Neurodevelopmental PT 3 Learning Disabilities

Think a restless math class means ADHD? We peel back the layers to show how a specific learning disorder can masquerade as attention problems in one subject while everything else looks fine. With Hannah at the table, we walk through clear criteria, real classroom clues, and the practical ways to separate ADHD, SLD, or both—so kids get the right help faster.

We start with the three core domains of specific learning disorder—reading, written expression, and mathematics—and outline what struggle actually looks like: slow decoding and poor comprehension, disorganized writing and shaky spelling, weak number sense and problem‑solving. Then we zoom in on the six‑month rule: difficulties must persist despite targeted support like tutoring, accommodations, or structured interventions. You’ll hear why challenges often surface in third to fifth grade, when the work shifts from memorizing facts to analysis and synthesis, and how early intervention leverages neuroplasticity—the “paved roads” analogy that makes brain development easy to picture and act on.

To make this actionable, we map the assessment landscape. For learning, tools like the Woodcock‑Johnson, WIAT, WRAT, and KeyMath pinpoint subskill gaps; for attention and behavior, the Vanderbilt, Conners, BASC, and CBCL help establish cross‑setting patterns. The key move: if academic deficits remain after ADHD symptoms are well managed, a co‑existing SLD is likely and needs direct instruction. Along the way we share concrete signs to watch for in class, common pitfalls that delay help, and a quick recap of ADHD and autism spectrum disorder to anchor your mental model of neurodevelopmental differences.

Whether you’re a parent, educator, or clinician, you’ll leave with a sharper lens and a practical plan: notice where the struggle lives, measure it well, intervene early, and monitor progress often. If this conversation helped clarify the maze of labels and supports, subscribe, share the episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review with the biggest insight you’re taking forward.

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This podcast is not associated with the NBCC, AMFTRB, ASW, ANCC, NASP, NAADAC, CCMC, NCPG, CRCC, or any state or governmental agency responsible for licensure.

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting Up Specific Learning Disorder
• 1:10 The Three Specifiers Explained
• 2:15 Diagnostic Criteria and Impairment
• 3:32 ADHD Lookalikes in One Class
• 5:04 Six-Month Duration and Supports
• 6:24 When Deficits Emerge Later
• 7:49 Early Intervention and Neuroplasticity
• 9:14 Paved Roads Brain Analogy
• 10:24 Distinguishing ADHD vs SLD vs Both
• 12:04 The Role of Assessments
• 14:09 Favorite Tools and Training
• 15:24 Rapid Recap and Nonprofit Shoutout

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:06

The last disorder we're going to look at is the specific learning disorder. There were three sp specifiers according to the academic domain that's impaired.

SPEAKER_01: 0:20

What? Did you say specifiers?

SPEAKER_00: 0:23

Yes, dear. Yes, I did. Well, you got me there. I thought I'd sneak that in and try to get it past you, but that never seems to work. I know that's one of your favorite areas is specifiers. But let's have Hannah share your wonderful world of specifiers this time. What do you say? So just give it up and let her do it, okay?

SPEAKER_02: 0:47

Okay, for real. I'm team specifiers too, Stacey. Okay. So don't let details matter. Details matter.

unknown: 0:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 0:58

Yes. Yes. Okay. Definitely something to talk about, especially when we're going to into specific learning disorders. So the three academic domains we're looking at with specific learning disorders are going to be reading. So for example, inaccurate or slow reading, difficulty, you know, decoding words, poor reading comprehension. We're looking at written expression. So problems with spelling, grammar, clarity of writing, organized ideas in writing. We're looking at mathematics. He's struggling with number sense, memorizing math facts, understanding concepts or mathematical raising. And now these skills, though, these child skills, they have to be substantially and persistently below the average.

SPEAKER_00: 1:48

Well, you know, what I'd like to know is the kind of criteria that you would use, Hannah, to diagnose a specific learning disorder.

SPEAKER_02: 1:56

Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing to really know about them, specific learning disorders, is that they often show up when a child starts school. We're talking about age five, six, seven. So the first thing is that the child has difficulty learning and using the academic skills in one of the domains I just mentioned. But next, the deficits also have to cause the child's academic performance to be much lower than what is expected for their age. So lots of poor grades, like teacher reports of the student struggling with material, performance below grade level on standardized assessments. I think this is where it kind of gets tricky, though, because if you talk about a kid who has ADHD like symptoms, but it's only in math class or reading or writing, it's important to note that the kids will often anxiously avoid the subject they're having trouble in. Right. So if we see these things kind of happen at the same time, we're like, ah, it could be ADHD, but it's only in math class, right? They're they're they're not concentrating in math class, they're inattentive, they're getting out of their seat, they're acting, you know, but you get them to reading and they're they're great. They're sitting there reading for 30 minutes, they're they're deep into their book, you know. So we're looking at that strong distinction between those. So it's important to again put on that detective hat to determine which disorder criteria does that child meet.

SPEAKER_01: 3:18

Gotcha. And how about duration? I'm guessing this isn't just like you have a specific learning disorder with a reading impairment because you didn't like a certain book you were reading in class. Like, how would you how do you distinguish a specific learning disorder from a child who's just having temporary difficulty grasping new concepts or being interested in that material?

SPEAKER_02: 3:37

Yeah, that's actually a perfect question. Yeah. So kind of for it to be diagnosed as a disorder, the learning difficulties need to persist over at least six months. Even with targeted academic help provided, we're talking tutoring, we're talking maybe you're doing a 504 plan where the kiddos getting special, you know, read aloud tests or something like that. Um, it's beyond just these initial challenges, like, I'm having trouble, you know, we're moving up in reading to the chapter books. I'm having trouble keeping up. It's really an actual functional impairment over time, despite the safeguards or interventions that are in place. So they're not just failing, you know, one bad reading or writing test. It's likely they're failing all of their tests and they're truly stunted in a way to where they really can't move forward.

SPEAKER_00: 4:31

So, you know, sort of like ADHD and autism spectrum disorder, uh, the symptoms that you're saying about specific learning disorders uh may not really manifest until the academic demands become larger or they exceed the uh child's uh capabilities. So it may seem like that kid's doing pretty well uh reasonably well in early grades, but uh the underlying deficits become way more apparent as the material that they have to deal with, with analysis, synthesis, and evaluative kind of functionings get much more and more uh complex.

SPEAKER_02: 5:12

Yeah, yeah. It it really is, it really is. And sometimes, you know, you don't even I don't even see kills really struggle until their maybe third, fourth, fifth grade sometimes, because they've been able to kind of coast, you know, they've been able to be like, oh, I'm good, I'm good. They get into maybe even middle school when expectations and homework and things are getting a little bit more complex, and you start seeing these kids really struggle, and they're like, Well, I don't know what's wrong. I've always I was good here, you know, but I don't know. I got to this class and now I just I can't keep up. And that's when we really start investigating and looking deeper into it. But it it is really ideal to catch learning issues early through screenings and targeted support before the child falls extremely behind their peers. So even if the severity of symptoms doesn't warrant a complete diagnosis, maybe it's just a six-year-old who's really struggling with sight words or whatever it may be. But addressing those gaps proactively can make a really big difference in the long term of that child's academic career. So we have been known to catch things as early as kindergarten, you know, when they're first learning their numbers and ABCs and writing and reading and stuff. But I will always, always, always preach about pro-early intervention strategies because it really helps to get the child the support they need, as well as catching the brain in the crucial first decade of life. So we always talk about that kind of when we're talking about these things because the first 10 years of your life, your brain grows the most. We know this according to research and science. So when we talk about that first decade of life, early intervention is where we want to be. You really want to grasp that so you can give the best outcomes for later on.

SPEAKER_00: 6:56

You know, that that brings up a question I've I've always had. With a lot of other diagnoses, um, the criteria, they'll say for a kid is only like three, but for uh an adult it'll be six. Or if I see I understand that they're trying to catch the diagnosis earlier. Okay, but in this situation, it seems like it's reversed. That you know, for kids it's six and for someone older it's five. I'm confused. Straighten me out, Hannah.

SPEAKER_02: 7:37

So you're thinking it's reversed, like we should be pro-early interventions?

SPEAKER_00: 7:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 7:42

Yeah, I mean, I think so. I think where this lies is kind of what I was talking about that because as uh you know, humans, our brains are wired to learn to pick up things and everything else. And we always we all know about neuroplasticity, how your brain will adapt and mold to things, you know, we discovered that quite a long time ago. But when we talk about like specific learning disorders, we talk about the act of learning, is a very complex brain activity, right? When you're talking about the the way that your brain will learn and grow, that first 10 years of our brain is so crucial because by 10 years old, your brain has now created so many different types of connections and molds and routes to talk to its other part of its brain. But those first years, when we're exposing kids to ABCs and communication and writing and skills, those parts of our brain, it becomes increasingly difficult to form those what I call roads in our brain, which is if you form a new connection in the brain, like with writing. Say we take writing, if you form that new connection, if we don't catch that early, that road to writing is going to be very difficult to pave as we get older because our brain will become more concise and it would already have its connections there. And so we want to make sure that we catch it early so those roads can be nicely paved over and not have to try to dig it out when we're older and our brain is already already developed in a certain way.

SPEAKER_01: 9:15

It sounds a lot like the Michigan roads. They're filled with potholes, just like everywhere, as far as the eye can see. So I wish there had been a little bit of early intervention. Um and just some nice, you know, non-bumpy roads. Um, that was really good analogy.

SPEAKER_02: 9:32

Exactly. I always use that, I always use that as an explanation because I think it just we're you know familiar with dirt roads and paved roads, and dirt roads are so much easier to make in a child's brain when it is just now forming a bunch of dirt roads, right? And so then getting into an older, say adolescent or older child, their brains already made a bunch of paved roads. And I'm coming in there trying to do a dirt road somewhere, and it's harder for that child to learn that skill or to get better at that skill. So we not that it's impossible, they're definitely not impossible. You can definitely do it, but it's so much easier to correct that at five and six or seven years old versus trying to take a 15-year-old and sit down and learn how to read. You know, so it's is definitely just looking at brain development and that neuroanatomy that's really gonna help us to understand.

SPEAKER_00: 10:20

Okay, Hannah, let me ask you this. How do you tease apart whether it's like ADHD versus a specific learning disability versus both of those conditions uh happening simultaneously?

SPEAKER_02: 10:38

So that's a very common question, actually, especially when I'm tutoring or talking to other counselors about this. Um so differentials are just broadly a skill of their own. And it kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier about that basic neuroanatomy of where these disorders take place, how it helps to understand that differential diagnosing part. But when you're reading on the exam, you're reading a case study on the exam, you have to remember that ADHD and specific learning disorders commonly will co-occur. This is partly because of the executive functioning center of the brain. Now, a key piece, and I'm distinguishing between them, is whether the academic skill deficits remain even when the ADHD symptoms are well managed. So let's kind of break that down a little bit. So if a child exhibits reading difficulties that persist despite ADHD treatment, it points to a likely underlying reading disorder rather than the problem with tension or focus or whatever it may be, which could be the primary driver. So a lot of times for diagnostic purposes, um, we have to talk about the appropriate assessments. I am an assessment believer, I believe in them so much, partially part of my training. Um, I, you know, was a psychometrist for a while during grad school and for a neuropsychologist. So I am just, I love my assessments. Um but for this one, for specific learning disorders, we can look at assessments like the Woodcock Johnson, the peabody individual achievement tests, the wide-range achievement tests, the key math three diagnostic assessments for ADHD. We're looking at assessments such as the NICHQ Vanderbolt, the child behavioral checklist, the Connors, and the behavioral assessment system for children. That's not an exhaustive list. There are so many assessments out there to gauge both of these things, but I would say those are probably the most commonly used, um, especially when we're looking at um something like the Woodcock Johnson used in schools a lot.

SPEAKER_00: 12:56

Do you do you have a favorite?

SPEAKER_02: 12:59

Oh, do I have a favorite? Don't do that to me, Listen. I'll be here forever talking about my assessment.

SPEAKER_00: 13:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 13:07

Good to know, Hannah. You're an assessment person. I am. I like it.

SPEAKER_00: 13:13

Yeah, people have so people have so much trouble with assessments.

SPEAKER_02: 13:18

It's a huge gap. It is. I see people for tutoring, and it's a huge gap. And I, you know, I was a psychometrist for a pediatric neuropsychologist during my internship year as a therapist. And so all I did was assessments. I would do assessments one day, I would do therapy the next day, assessments one day, because assessments in the neural psych world last from 8 a.m. to five or six p.m. You get like a one-hour break for lunch. Like put it all with them. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 13:44

Was this like in like were you still doing like pencil paper kind of stuff? Or are you doing, you know, was it?

SPEAKER_02: 13:49

No, we were doing like the iPad. They have like that iPad now, the Q interactive. You can do the waste and the whisk on there. I was doing uh the whips for younger talkers, you know, Chris Play. Um, I will say I think my favorites assessments are the IQ ones because they're fun. You get to have a whole variety of activities we're doing. Um, and it's always just, I think it was a great time.

SPEAKER_00: 14:13

So did you ever do like the CAT with the kids?

SPEAKER_02: 14:17

I did the CAT. Yeah, I've done that. Um, oh my gosh, I've done so many. I even ventured into doing um retired football players assessments. So people who were looking to they had CTE. So people from the 70s. So I got to meet some really cool um footballers and do their do their cognitive assessments and stuff. So it was it was a great time. I I loved my little assessment training. It was great. Oh, that's very cool.

SPEAKER_00: 14:42

Hey Stacy, why don't you highlight three of the neurodevelopmental disorders that we covered today? Would you do that?

SPEAKER_01: 14:50

Yes. Okay, so we have spent uh been down a long dirt road um talking about these neurodevelopment disorders. And um, so we'll do a quick recap here. So we started off with autism spectrum disorder, and this involves persistent, so longer term, persistent deficits in social communication and interactions, as well as restrictive and repetitive behaviors. Those are the keys there. ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, involves again that persistent pattern of inattention, hyperactivity, or impulsivity, or both. And that needs to have lasted for at least six months, and it's present in remember multiple settings, so not just one place. Um, and several symptoms must have been present before age 12. And that's even if you're an adult. So like you got to go back in time and look at what was going on before age 12. And then last but not least, we talked about specific learning disorders, which hinder the acquisition of those academic skills in areas like reading, writing, andor math. So we have a big thank you today to Hannah for being with us and to our studious listeners out there. We wish you the very best of luck with your exam. And before we go, we'd also like to do a shout out to a nonprofit that was put together by a person many of you know, Barton Bott. It's called the Barking Ark. And you can check out the wonderful work that he's doing with animals at BarkingArk.org. Have I gotten everything, Linton?

SPEAKER_00: 16:23

You got it all. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 16:24

All right, great. So until our next episode, just remember it's in there.