The Public Works Nerds
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The Public Works Nerds
Season 3 Kicks Off with Mark Ray: Bridges, Bathtub Curves, and Global Public Works Insights.
Marc Culver returns with Season 3 of Public Works Nerds, sharing his career transition to Brooklyn Park City Engineer and welcoming back Mark Ray to discuss his recent professional journey to Australia.
• Mark Ray's Australian Small Bridge Conference experience featured fascinating insights into bridge inspection methods
• Australia uses standardized Level 1-3 inspection terminology creating consistent communication about infrastructure conditions
• The "bathtub curve" concept explains how infrastructure failures happen most often during early construction and end-of-life phases
• Australian engineers utilize sensors, LiDAR, and drones for infrastructure monitoring while emphasizing the human element in interpretation
• Asset management requirements are more ingrained in Australian government agencies than in the US
• "Public works makes normal happen" - infrastructure professionals serve as the "stage crew" for everyone's daily life
• Upcoming Season 3 episodes will cover PFAS, maintenance facilities, and AI in asset management
Please follow the podcast on LinkedIn and send us your episode ideas and feedback!
Show Notes:
Municipal Works Australia
https://municipalworks.com.au/
Institute of Public Works Engineering Australasia https://www.ipwea.org/ipweacommunities/assetmanagement
Welcome to the Public Works Nerds Podcast.
Marc Culver:Welcome to the Public Works Nerds Podcast, a Public Works Podcast of the nerds, for the nerds and by the nerds. I'm your Marc Culver, and welcome back. Welcome to Season 3. Season 3, here we are.
Marc Culver:It's been over seven months since we've dropped an episode for this podcast at the end of season two, which we kind of had a non-ceremonious ending to season two. It just kind of happened, but it did. It happened, and part of that is because I've had some changes since that time. So let's talk about that. And then with with my guest here, mr mark ray, a regular um on this on this podcast, mark ray, public works director for the city of burnsville, he's going to talk about a really cool experience he had recently traveling to australia and I want to know how the heck that happened and, uh, what did, what did you do while you're down there? What did you learn? So we're going to talk a little bit about that, but first I'm actually going to turn this over to Mr Ray, and Mr Ray is going to turn into the podcast host for about 10 minutes here and then I'm going to take it back.
Mark Ray:Well, I mean, I'm the host that's up to me. But I appreciate the optimism.
Marc Culver:I think this is kind of like the legislature. I think we have to have an agreement in place prior to the shift of power that clearly defines the limits of that power. But in any event, but seriously, why don't you take over and just interview me for a few minutes?
Mark Ray:So here we are, mark Season three Yep, is that weird to say?
Marc Culver:It is. I mean, I'm happy to say it, uh and it. You know, part of the weird thing about that is like what actually defines a season, and I think that kind of comes down to I'm probably just going to turn that into like a calendar year thing, but but yeah it's. It's a little weird. I didn't know where this thing was going to go when it started. You know, uh, spack, who I'm internally grateful still for helping me get this thing going. This wouldn't have happened without his spark of an idea and talking to my boss at the time. But yeah, I'm excited and I should say this that well, yes, so season three.
Mark Ray:I'm excited that season three has started. As you reflect back on the critical role that Mike had in this, and how you've grown as a person and you have evolved.
Marc Culver:what has surprised me is how easy it is to like actually do these episodes like once it gets going. You know, I love this like conversational model that that we have in these episodes and we do nerd out about topics, but we do so in a way where we're just talking about it, versus having a script or anything like that. If you know me, you know I'm a bit of a procrastinator. I don't want to say I'm lazy, but I don't do a lot of prep work for stuff and so this makes a little easier.
Marc Culver:It surprised me how easy it's been to have these conversations, put these episodes together, without having to do a lot of work behind the scenes to get it going. But otherwise, it's also surprised me how many people listen to this. I would love for it to be more. I mean, we always want more, always want more. But when I was at PWX in Atlanta in September and you've got people that are reaching out to you to say, hey, are you at PWX or recognizing you just walking by them, I will admit that was one of the most surreal things and horrible, confusion, horrible, uh, confusion, hilarious of like hey, are you involved with the podcast?
Mark Ray:like no, but I, I know the guy who is yeah and uh, yeah, that was that's. That's what I know you'd made to the big time, right right, yeah, the big time, the big time.
Marc Culver:But uh, uh, you know, shout out to daniel green who, who reached out to me, um, and and, as a big listener out in, uh, california, but uh, and and so many others. I mean there's just so many people out there that, uh, uh, I did have like just quick little conversations with, like oh, you're that podcast guy? Yeah, um, so that was surprising and that's, that's fun, and I'm really looking forward to following up with some of those people to do episodes with you know, and find out what they're passionate about, what they want to nerd out about and talk about some public work stuff with them. So that's been good, but, yeah, so one of the things that surprised me since I recorded my last episode is I don't work for Bolt and Mink anymore. I'm really happy to say that I've taken a job as the city engineer for the city of Brooklyn Park in Minnesota since you've last heard from me, and that's been great.
Marc Culver:I realized at some point that my real passion is just in the public sector, you know, actually working for a city, working on projects that I own, so to speak, and that I can really be a steward of for a longer period of time, make decisions on things like that. But uh, so that's been. I'm really just excited to be there and working on some really cool projects Like uh we're um designing a light rail system that goes from downtown Minneapolis into Brooklyn park. Um, we're working with MnDOT on converting an expressway into a freeway. Hopefully that happens. It's a whole nother episode of its own. Um we got 700 acres of land uh to develop in Brooklyn parks. I'm really looking forward to to uh helping that. Uh come along, figure out how we're going to get water main in certain places and roads, and blah, blah, blah. But but yeah, a lot of fun.
Marc Culver:And I just going to take a moment to say uh give you know my appreciation to Bolton Menk. Uh, my former boss Chris Chromy, at Bolton Menk, brought me there. He helped me get this podcast going. He gave me permission to uh spend time on this um and and gave me the resources to to really make it work. And you know, um Tony Solis at uh Manco is my producer. Just, really, I can't say thank you enough to that organization and those people for helping me get this podcast going and also just taking a shot at me. That maybe didn't pay off for them, but helped me realize who I really am and where I really need to be.
Mark Ray:So, anyway, so that's that, I think. With that there's two key things. First of all I think that's a testament to the engineers and consultants we work with in the profession here in Minnesota Whether it be their support for the American Public Works Association chapter, the Minnesota chapter here, or just the profession as a whole is that they're willing to invest in what might be seen as nonttraditional things or try something new for the sake of a profession, and I think that that definitely shouldn't be lost in the transitions that have happened. So again, shout out to Bolton and Mank.
Marc Culver:Yeah, no, I think that's very well said. Actually, Mark, that you know, and Bolton and Mank, and one of the reasons that I went to them to begin with is they have been so innovative in the services they provide and trying out new things and trying to push things, and this Smart Cities thing was something that we tried to push and it partly didn't work out, but partly I also realized who I am and where I need to be. So it was just kind of a combination of that, but still a great organization, some great people there that I'm still obviously working with, uh, and we're doing things at Brooklyn park with them on some stuff. So, um, still still the work. They. They still talk to me, uh, so that's good and I still talk to them.
Mark Ray:So well, I think the second thing that's that really ties in so many different ways. Right, it's just. It's just change, yeah and just um, whether it be being intentional about the personal growth and understanding where you are and seasons may be changing in life, or a professional thing, or employers and employees, you know, as companies looking and exploring new things, and we really need to. I think one of the biggest problems and challenges we have in public works is what we've done has generally been successful, and that in of itself, can be part of the problem, and that in of itself can be.
Marc Culver:Part of the problem is that there might be some hesitation to try to push the envelope a little bit to see where we could go and be different episode with me, which was our very first episode of this podcast, when we're talking about emergency management, that we are risk adverse in public works and in government for a reason Like we can't spend millions of dollars on something on the chance that it might work. You know, I mean, we still kind of do that sometimes and there are private-public partnerships where it's a little more risky, but the agency probably doesn't have as much money invested in that. But, um, it's hard to be really truly innovative when we're spending public dollars. Um, and that's like, like you said, like we're generally successful in what we do and and that's kind of by by design, like we have to be well, I mean, because the clock for us isn't isn't an election cycle.
Mark Ray:Yeah, multiple, it's generations, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it's that's one things I like about, um, the professional writers. We build for generations. But we have to balance that tendency to push the envelope and try new things with sort of what do we know works? Because, um, at the end of the day, it is public dollars and, uh, everything is. If I do this, everything's an opportunity cost. If I do this, I can't do something else. And so how do we responsibly do that? Um, to meet the needs of communities, meet the future needs of communities, um, even though we may not necessarily know exactly what that looks like, for example, if Light Rail shows up, or if you redevelop 700 acres and you have that blank slate to work with, yeah, you know, even coming into Brooklyn Park, and my role is as city engineer.
Marc Culver:But you know, I've got a really great organization that also wants to make use of some of my knowledge and experience as a public works director from Roseville as well, and we have conversations about things that we want to do in the future. You know, we're implementing asset management, we're implementing cartograph and I you know it's like you said you're you look at the resources that you have and it's like, okay, where can we, where and when can we grow this? When can we add this module or that module? When can we do this? We look at using AI for pavement ratings and things like that, and it's like, well, we've only got so much budget. So it's that constant conversation of we want to do more things, we want to do newer things, but we have to prioritize what we have, what we want to do newer things, but we have to prioritize what we have, what we want to do against the dollars that we have too. And the time I mean resources aren't just money, it's staff time too.
Mark Ray:I think a big part of that too is what is the investment going into, the reward coming out right? We're in a world right now where data you can get a ton of data about whatever it is you want but what is the decision you're trying to make and how much information do you need? I think it was colin powell, um in his book, said generally you need about 60 of the information I think is what he said in this book to make the right decision. And so you have this analysis paralysis of well, if, if I had 70% or 80%, the reality is the outcome doesn't necessarily change.
Mark Ray:And so I think a challenge to those in the profession is how do you find that 60%?
Marc Culver:Right. How do you know when you have 60%? Exactly yeah.
Mark Ray:And what is the right 60%. I also want to give a quick shout out and this will tie into our later conversation to David Jenkins, who's the CEO with IPWEA. They've done some amazing work around asset management. We can touch on that later, yeah.
Marc Culver:For anybody listening. What does IPWEA stand for?
Mark Ray:Ooh, that is an amazing acronym, it's the Institute of Public Works Engineering, australasia.
Marc Culver:Ooh.
Mark Ray:So it's basically a bunch of public works and engineering professionals in that Asia, Australia, New Zealand area.
Marc Culver:Cool.
Mark Ray:But I got to meet him while I was down in Australia, but I originally saw a presentation they did actually at PWX, so shout out for anybody going to that. It's a great opportunity to learn more. They are definitely in the leading edge of asset management and some of the courses they've developed and how they're asking the questions to get the right information to inform long-term decision-making. So definitely encourage anybody to dig into some of the resources there.
Marc Culver:Well, let's actually use that as a great segue of what did you do this fall? How?
Mark Ray:did it all play out? I have the honor and privilege of serving on the executive board of the local road research board for the state of Minnesota and, as part of that, in promoting the great work that's happening here with our research efforts and also just learning more of what's happening elsewhere, not only in the US but around the world. We had the opportunity to travel to some conferences, and so I had the privilege of going to Australia in late August for their Small Bridge Conference.
Marc Culver:Small Bridge.
Mark Ray:Conference Small Bridge Conference.
Marc Culver:Now, saying you went to Australia is like saying you went to the United States. So where in Australia did you go?
Mark Ray:Yeah, so it's up in the Brisbane area which is Queensland. So if you're looking at the map of Australia generally, the kind of the northeast quadrant was generally where I was, and because the public works profession is worldwide, I worked with APWA's CEO, scott Grayson, to make some contacts down in Australia. So I literally landed in the Gold Coast, came down the escalator and there was Peter Ali who's the CEO of Municipal Works Australia. Him and then Gavin Goldke with the Scenic Rim Regional Council, which is probably best equated roughly to a county government here, kind of how to think about it.
Mark Ray:We're there. They literally picked me up, we grabbed my bags, jumped in their truck, jumped in Gavin's truck and went out, and just, we had lunch. And then toured the scenic room area and just, they took me to a timber bridge that their staff had just rebuilt in-house. We looked at some landslide issues on some of the more mountainous areas and talked about how storms and weather patterns and power impact that area, and it was just so fascinating to see it. And then so you landed.
Mark Ray:I'm sorry, you landed in so I flew into sydney and then flew up to the gold coast, okay, and walked off. They picked me up and and and so like.
Marc Culver:How remote is the Gold Coast?
Mark Ray:It's not Okay, it's.
Marc Culver:Well, when you like, you're talking about landslides and stuff like that.
Mark Ray:I was like I'm picturing this. We started at the ocean and then kind of drove up into the mountains from there, so it got more remote, but it was, you know.
Marc Culver:Australia has mountains. I didn't, I didn't know.
Mark Ray:I knew.
Marc Culver:New Zealand did.
Mark Ray:Yeah, zealand did. Yeah, but we know we're not talking like snow-covered mountains. Yeah, we're talking, you know, west virginia kind of yeah yeah, yeah, um, but west virginia.
Marc Culver:There you go. Okay, this is the nerds podcast, it's not the acapella. Yeah, we just lost uh 75 of our listeners there, but anyway, I'm just kidding.
Mark Ray:um, and so some fascinating things. They were talking about how they have to source local wood. Right, because, and this makes total sense when you talk about it local wood's accustomed to climate and so if they were to outsource wood from other parts of the country, it doesn't change seasonally, like the wood, and so you put it in a bridge that's, you know, tightened with, like turnbuckles. All of a sudden you have movements you wouldn't necessarily anticipate. So just a fascinating totally makes sense, not something that I necessarily, you know, interact with on a daily basis.
Marc Culver:You know. So this timber bridge that they showed you, that they built in-house. What was the span?
Mark Ray:Oh it was. It was like a probably a 40 foot bridge. It wasn't big. I think it connected to three properties, but one of them ran more of a commercial operation out of it. So um, it wasn't just two residential properties. You know some cars a day. I think it was under a hundred vehicles a day, but um definitely had to carry some significant weight on it.
Marc Culver:That's cool. Um what kind of bridge was it?
Mark Ray:Just a normal timber bridge, okay, bridge. Was it just a normal timber bridge? Okay? Um. Then we drove by another one. They just redone um that had some localized flooding. It's like they'd raised it up or made a wider um flow through there for the water. And there's fascinating things like yes, I realize they drive on the other side of the road, but I found myself wondering could you compare a left turn crash in the United States to a right-turn crash in Australia, and how would that compare?
Marc Culver:Right.
Mark Ray:No left. I'm just kidding. Yeah, ha ha, ha ha. We just lost that. Laugh 25% of listeners. So that was just a fascinating. As we were driving around, I just found myself thinking about is it really a comparison? Or like how would roundabout crashes compare? Right, because yes, it's the same, but it's also different. So, and I don't know how you'd prove one way or the other I mean traffic volumes and all that stuff but it's just a fascinating way of trying to think about where are the comparisons and where are things different, just strictly based on where you're sitting in a vehicle.
Marc Culver:What are the from your and you're a recovering traffic engineer like me what were some of the things that really stood out to you as far as being different from a traffic engineering perspective?
Mark Ray:Well, the first one, we were driving on the highway and they had wood barricades across a lane that they had closed. Huh, and I was like, wow, that's would not have anticipated that one yeah um, I think also some of the signage, and I can't remember certain examples, right, but speed limits, I think, are, you know, black lettering inside a red circle okay um and just how we communicate with the public and how we have this standard for the us and it's different in other countries what was, and you've been to europe, right?
Marc Culver:uh, not a ton, okay, but I'm, I'm, I'm imagining that australia signage and striping and that is probably more in line with europe yeah than it is the US. Yeah, yeah.
Mark Ray:And so it's just more one of those. Should we think about something differently?
Marc Culver:Yeah.
Mark Ray:Or what is something as simple as a speed limit. Right, we say speed limit is a square sign, but do black letters in a red circle? Does that communicate something, right, right, right, is it more effective? Right, somehow, someway wear a sign, but but do black letters in a red circle? Does that communicate something right?
Marc Culver:right, right, is it more effective? Right, somehow, some way, exactly right, I always. I also found it really interesting driving around europe that they don't use yellow lines like we do. You know, like all their lines are white. You know they don't, and for me it'd be like super confusing, like where am I supposed to be right?
Mark Ray:right my life into my own hands. Is that the?
Marc Culver:same in Australia.
Mark Ray:Yeah, I was trying to look that up. I believe that is the case. Yeah, yeah.
Marc Culver:I'm, I'm, I'm asking him questions I didn't prep him for so. That's okay, we we're ad-libbing this um, so talk a little bit more about I have the video yeah there's a video on the highway right. We see the metal frames of wood yeah, and, and on the left side is a solid white line right, like how am I supposed to know which side I'm, which way I'm supposed to be driving?
Mark Ray:here, don't worry, just drive faster.
Marc Culver:Just drive faster just get off the road quicker. So talk a little bit more about some of the things you learned in Australia.
Mark Ray:Yeah, so the small bridge conference itself. I kind of did more of the asset manager track. That's just fascinating to me and how they do that and some of the things they talked about that really were amazing was when they do inspections of whatever I'm going to go inspect, let's say a culvert, they actually subdivide that right. So what's a level one inspection would just be like an annual routine inspection Happens on a fixed base, generally just visual.
Marc Culver:Mm-hmm.
Mark Ray:That goes up to.
Marc Culver:And they do that annually for all of theirs. No, it depends. It depends on what it is.
Mark Ray:Yeah, yeah, but they have this standard language of I did a level one inspection, or the standard language of I did a level one inspection or I did a level two, which um would be a more detailed, has some measurements for like uh, if there's shift or whatever. Um really would feed into kind of more informing, maintenance stuff. Then a level three would be really full-on an engineering investigations to try to figure out you know what's happening with the scenario. But it was interesting to hear about just something as simple as an investigation and having a common terminology for what that means and how we think about that and what do we do with that information.
Marc Culver:Well, we're supposed to have that in the US. You know, we've got our and I should know more about this now that I'm back in this role and I actually have some bridges in my system that we're supposed to be inspecting in that but you know, it's it's it's probably very like anything else or like our incident command system. You know where there's the terminology and and if you're in it, you know it, you remember it, and if you're not in and it's like, yeah, I kind of vaguely recall there's a term for that.
Marc Culver:Amazing donuts in's, some amazing donuts in that cloud, right right you know, and unfortunately, just because of how we handle bridge inspections and that on the local basis we don't always have dedicated staff, that's kind of what it is Like you're opening the manual up every so often just to try to refresh things.
Mark Ray:But in any event, yeah, so keep going with that and then also the common things, right, for example, we know that the wear and tear in our roads, loads on the roads are higher than probably what they were originally designed for in some scenarios, um and so. So what does that mean for deformation long term, for um, future maintenance needs? Also codes, designs have changed over time, and so, as we think about the infrastructure that's out there, not only is it hey, replacing what's there, but it's how are we keeping in mind conditions have changed, yeah, and planning for that. We go in and impact things. Uh, one of the this is a hilarious term, it's called the bathtub curb that they talked about.
Marc Culver:Yeah, which is I saw that and like kind of jumped out at me, yeah, but so it's a bathtub or a?
Mark Ray:u, but really what it says, your failure rates are the highest at, basically, infant mortality. So very early in a project under construction, right you think about false work, failing and stuff and then towards the end of life as things wear out, but risk actually drops during the normal use of the life.
Marc Culver:Which makes sense, which makes total sense.
Mark Ray:Yeah, absolutely. I just had never like. When you hear it, you're like well, yeah, that makes sense.
Marc Culver:Right.
Marc Culver:But until it's actually pointed out in those very basic terms, I was like I hadn't really thought about it that way, yeah, and not having taken the class, but I would imagine part of the issue there is accurately predicting that end of life when that risk starts to really curve back up. You're not always aware of that, because you may not always understand what the life cycle of your bridge is or that it is starting to fail just because of age. That's a really good way to think about. It is really increasing awareness of when that curve starts to go back up again. Being aware of that.
Mark Ray:Well, the question then. So the next thing is how do you monitor for that? Real-time sensors on bridges to collect data on movements and loads and then try to use that to inform? Hey, here's what we should monitor, or hey, this bridge is getting close to being replaced, and so again, collecting the right data to inform decision-making long-term.
Marc Culver:I wonder at what scale that is an effective know an effective and economical thing to do. You know, like the timber bridge you talked about that's got a 40-foot span or something you know that's serving three driveways. Would it ever be economically feasible to put sensors on a bridge like that? You know.
Mark Ray:Or in the bridge.
Marc Culver:Or in the bridge right.
Mark Ray:So I definitely wonder about that. And the reality is, if your bridge is going to be 60, 100 years old, how are you powering that sensor?
Marc Culver:Yeah, how are you? Yeah, that's a good point.
Mark Ray:The other big thing right is they don't have snow in Australia, in the area I was, and so you don't have salt.
Marc Culver:Yeah.
Mark Ray:And so from a corrosive standpoint.
Marc Culver:It's yeah, and so from a corrosive standpoint it's going to last longer, absolutely, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's cool, that's I. I love that just sometimes it's so uh helpful and enlightening to just hear somebody talk about something in a from a different perspective 100 and you know, just a different set of experiences, and it's kind of this aha moment of, yeah, that that makes sense.
Mark Ray:We should, you know, I really kind of think about that and one of the one of the funny ones they had was they had sensors on a bridge to measure weight. Then they had a camera photoing the vehicle like our mobile um, we're not mobile, it's like fixed based way stations, right. And so what they would do is they would have vehicles come across, they'd have the the read of the weight. They'd also capture the speed and then have a photo of the vehicle and then use that to watch the deformation in the road as they went across yeah um.
Mark Ray:That was fascinating for a variety of reasons from just the integration of. I have speed data on vehicles, I have weight information, oh, and I'm trying to link this back to maintenance information right.
Mark Ray:Where we might link weight with enforcement, speed with enforcement, you know, kind of jump into separate buckets. It was very much kind of a a whole picture. And they also said in this you know, you have to keep that whole, that whole thing simple, that, as you monitor all these trucks or whatever, it is a tool, but it is not the be all and all right. You still have to use judgment and thoughts on, okay, what do we have this data and how are we going to use it?
Marc Culver:yeah, cool, um, it sounds like it. When you were describing that it, I just had images of being in the basement of uh, kaufman hall and, uh, you know, five levels, six levels down or whatever, in a structures lab or something, watching some things, that's yeah, well, I definitely encourage your listeners to go to a real university where they don't lock your engineering students in the basement university of wisconsin.
Mark Ray:Madison would definitely be an option.
Marc Culver:There is that where you went, yeah god, I just recorded another episode with with somebody who was a badger, and I just shake my head to replace their engineering hall yeah, up with that basement bunker vibe yep um, we're talking about the university of minnesota.
Marc Culver:Their civil engineering department is in a it's a pretty. I mean, it's a it's. It's a cool building, it's, you know, architecturally very interesting. But instead of going up, it goes down into the ground. Uh, several floors. I guess that's fair yeah, when you know we're civil engineers, we're just being locked away in a basement, right, yeah?
Mark Ray:I think the other thing too with this and it ties back to what you said about just inspecting bridges. They talked about using lidar drones, and each type has their own strengths and drawbacks and you really need to think about what is the outcome you want and then selecting the right tool for it and not just saying, hey, this is a fancy new, whatever, let's do it, because you may not actually get the information you want. Or even they touched on just integrating it with your existing systems, where if you capture this whole new set of information but you have no way to integrate it with the information you already have, what does that mean?
Mark Ray:yeah um, one of these type of here is look my notes that drones really struggle to detect and measure hairline cracks in steel and concrete, um, and obviously any of that stuff. You can't see non-visual issues and so just you know things to keep in mind as you're selecting a platform to gather information yeah, it's.
Marc Culver:It's uh interesting to hear this about Australia and what they're doing there. And I know, like when you know, if you didn't know, we had a huge, big bridge collapse here in Minneapolis in 2007. And when they rebuilt that, I know they built that with a bunch of those in-bridge sensors and that to monitor a lot of the same things and that to monitor a lot of the same things. And I think when they built the St Croix Bridge across the St Croix River between Minnesota and Wisconsin, they also did, I think, similar things. So you know, we're seeing it more and more in these larger bridges for this exact reason is just so you can understand that bathtub curve. When is that happening? When is that end of life happening?
Mark Ray:Well, and what are good? Sources of data help make those decisions too. Um, I love this quote. I've heard it all over. You know all models are wrong, but some are useful, and that was one of the things. That kind of stresses. As you collect all this data, you you can't take the person and the analysis out of it, right, ai, all you know. You you can heavy process stuff, but if you don't understand what's going into the system, the coming out could be a problem.
Marc Culver:Yeah, yeah, that's that garbage in garbage out but I like that sound bite, so to speak, you know then the scary part of the presentation I watched.
Mark Ray:I went to a session on bridge fires and they talked about how bridges that are over 50 years old are more vulnerable to fire, and then fires are occurring on bridges at a higher chance than tunnels, and I think that goes back to just restrictions on what you can take into tunnels.
Mark Ray:Right, for that very reason, but yeah, but the part that really made me think was obviously PVCs and plastics burn Right. So if you look, if you think about the drainage systems that are in bridges, you know fires get into those systems. What does that mean? How do you put it out? Have you now basically compromised the bridge from the inside right?
Mark Ray:you have a pvc that's been compromised, um, and I took that one step further. My mind is okay. You know, we, we use liners for sanitary sewer stormwater, we use pvc for, or hdpe for, um, for piping underground. If something were to get happen and hopefully it doesn't, because we've all done really good at reducing, I and I but if something were to get in there and catch on fire, I get it would be very hot, right, because it's high plastic. But if it were to happen, what does that mean?
Mark Ray:um and that was a very huh, make you think kind of moment Right right. What would happen?
Marc Culver:Yeah, and it all depends on the environment. You're in 100%, you know, like if you're in the middle, if it's in cast in the middle of a bridge, that's a little different than.
Mark Ray:You know what's leaked, what's burning the aperture, all that jazz, but it was one of those cascading things they wouldn't necessarily have thought about. So, yeah, so two-day conference, and then I went back to Sydney my brother actually lives in Sydney and then had the opportunity to meet up with again David Jenkins and then Jonathan Jones, both IPWA. I met with them for lunch and just learned more about all the amazing things they've done with asset management and trying to help me prepare my mind to wander more into that space.
Marc Culver:And I think asset management is much more baked in in Australia into government agencies and that than it is here. Do you know?
Mark Ray:some of the details of that. They have some requirements on how you track stuff, and I think it's. It's a broad brush with how that's done, but it's a little more ingrained in hey, okay, when this comes up for replacement. Have you already been thinking about that since it started? Right?
Marc Culver:And and and about that since it started Right, and I know Michigan has and we've talked about this before episode with Russ Mathis talking about like an asset management kind of group here in Minnesota or some potential requirements, funding that if you're not, if you're not reporting your CIP, and some condition monitoring that you may not be eligible for for some some state funding and such. And so I think that's a really good kind of way to do. It is, you know, put some some onus and some some accountability, I guess, on the agency to make sure that they know that they are planning for an end of life, you know yeah.
Mark Ray:It's always the carrot and the stick right, so it's not going to get easier. I think it's pretty clear that all agencies of government have to make some hard decisions on what does the future look like? What can we afford to do, right? What do we want to do? What can we afford to do, and then what can we afford to maintain long-term? Yeah, yeah, and there are certain things that you kind. What do we want to do, what can we afford to do, and then what can we?
Marc Culver:afford to maintain long-term. Yeah, and there are certain things that you kind of have to maintain. Like you know, if you're supplying water to a community, well, you kind of need to make sure that your water treatment facility is is going to operate for a long period of time, that you know how to rehabilitate that when you need to, that your pipes are are period of time, that you know how to rehabilitate that when you need to, that your pipes are going to be in good shape for a period of time. You have pumps that work, and this, that and the other.
Mark Ray:But even more than that, it's also telling the story of it's not just drinking water right, it's public safety for fire suppression.
Mark Ray:That's true, it's public health, for washing your hands and basic cleanliness, and so water is life right. It's essential to all of that and I think to an extent sometimes we just kind of choke it down to oh it's drinking water, it's really not. It's really across all these different kind of critical infrastructure sectors of public health and public safety, and obviously just the water part of it. And how do we help tell that story to to the public, to our elected officials, and, quite frankly, I would submit to you, how do we help them take pride in that stuff?
Mark Ray:yeah, because it's generally out of sight, out of mind yeah, yeah, well, well say, your say your soundbite well, yeah, so public works makes normal happen that's right and and the way I sort of articulate this is we are like the stage crew for everybody's life.
Marc Culver:Yeah.
Mark Ray:Right, they're on, the people are on stage living their life, but there are people behind the scenes making that happen that they may or may not even know about, and so trying to create that whole ecosystem, bring light to it, I think, is ultimately where we're going to have to go as a profession, because what we do is really cool and it's also generally out of sight out of mind Until something goes wrong, and I don't want to be flipping about, taking it for granted as if people don't care, but if it's always there, it's like the speed limit sign that nobody pays attention to because it's always there and I'm going to drive when I feel comfortable on that street right.
Mark Ray:It's just kind of part of the churn of life, yeah.
Marc Culver:This has been your annual reminder. I feel like we've done this. Whenever we record an episode with Mr Ray here, we get into that conversation about how we are in the background, but we need to be more out in front and advocating for what we need resources and people and monies and and and things, but that we do make normal happen. So, like I said, feel free to use that term.
Mark Ray:Yeah, make normal happen. Yeah, please capitalize.
Marc Culver:I use it a lot and I usually I'm usually pretty good at crediting Mr Ray.
Mark Ray:Please make sure you capitalize every letter in that you can also use terms like build with maintenance in mind.
Marc Culver:Yeah.
Mark Ray:Or we are the stage crew to your life. I think those are all terms that I hope people can identify with. I'm actually trying to work with Burnsville High School to go in and talk with their drama crew and the people on stage crew to talk about careers in public works, because I think that's a group that may not have any idea what we do, but there's a lot of parallels.
Marc Culver:Yeah, I agree, but there's a lot of parallels, yeah, so I agree.
Mark Ray:I agree that lined up.
Marc Culver:Well, hey, this has been great. It's been kind of a quick episode and just a really quick review of of this amazing trip you got to take out to Australia and I'm extremely jealous. I got to figure out how to get in there.
Mark Ray:Well, you got to get some listeners in Australia to bring you down there you go, do a show there you go, or sponsors.
Marc Culver:If you're listening in Australia, let me know.
Mark Ray:If you're interested in sponsoring this amazing podcast, also let them know.
Marc Culver:I'll take that.
Mark Ray:You just take a drink. I got you covered, I'll take that.
Marc Culver:So, just as we conclude here, I just want to give you know this is our first episode of season three. I just want to give a little bit of a preview of what I've got planned, what's coming up here. Up here I actually just recorded an episode on PFAS and I have a feeling we're going to be doing a couple of episodes on that very important topic. That's one of those really nerdy topics. We get into some of the chemistry in that and so hopefully that's interesting. You guys enjoy nerding out on that topic, did a follow-up episode with Nick Egger from the city of Rosemont on his maintenance facility that they just moved into Planning on talking with one of the big asset management companies talking about what's the future of asset management and how are they going to plan on using and incorporating AI into that product and helping agencies manage their assets. Yeah, and others episodes as I get them organized and such.
Mark Ray:That said, listeners, if you have ideas, don't hesitate to reach out right.
Marc Culver:Exactly, exactly, Always, always interested in topic ideas. If you're really passionate about something and you want to talk about it, if you want to nerd out about it, shoot me an email or put a comment somewhere. Let me know and we'll connect through LinkedIn and we'll figure it out. We'll get through LinkedIn and we'll figure it out. We'll get you on. You'll probably see us doing a lot of remote episodes as I try to get more and more national guests going as well and international.
Marc Culver:And hopefully, international right. Maybe I should talk to Mr Jenkins. I think that would be great. I think that would be very interesting. I would love to hear more about how Australia does require some of this asset management and how they use a carrot.
Mark Ray:Well, and the resources they've developed really to help deliver and execute on that.
Marc Culver:Yep, cool. Well, hey, thanks for joining us, mark, on this kickoff episode to Season 3.
Mark Ray:I'm sure we'll have you back. Congratulations, Season 3. What episode number are we at?
Marc Culver:Oh God, why'd you have to ask me that right now? I think we're on 32 or 33 or something. I should have looked at that.
Mark Ray:What has been the most surprising thing? Let's wrap this up. Season three. Most surprising thing doing podcasts. Is it the technology needed? I mean now that I'm doing this a little bit more.
Marc Culver:is it the technology? Well, I mean, you know, having having having now that I'm doing this a little bit more on my own, and having had to procure some equipment, uh, shout out to another former guest, michael Thompson, who was was able to help me get a couple of really nice microphones through a connection he had, um, but you know, buying a, know, buying a, an audio mux, uh, all the cabling to to make it work, uh, the microphones themselves, uh, just some of the technical issues. And you're, you're going to hear one of those technical issues on the, the episode with nick egger, um it. You, you don't realize how much uh work goes into a production that really sounds and looks good, and I had, you know, I was really fortunate to have an awesome producer in 20 solas and boltman mink that had all that equipment and set it up and knew how, what they were doing, and now I'm kind of learning how to do that on my own, um, but uh, it's it, I'm in, I'm kind of a techie guy and and so I like to.
Mark Ray:In other news, you're also starting a part-time gig as a DJ, right Right.
Marc Culver:That, that, uh, that'll maybe be the be the next thing. Yeah, I, I cause I got the stuff Absolutely. But hey, thanks again, mark for joining. I'm just trying to think what dj name name would be right now. Uh, well, I'm uh roundabout. Uh, mp hammer man, mark culver, you know, mc mc, uh, mc pub. No, no, we'll work on that we'll, we'll take, we'll take suggestions we're open to suggestions on play mark.
Marc Culver:Thanks for having me yeah, thank you as always. Um and uh listeners. Thanks as always for listening and joining us. Follow the podcast on LinkedIn Primarily. We're going to try to get on some other social media platforms, but on LinkedIn in particular. We would love if you could like some of the posts about these episodes. Comment on that. Share them. Yeah, share them, because it really does help spread the word and get it out in front of more people as we try to grow this audience and again, send us those episode ideas. Let me know you're out there, let me know you're listening what you like and what you don't like.
Mark Ray:I can tell you he very much appreciates that. It warms the heart, yeah.
Marc Culver:All right, thanks, everybody Nerds out.
