Bridging Secular and Islamic Spirituality: A Conversation with Zahra Aljabri

In this episode, I speak with Zahra Aljabri, a spiritual coach from California and the oldest daughter of immigrants from Kenya, who shares her journey in understanding and connecting with spirituality. Zahra initially viewed her religion as a set of rules based on the environment in which she grew up. 

Zahra later discovered what she calls secular spirituality, like the law of attraction, which resonated with her Islamic upbringing. She began to perceive Islamic practices as not only obligations but as pathways to personal growth and a deeper connection with God. This shift transformed her understanding of religion from a performance of duties to a more personal and spiritual experience.

Facing the challenges of being a Muslim in the West, Zahra discusses her struggle to balance societal expectations with her faith. She shares insights from her coaching work, emphasizing the need for a spiritually enriched approach to Islam, particularly in Western contexts.

Find Zahra online here:

* Website: Limitless.practicalmuslim.com
* IG handles: @practicalmuslim and @zforzahra

Transcript

Dr. Rose Aslan: Welcome Zahra and welcome to Rahma with Rose.

Dr. Rose Aslan: So, I always like to start the first question that I ask all of my guests is, Can you remember when you first started getting interested in spirituality?

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Oh, okay, that's a really great question. I grew up. My parents founded our masjid so it was always around the masjid in the masjid learning about Islam.all of those things, but I think the way that I learned Islam and was taught Islam was very here's Haram, here's Halal and, all of the rules and stuff.

and. But even then, I did have this interest to understand, like, the depth behind some of the things. So I remember clearly when I was young, being really, caught up in the one Hadith of the, it was like, after some battle, one of the companions was wounded,had an arrow shot in his leg and,They're like, okay, you need to drink alcohol in order for us to remove this arrow because there's no anesthesia.

There's no anything. So for pain management to drink the alcohol and he's no, don't worry about it. I'm going to pray, wait till I'm in my second recall, and then you'll be able to pull it out. He's I won't feel it. And, that always stayed with me.

Dr. Rose Aslan: Rukua is the prostration in prayer.

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Yes. Yes. So right. Like he's saying, like, wait till I'm like deep into my prayer, right? Like after I've already done the first round, I'm into the second round, then you'll be able to do it. and that really stuck with me. I was like, okay, well, everything I've learned in Sunday school about prayer. I don't know anyone in my current life anywhere who would be able to withstand, not be able to feel something because they're praying.

So that was like one of the first things that kind of, stuck with me and always piqued my interest. And I was always like looking and listening for the answer to that question. Because that, they would tell you about, Hushua in prayer, which means like concentration and focus, but it still didn't answer the question.

Okay. if I'm just really focused on what I'm saying and the movements, how does that mean that I can't feel, pain?and then later on in life. so probably if you're asking like when,

Dr. Rose Aslan: were you when you first heard this hadith or you were searching for understanding this hadith?

Zahra al - Jabri (2): I was young, I would say it'd have to be like 10 or something, it was before,

before high school. and then maybe like in my late 20s is when I kind of got into, secular spirituality, but that secular spirituality was, it interested me because it sounded like the answer to that question.

It sounded like. They're talking about something about like reaching a deep space of like inner, inner contentment or inner peace or tapping it, mind over body the way they were explaining it. I was like, this is connected to that Hadith and I need to learn more.

Dr. Rose Aslan: Can you explain to me what you mean by that term secular spirituality? I actually haven't heard anyone use that term, and I'm curious how you define that.

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Oh, yeah, sure. So, I got into like law of attraction and, those types of things where they're teaching you essentially spiritual principles, but they're just removed God from it. So they're just talking about the universe and, those things. so that's how I kind of think of it now is, it's spiritual.

It's to me, it's still coming from the source of truth from Allah's like divine laws and divine wisdom, but they removed mention of God, of Allah, of anything from it. And they're just these are universal principles and this is how the universe works. and so I call it secular.

Dr. Rose Aslan: Thank you. And so how did you see or what? In their teachings offered you a way of understanding the Hadith for people who aren't familiar with, for example, the law of attraction. Can you explain the connection for people who aren't familiar with maybe either?

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Yeah. so what did they, it was a way of describing. What we know as Muslims, we know that our body is made of clay, right? Allah took the clay from all different lands and that Allah breathed into us our spirit, our ruh, and our ruh is, so mysterious, nobody knows, the details around it, and that we are spiritual beings.

When we pass away, our body will remain, but our spirit will go up. So all of these things that we've learned about in Islam, but you kind of learn about them, as this is the nature of, how we were created or the nature of this world. And then again, you kind of just, get into, the rules of Islam and, like, how to be good and how to obey Allah and how to listen to what the Prophet said and all of these things and not really then talking about, Yeah, May Allah bless you.

Oh, well, what does it mean that I'm a spiritual being? And that the true part of me that Allah breathed into me, was done in heaven and will remain forever. And this physical part of me will not, it's just this worldly part of me. And What I found in secular spiritual teachings was like when you really stay connected to that sense of yourself, that you're a spiritual being, that you're operating in this world, but it doesn't hold as much power as you think it does because through, when you stay aligned and stay connected to your spiritualness right, then you will be able To navigate this world.kind of on a higher plane, like the troubles and tribulations of this world are not as affecting to you and you can mold and manipulate and transform this world with greater ease because you know that you have power over it. So it was, it's again, it's the same things that we've learned in Islam, but the way that it kind of clicked for me there was like, oh my gosh, like really tapping into, prayer and connecting with the law is to align myself with like my spiritual nature.

And that's how I can, again, be able to, apply all of these things that I learned in Islam. For example, another hadith that's always stood out to me was like, Oh, don't get angry. The prophet peace be upon him said, don't get angry. Don't get angry. And it's okay, well, the anger is just rising up.

What am I supposed to do? That pissed me off. I'm mad. Right. But it's like, Oh, when you're like this world's It's an illusion. it's not really what it is. It's not really what it looks like, now we even know that from science, that like nothing is actually solid, that it's everything is moving particles.

So it's an illusion that things look solid or feel solid, but that's literally what Islam taught us. So it basically bridged the gap for me of, the Islamic Principles that I understood, but then how to actually, like, make use of them so that I could apply them more and live it out more. Of course, I, still working on that.

I'm not like, it's not like I'm living it out, but now I have a greater sense of, what it means to live it out and I can try to do it at a higher level than I was previously.

Dr. Rose Aslan: That's so interesting that it was secular spirituality. Would you say it brought you back to a different kind of Islam? Then had you drifted further away from Islam when you got more into that kind of spirituality? Or could you kind of talk us through? that journey. I'm so curious. And the listeners, the people who listen to this, I think are very interested in people's stories and how they navigate, being a Muslim in the West and all these different beliefs and ideologies thrown at us.

So how did you navigate all that?

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Yeah, that's another really good question. I'm the oldest, daughter of immigrants. So I, grew up, with kind of the expectation and the pressure to be good, to be a good Muslim. I also grew up in white suburbia. So, representing black people, representing African people, representing Muslim people, like, all of this pressure of, you have to be good because people.

 will judge you, will be racist towards you, will have all of these, opinions around you. So show them, show, my parents were like, show them how good you are. so in that sense, I was always like the good little Muslim girl, like trying to follow all the rules. I, I never dated.

AndI put on hijab, Before I started college, so what is that like around 18, 19? I didn't party,never drank, never smoked, like all of the things like to be a good Muslim, I tried to do them. And, so when you talk about okay, where was my Islam or how did I, whatever I was a Muslim in.

In performance, in action, right? don't get angry. I'm trying not to be angry, but I am so mad, right? But it's not going to show on my face, but I'm going to be passive aggressive. I'm going to be not showing up to that next thing or telling my mom I don't want to go or whatever. So on the surface, I am presenting, as much as I can to follow the rules and be a good Muslims, but internally there was within me a just what is going on?

I am, there was also the, another layer of anger, festering of I am following all the rules. God, like, where's all the stuff? Shouldn't I have more stuff by now? Because I'm being the good little Muslim, those people are out drinking, those people are out doing this and that, and they are getting this and getting that promotion and getting that, at that time in my life, I was trying to excel in my career, and I felt like my career was really stagnant, so that was the place where I was like, I'm not making enough money, I'm not, advancing, and I would be,paying attention to that and feeling that frustration of I've been good.

I've been good my whole life. And, and I've worked hard and I'm smart and I'm talented and I'm doing a good job. So like, why isn't this going better? so my Islam at that time was still there, was still intact. I still pray fast. I'd gone to hudge even, I had done Umrah before and then gone to hudge.

But The secular piece really like kind of just awoken me like to the depth of it. It just, that's, I feel like that's why it was so compelling for me because it filled in that missing, that missing piece. It's oh, it's not just all the stuff that you do. It's also about like how you see yourself and how you feel about it and how it connects you to God.

Not that you're sort of like doing this thing, these things for God. It helped me understand how we do these things for ourselves, how what Allah has prescribed for, and laid out in the Quran and Hadith, the way I understood it as a child or as a young person was like a teacher in school.

These are the things you need to do to get an A on the test, do them, and you're going to get an A. So it just felt like I just need to do these things to appease this teacher to get this. person off my back and for them to give me a good grade and to let me into heaven. I got to do all of these things.

and so it felt like it's for them. It's for the teacher. I don't want to do this stuff, right? I'd rather not do any of this nonsense, right? Nonsense or whatever, like hard work waking up early for Fudger. And well, what is all this stuff about? And then with the spirituality piece coming in, it was like, Oh my God, this stuff is not to appease God.

This stuff is because it will make my life better. Like me being able to master my ego and, resist temptation or overcome my nuffs and all of these things will make me feel better now. Will help me appreciate the stuff I have can lead to more stuff, but more than that leads me to the sense of wonder and, magnificence.

of myself as God's creation, as God's representative, like, Oh, I'm here representing God. And I've got to navigate this world and take care of the earth and the plants and interact with people as God's representative. And the better that I can do that, the better I'll feel. And the more that like my life Will reflect like the goodness that I want it to reflect.

If I want to have harmonious relationships or, a thriving business or all of these things, I do these things because I represent God and look at what all the amazing things I can do and I can bring forth and the creative ideas and how I can support you and how we can grow and how any setback, we can rise back from it.

So it just really shifted everything for me.

Dr. Rose Aslan: Yeah, that's amazing, Zahra. And it really clicks with me as well, because I think so many of us as Muslims were exposed to the mechanics of being a Muslim, how to be a good Muslim woman or girl and then woman, how to follow legalistic,dynamics of Islam, but forgetting the essence and the heart of Islam and just following the rules, but without actual any reason per se.

And, You can't, it's really hard to follow rules without actually understanding the deeper meaning behind them. And it's amazing how you had to go to outside of Islam, to discover the beauty and depth of Islam. And actually I did something very similar. So I think it's really interesting that because that is not. Very common in, especially I'd say in Western Islam. Actually here in, in Turkey, I find it's a little bit different. but especially in Western, Muslim communities, it's so dry and lacking the spirituality that some of us are longing for. Like, why are we Muslim? We're not Muslim just to, follow rules.

We're Muslim for a much deeper purpose, right? So I love that you also found that elsewhere because you weren't being offered that in your community, unfortunately.

Zahra al - Jabri (2): yeah. I mean, I think our parents did the best they could in our community, the best they could. Most of it. I'm in California in, the America most,not most, but many Muslims are immigrants just bringing over what they knew. And what they knew was the Quran and Hadith. They didn't, get taught the deep spirituality.

So they didn't have that to offer us. but definitely seeing the resurgence of people like myself and you of like, Wait, there's got to be more here.

Dr. Rose Aslan: So from your 20s, how did your spirituality develop since then?

When you first kind of reconciled Islam and gained more depth through secular spirituality?

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Yeah. I mean, since then, my spirituality has definitely deepened and that's probably where I, spend a lot more of my time. Not more my energy, but it's just, it's heightened my awareness of, of how I practice Islam and, when I fast or, when I'm praying and all of those things.

So I would say, yeah, it's added depth. It's added, comfort. It's created more of a connection between me and God. It's helped me, reconcile so many different things. So I'd say like the spiritual component. Light, enlivened, my religious practice. Cause before it really was just a dry religious practice.

And so, it literally put spirit back into it.

Dr. Rose Aslan: So how would you describe the spiritual path you're on nowadays?

Zahra al - Jabri (2): The spiritual path I'm on now, I very recently, so for a long while, I, had not been in many Holocaust or in many kind of traditional Islamic circles, that I had grown up in, going to the Islamic conferences, all of those things. So I've more recently gone back to those things. And it has like such a different texture for me now, like hearing those same Hadith or those same style of teaching and the same rule focused teaching that you get from a Khutbah and all of these things.

But hearing it now with the level of spirituality that I'm at now, things hit different. And it also really does inspire me to continue my work because my work now is as a spiritual coach for Muslims. And, It invigorates me even more to be like, okay, we're still for the vast majority of Muslims in the West, teaching Islam in the same way that I grew up with, 30 years ago.

I'm 40 now. and. I can hear in people's questions the same questions that I have, I can hear the disconnect between the spirit and just the rules, or you're just seeing it play out, in the community right the marriage crisis and, our children, suffering from being bullied and all of these different things and how our understanding and our application of Islam could support Muslims.

In a much deeper way have if we have more spiritual context to the way that we're teaching Islam. So it invigorates me to like, keep sharing the spiritual side of Islam through my coaching work and to continue to just,make the connections for myself. So, in everything,and finding the people who are doing that there are, so many Muslims like yourself,and scholarly Muslims whoWho speak to this and trying to find them more and highlight them more. So that, like,when Ramadan comes up, for example, we're going to have a program that supports people to bring back that spiritual peace and all of these different things that allow for our community. to be making that connection.

And I will say that I feel like it's a global kind of worldwide phenomenon that everyone is turning to more spirituality now, like our literally our world has gone nuts, topsy turvy. I don't know when people will be listening to this recording for how many years, but I'm sure it'll be still going nuts.

Our political leaders.

Dr. Rose Aslan: it'll be relevant for a long time.

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Yeah, like it's insane. And so the rise of yoga over the last 20 years, Buddhism, Zen, minimalism, all of these things at their root is a spiritual yearning of you told us to strive, accumulate more stuff. And a lot of people in the West, especially have done all of that.

And they're like, well, why am I still, fat, sick, and alone? what's going on? and so worldwide people are like looking for depth. So it's not just us Muslims. It's just that us Muslims. In some ways have a barrier to spirituality because we may falsely believe, Oh, I already am spiritual.

I already have that because I have Islam. But if you only learned it in the very rule based way, you're actually missing it. And you might not realize you need to go look for it or you might not appreciate like you might brush off it. No, it's just me. It's just me not being able to connect really in prayer.

I'm just a bad Muslim because I, can't control my anger. You might not realize that no, you're supposed to be that those are supposed to be cues for you to look for more and not to like, tell yourself. Oh,no. I'm just not being a good as a good enough Muslim. I need to make more thicker. I need to, fast on Mondays and Thursdays.

I need to go for Umrah and that's, what's going to help me get better. no, you're supposed to find the spiritual connection because just the rituals are not it right. And there, and we know SubhanAllah that this is true because for the first, for all the time that the prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam was in, Medina, in Mecca teaching the companions, there was no fiqh, there was no rules.

He was literally teaching them about the spirituality only is only when they moved to Medina that the rules and the fiqh and all of these things came. So the core of the center of our religion, the foundation is first your spiritual connection to yourself and to Allah. Then the rules support that in deepening and strengthening and having a structure for you maintaining that connection. 

Dr. Rose Aslan: yeah, really beautiful. I'm sure a lot of people benefit from your work and we just need so many more, Muslims out there doing this work from different angles, from different approaches, right? Because there's what, 1. 8 billion, maybe 2 billion Muslims by now. that's a lot of work,

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Yes.

Dr. Rose Aslan: A lot of work to slowly bring people back to this more spiritually aligned Islam. so question for you along this path, you've been, part of rule based Islam. you've engaged with secular spirituality. Have you tried, different kinds of, healing modalities and knowing that you're in Southern California where it's quite common, I'm going to guess you have, but please share like what you've experimented or tried and how it's been for you.

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Yeah, I mean, for sure. I got into, I'm still into meditation. I got into secular meditation, then learned about Islamic meditation. It was like, oh my gosh, I even went to, it was like the Kadampa meditation center. I did a meditation retreat there. I think it's Buddhist. I'm not sure. I used to suffer from back pain and I would do chiropractic, acupuncture, cupping.

I couldn't really find anyone in my area who did any Hikma things, but I would have. but Alhamdulillah that's,alleviated my back pain. but basically where I am now is that I believe that there's a spiritual solution to every problem. And so any issue that I'm having, whether it is in my physical body or if it's a relationship issue or financial issue, whatever it is, I try to remind myself before I go, guns blazing into trying to figure out, how can I address this?

It's Let me check internally. Where am I at spiritually? what could Allah be trying to, illuminate for me or point out, or where do I need to pay attention or to purify or to, look into so in that sense, my approach to healing has start starts now from spirituality, which then leads me to different modalities that could support.

Dr. Rose Aslan: Wonderful. And let's say, when you have challenges in your life, when you are facing difficult situations, what's in your toolbox? What do you pull out in order to kind of self regulate in order to bring yourself back to, a good place?

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Yeah, that's a great question. Another thing I didn't mention was like breathwork. So I turned to breathing, breathwork, I'll probably do a meditation first, then pray, then journal, and, then go for a walk. And we go for a walk, I like to talk out loud to myself, or just let my mind wander. I've been fasting more, now too. So we'll use fasting, but fasting depends on what the issue is. but

Dr. Rose Aslan: Islamic and like regular kind of fasting?

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Islamic fasting. Yeah. I, although I do practice intermittent fasting these days, but, but yeah, more Islamic fasting, but I guess my first turn is meditation, prayer and journaling.

Dr. Rose Aslan: Beautiful. And what do they do for you? Because here on this podcast, I really want to speak, I'm speaking to women like you, because I want people to see, what can they try in their lives? they might get inspiration from listening to your story. So for example, a lot of people hear about the benefits of journaling.

Why do you journal? What does it do for you?

Zahra al - Jabri (2): So essentially what I'm trying to do is. Hear what's being communicated to me, right? The issue, the challenge, the whatever has come into my life is trying to tell me something. It's trying to alert me something, make me pay attention to something. And I know for myself that like the first place my mind is going to go.

as I'm going to feel under threat. I'm going to feel attacked. I'm going to feel why me, God's against me. I'm so bad this I messed up. Oh my God, like just it's going to put me into fear. It's going to put me into fight or flight. It's going to make me want to run away or make me want to attack or retreat.

I'm the person who more is the, what is it freeze or retreat type of person. And so all of those things, what they do for me is help me hear what's actually going on. So especially journal, journaling. I love journaling. I love to just let myself write, like, why do I think this is happening?

And I don't know. well, what's going on? And well, I'm so annoyed by whatever, or just feel so angry, or how come? I thought I was over this. I already, went through something like that. Why is this bringing me up again? And just allowing myself to write and write. And something will come out, right?

even if it feels like nothing really came out on the page afterwards, like just the release of all of the thoughts from my mind onto the paper, is, can be a relief, can be enough, and something like, I will get to a place where Oh, that's what this is about. All right, got it God.

And then of course, that's when the work starts because,God's trying to take us deeper, like it's nothing that's happening is Shallow or random or insignificant. It all has depth. And when you get to the depth, you don't want, you don't want to, you don't want to do it.

You're like, Oh my God, I have to confront these feelings or I have to address this issue or I have to come to terms with this thing. And then like meditation and prayer is to like, okay, God, help me do this. Because now, now that I have greater understanding, or I think I've identified it,praying, is this right?

Send me a sign that I'm on the right track and I'm, have identified the right thing. and if I already feel like, okay, this is what it is,please help me to do this. to overcome this or address this or purify myself with this, because for pretty much most things, We are, it's hard for us to do on our own. Like we need God's support. Like we just, our ego, the world is just, pulling us to just ignore it. Just let's get some Netflix and let's just forget about all this stuff.

Dr. Rose Aslan: Yeah, can't we just stay on the couch and watch Netflix all day? I mean, that's the best, right? Yeah, that's wonderful. I'm so glad that you actually find so much clarity and even you feel like this deeper connection with God through journaling. That's so powerful. I was listening to this, podcast episode the other day about how journaling is a healing modality. And I love that you brought up as one, it's really a way to sort out our thoughts and reduce anxiety and all these benefits.

So it's really powerful to hear how you use journaling in your life. One question keeps on coming to mind as you're speaking, because I hear you on this, you've been on this journey from this kind of rules based Islam. You've discovered this other source of spirituality. You've kind of combined the two. Now, one of the issues a lot of people I work with face, and maybe you've experienced this too with your clients, is that in the Muslim community, there's a lot of guilt and shame around everything. Basically, as women, Who we are is shameful just because of our gender, essentially, and to come back to Islam and to even do things like pray, for example, clients will say, I'm not pure enough to pray because I've done this.

So I can't even pray. so it's not as simple for them as just, Oh, I have a spiritual connection with God, right? To come back to rituals, to come back to a deeper approach to Islam is very hard for a lot of people because of this, extreme guilt and shame. So many people Experience due to how they were raised by their parents, their family, Sunday school and so on.

Zahra al - Jabri (2): So I'd love to hear how you support people through these sorts of thoughts and, experiences. Yes. I think that's one of the most powerful things that I've learned and appreciated is how harmful guilt and shame are, and that how, how harmful, how unproductive, how counterproductive.

How it really can be a tool of Shaitaan to pull you away and, constantly working on releasing that for myself and supporting that through my clients.

So I think the first, thing that helped me, right, was like, there's this Einstein quote that kind of summarizes that,and I don't know if it's really Einstein, but it's oh, your most important question that you have to answer in your life is, do you live in a friendly universe or a hostile universe?

And that's essentially the question of, do you believe in a, a loving God or a hostile God or right, right, a judgmental God, a harsh God. For many of us Muslims in the West. What we've been taught, what we've been shown, what we've heard from the Chukpa has been the reminder of a harsh, punishing God, right?

And I can appreciate, especially now that I'm a parent, I can appreciate where that kind of sentiment came from. It's look, I got to tell you,I'm telling you the things to do, but it's really hard for you to do, don't date, don't drink, especially as the world gets more and more crazy,

Dr. Rose Aslan: right? It's it seems telling a Muslim, telling, a young person, anyone, a Muslim, to do all of these good things. It's like, you're literally telling me to be, so contrary to the way the rest of the world is going. Exactly.

Zahra al - Jabri (2): So, like, why would I do that? Everyone's doing all of the bad things.

And they also seem to, be living and enjoying life. and you're going to tell me I can't do any of those things. and instead of telling us why, how beneficial, how you will grow spiritually, how good you'll feel inside, how connected you will feel to God, how it'll expansive, it'll make you feel, how you'll be able to You know, bring to fruition your creative ideas and projects because you've kept yourself, your mind and your heart in this state of purity. we don't know if you're going to believe us. We don't know if we can convey that to you, but God's going to punish you. God's going to punish you if you do any of those things. So you don't pray if you don't fast. If you do this, if you, whatever, if you, what are all the things bad, you're going to be bad.

Blah, blah, blah. So essentially many Muslims may not appreciate how deeply they believe in a harsh judging. Hostile God. And that naturally produces feelings of guilt and shame constantly, because you're never going to measure up. You cannot,

profits, right? Like there, there are just a couple of profits, right?

Even if there are 2, 500, there are just a few of them. There's billions of people. I can't do it. I can't pray, all the five prayers and the, all the sunnah and witr and tahajjud and da, like I can't, right. And, well, maybe I won't say I can't, but it's just, it's going to, it's an, it's a surmountable feat for me to be able to like, reach the level of, And that's just prayer.

Okay. And conduct with people and character. And then, eating food, eat only one third. And,don't overeat and break your fast on a date and then fast the next. Can't. So, we naturally are in a state as a community in fear and guilt and in shame. And so the biggest. Help to me and how I try to support my clients is to shift to that state of love and,compassion and mercy that Allah has to us.

And of course we all have been taught those things as well, but not to the same extent that we've been taught the judgment, harshment, harshness of Allah. And so I try to emphasize and really just stay focused on the love, the mercy, the compassion of a law. And I try to be the one to be sharing with people how when you are abiding by these quote unquote rules, how it's actually enhancing your life.

What's the reason why you should, you know, I coach a lot of women.who want to get married. and so, and most of them are good girl women like me. So they're, they're not dating anyways, but it's really helpful when I go to like masjids or to youth groups and things like that to be like the reason why you don't want to date.

Even for these women who are in courtships. The reason why you don't do it is not like that Allah is trying to punish you. Oh, you can't like. Like someone and they can't like you back and just have a a fun cute attraction. Is that because every heartbreak you go through hurts your heart.

It literally your heart is breaking. Every heartbreak you go through is painful, is hurtful, is so emotionally draining, scars you that could make it, You more resistance for the next time or people could even just close off their hearts and like I'm done with this Because of all those heartbreaks and so when you're young or you're not Vetting someone properly or it's just an infant infatuation or it's just lot lust It truly is a protection from Allah that Allah is saying don't go into those shenanigans.

I mean, just look at any of your non Muslim friends and their heartbreak that they're having, right? Like you will under appreciate and understand that this is a protection, right? So allowing us to really reframe how we think about people.what Allah has commanded for us, what Allah is asking us to do, what Allah is pointing us towards as the love, compassion and mercy for our own selves to get to where we want to go.

It's not that Allah is trying to take you some, the fear is that Oh, Allah wants me to be some Zuhud, which means that I'm just going to be like a poor, insignificant, nobody, right. Nobody knows me anywhere. And I'm just like in some shack by myself praying to God. And it just.

Like it, in this materialistic society is well, I don't want that. Doesn't God know? I like have this idea to start this company or to do this thing or to travel on these adventures. and it's can you believe that God wants to support you in the things that you want to start and build and then ventures that you want to have, and that he's providing a framework for you to do that in the most joyous, loving, expansive way possible, not in a way that you're going to do it, but you're going to feel guilt and shame.

And,scared the whole time.

Dr. Rose Aslan: Great. Thank you. that's really inspiring. And I know that, and you mentioned one of the issues you support people with, especially to help women get married. And as we know, there's a crisis of, especially among men, because women are not finding men who just are suitable. I think there's women are pretty.

Amazing. But men just haven't caught up. Really. They're falling behind. And I would love to know how you work with women, who are these good girls as you describe them, like good girl, Muslims, right? And how you help them find partners, help them find the right men. How do you help them through this whole process? Well, Staying true to their ethics and morals and,being an American woman or wherever they're from, right? How do they, how do you help them balance all of this? And find the decent man who is kind of like a needle in a haystack these days.

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Yes. Yes. so I think of it as our mother, Hadija Radi Unha. So she was, the first wife of the prophet. Peace be upon him, and she is kind of almost literally theembodiment of the majority. a Muslim woman today that she was, attractive. She was successful. She was prestigious. She, had her own business.

she was previously married, which is not let all Muslim women are previously married. But in the sense, in terms of today, it's like you have something going against you, right. In terms of your marriage ability, right. Does that she was already previously married. But there she was, this beautiful, successful, prestigious woman in Mecca, and we're talking about, pre Islam Mecca, and she's Mary's, Muhammad, who was a man at that time, who was not yet a prophet,in the time of Jahiliyyah, right?

So the men running

around,the men running around were not like, amazing, right? We're talking about, we're literally talking about toxic masculinity. Right. They had multiple wives. I think they allowed their women to have multiple husbands. They had some weird, I don't know. They had a lot of weird 

Dr. Rose Aslan: I mean, they're murdering their infant, female children.

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Yes. Right. They buried their daughters alive. All sorts of like shenanigans happening. So it's not good men. And you have Hadija, who's holding herself to a high standard. clearly because she is like one of the most prestigious women in that community in a time where everything is stacked against women then and now, right?

So for her to have elevated herself to that level, was not a,was an anomaly, right? It wasn't an anomaly. And she may not have been aware or like on the lookout, but she notices a man who is basically worthy. Of her, right? She becomes aware of a man who is worthy of her. The prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

again, this is pre prophet hood. So Muhammad goes and does trading for her. And she hears about how, how respectful, how righteous, how he brings her the most wealth that anyone who's traded for her before has done because he's so honest. and it's not, ripping her off and, skimming off the top and all of these things.

And she's basically wow, this is a man worthy of me. And she, sends a proposal to him. But essentially through my coaching is to support women to lean into their level and the status that they are, because as The messaging, the most of the messaging that women are hearing instead is to reduce themselves.

Well, you're asking for too much, just shrink down. if in your community, there's only one Muhammad, like who do you think you are to be the one to get it? Just look for all of the other Mo's around and just try and get one of those. and my message is to no, we are Hadija and we are looking for Muhammad.

And when we see him, that's when we're going to want to need to be courageous. Right. It doesn't mean necessarily that, women are going to be proposing to men, but you're going to have to be vulnerable and put yourself out there in, in the way of, letting them This man know and creating that space that like, Hey, I see that you're like, someone on this trajectory or you're on the same wavelength as me.

They may not be just like the prophet peace be upon him was not at the her level right at that time. He was working for her. he was up and coming, but he hadn't. Yeah. So you may meet a man and I see what trajectory you're on. I see that you're up and coming. I'm here. I think we could make a great team.

Let me tell you about my vision for how I want to live. Let me hear your vision. Let's see if there's a connection here. And supporting women to like really Hold their confidence, hold their vision, hold their desire, hold their prayers that they're making for the life that they want to have so that they can connect with it.

Because essentially. Otherwise, it is the diminishing of themselves, of their vision, of their desires, that is, creating them wanting to shrink down, connect with something lesser, and then of course it doesn't work out, and it falls apart, and dealing with the aftermath of that. Whereas, yes, it may feel like it's harder to hold myself.

To this, higher level, and may feel like, well, now, it's a needle in a haystack and now I'm only available for a needle. this is crazy odds. What am I doing? But that's faith. That's what belief is. Belief into the faith. Is literally to believe in something you can't see yet, right?

It seems like it's all, Hey, I don't see any needle. You're asking me to believe. And you're just going to leave me here hanging. I'm just going to be, never getting married. And I don't want that. And that, and work, my job is to support women. no, we're going to hold our faith. We're going to believe, we're going to believe, we're going to believe until you connect.

Dr. Rose Aslan: Interesting. So basically you support women to build their. These, I mean, you said the word believe many times, strengthen their beliefs, which is not easy as we know, that's what coaching is about strengthening beliefs so that they believe the needle appears or so that it appears through belief, I guess,

Zahra al - Jabri (2): I can think of it that way.

Dr. Rose Aslan: Yeah. Great. Thank you. Really interesting and great work you're doing. It's definitely needed. For sure. Another question for you on a different topic. Can you think of a difficult challenge you face in your life or even a crisis, a personal crisis? I mean, talk us through it, whatever you want to share, that you're comfortable with.

And then how did you walk through it? How did you get to the other side of that,

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Okay, a difficult, a crisis in my life and how I got through. I've had a lot. what should I say?

Dr. Rose Aslan: but everyone's coming to you right now. be human if you didn't have a lot.

Zahra al - Jabri (2): yes. So my, I guess the ones I tend to have more of, or have been struggling with more recently have been financial. So, having a financial crisis of We needed to move, for example, we were living with my parents and I needed to move out, and we did not have the funds to move out. But we had to move out for a variety of reasons, and we're a family of six, we have four kids, and we're living in California.

Which is very expensive.how did I go through it? So first of all, the crisis, right? Okay, this is a good question. You're really good. So getting confronted with the crisis of like, Oh my God, we have to move right there's, we've been avoiding it for as long as we can we lived with my parents for like four, five years.

Three or four years or whatever, like we don't have enough money. We don't, we're trying this, we're trying that. We're trying to avoid it. And then here comes like this, crescendo of things and we have to go. So the first thing that helps me in the crisis is okay, if this moment is here, that means that we can meet it.

We can meet this moment. That Allah is with us,we've been praying and asking to move out for a while, and we didn't think we had the capacity on our own. And now we're in the position where we are being forced that this is our only move left, right? Like checkmate, there's no other move that we can go.

So I have to believe, right? And here's just comes the place where, You get to choose your beliefs. I have to believe that Allah is going to come through for us.

Allah is going to come through for us and this is going to work because I just believe it has to, right? I don't believe that we're going to be homeless.

I don't believe that we're going to be out on the streets. I don't believe any of that. I believe that Allah is going to come through for us. So that's the first thing is to believe that the crisis. I will be supported through it.

Then,Once, The emotions and commotions of all of that, right? Because that doesn't just happen oh my God, I have to move out, God's with me. It's like crying and saying, no, what are we going to do? It's over, we can't do that. So once you deal with all that emotion and like, okay, God's with us, we can do it.

Okay, we have to figure it out. Is like the ability to, journal and try and see clearly

what opportunities are available. How can we do this? Right? What, vulnerabilities do I need to open up? So, opening up more to my parents about, the full scope of, what's going on. My husband opening up to his parents. 

us thinking about, the assets, the resources, the different things we have available to us that, maybe we didn't want to touch before or we have to risk or whatever. And okay, what's available to us? And then. allowing things to come. Hi. My, my husband's mother is white and she, musel us.

She's a wonderful woman and, offered to support us in that time. It gave us, this large chunk of cash that helped us in that moment. She had been saving money for us. She wanted us to buy a house. I'm like, we can't. We can't afford rent. So she's okay, I'm going to give you this portion for you to move out and whatever.

But I'm, saving the rest. and Okay, doing that and then, taking more chances in our business or, promoting ourselves more to sell different things, which always feels uncomfortable to put yourself, your stuff, your work out there for sale, especially if you feel like, you don't want to be salesy or, whatever, all of those things.

So, literally my coaching business. Entirely has been grown out of feeling the pressure that, I'm supposed to promote it more.

And I'm just like, okay, I'm doing the work alone. just send it to the people and God is constantly sending me reminders. no, you've got to sell it. You've got to sell it.

You've got to tell the people you've got to

Dr. Rose Aslan: you.

Zahra al - Jabri (2): no, can't you just make them come? I'm here. They can come to me if they want. I don't want to go

around, like letting people know or come in. I can help you. Nope. And God constantly you've got to

sell it. so. Creating the, the different mechanisms and things.

So allow for more sales, allow for more people to come in and get supported, allow for that exchange of my support for their, money, and not make, again, going out of the mind drama of making it weird. It's you need money, and you have something that people would pay for, like, why are you making this weird?

Dr. Rose Aslan: Marcella.

Zahra al - Jabri (2): so, yeah. Believing God could help me, then looking at my available resources, and then just taking each step. Okay, we got some money from his mom. Okay, we're making some more sales here. Okay, now we need to go look for a place. Going out and looking for a place, and seeing, what's available, what makes sense for our family.

The place that we found, the place that we found is this place, right? It's this beautiful place. It has a pool. You're like, oh my God, this is outside of our budget. Wow, there's nothing, there's, we had these different parameters, we have our four kids, we have all these different parameters that we need to, live within, and realizing like, No, this is the one.

This is the one and it seems like it's out of reach like it doesn't, I don't know how this is possible. but following the signs like this is the one. So now believe that it's the one, and align, you know yourself and your resources around it, make that first month's payment, and, Just working step by step.

So I guess the thing that probably has changed for me the most, from the spiritual work is allowing my, is. Reining myself back in from when I get too caught up into the future. okay.

Dr. Rose Aslan: and all that?

Zahra al - Jabri (2): And overthinking exactly, right? okay. We're in a financial crisis. We have to move out. yeah, we can come up with the first month's rent, but then we're screwed.

Okay, yeah, sure. All of this is aligned and we have first month's rent, but I can't do it because how am I going to pay for the months after that? I have no idea and no way. And now having the, the spiritual strength to be like, okay, I just have to do today and trust that Allah again will be there for me, the next month.

Now it's been like 18 months that we lived here, but literally for the first, I don't know, for the first eight months. Every month it was just like, dear God, what miracle do you have for us this month? I don't know. but it's only through that kind of ability that I now have to like, not let myself get too caught up in the future that I'm able to like, Take the steps now that have led me to, constantly get reinforced that Allah is with us.

Allah is on my side. Allah is supporting me. Allah is taking care of me. Like it is literally only through his grace and his mercy that I am here.

Dr. Rose Aslan: Well, thank you for that very vulnerable, sharing of that very big challenge. That's scary. I lived in Los Angeles and that's literally one of the reasons I left, I just couldn't manage living there as a single mother with one salary. I just, I couldn't. I just couldn't, I had to leave.

And so I understand that completely because it's so expensive to live in that area. And, I really appreciate you sharing that. And I'm so glad that you guys were able to make it work. And, it's inspirational to others to hear, how do you make these kinds of works? Most of us have experienced financial difficulties at some point or another. And it's excellent that you were able to, Forge through it and get to the other side too. And I hope it persists in that way and you receive much abundance and blessings going forward from now.

Zahra al - Jabri (2): I mean, thank you. Yes.

Dr. Rose Aslan: Yeah.

So as we wrap up and come to the end of this beautiful conversation, would you, do you have any pearls of wisdom you'd like to share with listeners?

Anything that really stands out to you as life lessons learned? 

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Yes. what I would say is dream bigger in part of what, What is holding you back, what is keeping you stagnant, what is making you unhappy, is looking around again at what's available, what you can do, and be like, ah. I can only live here. I can only work in this type of place. I can only make this amount of money.

I can only, whatever it is, and limiting your dreams by what you see in the world and the dunya as available to you and constraining yourself to that. And what I've learned, and what I coach on, and what I'll share is that when you make your dream bigger, When you really allow your heart to like, no, I really, I want to do this and I want to go there and I want to build that.

And I want to have this type of relationship and all of the things. The first thing that's going to happen is that it's going to inspire you. It's going to enliven you. Cause yeah, that's a life I want to live. Right. If you're feeling like kind of blah about your life, it's because it's not the life you want to live.

It's the life you think you can live. You have to live that you're forced to live. You're destined to live because of whatever. But when you dream bigger and it's Oh my God, I'd love to live like that.

Dr. Rose Aslan: yeah.

Zahra al - Jabri (2): It activates something within you that activation is your spirit is your soul coming alive of yes, this is what this is, each of our dreams are unique.

your spirit is coming alive and yes, this is what we were here for. That's what we're made to do. And the second thing is then that it will buy the bigger dream. If you allow yourself to dream it and. Imagine it. And then get yourself to the place of belief that, well, I believe it's possible.

There's got to be some way that it possibly could happen, even if you don't know how, even if it seems highly improbable, but there's some slight possibility, right? We all know the rags to riches or the popper or the slumdog millionaire stories. When you believe that, that's what's going to bring you to spirituality and bring you to Allah.

Because what happens then after that is that you will, you'll try to do the calculations on your own. If I move here if I do that if I did it, and you come to a place where like I can't does not compute the math is not mapping right like the math cannot work I'll never be able to have that life and but then you'll still feel the desire for it.

And that's what brings you to Allah. You're like, it's only through, it's only through God. It's only through God. I can only get this. If God helps me some way, if God makes a path for me in some way, if all of these different things align for it to come together and then that will set you on the journey to be closer to God, to be closer to yourself, to be pursuing the things you actually want to pursue.

and so my book. my pearl of wisdom is to dream bigger and then pray to God to support you to facilitate to, facilitate it for you and what this. The number one thing that this means is that you'll have to have courage because it'll be super scary. It'll be me to move when I have no money, I always wanted to live with a house in California with a pool.

And now I am, but if you had ever asked me, how can I do the math did not math. I could never do it, but here I am.

Dr. Rose Aslan: Excellent. That's beautiful advice and I completely concur with you, having thought I could just come to Istanbul for a year and then I realized I could just live here permanently and not live there anymore. Like I never imagined, but then when I started to imagine just happened, right? So I definitely concur with you that when you actually start to. One things and desire them and pray for them. They actually start to manifest in your life. So excellent. so where can people find you if they're interested in getting to know more about you and what you have to offer? Where can they find you online?

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Yeah, so I'm most active on Instagram, and my handle is at practical Muslim. and then I have a website, it's limitless. practicalmuslim. com.

Those are the two places where you can find me if you want to email me it's Zahra at practical Muslim calm.

Dr. Rose Aslan: thank you. And those will be in the show notes as well for people to find them there. Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to learn from you and to hear your story on Rahma with Rose. Thank you so much.

Zahra al - Jabri (2): Yes, thank you so much Rose what a beautiful interview you asked me some amazing questions and I'm so excited to hear people's feedback.

Dr. Rose Aslan: Yes, we shall see. Thank you.