An Athlete’s Journey from Struggle to Resilience with Alec Kassin

When Alec Kassin shared his story of how chronic back pain almost stole his college years, it struck a chord with me, Dana Jones, your host of the Pain-Free Athlete Podcast. We weave a tale of struggle, introspection, and ultimately triumph as we unpack the complex relationship between chronic pain and the pivotal moments of life. Alec's insights into mind-body principles and Tension Myositis Syndrome (TMS) provide a roadmap not only for overcoming physical pain but also for understanding the psychological escape it can offer from life's relentless pressures. The conversation takes a hopeful turn as we discuss Dr. Sarno's revolutionary ideas, illustrating how addressing deep-seated emotional issues and fostering the mind-body connection are crucial in the journey to healing.

Join us as we aim to empower others to rewrite their pain narratives and reclaim their athletic prowess.

How to get in touch with Alec:

Alec’s LinkedIn 

Alec’s Website

Pain Free Comeback Website

Instagram

John Sarno Books:

Healing Back Pain

The MindBody Prescription

Misc Mentions:

Nicole Sachs


DJFE Triathlon Race Series

Podcast Disclaimer:

The Pain-Free Podcast is presented solely for general information, education, and entertainment purposes. Any information presented in this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional diagnosis. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast or website is at the user’s own risk. As always, users should not disregard or delay obtaining medical advice for any medical or mental health condition that they may have and should seek the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Welcome to the Pain-Free Athlete Podcast. I'm your host, dana Jones. I am a certified personal trainer, and I'm here to help you achieve your fitness goals without pain. In each episode, I'll share tips and strategies that will help you stay safe and pain-free while you're working out. I'll also interview experts in the field of fitness and pain management. So if you're ready to learn how to stay active and pain-free, then subscribe to the Pain-Free Athlete Podcast today. Hi everyone and welcome to the Pain-Free Athlete Podcast. I'm your host, dana Jones, and today I am joined by a very special guest, alec Kassin, and he is a breakthrough chronic pain coach. He's trauma-informed. He has a wonderful new website that we'll talk later about, which is called Pain-Free Comeback. Sorry, I'm a little twisted in my words. I'm excited that you're here. Anyway, I'm going to turn it over to Alec and let him introduce himself.

Speaker 2: 1:06

Thanks, dana. It's really lovely to be here and, yeah, we have the Pain-Free Athlete podcast, pain-free Comeback. I feel like there's synergies and also ways to get mixed up, but just really grateful to be here. My name is Alec Kasson and, like you said, I'm a breakthrough chronic pain coach. I'm a former semi-professional cyclist, was born and raised in the Bay Area and I suffered from chronic back pain for two years. It took me out of college, it disrupted my life and kind of took me to rock bottom, and I'm pain-free today thanks to MindBody principles and I'm really excited to share and get into pain-free today thanks to MindBody principles and I'm really excited to share and get into everything with you today.

Speaker 1: 1:49

Awesome. So of course, I'm going to throw you off immediately. So you said that you had your, I guess, your first chronic pain episode while you're in college. Now, I'm going to hit you as a person and I'm going to hit you as a researcher. Um, now I'm going to, I'm going to hit you as a person, I'm going to hit you as a researcher. Like, do you find, as a researcher, that you see a lot of chronic pain issues come out of college? Um, because I'm noticing, you know, I I kind of want to say that Nicole Sacks had something where she, I mean, it started before, but I think eventually, like when she was in college, is when she had a lot of problems. And there's other individuals that I heard that a lot of their stuff definitely spiked when they were in college.

Speaker 2: 2:31

Yeah, it's a really good question. So for me, you know, if we roll back the clock way back to 2011,. That's when my my chronic back pain started and I was out on this training ride and just riding along easy recovery ride and then all of a sudden I felt this lightning rod in my back of pain. Like the pain was so bad I couldn't sit on my bike seat and no like no crash.

Speaker 2: 2:55

No, no potholes, nothing, just easy riding out of the saddle and to. To answer your question, though, like that's that started my journey. Everything kind of devolved from there for me. But you know, before that, even back in high school, I had ailments when I was racing on my high school mountain bike team. I had knee pain. I had some weird kind of things that you know, if I look back on it I can say probably this was mind-body, but I didn't realize it at the time. This was mind-body but I didn't realize it at the time.

Speaker 2: 3:27

And I think you know Dr Sarno and other practitioners and doctors in this space. They'll talk about you know how it's not just pain but there are other conditions as well. Like you know, anxiety, anxiety spikes in high school and in college. We've seen data on this about how it's an increasing phenomenon and it's all this idea that you know the brain, the body, the nervous system feel unsafe. So, whether it's pain or other ailments like anxiety or panic attacks, chronic fatigue, I think you know these formative years where we're thrown into a lot of chaos and change in our lives. I think it's where a lot of things can come up, some people. It comes up to the extent where you know it's not just a knock on the door inviting you to change something. It's like you know it's a tornado that blows through your house and reshakes everything and you're forced to really listen and change your life and look inward.

Speaker 1: 4:18

Do you remember your like, now that you've done work and you're reflecting like, do you remember your first kind of a TMSC type incident, like how young you were?

Speaker 2: 4:30

Ooh, that's a really good question.

Speaker 1: 4:33

Cause I know for me I was around like seven or eight ish and a lot of it had to do with school and the pressure of school, and then I was also playing a sport I really didn't like and didn't have the ability. You know, essentially pain found my words. You know that eight-year-old couldn't say like I don't like this or I don't feel very good at it, because that of course that's kind of part of the TMS personality is being really good at something. And then that perfectionist type you know behavior, and I sucked at basketball and I didn't know how to say I wanted out and all of a sudden I had a headache and that gave me an out.

Speaker 2: 5:10

There's your out. Yeah Well, it's another good question. I think poison oak is something that I was always severely allergic to when I was younger and I could look at a poison oak plant and I would start to get poison oak and I read I think it was in one of might've been in one of Dr Joe Dispenza's books about kind of a placebo reaction to poison oak, about how in Japan there were a group of school children that were they were exposed I think this was in the fifties or sixties to what they were told was poison oak and like on their on their skin, and they ended up getting rashes even though it was just a harmless leaf. Then they did the same thing actually with poison oak and they said it was just harmless and only like two of the of the students developed a rash. So if I think back to it, my TMS I think started with um, with a severe reaction to poison oak that I no longer have Um.

Speaker 2: 6:12

But you talk about, you know the, the personality traits of TMS. I fit those to a T? Um. I was one of the youngest kids in my grade. I was one of the one of, if not the smallest boy in my grade, and so there was a lot of um. I was also really sensitive as a kid and more emotional Um, and so I developed these kind of ways of coping and there was a lot of fear. I think that was associated with this low self-esteem and that's kind of where all of this stuff started and trying to prove myself and um, getting into the little league and things like that and being really, really upset with myself if I didn't do well, and so you know all of this stuff. I think when I work with clients, they come in with a certain pain and they're like I just want to fix this.

Speaker 2: 6:59

But, often after a while they see it's just the tip of the iceberg. It's like there's this whole pattern that's been happening throughout life and that's you know. That was the case with me as well. It just kind of crescendoed when I was 18 and racing.

Speaker 1: 7:11

So, um, cause you said the tip of the iceberg, and so of course I think of Lorimer Mosley, uh, who did his whole thing. And cause, that was my introduction to TMS, which I didn't even realize. Um, because I had a hamstring injury that had cropped up while I was training for half iron man and um had stayed with me the entire time and nothing changed. And I, there was no significant injury, it just popped up one day when I was cycling and then it just affected everything and I had gone. I got cortisone shots and x-rays and all the stuff and of course, nothing was there.

Speaker 1: 7:49

And the physical therapist had introduced me to Dr Mosley and of course, the first thing that Mosley talks about is the tip of the iceberg and how you have this reaction to whatever it may be stress or, you know, whatever your meaning is around that pain event. And then there's all these emotions underneath that you have to kind of look at. Now, reflecting back on your back injury, like you know, were you and you know I'm sure cyclists that are listening to this will giggle like were you getting dropped from the group? Like what's happening? Like were you just pedaling along in your little group, or were you by yourself?

Speaker 1: 8:31

or like what was the emotion, you know emotional state of you as this, you know, you got this flash of pain.

Speaker 2: 8:38

Yeah, great question. So I? It wasn't about the moment itself and it was more about the context that I was in. So I was on your listeners in the Bay Area might know I was on the whole athlete junior development cycling team which at the time was one of the preeminent junior development teams in the US. Some of my former teammates have gone on to be national champions, even world champion and Olympian, have gone on to be national champions, even world champion and Olympian, and I was never in that caliber. If I'm being completely honest with myself, I was. I was good, I was. You know, I had a pro mountain bike license, um.

Speaker 2: 9:14

As a junior, I was getting top five, top 10 results on the West coast, um, national circuit races, um, and on the road I um had gotten my cat to upgrade, so I was racing pro one, two and at the same time I felt like I really had this chip on on my shoulder of. You know, cycling had become my identity in a lot of ways. I used to really baseball. I had let that go in order to, you know, pursue, pursue cycling in college. I was going to college, but my goal was to be a professional cyclist.

Speaker 2: 9:49

That's what I wanted to do, and so, um, that's how I scheduled my, I orchestrated my calendar and everything, and so there was always this sense of this is my identity, but I'm not good enough at it, and that created so much tension, so much tension, not good enough at it, and that created so much tension, so much tension. And when the injury had occurred, or when, sorry, when the pain occurred, um, it was a couple of weeks before the Nevada city classic cycling race, which, um, I was going to race a pro one, two, and that's a race that Lance Armstrong had won two years prior.

Speaker 1: 10:25

So I and you know some and that's a race that Lance. Armstrong had won two years prior.

Speaker 2: 10:30

So I and you know some, so there's a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure. And I think the day before I was going to do the pescadero road race in the Bay area, which was it was the district championships and it was like 125 miles, and so you know big stuff, kind of my first really foray into um pro one, two fields, and I was just feeling a lot of pressure from that. And so if I look back on it, I think you know that pain came on as a way for my you know my brain or my nervous system parts within me to say, hey, if you do these races, they're not going to go well, your identity is going to be really shattered, it's going to be super painful. So we're going to give you this pain and we're going to stay away from that.

Speaker 1: 11:11

So you're going to have this excuse. Yeah, that's um. I had um Carrie Jackson on and she's a mental skills uh coach and we talked about the idea of one.

Speaker 1: 11:22

When an athlete transitions out of being what they were right Because, like you said, your identity is wrapped. Like for me, when I graduated college and I was no longer playing softball, um, I had to change my identity and I didn't know, because, again, when you're an athlete of that caliber, your whole day gets scheduled right. You know you have practice at this time, you have weight room at this time, you have, you know, study hall at this time. You know you're traveling, you're doing all these things, that everything's scheduled to the nth degree. And then you graduate, and at the time when I graduated, there wasn't a pro league for softball. I don't know if I would have made it, but you know there wasn't one.

Speaker 1: 12:07

And so then I was just done and there was a lot of spiraling during that time because I lost my identity and I didn't have a ways or means to get back to what I was. And so then I think I spent probably the next five, six years just really spiraling and trying to figure out who I was, and so I imagine for you, because you were at a higher level than I was competing at like I don't know, like, so how did you take care of yourself? Or did you? You know, as your identity is kind of being shattered and you know, obviously the TMS personality pushes us into finding, like our identity almost becomes finding a cure, right, or fixing the wrong so that I can get back. So how, what did you do as a result? Like, were you the crazy person who was just like seeking all the drugs and all the treatments? And you know, like, it.

Speaker 2: 13:00

It oscillated between being that person and then just feeling hopeless and that I was going to be in pain for the rest of my life. So it was not an intuitive and, you know, quick fix, right, which is, of course, what I wanted. So what happened was, when I first had this injury, this pain, I thought, oh okay, I went to a chiropractor and they said don't worry, two weeks you're going to be back on top. Those were their exact words. And of worry, two weeks you're going to be back on top. Those were their exact words. And, of course, two weeks go by, still in pain.

Speaker 2: 13:28

Four weeks go by, I'm missing races, not able to train, and then after a while, the season just kind of blows by me. I miss all these important races and then I start to realize, like, wait a minute, how am I going to go back to college? Because I'm in constant pain. I can't sit in in a chair without pain. Um, how is this going to work?

Speaker 2: 13:52

So I suffered through a semester of college and then I got a couple of epidural injections and you know I was trying all the things right, um, and then it eventually got to a point where, after my second epidural, second epidural.

Speaker 2: 14:10

My pain came back so bad that I actually had to withdraw from college and go move back home with my parents, and I was partially bedridden at that time.

Speaker 2: 14:14

Um, and, and that was really a space of desperation where I was still, I was trying all the physical treatments, you know chiropractic, acupuncture, all these things, um, and then also starting to pursue some of the um, some of the more like the TMS ideas and other things, some which some of which worked, some didn't. But your, your question about identity, you know it, it really was a secondary thing, like I wasn't like, yes, my identity was impacted at that time, but I never saw it as, like you know, the primary reason that I was in pain. Right, it's like, oh, this is just a negative externality of this pain that I'm in, what was me? And it wasn't until after I started to, you know, I read Dr Sarno's books and saw the personality traits and really started to see, like, how my identity was wrapped up and how well I was doing compared to other people, how it would ebb and flow and how really unstable and unhealthy that was. So it took a while for that message to really sink in.

Speaker 1: 15:19

Okay, so as I'm thinking about it, so Sarno always talks about in the beginning it's kind of like don't believe me, go get verified at first. Now, did you go get verified for, like, whatever was going on in your back, did you go to somebody who actually could you know, like give you an MRI or CT or x-ray or anything?

Speaker 2: 15:38

Yeah. So about five months after the initial pain, I finally got an MRI. When things were getting worse. After the initial pain, I finally got an MRI when things were getting worse and it revealed that I had a ruptured L4, L5 spinal disc and a torn, herniated L5 S1. And so I was like, oh well, that's it, that must be what's causing my pain, and I was not recommended. But it was suggested that, after a lot of the treatments weren't working, said, well, you know, we could go in there and you know, just shave part of your disc off and be fine.

Speaker 2: 16:10

Well, not be fine, but you know, shave part of your disc off and I was there and I was 19 at the time and I was thinking I don't want to have back surgery because it just there was something in me that was just repulsed by that idea as a 19-year-old getting back surgery. But yeah, that MRI was really what I clung to and what I blamed for my pain for over two years.

Speaker 1: 16:35

So how do you believe Sarno if you have actual evidence?

Speaker 2: 16:40

Yeah. So I started when I was back home out of college. My primary job was, recovery was getting better, that was my full-time job and I just I started to see some inconsistencies, like I would follow what my doctors and what my care team were saying of you know, ice your back, don't spend too much time sitting, do these physical activities but don't do those. And on those days where I followed everything to the T, I could have more pain than on the days where I was doing all the stuff they said not to do. And I started to wonder there has to be something else going on here. There has to be something that is. I don't exactly know what it is, whether it's emotional or mental or something, but there's something that doesn't quite add up if, if this is happening.

Speaker 1: 17:31

Okay, well, that's it. I mean cause, right, that's the belief part, is the first part right Of having that and, um, you know, with this grim diagnosis, right, of all the crazy things that they can do to your back. And we also know that a lot of times those back surgeries are not helpful at all and people are either in the same amount of pain or more as a result of what people do. Um, so then you're moving along, you're doing, you know. So how do you start to come out of this? Like, you know what is the, the turning point where you're able to I don't know sit down or get back on a bike or go back to college or yeah, so the uh.

Speaker 2: 18:13

The turning point started when I was introduced to Dr Sarno's work for a second time by my mom. Actually, she had given me a copy of Healing Back Pain. First time that I heard about it I was like this is garbage. I've seen my MRI it has a ruptured spinal disc. How can you tell me that this isn't causing pain? I see it pressing on my spinal nerves. What are you talking about? You're crazy. And then, in a space of desperation, and I really think like.

Speaker 2: 18:54

That's when a lot of us pleasing the low self-esteem, all of that wrapped up in not just my cycling, but who I had identified, as you know years and years back and was like, oh my gosh, there is something to this. And I sped, read through that book. It was just it had me. And when Dr Sarno talked about all of the studies that basically show that, hey, when Dr Sarno talked about all of the studies that basically show that, hey, all these back abnormalities are really just normal, like gray hairs of the spine, that kind of put the link to me of, oh, that's why, on days where I followed all my doctor's advice, I could be in more pain than the days when I didn't, because it's maybe not a structural thing. And so there was, I really committed to the TMS recovery process and after a couple of weeks I saw that all of my lower back pain, which had been there for two years, shifted into my mid back one day and I was like, oh my, uh, my little uh light came down there. Um, can you see me? Yes, okay, cool, um, and that's when I realized I have it on the run, this, there's something to this. And uh, within a number of weeks after that, my pain, you know, went down to like a one or a two and I was able to get back on the bike, I was able to to sit and I was able to do all these things that I um, that I had, that I had been slowly building up to be able to do. But, um, kind of from a physical standpoint of, oh, I need to make my body stronger. And then I I, with Sarno's work, it just kind of I blew right through all that, all these limiting beliefs, and really realized that my body was a lot stronger than I was giving it credit for and eventually was able to go back to college and, like I said, get back on the bike, do all these physical activities.

Speaker 2: 20:47

Um, but then something interesting started to happen, which was I started to get symptoms in other places, like I started to get shin splints, and then I started like, despite the fact that I was running like one or two miles, then I got tight quads and then if I was playing baseball, like my throwing arm got like numb and all these weird things, and it was basically my body or my brain's way of saying, hey, until you go inward and start to look harder at some of these personality traits and these dispositions, this fear-based way of living. You're going to keep getting these symptoms. And that was kind of a deeper journey that shifted from hey, I just want to be pain-free to I actually really want to discover who I am and be an authentic Alec. That is fantastic. Well, I was going to ask discover who I am and be an authentic Alec? That is fantastic.

Speaker 1: 21:39

Well, I was going to ask you because I know there are a lot of book cure people out there and you know, and I think that they're really because so much information is coming to light, like you know, like you were saying about the symptom jumping, you know, to different things, like I knew for me, I knew because it went from my right hamstring to my left hamstring and I hadn't done anything and I was like, oh, all right, you're just trying to get my attention. So did you like, was the book cure enough for you? Like now you're saying you're shifting toward the depth.

Speaker 1: 22:13

So, we're lucky enough to live in the state where I think there's a lot of TMS practitioners Like did you find somebody to help you do the deep dive?

Speaker 2: 22:22

Yeah, so I um the book didn't cure me, but it it was the fire starter, for sure, and it gave me relief and it it gave me a lot of hope and, um it was the impetus for reaching out to a, uh tms therapist in the bay area. That really helped me. Um, go inward, feel emotions. See what emotions I wasn't allowing myself to experience, seeing kind of how my identity was wrapped up in kind of positivity and not um kind of inauthenticity, not in a in a fake way.

Speaker 2: 23:00

Yeah, exactly, um, and that's really what, um, what allowed me and that was kind of the, the marathon, right, like the Sarno, like reading the book was kind of the sprint and the, the TMS therapist work was more of the marathon, um, but and it was, and it's always an evolving journey, right, like it still is, like I still see ways that, um, you know parts of myself that have been um, uh, feeling threatened or scared and all of these things, um, so it was this kind of evolving journey. But you know, over time my belief just became rock solid that my body was so much stronger than I was giving it credit for that my body really was Herculean, that all of our bodies just are, are, are that way, uh, so it's 13 years later and you're you're a grown man and you have all this belief, uh, stacked in you, and I know um because I was, you know, stalking you on LinkedIn um that you went for an MRI.

Speaker 1: 24:04

Yes so yeah, like, what do we got going on?

Speaker 2: 24:09

Yeah, so speeding up time. Over a decade later, I am now a chronic pain coach and I'm still developing these ideas of how strong my body is. And now I'm working with clients and recording these programs and all the time in the back of my mind I was thinking I wonder what my back looks like on an MRI, like I wonder if that ruptured spinal disc is still there. And I was. I remember being just giddy. I was in the UK actually for about four months and I decided to get the MRI out there because it was way less expensive than it would have been here in the States. But I just remember being giddy about the prospect of getting this MRI and, funnily enough, after the MRI, before I got my results, I had lower back pain for the first time in literally over a decade.

Speaker 2: 25:02

Dana, it was crazy, it was, and I think there's something about like the the body memory right Of being in the MRI machine back in 2011, when I was in immense pain and kind of some of that came, came back and I was like and that pain didn't last, but it was like, oh, this is really interesting. Um, and then I get my results and it showed literally no change. No change in this ruptured spinal disc and it literally said that on the report. I was elated. It said basically it looks the same and to me I was like all right, that's incontrovertible evidence that in 2011, I had a ruptured spinal disc and I had immense pain. For you know, now, here in 2024, I have the same ruptured spinal disc and no pain at all. Right, it can't be blamed on the disc, it can't be structured.

Speaker 1: 25:52

That's kind of cool. Well, that kind of coincides with the results that Alan Gordon and his team got from the Boulder Back Study right, which is that you could have these issues and that you don't necessarily have to go through the surgery to correct a lot of the, I want to say the magnetism of the injury you know right Like the injury doesn't need to become your identity you know, right, like the injury doesn't need to become your identity Exactly Right, or even be a concern, right, um, and of course we have, you know we're not talking about, you know, a sprained ankle or a torn ACL, these things like these are acute injuries that need time to heal.

Speaker 2: 26:28

But you know, in cases of long-term, persistent pain, you know these abnormalities are just falsely blamed on pain and, and especially as this is the case with athletes, like there's some pretty incredible studies when it comes to competitive elite athletes and, uh, having abnormalities like 40% of um overhead athletes. So athletes who are using their, their shoulders, have a partial or full tear of their rotator cuff and have no symptoms. Yeah, there you go. You're one of them.

Speaker 1: 27:02

I am one of them, yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:04

Yeah, there's some other studies. Two-thirds of pro and collegiate hockey players have degenerative changes in their hips no pain. 80% of elite rock climbers shoulder issues no pain. 50% of NBA players have lesions on their knees no symptoms. It's, and you know, when you think of the rigor that these athletes are putting their bodies through on a day-to-day basis, you know, when we compare it to you know us like the more recreational or even competitive amateur athletes, like you know it's it kind of gives like an amount of solace of like well, if they're putting their bodies through that and they have these abnormalities and they don't have symptoms. You know, maybe I'm actually OK too you know, maybe I'm actually okay too.

Speaker 1: 27:57

I think sometimes people can believe that. And then other times I think that, uh, you know, there's this weird camaraderie about sharing your pain stories and, and I don't know if it's for I mean, it seems to be like especially I'm noticing it in the triathlon world, and I don't know if it's because all the athletes I'm around are older. So then we have a lot more to complain about. I don't know if young people do the same thing, but it's just there's always like oh, I got a knee thing. Oh, yeah, you know, plantar fasciitis is another one that shows up all the time that I hear a lot of people complain about.

Speaker 1: 28:29

And then, of course, like in my coaching practice, I'm running into a lot of, like hip replacement, knee replacements, you know, shoulder surgeries, uh, those types of things. So, you know, athletes in whole, I think, are um, a lot. I guess the most curious thing and I don't you have to tell me if you uh come across this in your coaching practice is that the athletes don't let go of the injury that they had from, you know, when they're 15 years old. You know, like, oh, I um, you know, like, for me, like I had tendonitis in my elbow, um, but a lot of people like, oh I, you know, I broke my whatever ankle and now, you know, when it rains, I feel this, or like stuff.

Speaker 1: 29:14

And I don't know if that's actually true, because I noticed like my shit doesn't change when it rains, so I don't know. You know, like my, like I said, my my rotator cuff is torn and you know it is what it is and I can.

Speaker 1: 29:26

I feel it when I try to extend beyond its capabilities. You know, and it's not a pain, it's just a weakness, right Cause whatever was supposed to be there holding everything in place is no longer there. So you know, that's kind of what I feel. But do you find that athletes um, I don't almost wear their injury injuries like a badge of honor, like there's gotta be a little ego around, like I can't believe you, coach, because I know that I broke this shit and you know it hasn't been right since? Like do you run into that?

Speaker 2: 29:58

I do and the people who. Well, I run into that. Not necessarily with clients, because if somebody's coming to me and they're you know, they're probably already in the mindset.

Speaker 1: 30:11

They're already in the mindset.

Speaker 2: 30:12

But that is such a common thing of what you just touched on, like in my. The way I think about it is we essentially have two ways that symptoms can be created. One is you know the emotional realm right created. One is you know the emotional realm right Repressed emotions or trauma or stressors that we're going through that create, you know emotional responses. And then we have the beliefs right, kind of the more mental side, and it is so easy to fall prey to societal conditioning around the weakness of our bodies. You know it's like you For years and years and years.

Speaker 2: 30:48

You grow up watching basketball. You see Icy Hot commercials and you see Shaq, right, as an eight-year-old kid, you see him doing these Icy Hot commercials and you're like, oh, okay, if I get pain or something then I'll use Icy Hot or whatever. And so maybe 10 years later you're out on the basketball court and then you bend down and you feel pain and you're like, oh, what was that? Okay, you get your icy hot and then you you talk to people and say, oh, ice your back and do all these things and and do all these ways uh, do all these things to to heal that are mechanical in nature, right, if things get worse. Then you have friends or folks who say, oh, you know, you have to see my surgeon, he's the best. Or, oh, use this back pillow because it's amazing. Or, oh, you need to have orthotics. My chiropractor yeah, there you go. It's everywhere. It really is everywhere.

Speaker 2: 31:41

And so it becomes so easy to fall into that idea that there is something wrong with our bodies, and oftentimes it takes a lot of courage to courage and open-mindedness to start to question that. And it doesn't mean this is the thing too Like. I get people saying, like, are you just saying that the pain is all in my head? If, if that's the case, like I don't have this injury or I'm making it all up, of course not.

Speaker 2: 32:11

Anybody who says that your pain isn't real is just being dismissive, or they don't understand what's going on, because all of the science shows us that, one, real physiological changes take place in the body as a result of the TMS process. Right, you know, it's not just you're making this up. And two, we're not consciously controlling it. Right, you know there might be, yes, secondary gain, like I had mentioned from my story, of not having to put myself into a race where I was maybe going to be embarrassed, not having to put myself into a race where I was maybe going to be embarrassed. I'm not doing that consciously. I don't think there's really anybody who would say they would take their chronic pain over being emotionally affected in some way by something going on in their lives, right.

Speaker 1: 32:59

Well, if we were capable of thinking our way out of our pain, it would have been gone a long time ago.

Speaker 2: 33:03

Exactly, exactly so. The societal conditioning piece and wearing the injury as a badge of honor is something that really needs to be dropped before the healing can happen.

Speaker 1: 33:14

So you um got your all your certifications and such and you were doing your own coaching. And then you meet up with Miriam.

Speaker 2: 33:26

Yes.

Speaker 1: 33:27

And tell us about what you got going on with her and who's your co-founder for your new adventure.

Speaker 2: 33:35

Yeah, so Miriam Gauchi-Bangiovanni. She's a mentor of mine and a fellow chronic pain coach. She's based out of Malta, actually, and she runs the website Pain Outside the Box, and she was a rock climber and she was diagnosed with Hegel legions in her shoulder and was essentially told by a doctor that she wouldn't be able to rock climb again because she was in immense pain. And you know, she went through her own journey of uh, feeling like her identity and her joys and passions were ripped away and is pain-free today. And, um, she approached me with this idea of she knew my background as a cyclist. She was like, do you want to create a program for athletes? And I was like, Ooh, that is literally in the center of my bullseye, I would love to.

Speaker 2: 34:26

So what we did is, um, we created this program called pain-free comeback, which is the uh only uh self-directed mind body program for athletes with chronic pain. The whole idea is, um, being able to help them get back to their favorite activities, reduce mental pressure and achieve next level athletic performance. Because that is, I think, one of the really exciting things about being an athlete and doing the TMS work, is that not only can it help you become pain-free and get back to your activities and help you also. You know age with, with grace and without fear, but it can really help you achieve in if you're competing right. Um, the same principles that uh are used for for pain elimination apply to peak performance. So, um, we created this program called pain-free comeback to help people do just that so what is the um?

Speaker 1: 35:29

you know not. I get well, I guess people are going to go to your website anyway, but I'm going to direct it. So how do you do this study um, because I know, like for you, know other things. I've done a lot of. It's been written, which kind of feels a little lonely um in terms of like. So how do you hope that people receive the information and like? How do you support them?

Speaker 2: 35:51

Great question. So Miriam has created a couple of online courses that have been hugely successful. You see the reviews on Trustpilot, for example, of people who just go through this program and they're pain-free as a result of it. Our intention is to help people do the same specifically, athletes and active people do the same, so we created this, essentially this roadmap, this journey that people can go through of video lessons, audio exercises, written exercises as well that is designed to share all the information, all the tools, all the resources that somebody needs to be able to become pain-free and get back to their favorite activities and, at the same time, like you mentioned, it can feel a little bit lonely, right, being on this journey.

Speaker 2: 36:38

So we also have a community that we're building within the program where, you know, people can ask us questions directly, they can share their wins with other people, they can share their questions with other people, and so there's this kind of community support that we want to build as the program gets off the ground. But yeah, that's the I think the exciting thing is, in this scalable format, we're able to, you know, offer it A at a price that is cost of a couple doctor's visits and also create something that can really, if you commit to it. I deeply believe that people can be pain-free as a result of it, and that, to me, feels amazing, because that's my mission is to share this with as many people as possible, to empower millions of people to be pain-free and live unrestricted and authentic lives.

Speaker 1: 37:25

So that is a fantastic mission. Um, so, before we kind of wrap up, one of the things is that I heard you've ran a marathon.

Speaker 2: 37:36

Yes, I did.

Speaker 1: 37:37

How does a person with, uh, your experience run a marathon?

Speaker 2: 37:42

Yeah Well, and a marathon without any training.

Speaker 1: 37:46

Oh, wow Like yeah. Well, I've heard cyclists have like hearts the size of football. So is that? Is that what it is? It's like just all that extra blood and you know, you just ran like it was no big deal.

Speaker 2: 37:59

Well it's. It's funny you mentioned it because, um, when I had this story and I talk about this in the program as well one of the beliefs that I had about my body, even after I recovered from the back pain, was that I was not a runner, that my body could not run. I had an experience Um, I had a broken wrist when I was 17 and I went on a trail run because I could do that. I couldn't ride my bike, but I could go on a trail run and it was like the equivalent of putting my body through a meat grinder just emotionally and it was just like oh, this feels terrible, and I hated it.

Speaker 2: 38:37

And then I talked to a running uh, uh store owner and he said, oh, you know, you're a cyclist, you have a huge, huge engine, but your body just isn't, you know, adapted to running. And I was like, oh okay, yeah, that makes sense. And so I just internalized that. And then, years and years later, like I would go for a run and I'd be freaking out about being able to finish, like dilators, and I tried all these special breathing techniques, and then after a while, I said, wait a minute, this is all just based on the faulty belief that my body is weak and cannot do this. So I remember I was in Montreal at the time and I ran to the top of, uh, Mount Royal, uh or Mont Royat, um, and back, without you know, without any food or water or anything.

Speaker 2: 39:31

It was like seven miles round trip. And I was like, okay, I can, I can do this, like my body is a lot stronger. And so I decided, okay, how far can I actually push this? And so what I wanted to do was, um, I had a buddy and we he introduced me to this concept called a Masogi, which is this kind of ancient, um Japanese purification ritual. It's kind of like a limit pushing mental and physical activity. And we said, well, what if we tried to run a marathon without training? I was like, oh, that sounds pretty fun, pretty cool, and something that I think would prove that my body is Herculean.

Speaker 2: 40:08

So when I say without training, for eight weeks leading up to this marathon, I ran an average of once a week for two miles. That's it, that's it, yeah. And so we were, we did our own. It wasn't a, um, a formal marathon, but we were in Ireland and ran the whole of the Dingle Peninsula if anybody's uh, um, familiar with that, like the Western tip of it, and it was, you know, immensely challenging. My body was tired but, um, I made it through without any pain, wow. And um, my and I was able to do it. You know, it took us like it was like five hours was the final time.

Speaker 1: 40:50

Um yeah that's pretty good.

Speaker 2: 40:55

Well, and there was stopping and stuff too. It was uh, yeah, it it was. It was very challenging, but my body was able to do it and I really think that, um, if we drop the stories of what we are, we think we're capable of, we just unlock so much more potential in ourselves. So, whether it's, it doesn't have to be running a marathon without training. You know, it could be going out to the local track and running a lap, or it could be getting back to pickleball or like whatever. Whatever it is for us. So that was my, my own personal challenge of can I do something that would inspire the clients that I'm working with and the people who are in chronic pain to see that maybe their bodies are actually stronger than they're giving themselves credit for?

Speaker 1: 41:38

Damn All right. Well, cause I, I do have the same kind of thing around running where I'm like oh yeah, yeah, well, I you know.

Speaker 2: 41:47

We'll have to continue the conversation, Dana I know?

Speaker 1: 41:49

Yeah Well, because you know I always I gripped into the identity of you know I'm a catcher and we never run. You know I've always been told, oh, you're slow, you don't run. You know that kind of thing, running is painful for you know, for the backstop kind of person that you are and that's always been um my identity. And then as well I've talked about in previous episodes, about like the military and even with sports, punishment has always been running.

Speaker 1: 42:17

So there's a lot like there's like probably a you know dump truck full of uh, you know stuff know stuff around and around running, and I and it's weird because, like, when I'm out on the trail and I run, I enjoy it and I. But then you know, it becomes a thing like oh well, this lead to a 5k or something like that, and then as soon as that thing comes, I go oh, I don't want to do it.

Speaker 2: 42:42

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:43

I don't like the pressure, but anyway it, yeah. Yeah, I don't like the pressure, but anyway. So I want to thank you so much for joining us and I um, how do people get in touch with you? I'm going to put it in the show notes too, but, you know, I want to give you a chance to give a shout out to different websites you have, or your Instagram, or any places that we can find you.

Speaker 2: 43:01

Absolutely so. There's a few different ways depending on your flavor and what social media that you like. So I am always able to be contacted on LinkedIn. I do posts on there. My name is just Alec Kasson. Feel free to connect with me. We also have a website, painfreecomebackcom, where you can learn more about the program, the athlete-focused approach that we have there. I also have my own personal website, aleccassencom, which you can learn about coaching. I have my blog post of running the marathon without training. That's on there, if that's curious. And then, finally, if you're on Instagram or Facebook, painfreecomeback are our pages, where we post a lot of content and stuff there.

Speaker 1: 43:47

So that was fantastic, awesome. Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 2: 43:52

Thanks for having me, Dana. This was a great conversation. Talk to you soon.