Don't Step on the Bluebells

Monika Jiang - Healing with Connection & Oneliness (#030)

• Amanda Parker • Season 1 • Episode 30

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In this conversation, Monika Jiang, a German-Chinese community builder, writer and facilitator, explores the profound distinction between loneliness and "oneliness" - a historical term predating our modern understanding of isolation. Through her work building communities and facilitating gatherings, Monika illuminates how our current societal structures have led to increased disconnection, despite being more technically "connected" than ever before.

The discussion delves into how modern life, particularly in Western cultures, has created an environment where authentic connection has become increasingly rare. Monika shares her journey of discovering how loneliness isn't merely a personal challenge but a societal issue that requires collective healing. She emphasizes that true connection often requires stepping away from the performative aspects of social media and professional life to embrace more vulnerable, authentic interactions.

Throughout the conversation, Monika explains her approach to community building and healing through structured gatherings that combine theoretical understanding with practical, embodied experiences. She highlights the importance of creating safe spaces where people can explore connection through various modalities, including movement, active listening, and conscious touch, while maintaining a balance between addressing deep topics and maintaining a sense of lightness and play

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Monika Jiang: [00:00:00] The lack of this capacity of how do we actually connect meaningfully, purposefully, more deeply? How do I ask better questions? It starts with how do I actually listen? How am I really interested in somebody? How do I know what to share, when, how much, you know, and not to say that it's always a perfect line, right, that you have to be on, but just to notice, oh, okay, that somehow I, I now regret that I shared.

too much or too little. How vulnerable do I want to be with that person in front of me or this group?

Amanda Parker: Welcome to Don't Step on the Blue Bells, the podcast where personal healing and transformation takes center stage. I'm your host, Amanda Parker, and I'm a fellow seeker on the journey of personal growth. Join me as I delve into the stories of gifted healers, guides, and everyday people who have experienced remarkable transformations.

Welcome Listen in [00:01:00] as they share their practical wisdom to enrich your everyday life. And don't forget to hit subscribe and never miss a new episode. Welcome to today's episode of Don't Step on the Blue Bells. I'm here with the remarkable Monica Jiang, who is an incredible woman that I had the privilege of meeting many, many years ago in Berlin.

She is a German Chinese writer and facilitator who's been dedicated to building community. Through the shared experience of loneliness, Monica, I have been following your work on LinkedIn and Instagram and everywhere else that you're sharing for so long now and have been so impressed with what it is that you're building and creating in the world.

So I am so truly grateful that you said yes to join us on the podcast today. 

Monika Jiang: Thank you so much, Amanda. Yeah, really a pleasure to be here with you. 

Amanda Parker: Yeah, who would have known because I believe that we met [00:02:00] like, I don't even know, it must have been like six, seven, even eight years ago, in I think it was a Vietnamese restaurant in Berlin.

Yes, yes, 

Monika Jiang: I do remember which one like I have that memory of you coming in. Yeah, yeah. And us meeting. I do. Yeah. 

Amanda Parker: It was so long ago and I had no idea that our paths would cross so many years later and especially both of us are like lives have meandered in such different directions since that point and then coming to here.

So today we're talking all about this topic of healing. through or healing with oneliness. Could you tell us what exactly oneliness means to you? 

Monika Jiang: Yeah, so oneliness is actually, uh, the word that existed pre loneliness. So loneliness is a word only emerged, uh, at least in the English language. In about the 1800s, uh, alongside the [00:03:00] word of individualism and then, of course, industrialization and industrialization and so forth, um, happened, um, modern life became not only more urban but more isolated, more compartmentalized in a way.

Um, and before that there was only the word loneliness. So this This feeling or this experience of loneliness as we know it didn't really exist before then. Um, and when I came across that fact, I, because I love language and words and I always wonder where words come from and why and how they shape our culture and our thinking.

I, I just wanted to Bring that back and somehow it relates very much to the work that I want to do because to me, loneliness is sort of not the, not abandoning or, or eradicating loneliness, but it's almost transforming it and re inviting it as part of who we are and our own experience here on this earth.

But even [00:04:00] beyond that, it speaks to an interconnectedness, uh, of, Us as individuals, but then also the larger collective and the societies that were part of life that were part of so yeah, that that's I guess what one liners is to me is, is that innate, um, interrelatedness. Yeah. 

Amanda Parker: So beautiful. Um, I had never heard the term before, to be honest, until we had spoken, you know, in preparation for this conversation.

And it really is. I mean, I guess it's no surprise that this is the mission that you're on at the moment, because it really feels so important. You know, now, especially in 2024, that people have become so isolated from one another and with the rise of, you know, being stuck in our media and communication.

And I noticed even for myself, you know, it feels almost like a hassle to get together with other people or meet others and to like really [00:05:00] feel deeper, meaningful connections beyond something very superficial. So it's like incredibly. timely that you're coming into this work. I know it's not the beginning right now.

I know you've been doing this in different ways, but how, how did it come to be that this felt so important for you in this moment to really focus so much energy on this world? 

Monika Jiang: I think I sensed it a couple years ago when I was still part of the House of Beautiful Business and in as sort of a community person, which also just kind of happened.

Um, I didn't know that there was something like community management or that, that, that would be something that I would go into. It's also not the right term really, management. It's like the, yeah, the role of gathering, of curating experiences, of bringing people together and trying to find a shared space that feels welcoming and yet also allows for a certain level of [00:06:00] tension.

I think that responsibility, uh, and, uh, This possibility also of, of doing that over the course of many years, uh, helped me to get in touch with people on a deeper level, uh, where I just noticed. Even without them, you know, explicitly saying it. Um, but I just noticed that there was something deeper and something underneath desire to connect to the desire to be in community, the desire to be, or to show more your truer self, not to perform, not to prove anything, uh, which we usually have to do, especially at work or in business.

So I just became really curious, um, about what is underneath this, this desire. And it struck me that that was somehow related to a, yeah, a level of loneliness that is not necessarily connected to, do I have enough or good enough [00:07:00] friendships, uh, or people in my life? Am I socially connected generally? And when I started to look into that, I found, right, that it's.

Pretty much exactly that paradox of us being more connected than ever and technically having, right, all of these people that we could be, um, connected and communicating all the time with. And, and yet there, there is this longing that a lot of people have, um, and feel. And then of course, if you go beyond the personal, I, I think we can see also on a societal level, how we've been drifting apart for, for, this is not.

Very recent, but the, the, the recent years for sure, uh, uh, where we see much more polarization and a lot of people feeling, yeah, not really part of something that feels truly like a shared collective, um, society, a fabric, something that you want to participate in, that you're not just consuming also on a societal level, on a political level, even, um, [00:08:00] something that loneliness can, can reveal, um, of, of what we might've lost and how we can.

Amanda Parker: It's interesting too because I notice in my own world, creating community or becoming a part of community would happen in my life, you know, going to university or joining a sorority or even in my first job it was like in the advertising world and we were all kind of in the trenches together so that like built a sense of like shared purpose and understanding.

And then I think for most people, when they get out of those early stages of, you know, university and career, they forget how to make meaningful connections. Maybe it has something to do with values or like, not knowing your values or not knowing how to function. find the right kind of people, but do you have any thoughts on like maybe how that happens that people disconnect so thoroughly?

I'm making an assumption that happens more [00:09:00] in adult life, but maybe that's also not true. 

Monika Jiang: You can look at loneliness through different lenses and I guess what you're speaking to which is absolutely true is sort of this developmental loneliness as in we go through different life cycles, right? Phases, uh, when we are, right, in, in school, then we become sort of adolescence, there's a time of like identity and so forth, then college, uh, or, you know, becoming an adult, um, living your own life, uh, which can be very much, you know, connecting as you're finding sort of other people, but it also can be quite difficult, right?

Cause. Because you're kind of on your own. And then it goes forth, forth and forth, further and further in the different stages of life. And for sure, there's something to be said about adult friendships and relationships, particularly also for parents, um, for caretakers in general. There are definitely Definitely some situations, I guess, and phases in life that will make you more aware [00:10:00] of that sense of loneliness.

But then there's also situations, right? In terms of, okay, I just moved to a new place or I started a new job. These are like life moments. That's more the context around you changes. So you're naturally going to be exposed to, well, have to make new connections. Um, but I think underneath all of that, um, What you're touching on, I think, is also this, the lack of this capacity of how do we actually connect meaningfully, purposefully, more deeply.

How do I ask better questions? How do I, I mean, that starts with how do I actually listen? How do I ask better questions? How am I really interested in somebody? Um, How do I know what to share, when, how much, you know, and, and not to say that it's, it's always a perfect line, right, that you have to be on, but just to notice, oh, okay, that somehow I now regret that I shared [00:11:00] too much or too little, or I've, right, that that's, that's also something that happens, how vulnerable do I want to be with that person in front of me or this group?

And then it, Also goes into, what do I do when, you know, relationship doesn't feel balanced or healthy, uh, or yeah, equal in a, in a way, any more trusting or something happened? How do I heal that? How do I weave things together again? How do I resolve conflict and tension? All of these, I mean, skills really, I would call them, we don't learn them and, and they get increasingly where they've gotten increasingly lost, especially because, um, of technology, of course, and the way that we connect online.

That is pretty much the opposite of any, yeah, messy human interaction that involves awkwardness and pauses and, you know, lots of back and forth, uh, and online, we just, you know, we click, we like, we [00:12:00] comment. Um, we leave the conversation, we come back, you know, to the AI and the AI still waits. So it's so, you know, it's no wonder.

Yeah, that we've lost it. So I think that's also what you're touching on, I think, is what I'm observing. Yeah. 

Amanda Parker: Yeah, it's fascinating because I've always had this sense that Um, cause I've moved quite a lot in my life and then I always have this sense that the first year that I live in a new place, I always have what I call first year friends.

Sorry to any of you first year friends listening. You're wonderful and I love you, but it's usually like the first people that you kind of connect with that you're like, Oh, thank God I'm not alone, you know, and you have a shared goal of just, you know, It's actually probably just not wanting to be alone or wanting to explore a new place.

And then maybe over time it develops into something more, or maybe it's just you've served that purpose for each other for that time. And then as you get more comfortable in a city or town or wherever you're living, you [00:13:00] start to find those deeper connections with people who are like. At the same level that you are, or speaking the same language, or, you know, interested in the same kind of topics that you are.

So I know, like, I've been now in London for about three years, and I definitely find that Yeah, only recently am I starting to really find that community. And if I think back to my days in Berlin, it was like, it took a long time to adjust to living in such a different culture from where I grew up. That by the time I was leaving, I was like, but wait, like, I've got all my people here, you know, like I'm so well established.

Is this something I really want to, you know, move away from? So 

Monika Jiang: that's so relatable. I think for, for a lot of, uh, a lot of us, a lot of people, um, Yeah, just the, that sense of real community, right. Where it's not just, okay, I have [00:14:00] people around me, but no, I, I can rely. There's a reciprocity. Um, there's such a trust also, right.

In, in, in those relationships. And at the same time also knowing that, okay, I have this network in a way, right, and there's people around me and they have me, uh, and at the same time. I think you also become more comfortable with, uh, your own self in a way, because you know, you know, how much, and that's another point, but like how, how, how social do I actually want to be?

How, right? Like how, how much time is that? Because to be socially connected is not the opposite, um, of loneliness, I think. Not necessarily. Uh, we can seek for connection in many different ways. And, Most people know that, I think. I mean, that's been my experience. For me, it's been, been still is a huge learning because I'm naturally someone who always wants to be [00:15:00] in connection with others and always wants to care and, and be in relationships and like offer a lot of things.

It's kind of like, you know, please let me be part of your life. And then still I have to learn, when you're not okay, I, I. How do I retreat also sometimes and re energize and I also really like my own company but that's, that requires also skill, that requires also patience and self compassion of these things.

So, um, that's, yeah, my, my path still very much. 

Amanda Parker: Yeah, I think that's, uh, really, good point that you're making about having to learn how much we actually want to socialize. And it's such a strange thing to like even say that or frame it in that way, like to pick that out. But yeah, I always just considered myself like an extreme extrovert.

I love to be around people. I love to do things and I was exhausted and anxious and stressed all the time. But I never made a connection between [00:16:00] those things, you know, and I think with COVID. Probably for a lot of people. I know certainly for me that time spent on my own, like in reflection, the time that I actually had reprieve that I didn't have to socialize because I guess there was a story I was telling myself about, well, I need to be present.

I need to be with friends. I need to be out there in the world. So for me, that was a time of actually letting go of all those old habits and stories of like, I'm doing quote unquote socializing of quote unquote connection and letting myself really just be and connect in a way that felt actually authentic, as opposed to staying busy in connection and keeping up, etc.

Monika Jiang: I think that's, that's exactly the, the expression, right? To keep yourself busy, which is keeping yourself distracted on a certain level. And that's where, again, [00:17:00] the. technology and the, our phones come in, right? This sense of, Oh, I'm not alone, right? I can always text someone. I can scroll on Instagram.

There's always something happening. There's always input. There's the sense of not being alone. And it is so addictive. And at the same time, it's I mean, we all struggle with it because these things are built, you know, to, to keep us on there and give us that sense of, Oh, you know, something is happening.

You're busy. Like you, yeah, look on your phone, scroll, like do this quick thing. Um, and the pandemic for sure was quite an extraordinary phenomenon on, on the, from that perspective, right? Just, Um, really reducing the, the input, um, and the space and, um, yeah, just, just forcing us almost to, to slow down and also to refocus a little bit on.[00:18:00] 

Yeah. How do I want to be in, in connection? What do I actually miss? Do I go back to how. You know, I, I socialized before, right, to your point, or do I change something there? Um, and it speaks to that culture, I think, and to the cultural aspect of, um, living at least here in, In Western Europe that I am familiar with and the culture of the most Western modernized nations, um, is that, uh, you know, we live in an extroverted, usually very positive, uh, positively biased, uh, culture, right?

Where it is about like, why do you, you don't have weekend plans? Like what, what is wrong with you? Right. You know, like, are you weird? And like, why are you sitting here around alone? And like, why are you doing this? I think that's also a huge part of accepting and normalizing loneliness and aloneness. Uh, if, if we can also [00:19:00] renegotiate that culture of socializing, uh, to that extreme where a lot of us feel under pressure and nobody enjoys socializing.

networking events, you know, most of them, uh, and these kinds of spaces, even though they could be actually nourishing and, and, and fun and meaningful because underneath all of that, we were all looking for, you know, interesting conversations. Nobody wants to do, you know, superficial small talk. Nobody, uh, we all, we all want to be seen.

So yeah. Why, why are we doing that? I still don't know. 

Amanda Parker: Okay, let's just cancel it now. No more. You, you gave an interesting distinction on loneliness versus aloneness. Could you elaborate on that a bit? 

Monika Jiang: For me, aloneness is the capacity to be with yourself alone. Um, and. I like aloneness more than solitude [00:20:00] because to me solitude almost has like again this notion of it needs to be that me time moment you know maybe it's related to some like expensive skincare products or some well you know something that the wellness industry kind of Offers to me.

And of course I am participating in that as well. You know, like, yes, I love all of that stuff. However, I think aloneness isn't connected to any type of consumption necessarily or that self care is consumption, but more the ability to be with myself and to build resilience and compassion as I. mentioned before, especially in the moments when I get anxious and I get overwhelmed, um, and I feel stressed or feel under pressure, right?

And, and I feel I'm, I'm not, uh, meeting some expectations or whatever it might be to be able to still, you know, be okay, even [00:21:00] moments of loneliness, right? Like being okay with that and noticing, okay, what is happening? How do I feel? How does it feel in my body? And what are some things that I can do now for myself, right?

That will be nourishing. You know, do I go out on a walk? Do I cook myself a nice meal? Do I do nothing and just watch a movie and stay and, you know, like all of that, like, do I give myself time? To be lazy and bored, or do I, you know, become creative or whatever, right? It might be, or then to reach out to others, right?

It doesn't have to be in like in, in, uh, in aloneness as in physically, but to be, to be able to care for yourself. is a crucial part to, to that piece of aloneness, which then makes us more able to also, um, be with moments of loneliness and accept that moments of loneliness are also part of life and, and that they're inevitable.

[00:22:00] So loneliness in not an opposition, but in loneliness almost on the other side of the spectrum, perhaps is for me more kind of this longing. It's, it's almost a call. That comes from inside of us that tells us, Hey, we're missing something. And what is that? Right? And yes, in some sense, in some situations or moments, it could be, I'm really long to speak to somebody that really knows me and where I don't have to explain myself.

And they just listen. There's no judgment, right? It's like a good old friend. And they're just like, I see, right? Like that warmth and care, but it could be so many other things, right? Maybe it is that, Oh, I actually want some aloneness. I haven't been able to take care of my needs because I've been, you know, uh, um, maybe in other spaces or it wasn't possible.

It was too busy. Um, maybe I'm longing to be in [00:23:00] connection with, Yeah. Spirituality in my way, whatever that means to you, right. It means like maybe I'm longing to be, uh, connected with the sense of awe and, and, you know, in connection with nature or something that is wider, that is grander, like that sense of belonging that, uh, you know, yeah, extends beyond the, the humanness, I guess, and the material, but it goes beyond that.

So I think loneliness is, is. Yeah, something that appears when we are longing and actively are, are missing something, um, and then it's an invitation to, to look inward and, and seeing, okay, what could that be? Yeah. 

Amanda Parker: So this leads to a really, uh, Yeah, my curiosity now is around like, what are you doing in this space?

So I know that you started dedicating yourself to the study [00:24:00] and research of loneliness and oneliness and, You know, I'm watching on the periphery and I'm like, Oh my God, I'm so excited that you're doing this. Just watching the way that people seem to be coming together around the idea. But I'd love to hear what it is that you're creating.

Monika Jiang: So one part of my work, I think, is really about even bringing loneliness into our conversation and into the book. And I'm just one of many, uh, that now feel like it's the right time to, to your point earlier, right? It's, it feels like, yes, we are able to have, and we want, we long for this conversation, these kinds of topics that feel difficult and are difficult.

So. That is one part of my work that I do through speaking and writing is really just to say, okay, let's look at loneliness from this angle. And did you know, like, it's like not me educating, but just me learning and then thinking and putting something out and inviting into a [00:25:00] conversation. So that is the first, uh, layer in a way just to, um, see how do people respond.

And that was, you know, one of the first things I started with because I had no idea. I, I kind of sensed, yes, there will surely be some people who will resonate, but I did not expect that, um, I mean, so many sounds now crazy, but like the, the, the response would be so genuine, um, of many different people, whether they're like many different ages, different life circumstances, different cultures, um, you know, spaces, uh, of, of even in business and organizations.

I brought it in there and also, of course, outside of that and individuals gathering. So I didn't really expect it to. To, to be met with such openness, but that is one part of the work. And then, um, when I laid sort of this, this first layer, then I invite into [00:26:00] gatherings. So I host my own community gatherings or I bring them into other spaces.

Um, and these. Gatherings, these spaces are, I mean, I've done them online and also in person, um, and it's possible to do it in, in both ways for sure. But they really invite for us to explore connection. What is true connection and true community through that experience of loneliness. So the first part usually is around, again, Offering and sharing, um, insights, learnings, perspectives on loneliness and seeing what are all of the nuances of loneliness.

Like, wow, that's crazy actually. And it's really beautiful when people share from their own experiences, what they've observed, what they're observing from, you know, the people that they work with, their families, their children and so forth. And then the other part that is always connected with somatic [00:27:00] practices, embodiment, movement, joy, play, uh, is exploring connection, right?

Exploring connection through body language, through meeting, through touch, consent, a consensual touch, um, you know, on the shoulders and like moving, mirroring movements, like really exploring all of those scientific things of like mirror neurons and da da and like Really feeling, yeah, how, how is that to, to do that with a stranger, you know, and of course people are hesitant as I would be, uh, but then the, the embodiment and, uh, the movement always unlock something very precious, that there is this unspoken, Trust is a big word, but there is a sense of, like, willingness to, to, to trust and to be trusted, and then I kind of invite them to go deeper into a, usually a, a one on one sharing, um, practice of active listening and reflection, um, which is always very, um, [00:28:00] yeah, very, very tender and, and a soft space to, to be, to be truly listened to by someone as you're sharing something very vulnerable to, um, from yourself, uh, and then also to witness some, someone else in that is, is very precious, right?

Cause it's such a rare thing. At least that's what people tell me is to, to be seen in a. Again, non judgmental, safe space with someone that you don't know, um, and, uh, so that part I think, again, is, is about, okay, what are the skills, what are the capacities, even something as simple, and it's not that simple, um, as, as active listening, right, and paying attention and being present and being aware of what's happening inside of your body, like all of those things, um, Yeah, I'm trying to sprinkle them into the spaces, uh, and to do that always with, uh, [00:29:00] with, with some ingredients of, of playing, creativity, um, and, uh, and lightness so that it, you know, can hold the balance of heavy, um, very, very intimate.

Uh, experiences and a topic like loneliness and aloneness, uh, and, and connection relationships. 

Amanda Parker: So it sounds like you're giving people a space to first just get that understanding of what loneliness even is, and aloneness and what those words actually mean in the grander scheme of things, but also in their life, already making people feel less alone.

Yeah. So like, even that conversation is just, ah, okay. I'm not the only one who feels this way or who notices this and then you're actually equipping them with tools and methods to create more connection in their lives. 

Monika Jiang: Yes, yeah, that captures it very, very well. That's at least my, and that's exactly the [00:30:00] intention, right?

To also bridge that perhaps theoretical or, you know, academic and philosophical thought. You know, oneliness is like, okay, sounds great. But then, you know, the practice, really coming back to the practice, where can we start? Right? Where, for myself, like, where can I start with myself, but then also connecting with others?

Um, what can I bring, uh, into my life that feels, um, yeah, grounded in a way that, that's really important for me to, to, to kind of bridge both of these sides. Yeah. 

Amanda Parker: And is there, like, any sort of trend that you notice with who shows up to these gatherings that you hold? I've been 

Monika Jiang: surprised at the, yeah, at the diversity of people who come for different reasons.

So I would say there's definitely a group of people who come who are just generally, you know, on a Path of self [00:31:00] discovery, self development. Um, perhaps they come more from the space of mindfulness, um, uh, compassion, like that, that kind of, uh, space or somatic work, inner work, I would say. They're just naturally interested and curious, uh, about the topic they're aware, um, it's kind of this group of people, but then others also come for very personal.

I mean, of course, because they are, perhaps they're feeling, um, you know, lonely because they've, or they're looking for new connections because of moving to a new place or something like that, or not being, uh, Right, being an expat that, of course, that like all of these like groups for sure are having a background, a different cultural background or so.

Um, those people are also kind of naturally gravitating to community spaces, still orienting, still finding. And then there's also people who [00:32:00] come because um, their parents and their, or their Yeah, they, they come out of also a personal reason, but they also look towards the, the next generation and, uh, or leaders, right?

I've, I've just had a conversation with a, with a group of, of managers inside of a big, uh, corporate. And the, the one topic that we stuck with was sort of the generational divide, uh, because they also as leaders. From Gen X, um, mostly Gen X or millennial generation, they see that, you know, that disconnect really with, uh, often with the Gen, Gen Z, um, employees or team members.

And at the same time they realize, Hey, we're not that far apart. It's just, we speak perhaps different languages or for sure different languages. Um, but really what it comes down to is, is shared. So they're also very curious to see how do we. Bring it into our work culture in a way. So yeah, people come for, for [00:33:00] different, for, from different backgrounds and for different reasons.

Amanda Parker: And it's like, um, equally men and women or different ages? Yeah, no. 

Monika Jiang: Um, definitely not. Uh, that for sure there's more, um, women or, or people who identify as female or non binary who are. Um, showing up, especially to the gatherings, um, then. than men, uh, and that was one topic that I pretty early on. I mean, early this year kind of noticed and I was like, Hmm, why is that?

Why, you know? And I was like, is it me? And then once I got past that point, I was like, okay, it's not just me, but it is, uh, something, something larger. Uh, and I talked to other people, of course, who work in similar spaces, let's say in the, the larger space of, uh, You know, consciousness, healing, transformative work, inner work, relational work.

And [00:34:00] they all said like, you know, if you have one, one man, uh, the one man quota in your course or in your group, that's already good, you know, um, one is better than none. And I was like, really? So I kind of, um, yeah, took a little, not detour, but, uh, I dove into an exploration there and, um, Wanted to learn about how masculinity and I guess how, how boys are being raised in our culture and then grow up as, um, men in our society.

Uh, how that plays actually into a deep level of disconnection and loneliness. Um, when we look at statistics, we know that men are, um, predominantly, uh, Lonely, uh, and, and also for later stages in life in particular, where women are, if it's a heterosexual relationship, usually the, the woman would be in that relationship will be more responsible for the socializing, for the [00:35:00] friendships to maintain that.

that is very real. So not to get too deep into this, but it's very, very interesting. I think the, the relation between men being very much affected, also knowing that, and yet not having enough spaces, safe spaces where they can, yeah, share sort of about their longings, their issues and working through it.

It's happening now more and more, like these men, men's circles that are held by men and offered by men, foremen, but, uh, it's still a very, very long way to go. So I, I see that in my gatherings that the ratio is, is more than one for sure, but it's definitely not 50 50 yet, no. 

Amanda Parker: Yeah, no, I was curious about that.

I mean, I had, um, a guest on the podcast recently, just a couple of episodes ago, who was talking about men's work. So he's based here in the UK, and it came from a place of like, him [00:36:00] doing that work really came from a place of a part of his own journey and life where he didn't have that support system.

Yeah, and had actually found that he was quite dependent on his wife to take care of all of those needs for him. And then, at some point in the relationship realized like, okay, actually, like, I need to actually carry my weight and figure this out on my own and found himself into, like, found his way into a men's circle by accident.

Um, but just the work that he was doing to create some of those safe spaces, because I could imagine that Yeah, I could imagine maybe my own partner, you know, hearing like, Oh, we're gonna have a gathering on loneliness and he'd be like, Okay, you know, like, or not really understanding what that's for or what that means.

Monika Jiang: Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I would say the, the stigma is, um, perhaps the stigma is even a little bit higher for topics like Loneliness, uh, or anything that [00:37:00] sounds softer, uh, right? And, and speaks to sort of that relational aspect or inner, inner work. There's kind of a natural resistance to it. Oh, okay.

Vulnerability? Not sure. You know, like sounds like something I, I'm not sure if I want to be part of that, uh, which is understandable. And it's, it's not just, of course, not just men who respond like that. Um, that, that's a big, um, That's a big piece, for sure, that will take time, I think, uh, for loneliness in particular.

Amanda Parker: Mm. And, um, are you seeing any, like, impact of the work? Have you heard feedback? Like, what's, what's happening when people are leaving these gatherings? 

Monika Jiang: Yeah, I mean, people are usually surprised, um, because they, I mean, they're very brave. I always tell them that because I really find that, um, to brave to, to show up to something that you really don't know what it [00:38:00] is.

And it has the word loneliness somewhere in the description and connection and all sounds like, what is that? And then, you know, I challenged them of course, to, to do some things that they usually wouldn't. And if I would have. Explicitly, you know, put it into the description. They would probably, some of them would have said like, maybe not, uh, you know, I don't know if I want to do that, but they're surprised always how they feel afterwards and I can, I can feel it, uh, you know, how the energy shifts a little bit from the moment people come in.

And the moment they leave that for me, this is the, the indicator in a way. Um, even though that cannot be measured with a specific, uh, KPI or metric, but for me, that is always a sign when there is a sense of lightness and fullness almost, and people not leave like overly joyful or anything like that. It's not that it's, it's [00:39:00] more the sense of, Oh, I experienced something that went deeper than I.

expected it would and I opened myself a little bit more than I normally, normally do. And it felt rewarding and I feel great. So that's what, what I've been hearing, uh, right. That, that people are kind of surprised and grateful that. for, for themselves, that, that they've taken this, um, leap of faith, um, to, to go in.

And then they learn, uh, for sure, about, especially from other people. How do other people think and, um, work, right? with their connections and relationships? How do they? Deal with moments of loneliness. Um, there's a lot of wisdom, if not all wisdom in the group and the collective. Um, every time people start to share.

And even if you don't feel compelled to share, just to listen, um, [00:40:00] people leave with a sense of, okay, first, I'm not alone in this, you know, and I'm not the weird one. I'm not this thought that I've constantly have about whatever is not, um, not normal, but yeah, it is a shared one. And, uh, then they also, uh, leave with perhaps some, yeah, some, some practices or some, uh, more thoughts to, to think about, uh, and ways how they want to shift some things in their, their life.

It's, it's, it's a little bit of that, okay, awareness of, um, Wanting to take care and on a larger level, I think what also happens is that people see that, and this makes me very happy if that happens, right? That, that people see that loneliness isn't just personal. And this is not only a space where we come together to feel better individually, but this is something that.

Is a societal issue and that, [00:41:00] um, we, when we turn towards loneliness and, and normalize it and talk about it and have these shared spaces, then we also look towards our neighbors differently. We look towards our, the people that we live in the same city with it, the, the person that is working at the Metro, right.

That we pass, like it's all of these small interactions too, uh, that we are aware of. And also non human beings, they're more than human beings, right? That we appreciate, yeah, what is actually around us. And they're the birds and they also live, right? And, and maybe we are never truly alone if we realize we are actually always connected.

There's always a connection to something greater. And it's, it doesn't have to be this isolated. And it doesn't have to be just me caring for myself and being dependent and having to. Um, keep it all together all the time. Like, no, [00:42:00] right. It's, it's really okay to be in relationship and we all want to care and be cared for, uh, in, yeah, in, in that, in that, uh, in those societies that we're part of.

Amanda Parker: So this is where it starts to really sound like healing work. So this is where there's actually like a deeper Healing from what I'm listening to, you know, that people really feel understood. They feel a part of a bigger collective. They have a sense of, you know, purpose and like a mission because it's not just self serving.

It's also recognizing the role that they can play and that this topic is playing in the society and the people around them. And like, even just creating that space to acknowledge what. Is so painful to experience and so many people just well as we're saying experience it really in isolation like it's just a painful experience to feel [00:43:00] lonely when you don't want to be alone or when you don't know how to connect with others or and at different life phases you know there might be different reasons if you're in your 80s or you're in your 20s there might be different reasons for that loneliness to occur.

Take care. Bye. Um, but that there's a deep healing in first of all, just gathering for feeling understood for learning ways. And like you're giving people permission to practice messily, like not to get it right, just to like, try it out, see how it feels, see what happens. And that's like empowering that someone can actually go out and do that in their life or teach someone else or try out a new skill, like.

a new tool set for how to connect with others. 

Monika Jiang: Yes, I mean that, yeah, thank you for framing it like this and, and for, for hearing it like, [00:44:00] like that. I mean, I, I hope I can contribute, uh, to, I think a, a larger, yeah, body of work that I'm, I'm seeing that is happening right now in this time that is very much that healing work that is so, so needed.

Um, and. Is being done in different ways, uh, right. So I, um, yeah, I, I would love to, um, contribute to, to, uh, a piece to that. Uh, and, uh, I see that, uh, in, in the responses of people and in the interactions, um, of people between each other, uh, and also afterwards, right. How it reverberates or how, yeah, it extends, um, because it is, it's Innately something relational.

I mean, we are also human beings. We are all about relationships and all about it. I mean, otherwise, yeah, what are we? What are we here for? Um, [00:45:00] so it's, it's beautiful to see. And also for me, right. Cause I'm also part of this. I'm also learning and I'm also, that is also my experience. My path of, of, uh, part of my path of healing for sure is to, to remember, I think, to remember and to come back to some of the most essential things that we innately carry, um, like our capacity to, to care and to, yeah, to, to see others and, and not just be only focused on, on ourselves, um, So, that's, that's always very beautiful, yeah.

Amanda Parker: I mean, I have to say, to me, it's so obvious this is healing work, or honestly, we wouldn't be having this conversation here and now, you know? It's like, so clear that it, yeah, that what you're tackling is an epidemic that people really don't know how to manage, and I must say you're doing it with [00:46:00] such grace and courage just.

moving forward and creating and trying things out and allowing people to be a part of that with you because I think that just gives them the courage to recognize they can live their lives differently. 

Monika Jiang: Thank you for saying it. Yeah, no, I, that's, um, Yeah, that is true. I'm, I'm, I think I'm, I'm trying to give, you know, permission almost because it, it, um, it seems like that's what, uh, many of us feel.

It's kind of like, uh, am I allowed to, you know, am I allowed to talk about this? Like, is this right? Like, am I, it's not about that at all. Like, no. We have to show on 

Amanda Parker: Instagram that we're happy and we have a million friends and we look beautiful all the time. All the time, yes. 

Monika Jiang: It's so, yeah, it's, it's crazy, right?

And you can feel that exhaustion, [00:47:00] really, and the pressure that a lot of people feel of that. That performing aspect that, you know, you can absolutely see on, on social media, but then also at work, right. A lot of workplaces and a lot of work cultures, um, where yeah, being open and vulnerable and just like a human being still is not, uh, is not the norm and where we're still kind of chasing these external, external validation, um, and, uh, you know, wanting to, yeah, wanting to.

Perform better and be more productive and be more busy in order to receive something inside, but that never really works and it just doesn't add up. So, um, I see that a lot of people are struggling with that as well, which has its own consequences of people now navigating through this moment of what do I actually want to do for work, right?

What, what is work even for [00:48:00] me? Like if, if I have the privilege to think about these things, of course, that is another aspect, but, um, Yeah, there, there is almost a sense of being lost in this in between space and And saying that that is okay, right, to, to, uh, to, we, we can be lost together, like we can feel, right, pain together.

We can, yeah, be, uh, be with this moment of moments of loneliness, uh, but with each other and, and to heal means to always to heal in community. 

Amanda Parker: What would you say is your definition of healing? What does that mean to you? 

Monika Jiang: I guess healing is, um, I mean, that sounds very technical, but it's a process. It's a moving thing.

Um, it's a living thing. Maybe that's better. Healing is, for me, it's something that has, you know, for sure it has a beginning in a way, but it doesn't necessarily have an end [00:49:00] and, uh, it, I almost want to make like this movement. It's kind of like a weaving together pieces, uh, and stitching together, patching together fabric.

That's kind of the image that comes to mind. It's, it's kind of an attunement back to something that feels natural, right? Or you could say authentic, like natural to, um, who you are and how we want to be, I feel we we've gotten, yeah, we've lost track and, uh, yeah. That's, that's part of the reason why so many feel of us feel disconnected and lonely.

So to reattune, um, and yeah, kind of this, this movement of bringing something together, uh, that is sort of within you and of course includes your body, mind, spirit, um, but, and happens on an individual, but then also on a [00:50:00] collective level. So. In a way, healing, for sure, as I said before, I think it is absolutely relational.

I think it happens through, through our ways of being with one another, um, through conversations like these, um, through sharing space, uh, and practicing together. Yeah, I think that's, that's probably healing for me, you know? Mm hmm. 

Amanda Parker: That's, that's great. A beautiful response. Um, so if people are listening and they're like, okay, now I want to get involved, how can they do that?

Is there a way? Is it in person, online? How do you support people that way? 

Monika Jiang: Yeah, so if, um, they can start with a newsletter. So I write my newsletter every, whenever I want to write, whenever I really, whenever I really feel I, there is a topic that is emerging and I need to share this, I want to. So every maybe three weeks or [00:51:00] so, I don't really follow a schedule.

I don't have one, but it's a great way just to dive a little bit into the topic if that really interests you and, uh, That's one way. And then from there, I think, uh, I share most of my. Events that I do in person or online on LinkedIn or Instagram, of course, also on my website. And then I also now start offering a program which is really for people who want to dive deeper into developing socio emotional skills.

So how do I develop this emotional resilience? How do I become more aware of what's going on in my body in order to know? How to be with my emotions, especially the strong ones, the difficult ones. And then how do I connect better with myself, others, and the world? Um, so I'm doing that with humanize, uh, an organization, uh, that brought a, uh, a day, it's a [00:52:00] daily practice.

Um, That was developed in a social neuroscience lab, uh, in, in Berlin at the Max Planck Institute and humanized took this, um, sort of after years of research and, and helps to, to bring it into the public after finding the incredible benefits of that. practice, um, and they built the technology and everything in order to make it really accessible, which is awesome.

So I'm now in the last moment of, of the teacher training, uh, as I'm teaching my first program. And yeah, I will offer that going forward because it has helped me immensely, uh, this daily practice. And yeah, if anyone's interested in that, of course, they're welcome to Check that. 

Amanda Parker: Oh, that sounds exciting. I'm going to link to all of these things that you've just mentioned in the show notes.

So what are you most excited about in your future? 

Monika Jiang: Wow, um, more, more unexpected things and [00:53:00] that are going to happen. I'm really enjoying, I have been enjoying this year of flowing, you know, With and through and moving through life and with this project and with this work and meeting, um, and reconnecting, right, with people like yourself and others, um, in a very unplanned, non strategic, intuitive way.

Very, very intuitive, very, very, um, and in touch with, yeah, what, What my gut, you know, tells me and, uh, where it moves me. So I'm looking forward to that, like continuing this way of being, which has been very healing for me, uh, to use that that term because it's right. Uh, it's been very healing for me to detach from some of the older, old patterns and ways of, uh, of being that I did before.

Uh, and then also to bring this conversation of loneliness into. More [00:54:00] spaces, different spaces, and different, like, geographically and culturally different, different spaces. That, that's something that interests me a lot, is to say, how would a conversation on loneliness and connection and community resonate in a place like Asia, right, China, for example, or other Southeast Asian countries, I have a longing there, for sure, to, to experiment and kind of itches me to be like, okay, that feels very scary, but that's good.

So that's something that I'm excited about. Yeah. 

Amanda Parker: Good to know. Some of our listeners are definitely in Southeast Asia, so. Oh, great. Yes. Yeah. 

Monika Jiang: I'm coming for you. You heard that now. Yeah. 

Amanda Parker: You know, before we're, because I know we're coming to the close of our conversation, but is there any advice that you would give to someone who is maybe just starting out on this path?

Just starting to explore this curiosity? 

Monika Jiang: Yeah, I would say. Tap into that, [00:55:00] um, intuition, like don't, there's so, I feel like there's so much offering out there and once you start googling, you're gonna be like so overwhelmed with like retreats and programs and like that sounds exciting and this sounds exciting and that is a certification in there and to distinguish between the stuff that is real and the stuff that is like, Yeah, doesn't, doesn't give me, doesn't give me a good, good vibe somehow.

Um, it is hard there. There's a thin line. So I would say follow the recommendations of, um, podcasts like this one or other resources where you know, and, and friends or friends of friends of people, right. That have been, Hey, I've been to this retreat or I've studied this program, or this has helped me or read this book rather than getting lost in.

The, the, yeah, the abundance of, of this, uh, [00:56:00] of this space, um, that is emerging and then focus on, uh, the practice, I think, like practices that can help you. So not just the theory and reading books, um, but finding your way. whatever that is, whether that is through therapy, whether it is through, uh, sharing circles, whether that is through, um, first going into, you know, exploring mindfulness, uh, or movement practices, somatic practices, right?

There's so much, but seeing where does it, or creative, intuitive painting, these kinds of things. So. See where, you know, your heart pulls you naturally and then go there and start there, yeah. 

Amanda Parker: Okay, I'm taking that advice myself, thank you. Stop the Google searches, listen to your intuition, and get practices that will actually support you.

Those are beautiful, wise [00:57:00] words. Is there anything else that you really want to make sure that you share about your work about oneliness? 

Monika Jiang: I don't think so. Yeah, I think I just was a beautiful conversation. I want to thank you for sure. Yeah, this felt like a Like a real conversation and a conversation in mind and spirit, uh, and body, uh, which which not often happens or doesn't, yeah, it's not something that I take for granted.

Amanda Parker: I really appreciate that, especially as someone who is well versed in the topic of like what meaningful connection actually means. Yeah. It's been such a privilege to have you here and. hear the very authentic way that you just share the unfolding of everything you're experiencing and creating. It's really just an honor to witness that process.

So thank you for sharing that with me, with our audience, and [00:58:00] to everyone who's listening, you'll be able to get All of Monica's contact information in the show notes, so definitely reach out if her words have struck a chord and you're just curious to learn more about what's unfolding there. And it sounds like there's a lot of new developments that are coming as well.

Yeah. So thank you so much and thank you to everyone for listening to this episode of Don't Step on the Blue Bells. And I will see you next time. Thanks for tuning in to today's episode of Don't Step on the Blue Bells. If you enjoyed this conversation, please give the podcast a five star rating wherever you listen.

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