Becoming Parks and Rec Nerds - EAB and Park and Rec Accreditation with Matt Johnson and Bryce Shearen

This week we may have to temporarily rename the podcast "The Parks and Recreations Nerds" as we welcome Matt Johnson, Director of Parks and Recreation for the City of Roseville. Along with my guest co-host Bryce Shearan, a colleague of mine at Bolton & Menk and former Parks and Recreation Director at the City of Little Canada.  Bryce also hosts another podcast - MRPA On the Air. See the show notes for a link to the podcast home page. 

The three of us talk about Roseville's innovative EAB removal and replacement program. We then talk about the Parks and Recreation accreditation standard that Roseville has achieved since 1994. It's a high standard that the Parks and Recreation department continues to meet every 5 years. 

Join us as we nerd out about Parks! 

AI Generated Episode Description:
Embark on an auditory exploration of urban green spaces with Matt Johnson, Roseville's visionary Director of Parks and Recreation, and guest co-host Bryce Sheeran. Together, we uncover the city's strategic battle against the invasive Emerald Ash Borer, detailing the ambitious tree removal and replacement program that paints a promising future for our urban canopy. Our conversation twirls through the challenges and achievements of managing natural spaces within city bounds, emphasizing the importance of public safety while nurturing the aesthetic and ecological vibrancy of our shared environments.

Have you ever considered the delicate dance of community engagement and practical forestry management? Our dialogue includes a conversation about the contractor Tree Trust that  spotlights the collective triumph in saving 250 trees from pestilence and the communal spirit that underpins successful public works projects. We unravel the threads of public and private tree management, revealing the intricate partnerships and initiatives that bolster both the beauty and health of our urban landscapes. The narrative extends beyond Roseville, inspiring neighboring communities to cultivate their own verdant urban retreats.

Wrapping up our journey, we reflect on the enriching pursuit of parks and recreation accreditation. Discover how feedback and peer reviews transform the groundwork of public service, fostering growth, and encouraging equity and non-traditional programming to flourish. As we stray from our usual public works focus, this episode offers a fresh perspective on the nuanced world of parks management, igniting a passion among veterans and newcomers to the field alike. Tune in for an episode that promises to deepen your appreciation for the green oases that grace our cities.

Show Notes:

MN Recreation and Parks Association On the Air Podcast
https://www.mnrpa.org/Podcast

Roseville EAB Response Program
https://www.cityofroseville.com/2006/Emerald-Ash-Borer-EAB

NYT Article: Why One Man Runs a Tree Service That Won’t Cut Down Dead Trees
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/08/realestate/eco-friendly-landscaping-dead-trees.html

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Public Works Nerds Podcast. Welcome to the Public Works Nerds Podcast, a Public Works Podcast of the nerds, by the nerds and for the nerds. I'm your host, mark Culbert. Today we're going to talk about parks yes, I said parks. We're joined by Matt Johnson, parks and Recreation Director with the City of Roseville and a former colleague of mine, and we're going to chat about Roseville's Emerald Ash Borer response and their innovative removal and replacement program, and we're also going to touch a little bit on accreditation as well. Welcome, matt. Thank you, mark, happy to be here. Good, but before we learn more about Matt and dive into those topics, I want to introduce my guest co-host today, and this is a new colleague of mine, bryce Sheeran, who is the Parks and Recreation Strategic Development Director at Boatman Bank and formerly you were.

Speaker 2: 1:02

I was the Park and Recreation Director at the City of Little Canada, okay.

Speaker 1: 1:07

And you're no rookie to this podcast bit, so why don't you take a little minute to talk about your other podcast and, yeah, absolutely what you're doing at Bolton Mink now?

Speaker 2: 1:17

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, mark. I appreciate you having me on the show today as your co-host. Yeah, and I would like to say that we are going to be park and rec nerds today instead of public work nerds.

Speaker 1: 1:26

I don't know.

Speaker 2: 1:29

Let's slow the roll on that, but okay, All right. Yeah, but I've had the wonderful opportunity to be the co-host of MRPA On the Air, which is a Minnesota Parks and Recreation Association podcast where we chat all things park and rec related. We talk about capital improvements, race and equity funding, parks maintenance, all those great things. So it's been a wonderful opportunity to talk through all those and I know you have a vast listenership. Is that a word, listenership?

Speaker 1: 2:03

The Public Works Nerds podcast. Yes, let's just go ahead and say it's in the yes, a really big number, but we won't say what it is.

Speaker 2: 2:09

So I just want to throw out a quick disclaimer for all you nerds listening that we are going to be talking parks today, so I would encourage you to enjoy maybe a funner and a little lighter episode than what you might typically hear in a Public Works Nerds podcast. But, yeah, thanks for having me. And again, my role here is new at Bolton Menk. It's something super exciting for me having the opportunity to work with cities all over Minnesota and and counties and counties absolutely, bolton Menk has offices in many states, which I should probably know all of them, but north dakota, iowa, north carolina, south carolina maybe I'm missing one colorado, colorado. So a lot more opportunities for me to help parks departments um, create, enhance their parks. Uh, so it's been a lot of fun. I've only been here a few months, but, but yes, I come as a director of parks, so I happen to know a few things, but probably not as much as Matt.

Speaker 1: 3:09

Yeah, and that's why you know I asked you to to uh co-host with me today is to, um, bring a little bit more of that park nerdy uh, expertise, uh to this episode, and so we can properly grill Matt today, um, but uh to this episode, and so we can properly grill matt today, um, but uh. And then I just wanted to say I was, as I was running through that list of states, I don't think you said minnesota, minnesota, yeah, I mean we're kind of restarting this one and make sure we got that out there before somebody uh hit me on that.

Speaker 1: 3:38

But all right, cool. Well, um, and you know we are like Bryce said. You know this is, this is kind of a Parks and Rec episode. However, forestry is a very variable task between departments depending on where you are. I mean, there are certainly many public works departments out there that do manage the urban forest and there are many parks departments that do as does as Roseville does. So it's absolutely 100% something that public works professionals do deal with.

Speaker 1: 4:17

Obviously, this touches a little bit on our recent episode with Hannibal Hayes, where we talked about some forestry items as well. So, and also accreditation, which we're going to talk about a little later. I mean, there's certainly opportunities for, uh, public works departments to become accredited through that agency. We're just going to talk about, you know, Roseville's process, why they've done it, what they've gotten out of it, um, over the last 20 years, 30, almost 30 years that they've been accredited through the Parks and Rec agency organization that they have. So, all right, so let's jump in again.

Speaker 1: 4:53

Welcome, Matt. Let's jump right in and talk about Emerald Ashmore, but before I do that, let's give a little bit more background on you, Matt. You know you and I were colleagues at Roseville for many years. I came in as more of a seasoned person and became director of public works after 18 months. But you, you know, through that time at Roseville I watched and worked with you as you climbed the ranks through various positions there at Roseville. I even gave you a hard time when you were the field scheduler and I was scheduling fields for youth baseball games.

Speaker 3: 5:33

So yeah, yeah. Well, thank you, mark, again, humbled to be here. It's a great podcast and a great opportunity to share a little bit of the fantastic work we're doing in Roseville and also hopefully get some feedback from folks in the long run on what we're doing. But yeah, my background. I began my really my parks and recreation career, like so many folks in the industry, at 18 years old, came home from college and needed a summer job and Parks and Rec was hiring in the summer in my hometown of Superior, wisconsin, to just be a playground manager, to go there and teach kids to play box hockey and kickball. And I took the job because it seemed fun and fit. And then I put it on the shelf and went back to college and went back to my job as an intramural referee at school.

Speaker 3: 6:20

While I was going to school for history and political science and kept matriculating through campus recreation, kept coming home and doing this parks and recreation work and wasn't bright enough to realize that that might be a career. And so I finished school and went and got a job in an unrelated field, actually working in politics, and did that till the end of a campaign for about six months and was at a point where I was going to be hired by another political campaign and just didn't have any fun the first time through. But there was an opening for a very temporary job at campus recreation at the University of Minnesota, where I had worked as a student worker for four years and I said I'll do it for as long as you'll have me, and that turned into 11 years, oh wow, through various roles there. So I began there in their membership department and then running intramural sports and sport clubs. But then the opportunity at Roseville came up to work as the outdoor fields and adult league supervisor, which was appealing to me because I liked the idea of working in parks and recreation with that broader clientele, touching people throughout every demographic, not just the 18 to 22-year-old, and I took that position in Roseville in 2013. And it's funny today we're talking about EAB because I started in Roseville managing softball leagues and I remember all this chaos of people running around Roseville going Emerald Ashmore is here what are we going to do? And not really knowing what that meant. So to be sort of at the helm of that program a decade later has been an interesting transition.

Speaker 3: 7:57

I spent a couple years working in the adult sports realm with the outdoor fields and adult sports, transitioned over to the Roseville Skating Center and the Oval, which is a world-class facility. It's a one-of-a-kind experience. You literally cannot work anywhere else where you will manage 110,000 square feet of refrigerated ice. So you learn problem solving. You learn how to solve things that you can't just call a colleague and say how did you do this? Because nobody else has a facility like that. In 2018, became the assistant parks and recreation director in Roseville and then in 2022, was lucky enough to be named the parks and recreation director in Roseville and have been there for a couple of years. Roseville is a really, really special community that really values their parks and recreation services. You and I used to joke about that as we competed for resources for many years, and so I'm really blessed to be in a community that really supports park and recreation offerings, really trusts us to continue to move their parks forward and recreation offerings, and it's a special place. So, again, excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 9:04

Well said, all well said, and you've checked all the boxes for the Roseville people that will be listening. So well done and, yeah, it's great to have you here, it's great to see you again, so I'm looking forward to this conversation. Well, let's jump in. Let's talk about Emerald Ash Borer. So Roseville, as I recall, had over 1,100 ash trees, you know, in the, you know, by 2020, I guess, is probably when that number was calculated in the public right-of-way and parks. So when did you decide, when did Roseville decide, that they needed to take a more proactive approach to managing EAB?

Speaker 3: 9:45

Yeah, that's a great question, Mark, and the story does begin way before 2020. Eab obviously came to Minnesota in 2009, 2010, and was first identified in Roseville in 2013. There had been some preliminary planning done between 2010 and 2013 of what's going to happen when it does come here, and really there was an aggressive plan laid out at that time of we're going to try to plant every tree we take down or as close to it as we can do, and they tried to get out in front of it. And so, as they knew trees were going to have to come down that were ash, they planted buddy trees next to them, which were trees that would start young and ideally be kind of at least a little more established when the ash had to come down, but there still wasn't a tremendous amount of funding or staff bandwidth to deal with it in a more aggressive manner. And so what happened is, you know, over about that 10 year period, somewhere around 900 ash were removed through various ways. Some of them started to fall down. Some of them were taken down through public work staff, through parks and rec staff, or through our disease and hazard kind of contract, just like we would with an oak that was failing or something like that.

Speaker 3: 11:00

We were really ramping up, realizing that they talk about this death curve with emerald ash borer, which is from once they know you have it until about year eight. Things are pretty calm and fairly level and you've got a little bit of time to collect yourself. And then between like year eight and 11, things really ramp up in kind of a very steep curve and you're going to probably lose between 60 and 80% of your ash in that time period, and that came up right about 2020. We were starting to get to that peak where we expected things to really increase, but of course so did the pandemic, and so everything sort of paused and we were getting ready to do something, but we didn't know what it was. But everything pretty much paused for a year and then, the summer of 2021, I think, the pressure on the dam became so much because people were seeing it. You would drive around the cities and you'd see city and see ash trees with half a canopy and we just calling our normal tree contractor, putting our staff out to take care of it. We weren't able to keep up and we knew we had to do something now and we had to do something aggressive or we were going to have a real safety situation on our hands, and so that's when this idea of continuing kind of a more aggressive program came to fruition.

Speaker 3: 12:11

The real sort of hero of the story, I would say, is how we approached it, which is we at that time had a little under 1200, few under 1200 trees to remove and we were pretty insistent. We wanted to keep that one-to-one. So we wanted to plant 1200 trees in that period as well, but we didn't have any idea how to do that. We thought if we could try to piecemeal it with five or six different vendors, like we were doing, our disease and hazard, but how much staff time would that take to even manage that? We didn't have the staff to do that. We have a halftime forestry coordinator in Roseville and we have a park superintendent that wears about 80 hats trying to manage this project. So we had sort of on the background.

Speaker 3: 12:52

Concurrently with this, the city of Roseville has been very, very active in best value procurement, which is the legal alternative to low bid, and really the version that Roseville has used has speak to this idea of allowing your vendors to be experts and really saying what's the end game you have for your, your vendor, what is your outcome you want to have and let the vendor propose to you how they can get it done. And so, as we decided, we really wanted to aggressively tackle Emerald Ash Borer. We put out a very simple RFP that said we want to plant one-to-one, we want to remove 1,150 ash trees and we want a community that's well-communicated with, that feels like we're organized, and we want you proposers to tell us how you're going to do that. And it was remarkable. We ended up with two final proposals. But we had quite a bit of interest and the proposal that ended up winning the day was submitted by Tree Trust and they're a nonprofit that works thoroughly in essentially reforesting communities. So they're not just a removal company and they also have an aspect of volunteerism there. They have an aspect of encouraging underrepresented populations to get in the forestry game. So immediately there was sort of a match there.

Speaker 3: 14:05

But the biggest thing that impressed us is they took our RFP back and with their proposal said you guys are thinking about this all wrong. You shouldn't remove 1,150 trees, you should only remove 900 and preserve 250 of your best ash, because they're already fully established trees and we love trees. And they came to us and sort of sold us on this vision of removing 900 ish trees, preserving through treatment 250 of the best ash in roseville but planting through 1152 trees. So we were actually going to plant more trees than were removed and they sold us on having this program that give or take they could manage and they would do it over a three year period and it was solely based on their expertise, their know-how, and we were sort of able to coax it, to quality control it.

Speaker 3: 14:54

But they took it and we are in year three of it right now and they're knocking it out of the park. So it's been, it's really been a fantastic operation. And the hero of the story I think is is twofold Tree Trust, who has been really, really great, but also that procurement method. That wasn't us pretending to be experts and saying we know how to do this, you have to do it A, b, then C, then D, but instead saying you're the experts, tell us how it can be done. And it was a novel approach at the time and this is a great example of it really bearing fruit.

Speaker 1: 15:28

Yeah, it's a unique opportunity for that. I mean, it's it's kind of like a design, build uh type of project really where, like you said, you just tell the contractor hey, this is, this is what we want, this is what we want to get out of this. Tell us how we get there, Um, but, uh, yeah, and and it's it's. It's interesting that Tree Trust came with that kind of interesting concept and you know, really, I think there will be a lot of people that appreciate the fact that you're keeping those 250 trees.

Speaker 3: 15:55

Yeah, it's really been great to, number one, be able to preserve that. And there's even some thought and the science isn't totally there yet yet that as you thin out the ash population there may be more resilience to that scarcity. So that could happen. But even if not, the ability to treat it in a more limited quantity while other trees establish, while you essentially reforest the community, is going to be a huge upside for our community and even in the short run we'll love to see those trees in those significant spaces.

Speaker 1: 16:23

So what was the? So you did get two proposals, we did Yep. What was the like? Generally speaking? We don't have to get into specifics, but was there a pretty significant cost difference between the two?

Speaker 3: 16:33

Well, I would say, actually tree trust was the lower of the two cost. So we ended up having the proposal that sort of fit our vision but also was lower cost. But what Tree Trust really did that sold us on it because cost was a relatively small portion of what was factored in was their ability to actually manage it with strong community engagement. So the other proposer is a great vendor. They do great work in the forestry world but really they do the traditional model where they'll send somebody out to site X, they'll remove that tree and then stump grinder will come out several days later but don't necessarily have that built-in infrastructure to manage resident calls, to manage the conversations that need to be had on why this new tree in your boulevard is important. So Tree Trust sort of had that. They had that oomphph, that expertise and, um, it's been a really unique partnership. That's again really been fantastic for the city and one that I'm sure that we'll keep in some way shape or form after the eab program.

Speaker 2: 17:32

Yeah, completes I had the benefit of being the director of the neighboring city. So, as we do often in parks and rec, we don't start something new. We then don't reinvent the wheel. We use what our neighbors are doing, and so we call it plagiarizing. And so I uh kind of use a similar model in little canada to what rosa was doing.

Speaker 2: 17:53

But and I may be biased because I'm a rosa resident, but I really appreciate about rosa's program is, I had an ash tree in my front yard. It was a right away tree and I got that communication on the front end hey, you have this tree in the right away, it is not your responsibility. Uh, we will take it down and we will replace it. You know, that was another question that I had is is it going to be replaced Right? As a parks and rec individual, I definitely advocate for trees in our community and that canopy that um would provide on that street. So then I get another communication your tree is going to be taken down this day and it's like, well, that's great. And then it's like your stump is going to be ground this day, great. And then they put a new tree in, love it, and they're watering the tree, they put the mulch, so it's really been a fantastic program.

Speaker 2: 18:38

I can't say we went to that level in Little Canada, but level in little Canada. But uh, you know, we definitely had that same issue of 2020 rolls around and all of a sudden, you just look at the canopy in the city and you're like what, what happened? And we need to do something. Uh, we need to do something pretty quick. So, uh, matt, thanks for setting the the gold bar, the standard high, but allowing, uh, your neighboring communities to utilize what you did and, you know, helping the communities around you.

Speaker 3: 19:06

Well, thank you, it's certainly great to hear that as a resident you had that experience and we certainly had a fair amount of that that you know. Again, a big part of this plan and this is regardless of public works or parks and recreation is that communication piece is so key. People don't like to be surprised because they think right of way is theirs and they to them. It is their front yard. So we, we learned real early. You know, you got to touch two, three, four times before you start talking about taking that tree down and um, that's again been positive for us as well and and the community reception's been really, really strong to the program so what's the you you mentioned?

Speaker 1: 19:44

you're in the third year of the three-year program, so are you on track for getting all 900 of those trees removed?

Speaker 3: 19:49

We are actually yeah, we're actually ahead of schedule on that. So, uh, we're, we're very near to 900 right now and I would imagine within the next couple of months we'll we'll have them all removed. Um planting as was originally planned. We'll continue into 2025. And I think the largest bottleneck there has been twofold One our seasons and our summers have been so brutal these past couple of years that really you have to do it in the spring and you have to do it in the fall, can't do it all summer long, versus you can remove throughout the year. And then the other piece is supply is an issue, as every community is trying to plant. So Tree Trust did a fantastic job of sourcing their trees from multiple different sources, so they've never not been able to deliver on trees. But we sort of asked, hey, can we accelerate, can we get out in front of this? And there's not enough stock out there to do it, nor do we necessarily have the capacity to water and keep alive.

Speaker 3: 20:43

So the other thing about stretching it out for four years is, by the time the trees are planted next year, that first row of trees will be four years old, will be a little bit more resilient and sort of. They're still going to need some TLC, but should need less than those brand new trees that are going in next year, are you?

Speaker 1: 20:59

asking the residents to step in on some of that watering.

Speaker 3: 21:02

Yeah, that's a really another sort of innovative part of the program is with the tree. There was actually a tag push put on every new tree and there's a QR code on it. It said if you're willing to take up this watering, will you scan the QR code and let us know so we don't come right up behind you and water it? And we've had a fair amount of success with that. A lot of residents do say you know amount of success with that. A lot of residents do say you know, hey, I'm going to be out watering my lawn anyways, I'll water it, and so we've had a fair amount of success with that. Um, but the other piece that we've had uh, that's really been helpful is AmeriCorps has provided us with a couple of forestry core. Uh, folks that are gaining experience and we've been able to use them as a crew to go out and water and to um really make sure that we're touching all of these trees on almost a weekly basis, especially given what the last few summers have been drought conditions.

Speaker 1: 21:50

Yeah, so what? What is the watering schedule for a tree like what? What do you tell your residents that want to take care of it?

Speaker 3: 21:58

uh, how much to water yeah, there's a um, there's an amount per uh. Essentially we tell them to do it every few days, but there's a specific gallon amount based on the species. And again, you're punching above my weight class a little bit with that exact amount. I want numbers, man, but to be honest it's you know, touch it every couple of days, and that is usually included in that QR code as well. That's cool. In addition, on that tag, what's pretty neat? There's a little blurb on there, just a one sentence, about why it's important. So this tree will remove x amount of carbon from the air or manage this amount of storm water. So there's that education component too. It's not just help us by watering this tree, it's.

Speaker 2: 22:38

This is good for us, yeah, so one of the things I learned about watering trees is utilizing watering bags. Yeah, they are fantastic. And a little thing that I learned is the bag fills up with water it's like 20 gallons and then it takes about eight or nine hours to release the water. So it's a slow release, really saturates the tree. But the bag then sits empty for a period of three, four, five days before it gets filled again. One of the issues I was running into was people calling saying my bag's always empty. It's designed that way. It's designed to be empty more than it's designed to be full. If you go out and fill that bag every day, you're essentially going to be overwilding that tree. So the bags love them. I put them on every tree that I plant, but know that, uh, they are designed to be empty more often than they're designed to be full. It's a good point. It's a good point.

Speaker 1: 23:29

Most people probably. I probably had that same thought as I've driven past boy, that bag looks empty, but uh, that's good to know. Um. So, talking about the replacements, um, how did Tree Trust help you determine what kind of varieties to replace the trees with?

Speaker 3: 23:49

Yeah, so they did. We had a street tree master plan. That, again, had really been done. Very familiar with it.

Speaker 3: 23:54

Yeah, yeah, really, a smart guy helped us with it, which really was part of that EAB. The, I'm sure, dumbed down version of this story that I heard was when Dutch elm came through 35 years ago, they had this great idea of replacing those Dutch elm with this quick, growing hardwood tree called ash and so created this next wave of problems, and so there was a lot of commitment to this time around we weren't going to make the same mistake and we're going to have species diversity. So we had a number of trees about a dozen different varieties of trees that were sort of pre-assigned to various neighborhoods in the city with the idea of having that species diversity. But again, what Tree Trust did and what we really didn't see out of anybody else who approached us about this project is, they said, we know a lot about forestry and you should think about these varieties of trees that are found a little bit further south than Minnesota.

Speaker 3: 24:45

Yeah, I was going to actually ask about that. Yeah, because the climate is changing. Yeah, yeah, because the climate is changing, and so we about five percent of our trees are in that wave because, ironically, we did get some pushback from folks who were concerned about habitat and invasive species and you sort of have two very, very well-meaning approaches, both pro-environment, that are sort of at odds there of of um. So the balance was to try with about five percent of these new sort of just a bit further south species that can work their way in and see how they take do you have specifics on what those species are?

Speaker 1: 25:19

I do not. You do not have to check the show notes, we'll edit that one on that.

Speaker 2: 25:22

We'll check. We'll definitely put those in the show notes. Yeah, find out, because I one on that.

Speaker 1: 25:26

We'll definitely put those in the show notes Because I think people would be really interested in what those varieties are.

Speaker 3: 25:32

And I can provide that for you. I'd be speaking a little bit offhand. As to you, I certainly remember the conversations, but I'd be speaking a little off the cuff, yep.

Speaker 1: 25:41

That's cool. Well, that's great. I think it's interesting how we're changing things um. And I remember, I, I, you know that, the, the master tree, master plan, I remember it being a great resource, but also handcuffing, you know um, because, well, I got a plant of maple here.

Speaker 3: 26:04

I guess you know, yep um, and I think our approach now has been we utilize it, but maybe less as a Bible and more as a guide. Now that's good, and so I think there still has to be some order, because otherwise it's very challenging, particularly in this quantity, yep, because you know Bryce might want, you know, one species and Jane might want a different species, and they live next door, and how do you get the trees there? But still, we're talking to people, we're working with people and trying to find a way to make it work, if we can.

Speaker 2: 26:34

We utilize the 20-10-5 guideline for diversity of canopy growth and essentially it means that there's no more than 20% of one family, 10% of any genus and 5% of any species, because what we didn't want to happen is again in 30 years, another disease coming around and now putting whoever else is in the position to run into the same problem. So hopefully that diversity of the species will help curb that in years to come.

Speaker 3: 27:10

Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I think the other approach that we we did regarding reforestation that again came straight from tree trust is, when we talk about this world of essentially urban forests and public trees, we're talking very public, which is our right-of-way and our parks and our maintained spaces. Tree Trust made a very strong case of if you get trees in the hands of residents, even if you're not removing their ash which we're not doing that's still ultimately adding trees to the urban forest. And so, as part of their proposal, they proposed three tree sales. That would be done 150 trees per year to Roseville residents at a super subsidized rate. I think we did $40 a tree and those have just gone, gang. How big were they? They were pretty significant. I think they're two and a half inches, they're about 10. Too big for Priuses? That's what I can put, because we tried to load them in.

Speaker 1: 28:04

Is it Priuses or Prii Prii? Yeah, but anyway, hey everyone. I just want to take a quick moment to thank our sponsor, Bolton Mink, who is producing and editing our podcasts.

Speaker 4: 28:16

At Bolton Mink, we believe all people should live in a safe, sustainable and beautiful community. We promise every client two things We'll work hard for you and we'll do a good job. We take a personal interest in the work being done around us and, at the end of the day, we're real people offering real solutions.

Speaker 3: 28:37

But that's been real. So we've done two of the three of those. Everyone has sold out and we're actually now, as we look at what next, looking to potentially continue that practice of subsidizing trees and looking at it as a bigger picture. I think the old worldview was public is public and private is private. But the reality is more trees in our city, those benefits that we get of carbon reduction, stormwater management doesn't matter. They don't care if you're on public or private property. It all goes into the general goods. So that's practice we're looking to continue, even following this program.

Speaker 1: 29:11

You made a distinction there as far as the maintained areas and things like that. So this program is really focused on the public rights-of-way and the maintained areas in your parks, right? So you do have lots of open space with forest and trees and that, and you are just letting that be natural.

Speaker 3: 29:32

At this point in the game we are in points where there have been really a large amount of fall or deterioration. We have moved some of that wood out of there, but it does provide habitat benefits. It does provide environmental benefits. Wood out of there, but it does provide habitat benefits. It does provide environmental benefits.

Speaker 3: 29:49

In fact, there was a great article in new york times just this weekend, um, about a forester. That's his whole approach and I can give you that for the show notes is leaving as much as he can when it comes down, even in semi-maintained areas, because of that idea of there's more environmental benefit to it. Um, I think one thing that we did find and that we have increasingly found is, as ash trees deteriorate, there are areas that are sort of unmaintained. But if you have a 25-foot ash tree it can come down to a maintained area, say a pathway or a trail, and so we've had to go wider than we traditionally have had to look at removing trees that feel unmaintained. They feel off the beaten path, but if it falls on a pathway it's going to hurt somebody, and so we've had to kind of blur that line between maintained and unmaintained, just from a public safety standard.

Speaker 2: 30:38

Yeah, no, that makes sense. Has it been a challenge to share that message to your residents about? Hey, there's these areas, we're not going to take this tree down. But then, when they walk by on these trails and you have a premier park system, they're saying this doesn't look so great. What are you going to do about this? Why aren't you taking this down?

Speaker 3: 30:55

I think it has been. I think, again, it gets to the education and taking the time to share that and to really delineate safety versus non. More often than not we try to take the time to go and look at it and really to display or to share. You know, hey, this is off the beaten path. If it falls and does create issues near the trail, we'll look at removing it, but really that habitat value outweighs any aesthetic value that you're perceiving. And, uh, again, that understanding so far has been positive. Certainly, a few folks push back but on the the whole we were usually able to leave the conversation with a good understanding of why we're doing what we're doing. Great, you know um, how about?

Speaker 1: 31:34

have you had any questions or pushback about trees on private property?

Speaker 3: 31:41

the uh, meaning that we aren't handling? Yeah, currently. Yeah, yeah, I think there hasn't been. There certainly have been questions. I think that it does go down to simply funding availability and our ability to manage it. I wouldn't say to a level of pushback. I think there's an understanding of that that people like to ask and I don't blame them for doing so. I have heard that there is a community that's slipping my mind that is beginning to look at some grant programming, but to potentially for lower income folks helping to remove ash trees. But even the ability to manage that is quite daunting to a community of our size. But again, most people understand. They do ask us for resources. If we have somebody we recommend to help them or anything like that. But we haven't had too many people. We really haven't had a lot of people be overly persistent about that.

Speaker 2: 32:36

I don't want to put you on the spot, but are you aware of resources that are available for residents?

Speaker 3: 32:41

I think right now, when I speak to resources, I speak to sort of vendors that can help them currently. When I speak to resources, I speak to sort of vendors that can help them. Currently, I know that there were applicants and I don't know if they were granted, through the last round of relief program, the DNR grant funding that were pursuing a program by which they could essentially pass that money out to residents of lower income populations to help them. But those were communities that had a pretty robust infrastructure of staff to manage that, you know, or folks that actually removed the trees themselves in a way that Roseville isn't set up that way.

Speaker 2: 33:16

Yeah, the downside is, you know some of these trees in the backyard, they're so big, the cost of removal is just is quite large. Yeah, as a homeowner it's like, oh, what am I going to do, right, and I don't want this to come down to my house, my neighbor's house, and so they're kind of at a loss. Um, that was always a struggle, and my community as well, as helping them out. But knowing that you know it is private property, it's not necessarily the public's dollars that should be going to that I.

Speaker 3: 33:42

I think that's true. I think we're very sympathetic. It's you probably not too dissimilar from. You know the water main that's broken on the wrong side of the curb, cut open beyond. You know the what was 1150 city. You know city owned trees. How do you stop that flow? You know how do you do just one or even just 10 or just a hundred, and I think that's a was a very valid concern and what we're still pretty concerned about.

Speaker 1: 34:23

Well, yeah, and like you said, you open up Pandora's box, you set a precedent, and how, how far is that precedent going to go then? For oaks, right, you know? Or or other trees that are suddenly diseased and hazardous, and you know, the residents of the world, I don't want to pay for it, um, so yeah, that can be.

Speaker 2: 34:43

that can be a pretty slippery slope can we circle back to the uh treatment of trees real quick? Yeah, so I love the idea that you were saving those trees. That's, ash trees provide such a great shade amenity. I think people take that for granted. Has that been um doing well on those roughly 300 trees that you've been injecting? So?

Speaker 3: 35:04

far most of them have taken, and we're actually at somewhat of an awkward spot where we have a few locations where the buddy trees that were planted 10 years ago are starting to get to a point where they need either their own sort of atmosphere around them or to be removed, and so we're going to have to make some hard decisions about do we take the buddy tree that's starting to really look good and like a real tree or do we kind of let the ash deteriorate. And so we've seen some of that. We certainly have had some cases where treatment hasn't succeeded, but by and large, part of the criteria for that selection of that 250 trees was trying to select those that seem to be in the best shape and have the most possibility of success, and so so far, so good on it. But I think part of my with anything related to eab you'll you'll never know for sure.

Speaker 2: 35:58

You know it can change so fast and that treatment can be indefinitely right that go through the natural life cycle of the tree.

Speaker 3: 36:05

Correct, that's the plan right now. Right, it's every two years and you know that is one of the reason many communities are not treating is because that's an indefinite expense.

Speaker 1: 36:15

Right yeah, yeah, that's interesting, um, do you have any other questions on?

Speaker 2: 36:23

the tree thing. No, I think that was fantastic. Very well, we grilled them a little bit, you know.

Speaker 1: 36:30

Yeah, you know, I made them squirm a little bit. So good mission accomplished, all right. So let's um, let's talk about accreditation. So what organ is it? What is accreditation, matt? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 36:44

Can I just jump in here and he'll go through what accreditation is. But if I got my facts right, roseville is only one of four park and rec departments in Minnesota. Two of them are St Paul and Minneapolis, and two of them are St Paul and Minneapolis I think the other one is Rochester. So we're talking probably three. Maybe Duluth is in there, but three highest populations out of Roseville and also I think there's only 200-ish in the country. So as you talk about that, kudos to you and your department. I know a lot more about this than probably Mark does, but that's a fantastic feat, so I'll let you share with our listeners all about the accreditation program.

Speaker 1: 37:24

How old were you in 1994,? Man?

Speaker 3: 37:27

I think the fifth. On that one, mr Culver, yeah, I'm happy to share more. So the accreditation that you both are referring to is called CAPRA, or the Commission for Accreditation of Parks and Recreation Agencies I will use CAPRA henceforth because it's a mouthful to say anything else and really what the program is. It began in 1994, good research Mark and was designed at the time to essentially move the idea of parks and recreation beyond the old stereotype of it's a couple of folks out there throwing soccer balls and mowing lawns and really say there has to be intentionality, there has to be planning, that even at that time there was this understanding that parks legitimately improved communities but it needed to be done intentionally and thoughtfully. And so they developed at the time a list of standards through the most prestigious departments and academics listed standards. You essentially submitted a self-assessment to say why you met them, including reams and reams of documentation to show that I'm not just saying I do this, but I live this, I walk the walk. This is top of mind because we are having our visit, which is our sort of our final audit, next week to for our sixth reaccreditation. So you reaccredit every six or every five years, yeah, and we are going through it yet again.

Speaker 3: 38:53

It's evolved quite a bit since those early days in 1994. But really, what it is the, the analogy probably very bad analogy I'm going to use is it's intended to really give good strong bones to an organization. So when you have a project come along, you don't just think, well, how should we do engagement? We'll just write some letters, but instead, because through accreditation you've had to develop an engagement plan for your whole system, you look at it and you say, oh, this is a community park with, you know, 2000 active users. We need to get them a mailing, we need to get signs in the park. We have a plan, we know what we're doing.

Speaker 3: 39:29

As this has evolved, there've been standards related now to equity, related to a non-traditional programming, a lot related to evaluation of how you're providing services to the community. So not just doing what you've always done, but actually doing needs assessments what does your community need? What will your community need in 10 years? How are you evaluating your current programs and services? But it's really designed to elevate and to make sure that that's in the DNA of your department, not just one person or not just sort of a piecemeal approach. So it's a great program. It's a fair amount of work, certainly as, again, we talk right before our final visit. I'm a little accredited out at the moment but I also can crystal clear, see the value of it and, as I have some folks in my department who this is their first time through it, they've learned so much from it and you can really see them sort of get to understand the big picture more through this process, which is really great.

Speaker 1: 40:28

Were you the assistant director five years ago when this went down, I was yeah, I mean, I remember like you were a different person then. Yeah, I had hair because of this and then I didn't after after. So I'm hoping that this time around is a little easier on you, because you've got people doing some stuff for you.

Speaker 3: 40:45

Yeah, well, it's so I will say that you know, as we talk about the benefits of the program, this is my third time in Roseville as we've gone through this. The first time I was very new to the organization and I was sort of tangentially involved. But I, being a nerd, which fits the podcast I actually did go through and read the documents and it felt like it was a great consolidated way to kind of learn what Roseville was all about. And so I had the opportunity five years ago to actually manage it. I was the accreditation manager. The director at the time offered me that opportunity to say, hey, if you want to take it and run with it, if you think he can do it, do it.

Speaker 3: 41:23

And I think that really prepared me to understand things like lines of authority Again those underlying important things, that big picture, wise matter, and it really prepared me to become the director because I got to understand kind of the why we do things and the best practices and where we should be. It allowed me to be aspirational. So, yes, there's some folks in the organization now that I've shared some of that with, without trying to unduly burden folks that have their own full load as well, and I actually, right before I came, I talked to Carrie Anderson, who's our assistant Parks and Recreation director, about, and I just asked that exact question. So do you feel like this has been a good learning experience or are you totally resentful of it right now? And she said it's been awesome. I've learned so much. It's great.

Speaker 1: 42:09

Yeah, I could, I could definitely see that and I've. I really want to get a public works agency that's going through the process for the first time, you know, on. I kind of want to do a series of podcasts where we talk at the very beginning Okay, why are you doing this? What do you think you're going to get out of it? And then talk to them a couple of times, if they have time, uh, during the process, um, when they still have hair, or as they're losing their hair, um, and then you know, maybe talk to them a year after and just say like, okay, what did you get out of it? And you know what, what, what surprised you and things like that.

Speaker 1: 42:48

So I mean, it's, it's really interesting. It is a lot of work. Um, yeah, absolutely kudos to you and your staff for all of the energy and effort you put into it, but clearly you've gotten some some good out of it. So I mean, you talked, you talked a lot about the, the value, um, what maybe surprised you the most going through the process? And you know you were doing the renewals, correct, but, but talking about some of the newer initiatives that were coming on, like the equity side and things like that, like what? What are some of the things that maybe surprised you as you went through it?

Speaker 3: 43:14

yeah, I think I. I think the surprise is always that you're the reviewers, are other peers in the industry, ideally from high-performing agencies, and they're going to read things differently. So you know you might feel like boy, I've got this really buttoned up and you know an ada transition plan. You know we, we know how we're going to transition to ada compliance as projects come up. That that's how it's going to work and you have it all laid out. You said we've done these 10 ADA transition projects over the last five years and we're really excited about it.

Speaker 3: 43:46

And all of a sudden you get a reviewer who says, well, but that document doesn't quite meet this intention or that intention. And there's kind of two ways you can take it. One you can get thin-skinned and be defensive which is all our nature and say, well, I do it right, he's innate. But the reality, of course, is that if you look at the intention of the process, it's to make yourself and your organization better. So you have to take that with an honest humility and say is there room for growth here? Is there things that we can be doing better? And if you can do it with that approach, even if it's not, oh my gosh, I'm going to rush and update this plan right away. That kind of sits with you and you start to. Next time you're reviewing that ADA project or the ADA transition plan, you might think to yourself.

Speaker 3: 44:32

God this one thing is just stuck in my craw because it was mentioned by my reviewer from you know, austin Texas, and it came from your reviewer from Austin Texas. And because and it came from your reviewer from Austin Texas because they had success with it and you truly are learning from others and that's really changed for me from five years ago. I took a tremendous amount of pride five years ago into we have to get every standard. You know, it was like a, it was like a test or quiz. We have to show that we're the best and when we worked with our team this time through, we were very intentional about trying to have that humility of we're going to try to glean opportunities for growth from this process and we're going to have a list that we walk out of this with saying we have to do these things better, or at least consider doing them better, because we're hearing from our peers that they do them this way and it works.

Speaker 1: 45:17

So why are we being stubborn? So you get this list of things of well, we think you could do this better. Here's some areas that you can prove, but you're still accredited. It's like it, you know if you don't implement those things right away, you lose your accreditation.

Speaker 3: 45:30

We'll find out but that's certainly the plan, uh. So the way, the way the accreditation works is there's 154 standards, uh. There's a number, uh, it's in the 20s and I can't recall what it is. They're called fundamental and you cannot be accredited if you don't pass those. And those are things that really are. It would be hard to be a high performing organization without a full master plan, without some things that are pretty important, like nationwide background checks of all staff and volunteers, things that just the national Recreation and Park Association have said. These are cornerstones. The others you have to get, as a renewing agency, 85% of we have a history of. We've gotten 100% the last couple of times and I still believe we will. But that doesn't mean that because I can still argue we're meeting that standard. But that doesn't mean that that feedback can't inform how we move forward to get better as an organization.

Speaker 2: 46:23

Good. When does this renewal process start? Is it weekly meetings, monthly meetings with a team? Do you put a project team? Do you have a war room set up?

Speaker 3: 46:36

A war room. Just talk me through the renewal process.

Speaker 2: 46:40

I here we are in may, I would assume you've. You maybe started this a year ago.

Speaker 3: 46:44

yeah, I've been well, having been very, you know, at a high level involved for the last two times through, there's been the similarity of, you know, 16, 18 months out, you say, okay, we got to start doing this, and we have that initial meeting and we assign some tasks and then you don't do anything for like five or six months until you're like, oh boy, we got to go now or we're going to be in real trouble. So I'd say work begins pretty much in earnest somewhere between a year to nine months prior to your visit date. This time we had had quite a bit of staff turnover related to essentially still the trickle down from me becoming director and some of those other things. So we had a smaller nuclear group that was pretty involved. We had, you know, probably four or five of us that were pretty involved.

Speaker 3: 47:30

And you begin, you sit down and you reread each standard, ideally with a fresh approach. The standards do change over time as well and you start kind of just spitballing ideas of what should we propose that satisfies this? Do we meet this standard? If we don't, do we need to look at changing our operation now? So that's when you're actually preparing for the visit, the way the program is intended to be lived, and again, with COVID and some other things, this was sort of a different cycle is you really should be kind of working towards it over that five-year period, because it's designed not to have you find a way to meet the standard on paper but to actually live that standard and to grow with it.

Speaker 3: 48:10

You do have to resubmit every year just a very brief, like they pick five standards that they send to you and say you know, evaluate, show us how you're meeting this standard. So there is an annual process as well, but five years you have to touch base on every 154 of the 154 standards and I would say, like I said, it's about a nine month process. Inevitably it ends with some 12 hour days that week before the report is due. I, when Lonnie Brocky, the previous parks and rec director, when we wrapped up the last one and sort of knew that it would be his last one, I said I'm going to get this done ahead of time next year. I'm going to get we will not be here until the moment it needs to be submitted and he laughed and he said you sure will. And I said.

Speaker 3: 48:56

he said I've done this four times and it's always been that way. And I said, oh, I got this, I'll figure this out, and wouldn't you know it? Um, we were scrambling right up until the moment it was submitted, but we, we did get it submitted and we're pretty excited about the work that went into it and so now they're coming for the site visit.

Speaker 2: 49:10

Yep, how long does that take? Is that a team? Is it one, one or two?

Speaker 3: 49:14

individuals. So the site visit and and I think capra's still kind of working through this um, they have gone to COVID changed how this happened. Last time we had a site of a visit of three individuals. They came to Roseville for three days, did park tours, kind of physically touched all of our documents and parks and met our staff With the digitization of documents. That's a little redundant now, and even the last time we did it we created everything electronically and then we literally printed it all out and handed it to them. That was a little silly With COVID. They kept the accreditation process going and they began virtual visits at that time. And where they've landed now is reaccrediting.

Speaker 3: 49:53

Organizations who meet a certain amount of standards can do a virtual visit. So our visit is actually virtual this time. So it's actually two days of meetings, a combination of conversations about the standards and then sort of conversations with our staff that are supposed to be more informal about. You know, tell me about this 110,000 square feet of refrigerated ice you have we don't know about that in St Louis, you know and walk us through how that operates. So it's kind of a twofold one is very data-driven, standard and then the other is, you know, very kind of informal get to know us, get to know what roseville has to offer, and they're sort of interspersed throughout this two-day period um two and a half day period. So, um, yeah, so it'll be, I think, less intensive than it was, but we will lose a little of that, you know. Get to know a colleague, face-to-face interaction that we've received in years past.

Speaker 2: 50:50

How, how do you share that with your residents that you know, assuming you're going to get the reaccreditation, how do you, how do you share that and really highlight the fact that you know you guys are setting the bar and you are doing the national standard for your park system?

Speaker 3: 51:04

You know I haven't totally figured that out because you know you do want to share it because there's a financial investment, both in terms of the labor that goes into it and also the simple cost of the program. But at the same time it does feel a little bit like tooting your own horn and you don't want to go too crazy on that. So the way the process plays out is we should know within two weeks of them leaving, and ideally right when they leave, that we've essentially cleared the bar, that we should be in good shape. But you don't become officially reaccredited until our national conference in October. So there's sort of a four month window where nothing really happens and I'll figure it out during that window how we're gonna, how we're gonna let our residents know. But it is that balance of we want to be proud. Our staff should be proud. I think there's a lot of folks in my department who worked really hard on this, but I've always been inherently uncomfortable with again doing too much horn tooting we just need to figure that out.

Speaker 1: 52:01

I know you've, you know, the council has always, you know, recognized the accreditation and said something during council meetings and things like that. But yeah, I mean, the fact the matter is is most residents probably don't care, you know, but it is. It is something that the city should be proud of and and residents should recognize that that there there is a good outcome to this.

Speaker 3: 52:25

Yeah, um, and you know, I think that's the biggest thing is the residents probably don't have a real strong feeling about the logo we get to put on our letterhead or anything like that. But what I hope the residents do get from it, whether they they know it or not is really strong service offerings and a very efficiently run department, because you can't get through accreditation if you don't do those things, and so hopefully they see the benefit over five years, not over any press release we might put out Yep, yep, well, good, so you're going to keep doing it.

Speaker 3: 52:58

You're going to keep budgeting for it. You're going to keep doing it. That's the plan at the moment is to continue with it Again, I think it's a great opportunity for our department to grow, but also for individuals within the department to grow. You know we invest in our staffs and ourselves in terms of professional development. We continue to pursue other education, continue to pursue our own growth. This is that for the organization, and so it can be frustrating, it can be hard work, but if you don't do that, I think your organization will atrophy over time and I'm very concerned about that. I want to be on the front edge. I want to be one of those four in Minnesota, because I think that that does allow us to provide high level of service. I'm going to you.

Speaker 1: 53:41

Oh sorry, I was going to ask both of you a question. As far as the state Parks and Recreation Association, or whatever you call yourselves over there, does that organization advocate for this at all? Does it talk about this? Does it encourage cities to go after the accreditation?

Speaker 2: 54:02

I don't know if it does as much as maybe they could. What they do advocate for is getting involved in the NRPA. So they don't maybe advocate for this program but they do advocate for getting into that organization. And the NRPA of course does advocate for cities to do this. Of course does advocate for cities to do this. When you see the list of what you have to do it just I think a lot of people, a lot of directors, a lot of commissions, councils, look at this list and they see the time commitment and they say we're doing things good. I think you know it. Maybe it's not worth the commitment to start and get going. So for someone who's gone through it and, uh, knows the process, you know there's, there's maybe a little more understanding, but it's hard to sell, I think, to a council now on, you know what the benefits you're going to get out of it.

Speaker 3: 54:58

I think I'd agree with that. I think that you again it's much, much easier having started, having done it, than it would be to start from scratch. There is going to be a significant reshaping of the standards over the next couple of years. They're just starting to roll out to get away from some of that that might be perceived as the busy work and really get into the organizational development work so that I think, to clear that hurdle where you will have new of that that might be perceived as the busy work and really get into the organizational development work so that, I think, to clear that hurdle where you will have new organizations pursuing accreditation Nationwide.

Speaker 3: 55:30

The number of accredited agencies has grown from 150 last time we did this to over 200. So new organizations elsewhere are doing it and I believe Rochester is new as well. I think they just added in the last couple of years. So people do find are doing it and I believe Rochester is new as well. I think they just added in the last couple of years. So people do find value in it. But you know, to be honest, even at an apartment Roseville size, it does at times feel like it's something that's made for a larger organization than us.

Speaker 3: 55:56

There are folks at these larger organizations that in their job description, accreditation manager is part of that. So when you're talking about what Bryce is and you might have a staff of 18 people and everybody wears 15 hats, the idea of putting this on that staff is daunting for folks, particularly when there aren't a lot of other associations here that can speak to the benefits of it. And that's the challenge is, I get a lot of people that ask me about it and the conversation pretty quickly usually turns to boy. But that's a lot of work. So great.

Speaker 2: 56:31

You uh use the um, you talk about how you are being reviewed and I'm going to use a term mark said earlier seasoned I I would say you're now seasoned in the capra accreditation process. Do you ever have the opportunity to go to some of these other communities that are going through the CAPRA accreditation process and review them?

Speaker 3: 57:02

got done last time in the not too distant future. The pandemic hit. I was also sort of transitioning behind the scenes into this director role pretty intensively working through that. I was actually slated to go and do one in 2020 and that all got kind of blown up. But our assistant director at Roseville, carrie Anderson, actually just did a visit and she loved it and I need to prioritize doing that because that's the other thing the program sells is you have this opportunity to sort of get an inside out look at someone else that's probably a high performer and it's a great opportunity for that visitor to learn, and that's the other kind of piece they really sell on the program and I know Carrie really appreciated that opportunity. The department she got to review is really well known, really well established, and she definitely took some ideas from it that we'll use in Roseville.

Speaker 1: 57:48

Cool Well that's great, that's great. Yeah, we got to ship you off to some. They have to start doing some international accreditations.

Speaker 3: 57:58

Paris sounds good Right After the Olympics. Let's do an accreditation there.

Speaker 1: 58:05

Well, that's great, that's great. Well, do you have any other questions for Mr Johnson?

Speaker 2: 58:09

No, no other questions for Matt here on Capra. Did you want to make fun of him in any way? Absolutely not. No, I had the opportunity to work with Matt and I loved it and hopefully we continue to have opportunities to work together and I loved it and hopefully we continue to have opportunities to work together.

Speaker 1: 58:23

So it's, it's been a lot of fun. Yeah, well, I, I agree, I I really enjoyed working with Matt, um and uh, I I regret that you know there were some things that I was really looking forward to doing with you once you became the director. You know some programs to work on and some things, and we had those conversations and then and then I left um. So you know, I, some programs to work on and some things, and we had those conversations and then and then I left Um. So you know I regret that we didn't have a chance to to change the world a little bit in some areas, but I'm sure you and, uh, my successor, jesse, are are carrying the torch on that.

Speaker 3: 58:52

So Well, this is uncomfortable. You need to make fun of me in some way. I appreciate that, mark. I think it's again. I know you made a joke about checking the boxes of any Roseville listeners, but I truly do feel that way, that I'm lucky to work in a community that supports what I do and with a leadership team in Roseville that supports each other largely. I think the traditional, you know, old school government ways of protecting your own and not helping each other out that's kind of gone by the wayside and there really is a strong feeling of working together to change the world like you're talking about, and that's an exciting thing to go to work for every day. Yeah, well said.

Speaker 1: 59:34

Well, thank you again, matt. Thanks for coming in and talking to us and turning this Public works nerd podcast into a parks nerd podcast, at least for a a day or for one episode, but uh well, I I appreciate.

Speaker 2: 59:51

Hopefully this is one of maybe a few that we can do and it's been a lot of fun talking parks and thanks to all your listeners for you know all your public works nerds listeners for struggling through this one, but hopefully you're going to gain a bunch of parks nerds listeners. So it's been a lot of fun. Thanks, we'll see.

Speaker 1: 1:00:06

Thank you all right and to all the nerds out there. Thank you for joining us on this episode and we hope you have enjoyed it and found some value. If so, tell your parks and rec nerds to listen into this episode and other episodes. Until Until next time, nerds out.