The VALR Perspective On Crypto Values And Visions: Insights From Ben Caselin

Explore the intricate tapestry of cryptocurrency through the lens of Ben Caselin, the insightful chief marketing officer at VALR, as he joins our captivating discussion on the transformative journey of digital finance and Bitcoin. 

We venture into how personal values can forge a path in the professional world, particularly in an industry as dynamic as cryptocurrency. Ben brings to light the philosophical depths and the mathematical roots of Bitcoin, which mirror the evolution of human society and the universal patterns found in music and art. His perspectives on the creation and community-driven valuation of digital assets challenge us to consider the true essence of worth in the modern age.

Delving deeper, our episode traverses the familiar yet distinct pathways that led me from the arts to anthropology and finally into the embrace of Bitcoin and blockchain. Alongside Ben, we examine creativity as a process of discovery, with Bitcoin standing as a testament to the timeless principles of cryptography that have always resided in the universe. This segment underscores the significance of education within the tech and blockchain sectors, and how the enigmatic beauty of math shapes our perceptions and daily experiences.

As we reflect on the present and future states of the crypto industry, the paramount issues of trust, transparency, and the impact of exchange failures take center stage in our dialogue. We tackle the complexities surrounding the necessity for self-custody of digital assets and consider the delicate balance between the decentralized ethos of cryptocurrencies and the inevitable influence of institutional participation. 

Our journey with Ben Castlin culminates in a riveting analysis of digital asset hubs like Hong Kong and Dubai, the evolving concept of value, and the forward-looking investment landscape in this ever-evolving space. Join us for this episode, as we navigate the confluence of authenticity, innovation, and the uncharted territories of cryptocurrency.

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The Startup Journey podcast is dedicated to spotlighting the journeys and insights of tech founders and investors shaping Web3. Guests of The Startup Voyage podcast join a world of industry leaders, startup visionaries, and seasoned investors who share valuable lessons, stories, and advice to inspire and empower a global community of tech founders.​

We take a journalistic / reality show concept to ignite conversations that empower the next generation of disruptors. Join us as we dive deep into the dynamic world of technology, unraveling success stories, industry trends, and game-changing innovations.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:23

Welcome to another episode of the Wow Summit podcast brought to you by the Start of Voyage. Today we've got an episode behind the crypto buzz a conversation with Valor's Ben Castlin. Ben Castlin is the chief marketing officer at Valor, a leading cryptocurrency platform. Ben's journey is equally diverse and impressive, with key roles in the bitcoin and digital asset sectors across Hong Kong and UAE. In strong presence in empowerment initiatives throughout Europe, he's a respective voice in the industry. He's recognized for his insightful contributions to top tier media and global conferences. With Valor's remarkable achievements including serving over a half a million users worldwide and securing substantial equity funding from renowned investors like Coinbase Ventures and Pantary Capital has been at the forefront, driving the company's global expansion and bringing the benefits of bitcoin and digital assets to a wider audience. So, ben, welcome to your show, and we're eager to hear your perspectives on the evolving world of crypto and your experiences and how you envision the future of digital finance.

Speaker 2: 1:27

I think you're very much. I say a very comprehensive introduction. Thank you very much Great.

Speaker 1: 1:32

So before we start up, let's get the audience to understand you a little bit better. You will be one of the speakers at the Wow Summit coming up very quickly, March 26 and 27. Tell us about your journey becoming the CMO at Valor.

Speaker 2: 1:45

Sure, the story is actually, I could say, a bit weird, but I think it's interesting to sham. So, you know, following everything that's happened in our industry, I think everybody you know had to go through some form of introspection, and for me that took shape in the writing of a book. So actually last year I spent some time writing a book called Landscapes of Value, and it really explores value across a whole whole bunch of dimensions, from bitcoin and in digital currency, to religion, to the environment, to art, privacy, and I went very deep and the word value is, of course, logically very central to that whole kind of exploration.

Speaker 2: 2:21

Now fast forward a few months later I found myself in Dubai and I met the Burj Khalifa very, impressive some crypto event and I overhear a conversation between two individuals that go very deep and it's really about value and it's about religion and it's about the progression of humanity, and I found this very interesting and so, at some point, I could help myself.

Speaker 2: 2:41

And I I intervene. I just kind of forced myself into participation and it was a very interesting conversation. I cut in touch with this guy. This guy's called Badi and you know he lives in South Africa. It turns out he knows a friend of mine. So after 10 years of not speaking to this friend, I spoke to him again and it's really great, fast forward. A few months later he texts me and he's like Ben, we have this position at ballet, like I think you should check it out. So yeah, check it out.

Speaker 2: 3:07

And it's a values driven exchange. Many of the things that I cite in my book, many of the theses that I put forth, are similar to what Valor stands for, and so for me, it was a moment of serendipity and I followed it. And I followed that lead only because of the interesting circumstances that led to it. You know, if I had to look at it from a high level view, I have my values and it is crucial especially if you work for an influential company like Crypto Exchange, it's really crucial that your values are aligned with that of the Crypto Exchange or whatever company you work for. That alignment is vital, and I think that's this has been a journey of value alignment.

Speaker 1: 3:41

Well, I think it's a journey actually for the whole industry if you look at it. So, if you think about the market itself, the bulls and bears you've looked at NFTs, meme coins, all these ICOs, and it's still happening these days, a lot of new coins getting kind of developed and brought out to the market. Now the question in investors point of view is what is the value behind this? And sometimes you can question or argue there is no value with just a speculation and let's make some money, right. So how do you think value is then driven from the community, like who defines that and where does it? Where does it really gain its influence in?

Speaker 2: 4:16

this market. Well, I mean, it's very tempting to look at short periods of time and you know, and capitalism hype, that's a very tempting thing. So, of course, that the industry is full of it. Actually, you know, global economics is full of this type of speculative trading, I guess. So it's not so much that you know, that's not the unique problem of crypto, I think. I think we find speculation in all markets.

Speaker 2: 4:37

I think the way that I've approached it is to understand that, let's say, the value of Bitcoin is part of a larger story about value in general, and so it's not just Bitcoin or finance that's transforming today. Right, it's actually. There's transformation happening across all dimensions of human society, and these all need to work together as well. We cannot move in the direction of more privacy on the one hand and, on the other hand, you know, aspire to a surveillance state like these things won't match. So we need to align our values across the wide spectrum of human life, and I think when we do that, we can see the value of Bitcoin and we can also see the the bubbles, I guess. Right, right right.

Speaker 1: 5:16

So I mean, you had a quote on the two website and it. I'm gonna read it right now and maybe you can elaborate on where it came from. What you make right. So, just as the laws of physics held within them the possibility of gems, oil and precious metals, fine art, even so, within the perfect balance of mathematics, we find the possibility of Bitcoin. Where'd you come up with that, the meaning, and would love to hear more about that actually this thought.

Speaker 2: 5:43

It's very surprising that you found that, by the way, it's interesting. So actually, this thought is something that I've been articulating for many years, even before Bitcoin existed, but not in this exact way because Bitcoin didn't exist. But to elaborate, right, I have some background in music. In fact, I studied music and I produced music and I wrote lyrics and later I even went into painting, like fine art, paint and oil and all that stuff and what I've discovered consistently when you engage in art. I mean you know, maybe there's an arrogant artist out there that says this is all come from me. I am so brilliant, you know, look at the expression, my skill. Sure, you build your skill, you are fine, your skill. But I found that that in the creative process it's really more of a discovery that you make. So I would be amazed at the stuff that that happens when you make music and the kind of the brilliance and the mathematical brilliance of music and, I guess, composition on a canvas.

Speaker 2: 6:33

It's discovery. There's very little that can be attributed to yourself. Much of it is just an inspiration. They can alike the change in the heart and you find it in discovery. So I noticed maybe it looks like it's not related, but it is. What it means is that?

Speaker 2: 6:46

I mean, we all enjoy music and we all understand that there are some mathematical logic behind music, right? The frequencies and the, the distance between these frequencies, that brilliance was there a thousand years ago, ten thousand years ago, a hundred thousand years ago, before instruments were invented. They were there before people sang. The rules were there before they were birds. The rules were there pretty much from the start of whenever we think is the start of the universe, these mathematical rules. It's just that there was no medium, there was no vehicle for music.

Speaker 2: 7:18

And it's the same with everything. I do the same with a lot of things at least. So bitcoin, as we know, is grounded in mathematics. Cryptography is not an invention, it's a discovery. And so bitcoin is a discovery, it is discovery. It's just like if you randomize a typewriter, there is a one in a trillion chance that it will write a Shakespearean poem. So we've done a lot of discovery over the past, whatever. And, yeah, we've come across the idea of Bitcoin, right? So if you read the quote again I don't know if I don't know if I know it by heart, but it says something like just as the laws of physics.

Speaker 1: 7:52

What's the next one? Help them, help them, them.

Speaker 2: 7:55

The possibility of gems oil and precious metal, yes, just as the laws of physics hold within them the possibility for gems. Like what are gems? Right, they take shape form. We were about oil. Oil is nothing but, but if you put it together in a combustion engine, suddenly you can use it. That's all latent in the universe. It's a pretty interesting universe we live in, and bitcoin is part of that.

Speaker 1: 8:19

So so that's that's my statement there well, I guess you talk about art, and that's one of the other things I wanted to understand, since I did look at your background and you were in the music and arts before you traversed into, I guess, the Bitcoin crypto world. How did that happen? Like were you just introduced early on by friends that, hey, join this industry, check it out, see if you?

Speaker 2: 8:42

like it, not really. I have never had an interest in finance, never now, I know, just in my life. In fact, I was like really into music and I just want to be free and I wasn't really a fan of how I don't know like some issues with society and some injustices. So you know, there's some I don't really want to be. I didn't really want to be part of that system. What's that? Sure, and so after my music and you know what was music? Right, music is about addressing a lot of people and really getting a message out there.

Speaker 2: 9:11

But what I discovered is that when you, when you do a performance, a lot of your audience is drunk, like they're not really listening to you're saying they're just enjoying the music, which is great. But I wasn't looking to be an entertainer. So I kind of left the music industry and I went into anthropology. Anthropology is a super fascinating discipline. You go deep into culture and for this I went to West Africa and I did some studies, field studies in a mosque in the UK where most of the whole community is actually white British converts to Islam and they were kind of Middle Eastern Barma and they and they have Arabic names.

Speaker 2: 9:46

So this is very interesting. So I went there and they talked to me about gold. So this is really early, like I don't know. Many years ago they talked to me about gold and then they explained to me that in their community, which is kind of global, they accept gold and silver as real money. And as I studied this community, I realized that they are in search of authenticity. They just want to be connected to the real what's real. Fast forward, a few years later and I was in Hong Kong and I worked very closely with my brother and we worked with many different companies in Hong Kong tech companies, so cybersecurity, remittances, all this stuff and blockchain kind of came into that, and so actually, in one sentence to say it, it's actually I, you know, we, my brother and I we educated ourselves. We actually educated others and, in that process, educated ourselves, because we were just writing and exploring and you discover, like what is this? Yeah, that's, and both of us actually yeah, into the industry.

Speaker 1: 10:37

Well, you know, that's a perfect the theme. When it comes to the space, you talk about people coming from very diverse background and also in order to engage in, participate in the space. It is through discovery and research, right, and it just taken the effort and I love how you put it is that not only are you learning it, the way you learn is actually teaching others, because that more or less solidifies your learning sets. A really cool story now I was thinking about briefly. But what you're saying about music is this math, and well, I always have this conversation with my wife and she we talk about math is everywhere, right, so we talk about it being in music and I grew up playing piano, the saxophone. I was also a dj for some years and I remember as being a dj.

Speaker 1: 11:18

It was this. I guess you know I never saw this mathematics, but I guess it really is right. So you can argue you got your beats per minute. I I, I would basically listen. So this is back when there's vinyl, so listen to the record and I would count myself and then I would calculate the beats per minute is very like manual and the reason why I wanted to do that and not being like. I guess there wasn't a lot of devices to do it digitally, but it helped more or less train my ear right and then what I'm like trying to create new sounds and mixes. It was all kind of like okay, I got eight bars, here in comes this noise for about four bars and it's all this mixture of sounds. But I guess in the end you can argue it's based on the mathematical compilation of this whole set that I'm trying to create. So I guess I can imagine it's like that, except what you can add to it?

Speaker 2: 12:08

I think what you can add to it is that it's not. It's not just numbers and mathematics in the sense right there.

Speaker 2: 12:14

Rather, I think we have an innate attraction to the beauty of symmetry yes so it's not just that we're doing all four and five and six and two. Rather, we're saying I want this sound to be this long because it feels good. Yeah, it's what it turns out that mathematics also can feel good and kind of going in the right direction. And steinstein was probably a very happy person, you know, because you're constantly exposed to the brilliance and magnificence of the world around you. Yeah, because you're looking at it at the kind of skeletal level sure it's no different for neurosurgeons and everybody.

Speaker 2: 12:45

Once you go into detail, you start to be amazed and I think it's the same for bitcoin. I think, hopefully, it's what draws us in. It's just you start to see the brilliance of what's before you.

Speaker 1: 12:54

Okay, well, let's start back into what you were talking about, your whole alignment of values. So talk about valor a little bit. So what values that valor? Have that really aligned with your values?

Speaker 2: 13:04

sure. So maybe a short introduction on valor. Valor has been around before I joined valor, which was 2000, and you know, while it's a kind of globally remote company, you know the ceo is the us, I mean Hong Kong, there's a bunch of people Malaysia, like we have. We've stopped around the world, but the headquarters in johannesburg, south and south Africa, is really one of the adoption hubs of crypto in the world and over these five years valor has grown to have serve around 500 retail traders around the world and more than a corporate and institutional participants mostly in south africa, but also in other places like singapore, other place in africa.

Speaker 2: 13:41

So you know, the products are just like most exchange, so I don't I don't really have to go into that too deeply. But I think what's really differentiating about valor is that it is first and foremost values driven, which means, yes, we can make revenue. Yes, we can make profit, that's good. We can pay salary you know racial cost, whatever expansion business but we will never compromise on our values. We can compromise on our revenue, we can compromise on our profits, but never on our values. So what are these values? Well, first of all, being values driven, I believe, is the key to long term success, especially in an industry that's lacking in values and so it's just gonna show over time it's, it's one of those things you can tell people this is my value. Actually, a value is proven over time.

Speaker 2: 14:20

So you know, valor celebrated its sixth anniversary yesterday, which won't be yesterday for the people listening to, let's say, the 20th of march. And despite everything that happened everything, luna ftx, all of its Celsius valor came out unscathed. In fact, it came out thriving. It's had its strongest year yet last month was top trade volume, like all time I trade volume for the entire six year period. And this is all because of integrity. It's all because integrity is proven over time and starting to act like a magnet. And so what are core values? I can? I can mention three that are very important. One would be unity. So unity is a very important core value. And valor because we believe that the global financial system should reflect the oneness of humanity, and that's more profound than it sounds. It's actually very profound and we have a big problem in the world in terms of division and polarization, and the financial system exacerbates that division and we need to try to solve it. So we know what we're doing here is, yeah, profitable and cool and exciting, but there's also a meaning to it and each decision that we make has to serve to bring unity and to connect people and to kind of work towards more justice.

Speaker 2: 15:34

The second principle is service. So service is the core principle that we believe is part of being a human like we should serve actually makes you happy when you help other people. Now I'm definitely not gonna give a new story of what is it the effective altruism and all that like whatever. I don't even want to like. In that sense, like you know, it's not bad to be good, but it's it's bad to pretend to be good and that that's bad for everybody. So I'm not going to mention that. Service is different. Service is part of human nature and it's it's part of what makes us work as a society. So, as a crypto exchange, we should not see ourselves as some exploitative parasite in society that just scams people of their money, you know, and makes a lot of money in the process and we act popular. No, actually, we know that we're dealing with people's life savings. You know it's important. Treasury companies this is all of this. We have to serve them. We know we're working towards the unity of humankind and trying to get finance to support that, and we have to do that with a kind of spirit of service.

Speaker 2: 16:32

Every decision has to be in that spirit, and the last one is truth. So truth is a principle that is? Well, there's a zero tolerance policy in ballet for lies. You know, if there's no truth, it's like oh, you hide your stakes, you hide this. There's zero tolerance because we're dealing with people with acid and there will be no lies.

Speaker 2: 16:49

And it's very interesting because you might think of course, dog, I bet you there's 99% lies in the industry and you check if people say we have the best security, do they have a security officer? Do they have a security team? Do they do monthly penetration tests or is it just words? And I think there is lots of that in the industry.

Speaker 2: 17:04

That's why there will be more collapses and we need to be prepared. And so, in the spirit of truth and in a commitment to truth, we have been proposing a whistleblower program. So we published something with the CEO in a coin telegraph and we're talking to regulators. There should be a whistleblower program Globally, carried by the regulators, supported by the rule of law, with the possibility to give protection to whistleblowers, and I think then we can start to see that the people, which is really the majority in our space, with integrity can bring out the bad roots in this space, and I think we can really get to a better level and be more on par with what we can see in terms of standards, let's say a BlackRock or a gray scale, whatever Right.

Speaker 1: 17:44

Yeah, so I can hear that that's probably your true difference in the market, because most of these exchanges that I see a lot of, it appears pretty obvious that their focus initially is actually revenue first, and then that's built some values after the fact. Right, especially when there's a hotspot that you know something is going bad with your exchange. Right, the PR needs the narrative needs a change for themselves. But I do believe I've been waiting for it for this industry to still clean itself up. I do believe a lot of exchanges are hanging by thread and fortunate for them if they're able to hold out for this long through the crypto winter. And guess, now there's training volume back again. But yeah, from most of these exchanges, much of the focus was user acquisition. How do we get more? Get more going to emerging markets, more volume, more volume and that was the focus, rather than how they're going to best serve the community. So I really like that approach.

Speaker 2: 18:37

Well, just to add, sorry about that, let's go ahead. Look, if there are exchanges that are suffering or struggling just because it's difficult, I wish them the best right and that's great. But if there are exchanges who are struggling because they lie and they're just like in trouble now, to be honest, I hope the users can see it, get out, let it collapse. Who cares? Like we need? It's finished. This is 15 years. We've had MtGa, all of this stuff. We've had FTX, we've had Luna Celsius. A lot of stuff has happened and it's like are we really going to like continue to know? So even what is it? Even in Hong Kong was last month with Bit4X.

Speaker 1: 19:10

Yeah, it's very recent. Yeah, it's not.

Speaker 2: 19:13

Yeah, and JPEX before that. This is not finished. It's not finished and we just need to have a zero tolerance, zero sympathy approach. I didn't get sympathy. When they say it's fellow buyers like you're going to deal with it, right, and everybody has to deal with it and get on your feet and build something better. And it's like, yeah, anyway.

Speaker 1: 19:29

Well, I love the idea with the Whistleblower program because that itself will help put people on their toes and you know kind of really look at how they're running the operations, because you know I had I actually have a swim that I know who I spoke with recently Recounting the stories of how they've lost thousands in doing that Voyager fiasco and wanting to get back into the market but not sure who to go with. Right, because you know, back in those days there were a lot of name brands, like you said, that says we're good, right, and we've got great security and funds are segregated. It doesn't really matter these days when they said, oh, we've got proof of reserves. You know that doesn't really matter sometimes, trust me bro yeah, trust me, bro.

Speaker 1: 20:09

And then so they're like okay, that's what they thought of Voyager back in the days and FTS and everything blew up. So it's now like how do they determine trust in exchange? So, beyond Valor, if you're going out there and you're going to buy someone wanting to invest in crypto, what do you say when to go? How do you determine where to do your trades? Or do you go on multiple exchanges? So what's your advice?

Speaker 2: 20:31

Well beyond Valor. I mean, I think Coinbase is still here in a strong place, like we have to respect that, and there might be some others Like I don't know if I should list all the exchanges but because because in mentioning the exchanges that I believe have high integrity, it's also clear which ones I believe don't happen Right. So maybe better I don't really comment on an exchange industry like that.

Speaker 2: 20:50

But, I'm really I like I honestly I don't care if it offends people because, look, we have, we have proof of reserves. Right, we're all celebrating it. It's not very difficult If I have an exchange. It's not very difficult to invite one of my rich friends, like Connectors Wallet Register with BeFiLine, my new but big proof of reserves. There's nothing to do with the exchange. Like it's just like. I have very little interest in all of these shows and you know, it's just not interesting. I think. I think we have to just be hardcore and move forward with this knowing. And here's it again. What are we doing? We're building an industry that's going to hopefully really make quality of life better in the world and serve a lot of people that are currently suffering in inflationary environments, and you know, really there's quite a lot of confusion inside. So I'm very optimistic. I'm optimistic about what we can do and and and we. We just need to move forward with this. So if people want to trade on exchanges multiple exchanges sure that's better than, let's say, betting everything on one exchange.

Speaker 1: 21:44

Right.

Speaker 2: 21:44

But it's even better to just take a whole, especially your Bitcoin and self custody, and keep it with you, and the exchange is there for if you do want to make a trade or for fiat on an off ramp being or maybe you're interested in some staking. Look, it's fine when you're talking about your, your, your net worth like. I think self custody is the theme of the of the century, isn't it? So let's, let's promote it, let's promote it.

Speaker 1: 22:09

Well, do you think? I mean ever since the launch of the Bitcoin ETF in the US, in which that majority of the market still has not even been brought on board? Those guys you can say it's gone mainstream or institutionalized. These guys don't care about self custody. Now they're. They're not buying direct Bitcoin to go through a fund. So I guess the question is, where's the market going? In a sense, it will be like I don't know any going into these institutional platforms, or and then 20%, the, the self custody guys. What? What do you think? What do you think this is going?

Speaker 2: 22:42

So it's interesting. The only very bad scenario would be that 100% of all Bitcoin goes into BlackRock, and then I, I know it's big.

Speaker 2: 22:51

But I say it because it means that then Bitcoin will have been completely reduced to a speculative collectible. Yes, it's like oh, I have a bit of Bitcoin there and that's it, because I have a share of the Bitcoin, right, what is it? Again A collectible? Yeah, so with where the interest is only in price? Yeah, that would be a bad thing. That means you can't transact freely across borders. There's no more self-custody All bunch of things you miss out on Now of course that's not going to happen.

Speaker 2: 23:22

Now I don't know how much percentage will go into the ETFs, but it doesn't really worry me that much. Even if half of all the Bitcoin moved into these ETFs and never moved again, the value of the other half which will be equal to the other half, of course will be so high. The value of Bitcoin will be so high that we transact in sacks. So whatever they're still circulating is fine you know what I mean, Because they can always divide into smaller pieces. You know it right.

Speaker 1: 23:47

And that's.

Speaker 2: 23:48

I don't really see a problem, but it is a problem in terms of because you mentioned oh then these guys are not interested in self-custody. These guys don't know about self-custody. They don't really understand self-custody. People just look at Bitcoin and think great price appreciation. Oh, 21 million random number. There's a lot behind it, right?

Speaker 2: 24:03

Right, right Again if you appreciate the beauty of mathematics. So let's say there's people that listen to music and can really understand and feel and have a good sense of what's happening in music, and others just hear noise Great, ok. So if you want to share in that noise, good. But the noise is not going to move the needle. It's all of the features of Bitcoin in its full richness that give Bitcoin its value, right. So that's the answer. Like, I don't mind how much goes into the ETF, it'll make the rest of it more valuable, but that's not really where the value is right.

Speaker 1: 24:38

Right, right, yes. Well, is it fair to say then that Bitcoin has not yet gone mainstream? If everyone's just looking at it from a financial value level, they're not really understanding Bitcoin. So I mean, would you agree? I would fully agree, it's not yet gone mainstream.

Speaker 2: 24:56

No, for me mainstream, but there are some places right.

Speaker 2: 24:58

So, and in my experience, it feels mainstream, because a lot of people that I interact with speak about Bitcoin and it's normal, but when I venture well, I don't know. When I contact my neighbors or whatever it is like you'll notice that it's, they'll know about the ETFs, but that doesn't mean it's gone mainstream. Mainstream is that people know, just like gold, like oh, you know, it's not going very well, I need to buy some gold and you know, that's in Hong Kong, that's in Vietnam, that's in India, that's in China, that's mainstream, right.

Speaker 1: 25:28

Yeah, it's true. Well, so I think you focus a lot on your community, AdValer, and it looks like you're exchanging yourself in development for quite some time since 2008. Are you contributing any other way in Web3? Like, are you working with partners to develop new technologies or just, like you know, I guess, develop new products? Do you guys do a lot in there?

Speaker 2: 25:49

I mean, of course we have partners, but I'm very busy, like yeah, I'm very focused on valet so I don't do any side projects. I think you know over the years, of course, I've worked with different projects and even at valet. There's a lot of innovation you can drive which is important for the ecosystem as a whole.

Speaker 2: 26:07

For example, lightning, connecting to lightning or integrated with lightning, or maybe Satoshi nominated markets, like there's a whole bunch of things that the exchange itself can do and contribute to improve the ecosystem. So no, and Web3, you know the background of Web3 is an interesting story. A few years ago nobody spoke about Web3. And I actually remember at that time we were looking like what's gonna be, what's the next thing? And I actually found an article on Hacker Noon, which was it said, d-web tokens might be the next thing. So I was like D-Web tokens, checking decentralized Web tokens. I read about it and one turns to yeah, it was like Web3. I was like, oh, interesting, what is this Web3 thing?

Speaker 2: 26:47

And so we decided to jump on it and start writing about it quite a lot and we pushed quite a lot of content. So the SEO around it started to take shape, blah, blah, blah. About a month later, or maybe two months later now, maybe a month later, we saw similar content with the finance, with OPX. There's a lot of Web3 stuff suddenly. And you realize like it's not that we caused it, it's that we picked up on it really early and it came as a wave suddenly and it's really prominent in Hong Kong as a theme and less so in Dubai. But to be honest, it's just another word for crypto. Yeah, like, again we're doing this. This is just like the Federal Reserve, like one day it's quantitative easing and then it's whatever. It is new term, new term, it's the same thing. So Web3 is essentially just crypto and it taps into the same principles, right, but it's a nice way of talking about it without upsetting people that get upset when they use crypto.

Speaker 1: 27:35

It's interesting. You say that, obviously for the podcast, I reference it as Web3, right. So people ask what do you do for a living? Oh, I'm a Web3 podcast or YouTuber. Very simple, now, number one crypto sometimes has that negative buzz connotation around it, so that's one reason why I change it. But then I often ask people their opinions what do you think Web3 is? And I get so many different answers. People actually really don't know. Then I got people in the industry, like I was talking to someone I'm about to interview, probably next week. They're talking about Web4, right. So I'm like, ok.

Speaker 1: 28:05

So I've seen stuff on Reels, in short, saying Web1 is this, you know, and then Web2 is like it was read and read and write, but now whatever, right. So I'm like, ok, well, I guess that's a easy way to simplify it to the main audience. But you get Web3, very easy to use. But when people ask what do I think it is, I said well, it kind of encapsulates kind of everything that's going on right now. You got blockchain, you got AI, you've got crypto. If you want to talk about DeFi, yeah, I mean, it's this whole space right to kind of show that, because it's quite nascent and still evolving. So it's interesting you say that, because Web3 here is prevalent in Hong Kong, for sure. But yeah, I always wonder how it is on the outside world where people are still attuned to just use crypto, only right To reference the space.

Speaker 2: 28:52

Well, I mean in Dubai you can hear people talk about Web3. But in Dubai, when I was there, there was much more interest in just big OTC flow and like new SDT and getting you know hedging against all of this risk in the monitor, in the system, like with the Swift exclusions and all of that.

Speaker 1: 29:10

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:10

Very, not Web3. I'm sure there's some expeditions where they talk about gaming, but that wasn't the thing that captured my attention, sure, but you know, I agree with you that Web3 could be seen as a very broad term. Sure, but you might say that just tech or just digital stuff. Yeah, I think Web3 is very simple.

Speaker 1: 29:25

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:26

It just means that, just like with Bitcoin, enables you to be kind of a self sovereign individual. So you hold your Bitcoin. Your money is not being debased by others because it is decentralized and with a fixed supply. That ability that you've been given in this world to live in a self sovereign way is very difficult to live in a digital environment. You're basically being surveilled and being exploited for your data and everything. So all Web3 is it's kind of recreating the digital world in such a way that we can live with dignity and sovereign and everything else around it, even AI. That's all cool, but it has nothing to do with it. In fact, it might actually be Web3. Ai could completely destroy our sovereignty on the internet.

Speaker 2: 30:12

It could completely destroy our ability to do anything.

Speaker 1: 30:16

I don't know if AI is really part of Web3, it might be the opposite. Let's see Good point. Well, I want to bring back to this one opinion article that you had produced about a year ago, and this is about how Dubai and Hong Kong are sort of seen as the big hubs in this digital asset space. And then I caught this one article about some Dubai Royal Nephew family office deploying 5 million here in Hong Kong. You know, the way I've always recognized it is it'll be two different markets, different partners, huge financial underpinnings that they will work together to create this digital asset space together, with alignment, like you said, mainly on OCHIFZ photos and capital market products. Right, exactly Now it's a year past. Do you still agree that this will happen, or is there a clear winner? Or what do you think is going to? Where's the shift?

Speaker 2: 31:07

Okay, super interesting. First of all, hong Kong beats Dubai in terms of history, like the historical significance of Hong Kong and the crypto industry is top, is among the most important places in the world and that's not now, but I'm saying historically in crypto. We all know that the majority of Bitcoin mining happened in China for a long time, and so we know that Hong Kong is the gateway between China and the rest of the world. Right, this whole story, so we can understand that, after many, like, crypto has been important in Hong Kong and it's always been unregulated. All the big exchanges have a history here, not Coinbase, but like Binance, opex, ftx, ax, bitmax, all of it. Perpetuals were invented in Hong Kong, right, I think BSV, I mean, I don't agree with it, but Craig Wright and all the drama I think he was here near my hub in a hotel.

Speaker 2: 31:54

Announcing a bunch of things. So that's Hong Kong. Dubai is a powerhouse, of course, with, for all the right, uae, I should say, is a powerhouse in the region and the Gulf in general is a powerhouse. Of course, they want to make sure that they remain that type of powerhouse in the future. Bitcoin and stablecoins, and I guess the crypto universe in general, is really on the rise.

Speaker 2: 32:15

So it's strange for Dubai and the UAE to really jump on this, but they have some catching up to do, you could say Now. Having said that, the regulator in Dubai is incredibly forward-looking and the regulation that they're putting in place and the frameworks that they're providing are incredibly helpful for innovation.

Speaker 2: 32:32

Now of course there are some difficulties, some questions about insurance pieces and stuff like that. It's complex, but they are very clearly intent on not only attracting the capital to Dubai and the talent, but also being a hub for the world. Now, with Hong Kong, I get a little bit of a different sense. The Hong Kong regulations, while it's great that some things have been put in place, are more restrictive. There's more questions about stablecoins, when in fact stablecoins are the lifeblood of this industry. You cannot be a global hub if, let's say, there's no USDT, usdc off and on. It's going to be very difficult. Hong Kong dollar stablecoins are not interesting to people in. I mean, they might be interested in Argentina, but why would you? You might as well call it the US Dollar or whatever. So what I see is that, while Dubai is building something, they want to be globalized for the world and you have to put innovation and freedom of capital in a sense, free market principles first. With Hong Kong it's slightly more constricted and I believe and it's not a bad thing everybody is just discovering. I believe it has to do with the difficulty of its regional positioning. So Hong Kong is not just Hong Kong. Hong Kong is part of China and so any movement that Hong Kong may, any movements that they make in terms of Web 3, is part of a much bigger story which relates to China. Hence, it is maybe a bit more restrictive and a bit more cautious Now.

Speaker 2: 33:54

Dubai and Hong Kong together have shared well, there's been a lot of news over the past year of kind of banking partnerships and so, as I mentioned, it's all about flows. It's not about pictures of monkeys, it's not about, you know, crypto punks. It's not, it's about money. That's what it's about. It's about the economy, and if I can offer you a picture of a monkey, you can be fiat that I can put in my bank account, then you know, not my bank account, but in the economy. Well then, web 3 is serving the economy for me, because I'm on a fiat standard if I was a government right.

Speaker 2: 34:24

So this is interesting, and Hong Kong has decided more on the fiat center, I would say, in Dubai, and the reason is in Dubai. Well, what I noticed in the UAE and beyond, there's definitely some consciousness about shifting landscapes, you know, and with the US dollar and with the bricks, there's a lot of stuff going on. So I look at these two hubs as very important hubs. I think one is more restricted than the other at the moment, but I hope, I really hope Hong Kong that it will open up a bit more, because it does have the opportunity to leave globally, really globally. Yeah, it'll be a really important thing.

Speaker 1: 34:56

Yeah Well, I know that there has been a lot of so I've seen on social media or even articles talking about how you need it or people offering help. If you want to set up business in Dubai, you go there for sure. I always hear some different events happening on daily right. Don't type in small and big. Are there any special ways you need to operate within Dubai if you're having a crypto business? I?

Speaker 2: 35:20

smoke specific amounts of crypto. I think I think what we need to remember is the UAE, not just Dubai, but the UAE. Yeah, it's a different type of political structure that is different from Hong Kong, china is different from Europe, different from the UAE, so of course it's different and it requires more tact, like you know. What I've noticed being in Dubai is it's it works very well, the police force works very well, the immigration department works very well, the banking kind of industry there works well, everything works well, and you know the style is is well, don't disrupt that. It's a pretty straightforward thing and, um, one thing does anything bad about it? I think you know the same with Singapore, like these places, yeah, maybe they have some elements that are a bit more strict, but I don't know. It seems to be running better than than some of the the the the best sins of freedom in the world. Right, right, right.

Speaker 1: 36:13

And I guess that was the whole. Why I brought that up is because it doesn't matter what jurisdiction that you're in, the way you play within that jurisdiction. If you are in what? Three, and that is a crypto, but it's a little different. Everyone has their own nuances.

Speaker 2: 36:27

I mean you know, yeah, so also, if you have a company in the US, I don't know, like Coinbase, and then you get sued by the SEC, okay, right, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 36:36

So that's, that's the whole point. I mean, you know you pick your jurisdiction. I think that's why people are looking at supporting multi jurisdictions and getting licenses in multiple places as well. So it makes sense. I think that's still the play, and it's beyond setting up a place in Cyprus, Having operations out of Cyprus, what not? Okay, well, I mean, I guess for you your personal experience in this space, maybe you can share with the audience, maybe your top three resources, if you're going to get into space, where do you go? What do you learn? Where do you start?

Speaker 2: 37:07

Because it's quite a massive learning undertaking, yeah, I'm so biased, you know so like from, because because I'm look, I'm very happy with a lot of stuff that's happening in the crypto space, but I'm very focused on Bitcoin, yes, and I'm also very kind of long-term focused, like I know that this is going to be like decades, so I would think always be in tune with Twitter. It's good to kind of follow a bunch of accounts and just be aware. It's not about the following, it's more about being aware, because Twitter is a very good resource. So there's one for Twitter. What is it? X Elon's platform? Right, just make sure you're there.

Speaker 1: 37:40

I think that's good I think it's, I think, podcasts. No.

Speaker 2: 37:44

And not necessarily. I mean, yours is very great, but not necessarily me. But like, I think there's. There's some podcasts. You know people like Arthur Hayes and Michael Saylor and these people. I think you should. You should hear what they have to say and think about what they say. Other than that, I don't know. Pick a good book. I don't want to say which book, because just pick a good book, because Indian people just have to explore and that's just very crypto focused. I think you know if you're going to. So again, I actually have the book here, but this is not for sale and not promoting. It's going to show it. This book, landscapes of Value, which I wrote. The whole idea is because people assumed, oh, it's going to be a book about Bitcoin. Actually, there's just one chapter about Bitcoin and the rest is about other stuff like art and identity and extra-terrestrial life. You know, like, like, if there's life out there, what does that mean for life here?

Speaker 2: 38:28

Like there's bigger questions than just the crypto, right, but I believe that when you ask the bigger questions in life, you're probably going to have to get access to some money right and invest in the future and be prepared for a tumultuous future, because I think our value, the landscapes of value, are changing, like like a whole idea of what's valuable is changing, and really that's one descriptor that's in life, yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:51

I think the one theme as I get older, that the conversations change in my circle of friends the value of time becomes more prevalent. Right, I was so. I was talking to my cousin who's an attorney and she puts in a lot of hours, has two kids and she often questions herself what am I chasing? You know where's fulfillment? You know we often go through individually, you know in reflection of our lives, and, yeah, so for sure, the value of time, especially when it comes to Bitcoin. Right, Imagine getting into Bitcoin 2004.

Speaker 1: 39:23

If you really believed in it, it doesn't matter if it goes up and down and you re-accumulate it when it was like what? 15, like over a year ago, not too long ago and look where it's at now. And even now, if someone's asking me, oh, should I invest in Bitcoin? I said you have no idea the fact that it just launched institutional product, right, and not everyone has access to it in the US, and you're talking about all these other countries having it. Right, I just can't imagine the amount of money that's going to flow into it. Yes, I'm not from that only value, but if you're looking at it to represent an asset, if you have this thinking that Bitcoin is going to mean something in the future. It's a great buy. It's a great buy and yeah, so it's exciting times.

Speaker 1: 40:03

Yeah you have any last words Maybe? Maybe you know if I were to ask you at the event is there, are there any people specifically or any type of opportunities you're looking for at the event?

Speaker 2: 40:13

No, no, no, you know you have to think that we were a global exchange, the majority of our user base, so we're the biggest exchange on the whole African continent by trade value. Yes, but we, but we want to grow and expand our global presence as well. Coming to Hong Kong is not really a kind of a spree for like a search for users. In that sense, what we're coming here for to the event is to to find partners to understand more about the dynamics, not just Hong Kong but Asia at large, especially institutional flow, family offices, corporate participation, because for Valar, the majority of our volume comes from corporate and institutional trade is so it's like we actually serve businesses and things. So we want to know what does that look like in this region? Okay, that's why we had the wow, so yeah excellent, excellent.

Speaker 1: 40:58

All right, ben. Well, I'll see you soon and thank you for joining the podcast once again.

Speaker 2: 41:02

Yeah thank you so much. I think Okay, thank you.

Speaker 1: 41:04

Hey, so that concludes this episode of the Starter Voyage Podcast. I would like to thank all of you for listening to this episode, and I'd really appreciate it if you leave any type of comments that you'd like to share, because it helps to feedback on how I deliver these podcasts.