Don't Step on the Bluebells

How Dare She Read Tarot with Hannah Joy Graves (#063)

• Amanda Parker • Season 1 • Episode 63

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What if the most powerful tool for self-awareness wasn't a therapy couch or a meditation app — but a deck of 78 cards? In this episode, Amanda sits down with Hannah Joy Graves, known to her devoted following as Cult Mother Tarot, for a conversation that is equal parts hilarious, deeply moving, and genuinely transformative. Hannah didn't come to tarot through a mystical lineage or a spiritual calling — she came to it sober, shaken, and standing by a canal in Berlin in the dead of January, where her dog dug up a muddy tarot card from the dirt. That was the beginning of everything.

Hannah dismantles the gatekeeping that surrounds tarot with characteristic wit and conviction. There's no right way to read the cards, she insists, because tarot has no single fixed point of origin — which means no one gets to be the final authority. What matters is the lens you bring, the life you've lived, and your willingness to sit with the images and let them move you. If they move you, she says — that's magic. Full stop. This reframe will be a revelation for anyone who's ever felt too inexperienced, too sceptical, or too messy to work with tarot.

The conversation takes some breathtaking turns — through Hannah's journey to sobriety, the origin story of the "Cult Mother" name, the very real phenomenon of the witch wound, and why making good money doing spiritual work is not a betrayal of your values but a rejection of patriarchal capitalism. Amanda shares her own experience of fighting her way out of the spiritual closet — and Hannah meets her there with both fire and grace.

And then, in the final stretch of the episode, Hannah pulls cards for Amanda live — and they land with the kind of eerie precision that makes you stop, catch your breath, and wonder what you've been avoiding.

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SPEAKER_00

The idea that we have learned from our education systems that we have to study or commit X amount of hours, and then someone else has to deem you ready. Someone else has to then grant you approval. You have to be given a certificate. You have to be qualified. Whereas the nature of taro as a practice and a lot of other kind of alternative kind of psychotherapeutic tools or spiritual tools, or you know, um, you're not gonna get that same path of initiation. You're not gonna ever reach a point where anyone has the authority to deem you ready or good enough or the new. You're the only person now that can kind of green light when you're ready, and I think we all really struggle with that.

Amanda Parker

Welcome to Don't Step on the Bluebells, the podcast where personal healing and transformation takes center stage. I'm your host, Amanda Parker, and I'm a fellow seeker on the journey of personal growth. Join me as I delve into the stories of gifted healers, guides, and everyday people who have experienced remarkable transformations. Listen in as they share their practical wisdom to enrich your everyday life. And don't forget to hit subscribe and never miss a new episode. Welcome to today's episode of Don't Step on the Bluebells. I'm your host, Amanda Parker, and today I am so excited for this one. My guest is Hannah Joy Graves, also known as Cult Mother. She's a full-time tarot reader, teacher, and a self-described enfante terrible of esoterica. With over 117,000 followers on Instagram and years of daily practice behind her, Hannah has built an entire movement around one radical idea. The tarot belongs to everyone. There's no initiation required, no rules to follow, no permission to ask. This conversation goes so much deeper than the cards. We get into the witch wound, building a spiritual business unapologetically, and what it really means to trust your own intuition over anyone else's rules. Oh, and she reads my cards live. So I'm a full convert. You are not going to want to miss this one. So let's go ahead and dive in. Hannah, thank you so much for being here with us today.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, Amanda, thank you so much. It's a really, really it's a delight to be here. I'm not someone who doesn't absolutely love the sound of my own voice.

Amanda Parker

So then we are both in for a treat on this one. So I'm really excited because today we're going to be talking all things tarot. And I'm just like, I have so many questions. I'm like super curious just about your journey and how you got to be doing this incredible work that you're doing. And of course, as I've shared with you in the past, there's like a special connection for me just because I grew up understanding things about the tarot just from my grandmother. So I'm really happy to hear uh also from you what's what that looks like for you in your life, because I definitely have my own very specific experiences with it.

SPEAKER_00

I can't wait to hear more about it. I always find it really fascinating. We talk about what brings people to tarot or how they first found cards when you have that family connection, when you have someone and have memories of of being a child and being around that. I think it's I think it's very cool. I think you have I think you have witches in your lineage, which is not something all of us know with any certainty, right?

Amanda Parker

So that is accurate. I would say I didn't actually understand or know that until very recently. And now I'm like, oh, this runs down the mother line, does it? And I also have a very uh interesting collection of my own tarot cards because of like this one deck that I have that my I guess my grandmother had gifted it to my mom, and then she gave it to me. And it's this like goddess tarot. They're circular cards. Oh amazing. And they are like like crazy feminist artwork. It's like the wildest thing. It's one of my favorite decks.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I'm so glad you have it as well. It's so lovely. It's so lovely to have that connection.

Amanda Parker

For most people listening, they'll have heard of Taro or they'll be somewhat familiar with the cards, right? But what is Taro to you? What does that look like to you?

SPEAKER_00

For me, predominantly, Taro is a tool. So I think it's a great tool that we can kind of have in the old kit, uh, regardless of the approach that we take to it. I think it's important that people know they don't have to believe in anything particular uh to work with Taro. Um, and it is essentially a deck of cards, usually a traditional deck. We have 78 cards, 22 of them are kind of a big deal. The major arcana where we're connecting with kind of major archetypes, and then moving down into the kind of minor arcana we're concerned more with the day-to-day business or practice of being human, I guess. But yeah, essentially for me, Taro for me is a tool, but it's a tool that can be used for all sorts of things. For me, predominantly just practicing self-awareness, trying to practice being present, trying to feel a little bit more maybe connected, confident, empowered in kind of making my own choices and my own decisions.

Amanda Parker

It's such a different perspective than maybe what I have come across when I have tried to learn tarot many times, not so successfully, I might add, that it feels like there's often uh this is tarot, this is how you do it, this is how you read it, versus like what you just described, which is like really a self-empowerment tool that you can pick cards and find yourself within it and and use what actually works for you.

SPEAKER_00

And so here's the thing I would say it isn't that one perspective is necessarily correct. It really is just that they're different. So I think in a lot of divination practice, you know, if that's cartomancy, you know, using a sequence of cards uh or not, there are absolutely places and spaces I think where, you know, the practice of fortune telling, future predicting work, you know, it's significant, it's important, it has its own history, it has its place. So it's not to be kind of dismissive or in any way disrespectful of that. It's just for me and my practice, the kind of more anarchic viewpoint, I guess, that comes from the understanding that taro as we are experiencing it today does doesn't have any one known or fixed point of origin. So that for me means that no one gets to be kind of an authority or have the final word or say. So for me, the idea of your lived experience and the lens that you bring being significant in you determining what is and is not the right way to work with these cards is kind of the most important thing. And it becomes such a barrier or a block for people, I find, when they're kind of waiting for permission from someone to be able to even kind of maybe have a deck or shuffle a deck, or um, so for me, that idea of talking more about it as a tool where you don't have to necessarily have any kind of you know, rite of initiation or family connection or you know, belief system of any kind is just super important.

Amanda Parker

I guess I can say even with the family connection, it doesn't always make it easier.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that that's you know, it's when I teach, I talk to people about the fact that there's a lot of different still responses to taro. And just because one perspective or experience is familiar to us, somebody for whatever reason, cultural, spiritual, uh, religious, um, might have a completely different relationship. And again, it isn't that one is right and one is wrong. It's that there's got to be room for it all. I think diversity in in the in the taro world and in in our practices is just really important.

Amanda Parker

Yeah, it's um it's also because we're living in a you know time and age where like personal development and personal growth is really widespread, and there's so many different quote unquote right philosophies for that. But the truth is that it's just what you find at the time that you need it that helps you on that journey.

SPEAKER_00

I've always said take what you like and leave the rest. Not everything is for you, you know. And it's like I I I say not everyone is gonna like or well, they don't appreciate, you know, the way that uh, you know, I bring myself and my politics into the work that I do. And you know, that some people believe that in order for all kind of spiritual work or healing work to be effective, that you have to somehow remove yourself from from it entirely in order to effectively hold space for the other person, that you have to somehow be completely neutral at all times. And I mean, somebody teach me how, really. How can you even claim, how can you even claim you have an ability to do that? I mean, it's kind of crazy to me, but I I I disagree. I think that the opportunity to relate through our ability to kind of practice vulnerability and share our shared experience is where a lot of us can experience kind of catharsis or relief or insight or growth. And for me, Taro is just such a great way of stimulating those conversations and encouraging that that connection.

Amanda Parker

You just bring me back to my coach training, and it was like I remember for years kind of feeling like I had to just be zeroed out and just ask the questions, like no opinions, I can't share anything else, I'm just there to ask the questions. And I think it's it was a super powerful practice in terms of like self-management and learning that you don't just jump in and give your advice and opinions to everyone.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah.

Amanda Parker

That that's also important. Um, but then it like took a couple of years to kind of reintegrate myself into the work to the point where now with the coaching, like I might also pull oracle cards or do energy healing or whatever other practices I blend in, but I like totally didn't give myself permission for that in the first few years. It was like, nope, you just ask the questions.

SPEAKER_00

I can I can completely rate relate to that. And I think sometimes when we end up sort of sidelining ourselves or sidelining our own experience, we're almost in a sort of bypassing ourselves. You know, when we talk about, you know, the tendency that the wounded healer perhaps has of giving too much of themselves, uh, you know, there's there's a lot of conversation to be had around kind of boundaries in this kind of work. But but for me, I think learning what works for you and feels right for you, and also remembering that any client who kind of seeks you out, you have to respect their ability to use their own discernment as well, right? So not all automatically guessing or assuming how little or how much somebody would want you or expect you to kind of kind of share is has been important to me as well. But yeah, obviously I I like to share a lot, so I'm not I'm not necessarily, you know, I always say that a good tarot reading should ask more questions than it necessarily answers. And and I also try to say, of course, that it's not my place to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do with their life. I really think kind of guiding people in their own intuition is the role of a of a taro reader. But again, as you've experienced, there are lots of different types and styles of practice as well.

Amanda Parker

Yeah, no, that really resonates for me definitely with um just that empowerment piece of I think it's it's empowerment, but it's also like not disempower, like actively not disempowering people.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly, exactly that, right? Not the whole, hey, you're here. This is where you now hand your intuition over to me so I can best determine the path ahead. It's like, hi, welcome. Let's put you back in the driving seat of your own experience. Let's look at where we're at, different openings, opportunities, whatever could be right or wrong for you, and then you decide and head off in whichever direction you feel is best. Um, but yeah, it's something I get really passionate about because I also have a disdain uh for people who perhaps, you know, that this work can be used in a way that would be considered manipulative, you know, even predatory. If people are particularly vulnerable, if they uh have certain issues, I think it's it would it's fairly easy for unscrupulous people practitioners to kind of get their claws into people and convince them that what they need is to sit and have readings with them again and again and again and again. And like you said, that disconnecting people from their autonomy then becomes deliberate, and that's a whole nother topic of conversation.

Amanda Parker

I know that you are not necessarily doing the one-on-one readings at the moment, but that that has been a big part of your practice. And I'd love to hear a bit like what does that look like if someone is coming in to work with you? Well, actually, just like someone wants to work with you, and maybe it's in the context of a reading, but I know there's so much more. But what does that actually look like for you in a reading?

SPEAKER_00

I tend to find that the reason that people seek taro readings is because they are looking for insight uh that is either gonna affirm what it is that they already know or open them to the ability to look at things from other perspectives when they maybe feel particularly stuck. You know, when you're really up close and in there and it's hard to kind of pull out and see the bigger picture. That's I think when a when a taro reading can be helpful. And so for me, I've predominantly worked over Zoom because I really got the kind of started during the pandemic, was when I felt kind of, well, I could be in Zoom rooms and reading cards for people, and it would be a kind of way to help keep us connected right now, maybe help people navigate some of what we're all dealing with now. That connection and opportunity just to be like, hey, have you had an experience with these cards? If you haven't, let me tell you a little bit about them. Um I always say to people, you know, as they log into a Zoom room for a reading, if you feel a little bit nervous, you're about to talk with a complete stranger over a deck of magic cards, right? It's completely normal to feel a little bit nervous or feel a certain kind of way about it, but that's why I like to take time to kind of coach people a little bit in the way that I do work and what they can and should can kind of expect from a session with me, but also what not to expect as well, you know? And and as long as we feel clear and happy to move forward, I usually work with people from about 45 minutes to an hour over about 10 cards, and and the placements or the cards are just essentially the talking points uh in terms of the conversation that we want to have. So I always used to kind of say it's a form of spiritual coaching, I guess, the type of work that I do. But yeah, you have to leave a little bit of room for something else in order for it to be effective, which is why it stays in the realm, I guess, of magic and witchcraft. And I'm not obviously entirely unhappy about that.

Amanda Parker

I was gonna say it is it is honestly magic, and it it really feels like magic when you receive it, you know? So even though maybe you or even myself, like I haven't sat in the room with you for that, but when I'm receiving, I'm really like, oh, because the way that I feel, even right now, just saying this, I'm getting goosebumps, you know, the way that I feel that affirmation of like, oh my god, it it is magic because it's so hard to explain. Like, how does that card or that description so perfectly illustrate what I'm experiencing and what I'm feeling now?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

Amanda Parker

Like there is that third person in the room. So exactly.

SPEAKER_00

That that for me, I guess, if if I could ever get close to a definition of magic, magic with a K, what we mean when we say universe, you know, it's kind of I always say it doesn't matter who you pray to, whether it's God, the universe, or Stevie Nicks, just pray to something, right? Like uh, you know, recognizing it's an element or an aspect of this practice, kind of when I when I teach. But yeah, that that idea of allowing room in the conversation for the other is also significant because if it moves us, it's magic, right? If it if it moves us, there is message or potential for message. And so I have an advice placement in in the spread that I predominantly work with in one-to-one sessions, and the advice, well, who's it from? It's not from me. Don't listen to me. I don't know. Is it from the cards? Uh, you know, and if so, how did it get there? When did it get there? It's as significant as you want it to be, right? Which means if you go for a reading and you think that was absolute nonsense, it didn't resonate with me at all. Take that. That that can be true. Um, just as it's true if you go for a reading and you feel incredibly moved and like your whole life has just been revealed to you in a way that you've never had the chance to see before. It's it's absolutely as significant as you want to make it and how much you want to kind of act on it has to remain with you seek in the reading as well.

Amanda Parker

And do you find that people will come for single sessions or are they do they come over and over and over again?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I am good. Um Yeah, I I tend to find here's the thing, I I like developing rapport with people, I like knowing about people, I like asking people questions. Like for me, especially, you know, during lockdown, back in the pandemic, the idea of jumping in Zoom in order to travel anywhere in the world to meet all these different kinds of people from all these different walks of life and hear their stories and kind of share with them was just I've always said this work is such a a kind of two-way street. You know, so that that that opportunity to connect with people in that way uh and have them be that secret ingredient, that little bit of connection to the other for me as well is all has been a big part of big part of this for me.

Amanda Parker

Yeah, I can understand that too. Like uh I definitely love that connection building. And after if I've done like an oracle reading, I want to know what happens next. Exactly. Hey, how are you doing? Is it like did it? Exactly right.

SPEAKER_00

So I I might have people and it's one and done, and there may be people who love the experience of getting their cards read by different practitioners, which I also enjoy. I think it's a great way of kind of remembering or observing that no two people tend to practice in the same way. Um, but then yeah, absolutely, I I like the fact that people would also want to have regular readings with me. And one of the first tiers that I had in my Patreon, the cult, um it is so tongue-in-cheek. Um kinda. Um until we build our compound, but more on that later. Um, no, with the one of the one of the early tiers I had in the in the cult invited people to sign up where they could then get a 25-minute reading with me every month. And it was a really lovely way of developing, like I said, that rapport and working with people regularly. But I always just say to people, you know, when they say how regularly you should I get a taro reading, again, it's really up to you. It's that when we feel a little stuck, it's when the needle's stuck in the groove and we're kind of replaying and we're finding it hard to, like I said, get that perspective. That's that is just kind of for me, uh, as and when you feel like it, rather than a prescription in terms of time.

Amanda Parker

So the cult and cult mother. I'm like, I'm dying to know how did this happen.

SPEAKER_00

I know, I know.

Amanda Parker

I I have my assumptions too. I want to share what those were once I know the real answer.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, right. Well, I I guarantee the real answer might not be what you were thinking. I mean, I will say this, I've always been kind of fascinated. I'm I'm very into observing religion because I think most of our spirituality or spiritual practices have taken a lot of aspects of what existed originally within a lot of religious practices. And I don't necessarily believe in any dogmatic religion. I don't pray to Sky Daddy for certain, right? This kind of idea of it having to be personal to us, I think, is important. Because I've always had an interest in kind of the symbolism, I suppose, of religion, the symbolism we see in Taro, kind of the the connections. I've always been interested in in cults. I would argue Catholicism is kind of a cult. We have Rome. I'd agree with you on that. Swinging incense, we have a lot of, you know, so, but I would also argue the Kardashians are a cult, you know. There is a there's a lot of cults emerging in the in the world today for better or worse, you know. So the idea idea of something having cult status or cult significance has always been kind of interesting to me, the way that people kind of align themselves often very easily with certain values and beliefs and the way that we see that being expressed. Anyway, so there's that element, but most importantly, it was that me and my best mate, Tommy, were sat in an office where we were working together at the time, and we were talking about how much our lives had changed in sobriety. And we were talking about the fact that belonging in 12-step recovery isn't dissimilar to feeling like you're in a cult. But then we were talking about how clearly you can have good cults. And then we were kind of talking about how weird it is now that I'm the one making sure that everyone on the dance floor has had enough water to drink, wondering how they're getting home, checking in with them instead of the one that's falling through the door, you know, missing for three days. Um, and he was like, Yeah, you're kind of like cult mother. And I was like, Oh, cult mother. God, I love that. Doesn't that just sound really cool? Doesn't cult mother just sound cool? And maybe I'll do something with that, like I'll print some shirts or and I just got a hold of it. And as soon as I decided to take the tarot reading full time, it was a scary time. Um, yeah, cult mother was right there. It was a joke between Tommy and I about how hilarious it was that I would behate be in a matriarchal role to anyone, frankly. Um Yeah. So, and obviously I play on the fact that the stereotype with a cult obviously is that you have this gregarious leader, someone with a lot of personality, and I'm obviously with a Leo Stellium, someone who's always been like, Well, what's wrong with that? Um we we say in the cult, you know, it's it's a cult, not a coven. I'm in charge. Um, you know, so so it's you know, I know that it's going to be important in building community, that it isn't necessarily hierarchical and we move away from that, but you know, it's um it's testament to my personality and hopefully my ability to be able to poke fun at that a little bit.

Amanda Parker

Yeah, and also to hold the room, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Well, yeah. If the if you're doing what they're accusing you of anyway, you know, if you think of some of the ways that obviously people who do what I do for a living are are spoken to, uh the you know, if you're if you if you're gonna go all in it, all in if it's go hard or go home at this point, then it's cult mother.

Amanda Parker

So I had I had in my mind something like Den mother, you know, like thinking of the scouts or whatever that there would be a Den mother. And I'm like, and then she's the cult mother.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, there's also the New York kind of ballroom influence in terms of having mothers who would have whole houses of queer children who would turn fabulous looks and walk runways and you know, give credit to mother. So that that idea, I think, also though, you know, around the matriarch or matriarchy and the way it can show up in different ways is is uh deliberate with the choice of the word mother because I'm child-free by choice, but people call me mother. So and I think it's it that also speaks to that idea of seeking that kind of connection, seeking people who can hold space for you or hear you without judgment, or you know, we don't want to talk about the mother wound, we're gonna be here all afternoon.

Amanda Parker

But I have like another rabbit hole going down after this conversation.

SPEAKER_00

It's gonna be Sky Daddy and the Mother Wounds. What a band.

Amanda Parker

And for your next business, no. Um so you mentioned that you had started reading the cards or using the cards professionally, maybe like around COVID. Can you just share a bit about what was how did your relationship with the cards begin, if I might ask?

SPEAKER_00

Well, the the the cult mother origin story honestly beggars belief at times, but here we go. So I moved to Berlin in 2012. I know this was the date because I have it tattooed on my leg somewhere from in the midst of those like crazy times. I was riding the Hot Mess Express, kind of, you know, fleeing the south coast of England at 27 because having not joined the 27 club, I didn't really have any other plans. So I was running a tattoo studio uh in Berlin and running around the clubs and just having a really good time until I wasn't. Uh, and so by the end of kind of 2016, the beginning of 2017, life life was a mess. I was a mess. I was really aware of the fact I was probably gonna have to get sober if I was gonna figure anything out. But it really didn't appeal to me at the time. But I went out for a walk one morning down by the canal and in Berlin, as you know, Amanda, uh people people do make art about out of just about anything. And because it was January, people had put their old Christmas trees out on the street, and so someone had kind of tied one of these old Christmas trees to the railings on the side of the canal, and they'd covered it in these luggage tags, and attached to the tree was a telephone, and they'd written on the telephone, call the universe. I I shit you not. I'm sorry. Um, okay, so and then I'm like, what is this? You know, I'm not having a good morning, I'm feeling very upset about a whole heap of stuff. But I'm like, okay, call the universe. And if you turn these luggage tags over, they had different things written on them, like go to the gym or call your mom. Or and I so I looked at the telephone and I looked at the tree, I looked at the telephone, looked at the tree, and I turned one of these tags over and it said get sober. Full body shock. Like, I hear you. And my dog at the time was snuffling around in the dirt, and I was like, no, no, no, what have you got? What have you got? And he had unearthed like this busted old taro card. I know, and I was like, What is what have you got? What is that? And I was like, is that one of those? And I barely knew anything about Taro. I think an artist that we'd we'd hosted an exhibition of a friend of mine's uh artwork, and it was very taro-oriented, illustrations of the Major Arcana, and but I I just had not made the connection, but I I knew it was maybe one of these cards, and I was trying to figure out which one it was. And when I kind of Googled the meaning, it was the hierophant, the keeper of sacred knowledge, and I read about how you know you might have belonged to one group of thinking or way of being that now isn't working for you. So you might owe it to yourself and the person you can become to seek other learning, other knowledge, other ways of kind of being, like mentorship, guidance during this time. And I was like, oh well, thanks for that, you know. But about a week later, trying to stay sober, helmet of bees ran out of the front door trying to kind of ring friends and check in and walking around my neighborhood. And on the corner, somebody had created a giant paste-up, like just a bit of street art of the page of swords. And I was like, wait a minute, is that one of those tarot card things? I'm pretty sure that's one of those tarot cards again. It's the page of swords. What does the page of swords mean? I'm Googling Page of Swords, and it's like, hey, you might be facing adversity, but if you can stay strong in this moment, you have the opportunity to learn and to persevere. And I took myself home and I went back to bed and I stayed sober another day, and I started to think maybe there's something in these cards that could be helpful to me. So when I say they found me, I literally got stalked in my neighborhood for a little while by these by these images kind of showing up. And as I came up on my first year of sobriety, I was in the south on the south coast of England. I was like, I'm gonna go out of Berlin. I do not want to be here for New Year's Eve, I do not need the temptation. I'm gonna go and watch the Hogmany on the TV with my mum, stay in the house. Um, and I was in a secondhand bookshop in a little town called Winchester, and someone had pulled a book from the shelf and stuck on the front cover of this book was the Four of Wands. And the Four of Wands is the birthdays, celebrations, anniversaries card. It's the like, hey, you made it this far. Things could get really good if you can keep going. And I I always say that I had my past, present, future reading throughout the course of 2017, and enough delicious serendipity, of course, in that story to speak to why it was I got hold of it in the way that I did, um, and and so desperately wanted an opportunity to kind of show it to or as introduce it to as many people as possible because I found it so spookily supportive uh in a way that I hadn't maybe found in other places, spaces, or practices before.

Amanda Parker

So yeah, that's the that's I mean, like I know it was tracking you down. And actually what what came through just even as you were sharing, like aside from how remarkable it is that it literally kept like, are you ready yet? Are you ready yet? Are you gonna listen? Yeah, like I don't know what your belief system is on this, but I I believe that we have multiple lifetimes. Yeah, and I wonder if you maybe have any connection with having read in past lifetimes. Is that something you've ever thought about?

SPEAKER_00

No, I mean I've I've looked at it in the ancestral line in terms of the kind of heritage of my family in the new forest on my mum's side, but it's nothing that I can claim to lean into or to connect with in with too much. But uh in terms of I've done some past life regression stuff, and um we've done some in the cult, my online community, I like to invite other practitioners. I like to invite other practitioners, so people who can come and speak on a whole variety of different tools. Because in the whole take what you like, leave the rest, it's like, well, hey, here is this that you might not otherwise have had access to, that you maybe haven't had someone speak on, um, that kind of I know aligns with my values and beliefs and the way that we like to do things in the cult. So we've had people do all sorts of there's about 200 hours of different classes and content in there now. I've been at it for about five years. So, but the the past life stuff has always been absolutely fascinating for me. Um, I did do a really spooky one because I have a real uh other than my surname being Graves, of course. I have a real, I have a real I'm like a Tafophile. I'm obsessed with cemeteries and cemetery symbolism, and I collect Victorian morning jewelry, and and I did do some past life stuff once where someone was like, Oh, you were someone who would have been in the churchyards protecting the burial sites uh against grave robbers. And I was like, Did you get that from my name? Um I I think a healthy skeptic is important in connecting with anything meaningfully, spiritually. Um, but yeah, I I'd be fascinated, of course, to know whether or not there was anything that called me to this. I think it's the classic. I think it's that once we've lived a life, once we've taken it as far as we can, which I had done, uh at the point that we're ready to embrace something new, if maybe that is going to be particularly challenging or difficult for us, maybe there is a little help support guidance that shows up in the ways that we might not have known we needed, you know. Um, I I definitely can't argue with the the call. Because I didn't, I I should be clear, I didn't want to quit my job to read taro full-time. That was a whole nother uh spooky moment where I in fact had quit my job. I told my boss, I was like, I'm done, I'm gonna give the taro thing a go. And then the pandemic happened, so I ended up actually begging for my job back because I didn't want to deal with the insecurity, obviously, of trying to trying to read cards full time during that time. But then I was in the bath in the morning, and I just felt like my whole body just went because I was kind of getting ready to do like a stand-up and you know, corporate world, and we're doing this, we're doing that. I felt my whole body go numb. And and clear as anything, it was just like, no, we're done. We're done. We're done. And I was like, no, no, we're not done. Health insurance. I need health insurance and I need money to pay rent. What do you mean we're done? I get out of the tub and I was holding the sink and looking in the mirror, and clear as anything, I it was we're finished. This is not what we're doing anymore. Um we can do this the easy way, or we can do this the hard way. Um, and I went and got signed off from work, and in the space that that gave me, I started thinking about how I could do this and do it for more people and do it more regularly, and whether or not I could ever make a living doing that, and then it just sort of started from there.

Amanda Parker

So well, it's just incredible. So anyone who's listening who does not yet follow Hannah, you have to. So I think your biggest channel is really on Instagram, right? And then you also have the Patreon, but I know Instagram uh at cult mother tarot. Am I getting it right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, Instagram is is crazy, but also yeah, the Patreon is the same. I think if you just whack cult mother into Google, you should find me.

Amanda Parker

Yeah, yes, I don't think there's many of you.

SPEAKER_00

Well, actually, there is a terrible true crime story that often hits the top of Google before me, so maybe don't, maybe don't Google Cult Mother.

Amanda Parker

I was gonna say you're you're the only one openly saying.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Right.

Amanda Parker

Um, yeah, but you've amassed a following of 117,000 followers. Yeah, crazy. And how I I mean, I'm like, how did you do that?

SPEAKER_00

I don't know, Amanda. Absolutely no. No, I I mean here's the thing. I've been very lucky because there is absolutely luck involved, I think, especially these days in being able to garner like an online following or you know, create a platform. Um, in the fact that, you know, I've I I was in New York and I make content at the right time on the right topic that that went viral, and as a result of that, you know, so I found coincident coincidentally or not that often it's the content that I make that has nothing to do with taro. Where I end up with a load of followers. Um so I I'm very lucky in the fact it has just very organically kind of popped off. I think because I'm especially opinionated. Um, but also I just think that my particular style lends itself well to social media. Um, you know, so yeah, I'm just I'm just lucky, I guess.

Amanda Parker

Oh gosh, I will not buy that story for a minute. But um what I will say is your branding is incredible. Thank you. And it's like that juxtaposition of what's supposed to be like love and light and healing and spirituality with like the edge of who you are naturally is so attractive. Oh, well, thank you. We want like grit, we want real people who are needing these like magic, but in real in the real world. And it's you're not, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I just think the experience isn't complete without it, right? Very, very basically, that is often expressed, I guess, in the nature of work that I do, in magic, you know, uh, with the idea of there being light and shadow and the fact that one cannot exist without the other. And and part of why I started cult mother and I have the cult is because I got told in struggling with my sobriety that I was going to need an understanding of my spiritual self or some sort of spiritual practice. But dogmatic religion is something that had not been kind to me and was not gonna be drawing me back. Um, and so I started kind of seeking and looking in other places and spaces, but I just found a lot of pink leggings and you know, tacky, crappy buy it in China crystals and just things that weren't gonna be able to feed me the way I felt I needed feeding then. There just wasn't the kind of the depth. I thought I need something where the nitty-gritty is maybe a little closer to the surface, it's a little bit more readily accepted or accessible as a part of this type of work, and and I don't I don't do love and light, high vibes only, wellness with my work because I just think it's not the entire picture, and it's an it's not the entire picture for so many people. So many people. I learned the hard way through the hours and hours of readings that I've done, how harmful it can be to start talking to people about self-care who are unsure of how it is they're even going to get a second to themselves because of the very real weight of the responsibilities that they're under as caregivers or parents, or you know, and I'd be waxing lyrical about the temperance card and a spa day, and you just I just watch people shut down as I stopped speaking about kind of the reality of their life and their experience. And these are the people I think that have kind of taught me so much about the way I I want to work and the reason why I speak about the things I do and the way that I read cards online. And I think that that people really follow me because they connect with the fact that it's unusual for us to live in a world where people are comfortable with being human and embracing the kind of inherent messiness that and all the chaos that comes with that.

Amanda Parker

I mean, for me, I've only stepped into I guess owning more of the spiritual side of my business the last couple of years. Like I had it under the umbrella of leadership development and you know, really trying to make it look, you know, pretty and corporate and all this, because that was the background I came from. That's the world that I was comfortable in. I was like terrified to be like, I'm taking psychic classes, and I'm a Reiki healer and all that. So it's been that work for me the last three years, especially. But like I've been doing this work now for about eight years with the Reiki mixed in, but the last three years I've been like really like fighting my way out of the effing closet, you know, and and every step out was like and then like wanting to retreat and then coming back, and but we have to remember when we talk about people call it the witch wound, the fear is real because they killed us, right?

SPEAKER_00

Uh historically, especially, you know, men were killed in the witch trials too, which I think is often forgotten, but we know that predominantly it was women and femmes who were healers, they were midwives, they were herbalists, they held ritual space outside of the church, and they were demonized and they were hunted and they were killed. So it does take a lot. It is a big deal when we stick our hands up and say, actually, I have I am this person, I have this to offer. And it doesn't fit, of course, with the main kind of you know, structure or belief system, or and and it was perceived as such a threat and such a danger at one point that they killed us for it. So I always say to people, hey, it's okay if it takes a little bit of time before you're more and even for me, you know, I talk a lot about, you know, when you start a business and you become self-employed, the years that it takes to dismantle that internalized, you know, all of those internalized ideas about how many hours a week you're supposed to work and how many days you work and when you work and what is professional and what is unprofessional. But I think as we start pulling on all these threads of why things like certain hairstyles or tattoos and things have always been considered unprofessional. If we pull all these threads now, we're getting right back to just colonialism and patriarchy and empire and all the stuff that we've had enough of, right? So, but yeah, I can really relate. I just wanted to say it's okay if we feel like it took me a long time, it's because there's so much deconstructing and dismantling, and in that you are confronted with the reality of the way that we have historically been responded to.

Amanda Parker

It's so interesting because in my like recent quest, you know, of like growing my business in different ways and expand, like the oracle readings for me, which are not the same as Tarot, but I use them in like yeah, the expansive way of opening up conversation and like personal development. I've only been doing that since the end of last year. That I mean, I've been pulling cards for my like private clients for years, but it was really the the end of last year that I started to say, like, oh, does anyone else want a reading? Like, is anyone else interested? And that was like I did like 40 or 50 people were like, yep. I was like, wait, what? And it was so shocking to me because I think we talked about this, I think, at the big beginning of the conversation. I can't remember now. Um, like the worlds between strict business and like spirituality have been so strongly divided. And especially for women that were always trying to be a bit more masculine or a bit more business-minded or whatever that is, like that has been missing for so long, that space that you can just blend all of that into like one healthy, holistic business. You can grow, you can earn money, you can grow a spiritual business, or you can be a spiritual person. I have just found that like endlessly, first of all, frustrating and fascinating.

SPEAKER_00

I might have a hot take for you here that you might find helpful because I do a class called Reading Tarot for others, and I think a big part of what I'm working on is deconstructing two things. It's the idea that we have learned from our education systems that we have to study or commit X amount of hours, and then someone else has to deem you ready. Someone else has to then grant you approval, you have to be given a certificate, you have to be qualified. Whereas the nature of Tara was a practice and a lot of other kind of alternative kind of psychotherapeutic tools or spiritual tools, or you know, um, you're not gonna get that same path of initiation. You're not gonna ever reach a point where anyone has the authority to deem you ready or good enough or then you, you're the only person now that can kind of green light when you're ready. And I think we all really struggle with that. But also the idea of making money again, pull the thread. It's colonial patriarchal capitalism that says if you are someone who is able to do emotional labor, if You're someone who can hold space in this way. If you're someone, especially who calls that a spiritual gift, you should be expected to do it and to do it for free. Where's that messaging coming from? Where does that voice come from? Uh, you know, and for me, I learned, or I could recognize quickly that where I can step up, use these gifts, work in association with businesses or here or there, and make that money, I'm then able to offer accessibility in other ways and places and spaces that I wouldn't have been able to otherwise. So I always just say to people, just be wary of that voice that tells you that the two can't exist. You can't be a kick-ass business person. Um, and and experience abundance and enjoy that, and also be uh an incredible healer, an incredible practitioner, someone who brings amazing integrity and value to what they do. And I genuinely think it's patriarchy that puts us back in our place and says, well, you can do it, but you should merely be grateful for the opportunity.

Amanda Parker

There's a fire listening. Yes. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00

It's something I'm really passionate about because I want to see people succeed. I want to see people using these gifts, using these tools. In this moment, I think we need it more than ever. Um, you know, that people are not okay. Um, and and the more that people are like, Do you know what I do do this and I've benefited from it, and if I can recognize the ways in which it's beneficial, then maybe I could offer that to someone else. Wow, that's the energy, I think.

Amanda Parker

So if you were to look back at Hannah starting her business in 2020, and you wanted to give her some, you know, words of wisdom for the journey ahead, what do you wish you would have known at that time?

SPEAKER_00

Slow down. It's gonna be a crazy ride, and instead of just white knuckling it, screaming uh a lot of the time, it's okay to go slow. It's okay to go slow. It doesn't always have to be, and again, it's the influence of kind of capitalism and the way it shows up for all of us, I think. You know, it doesn't always have to be bigger, faster, louder, you know. The the idea, I think, of always being mission-oriented and coming back to the mission that I had with wanting to kind of bring people to the invite people to the table that didn't otherwise feel invited to have certain kind of conversations has had to kind of remain choral in what I do. But I think I lost my ability to really experience that connection. The reciprocity of that myself, the more that it grew and the bigger it got. And uh I always say I'd go back to 6,000 Instagram followers tomorrow. Right? All you need is that base of people who believe in you and what you do. Uh, and I miss, I think, knowing more personally the people in and around my work and my business and my and obviously the cult really helps with that. It's a much, much smaller kind of deliberate community. But yeah, the the go slow and actually be present and enjoy it because I've really suffered from that thing where you have a goal, you have an aim, and as soon as you uh approach it, you move it. So you're never actually stopping to go, oh my god, what do you mean? I just read Taro for Dawn French, right? Do you know what I mean? Like, there's been things happen in for me now that were beyond. I got invited today by uh an arts festival in Tasmania to go and do a talk on like occultism. And I'm like, and I I had to, I said to my husband this morning, I said, can we just pause for a second? Because I need to pause, just to acknowledge that there's people on the literal other side of the world who even know who I am. You know, it's still like so. For me, yeah, one piece of advice for who I was then and where I was would be go slow so you can be in it and enjoy it and acknowledge it and and mark those milestones instead of just kind of coming to and being like, wow.

Amanda Parker

I'm really curious what the difference for you is between hitting that 6,000 mark and now where you are, where the followers have grown. Like, what's changed for you with that?

SPEAKER_00

I think social media has absolutely changed an awful lot in the last few years to what it used to be like. I think it's far less fun trying to build a following or create engagement online now. I think it's really, really challenging in terms of messaging. It's turn challenging in terms of knowing where and how to get it right. So for me, I think back then, you know, 6,000 felt significant enough that I had a I had a business, I was doing the thing, but it also didn't feel like it was a struggle to maintain in terms of having to monitor comments and having to, you know, be I can't use my DMs. I'm not one of those people that's like, oh no DMs because I can't be bothered to read them. It's because there are so many DMs and they are so wild that I just whoa, um I just can't spend time in there. Uh and I mean I miss that. I miss the opportunity of people people maybe people reaching out and maybe having a conversation. And I don't like having to kind of tighten up the how and the where it is that I'm interacting with people, but just through the sheer volume, you have to kind of close the access a little bit. So for me, yeah, the idea of people being engaged and it being active and it being fun but not overwhelming. I think as soon as you not get over 100k, then the sheer, like I said, noise in terms of the engagement. It's what everyone wants, apparently. But I get quite overwhelmed.

Amanda Parker

I I really wonder, honestly, if that like everyone wants it because that's the goal you're quote unquote supposed to reach, right? Yeah, it doesn't mean anything.

SPEAKER_00

Can I can I just can I just let you know it means nothing? It doesn't do anything. Everyone's like, surely that's when you've cracked it, that's when you've done it. No, let's get back to a hundred true believers. If you have a hundred true fans, it is more valuable to you than a hundred thousand Instagram followers, I promise you. Only about 800 to 900 people see my stories on a on a daily basis, right? I I've put up class offerings before uh in reels that apparently can reach 50,000 people and not seen one booking. So I always say to people, in terms of doing your own thing, measure your success by the metrics of how and who like people, who people are and how they engage with you and the value you feel you are offering before you do the vanity metrics of how many Instagram followers you have, or because unless it converts, unless it puts people comfortable with you in the space or the offering that you've created, it doesn't mean anything.

Amanda Parker

So there's something else because I know that we uh chatted about this briefly uh previously. You are a person um who also has multiple interests, and I would dare say maybe different attention spans. Yes, absolutely for those different things. But this is something you've really like poured yourself into, you know, and you're still here. How like I'm like I'm flabbergasted and impressed, and like there's many words.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you. I will I will say this. I if it if it's if it's if the question is how, um it it is the nature of what I do and the readings that I have done over the past sort of five, six years being, as I said, a two-way street. I have to, in my nature, be involved with work that I feel has meaning, has impact, has effect. Otherwise, I just cannot do it. Um it's so inconvenient, but it it is just the truth of who I am. But I have received so much from every single person who I have ever sat in session with. I've received so much from the people who book my classes and come to my classes and share their insights and their vulnerability and their curiosity is their learning. You know, it keeps me connected to my own practice. So I honestly think the greatest gift that reading Tarot and deciding to do this work professionally has given me is an opportunity to get into so many conversations with so many older women. Because I have gotten to read cards for people in their 60s, their 70s, their 80s, and beyond. And I am so thankful because they have been the greatest guides. The great they came to me, right? And I left being like, wow, wow. Um, they I've I've been taught and I've learnt and I've grown, and that's why when I teach Tara, I say to people, I feel there's a point in the practice where simply reading cards for yourself can only take you to a certain place, and your deck will only perhaps start to really blossom or reveal itself to you when you become willing to pull cards for other people. I'm not entirely convinced this was supposed to be a tool that we kept for ourselves so we could all fall feel kind of more sure or more certain. I think it's a tool that we have uh to encourage us to connect with one another in this way. And it is my experience that I have gained more reading cards for others than I think people realize. And that's the reason why I'm able to keep keep going, keep showing up, keep coming back. Um, because I'm keen to to hear what someone else sees in a card that I hadn't spotted ever in six years. Uh, you know, the the the casual observations that people can make sometimes, they're really they're really profound, and they've added really significant kind of layers of meaning for me in the deck.

Amanda Parker

And what else is like catching your attention? So what else are you excited about or working on?

SPEAKER_00

Like, is there I tell you what is difficult for me at the moment actually is that there is so much that I could be working on. Um in the fact that I get a lot of people asking me to write a book, which is amazing. I was I was wondering, but yes, I've been I've been approached by publishers, I've had conversations about it, but I don't know whether it feels completely right at the moment. And then obviously, people have asked me if I'll do a taro deck. So that is something I'm toying with at the moment, but it's also something that would probably take years. So as much as there is a lot I could do and a lot I am potentially excited about, I do work really intuitively. And until intuitively, I'm like ding ding ding, loud and clear, as loud as clear, as loud and clear as it was back in 2016, 2017. Then I'm not just gonna do it for the sake of it, if that makes sense. You know, I don't want to do a deck just because I could do a deck and people would buy it. I want to do a deck because I feel like it makes like a valuable contribution to taro, and that feels really significant to me. So if I do it, I'm gonna want to get it right.

Amanda Parker

Yeah, and I think that's just really speaks to your integrity because so many people would just do it.

SPEAKER_00

I hate sometimes being someone who can't use chat GPD to do like an AI-generated taro spread that could just be mass print printed in China, that I could stick on a drop ship website so I could buy a house, you know, like I kind of low-key some days, but you know, hey, I I've always said if you take my integrity off me, then I don't have anything left at all. Because it really is core to my business, and it wouldn't, it's just wouldn't be who I am, which is why I don't do it.

Amanda Parker

And I I think also just because the nature of who you are and how you teach everything to be intuitive versus like you know, reading the book, your people would feel it because I could even even from the creators who I I love, and I maybe I have a couple of decks or books or things, I know when they created it really in that alignment, and I know when they were like, Oh great, this is gonna be a bestseller.

SPEAKER_00

Right? There we go, right? And it's it's tough because we are all living under capitalism, we all have to live, right? But that idea of just because I could do it and because it could be successful, what is coming back against this idea of like the mission, the real meaning in it, if it's not quite there, if it hasn't quite clicked, if I don't quite trust it, and I'm not gonna do it. So, but I do feel like I'm kind of I don't know, percolating something. I just don't know what it is yet.

Amanda Parker

When you said the tarot deck, which like I guess sounds obvious based on our conversation, like that would be something people are asking you for, but I'm like, ooh, I see a photo shoot in your future.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, thank you, darling. You're um pugs. I tell you what, it's actually Michelle Knight, who is an amazing UK-based astrologer. Michelle did a fantastic deck um and invited me to London for the launch of this deck. Like, Michelle is just fabulous, lives in a castle full of parrots, and you know, um, and uh she's just just turned 60. Happy birthday, Michelle Knight. Um, when I when I got the deck and was like kind of looking through it and looking at the images and looking at certain cards like the Empress, I was like, Michelle, it's you. And she was very like, yeah, obviously, if I'm gonna do like a deck, why am I not putting myself in the imagery, in my own cards? And I was like, honestly, 10 out of 10, no notes. Absolutely love it.

Amanda Parker

Oh she had the right idea.

SPEAKER_00

It's yeah, iconic behaviour, absolutely iconic, you know, and and well, Pixie Coleman Smith did that. You know, I work extensively with the Rider Wait Smith Taro deck, um, which was illustrated by yeah, Pixi or Pamela Coleman Smith and released in about 1909. And the it's just such a fantastic deck because she was such a subversive and interesting person and artist, and she actually has memorialized or immortalized several of her friends that she would have been running around London with in the theatre scene at that time. And when you start to, you know, they're very kind of very simple, seemingly naive illustrations, and you actually look at photographs of these people and some of the figures in the deck, and you can really, really see it. So yeah, maybe I've I'll put you in there as well, Amanda.

Amanda Parker

Oh my god. With bluebells, with bluebells. I I'm a I'm a certified crazy cat lady, so we can probably cats.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, oh my god, me too. I have three of them, so we'll have loads of cats. I've always said my nine of swords, you know, gives us a card with a figure laying in the bed bothered at night, and I think there has to be a cat in there somewhere, you know, on the chest.

Amanda Parker

Bothered at night, clicking your nose exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, let me guess. The bottom of the biscuit bowl is visible. How dare I rest?

Amanda Parker

Um, I see something fun happening here.

SPEAKER_00

I'm just gonna start shuffling these cards. Is there anything else we wanted to talk about or you wanted to ask before I switch gears into reading some cards for you? Yeah. Um, let's have a little look. So, Amanda, I always say, oh, right.

Amanda Parker

That one wants to be seen.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, a card did just fly out of the deck, but spoilers, I don't actually pay a lot of attention to that when I'm doing messy shuffling. So I'm gonna slide it back in and we're gonna we're gonna start again. Um, okay. All I need from you is your curiosity. So remember, this is just an opportunity for you to pause, to connect, to reflect as I shuffle my deck. Is there anything particular that you would like to know? Is there any insight or awareness that could be valuable to you in any particular area or place you don't have to tell me? But it's also absolutely okay if you want to as well.

Amanda Parker

Well, I'm growing my business in new ways that feel very uncomfortable to me at the moment.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, gotcha.

Amanda Parker

And I can already feel that, even saying that out loud. And yeah, I keep going. There's like moments of clarity and confidence, and there's moments of like, what am I even thinking? I don't want to do this, I can't do this, it's never gonna work.

SPEAKER_00

Right, I'm rolling my sleeves up. We are getting stuff in. Let's go. So, right, I have a lot that I want to say. I have a lot of my opinion, but what I'm gonna do now is I'm gonna work to kind of move that out of the way because I want us to focus on these cards and what it is that you feel these cards could have to say. Um, and what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna use some placements that I created that I find can be just kind of helpful as a little meditative check-in, where I'm gonna ask, what is it helpful for you to reflect on right now? How can you best grow in your understanding, your effectiveness in the midst of where you are at right now? I'm gonna look at challenge. Don't worry, we'll go quick. Um, but I'm also I'm also gonna do outcome. So a little bit of where could we be headed in connection to the cards that we look at today. Does that does that sound good? Does that feel good?

Amanda Parker

Sounds amazing. Hell yeah!

SPEAKER_00

Awesome, great, Amanda. Let's have a little look. We are asking for reflect, grow, watch out, and outcome. So, starting with your what could it help be helpful for you to reflect on right now. Oh yes. Temperance, nonetheless. This is amazing. I'm gonna tell you right, right. So, temperance from the major arcana. We see a figure, an angelic figure with their two cups. They have a foot on the ground and also their foot in the water. This is a card that is all about yes, prioritizing our well-being, kind of moderation. We're looking for the right blend, we're looking for the right solution, the way that we're moving these cups, symbolic of our kind of subconscious awareness, the dream, the desire, the intuition. But temperance is also Sagittarius energy. It's fire energy. And in the energy of Sagittarius, kind of symbolized by the centaur shooting their arrow, it's all about being willing to shoot our shot. So, in the energy of temperance, as I want to reflect on here, we're kind of reminded of the importance of loving on ourselves enough to embrace the process of trial and error. Yeah, I might not get it totally right, but if I can come from this place of surrender, if I can come from this place of kind of authenticity, connection, wellness, um, I'm gonna be able to treat it as that learning curve, that learning opportunity. I'm gonna be able to make it make sense in a way that actually becomes really beautiful here in the energy of temperance. I know, ding, ding, ding. So as I want to reflect on also this idea of look, we, you know, I had a conversation with Tommy about this because he runs a small business as well on our podcast this week, uh, answering questions from people who feel they're struggling with business at the moment. And it was this idea of you and yourself being at the core or the heart of what you do. And you're you will only be as well, uh your business will only be as well as you are, essentially, right? It was kind of what we were talking about, uh, and and temperance kind of giving us a little bit of a connection to that idea as well. Is that helpful?

Amanda Parker

It is very helpful.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, okay, good, awesome. We love it. Well, let's have a look at okay, growth effectiveness in the midst of this. I have the nine of cups, right? So, first and foremost, you're gonna need to take a minute to acknowledge just how much you are crushing it right now. Yes, because this little figure, actually, in this illustration, they're seated with their arms folded, they're looking kind of smug and pleased with themselves with these nine cups in the back. And so we really have this idea of you know what, my cups in a row. I've got emotional awareness, I've got emotional intelligence, I've experienced a lot, and I actually feel like there is balance, equilibrium there, that it is kind of solid. And I'm allowed to just take a minute and be kind of observant here of how a lot of my wishes and my dreams have already been fulfilled. Let's go. Um, so growth and understanding, maybe and accepting that there is a really good base as a good foundation. We are ready to kind of close out what was and open what's new here. There is a little bit of would this figure let you look behind the curtains, right? Are they a little bit defensive? Are they a little bit like nothing to see here? I'm fine, right? Which encourages us again to kind of bring that messy, kind of real part of who we are into the mix here as well. You know, we're not gonna rest on our laurels, it's not the most comfortable place. It's just a little wooden bench that they're seated on, but just this idea of yes, but just taking a minute is significant in terms of where I go next. Is that helpful?

Amanda Parker

That is extremely helpful.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Good.

Amanda Parker

It's giving them celebrating me.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, exactly right, exactly right. And I think, you know, especially when we're kind of moving into new things or evolving or growing things in our businesses, it's really easy to feel like we're always at ground zero, that we're at the bottom rung and it's just the beginning. But if you look at, I guess, what in another life I'd have called them transferable skills, right? If we if we are our age, now we look back at the lives that we've lived and the work that we've done and the people we've gotten to interact with, and the we bring so much already to the starting point that we're already kind of often better equipped, more aware, kind of and ready and able to be just kind of like is a little bit pleased with ourselves with this one as as as we are able. Okay, good. Now, what did we throw in here? We threw in a little bit of what to watch out for or move with awareness of, right? Yeah, we. Did okay Amanda hold up. I have pulled the Five of Pentacles. Okay, so in the Five of Pentacles, I can understand the reaction because this is a card that shows us two figures trudging around in the dark and the snow. They're clearly not having a great time, and it is a card that's synonymous with lack and synonymous with loss. It's a card that I pulled a lot when I was thinking of taking Colt Mother full time, right? Because the Five of Pentacles, especially as a what to watch out for, is gonna show up as those scarcity issues. The concern that we just don't have the energy, we don't have the resources, and if we do, this is not the time or the place to invest it because otherwise we're gonna be shut out, ostracized, othered. This figure wears a leper's bell, right? They really feel like they're on the on the periphery. And if you're doing spiritual work correctly, that's absolutely how you'll feel. Um so perhaps as a what to watch out for is that very normal fear that is instilled in us, especially under patriarchal capitalism, of you will not win. The struggle will be so real. Um, but what have we already learned about our experience, our relationship with this card that can help us to be aware of it and work with it right now? I absolutely am afraid every month that I'm not gonna be able to pay my rent or my bills. So that motivates me to do the things that I know I need to do, but it doesn't need to be any more or any bigger than that in terms of the bigger picture. Does that make sense?

Amanda Parker

Yeah, it does. It's yeah, the scarcity thing comes up a lot. Yes. Yeah, well that's and the w yeah, and the wonder of like, okay, but I already have sort of a working system. Why would I rock the boat? I love that.

SPEAKER_00

That is so five of pentacles, you know, because the clock card before the four, it gives us structure, it gives us stability. It's hard actually for us to release and let go of where we're investing energy, effort in order to find stability. But fours, as much as they give us safety, they also start to stagnate. So the challenge, the adversity of the fives comes through to encourage us through the discomfort of maybe not feeling nurtured, nourished, needing a different kind of value to nurture us, to sustain us, to give us that stability. And that is so five of pentacles. So, yeah, as a what to watch out for, it's a whole lot. Um let's look at the outcome. I love it. I love it. Okay, outcome. I have the page of pentacles. Are you joking? Pages are the apprentices in the deck, they remind us of the value of moving with beginner's mind because it enables us, yes, we're gonna be anxious, but there's also opening and opportunity here. In this page of pentacles, the little youthful figure holding their golden coin, we also get this amazing yellow colour in the background, which in this deck is synonymous with a lot of magic, a lot of potential, a lot of positivity. This figure is like, what little seeds am I gonna plant? What do I want to start to nurture and nourish in order to grow that different kind of value, different kind of abundance, to learn and grow in new and different ways? So this energy is great here as well because it's earth energy. We pulled temperance, we pulled the nine of cups, it's all in the emotion, the intuition. It's very hard for us to kind of trust it because it doesn't feel very practical. Um, but the page of pentacles has both feet on the ground. They are fully prepared to do what needs to be done in the day that they're in, but it is the five of pentacles and the concerns around lack or where it puts us, sometimes, especially in relationship to others, that can be a little bit of a block or an obstacle here. So, but outcome of the page of pentacles is well, we're gonna do the thing and have a good time doing it as well. Um, it really is all to all to play for and kind of a really nice selection of cards, I think, in connection with your curiosity, your question.

Amanda Parker

Oh, that's okay. Like, no more excuses, Hannah.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, yeah, I know it's kind of kind of a cliche, I know, but temperance on the table, I think, is a what to reflect on, just to remind you to trust your practice, trust your intuition, trust that that kind of shoot my shot, Sagittarius, because I love myself, kind of trial and energy error here. Um, and we are absolutely kind of heading in the right direction, always in the energy of a of a page. Love to see it.

Amanda Parker

Okay. Now, now I'm in the cult. Okay. Welcome. Oh my gosh, thank you so much. Oh, you're so welcome.

SPEAKER_00

You're so welcome.

Amanda Parker

I hope everyone listening really understands how truly special that is. And you can see the video clips later, so you'll be able to actually watch it. Amazing. Yes. Oh my gosh. And also how beautifully you whip them out.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's honestly, and I'd say this to anyone, you know, maybe if if someone is listening and then they've never touched a taro deck, if there's that little bit of trepidation, or people who want to take lessons or learn, or it's really important to remember the old compare and despair. Because I get people come to my class and they're like, I want to read cards like you do. No one is ever going to read taro like I do. The fact, as I said, that no two people read cards in the same way is part of the magic of this practice. And people have to remember when they watch me whip out a card and wax lyrical about it for kind of a couple of minutes on Instagram that I've been doing this every day, full time, for half a decade, right? So, unless you've got that kind of relationship and familiarity with your deck, it's net it's not going to be as immediate until you've got five years of time of practice, you know, and it really is with Taro a case of just practice makes perfect. You're looking to develop a relationship with your cards and with your deck, and the more time you spend kind of investing in that relationship, the more that it that it grows over time.

Amanda Parker

That's amazing. So, people who are listening and they want to be in your world, what is the best place for them to do that?

SPEAKER_00

You can have a look at my website, which is cultmothertaro.com. I do have a Patreon, which is kind of the membership-based platform where I teach different classes, I invite different guests, I host community catch-ups. So that's patreon.com forward slash cult mother tarot. But all of those links are in my bio on Instagram where you can find me at Cult Mother Tarot.

Amanda Parker

Yeah, and I'm gonna share all those links in the show notes. So thank you. I know definitely a number of listeners who are super keen on learning taro and learning. Amazing.

SPEAKER_00

I might my next, I think I'm teaching my course again in September and then again in November. So uh if they have a look at the website, I do love teaching taro. But the core, as I said, of my teaching is go your own way and remember no one can actually tell you that your interpretation is wrong or incorrect because it's just not.

unknown

It's just not. There you go.

SPEAKER_00

It's just not.

Amanda Parker

You heard it from the cult mothers.

SPEAKER_00

I trust your intuition. I trust your intuition.

Amanda Parker

Well, Hannah, I am so, so grateful that you said yes to join me here and that we could have this conversation today.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I loved it. Amanda, thank you so so much. Thank you for the opportunity.

Amanda Parker

And to everyone who's listening, thanks for tuning in to this episode of Don't Step on the Bluebells. And I will see you next time. Thanks for tuning in to today's episode of Don't Step on the Bluebells. If you enjoyed this conversation, please give the podcast a five star rating wherever you listen. And don't forget to hit subscribe and follow along so you never miss a new episode.

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Amanda Parker

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