feeling validated by their parents or by people in their surroundings, and you are there as a facilitator, what you want to do is actually be there for whatever they are saying. Uh, and if they say they need something, you try to give that in the best possible way. If they say they are feeling something, you really try to be there and listen. So yeah, this is just one quick example of that.

Amanda Parker: So you're really taking the time to get to know the people that come in and understand And what are some of these either stories or beliefs or patterns that are showing up for them

that you can be aware of and maybe even help them work through, depending what that is.

Jessika Lagarde: and at times actually [00:28:00] help them being aware of that themselves, right? Because, uh, the majority of people don't even think about these things, right? Like, uh, I see that within myself, like six years ago, I would be walking through the world being completely unaware of why things, certain things happen in my life or why certain cycles keep repeating themselves until I actually.

Uh, yeah, I started studying all of this and actually looking into all of this. So, but in general, like I feel if you want to dive into psychedelic work, or if you want to do any sort of psychedelic work, even if it is with a microdosing, uh, being supported by a facilitator, this person. Should always take the time to get to know you and it should be a longer extended process because if you want to make these experiences safe enough again and more beneficial than harmful then this preparation and this longer intake and this curiosity and [00:29:00] like really going there can make a huge.

Difference on how the experience unfolds and how the microdosing journey unfolds and actually how integration happens afterwards. So I do feel like, yeah, that's super, super important in general.

Amanda Parker: Yeah, that is powerful. And as you said, it's, um, a lot of people are starting to explore and experience and experiment with psychedelics now. It's becoming more widely available. And I'm certain that there's. Not as many places doing it this way, where it's really intentional and you create the safety and you develop the understanding, and it doesn't mean they can't be impactful in different ways, but it's certainly, I guess, what's your goal?

That's the thing to really know. What is it that you're hoping to get? Because if you want to work through these blocks or things have been standing in your way and you work through. Really, as you said earlier, want to, like, clear that blurry feeling, like, the [00:30:00] inability to really see clearly, then you want to make sure you're really doing this in the right way.

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah, yeah, no, but you are absolutely right. That's not necessarily what happens. Uh, especially again, picking up the, the context that we have here in the Netherlands, that these things are legal and they are fairly accessible when you have a whole range of offerings around. Um, the reality is we have a culture. That we like faster, better, stronger, quicker. I don't know. Like everyone likes the quick fix. We don't like, you know, to put hard, long work is it takes effort. Uh, and a lot of people would like to get the shortcut and unfortunately, again. The media, the way the media has promoted psychedelics at times has been a little bit with, uh, coming from that lens, which [00:31:00] I feel like, yeah, it's exactly, I feel like it's a bit, um, at times they, they can have a huge impact, but It might not be long lasting because it is a combination of really putting the effort and things into action and not just taking a pill. This has been the culture, yeah, for many years with like antidepressants and all the other stuff that we just take pills and like not really address. The core, uh, or like the root cause of things, then we are not really fixing anything, right? Like we're just numbing. So that's not really something you can do with psychedelics. Uh, they make it a little bit more difficult to do that. Uh. They rather bring things to the surface, uh, but you still need to have this big, uh, part which is [00:32:00] your own self, uh, choosing, yeah, to do something about it.

Amanda Parker: Hmm. So, I see that a lot in the work that I do as well, and I think Like, that's the point at which, like, when I tell someone, you don't need a coach, like, you can do this on your own, but it really helps to have someone guiding you through the process so it's not so, I guess, also overwhelming. I mean, if you see, oh, okay, I can have this great experience on psychedelics and everything's gonna be changed.

You know, some people might be inclined to say, yes, I'll do that. Thank 

Jessika Lagarde: Mm hmm. 

Amanda Parker: Um, but they don't realize that what they're actually missing out on by having guidance or someone who's really there with them to support them through the process.

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah, no, exactly. And also to actually sometimes help see things through a different lens or hold themselves accountable. Sometimes we [00:33:00] do need a push or we do need to talk to other people so that we actually, oh, actually have new insights ourselves when we are sharing something, right? Like every advices of friends or anything like that, oh, I automatically have a different view on things that I'm sharing. So it's. Yeah, I agree with you. It's not something like you need to, but if you do so, it also shows that you are putting more attention and intention into what you're doing. Right. So I feel like that that's where the potential really lies.

Amanda Parker: So let's talk a bit about how this process works. So if someone says, I really want to have this experience. What happens then? Do they call you? Do you work, like, is it a retreat setting? Does someone say, hey, can I come into your office? How do you actually work with 

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, it can look different, [00:34:00] uh, depending of, um, yeah. How they want to start doing this work. Right. Like if they want to do this. As a one on one process or if they want to do that as a group process, uh, both processes have different qualities to it. Um, I do have a preference for group work because I find that because I don't, yeah, like our, most of our core beliefs and core wants come from relationships. So it is through relationships that we actually get to heal those and group work has an amazing Ability to actually do that in a very beautiful way. Uh, but at times that can be people are not ready to be in a whole. You know, full blown ceremony, retreat container, because it is intense. Like, it's not easy as you described with your ayahuasca experience.

So [00:35:00] that being said, it's not for everybody either. So that's why we also have the one on one work, which is what they are trying to, uh, bring through over the next years with psychedelic psychotherapy under the medical model. The way this process can look like, both for the group work and for the one on one work or two on one work, is having an intake at first. And ideally, if you want to work with a facilitator, a guide, this intake is important. I need to emphasize that because if you, if you're thinking about taking up psychedelic and somebody doesn't do the intake, that's a huge, huge red flag. And this intake, uh, can be done via a call or filling up a form or most often both. And it basically mean, [00:36:00] um, really getting to know the history of the person, the medical history as well, but also like assessing what is their current emotional state or what are the things that they have been experiencing right now. Uh, if they have any history of. Bipolar, schizophrenia, or borderline in the family, because these are really also, uh, red flags and not advisable for people that have the history.

Um, yeah, so

Amanda Parker: Could you just say for a moment why?

Jessika Lagarde: psychedelics, again, they are not, unfortunately, they are not for everybody. So they are not, um, compounds that are safe for everybody to just take them and, uh, have a good experience with it. People that have. That history of mental disorders, like I don't like to use that word, but that's the word that most people will understand what I'm talking about. [00:37:00] I'm more susceptible to actually have some sort of psychosis or negative experiences if they take psychedelics. And this is one of the things that most facilitators are trying to. Uh, filter because we do not have enough research to see if psychedelics can be helpful for people with that history or at all. So in this case, it's better be safe than anything else. Um, so the intake. And the medical screening is usually to look into those things and also look if the person is in a current emotional state that is, um, very unstable or very dangerous, like suicidal ideation or not having actually people in their support system, then it's probably better if they don't.

Take psychedelics [00:38:00] as well. Uh, yeah, for obvious reasons. So this is how we start the process and we start to look into, Hey, yeah. You think you're a good fit and it's actually a good fit for you, but let's, you know, dive a little bit deeper on what exactly you're trying to get from this. So this is where it enters a process of preparation and understanding intention and managing expectations and understanding. You know, the way I work, like I was, as we talked before, through a trauma informed lens, all of these things that make this person, this person, so that we can create together an experience that is going to be helpful, that is going to be, you know, the optimal, safe enough container, uh, so that they can explore their inner selves. And Um, should I go into how the journey looks like?

Amanda Parker: If [00:39:00] you're ready to and want to, then yeah. Because I think, like, I always try to put myself in the shoes of someone who has very little experience, but a lot of curiosity. And they might be listening, really thinking, like, I don't know, like, is this scary? Should I do it? How does it work? And so, listening to you really share what that's like is a bit of that demystifying process.

That's a little, okay, this is not just some scary thing that I don't understand and don't know how to engage with, but there's real people who are, like, highly trained. They know how to guide me through, and it's something that I can actually access. 

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah. 

Amanda Parker: That's the piece that's helpful. It

Jessika Lagarde: These fears and concerns are very valuable and they make a lot of sense, right? Like if you look into the history of psychedelics and how everything got prohibited in the past, you don't [00:40:00] read very nice things about it. So there is a lot of stigma around it.

There's a lot of, um, misinformation. And there's a lot of like really, uh, scary ideas that can, you know, show up about these compounds. So this is also why a big part of my work is actually the educational work to try to reeducate people on, uh, and especially women on what psychedelics actually are and what can they actually do for you and how to do them in a safe and responsible manner. Um, But some fears that I see often people having is, um, am I going to go crazy? Uh, which is a very normal one because it was a lot in propaganda in the past, or am I gonna stay like this forever? Or is this gonna mess up my brain? Or sometimes it's like, Is this going to make me quit my job and move to the jungle and things [00:41:00] like

that in my life?

Amanda Parker: but only if that's your journey.

Jessika Lagarde: Exactly. So, um, these are very valid fears and we try to work with those fears, uh, and understand them deeper throughout the preparation process as well. Because, uh, It's also part of making sure the person will feel safe enough for the experience and really having trust, not only on what the experience can look like on the facilitator, on the compound they are working with, but also on themselves is really, really super important.

Amanda Parker: Yeah. So it's really, um, fascinating because I think, I think that people don't realize actually how much work and thought goes into this experience, you know, I don't think I mean, for those who are not as experienced, for people who have, you know, worked with these compounds, as you put [00:42:00] it before, they will have an understanding of it, but for a lot of people, you just have no idea how much thoughtfulness really goes in,

and into guiding people through a positive experience, like the purpose of doing this, the reason that you're coming together is to help create change and shift, and to help bring awareness, whatever that looks like, to the person who needs it, So you're actually just facilitating a space where people get what they need to do the work they need to do.

And the psilocybin itself is an aid, a very important aid in that process, but it's still just one piece of the overarching puzzle of how you get 

Jessika Lagarde: Yes, exactly. Uh, and this psilocybin itself. Right. Like it's not a main thing and it's not the main tool, right.

But it's a combination of different tools that you are combining, uh, yeah, to support you throughout your healing journey or your journey back [00:43:00] to yourself. So that's. Why we talk a lot about the container as well, like how the setting setting.

So like the mindset, the person is on, like during the experience or the days prior to it, uh, the place where the experience takes place, uh. Who is there to support you and the dose, how much you're taking from that compound, how much do you know about that compound and about the effects that it has on the body

and how much actually, yeah, psychoeducational information you have received beforehand.

This is very helpful as well so that you feel like more trust in the process. And not only that, but also like how much support you're gonna get afterwards, which is quite a big piece as well. So it's really that combination

that makes up psychedelic experience, something that can be life changing,

Amanda Parker: Hmm.

Jessika Lagarde: uh, and long lasting.[00:44:00] 

Amanda Parker: And so when someone, let's say they're a good fit, they've done the intake, everything, you're convinced this will be supportive for them. Um, what would that journey look like? Is that, you know, do people come in for one day? Is it a couple of hours or is it, do you do these retreats over many days? So what, what's that like for you?

Jessika Lagarde: Hmm. So for, uh, 2 0 1 session or one-on-one individual session or

a days? 

Amanda Parker: two on one, is that like two facilitators, one? Okay.

Jessika Lagarde: sometimes. Um, so most of my work I do with women.

Uh, and then I do in one on one sessions, but if I am to have a Mayo client, then I will work with another guide or another facilitator who is going to be a Mayo as well. Um, at times, uh, I do like to work, um, with a partner guide in general, just because, uh, you have like. Parental figures [00:45:00] holding the space and that can be very helpful for people. Uh, but when it is a group setting, so it's a group ceremony or a group retreat, we have a whole team of facilitators that are there present, uh, for the group. And this usually happens in a ratio of one, um, one facilitator per three participants. And basically, okay, how that looks like for individual sessions, it is that the person will go there, to their place, or they will come to wherever the ceremony is taking place. And in the morning. And they stay there until the evening time, or I stay there until the evening time. And the experience actually unfolds throughout the course of five hours, adding one hour before and one hour after in which I do a check in.

I can do meditation, breath work. Uh, we can dive deep. [00:46:00] Uh, deep again on the intentions for the journey. And also after is really make sure that they have the initial integration support of the experience. So sometimes they feel like they want to engage in more conversation all the time is just like being there.

in presence. And when it comes to a retreat experience, uh, this is a little bit, um, longer. This is like a five days experience. And in that case, we do have two ceremonies, uh, within those five days. And. Workshops that are also focused on, you know, supporting that process, uh, and including a lot of body movement as well, bringing people back into their bodies, sharing circles so everybody can relate to each other experience and that we actually get to understand that we are all co creating this container together. So it's not just something that the facilitators. [00:47:00] are doing, and they're basically holding it, but also all the other participants that are there are also part of the experience for each other, right? Like, uh, and that's the amazing thing about group work is that we can be there and be mirrors for each other in triggering ways or in other ways. Yeah. So this is basically, yeah, how it looks like for, yeah, the different types of experiences. And again, they are, they're very different. So it really depends on the needs of the person and what they are looking for, because as well, some retreats can have more of a shamanic spiritual approach. The sessions, they can look a little bit more, um, yeah, like therapeutical in the sense of like more psychotherapeutical framework and all of that. And some people feel more attracted to one and the other. Some people feel ready to do one, but not the [00:48:00] other. So. It depends on individual needs.

Amanda Parker: And I'm guessing that, um, well, I'm wondering, because I know from ayahuasca that it's, it can be sometimes quite a physical journey as well,

to put that nicely. Um, is that a similar experience with the psilocybin?

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah. Yeah. But a bit different

as well,

because with ayahuasca, you have a lot of, uh, it's quite intense with the purging, right? Like the vomiting and all of that. And psilocybin, that does not necessarily happens. Uh, especially if you make a tea out of the truffles, then it really calms your stomach and you don't need to puke. Uh. But yeah, the funny thing is, like, a lot of people, when they think about psychedelics, they really have a very specific [00:49:00] idea of, like, how a psychedelic experience looks like, right? Like, things are melting, I don't know, like, moving

around, Colors yes, that can happen, but it's not always like that, right? And as I mentioned before, um, the way I understand and I see how They actually work is speaking the same language that your nervous system speaks. And why do I mean by that is it speaks the languages of sensations and that translates very directly into feelings in your body and having a very physical experience most of the times.

And that's how the psilocybin experience can look like as well. You will see things, um, you will. Yeah, be able to have images or memories going through your mind, but more than anything [00:50:00] else, you will feel things. It's a really a feeling experience, an experience of being and being present with what's going on in the body. And this intelligence of the body, which I find it is more intelligent than the mind itself. So a lot of. The stuff we have, they actually get stuck in the body and different parts of the body. And at times this can be manifested as disease, uh, or like when we are stressed, we can actually feel that in the body at times much faster than. When we actually acknowledge that by the mind and during these experiences, you can really have very clear signals of where things are storaged in your body's intelligence.

So for some people they can be shaking hands. So I like, they can also be giggling. They can also be crying or I am [00:51:00] different types of emotional releases. Yeah,

Amanda Parker: Yeah, it's really interesting. Um, it's so fascinating because I've, I mean, I know this from my work, I've heard it on the podcast from other healers and just the way that we are really holding all of these emotions, storing them inside. the kind of pain or disease or anything that that might lead to and the ways that you're really trying to look at what that root cause is to release it.

Because if you just, ow, my back hurts, you go to like physiotherapy, great. But what happens when that same pain or stress or fear comes back in five months? Well, your back's probably going to hurt again.

Jessika Lagarde: exactly. 

Amanda Parker: It's fascinating that, um, from what I understand that you're saying, the psilocybin actually helps you feel that, to actually physically feel where that is and what are the emotions that are tied to it so that you can really have that experience and, of course, in the safe space, move through it.

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah, exactly. [00:52:00] And most of the times, uh, these experiences are going to be the start of some sort of emotional release and some sort of that, yeah, start of that release. Sometimes you have a competition, but other times, most of the times you don't have a full cycle happening throughout one experience. So that would mean that you continue to work through that on integration with, uh, somatic therapist or any other, yeah, means of support that is needed.

Amanda Parker: And I also just want to emphasize something that I've heard you talking about, um, that it's not just the journey itself. It's really a lot about the preparation, how you get ready for that journey, the intention, why you're going into it, what it is you want to get from it. And then after it's complete, there's an integration phase.

So you're actually taking the time to understand what are the changes I need to make or what's that. Maybe inner work or what's been illuminated that I can now take [00:53:00] forward and look into to help me heal these parts of myself that need that work 

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah, yeah, integration is basically translating whatever comes out of your experience into your daily life, right? And that can at times looks like, yeah, behavior change or I don't know, a career change or like. Relationship changes.

These are the, 

Amanda Parker: to the jungle.

Jessika Lagarde: moving to the jungle, these are the most difficult ones, right?

Like sometimes it's changing really small habits as well. Um, other times is as simple as just go get some rest. Take a break and integration can naturally unfold as well. Like, and I find that unfolds much easier if you do have an in-depth preparation process, right? Because that already [00:54:00] shows the commitment of the person to their, to do their, you know, work. And then during integration things are gonna flow much easier as well.

Amanda Parker: So I'd love to hear if you have any maybe stories that you could share with us. If there's Maybe a particular moment with obviously keeping the confidentiality of the people you work with, but some kind of transformation that you saw that was possible through this work. Or 

Jessika Lagarde: Hmm, 

Amanda Parker: for you that was remarkable, that you couldn't believe this had happened.

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah. Um. Well, I can think about different ones. Uh, one is of a client who had a big history of drug addiction and he came here and after one psilocybin session, he has never, yeah, got in contact with [00:55:00] the drug again. And this has been three years now. And every year he comes for one session.

Amanda Parker: Hmm.

Jessika Lagarde: Uh, to actually, I feel like in a way it gives him this confirmation that he doesn't need that coping anymore. Um, Another example that I can think about, it was of a client that I had, uh, last year who, she had terminal cancer. And since she got diagnosed, she was all the time, her heart alert, uh, stressed and nervous. And she came here to have the psilocybin experience and. She actually fell asleep,

Amanda Parker: Hmm.

Jessika Lagarde: which I didn't know it was possible by the way.

I was like, oh, and she slept for, uh, the entire journey. [00:56:00] And at the end of it, she was like, she's, it was actually the first time she got up. So this is why I say, like, I really see how this compounds work with our inner intelligence and what our body knows and what our body needs. And the experiences can look very different for every person and the way, I mean, I can also think of, uh, Oh God, so many examples, uh, with me and myself. Uh, and. I feel like they have been extremely helpful for me in how to deal with anxiety

and The way, uh, psilocybin did that for me was really helping me understand it better and how to relate to the anxiety in a different way, rather than actually cure and get rid of my anxiety. So, [00:57:00] that's why I see, like, how They, they work together with us, but they don't do the work for us. Right. And what we do with it afterwards is really important.

Amanda Parker: Wow, that's really powerful. Just about the first story that you shared with this client who has overcome a drug addiction. Um, I guess it's a bit counterintuitive, right? Because people might be worried that, uh, okay, maybe you should stay away from the substance. But that it actually has a way of working with you just to help you, I guess, see yourself deeper.

To see what's really important to you and what matters to you. Um, it's not working in the same way as maybe, I don't know what he was addicted to in the past.

Jessika Lagarde: Uh, crystal meth,

but yeah, like it's also, again, it's about the way we see the substances. Right? Like in our society, right? Like if you talk to [00:58:00] indigenous healers who have been working with psychedelics or plant medicine for a really long time, they will never call psilocybin, mushrooms, drugs,

Amanda Parker: Yeah.

Jessika Lagarde: sorry. And it's not even the package, the

right package. Um,

okay. 

Amanda Parker: So take a breath, come back in. Um, and you were just about to explain how, like, [00:59:00] indigenous communities, people who have been working with, uh, psychedelics for generations would never qualify these as drugs.

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah. They would never qualify this as drugs, right? Like the fungi, their plants.

Amanda Parker: Yeah. ha

Jessika Lagarde: Right? It's interesting how we came to a point in our world that we make some plants forbidden because they are drugs. But on top of that, uh, psilocybin is, if you look in the addiction chart, that's the most absolutely non addictive substance ever. Uh, I would be very surprised if somebody get addicted to mushrooms because it's not easy to take them and be like, Hey, here's all your shit. Oh yeah. I enjoy that.

Let me do it again.

next week. [01:00:00] So yeah. And this is why it's like so crazy how in in the US and like so many other countries in the world, it's really like in a black list. Um, so yeah, they can be good, uh, for treating addiction as well. Yep.

Amanda Parker: So people, if people want to learn more, so let's say they're not quite ready to jump in yet, they want to learn, they maybe want to just understand what different possibilities there are. Are there any resources or books or tools, things like that, that you would recommend that someone has a look at?

Maybe things that helped on your journey too.

Jessika Lagarde: Oh yes, definitely. Uh, there's a very popular one, um, from a few years back, which is the book, How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan. And why do I think it's a really cool resource? I give that to clients very often. It's because Netflix did a show very recently, also [01:01:00] on this, that is pretty well done.

And I think, uh, if you don't like reading that huge book, which is quite big, uh, you can just go to Netflix and watch that show. Uh, you can also watch. Uh, fantastic fungi, uh, there's a lot of videos on YouTube as well, uh, from the Big Think that I think are very helpful in understanding what, what are all these compounds about in a very short period of time. And, of course, there's a whole range of platforms out there that you can look into. Uh, we do have one, Women on Psychedelics, that is mostly focused on women's, uh, experiences. And there, we share a lot of articles that is also women. Sharing their stories and what psychedelics has, you have done for them.

So I think that's also a really good way of understanding [01:02:00] the multiple type of uses and outcomes that you can have if you work with the substances.

Amanda Parker: Yeah, that's, that's amazing and super helpful. So, um, I'll definitely be sharing those resources as well in the show notes so that anyone who's curious and wants to learn more has easy access to them. And What would you say is, is there any advice that you would give to someone who's just starting out on this journey, who wants to begin?

Jessika Lagarde: Take it slow. I think that's an important one. Take it slow, do your research, be curious about it and When I say do the research, it's not only about the psychoeducational material, but also if you feel like, yeah, I'm ready, uh, see what compound might be more, most interesting for you or where would you go to for that? So, of course, different places [01:03:00] have, they can bring up. Very different types of experiences, right? You're not going to have the same experience if you are coming to the Netherlands than if you are just going to, into the Amazon jungle. So, um, do a research as well with, in who you are working with. Uh, more than that, when I say take it slow is so that you really understand that it's a process, it's good to have. Some sort of support system or therapist or friends and people that actually know, uh, what you want to go into. Uh, just because this is the best and most safe way to get the most out of these experiences. Take slow again to understand that change takes time and yeah, healing also takes time, right? Like we cannot just undo a whole life of conditioning, uh, [01:04:00] in one day. Uh, but yeah, really. Also having that understanding, uh, that is feels like very counterintuitive to the world that is so fast paced that we live in today, but taking things slow is really a big part of this process.

Amanda Parker: That is very valuable advice for all of us. Um, and maybe you can share a bit about what it is that you have going on at the moment. So what are you excited about? How are you excited to help people? What are you working on next?

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah, so I still, uh, do a lot of my educational work through women of psychedelics and I have, uh, I have two offerings that are coming up very soon about springtime, which will be an introductory educational support for small groups. One is focused on microdosing [01:05:00] journeys for women, and the other one will be for intentional psychedelic journeys. And the reason why I'm doing that is, again, You see from everything that I shared with you today, I really think that educational piece is really important and that's where you actually start. So these are my main focus for this year, but I'm also going to be partaking in some retreats as a co facilitator and I also still offer my services of.

201, 101 sessions or ceremonies. So if anybody is interested about that, they can find me on my website, which is my own name. Uh, so you're going to write that down because that makes it easier. And yeah, we, we, would do that whole process that I described and always find out if it is a good fit, a right match.

Um, but if not, I can always also forward people to other people in my [01:06:00] network that might be a better match. So.

Amanda Parker: And for all of those pieces, the education and actually doing a journey with you, is that all face to face in the Netherlands? Can that be done online? Or what does that look like?

Jessika Lagarde: Uh, the whole process can be done online except for the session. So the session has to be done in the Netherlands, uh, for obvious safe, safe reasons, uh, but preparation and integration and the educational piece, everything can be done online from the comfort of. Your home, so that's the advantage that we have nowadays, right?

Like is that we can really bring that to people to all corners of the world in which they don't have that easily available. Um, so that's really cool.

Amanda Parker: And what's the best way for people to get in touch? So you said your website, which is 

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah. 

Amanda Parker: jessicalagarde. com.

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah.

Amanda Parker: And on social media, are you in other places as well?

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah, I'm on [01:07:00] social media. My Instagram is the global paths, uh, because there I also share, yeah, a little bit about my journeys, uh, throughout the world and yeah, another way they can find me is through womenonpsychedelics. com, uh, where educational website as well. And yeah, if you, people just send me an email or reach out to me through one of the splatter forums, I'm very easily available.

Amanda Parker: Good. And I'll share all of your contact information in the show notes so they know exactly how they can get in touch. Are there any last words or pieces of wisdom that you want to make sure comes across before we close?

Jessika Lagarde: Yeah, I think, uh, yeah, I would leave it with something that I always tell people when they are starting to board this process, uh, with me or with anybody else and something that I like to call [01:08:00] cost, which means curiosity, openness. Surrender and trust, which are really big pieces, uh, to have, you know, the best psychedelic experience you can possibly imagine, but these are also big pieces for life's journey in general.

So I would leave that just as a reminder.

Amanda Parker: That's beautiful, so we should all take cost into mind.

Thank you so much for sharing so much of the work that you do and really shedding a lot of light on a topic that people are definitely curious about and don't always know where to get the right information, so your generosity of Being open about what that looks like and how you really help people and how this can actually help people is Much appreciated.

So thank you very much.

Jessika Lagarde: Thank you, Amanda. Thank you for the invite. I'm very happy for this.[01:09:00] 

Amanda Parker: And to everyone tuning in, thanks for listening. Don't forget to check out the show notes and the pod sheet associated with this episode where you'll get all this valuable information and more that can help you learn more about this psychedelic and psilocybin journey. And until next time, thanks for tuning in to Don't Step on the Bluebells.