Living Islam with Purpose: A Conversation with Humera Khan

In this powerful and heart-opening episode of Rahma with Rose, I sit down with Humera Khan, a London-based community leader, educator, and faith-based activist who has spent decades merging social justice and spirituality into an embodied path. Humera opens up about her journey from cultural Islam as a young woman to recognizing activism, motherhood, and community-building as deeply spiritual practices, challenging traditional notions of spirituality as quiet withdrawal from society.

She candidly reflects on how patriarchal and authoritarian interpretations of Islam have constrained the richness of lived faith, offering a critical yet compassionate critique of shame-based approaches that remain far too common in Muslim communities. With grace and wisdom, Humera shares the personal tools that have helped her stay grounded through adversity, confront gender injustice in religious spaces, and embrace her “enoughness” as a British Muslim woman.

Humera Khan is a freelance Equality, Diversity, and Inclusion consultant and trustee of the London-based An-Nisa Society, a pioneering Muslim women's organisation she co-founded. For over four decades, she has worked at the intersection of community development, policy, and social justice, focusing on the needs of Muslim families. Humera has led and developed projects in Islamic counselling, supplementary education, youth engagement, and sexual health—most notably through her Cycle of Life book series. She has contributed to national conversations through governmental advisory roles and interfaith dialogue, and continues to write and speak on issues such as identity, gender, Islamophobia, and family welfare.

Connect with Humera through An-Nisa Society: www.an-nisasociety.org

Transcript

Rose Aslan (0:2.347)

Assalamu alaikum, hey my era, and welcome to Rahma with Rose!

Humera Khan (0:6.555)

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me to be part of this.

Rose Aslan (0:9.365)

Yeah, I'm so excited to speak to you today because we're we're introduced by a mutual friend. And then when I found out more about you, I was like, wow, you are a powerhouse in the UK. And based on our conversation, I just learned so much from you about the history, the oral history of Muslims in the UK and all the different factions and movements and thoughts. So I'm excited to learn from you and for others to hear your story.

Rose Aslan (0:35.855)

your personal story, your professional story, and how that kind of intertwines together. yes, wonderful. So I always start with the same question I ask all of my guests is, can you remember when you first started getting interested in spirituality?

Humera Khan (0:42.110)

Me too, I'm looking forward to it.

Humera Khan (0:51.560)

Well, you know, when you're brought up culturally Muslim, I was brought up more culturally than religiously, where it's certain things are embedded and you don't think about it too much. So I wasn't really conscious of spirituality when I was very young. When I was sort of towards my late teens, I became conscious that other faiths had a spirituality, which I found attractive. I didn't really see it in our

I didn't feel it in our cultural environment. And I always thought that would be really nice to have that kind of feeling. So I wasn't particularly spiritual in the traditional sense that people understand it growing up. And I would say that I'm still working it out. But I think it was this moment actually sitting in a church with a friend where I felt I really wish I could

feel what people feel in such an environment. And I suppose I'm bit more of an activist, a little bit more of a realist. And I wasn't really searching for a spiritual path. I was, because I was born in inner city London context with a lot of complexities, you know, in the 60s and 70s, I was more looking for social justice. So I would say that my

primary motivation that I can remember first was social justice rather than spirituality. But it's something that came along the way and I think that it was once we set up our organization, Unlisted Society, and then was very fortunate to meet very good teachers that I then developed more of a relationship with the spiritual part.

Rose Aslan (2:22.093)

I'm

Rose Aslan (2:41.262)

Can I ask you, thank you for sharing that, can I ask you, you said spirituality in the traditional sense. Can you tell me what you mean by that and maybe perhaps your love and work in social activism is perhaps, it sounds like a form of spirituality. What would you say with that?

Humera Khan (2:46.922)

You

Humera Khan (2:59.904)

Well, it took me a long time to realize that and it was through the guidance of teachers, because I kept saying, because when you're involved in social action, your headspace is constantly, you know, in a mess because you're dealing with so many terrible things and you're trying to make sense of a lot of stuff. And spirituality doesn't always help. And I had this conflict within myself when learning about faith and spirituality that spirituality sort of stops you from being socially active because

Rose Aslan (3:27.372)

Mmm.

Humera Khan (3:29.492)

To do the spiritual work means stepping back from everything and the spiritual people that I knew weren't engaged in the social action. So I had a conflict within myself between how do you follow a spiritual path and to deal with social justice at the same time. And it was through the sort of help of teachers that I had that I began to see that working on the path of social justice is also a social spirituality, it's spiritual path.

Rose Aslan (3:33.526)

Thank you.

Rose Aslan (3:56.908)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (3:58.740)

And also being a mother later in life as well, you know, when you've been busy and you've been active and then you have to take time out of motherhood, you sort of feel that you're not important any longer. And then I also was, you know, enabled to see that motherhood and its spiritual path as well. So that you are constantly on this spiritual path, certainly as women in the things that we do. I would say that's not so...

Rose Aslan (4:18.419)

Mm.

Rose Aslan (4:22.284)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, that's beautiful to hear.

Humera Khan (4:27.786)

traditionally explained in that way. And my stereotype of spirituality is that you're sitting in a very sort of, know, quiet, don't speak, sitting there, removed from dunya. And that's my stereotype that took me a long time to deal with.

Rose Aslan (4:29.418)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (4:33.568)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (4:37.724)

Mm hmm.

Rose Aslan (4:43.531)

Yeah, and you're not the only one who may know that's why I'm that's why I have this podcast, for example, because I speak to women from around the world whose stories often for many of them is also social justice as spirituality, right? So the thing is, I think that we've been given this narrative of spirituality is like the monk on half of the mountain or a Sufi who just all they do is do zikr all day long, the cell, right? But the rest of us don't have the opportunity to do that. We need to work. We need to raise our family. We have so many things to do.

Humera Khan (4:50.633)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Humera Khan (5:0.894)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes, yes, yes.

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Rose Aslan (5:13.002)

So I love that you're able to notice and that you gained awareness that what you're doing was actually a form of spirituality. Would you be willing to share like what was it that helped you understand that? What did you learn from your teachers and how did that shift along the way?

Humera Khan (5:17.246)

Yeah.

Yes, yes.

Humera Khan (5:27.870)

Because my first teacher, Sheikh Mohammed, he didn't teach the Quran in the conventional sense either, because we were already set up our organization, we were dealing with a lot of issues in the community, and we had questions to that, and then he opened up the Quran to address some of those things. mean, gender was a big one in those days when there was hardly, can you imagine this is late 80s.

Rose Aslan (5:54.763)

Mm.

Humera Khan (5:55.316)

There was hardly any information that was beneficial on the issue of gender in those days. And so he really opened up looking at the Qur'an and the stories and what the Qur'an says about men and women being equal, know, the stuff we take for granted now and addressing some, you know, addressing social justice within that actually. And then, of course, then later my current teacher, Sheikah Haley-McCrowse, and how she

Rose Aslan (6:14.828)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (6:23.838)

we address a lot of social issues with her using our scriptures and using our sources to try to understand them. Because there's this sort of, we look back at our history in a very sort of detached way and it's very sort of happy, clappy glory, you know, and victory without really understand what was people's real lives. What was...

Rose Aslan (6:27.979)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (6:50.456)

7th century Arabia really like? What was the Prophet Sallallahu really dealing with? How did he manage or not manage to do something? You know, what were the struggles in the change, changes that he wanted to do? We don't really talk about them because we sort of think, oh, it's done, Quran is done, Prophet Sunnah is there, Seerah is there. We don't have to think of, in fact, we make scripture dead. We kill it by doing that. And we have to look at

Rose Aslan (7:1.707)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (7:13.899)

Hmm.

Humera Khan (7:18.528)

I think our scriptures are something constantly living, living and that we live through it and we learn from it in that way. And I think because we have this sort of habit of the way we teach Quran is that you learn it by parrot fashion and you don't understand it. And we end up doing millions and millions of duas, which we don't really understand for every occasion. that we don't have time to breathe. There's no time to exhale to say that all the

Rose Aslan (7:42.987)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (7:47.924)

So I sort of had a bit of a reaction actually, some years ago where I felt I just don't want to know every Dua that exists. I don't want to know. I don't have time to learn them. And I don't remember them when I maybe need them. And then what I do is I just say it in English, right? If I need spiritual help and guidance, I just say it in English, something that helps me. I can't learn all of these. Of course, there are many very beautiful Duas. It's not about that. But it's just what I personally need for myself.

Rose Aslan (8:0.221)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (8:4.043)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (8:18.505)

and for our faith to be practical in our lives, rather than something that we're constantly learning but never feeling satisfied with, and something far removed from ourselves, something that we feel that we can never achieve. And there's really very little idea of small victories for us, that small things that we feel, I understood that and I managed to do that. So spirituality for me is always and continues to be something

Rose Aslan (8:27.070)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (8:36.340)

and

Humera Khan (8:47.116)

I struggle with and you know and I think part of the misconception is that Islam is also explained to us as something that we surrender to and we explain it about being something that we surrender to without explaining it's something that we also struggle with right because you know jihad is incumbent on all of us and that's our personal jihad right so and when we pray we pray

towards the mirab, which the root word of that is to struggle, right? And so we don't have this idea that we are constantly working within ourselves to struggle with all the elements that we deal with, ego and desire and the other things. So Islam therefore doesn't become a toolkit for us. are not really, we can't draw on it when we need it most because we don't understand it enough.

Rose Aslan (9:27.451)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (9:38.611)

Mm-mm.

Rose Aslan (9:45.162)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (9:45.834)

It's not explained to us in that way. So I always used to give like the school that we run say to parents is that, I always say that we should have a sort of homeopathic approach. A little bit of the illness is the cure, right? That we can't remove ourselves from dunya. We live in a dunya. And when Allah created dunya at the end of the day, because especially with Sufism, right? It's all dunya, it's all dunya, you have to remove yourself from dunya.

Rose Aslan (9:48.125)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (10:13.652)

And that creates a pathology in the mind of people is that the dunya, the world is bad. Right? This is just temporary. We just live here for a short period and we struggle and we suffer. And if we suffer, we have to deal with it, you know, and we really don't have much that we could just do the quran, we just pray. But we actually have very little agency to change it. Right. So so therefore, but dunya was created by Allah and dunya is beautiful. The world is beautiful.

Rose Aslan (10:17.651)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (10:29.001)

Thank

Rose Aslan (10:34.505)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (10:43.466)

creation and humanity is amazing if we understand it better and how do we get the best out of it? But of course we know what the, we know being a human being is an obstacle course, right? And we have to know that it's an obstacle course and safeguard ourselves against that. So, you know, if we don't see our faith as a complex,

Rose Aslan (10:55.753)

Mm.

Rose Aslan (11:2.419)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (11:10.656)

amalgamation of many things that we need to do, what do we really understand about it?

Rose Aslan (11:18.289)

Yeah, I resonate so much with you, Humeira, on everything you've just said. You know, the idea that a lot of people approach Islam as if it's this dead religion, right? And we just take the lessons from the seventh century and apply it to our 21st century lives as if that works, right? And the way you're talking about it is so different as this act of being a Muslim is this act of process of discovering and connecting with these ancient traditions and ancient primary source texts, the Quran and Hadith, but figuring out how they actually apply to our lives as modern humans.

Humera Khan (11:26.992)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Humera Khan (11:37.056)

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rose Aslan (11:48.113)

And how can we be in this world, the material world, the dunya? Not be of it, but be in it and do the work we have to do. Because you're right, some Sufis do talk about the dunya is just a prison, it's an ugly place, and we just have to tolerate it while waiting for something better. But you're doing this work on the ground where you see that you're given this opportunity to do something good. And we can't just sit back and do zikr all day. Perhaps what you're saying is the work.

Humera Khan (11:52.117)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (12:2.218)

Yes. Yes.

Humera Khan (12:11.039)

Yes.

Humera Khan (12:14.452)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (12:16.720)

we do really is that zikr is that remembrance of God.

Humera Khan (12:20.180)

And also we have to get our mindset right, right? Because whether we are actually able or not able to affect change around us, because everybody's limited by their context, right? Is that we actually at least have to know what's right and wrong and the context that we operate in. So for example, if there's some injustice happening in schools here, let's say for example, mainstream schools.

Rose Aslan (12:21.926)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (12:49.950)

Right. And maybe I, I'm in a situation where there's, it's powerless. I can't do anything about it, but I have to be aware of what I'm actually dealing with in order to know that there's a time when you have to step back and maybe take another direction or maybe leave it. Maybe you're not the right person to deal with it. therefore, you know, not everybody has to do everything. Right. But I think it's about being aware of a concept of justice.

Rose Aslan (13:12.625)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (13:19.260)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (13:20.032)

being aware of our egos in it, be aware that what is our objectives of why we're motivated to do whatever we're doing. I mean, it's like, for example, if somebody's working in finance, which you don't necessarily think is the most spiritual place, you know, it's business, it's trade, it's all that kind of stuff. Of course, you're not going to bring religion into there every two minutes kind of thing. It's not a place of religious discussion. Right.

Rose Aslan (13:36.913)

Thank

Humera Khan (13:48.640)

So therefore your transaction in that environment is in your behavior and in your ethics that you take to it. You don't have to talk about religion. You don't have to say anything. But if you're honest and honorable in those other work environments, that's your spirituality speaking, that's your terria, that's your, you know, the effect that you can have on other people if they see that you're an honorable person, right? And that you don't treat people badly.

Rose Aslan (13:56.743)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (14:14.673)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (14:18.452)

So therefore, how we show our sense of faith really has many dimensions to it. And one of the things that does frustrate me is that the way often Islam is discussed, that there's only one expression of it. It's not about Sufi or Salafi or anything like that, but the public discourses in a sense is very stereotypical.

Rose Aslan (14:30.311)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (14:39.494)

you

Rose Aslan (14:46.778)

Thank

Humera Khan (14:47.264)

You have to dress a certain way, if you look a certain way, you have to talk a certain way. You know, you have to believe things in a certain way, which is not true. Right. We have variety of expression. have variety of of goodness. We can be good in many different ways. Right. And I think we have to. Promote that much more.

Rose Aslan (14:54.415)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (14:58.853)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (15:2.456)

Okay.

Rose Aslan (15:12.078)

I fully agree with that for sure. It's that, you know, someone comes with the background of scholarship and being academic who studied Islam. I didn't study Islam. I studied the Islam and the infinite number of ways that Muslims interpret and apply Islam in their life. There is no the Islam. There's peoples that are standing on what the one Islam is, but it's their interpretation. really wish

Humera Khan (15:27.252)

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Humera Khan (15:35.560)

Yes. Yes.

Rose Aslan (15:38.023)

scholars and religious leaders got more real about the fact that they're offering interpretation based on their subjective experience, understanding of Islam, rather than instead they say, is the Islam. If you don't follow my interpretation, you're basically going to hell in a sinner. It's very harmful, don't you think?

Humera Khan (15:42.884)

Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Humera Khan (15:50.868)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (15:56.446)

I think we have this sort of legacy of patriarchy and a political leadership which is sort of authoritarian. Whether we like it or not, Muslims have to acknowledge our political leadership has not been great, right? It's been dynastic, it's been empire building. They may have done a few nice social projects here and there, but overall it was self-interest and it's about expansion, it was about wealth and power.

Rose Aslan (16:5.919)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (16:9.732)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (16:23.312)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (16:25.028)

Muslims don't like to be told that, but that's true, right? And, you know, and our family and social structures, not everywhere, but pretty much have been patriarchal where, you know, both men and women under the patriarch have very little say. So we're not used to having an opinion. And we're not used to questioning and challenging. The way we're taught is not taught. We're not taught to have critical thinking.

Rose Aslan (16:45.371)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (16:52.987)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (16:54.772)

I remember being told endlessly in the early years, know, how can you have an opinion? You're just giving an opinion, you know, how can you say this? How can you say that? All of my have said this and all of my have said that, you know. And, you know, this is how they quieten you really. It's a big put down. And I understand this, of course, there's a difference between an opinion and between what you have understood through proper

Rose Aslan (17:12.262)

and

Rose Aslan (17:18.971)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (17:23.199)

study and sexual understanding and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, the point is that there is such a thing as having an opinion. It's not her arm. The Quran is actually very clear to say, think and to debate and to stand up if you feel something is unjust and everything. but those things are not really promoted very much. They're not really explained because nobody wants to be challenged.

Rose Aslan (17:23.846)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (17:38.448)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (17:47.845)

Thank

Rose Aslan (17:51.556)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (17:52.542)

Right. Most of our teachers, whether they're small imam or a big scholar, they don't want to be challenged. know that I've spoken to many over the years. It's that if you ask a question, you just listen to the answer and that's it. There's a few here and there that, you know, you can have a debate with about things and question them. Why is that? But generally I would say you don't go to a scholar to have a discussion. You go to hear what they're saying and you have to accept it.

Rose Aslan (17:55.653)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (18:3.567)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rose Aslan (18:17.529)

Yeah, it's so unfortunate, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it would be much better if they can actually be open to having a discussion and ask your questions and let you ask more questions and follow up and be able to express doubts and uncertainties and be welcomed into that, right? But you do it. You do it, Hameda. How do you do it? Because I think you're a very brave person. Huh?

Humera Khan (18:28.990)

Yes.

Humera Khan (18:33.342)

Yeah, yeah. Because you see.

I'm not a scholar. I'm not a scholar, but I think I have enough basic understanding of stuff to know, to say, okay, think this way and think that way. And I think like, you know, I've been very fortunate, you know, my own insecurities over the years have been carefully, you know, taken care of by responsible people, continue to be, I have, you know, on people who I trust.

you know, who I can go blah, blah, blah to and, you know, have a go at and say something, you know, and feel safe. And that's the hard thing. We don't have safe places to work through the complexities of our thinking, first of all, and then our emotional relationship to what we experience in the reality. So there needs to be much more that because as Muslims, we get that in a non-Muslim context, that when you go to a non-Muslim context, you are

Rose Aslan (19:8.728)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (19:12.548)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (19:15.972)

Mm-mm.

Rose Aslan (19:31.864)

Mm-hmm, exactly.

Humera Khan (19:36.320)

encouraged to come from within, to talk, to question, to study, to go off and explore things, and to be dynamic. But our religious context is not dynamic in that sense. And this is why a lot of young generation, even though they see themselves as Muslim and everything, they don't draw from their faith for anything because it doesn't make any sense in their dunya world, in the world that they're living in.

Rose Aslan (19:40.901)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (19:47.460)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (20:0.068)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (20:6.174)

because they get their dynamic ability and their professionalism in a non-Muslim context. So they're learning how to be good at what they do, whatever it is, not because of their Islam. People don't like to be told that, but it's a reality.

Rose Aslan (20:13.422)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (20:25.527)

What do you think could happen so that young people could start to drink from their rich heritage and traditions and really use that as a source for what they do in addition to the secular teachings and studies they have?

Humera Khan (20:41.298)

It's a difficult question because there's many things that could be done. I think that the way we teach religion and in light of this recent scandal that's happening with the Almagrin Foundation, I haven't read too much about it, but I know the basics. And the right questions need to be asked because of course that is a specific issue which has

Rose Aslan (21:0.545)

Imsharif, yeah.

Humera Khan (21:11.072)

criminal elements to it, which is a whole different ballgame. But what we should be asking us, ourselves reading about it and looking into it, is there are bigger issues here. There are a lot of things here we have to really look at and see what are we doing wrong that such happen. It's a really, it's a massive issue. We know there's people like Ingrid Mattson who's more specifically. But of course, you know, these things are not

Rose Aslan (21:19.972)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (21:35.470)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (21:40.096)

fully supported, right? But it's happening, at least she's doing something. And we need to look at safeguarding as an issue generally, but also teaching. We have to look at how we teach men and women, young people about sex, about sexuality, about sexual responsibility, sexual accountability, and not pathologically have a relationship between the gender, right?

Rose Aslan (21:41.092)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (21:59.093)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (22:6.445)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Humera Khan (22:8.660)

You know, we have a really overall problematic relationship with each other. We don't know how to communicate, right? But we can do it in a non-Muslim context, right? Like we'll go on the bus and you might say hi to somebody or you'll be at school or you'll be communicating somewhere else. You've gone for a coffee somewhere and you're in a mixed environment and there's no bad behavior, right? But you know how to communicate in that environment.

Rose Aslan (22:26.467)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (22:36.397)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (22:37.012)

But immediately you get into a Muslim environment, suddenly everything changes. And so I think we have to see what we're doing wrong. And these things don't change overnight. I know, for example, we have organizations here, a few small ones for young people, and they don't segregate. And it's very healthy. And people come in because...

Rose Aslan (22:41.379)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (23:1.250)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (23:4.884)

They know the rules of engaging between the genders because they don't learn it from us, they learn it in other places and they have a respectful relationship with each other and they bring that to this particular organization. So why can't we make that a general thing that we should know how to be respectful?

Rose Aslan (23:11.575)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (23:22.583)

Yeah, thank you. just resonate again with everything you're saying and I really hope those listening can hear that there are things and steps that people, Muslims can do in the communities to make these changes. So as this woman who's done such amazing activism work in your life and you spoke about being enough as a Muslim and being enough for what God wants of us, what do you tell people who feel like they're never doing enough, being enough as a Muslim? How do you respond to that? Knowing what your enoughness is even?

Humera Khan (23:52.020)

Well, something somebody said on a program working on at the moment, young, successful woman, Muslim woman here talking to students, right? Because the students were saying, know, they're sharing their lack of confidence, saying, I want to do this, I want to do that. And, know, there's too many things, you know. And she said to them, look, it's good to have ideas. It's good to think and be creative and imaginative. And you shouldn't limit yourself. But

Keep them there. You don't have to do them all at the same time. Right? Just see where you're at now. Be aware, self-aware. See what works for you at this time. Right? You don't have to lose everything else. Get the experience because part of life is to go do stuff, get experience. It either works for you or it doesn't work for you. Then you make another decision if it doesn't work for you. So, you know, but you don't have to lose sight of all the things that you want to do.

And maybe what you're doing as a profession is not the same as what your passions are. But you can do both. Pursue your passion. You have to have an income, but you pursue your passions in another context. So everything is possible if you don't overwhelm yourself. And to realize that while you can be aware of the multitude of things that need to be done, and certainly in a social activism context, there's so much that needs to be done.

Rose Aslan (24:56.610)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (25:6.945)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (25:17.852)

when you become aware of it, you you want to do it all, know what you can actually do. Right? So, you know, don't over overwhelm yourself and give yourself time to learn that while you're doing whatever you're doing, you also have to learn that's part of your growth. I've learned so much by doing the work so much. Like I said, I'm working on this project with young women at the moment.

Rose Aslan (25:22.870)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (25:46.546)

and I'm learning from them. These are 20 year olds and I'm learning from them every time we meet. So learning never stops and it adds to your sense of competence in whatever that you do if you keep yourself open to learning.

Rose Aslan (26:2.508)

Yeah, oh, beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. love that you're learning from these 20-year-old students. It never stops and we can learn from the people much younger, much older, and everyone in between. So earlier in the conversation, Humayra, you mentioned Islam as a toolkit. I would love to know more about your specific toolkit that you use, either from within Islam or from without. Like, what do you use when you're going through a tough time? Where do you go? What do you do to balance yourself and regulate yourself?

Humera Khan (26:6.664)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Humera Khan (26:30.676)

Well, historically I've never been very good at meditation, right? And I do engage in certain Vicar practices. I'm not sort of somebody who does the curve all the time, but I do it from time to time. And it's taken me a long time to my brain to switch off and myself to sort of go in and, you

Rose Aslan (26:34.006)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (26:59.102)

and to be able to enjoy a meditation moment, right? And I think what I tend to do these days, because over the years there was never time actually to have too much space, is I like to just be by myself. I really enjoy my own company more as I've got older. I think COVID helped with that actually because we didn't have a choice. Yes.

Rose Aslan (27:17.599)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (27:24.479)

and we all had to become, enjoy our solitude.

Humera Khan (27:28.766)

Yeah, so I think I really started enjoying my own company and listening to myself and trying to untangle the different emotions I might be feeling. And if something has troubled me, I try to look at it and say, OK, this happened or this person said this and it's made me feel like X, Y, Z inside. You know, you know, is it something that I need to work at?

and address with this person at some point, or maybe by stepping back and thinking about it, I've understood what was behind what they were saying or doing. so therefore then I don't react to it so much because maybe I just reacted in the moment and felt pain by it or whatever, but actually I didn't need to feel like that. So just working out, looking at whatever is troubling me and trying to see how I can untangle it and

And one of the lessons actually I learned from my first teacher was, which was a difficult lesson for me because I'm a very confrontational person in nature, is that you don't have to deal with everything straight away. Just because something happened at this moment, it doesn't mean that you have to go right back and confront it immediately. And I'm not like that. I wasn't like that in nature. And I've learned over the years to say that

It's actually my ego that makes me feel like going, ah, and strangling somebody, and step back and step back and step back from it. And that I don't need to confront everything. And maybe there are better ways of dealing with a situation if it's a tricky situation, a better way than I might have dealt with. And sometimes the situation resolves itself because that person has also had time to understand. And sometimes things take years.

Rose Aslan (29:1.609)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (29:18.176)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (29:26.654)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (29:27.060)

There are situations in the past that have really upset me or frustrated me and I've dug deep and I sort of ask Allah for guidance to not let it consume me and all that kind of stuff. And eventually, not through any intervention of my own, that person or that organization or whatever changes their perspective or they redress whatever the issue. So that's happened quite often in my experience where

Rose Aslan (29:32.416)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (29:44.159)

Mm.

Humera Khan (29:55.904)

when I've managed to step back and not be confrontational and leave those people to work it out for themselves, things can change by themselves. They realize on their own. So, you I think there's not one approach to anything. It's about you working out what's the best thing. Right. So, for example, with politics, let's say, which many people are very much engaged in at the moment, one of the things that troubles me a little bit is that

There's lots of voices saying, you have to say this and you have to say that. And if you're not saying this, they're going to cancel you. You know, don't think anybody has a right to say that to anybody because you don't know what people are doing. You don't know what people are doing with it. A, you don't know what struggles people have. Right. And B, you don't know what they're doing quietly. For sure. I think an injustice has to be stood up against for sure. Right. But there's many ways to stand up against injustice.

Rose Aslan (30:29.235)

Yes, exactly.

Rose Aslan (30:36.991)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (30:41.887)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (30:54.568)

an intelligent way. mean, I think what we've seen is increasingly that certainly a younger generation are so much better informed about the world that we're living in. They're able to respond with professional and intelligent ways to very complex critical issues because they've studied, they know they're professional, they're not reacting from emotion, you know, all that kind of stuff. So we're seeing the development and growth of a generation of people who are addressing certain things much more competently.

Rose Aslan (31:22.974)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (31:24.606)

Right, Inshallah, I hope that grows.

Rose Aslan (31:26.814)

At the same time, think what you referred to is like the shame-based activism. I've been seeing a lot more spreading everywhere, where all the good people I know are feeling really guilty and even want to speak out less because of how certain people online are speaking to what they think is them, probably, I don't know if it is them, and making them feel awful about themselves because they're not doing the specific things they should be doing online, right? How do you, what would you say to those people who just like suffering internally because

Humera Khan (31:31.136)

Yeah. Yeah.

Humera Khan (31:38.589)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (31:45.352)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (31:55.849)

They feel that shame-based activism is directed towards them, and they feel helpless.

Humera Khan (31:55.967)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (32:1.664)

The thing is not everybody's on social media first of all, right? So therefore you're not going to see everything that people may be doing in their lives, right? So there's only a small section of the population who engage at that level of social media. So it's not fair to judge the whole according to a small minority group. And then I think that they have a right to their opinions, but they have to think more carefully about how they say it. You could be persuasive on something without being directive, right?

Rose Aslan (32:6.332)

Yeah. Yeah.

Rose Aslan (32:13.267)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (32:31.060)

You know, it's the same thing like with religion, when people say you've got to believe this and you've got to believe that. Nobody has to believe anything. A person, if you want to, we should be persuading people because people see the point of it. But there's this view amongst Muslims, certainly about religion, is that it is as it is. You don't question it, you just accept it, full stop. Right? And there's no sense of that every human being is different and need to be persuaded differently.

Rose Aslan (32:36.797)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (32:42.822)

Mm hmm.

Rose Aslan (32:51.198)

Black away.

Rose Aslan (32:55.454)

Thank

Humera Khan (32:59.402)

to understand things so that they then take ownership of what they understand. So we're riddled with this guilt and shame and punitive ideas of both religion and politics and social things. then I think that this is not right. I think we have to change that. We're entitled to have strong views and opinions, but they're yours. If you then want to influence others,

Rose Aslan (33:24.721)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (33:29.182)

You need to be smart, right? You know, can't force anybody to think something, but you can persuade them with proper evidence, logical, rational, reasonable arguments, not some emotional thing, you know, kind of stuff, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rose Aslan (33:30.277)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (33:40.573)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's useful. Not shame-based, right? Instead of using logic and, yeah, and just, I love the idea of persuasion rather than shaming. I think that's much more impactful. When you shame someone, they just go within more. They sure will. And they're not gonna react in a positive way, but when you persuade them and they're convinced that actually they might actually start to persuade other people and actually have a positive ripple effect too. Yeah. Yeah, that's useful. Thank you.

Humera Khan (33:51.614)

Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Yes.

Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Rose Aslan (34:9.170)

A lot of people I speak to these days are really suffering from this, and they don't know what to do or how to respond. It's confusing times for people who care so much, they're deeply empathetic, but they don't feel like they're able to say or do necessarily the same as others, and then they feel like they failed society and themselves. So I think it's important to talk about this. Another question I have for you is you kind of touched upon this briefly before.

Humera Khan (34:12.745)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Humera Khan (34:25.000)

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Rose Aslan (34:35.321)

is can you talk about one or two challenges you've been through and how did you get through it? This is, again, because listeners are listening to this for inspiration from brilliant women such as yourselves. So what was in your toolbox? How did you cope through these big, whatever challenge you want to share with us?

Humera Khan (34:54.625)

Um, let me think. There's a whole arsenal full of challenges.

Rose Aslan (34:59.354)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (35:6.168)

I think one of the challenges has been in the work I do is communicating effectively with our men, right? And not being reactionary on gender issues all the time, right? Because I've been very much involved in that world. And, you know, one of the things that I talk about these days with women friends of mine is that

Rose Aslan (35:15.261)

you

Rose Aslan (35:20.284)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (35:33.044)

The world for us as women, certainly in the Western framework, diaspora context, it's totally different from 40 years ago, from when I first started getting involved in these things. Because it's very difficult to explain what it was like then. As a woman, you couldn't do anything. The voice was ara, you couldn't, you know, if you didn't look a certain way, didn't behave a certain way, you couldn't be anywhere. And certainly women's scholarship wasn't a thing at all. It's changed. Women have been...

Rose Aslan (35:40.829)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (35:58.405)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (36:2.772)

doing the work. Women are, and also men have been opening up a lot more to women for whatever reason, right? There's been a change. And women are much more represented in religious scholarship, academic scholarship, professional life. They're traveling independently much more. They're independent financially. They're doing a lot of voluntary work. They didn't everything competently. A lot of women are in that world, right? So we can't use the same rhetoric.

Rose Aslan (36:16.880)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (36:32.050)

on the issue of gender as we were 10 years ago, 20, whatever years ago, because we're changed, because it's changed now the context. It doesn't mean to say it's it's equal or anything, but we have much more agency and we have much more expertise amongst ourselves. So the question is, what do we then want as Muslim women? What are the solutions and how do we work towards it? The analysis, even though it has a way to go still, is there.

Rose Aslan (36:33.148)

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Humera Khan (37:0.466)

about inequalities and whatever, whatever within our Muslim framework. You know, we can, that's quite widely debated. And I think on average, Muslim women are reasonably confident about themselves as Muslim women. It's much better now than it ever used to be. But I think that we, what do we want? We still complain about the usual things about finding a husband, family life. There's something that all the usual things, lack of support. Okay, but what's your bigger, what's our bigger picture?

Rose Aslan (37:15.035)

Definitely.

Rose Aslan (37:25.647)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (37:29.711)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (37:30.432)

women? What do we think perspective that we bring to the table? And I'm tired to tell you the truth of moaning and groaning and being angry about these things. So this has been a challenge because of course women are in many different places. And when I say some of these things women don't like it because one of the things which is maybe controversial is that the Prophet Salaam didn't actually leave a blueprint

Rose Aslan (37:39.567)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (38:0.436)

for gender equality in the way we understand it today. It was a different context, a different thing. And later on after he died, Muslims went back into all sorts of bad practices or whatever. We don't really have a model in recent history that we can say, yeah, this is good. This is how it's worked. Right? And in today's world, gender has changed.

Rose Aslan (38:3.269)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (38:12.603)

.

Rose Aslan (38:23.323)

Yeah, that's true.

Humera Khan (38:29.792)

Our demographics have changed, our family structure, this is amongst ourselves. Family structures have changed, our expectations of education. Average family expects both the man and the woman, the girl and the boy to have an education. Two people in a relationship, marriage have to have an income, very difficult, you know, to not have two incomes. So there are many things which are changing our social structure, but our theology and our thinking is not changing to

Rose Aslan (38:47.322)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (38:57.402)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (38:58.130)

to adapt and recognize this. And so, for example, a simple example I would give is inheritance. There are many cases that I know of where households are being run by a woman and there's no men around and maybe there's some property or there's some money and say that the mother of the family dies. So what do you do with how you share the income? Because

Rose Aslan (39:24.484)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (39:26.780)

that, you know, say she had a son and one son and three girls, right? So, but the boy is not contributing towards anything. The girls are maintaining the family. To divide the inheritance then according to the strict, what people consider Sharia thing, which was appropriate maybe in the seventh century. Does that work now?

Rose Aslan (39:48.378)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (39:54.703)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (39:55.850)

I mean, people would most probably call me a heretic for saying that, but it's a question that needs to be looked at because there's an injustice there that is not being addressed.

Rose Aslan (40:0.066)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (40:7.290)

No, I think it's so valid everything you're saying. I love the idea of how you're describing the fact that we've developed as a society in terms of gender relations and our professions.

Humera Khan (40:17.484)

I would say developed sort of upsets people when you say we've developed and therefore it's tried. We've evolved into the people we are today, right? Whether we like it or not. can't... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rose Aslan (40:22.592)

We've changed.

Rose Aslan (40:28.749)

Yeah, except that our theology hasn't caught up with how we've changed. And so we have this disconnect really is what I'm hearing. So question for you, because we're talking about your personal challenges. you talked about how you are often able to be non-confrontational in the settings with religious leaders. I would love to hear from you how you've been to do that. Because I know for myself and many others, when we get triggered in a religious setting, a male scholar, teacher says something really triggering, that's really misogynistic,

I automatically want to go up to him and call him out, right? And it won't be the most constructive discussion, but I'm just like, that's what I feel I need to do. And maybe it's useful sometimes, but I would love to know, how do you do that? How have you learned over the many decades you've been involved of how to, because you've engaged with scholars around the UK and probably beyond, how do you do that?

Humera Khan (41:18.058)

Well, I think one of the things is, is with the work that my late husband did, I had the chance to meet a lot of scholars and big people coming to my house often and having conversations and listening to their conversations. And of course, often I would be triggered and I would say things, I think I learned over the years to hear them, right? To hear that sometimes I don't have to agree.

Rose Aslan (41:28.345)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (41:47.742)

to hear what their perspective is and understand and accept their perspective. It doesn't mean to say that I can't contribute something towards it, but I realize that, you know, we end up, we hear each other differently, right? And that we have to be able to hear and listen to each other and what each other is saying. And then when you see men vulnerable, I've seen a lot of these people vulnerable, you see them a bit differently.

Rose Aslan (41:51.354)

Mm.

Rose Aslan (42:0.825)

Mm.

Rose Aslan (42:12.770)

Hmm.

Humera Khan (42:16.392)

You see that they are struggling as well. They've got challenges in their lives. And often when you're doing this kind of work, you know, it's financially a struggle for most people and people have to maintain their families and their, you know, and also they have an audience that they have to, you know, keep engaged with, which is hard work also. So what I think because I've seen the men in their natural environment.

with their vulnerabilities and everything, then I can appreciate where they're coming from. So, and I think that's part of the problem is that we don't appreciate each other's experiences and where we're coming from. And when you hear each other, you can have empathy, right? There's no space for empathy in it. So, and my husband was a great joker. So, he's a great windup person. And so if people would come, he'd always ask the controversial questions.

Rose Aslan (42:46.361)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (42:53.154)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (42:59.299)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (43:9.888)

So was always a big debate and discussion about it. But I learned through that not to just get manic and, you know, reactionary and, know, and I learned the hard way perhaps that, you know, that I'm not listening enough. Even though I may think that they're not right in certain things and me challenging them doesn't make me right or wrong either.

Rose Aslan (43:21.933)

Yeah.

Humera Khan (43:37.458)

is about being engaged in a two-way process that creates some kind of change. But you have to work at it. It doesn't come just like that. As women, think we have to then, if we want things to change, we have to use, like for example, if you were going into politics, right? Somebody was going into politics.

Rose Aslan (43:47.243)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (44:6.152)

You know what the rules of the games are in politics. And you know that most women in a secular context, it's a struggle for women in politics overall, especially for the issues that they think are important. So you can either be somebody who shouts and screams and nobody takes you seriously, or you come with some tangible ideas, you work constructively with the system and you push for change and persuasion within that. Right. But it takes a lot of personal experience and personal growth to get to that point. Right. If you're lucky.

Rose Aslan (44:27.501)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (44:35.744)

You have it naturally, but who has it naturally, right? But you have to work to get it. I mean, I'm certainly not perfect, but it's been a struggle within myself throughout, you know, dealing with that inner turmoil, that conflict within myself, feeling that, oh, I didn't get the voice that I needed this play. wasn't able to explain myself. there's an, you know, there's a turmoil, constant turmoil, which I always felt.

Rose Aslan (44:37.868)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (45:6.488)

sense of injustice about. But I learnt to look at it and step back from it and that not to get so emotionally entangled in it all. then, and also I think it came with me being more confident in my own spiritual religious identity. The more I didn't feel I had to explain myself, the more I felt, well, you know, if you have a problem with me, it's not my problem, it's your problem, right? And I'm okay. I understand how I am. I know where I fit into things.

Rose Aslan (45:23.415)

Mm.

Rose Aslan (45:29.483)

Okay.

Humera Khan (45:34.430)

right? You know, and the more I felt confident with that over the years, then the less I felt I needed to prove myself to anybody. I don't have to prove myself to anybody, right? Yes.

Rose Aslan (45:44.693)

Yeah, I love that so much. I think what you're talking about is like opening up the possibility that dialogue and discussion, even with people we vehemently disagree with, can open up doors of possibility. Who knows what that is, but it opens up doors rather than shuts them in our face. Right. And it could lead to something good happening. Right. Yeah. Really appreciate you. So as we wrap up, there's one more question I have for you.

Humera Khan (45:58.388)

Yes. Yes.

Yes, yes, no.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

Rose Aslan (46:11.419)

That is, would you share some pearls of wisdom from life learned, things that you really think others might take into mind and consideration as they go about their lives?

Humera Khan (46:16.318)

But.

Humera Khan (46:22.666)

Gosh, that's so difficult.

Humera Khan (46:28.968)

I know, I think. Actually, the person I quote often is Maya Angelou actually, when she says, when you know better, you do better, right? Because I think I spent most of my life not thinking that I know anything or feeling, you know, didn't get the opportunities to do things. I didn't learn enough, I didn't know enough, you know, and there's this pressure in the Muslim community to

Rose Aslan (46:40.811)

you

Humera Khan (46:58.954)

to read so much, know every single classical book and to be able to quote people endlessly and to know that. Which I just didn't have the time to do quite a lot of it, right? And so therefore I sort of have the approach that I, with the limitations of what I know now, I'll do my best, right? But I work towards improving that. And when I know better,

Rose Aslan (47:2.282)

Mm-hmm.

Humera Khan (47:28.744)

I'll try harder to do better. So that's what I sort of, mantra I sort of follow. I don't want to beat myself up all the time of what I feel inadequate about, but just come from a position of confidence of what I feel that I actually have understood. thinking that that's not it, but being that there's always more, there's always growth, there's always change.

Rose Aslan (47:55.968)

Yeah, beautiful. And with that, I'm really grateful to you for sharing some of your wisdom, life journey, sharing about your work. Really grateful. People want to find you online to learn about your organization. Where can they go to learn more about you?

Humera Khan (47:59.718)

Thank you.

Humera Khan (48:7.784)

Well, we're very typical small organization where we struggle with the website. I think there is one, but it's not very updated. We have a Facebook page, Unnecessary. I'm on Facebook and Instagram. Yeah, OK. so, yeah, the websites are coming. They'll come.

Rose Aslan (48:23.850)

that will be in the show notes too.

Rose Aslan (48:30.746)

Wonderful. Wonderful. Okay, good luck with that. I know, right? I'd rather social media's, know, pages. Yeah, it's too hard to do it all.

Humera Khan (48:32.064)

you can't change the world and have a website yeah yeah

Rose Aslan (48:43.926)

Well, Wonderva, it's been such a pleasure to speak to you and learn more about your story. Thank you for being here, Amanda.

Humera Khan (48:48.852)

Thank you for inviting me and it's been a very therapeutic session for me and you know to share and upload and thank you for your questions and it's been great getting to know you as well. Thank you.

Rose Aslan (48:52.409)

Oh

Rose Aslan (48:58.964)

Likewise. Okay.