Spoiler Alert, Ladies: Men Want Your Depth and Presence Too with Ginger Kern

Ginger Kern (@mythic.feminine) is a writer, mentor, and guide for women on paths of devotion. She is in service to women returning home to their female nature. Her work supports women in restoring sovereignty and full-range embodiment in service of union & life.

Links:
'The Dip' - 13 audio teachings for your feminine descent

Find Your True Voice - free guided meditation for women

Follow Ginger on IG @mythic.feminine
And on Substack 

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:03

Hey everybody, welcome back. It's good to have you here. I am really grateful to have a chance to have Ginger Kern as the guest on the podcast today. I'm so excited to introduce her to you all and to have you here, Ginger. Welcome. Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

Thank you. Good to good to be back, it almost feels like.

SPEAKER_07 0:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 0:39

Yeah. So you and I met in 2019 in Boulder, Colorado. We were working at a human potential startup. Woo.

unknown 0:52

Woo.

SPEAKER_06 0:53

Woo. Doing doing tech sales together, which is hilarious. This is pre-COVID.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Yeah. It might have even been 2018, to be honest. It was it was a while ago, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:10

Yeah. And um, you know, I was joking with you before we hit the recording button. It's like, in terms of number of hours and calendar days, like we haven't spent that much time together. It's it's it's not nothing, it's something, and it's also not like a crazy amount. But I feel it's like I always feel you around energetically. I feel like we're traversing similar territories and exploring different like I mean, you and I both have a real deep devotional commitment to diving into the mystery of life and exploring what the heck is going on in this thing uh that we call reality.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

That's one way to put it. I would agree. Yeah, I definitely agree with that.

SPEAKER_06 1:55

And so from from where I sit, and you know, help help me help me color this in and flesh it out, but from where I sit, it seems like you've when you and I met in 2019. I experienced you as someone um with quite a lot of access to presents. I mean, you had traveled to like over 40 countries at that point in your life, like not quite, not quite yeah, it was like 25 or 30 at that point, I think.

SPEAKER_04 2:22

25 or yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:27

And just like deeply um, I know you were I have memories of you at that time. I I know how big of a dancer that you were and you still are. Um a real passion for language and food and culture, and it's just I I feel like um it's like it's like uh sometimes we just meet people who are like a schmorgas board of like all the places they've been, all the experiences they've had, people who are real connoisseurs of experience, right? So there's like there's all these cultures that walk with you, and I really felt that from you. Um and then it seems like over the last years you've really deepened into um something that feels much more profound and also a lot simpler in some ways. It's like really deep in embodiment. Um, it feels like a coming down would be the gesture, like a deep, deep, deep downward gesture. Um it feels more potent, it feels more clear, it feels more palpable, it feels more honest. Not that you were being dishonest before, but it just feels more like cut through all the crap and get to what's most essential, just right through the noise to the to the pulse of it all. Um so I want to honor you and appreciate you and celebrate you, you know, as a real. I just put you in the category of like the real ones, you know. Like I know you're a teacher. I know you're a teacher now, I know you've developed quite a following. I know a lot of people work with you, and it's really rare to have people who so deeply walk the path that they invite people into. And my experience of you is you really do that, like you're deeply, deeply um like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna just spit words at you and try and give you concepts of things. I'm gonna share from my own lived experience, and more than any of that, I'm gonna be the teaching through my presence and through my transmission. So that's my experience of you. That's what it's like for me um being around you and watching you. Um, I want to invite you in and help me color it in some more.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

I'd be happy to play some some coloring games with you, little coloring books. Yeah, no paint by numbers here though, probably just like freeform coloring. Love that. Thank you so much, Foris. And yeah, like I said, it's just good, it's good to be back with you. Um, I have a similar experience of sort of like orbiting different fields where there are some really beautiful Venn diagram overlaps with where you've been traveling to, you know, bring in the traveler aspect these past couple of years. And I feel everything that you said very deeply, in particular, what has me sort of like settle backwards and feel very seen and um yeah, just very grounded in myself, to be honest, is uh I I can't teach something that is not something that I'm living. It feels terrible to my body. I'm actually compared to when you and I met, um, I feel like there has been a deepening of just how uh in approval of my own sensitivity I actually am. I'm you know, and I I'm not gonna say any mental labels like highly sensitive person. Like I just don't, I don't identify at that level at all. I just I just feel I feel it's great, you know. So instead of that um that wonderful and like beautiful face of my life where I got to go really wide and like so vast and like everywhere in the world, and you know, all the foods and all the languages and all the cultures and da-da-da-da-da. Um that condensation that you're speaking to feels very true and very real. And I I just I appreciate that I had that experience. I I so loved the the young woman that I was when I went on those adventures, and she's amazing. She's still inside of me. Like I have not exiled her one bit, but like she's resting, you know, she's like resting inside of a larger Russian doll, so to speak. Um yeah, and I appreciate you naming the the downward drop because I feel that I feel that in my body, I feel that in my voice, I feel that in how I like the place that I bring through any share or teaching or whatever, like it's coming from a deeper place within me now, versus before I would say it's probably, you know, it was kind of coming from like heart up if I was lucky, like sometimes head up, you know, if we're really being honest. We all have that phase too. So yeah, it feels good to be in a place of feeling myself and yeah, just like clearing out so much to be able to let things come through me. It feels really good because I'm grateful for it. Um I'm grateful to be here.

SPEAKER_06 7:47

It feels to me like you are responding to something in your work in the world and in what I see you sharing on Instagram. And I I get the feeling every time I see you post anything, to me, it feels like you're in a very deep relationship with something. There's definitely something specific that you're in relationship with, and there's also many things you're in relationship with.

SPEAKER_07 8:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 8:13

Um but I see this infinity loop and I get this co-generative dynamic of a relationship that you're in that's informing and shaping you and and you're shaping it, and together you're you're creating, creating, uh well, I'll just say creating. So I wonder what happens for you here and me, sharing this.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

Yeah, a number of things come through. It's like, yes, that feels true. You know, it's like absolutely. Um, which ironically, like, yes, I I feel somewhat in response to items. Like, I could give you a list of all sorts of things that I'm responding to at a given moment. Um, but I think the bigger thing in the background is I'm just listening. I'm listening for a pulse and I'm trying to translate. So all of those years of learning languages and whatnot, it's like, cool, that was for you know a given purpose and it serves me well. But it's it's like something I do love about my humans, I have a very deep ability to listen. I've just taken that and I've taken it over into the realm of listening to the field or listening to energy or listening to what's in the background, and then responding to either something that's directly there that needs to be brought forth into consciousness, which even recently I did for a client of yours with great impact and results that were very uncomfortable for him, but in a good way, you know. But I that's one aspect is like the listening to that thing that needs to be spoken and then speaking it with consent. Um, and another aspect is more like it's almost like feel sensing for the thing that's off, like the thing that's like so close. I feel it almost like an energetic chiropractic adjustment. Like that there's like a thing that's that's like just slightly off, and if I just put exactly the right energy into exactly the right spot, it just like and then life horse flows again, and like that's actually the thing that I'm in service to in the background is the vitality piece, the the life force life, life, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:41

Yeah, I think that's the simplest way I can put it.

SPEAKER_06 10:49

Yeah, you're you're using the word listening, and when I'm listening to you, I also feel it feels very kinesthetic, like a kinesthetic kind of listening, and I see you moving your body as you're talking about it. So it feels to me like it's a very sensorial, kinesthetic way of finding the vitality and the life force and going, oh, here's the opportunity for a little bit more alignment and flow.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

Absolutely, yeah. And you mentioned the piece about my dance background that has been with me since before I was born. My mother was a professional ballet dancer and performed with me up until she was five months pregnant with me. So I like literally was gestated in an environment of like high movement and like yeah, high vitality, so to speak, right? Like dancers' bodies are just crazy in terms of the energy that flows through them and how it expresses. And I've, you know, with with dance, I think the just the body awareness that has come for me from I honestly don't even know how many years, um, whatever it's been, decades and decades of moving, not just my own body, but you know this about me, I've gravitated much more to partner dance. And what does it do when my body comes into contact with another person's body in purely a platonic context, like truly a context of like we're showing up to move together and to meet each other in the emerging moment that's like literally what partner social dance is. You it's improv. You're not choreographing anything, you're literally, you don't, you maybe have never met that person before ever. You have no idea what their body is capable of or their physiology or anything. So there's this quality of yeah, bodily listening that has been repped thousands and thousands of times in my lived experience of life. And then, of course, with that many repetitions, your body starts to pick up subtleties of like, oh, that pattern means this, that pattern means that. You know, it's like I'm sure bodyworkers have the same experience laying on of hands and touching so many people physically. They can just look at a physical form, which I'm beginning to pick up the sense of, because I've sort of started dabbling in that general terrain. Um, but you know, you can just look and see, like, wow, if only their pelvis were just, you know, untwisted, a half an inch, not even like a quarter of an inch, their whole spine would stack. And then they'd probably not have migraines anymore. It's like you can, it's it's that type of listening, but it's on a more um relational energetic level now, in terms of how I work with women and how I work with couples and their relationships and their their fields interacting. And yeah, like part of that is their communication, but it's obviously not as overt as just the words that they're saying to each other.

SPEAKER_05 13:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 14:02

Well, I just want to welcome in this practice into our podcast in the moment, meaning I know we're two people here talking to each other, but I also want to welcome the field. And you know, if if I'm asking you a question and you're feeling like the field is saying take it this this way, you know, feel free to do that, obviously.

SPEAKER_05 14:23

Um thank you.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

I feel very free.

SPEAKER_06 14:28

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

Yeah. Awesome. Oh, I have a desire because this is being recorded, just for your sake. Is it possible for you to either come closer to the camera or bring the the camera down slightly so there's like more of your chest in frame? Thanks.

SPEAKER_06 14:46

Is that better?

SPEAKER_03 14:48

A little better, yeah. Could even do with like an inch more, or like a half an inch more, or real close.

SPEAKER_06 14:55

How's that close?

SPEAKER_03 14:57

But I actually feel like the the distance that you had it before, and then just like slightly more down so I can see more of your chest is like so helpful. That's perfect. Cool, thank you. Oh, I feel so much better. Like, oh, he's here now. Yay, hello, I can feel you. Great, awesome, sweet. It's exactly like that. It's literally like, I don't know why, I just asked for that. I just I know that there's something coming through me, and and then I feel it bodily on a bodily level. I'm like, oh my gosh, yay, I can feel so much more of him now. And it's like, yay. Then I get all girlish, and the way that expresses is just like, yay, delight. It's like it's such a it's such a sweet thing that I really love about myself. It's very endearing. Yeah, and it's a telltale sign. I'm like, yay.

SPEAKER_08 15:47

Beautiful, beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 15:48

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_06 15:57

Do you want to say more about the work that you do with women and couples?

SPEAKER_03 16:02

I think at some point, yeah, we're gonna kind of weave in and out of it. I feel like more interesting is probably just to track bigger themes that you and I are both sensing. Because again, we have somewhat like overlapping experiences of the broader field, like the broader relational field at this time, at this moment. And I think like through that tunnel or that portal, we're gonna we're gonna talk about a lot of the things that I do with with women and with couples.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:43

When you say that, it it seems like we're it we're living in a time right now where it's like the the systems and the institutions and the technologies and the cultures and the ways of being that have gotten us to hear are going through a refinement process. And like the there's a shaking out of an old layer to be to come even more deeper in alignment with who we are. And there's like a like I'm really big on the word congruence, right? For me, congruence is for me, congruence is like is what I hear you saying and what I feel when you're saying it in alignment. I guess what congruence is for me. And so, you know, we have we have, for example, organizations all over the world that say, like, we're making the world a better place, and then we look at what's actually going on, and then it's like, no, that well, there's there's obviously an opportunity for refinement here. And so I feel like a lot of I feel like a lot of the work you and I are doing is inviting people down into deeper depths and going, whatever we create is infused with the consciousness it's created from. And so there's an opportunity to recreate reality from a deeper depth that's more congruent and more in alignment, and it requires integrity and honesty, clear seeing, uh, trauma work, like a long, long list of things we can get into. Um capacity to set boundaries, uh breathing.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

Very helpful. Breathing, super critical.

SPEAKER_06 18:45

Also, food, very helpful.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Sunshine.

SPEAKER_06 18:48

Sunshine, electrolytes, movement, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

Basics. I mean, we're really, really complicated houseplants, and that's literally, you know, 101 that most people miss. So if you take better care of your house plants than your own body, we're we're we have bigger issues to address first before we talk about soul stream and conscious relating and all of these very spiritual terms. It's like cool, yeah. But did you did you sleep enough?

SPEAKER_06 19:15

Right.

SPEAKER_08 19:16

Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 19:19

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and so there's like a um, I mean, this can be pretty daunting, right? It's like there's many times in my life that I've gone, wow, my my entire personality is a coping mechanism.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Like, yeah, I've hit that point as well. Totally. Yeah, it's very confronting, right? It's like, wow.

SPEAKER_06 19:41

Wow. Wow. And we're and we're you know, we're hitting this point collectively where we're like, wow, we've we've manufactured all of this, like we've created all of this together. And there's an opportunity for some responsibility and accountability and going, okay, what do we want to create together? And I feel like you and I are doing a lot of the capacity building work with people to support just on the most basic level in our own life, in our own house, in our relationships and our businesses. How do we show up and how do we walk through the world?

SPEAKER_03 20:18

Yeah, and also there's a destruction element of that too. It's you know, capacity building or like what do we want to create? And you know, refinement, like all of those words tend to kind of evoke this like upward flourishing, energetic, which is so beautiful and absolutely part of the cycle. And for most people, uh, there's such still a rejection of the going down, the descent part of that process, the deconstructing of things that really have not been working, and the fear of like what does it mean to let go of X, Y, or Z that we've been running on, you know, that has generated the present that we're realizing is maybe not so sweet as we thought it would be. So, yeah, I think a portion of my work, or probably yours as well, is um is also listening to that. It's like what what needs or wants to die, or what needs honestly, what in the body, like to make it very concrete, like what pocket of balled up energy in my body am I avoiding feeling? Where does it live? What does it feel like in my literal physical biological vessel in my body? It's very tactile, it's not heady at all. And can I actually be with it and either like get behind it, hold it, or place loving attention on it, see if it maybe wants to move on its own. Maybe it has something to say to me. Like energy talks. I think most people don't realize that, and so we live our lives sort of skating across the surface of the you know, very, very, very deep lake that is really within us, like deep, deep waters, and uh all the while, all This energy is saying, like, hey, sort of like waving up at the surface, being like, Hey, could you like maybe stop for a second and just like look look at me instead of running around like a chicken with your head cut off out there in the world, like creating stuff that eventually you're gonna have to tear down anyway, because it's not fully true. It's like I've hit that point many times in my life. Had to, you know, look downwards and be like, oh, I was ignoring that. Whoops. And that's there's no shame in it either. I think one of the things that um yeah can tend to hijack people is this fame piece that comes in and says, Oh my god, you should have known better. You should have done it differently. But of course, that's not really possible. Like oftentimes we don't know better when we have to hit our heads against the wall first, and that's okay. Like, I have actually a lot more approval than I even did two, three years ago for myself, for my clients, for just you know, people that I am in more intimate relationship with and my friendships and things like that. It's like, hey, we're we're gonna mess up, it's totally fine. It sounds trite to say it that way, but it's like, why are we trying to build and refine without just like being with what's here in our bodies? You know, it feels so rushed to me. It's not necessary to go that fast. You know, or to ignore things and hope that they'll go away. It's like they don't, they don't do that because they have important messages for us, and that's that's perfect. And we listen when we're ready. That's the other part that I've noticed. I'm never gonna push a person beyond where what they're actually ready to open to. That doesn't do anybody any good. It's it's it's not the point, you know. I I have this relationship now with time, especially with my clients, where there's such spaciousness where before, you know, 10 years ago, I for sure had agendas, you know, like, oh, we need to get this person to or through this transformation, we have to make sure that they, you know, arrive somewhere, otherwise, otherwise, whatever, you know, they didn't get the value, or they'll judge me, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like none of that's real, none of that's true. It's not worth paying attention to because it's just not true. So if I'm just like with my body and present with a person in front of me, then I can be like, hey, okay, like what's actually here, and usually like 9.5 times out of 10, I'm sure you've had this experience, when we actually meet what's here. Either if there's like a ball of energy that's very, very tight, it tends to loosen, and then all of a sudden life force is freed up, vitality, the things that I stand for. Or if it's not freed up, there's at least some like loving attention put on a spot that probably hasn't been yeah, hasn't been tended to in a very long time. But there's space around it. There's nothing we don't need to do anything about it. It's not a problem. That's the other thing. There's no shame and it's really not a problem. I know people think it's a problem, it's not. I rest my case.

SPEAKER_06 25:35

Yeah, it's um what's going on for me as I'm listening to you is is there's uh like the word bypassing, right? And there's a way that um I don't know. There's a lot of consciousness or spiritual or reinventing planetary systems communities that I'm a part of, and I've um what was that last one?

SPEAKER_08 26:00

Reinventing planetary systems, planetary systems, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

Guys, guys, guys, guys. Like, but did you make your bed this morning though? I'm sorry. I have to laugh. It's very yeah, I get it. We all love like the big and the macro, and it's fun to play out here, but anyway, back to what you're saying.

SPEAKER_06 26:23

Yeah, it's it's um there's such there's such uh there's such wisdom in what you're saying about the did you make your bed this morning? Because I've I've I've become a little bit disillusioned with some of these gatherings I've gone to and and hosted myself, right? It's not just that I'm going, I've even convened them. Um and it's like, you know, uh when you have basic trust issues that happen between people in a community and they can't get sorted out around did someone steal my idea or was this person dishonest? And we sort of are like dismissing like when we dismiss that for the sake of whatever, I don't know, quantum physics or like positive psychology, um, we miss the whole boat. Right. It's like we miss the whole the whole thing. And I and for me, that's what you're pointing to with the did you make your bed this morning thing. It's like we can really get lost in these grandiose ideas of what we need to do to make the world a better place. And doing that, we miss the we miss the basic building blocks through which actually discovering and and embodying in connection with each other, we would necessarily manifest a better world to live in.

SPEAKER_05 27:44

Totally. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

Chop wood, carry water. And I'm very bad at that sometimes, self-admittedly, you know, like of course, we all have our moments of popping out of just very sober relating with reality. Yeah, which I don't know. I don't know about you, but I've been I've been completely sober, like totally sober for a while now. And I know that you had had um our our mutual friend and acquaintance, Shaver Bauman, and you know, another very sober man. Um and it's just different, like it's it's no shame for people who are you know on their own journeys, obviously. We're gonna all choose what we choose, but I I feel uh that chop wood carry water piece becomes a lot more interesting when we're just sober with it. You know?

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 28:39

Absolutely. Yeah, I have been sober for quite a while. It's been I don't know how many years without alcohol. Um funny, it's not like I stopped drinking alcohol, if that makes sense. Just quit drinking alcohol.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

Totally. Yeah, no, I understand. I do. It was very similar to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 28:56

Yeah. Yeah. Same thing with drugs and um, I mean, there's all kinds of there's all kinds of stimulants that we use. And in that light, I don't I don't know if I can claim I'm 100% sober. Um, you know, if if we include like how often do I have something to eat when I'm actually eating my emotions, I'm not even eating the food. Like that's a real thing.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:29

But anyway, the sob the capacity to be with what is and the sobriety.

SPEAKER_03 29:33

Like, yeah, yeah, and where that gets hard typically, like what I see with clients is it's like it's very hard to sometimes be with high sensation. Very hard to just be with it. We want to fix it, or we don't want to look at it, we want to pop out of it, we want to destroy it, we want to kill it off or exile it, we want to ignore it, or we want to like off-gas it on someone else, pressure valve release, whatever. And it's like, what if what if we and this is part of the the capacity building that I think you were speaking to earlier, at least this is my view of it. It's like, okay, cool. If there's a tightness in my solar plexus, what's wrong with me just actually being with it? Like, am I able to do that? Or do I feel this like reflexive need that I'm actually not even quite yet conscious of to pull it up out and like spew it out here? Or you know, the other route would be to like stuff it further down. It's like, but those are not the only options on the buffet we've just forgotten, slash like have been trained and trained out of the being with part, and the reality that by and large, unless we're in an actual life-threatening situation, like sensation, high sensation is not gonna kill us. There's no tiger in the room, there's no tiger, like it doesn't exist, it's just a high sensation, like there's heat in my chest, whoop-dee-doo, that my my throat is closed, okay. My cheeks are flushed, or uh my feet are ice cold, or I have trembling voice, or it's just raw sensation. It's like we're so afraid of raw sensation. And so, for you know, everyone, men and women, everyone, like just that alone would change the world and the planetary systems, whatever your your the group is called that you're involved with. It's like that alone would change everything. We don't need to, you know, deal with all these like mental systems approach and like game theory and how are we gonna like pull the puppet strings of humanity? It's like why when we can't even sit with a sensation in our body, guys. Calm on, calm back down to earth, literally, and also the earth of your body. That is usually my call for women, especially, because again, I I work more so with women. Um, and I do believe that the more that we as women are in our bodies with sensation, and not this is I'll distinguish this in a moment, not in a way where we are submitted to the waves of our emotions as like ultimate truth, but when we're really with the sensations of our bodies, like we can inform the entire world, we can calibrate the entire world just through sensation alone. Like, truly, it's uh it's a superpower that women have that that we've forgotten or that we have been taking medications to squash and dim because we've been told that it's too much and we shouldn't feel that way, and we shouldn't be so sensitive because it's not functional for society and it doesn't fit in. And then we build all of these things that require like what are the what's the word for it? Um, like think tanks that require like think tanks to to try and like approach solutions in a collaborative way. It's like guys, but like we missed we missed the exit like 50 stops ago when someone had a sensation in their body that told them that this thing was sort of off and they didn't say anything about it. We don't need another think tank for it. We just need to actually like listen.

SPEAKER_06 33:16

So well, it's like this symbolic the symbolic necktie, right? Like you get you get dressed to go to work and you cut off everything below the neck, like when you put your neck.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Yeah, sure. Which I know you and I have forgotten for many years now.

SPEAKER_06 33:30

We we have said no thank you to that whole experience of life for a while, but and so we so we've gotten uh we've gotten a world of dehydrated and malnourished structures, right? Structures that are not sourced from the the the nectar of life and from the deep feminine, and so there's there's a re recohering happening now.

SPEAKER_03 33:59

And yeah, bit by bit. I mean, you can never keep her down, that's the thing. It's like it's it's just not possible because then you would lose it, like then it would just be death, right? Like there would there would be it would be a barren wasteland without her. And although we see that, it's also very heartening to me that I can also see you know the greening of the wasteland as well. Like the greening is constantly being regenerated. You can't keep her down, you know.

SPEAKER_06 34:31

And I one of the things that I I mean obviously really deeply appreciate about you is that you there's so many people who could take a stance like the one you're taking and just sort of very quickly start getting into storylines about patriarchy and about how men have um fucked everything up and et cetera, et cetera. Um and I I I experience you having a very deep love for men, and also having uh like being able to acknowledge the truth in all those perspectives. It's like there's there's wisdom here for sure, like there's things that we can agree with, but also like come on, ladies, like where's the responsibility that we need to take, and where's our own sovereignty? And um, is it really working for you to sit here and just kind of like blame men for everything that's wrong in the world? Like, how's that going? What other options could you explore? Um, so I notice I feel like safer when I'm around you to have uncomfortable conversations because it feels like there's there's like a genuine intention from where you're coming from, and also like uh I'm not gonna take responsibility for things that you need to take responsibility for, but I am gonna take responsibility for things I need to take responsibility for. And so it feels like there's some reciprocity in being an adult.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

It's shockingly refreshing.

SPEAKER_06 35:57

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_03 36:00

I get it. I really get it. I get it from the perspective of it's so wonderful and refreshing to be around other women who feel that way as well. So it's like I can't, you know, as you might imagine, it's very challenging to be friends with women who hate men still and who blame men for everything. It's like I can't, I I just can't, you know, I can love on them for sure. I mean, but uh yeah, the the refreshing energy that just bubbled through there was just really nice. And thank you for the acknowledgement. I I really receive it and it lands seamlessly. That is precisely how precisely how I feel it. And, you know, um you and I were speaking before we press record about uh a mutual uh peer and acquaintance, dear friend of mine, Katie O'Connor, love her body of work as well. And um, and she and I have spoken for years about this in various ways, just the the reality of how um much of an anomaly it is for us as women to have never been uh physically or sexually violated by a man. We just don't have that in our experience of you guys. And thank God, you know. Um, and that's not to say, by the way, that you know, women who have had that experience don't have the full circle journey of reconciliation with men and total healing. They do. I've seen it happen over and over and over, often in my work, like very personally with my clients, and also through women who carry the same torch, you know. So it's not that it's not possible, it's very possible. And I want anyone listening who's a woman who's like, wow, well, I have had really awful experiences, genuinely awful, traumatic, like terrible fracturing experiences with men. Totally hear that, and reconciliation and complete, complete healing all the way down to the root is 100% possible. I've seen it happen over and over again. I have. But Katie and I, too, you know, the point that you brought through is we we do both come in, and I I feel you know, for for years I felt this way, especially um just how easeful it is for me to create with men. And you know this, like because we worked at that startup together. Um, you know, small-ish team, obviously, but of all of the salespeople that cycled through, I was the one who ended up working directly with the CEO. Why do we think that is? What happened at the next startup that I worked for? Same thing. Why do we think that is? Locally salesperson, individual contributor, not a manager, not a director. You know, why why am I the one that ends up working with the C-level executives? It's like who are who are men, right? All of them, all of my managers in the world world of sales, in that past world. Um, yeah, they're they're all these like fantastic men. And I really can say that genuinely. Now part of that was because I vetted them, you know, like I'm not gonna work with the side or structurally under a man that I don't respect who doesn't share my values. That's my responsibility to vet as a woman. And I see that, you know, in all sorts of contexts being very, very important for women to know what they need and what they will and won't tolerate, versus it being like on you or on you guys to like create perfect conditions for us to be okay. It's like, no, you guys are just gonna be however you're gonna be. Like, you you know, just be who you are, and I will evaluate whether who and how you are is suitable for me. I'm the one doing the evaluating here. Like, maybe you guys think you're evaluating me to bring me onto your team, but like I'm the one actually evaluating because I know that I amplify that energy. I have I when I put my um, you know, in the olden days of of like full-time jobs and stuff, like when I put my mental force behind a man, but in these days, it's like when I put my the force of my womb behind a man, like there's amplification that happens. So I actually am the one that's responsible for selecting who gets that from me, who is in a way worthy, but I I have a tricky relationship with that word, just because most women hear it through the lens of like perfection, you know, versus just like value alignment is more so how I mean worthy. So yeah, I mean I really receive everything you shared, and I I hope that in inside of what I've just shared now, women can hear some doorways where it doesn't have to be that the man is perfect, it doesn't mean that he makes no mistakes, doesn't mean that you know you haven't had as a woman like your own like truly awful experiences with with men, but that you actually hold all of this power. Women, you know, there's so much power. Oh my god. And I just feel like all of this blood pulse in my womb. It's so great. I'm like literal now, so there's like even more blood, obviously, in my literal womb. But ladies are so powerful. Like, come on, like let's go. Anyway, that's where the energy comes alive for me. I'm like, yes. Yeah. How does that land for you then as a as a as a gentleman across the table, so to speak?

SPEAKER_06 41:19

It lands beautifully. There's there's several things that you said that I want to touch in on. One is I have seen I don't I don't know the statistics off the top of my head, but in my own lived experience, uh the number I'm this is really sad to say, but the number of women that I meet who have not been victims of some kind of sexual assault or some kind of real deep violence from men is it's rare, you know. When you're talking about exactly.

SPEAKER_08 41:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:50

And so it's challenging because I've you know, there's there's um there's quite a lot of women that I've met over the last years who've come to me for support with working through really deep traumas that they've had as as clients or as friends. Um and uh you know, part of that process is actually uh for a lot of them, a part of that process is actually acknowledging the moments that they were a victim of something. There's this thing of like, don't victimize yourself. It's like, well, sure, except for when we've truly been a victim.

SPEAKER_03 42:27

Um exactly, like something bad actually genuinely happened and it sucked on like a hardcore level.

SPEAKER_08 42:33

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

That was not okay, that was truly not okay, right? That doesn't mean that we identify ourselves as a victim forevermore, but like that shit happened.

SPEAKER_06 42:43

Exactly, exactly, yeah, exactly, exactly. So that's really important. Um that's one thing that's happening for me. And yeah, you know, I had a call with Katie this week. You introduced us, and um, being around you two, it's it's a healing experience for me, just being around you. I mean, I don't think I mean I love listening to you two talk. I think just being around you two is a gift, but it's like you don't, it's one of those things you don't even have to say anything. It's an it's a cellular nervous system level healing that goes on of just this. What it this is what it's like to be around women with big nervous systems and a lot of capacity and a deep pelvic presence, like deep pelvic bowl presence, and we'll call it big womb energy, big womb energy, yeah, BWE.

SPEAKER_03 43:36

It's a thing, we're making it a thing.

SPEAKER_06 43:38

I love it, I love it. Yeah, and I love you know, Katie and I got off the phone, and she's like, My biggest takeaway being with you is like big men need big women, and I I felt like relief when she said that. It was like finally, like somebody acknowledging that. It's like thank you. And and you know, she and I really got into some distinctions. About the differences between intensity and violence, for example.

SPEAKER_03 44:06

Mm-hmm. She mentioned that. Yeah. Yeah. She mentioned that to me. That's great.

SPEAKER_06 44:10

Love it. Truth can be really intense. It can.

SPEAKER_03 44:14

High sensation.

SPEAKER_06 44:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

High sensation.

SPEAKER_06 44:17

Especially at the beginning. Like when you're first receiving it, it's like the nerve, it's just like, oh, right.

SPEAKER_03 44:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:24

Later in the journey, it's it's can you it's arguably more intense the absence of it. You're like, wait, where did it go?

SPEAKER_03 44:30

Yeah. Totally.

SPEAKER_08 44:32

100 million percent.

SPEAKER_06 44:36

I don't like this sensation. I want the other one back. There's the lightning rod of truth.

SPEAKER_03 44:44

And again, that's where sobriety comes in. It's like, okay, it doesn't have to be intense all the time for us.

SPEAKER_06 44:49

Exactly. Yep, exactly. For sure. Don't need to be a junkie. Um truth junkie. Yeah. Well, let me pause.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

Intensity and violence. No, no, no. I think intensity and violence is actually a really good distinction here. Because you so I want to like double back a second, and then we'll kind of talk about this. So you said, and thank you for this, that you know, it feels you feel or your system feels very like safe, and there's just like a relaxation when you're talking with me or with her or with both of us, that usually is not so present out in the world with women. And you are not the first man to tell me this. So I want to distinguish a couple of things. Maybe you can help me actually. This will be like generative for whoever's listening. I want to distinguish a couple of things that I have seen create that experience from a really genuine and organic place. It's not that I'm like trying to make this a safe space for Forrest to feel like a man. God, vomit, stop. No. Again, like the body will just like revolt against that. One, you know, one or the other. Um, the man's uh or the woman's body. Like somebody's body is gonna revolt against that because it's just not natural. Um, but what I want to distinguish is like, first of all, I don't need you to hold me in order to be okay. I uh see you. He's like already like, oh my god. See, like any ladies listening, I hope you're watching the video because you just made this massive gesture of like burdenless release. So if you're on audio only, make sure you pull up the video. Um there's like a lot coming through the the body language here. Um yeah, there's there, like I don't need you to hold a frame specifically to like make sure that everything is perfect and all the conditions are there so that I can flourish in my feminine writings.

SPEAKER_06 46:55

This is like, oh my god, Ginger, this is the fucking David Data posturing of masculinity, bullshit, like just bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. Totally bullshit.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Totally.

SPEAKER_06 47:09

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself. Men are gonna hold so women can feel safe. It's just like nope.

SPEAKER_03 47:20

Right, like so reductive and also so infantilizing.

SPEAKER_06 47:27

Like you're women are children who cannot take care of themselves, and it's my job to coddle you with old pacifier. Is that not the message? It's not like give me a uh like sometimes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 47:40

And I I I take no issue with David Data himself. I actually think, like, generally speaking, the the the little I've dabbled in his teachings, like first, second, third stage relating type thing, you know, like that lands for me. A lot of that does land. So no shade. Like he's he's a brilliant teacher in his own right.

SPEAKER_06 47:56

Same. I'm not thinking good about him. I'm just saying what I experienced in a lot of people who come out of reading way of superior man type is these kinds of orientations.

SPEAKER_03 48:06

Right. And so we can see the dilution of the teaching, second degree, third degree, hundredth degree. There's just dilution, right? Because that the further away that you go from the original channel, there is dilution. And we're not talking about like the good kind of homeopathic dilution, where it's like you only need one one thousandth of a part to like affect the vessel. Um, it's like, okay, we gotta go back to like source experience, which is embodied ultimately, like a channel itself. It's gotta be super clear for the thing to land in it, let alone to be able to translate it out to into a book or into teachings. But then when people kind of glom on and place their mental layers on top of the teachings, that's where it gets wonky. So, to your point, yeah, I don't need you or any man to cobble me. Now, does that mean that, you know, I am never in need of like loving, tender presence, holding, cuddles, affection? Of course not. Oh my god. Like, yeah, these things are not mutually exclusive at all. But the energetic in the background is like I'm not dependent on you to make my environment perfect in order for me to open because I'm actually responsible for my own opening. It's my opening, it's in my body. And part of that is gonna be very, you know, biologically subconscious or um like uh instinctual, you know, like obviously there's an element of just, you know, on the on the sexual front, there's an element of sexual opening that is instinctive. It's not something that someone can fully, you know, create the perfect conditions for, it just like happens and how beautiful that is. But then in life, in relationship, in friendship, you know, or in just general male-female coworker relating, it's like, oh my god, if the men are walking on eggshells because the women have in their operating system that they can only be safe if the man creates perfect conditions for them, it's this really awful uh Chinese finger trap, really, where there's just a constriction that I feel immediately in my body. This is that level of sensitivity where I'm just like, no, no, get it away, destroy it, cast it into the fires.

SPEAKER_06 50:25

Well, and even I'm gonna take it so far I'm gonna weaponize it or demand demand it, right? Like, I'm going to demand that you make me feel seen. I'm gonna demand you make you hold me, I'm gonna demand that you understand me, I'm gonna demand like it's like whoa.

SPEAKER_03 50:41

Completely so so back to distinguishing the the things that the presence of which would actually have a man feel like wow, I'm so relaxed around this woman. Like she doesn't need she doesn't need me to like coddle her. It's like there's sovereignty that's acknowledged both internally, and I acknowledge that you are not responsible for my needs. You're a sovereign being, you have your own stuff going on that's beautiful. I I don't need you to see me 100% of the time, all the time. In fact, I recognize that you will fail at seeing me. You will point blank when I go into relating with men on any level, there's gonna be an element of wow, they can't see me. I just acknowledge it from the get-go. And it's okay, it's not anybody's fault. It doesn't mean you know, it doesn't mean that you're less than or that I am somehow not safe because you can't fully see me. It's like just you know, we all fail. It's okay. Have a little humanity. I I don't need you to be perfect. I really don't. Like, you know. So and I think the other thing, this is maybe a smaller piece with with you and I, but perhaps it's also there. Um, that has you feel relaxed and safe around me is I also don't need your validation. Like I don't need your validation. And I think a lot of women need the validation.

SPEAKER_06 52:16

Well, there's this exchange. I have gone I have gone through a process of in my relationship inside myself, it's like the this agreement had happened, you know. The culture I grew up in, I was I was raised in the southeast United States, right? There's a very large cultural context of the woman takes her safety and hands it over to the man and says, You're gonna hold this. Take care of it.

SPEAKER_03 52:46

You can kind of feel a little bit of the sweetness in that though. And then there's an element that's biologically so rightful that I also ascribe or subscribe to, you know, like it just yeah, there is an element of truth there, especially in a marriage, for instance. You know.

SPEAKER_06 53:01

Right. It's like uh it's not wrong and it's not functional in so many contexts that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 53:12

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're talking about outsourcing, essentially. It's like if I outsource all of my safety to you, oh man, right, and then I expect you also to be perfect, that is a recipe for oof, not success.

SPEAKER_06 53:28

Yeah, yeah, and it was, you know, the the man, the man was the leader that was really big in my cultural upbringing. Um and I think the again, it's one of the things that I appreciate uh being around you is I feel like when I'm around you, there's this thing that's happening, which is like, at least this is what goes on in me, which is like, okay, ladies, even while we were in that storyline, we were still playing a leadership role in creating that kind of dynamic.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

Like anymore.

SPEAKER_06 54:03

I think I lost you in the I'm checking with you in real time because I don't want to just paint things on you.

SPEAKER_03 54:09

No, no, please. You're good.

SPEAKER_06 54:10

Yeah, it's like it's like an awareness of um we're all leading all the time. Even if we're leading by creating a story that I'm not the leader and this other person's the leader and I have no leadership capacity, that's the form of leadership I'm expressing right now.

SPEAKER_03 54:33

Yeah, totally. Yeah, really well, really well said. Really well said. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 54:38

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:43

I'm curious how much of you if you know uh of the people who listen to your podcast. Are are most of them men or women, or do you have anything?

SPEAKER_06 54:52

Almost right down the middle. It's almost 50-50.

SPEAKER_03 54:54

Oh, great. Yeah, fantastic. Well, I hope that there's some something for everyone then in this conversation. Yeah. Yeah, and to take it uh towards that full send um place that you know you had mentioned kind of prior to recording. I feel very passionate, and I will always feel this way. Um speaking of, you know, big men need big women. I will be very passionate forevermore about helping women actually inhabit the size of their systems. Both such that they can not only be a match for a catalyst or like a true counterpart to big men with big systems. But also, and this is like very cutting edge, like really just coming through in the last decade or so, it's like I'm not at the point of being a mother, but such that women with big systems can actually mother young boys who have massive systems and not emasculate young boys and actually safeguard their souls as they are young and as they are like flowering, you know. I I know that's like a very feminine word to use, but I think all children have to have this innocence that just like flowers when the conditions are like wow, I really can meet all of this bundle of energy, you know. So often, like young boys, teenagers as well, obviously. Like you guys are told, wow, there's way too much, you gotta stop doing that, sit still, pipe down, go sit in the corner, you're a bad boy. I know like lobster people have kinks about that, you know, when they're adults. Like, okay, but the point is, it's like we've gotta safeguard something that's like very innocent from the time that they're very young, like these like bundles of energy and um these souls that are newly incarnated into these tiny little bodies with so much energy, big, big systems and like big fields, but their moms can't handle it. Yeah, it's like that's not fair. So that's like a probably a downstream. I can kind of feel that coming down the pipeline in terms of a future body of work when I can do that in an embodied way, but to bring it back to what I can do right now in an embodied way, it's like, all right, ladies. So for those of you who desire to really, you know, have that embodied powerful counterpart type of relationship with a man who is a match for your breadth and your range, your feminine range is a word that a lot of people use in in my field. Like embody your feminine range. It's like, yes, but ultimately women are afraid to do that because they're afraid to become too big for like the average man, and they feel scarcity come in and hijack their own process of actually opening to the life force that is there in their bodies. Because it's like, oh no, if I do that, I already feel too much. There's no way that any man will ever be able to meet me, and I will be alone and destitute forevermore. It's like gets very uh primal very quickly. But I happen to know that there are tons, tons of men with very large systems in the world that are hungry and you know, desperate in a in a in a good way, not like a weird needy way, but like really, you know, hungry for women who have big systems. So I happen to be the one who sees all of those men because they feel safe around me. Those men make themselves invisible to women who are not safe. They just won't open up, right? Nodding. You keep yourself at a distance. Am I wrong? It's like, oh, you just identify she can't eat me.

SPEAKER_06 58:41

So I will just it's like you don't even, it's for well, I guess where I'm at is like I just don't even go there. Like, I'm just like this is not it's not even worth going for tea, like kind of thing. Like it's like we're not even gonna take step one. Like there's an it's a non-starter with all the love in the world, but it's just a non-starter. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:59

Exactly. Exactly. And so for the women who are sort of on the cusp of, you know, they've already usually my clients have already moved through the like the hatred of men part. There, I don't work with women who still hate men. They have to pass through that initiation on their own. They can absolutely still have some wonky spots around men, that's not a problem. But there's no outright hatred of men in my spaces, it doesn't work. I don't deal with that part of the journey. It's not my torch to carry. So they come to me and they're like, okay, I love men, or I actually really have a deep respect. I have found a deep respect and an admiration for men. And I desire to create with them. And then there's usually all sorts of like still bits of armor and and wonky pieces in the way for them to just in a very natural embodied way show up in the world in a way where they could see a man with a large system, like recognize him, and also still feel very safe with themselves. And it's that, I think it's exactly what you're saying, is that that embodied sense of like, oh, I'm actually just I'm here with myself. I don't need you to coddle me, caretake me, create perfect conditions for me. That then has these men with massive systems reveal themselves because all of a sudden they feel like, oh, I can come out of the woodwork. I am actually safe to be in the presence of this woman. Now we can play. No longer is it a non-starter. It's like, oh, there's actually space for me here. She can actually receive my bigness. I'm getting like goosebumps on my thighs. Yay. Um, she can receive my bigness and we can create together. Maybe, right? And then the exploration begins and then like the real sort of like, hmm, like let's see, let's dance, let's like explore how and in what ways can we create together. But women have to get to that point of like internalized safety with themselves first, you know, and that's a big, big part of my work with women actually. Like rootedness, groundedness, emotional sobriety, self-holding, like genuine ability to be with the sensations over here with ourselves, without weaponizing them against you guys, without making it fully that it's your fault. Which sometimes it kind of like, you know, there's there's there are instances, but the point is for overall for the system to be yeah, for a woman's system to be able to just be in the presence of a man who has a big system.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:33

Oh, there's so many brilliant like threads we can pull on here. Um one thing I want to name for the guys listening. One of the things that I've really uh learned, I'm not sure if that's the word, become aware of is uh I I spent uh years dating women. I didn't feel like I could like it was like I was dating women and trying to point out the things that we're talking about right now to them. And so I just want to name Yeah, exactly. I just want to name if you're listening to this as a man, like one of the things I would have done, let's say five years ago, is I would have listened to this conversation with me and Ginger, and then I would have like been like, all right, maybe I could just play this for the girl I'm dating and point out all the things so she can see them, and then she'll want to show up differently. And I'm just want to name like that didn't work ever, ever. Like it didn't it might have made like micro improvements, but it missed the boat, which is like it missed the boat, which is just way bigger than um trying to do that. And it was it was um you know, that was me uh feeding a dynamic that wasn't that wasn't the thing. Like that was again, it was it was like ultimately at the end of the day, what I need to do is disengage and go, I I actually started something I shouldn't have even started. I should I needed to come back to the non-starter piece, complete dissolution and release and letting go, and going, I didn't do a good enough job in my again. I want to be really careful with the language I'm using. I hope you can hear me well, but I want to do a better job in my vetting process, my discernment process. Um because when I'm around you and Katie, I feel like I can talk to y'all about anything. I my deepest insecurities come out around y'all. I'm just like, here's the things I struggle with, here's the places I don't feel good enough. It's like I feel, and here's my big visions for what I'm working on, and it doesn't even feel that big.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:33

And yeah, and you know that both of us would be like, okay, well, that's it. Like, what about this? What about that?

SPEAKER_06 1:03:38

You know, like when I talk about me five years ago, you would have heard me five years ago say, All I want to do is tell the woman I'm with the big vision I have, and go, Is that is that all you got, Forrest? Like, come on, honey. Like, like it's evoking more, like just so instead of because I have that wound that you pointed to. Like when I was a kid, my mom would always say, like, Forrest, you're too much. You're stressing me out. That was a big thing. Like, you're stressing me out, you're stressing me out.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:07

I'm sorry, that sucks.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:09

And it's like, you know, I you know, I get older and I realize, okay, my vitality and aliveness was triggering my mom's repressed and dormant vitality and aliveness. Like, I can get that, but it doesn't, even that seeing doesn't solve, like it's a way deeper pain to feel and go, can I actually give myself permission now to be fully received, to not to not self-dampen, to not withhold. Because we become these guys who throw in the towel, right? Like we become impotent in a way. I've experienced it. I've experienced it. It's like I'm just like, if this is if this is it, I'd rather not. I'll just be single. I'll sit in my house. And it's a it's a it's a coping mechanism. It's a it's a coping mechanism.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:58

It's not true. It's not true. The truth of your system is what's true.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:02

It's not world to be like it's it's cope.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:07

But I have to back and forth because I've been there. I've been there.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:10

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:11

I still am sometimes. I'll be like, uh totally fair.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:16

Totally fair. But I know it's and that's part of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:24

So good. Yeah, and I hope that you know the gentleman listening can can hear and feel both, you know, your your wrestling, your tussling with the reality of your past, of like the fracture with women or the fracture with the feminine. It's a very different experience for you guys. It's more like uh it's less not not always, I know that there are exceptions, but it's less of like the physical violation, more so like the emotional or spiritual violation, by and large. Obviously, there are exceptions, and those are equally as awful as what happens to women often. But You know, with all of that said, it's like regardless of where the fractures come in, the point is not to just crumble away from them and go into entropy. Although that's very tempting. And I understand people choose that route. And you know what? I'm a I'm a believer in multiple lifetimes, so I really believe that people get multiple, multiple opportunities. Um but I also feel that, you know, for those of the the listeners who are able to hear you and able to hear me, it's like, look, you know, we have our days. We all have our days of fuck this. Like, this is so not it, you know, or cope, and I'm just gonna go in my shell or whatever it is. That's fine. That's also part of being a human. Then we get down on ourselves for like having to do that sometimes. I don't think that's necessary either. Just let yourself be in the down if you're having a down, like have a proper down, let it be like full of nourishing soil, and like just you know, to bring in Traver's episode with you, like the nourishing dark. Like, go go into the cave. Like, it's okay, like the dark will probably swallow you. Yep, it happens. Like you can come out of the cave, there's another side, like yeah, reconciling with um the the that aspect of the feminine is going into the dark, it is touching those spots that are that feel hopeless or like a pit of despair, or like you know, when you're down there you can't climb out. I understand that, like I have those spots and locations in myself as well, but it's like we don't gain any level of like self-love or mastery or anything when we avoid it and hide in our turtle shells, or take uh a substitute like uh the red pill approach to life, for example, you know, or M G T O W. Men go their own way.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:01

It's it's when you're talking, Ginger, it puts me in contact with the sometimes I can feel really deeply heartbroken looking at the world, and you know, I do this in my own way, so I know there's projection happening here, but also perception. What I see is like I mean, the number of guys that I know that are like trying to be this thing to get love. It's like I'm gonna get amassed a certain amount of money and this certain thing. It's like there's nothing wrong with any of this stuff. Like, it's great to like want to provide a house and be able to pay for things and have a nice like that's beautiful, totally. And I I know from my own experience, it's like I wanna, I wanna, I wanna play the role, I want to do those things. I also want to be loved for who I really am. I don't want to be yes, I don't want to be loved for this thingamajig that I do, this like posturing. Um, and on the other side, women too. Like, women talk to me all the time about what they really want in relationship with people. And it's like so many of us are trying to be this thing to get love or to be good enough for a connection. And I feel like your body of work is like it's like it necessarily requires us. I mean, is this true? Like, I'm asking, it necessarily requires us to even just drop the connection for a moment and be like, for a moment, this needs to be between you and you, you and God, you and your own soul. And it's like not for the purpose of anything besides your own union with that, like all caps of that, and then from there, let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:28

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:31

I don't know, like your Jersey Italian like fuckboy came out. Eh, let's see what happens. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:37

So funny, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:38

No, that's it though, right? Because it's like I if I can't just like have my own relationship to myself, if I if I like there's a healthy level of selfishness here that we need. I'm really not a non-dual person in the sense like I have an awareness of the non-dual. I can, you know, have a felt experience of it. And I also acknowledge I'm in this very dual plane of reality. Like there's a reality that I cut my thumb yesterday cooking a stew. Like there's a there's a there's a there's objective reality where it's like I bleed if I'm cut, you know, I am not one with the knife. Like, guys, so we can be this like, you know, in in non-dual awareness and have all the the the consciousness in the world, or maybe the lack thereof and be striving for love through, sorry, lack thereof and striving for love through, you know, works, through objects, status, money, hierarchy, da-da-da. Doesn't matter which way you slice it or dice it, you still need a relationship with yourself. You still need a relationship with creator or higher power or something that is backing you, that is beyond you, because otherwise you're just gonna be a bit fucked, to be honest. I don't know. For me, atheists are non-starters usually, but uh better than like agnostics in the sense that they actually believe something, they just believe in the not that, but still, it's a non-starter for me. Because it's like, okay, what really? You have no acknowledgement of the mystery? There's no there's nothing, like there's really nothing. You sure about that? Like, have you felt anything lately? Have you watched any animal in nature lately? Like, have you do you orgasm? Like, does that happen for your body? Anyway, I get a bit saucy at some point in every podcast. This is where the sauce comes out.

SPEAKER_08 1:11:32

So man.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:38

Yeah. I feel very uh passionate though about the weaving, the reweaving of men and women that will always be part of what I stand for, in addition to vitality. I just happen to believe that vitality with self, to your point, there's that healthy selfishness that has to come first. It has to. Otherwise, we will outsource and we will be dependent on you know, you to make me feel safe, or him to not, you know, say that word or that phrase, or like, you know, for her to not look at him in that certain way or with that certain tone. It's like, why are we walking on eggshells with each other all the time? It's not necessary. So yeah, I hope that people can hear that. And I hope that my cut heels soon, because it was definitely a deep when I was sharpening the knife when I was making this stew. It just like slipped and like but no stitches needed. So wrapped it up nice and tight and kept my hand in the air for a while there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:46

Well, and it gets you what you're what you're sharing, Ginger, it like connects me with this movie scene where like you know, the marriage is falling apart in their 50s, and the guy's like, what the heck? I did all everything I've done, I've done for you. And I'm imagining the woman being like, Well, what the fuck? Like, why didn't she do any of it for you? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:05

Like Yeah, and that can happen way earlier. Like, I have uh a friend who runs a very like large uh business in this, you know, marriage-saving world, so to speak. Um, you know, couples who are on the brink of divorce, which is not usually my it's it's just not the torch that I hold, but it's the one that he and his wife hold very, very beautifully. Um, Sovereign Man, you can look him up if you want to. He's great, he's in Austin. Um, and it's like this is happening younger and younger. It's not men in their 50s, it's like men in their early 30s sometimes, you know, and or or vice versa, you know. The the women are also saying, like, why have I sacrificed so much? It's like, well, who was the one doing the sacrificing? From what posture were we sacrificing? I don't believe in compromise. That is a very radical statement. I have to drop in Ayn Rand and Objectivism and Atlas Shrugged as a book recommendation. It's very long, and the first part can be a bit tedious, but I promise, especially for you, Forrest, you can definitely receive it. And there's some fun, like there's some fun energetics.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:13

Come on, come on. I've read that.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:14

Oh, you've read it! Oh great, fantastic. I don't know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:19

You know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:22

Yeah, the money speech, the money speech alone will change your life. Like, I'm so serious. But yeah, there's that level of like valuing what we value. That is where we derive self-esteem. And if we live what we value, we experience higher degrees of self-esteem. We just do. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not egoic or it's egoic in a good way, and then what we get to do from that place is we actually get to create what we value and exact our will on the world, not from a heady place, but from this indwelling spirit that she does talk about, actually. You know, I think people kind of hate on her because it's like there's no emotion, she's this like heartless, you know, refugee from Soviet Russia. Like, she doesn't feel it's like, well, common critique. I don't feel I find I find her very fealable. I find her works very feelable personally. So yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:17

Yeah, it's like is like is or is what you're saying that there's an absence of drama, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:24

Possibly. No, that's not to comment. Sorry, say again.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:28

When people are like, I don't feel anything, it's like you mean there's not a big drama thing going on here, like it's uh there's a little it's a little bit more sober, perhaps, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:36

Like, yeah, dialed. Yeah, really dialed of like cause and effect. This makes that happen, this leads to that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:47

Well, and and we're, you know, we're it's it's like I can't not name that we grow up in an environment where there are move, there are rom coms, for example, and it's like this big chemical addiction cycle thing of rupture and repair. And of course, it's all about what happens before, it's all about the coming together process, and then it ends right at the moment that they come together. Like it's not actually about the relationship, it's about the the turmoil, quite frankly, beforehand. And so it's like we don't have a lot of movies you can sit down and watch about healthy relationships, it's just not part of the culture. So we're we're used to these. It's we've we unconsciously normalize addictive, really intense neurochemical secretion patterns as romance. Like that's the thing that we're subconsciously wanting to manifest because it's what we've been conditioned with.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:43

Yeah, and also for a time it feels really good. Both you and I, I'm sure, have been there. It's like, wow, that felt really good. Until it doesn't, of course. You know, there's always a drop.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:54

Yeah, it's like you can get drunk and then you have a hangover.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:57

Exactly. Precisely, yeah. It's another substance, just brain drugs.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:02

Yeah, just brain drugs, exactly. Yeah, so that's the when you say sobriety, like that's the level of sobriety that we're talking about here. We're even talking about beyond chemical, we're talking about neurochemical and like our behaviors secreting ourselves in pat in in addiction patterns.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:21

Yeah, yeah, that's a big, big component for yeah, most of the women that I work with on some level.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:28

And of course, you know, how could it not be? Because as you said, we grow up in a culture that venerates those types of experiences and and you know, labels those peak highs as true love when it's like, I don't know, like it might be, but it also might not be. It might just be a chemical high. So you know what happens after that that peak and how is it integrated? And I think to your point, we have very, very, very few role models who can speak at an embodied level to the dissolution of that illusion. And to be quite frank, I I sort of shared with you before we hit record, I don't often share like personal anecdotes of my own relationship because there's just like a level of you know, private sphere, public sphere. But I will say that there was a very recent level of dissolution of an illusion or something that I like a past, a past version of my relationship that I finally came to terms with the fact that I was clinging on to something that didn't exist anymore. And there was like a graspy and a grabbiness that was coming through so strongly in my system, and it was very repellent to him, rightly so. This grasping and grabbing should be repellent. Um, but it was subtle, and I know a lot of women are very overt with it, but for me it was very subtle and yet pervasive. Like, of course, it was felt, and uh finally, like I'm so grateful that this particular, you know, unwinding finally happened through my body. Like I really hit this this this point of uh the the graspy and grabby thing that was protecting fell away, and I actually got to be in contact with the grief behind it that I was grieving this prior version of our relationship, which was so magical, so blissful. I mean, like two plus years of honeymoon phase and fairly grounded too, not just chemical highs. I mean like bliss. It was the time in our life too, you know, his the level of responsibilities he did or didn't have, and vice versa. Tons of travel, lots of novelty, da da da. And it's like that phase of our relationship is over. And part of me, like for the last year prior to this dissolution, had been clinging on to the past and hoping and hoping and hoping that it would like go back to the way that it was, versus actually like drop the grab bit that like wants that past version that like made me feel so good, and like actually contact the grief of wow, that was a deep, it's a deep loss, actually. You know, such a sweet version of both of ourselves that has had to evolve, you know, like that version of me doesn't exist anymore, and that version of him doesn't fully exist anymore. Like, of course, we all kind of retain parts and elements, but then I don't know, then I actually got to have a proper grieving process, and lo and behold, when I was actually with the grief, um things opened up again and just yeah, felt so much more free and so much clearer, and the energy between us just you know, totally totally like opened up because I was relating to reality once again, finally, was like relating with him as he is now in reality versus relating to a past version and wishing that he would go backwards in time, which is not possible. That's fantasy. So yeah. Embodied relating versus honeymoon is the best, you just say like this all the time. It's like, no, you're gonna die, you're gonna evolve, your person's gonna die and evolve. You know, much older and wiser people than I have said this. It's like you you've gotta be able to attend the death of a thousand funerals to be with the person that you truly love. That's true love. True love is not the chemical high that has you go to Greece and get engaged within three months. Like that may well also be true. So no shade on going to it's great, please. Like, have your kicks. But like, you know, like there's there's more. Like you're gonna have to die at some point. So just FYI.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:53

What else?

SPEAKER_06 1:22:04

Honestly, Ginger, what's happening for me in this moment is I'm just like I'm just like really, really, really single right now, and I'm hoping that one of the amazing women in your communities is like a good matchmaking gods have been called upon.

SPEAKER_08 1:22:24

Let's be honest here. Let's get real.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:27

I love it. I mean, they're gonna listen to this. So so let's do a little like playful exploration of Forest's desires if you're open to it.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:39

Yeah, this this is gonna be uncomfortable. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:42

Perfect, but it'll be fun. It's like the fun comfortable. That's a really cringe word that I just made it up.

SPEAKER_08 1:22:48

Fun comfortable. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:50

Fun comfortable, so cringe, so so weird. Uh okay, so yeah, what do you want? What are you looking for? Like, and to to be very sober about it, it's like, what do you even feel like you're ready to receive? And then we can get into like specifics too. Don't skip any part of the process because if you if you feel like you're in a particular phase that society deems unacceptable, then like I would say just be with the reality of that phase and don't skip to like I want a wife and kids, and it's gonna be perfect. You know, like just be with reality. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:27

Yeah, it makes me I I I won't say the things that Katie said on the call that I have with her this week, but it makes me laugh thinking of some of the things that she said.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:34

Um I bet.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:43

I could speak about I could speak about physical things like um Okay. I I mean you know this because you've obviously we've spent tons of time together in person, but for anybody who's listening, I'm six foot four, I weigh 240 pounds, I'm a large man.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:59

Um and I like This is so funny being you say that it's so funny. I mean, you have you definitely take up space. You you're not uh you don't really fit well in like an economy seat, I would say. I would figure it out. Yeah, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:16

The cheeky side of me is like I fly first class.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:18

Um I heard that, I heard that. I heard I didn't want to say that I was gonna let you say that. Yeah, that's the listening quality. I'm like, I know what he's thinking. Let's go. Okay, what else?

SPEAKER_06 1:24:30

Um, yeah, so I I like um I like bigger women. Um, I like women with big hips.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:40

Um let's just take a moment because there's a lot of ladies out there. You know, I I've been on my own fitness journey, but like let's just take a moment. There's a lot in the culture that says like that's too much. Big hips are too much.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:57

And you're saying, like, no, I actually want that. I like that. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:02

Yeah, I mean, I I realize I might be scaring everybody off here, but like when I was born, I was 11 pounds and 24 inches. So like I'm like, Oh, you're sweet mom. Where are we gonna put that kid? Right? Like, I'm like, I'm aware.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:18

I'm like oh my god. Everybody needs to be listening to this. This is great. So you definitely want kids, and therefore you have like primal biological, very normal male drive to select a mate that has some childbearing hips. I get it, that's great. We love it.

SPEAKER_08 1:25:36

Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:38

Um that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:40

Yeah. I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to put language to this, Ginger, but there's there's um there's a feeling like when you ask me what I want, I immediately get into this feeling. And it's like in the moment right now, I just feel so peaceful, like everything just feels okay. And it's like, I just wanna, I wanna like I know that life has its ebbs and flows. I know, I know all of that. I'm not trying to like just be like it can only be this all the time, but I just want to have this baseline ground of like everything's okay, it's free-flowing, vibrant information, like just the total sense of like it's all taking care of itself, and we get to delight in that together. Um I feel like she's my best friend in the whole world. Like, we just like like cut up, cut up, cut up, laughing. Like, I love to laugh. And like ridiculous laugh. Like, I mean like just lose it. I love to laugh like like out of control. Um I want to feel like um or let me say it like this like it feels like I can relax into her, like I'm I'm obviously able to hold her, I know that, but I'm also able to run her holding and be like, if I'm feeling if I'm feeling off or flustered or dysregulated or something, like I can find I can find myself again, I can find my come from again just being around her, like she doesn't have to fucking coach me or give me therapy or something, but it's like I just want to sit next to you and soak you up so I can find home base again. Like just be here with me for 10 minutes so I can just receive your Wi-Fi router of transmission of of the wellspring. And like and I'll just soak it up and and and be back online again, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:50

Um, pause for just a second. So I want the ladies listening, you know, this is like a little bit of coachy, coachy coachiness. Sorry about that, but it's like that request. Is like one of the top ones that I hear from men with big systems. And also just men in general, like that sense of desire for peace. But not and being able to refind themselves, to remember themselves, to remember their essence just by being in her presence. She doesn't have to coach, therapize, uh consult for him or really do much at all. Just literally the being in the same space.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:29

Please don't do that actually. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:31

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So it's important for women to know that because very, very often uh there's a the it's kind of like a couple types of fractals of women in various parts of the journey, but a particular type that tends to be in my spaces is like, okay, what can I do to attract this man? What can I do to like be a match for this man? Okay, like how can I how can I actively amplify him? There's like a lot of force behind it. And uh, you know, they're very self-aware often, and da-da-da. They maybe have been in these worlds of healing professions and whatnot. But what you what I hear you saying is it's so much less about the doing. They're really not much involved at all. It's just the presence itself, the Wi-Fi, how did you say the Wi-Fi transmission of the wellspring? So good. Love that. Okay, please continue.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:21

Well, it's like it's like I know you know this, Ginger. I know you know this. And from my I have seen like there are women that I know, a lot of them in the healing space, like you're talking about, they're somatic practitioners or coaches or something, and they're constantly constantly in this thing, like, what do I need to do? And how do I manifest and blah blah blah? And I'm like, you always seem to miss it, but when you drop into your pelvis and you're in that like oracular consciousness, it's like I want to pick up the phone and call people and sell your program for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:58

Thank you for your service.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:00

Just like sit there, and it's like the the the pupils change, like every the whole room changes. It's it's often it's like everything shifts, and it's it's like I wish more women could trust in that just settling into the pelvis and being like, I'm just gonna watch. I'm gonna watch it all take care of itself because that's the greatest gift you can possibly offer. Um, bar none. Like it's just like on it's just like the most beautiful thing in the world, honestly.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:50

That that non-doing everything that you're saying is uh essentially an embodied advertisement for a a a deeper program that I do with women, which is literally about precisely what you just described. It's like, yeah, that's the most beautiful and valuable thing in the world.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:16

Well, if you wanna if you want to plug it, feel free now or later. But I just wanna you know I endorse your work and I want people to know about it. If you want them to know that, I don't know how many membranes of Oh, no, that's fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:29

Yeah, there are definitely some membranes to pass through, but you know, I trust people will find me when they are ready and when they need to. And um, yeah, we could kind of do the rundown later. It doesn't need to be now. Yeah. So what else?

SPEAKER_06 1:31:45

I know this is so silly, but I think it points to something deeper, which is like um I'm really big into health and fitness and things, and like I want to be able to run and play sports together and other things, but I also want to be able to like eat a pint of ice cream together.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:01

Like, uh, no lactose intolerant women. Sorry. Just kidding. I'm sure there are lovely flavors of you know coconut milk-based ice cream.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:13

Yeah, I just don't want to be in the rigidities of well-being, is is what I'm saying. Like, those can be helpful at some point, but really I just want to like yeah, I want to have like a free-flowing, vibrant existence. And um obviously, like, let's be real, lots of like dancing and love making and um like cooking, sensual things. Uh, I'm you know, I'm a body worker, I'm a big touch person, so like physical touch, uh, that's a whole love language for me. Um I feel like um, you know, if I dare to ask for what I really want, it's like I want to have a I I I pause to use the word purpose partner because purpose can get so intellectual and heady. So it's it's not wrong, it's not wrong, but I want to point to something deeper than that, which is like what I'm really interested in is we let it we're letting go of all the ways that we posture and position position ourselves and try to be something, and then you just can't help be what you are at the end of the day. And so it's like what we are when we stop trying to pretend to be things, just gets along like a symphony. It's just like this is like a we can't not be madly in love, we can't not be having fun, we can't not be just enjoying one moment after the next, whether it's you know, I love to play the guitar and I want to learn how to play the piano better. So whether it's like singing or cooking or raising children or building a business or whatever, it's like just being able to really enjoy a rich and vibrant life together. That's what I want.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:52

Yeah, beautiful, very pure desires. I think a lot of people feel the same and are maybe a little less courageous and asking for what they want. Asking for what they desire.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:02

It's so fun. I feel like a good old Christian boy these days. I'm like, I don't drink alcohol and I just want like a Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:11

Well, yes, and like you know, I think I I I think you have a bit more depth and um range, let's just say.

SPEAKER_08 1:34:22

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:26

Yeah, and one of the things um it's so interesting that this example comes up for me, but it's like gosh, I get shaky when I go to talk about this. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:40

You want to just slow it down for a sec? This is like a great example for people listening of like, oh, there's some sensation. We don't need to rush past it. We can just actually feel what's there. That's crazy. It's allowed. There's no tiger, it's just sensation. Jakey sensation. Sensation.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:09

I'm I'm really big into honesty and truth telling and being honest, like honest and forthcoming, and like whatever the opposite of withholding is, disclosing, I guess you could say. So there's, you know, again, I referenced like me five years ago. There were times five years ago where I would have this kind of like vision come into my mind, like if I married this person and we had kids, like she would like come home from being out with our kids and I'd be like, Hey, how is this? And like and not get a full answer, and then feel like I need to ask 20 or 30 questions to be like, what the heck is going on? Right. And I just want like the opposite of that. Like, I just want it's just like there's not any, it's just all above board, like it's it's like it's just it's just open and and it's like there's not um like we can just I find myself being like, I just want to be able to talk, like I just want to be able to like love love ourselves enough and love each other enough to just be able to say what's true and what's honest and real. Like yeah, because everything else is a performance. I mean so you know the number of the number of women I've had, specifically women, I haven't had a lot of guys tell me this, but the number of women I've had tell me that they got up on the altar to get married and they knew that it wasn't the right thing to do, and then they did it anyway. That's terrifying. Yeah, I mean, of course, everything's okay, it all ends up sorting itself out, no biggie.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:52

Um, but I just don't want to live a life like that. I'm like, because it it just opens up realms, it opens up universes of like when you're in, I want to live life in the pulse. I want to live life in the pulse of pure creation. That's what I want all day, every day.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:08

Like yeah, so yeah, I I I don't know what I'm sensing in the background is just like it's not fully coming through, but it's like there's this a little bit of fear, concern, like monitoring, like little bit of wobbly self-trust there on the vetting front.

SPEAKER_08 1:37:33

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:37

Yeah. So, you know, just something to notice.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:43

It's it's very precise what you're saying. Like, I have a I have a history of dating potential, I guess you could say. So I sort of like yeah, I've been I've been unwinding that. Like I can see people's potential and I can also see who they are, and it's like, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:02

Great, great thing to do. Yeah, hard thing to do, but great thing to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:12

So listening to me, Ginger, are you like, is there anything that's like blaring off the page where you're like, you know, Forrest, either like, I know this is true for you and you haven't said it, or it would be really interesting to have you kind of speak to this area a little bit more regarding the matchmaking component.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:46

Well, I mean, you haven't spoken to like the dark primal beast animal at all that we both know exists inside of both of us, right? And for listeners, it's probably a very strange thing to hear out of context, but like, wow, like how do they know about that, you know, about each other? It's like they must have da-da-da. We have not. Um, but when you can sense things, it's like, look, there is that component that I think gets, you know, you you made this comment in passing about like I feel like a good Christian boy. And I'm like, I mean, that's not true, right? So I think the the approval of that, um, you know, uh Omra Pani writes about it as like the wolf, and I speak about it more so in terms of the beast in men, like the self-approval of that and the willingness to bring that through. And yeah, obviously, there's the self-trust and self-trust in the vetting piece. It's not like you're gonna just spring that on someone whose system can't interface with that, but I think there is probably an element that wants to be spoken where it's like, yeah, this does exist in me. I'm not yet in full uh approval of it in the way of like speaking it out freely or letting that energy be the thing that like even leads, right? Because it's not acceptable, palatable. But that's the thing that we need. It's like, guys, like that. I don't know, it's like at least for all the women in my sphere, is they're very hungry for the wolf, and they are building capacity to be able to receive that. So that's the really like the only big thing that comes up in the background there.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:27

Yeah, it's it's um, I mean, so there's a few things to say on that. Because one is like, yeah, of course, we get we get very deeply conditioned around men are violent and these kinds of things. So it I think it has it has me shy away from showing up like that until I can really know that it's safe or welcomed or wanted.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:49

Um yeah, I can understand that.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:55

Momentary.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:56

I have commentary.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, so let me let me finish my sentence and then you give me commentary. Like basically, basically, like when I'm in my when I'm in my raw, primal sexual thing, it's like I there's something that happens in me, which is like I'm just not gonna settle until I have completely dismantled all the ways that you're pretending in this moment, and I have the most fucking supple, fertile, pure, essential thing. And it's like for me, it's like ha ha ha, I fucking got it. Like, it's like this thing of like I want the most I want the most it's so it's so interesting. It's it's edgy because it gets so close to something that could sound really extractive, but it's the opposite of that. It's in service. It's like um, I want to I understand, yeah. It's it it's like um you can take all your clothes off and still not be naked, you know what I mean? And it's like I want the naked um like whether that's like I want the mess, like whether it's crying, whether it's like shaking, whether it's like whatever. It's like I want the full release, I want the full other side of all the thing, and I want that all the time. And that's like where okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:25

Well, the last part is is not gonna serve you. I'm just gonna tell you that straight up. Wanting that all the time is is is not gonna serve you.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:33

Yeah, that's a miss. You're right. You're right. That's a miss. That's a miss. It's like um well, I guess maybe I could say I want it all the time. It doesn't mean I expect it all the time.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:44

Um yeah, nor are you entitled to it all the time.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:47

For sure, a thousand percent. Um it's like it and and it's one of those things where it's another one of those grounds of when it's something that's active, you don't have to have it all the time to be able to have it all the time. And that's that's what I'm pointing at.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:12

That's true.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:13

Yeah, it's still there and it's still happening.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:16

That's very true.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:19

Thank you. Beautiful. I think those who have ears to hear will hear you. I actually don't need to add any commentary now. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:32

Just for my own calibrations, like, is that feel like it's coming more from the place you're pointing to?

SPEAKER_03 1:43:40

The place of truth, and there's a lot of nuance in the layers of the psyche, but it's still true. Yeah.

unknown 1:43:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:47

But would you call it?

SPEAKER_03 1:43:48

Yeah, there was a blip. I'm sorry?

SPEAKER_06 1:43:51

Yeah, go for it. Yeah, give me the blip.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:53

Uh there was just a blip of grabbiness. Just a blip, but I understand how you when you have access to full consciousness. I have I I understand how you hold that grabbiness. And I could also see the danger zone for you when you're not in full consciousness around it. And I could see how that would create a really terrible experience for a woman being in your field.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:18

Yeah, can you say more?

SPEAKER_03 1:44:19

I want to make sure just the extraction piece that you mentioned.

unknown 1:44:22

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:23

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:23

Yeah.

unknown 1:44:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:24

Yeah. But here's the thing: it's like back to what we were speaking about earlier. There is also self-responsibility where I, as a woman, I will not allow myself to be extracted from. So there's also like there's it takes two to tango in all things. We know this, like, of course. But the only thing that you have, you know, an invitation towards more mastery is like with yourself. And it doesn't really serve you to be grabby with that energy that is so delectable. It does not serve you. So, regardless of who it is that you are choosing or being with or whatever, or vetting, uh it just it ultimately comes back to you with you.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:09

Yeah, I mean, it's it's I understand that what we do and our intentions are not always the same. And of course, on an intention level, that's like quite literally the exact opposite of what I wanted to remember.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:19

Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:20

But I think from a process perspective, you know, part of what you're helping illuminate here is I want to be with a woman who I can I want to be able to have the experience I'm having right now, which is like being able to not have all the answers and not and be able to slow down and go, like, where am I in all of this? And where like I don't want to have to have it all figured out. There are so many crevices and contours in consciousness, like in my own being in connection that I don't know yet. And so I want to be able to like explore those knowing, like, I can I can navigate this, I just need a minute. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:09

Yeah, and I think for people listening, it's like who's responsible for slowing things down? Like who's responsible for asking for that space or creating that space or saying, hey, I need a minute. It's not the other person, you know. Of course, we want to be received when we say, Hey, let's slow things down. I want to I I like need a minute. Like, yes. So that does depend on the other person being down for it. But you know, ultimately ones who and I I literally coach women on this all the time because again, the really sensitive ones, uh, especially if they're like, let's say newly dating again or just like dipping their feet back into the pool, very often things will move very fast, and they uh you know might go into freeze or fawn. They're very very, very common for devotional, devotionally templated women to freeze or to fawn, especially fawn devotion and fawning, two sides of you know, a similar coin, but they have to learn, literally, they have to learn for themselves. They're the ones that get to ask for that slowing down so that they can be with the pulse that you're speaking to and have that like like ooh, okay, like let me just I don't have to know it all. Let me just feel for a second. I literally tell women if you need 30 seconds, you ask him for 30 seconds, you just tell him. Literally, guys watch sports, you guys are used to play by plays, blow by blows. Just be like, hang on a second, I'm gonna close my eyes. I need to go downwards and inwards and feel. I'm gonna do this for 30 seconds, I'll be right back. And then you just like sit there and you do that. It's like, and you just you can say to the guy, like, I don't need anything from you. I literally just need 30 seconds to close my eyes and feel. Just like sit tight and they'll respond. Men will totally listen to that. Vast majority of men will be like, Cool, I completely have space for you to do that. What you guys usually can't get on board with is like, where the fuck did you go? Like, why did you just like dip out or freeze? And then it gets it's very confusing because you get cut off from all the signals that we're giving you. Like cut off from the calibration. So, likewise, for you, what you just said, what I heard you say is more so like, hey, I want to be able to not know everything. I want to be able to just like not have it all together and be in the unfolding and be in the discovery and have that be okay. It's like cool, and and sometimes that will require you too to ask for space or like, hey, like let's let's just like take a pause here. I'm gonna just close my eyes. I'm not going anywhere. I still love you, or whatever it is. I just need to feel, and it's so easy, and most people get real bent out of shape about having to ask for something like that, and it's very normal. I just want to normalize that for literally everyone listening, you know, super normal. So yeah. Yeah, thank you for showing that piece.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:00

That was really generative.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:02

Yeah, it's like a I feel like a really good example just from the other day. I was talking to a friend of mine, and um long, long, long, well, it wasn't that long of a conversation, but basically the point got to being like, you know, if you're about to have sex with a woman and she's saying she's saying, Yes, I want to have sex with you, but she's not wet and you're about to penetrate her, like in my world, that's a boundary violation. Like you're not I would agree. Like you're not, you're not listening. Like, and and so it's really tough because he's you know, he was saying, like, well, Forrest, you're creating the conditions to infant in infantilize this woman, like she's saying yes to sex, and you're saying that if I penetrate her, it's a boundary violation. And I'm saying, no, I'm not saying it's only the man's responsibility, I'm saying there's responsibility on both sides. It's like he has a responsibility to to say what's true for her. And well, yeah, and you have a Responsibility to also go, I'm not buying this right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:03

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:06

It's on both sides.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:07

Yes. 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:10

It's it's in in the situation. It's, you know, when I'm with a with a woman in this example, it's like it's her responsibility to say, hey, I can I have 30 seconds, please. It's also my responsibility to notice, I think you need 30 seconds right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:23

Yeah. And that's the beauty beauty of co-creation because sometimes one person is less resourced, i.e., hasn't slept, hasn't eaten enough food that day, they can they don't have as much body awareness, and the other person does. And then it's like, whoever is more resourced, can we help each other? And then another day it's gonna be the other person who like has no awareness because they're just stressed. And then the other person, of course, can be like, hey, I think you might need to just go take a nap, love, you know, or whatever it is. So totally like that's the you know, in that level, it's beautiful to be dependent on another person for it's like a backup option, but we still hold ourselves, we still have ourselves. Then they're the bonus, they're an addition, they're like, you know, an amplifier, and then we really can help each other so so so much. And we can do this with friends too. It doesn't have to be just with like you know, intimate partners. Like we can absolutely do this with friends. So yeah, so good. I'm noticing speaking of body sensitivity and awareness, it is absolutely my lunchtime. I have to get some food in me soon. Um specifically carbohydrates, because I can tell my feet, despite the warm socks that I put on before we hit record, are definitely getting cold. Uh so I'm wondering if there's anything else that, yeah, that you want to make sure that we cover or whatever, whatever else before we yeah, wrap up for today.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:50

I think it's great. Um yeah, thank you. This has been uh this has been a kind of a journey for me. There's quite a lot of psychic energy moving over here and stuff that's been powerful aside.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:05

Can you feel your feet on the ground?

SPEAKER_06 1:52:07

I can.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:08

Well, that's good news. You're still on Earth and gravity still exists, and we're not spinning off into space yet. Although we are spinning through space.

SPEAKER_06 1:52:20

Yeah, but you know, I I just well, I want to create an opportunity if you want to plug any of your work, any of your offers. Obviously, I can link stuff in the show notes. Um, so I want to create space for you to do that, and I just want to share my deep appreciation for you for for this podcast and for who you are as a person and for your friendship. I love you and I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:45

Yeah, it has felt really good to do this with you. Very useful, very fun, very true.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:51

And um yeah, I feel grateful as well. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:58

So, plugs. Such a funny part of any podcast. Like, let me switch into business modes. Like, look, if you felt something on this podcast that you're like, oh my gosh, I really, yeah, I really resonate, or clearly there's something here for me, I think that's a better way to go about it. Like, if you want to know more about my body of work, hit me up on Instagram at mythic.feminine. You can DM me, that's totally fine. Um, yeah, I have obviously more so containers for women, but I also work with couples. That's gonna be a private container. I don't do group work with couples, it's really gotta be, and it's uh specific to heterosexual couples. I apologize, I just don't have embodied experience to serve anyone else. So no shade at all. So much love. And you know, so a man and a woman, if you want to hit me up, find me, and work with me. We can obviously do that, but the vast majority of my containers are gonna be uh for women. Some of them are gonna be like totally self-paced, like you have the opportunity to come inside, receive audio teachings and transmissions, and just move through at your own pace, which is so nourishing, I have heard, very grounding, very nourishing to just like have access to yeah, what I bring through on a day-to-day basis. So you can definitely enter that way. Um, obviously, I have live containers as well. So I would just say hit me up on Instagram, come on my mailing list, I can send you that link as well. Um and yeah, I think the best way to get started if if people are like, ooh, what's she about? For women is gonna be called the dip. It's just a little dip of your toes into the waters. And if you like it, you can come closer. Um, but that's a little bundle of about 13 or 14 teachings and uh very easy to do on your own. Just listen, just audio. I don't even do video, it's like just listen, just go for a walk outside of nature, take it in, see how it lands in your body. Very gentle. And then uh yeah, if you want the high octane stuff, that's you know, we do that in my one-on-ones. So I'm here for that too. It's just most people aren't ready for that. So uh anyway, thank you so much, Forrest. This has been awesome.

SPEAKER_06 1:54:58

Thanks, Chandra. I'll link your mailing list and your Instagram in the show notes and we'll do this again sometime.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:06

Happy to. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 1:55:08

Thanks, everybody.