Inside IALR

Registered Apprenticeship Best Practices and Lessons Learned

• Institute for Advanced Learning and Research

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Registered apprenticeships pair paid, hands-on work with classroom lessons to grow dependable talent. In this Inside IALR episode, host Caleb Ayers talks with:

  • Natori Neal – Apprenticeship Coordinator, IALR’s EXTRA program
  • Jenny Spitzer – Co-owner, Spitzer Inc. (electrical contractors)
  • Josh Arnold – Master Electrician and lead instructor at Spitzer
  • Jacob Oakes – Second-year electrical apprentice

They share insights on:

  • How a registered apprenticeship is structured, from day-one wages to a journeyman credential
  • Building curriculum around the employer’s real work 
  • Why covering tuition and books helps apprentices focus and stay
  • Choosing the right mentors 
  • Starting with small cohorts to emphasize quality over head-count
  • Utilizing the free support from IALR’s EXTRA program for designing, funding and sustaining apprenticeship programs

The Institute for Advanced Learning and Research serves as a regional catalyst for economic transformation in Southern Virginia. Our services, programs and offerings are diverse, impactful and far reaching.

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Caleb Ayers:

Welcome to another episode of Inside IALR. Thanks for joining us. So today we're here to talk about apprenticeships and kind of some success stories, lessons learned, lessons being learned, best practices for running effective apprenticeship programs. So first I'm going to turn it over to. We have four guests today and I will let each of you all introduce yourselves.

Natori Neal:

I'm Notori Neal, the Apprenticeship Coordinator too here at the Institute for Advanced Learning and Research, and I basically coordinate the Institute's Expanding Talent through Registered Apprenticeship Program, or EXTRA for short.

Jenny Spitzer:

I'm Jenny Spitzer. I'm part owner of Spitzer Incorporated. We're electrical contractors in Virginia and North Carolina.

Josh Arnold:

I'm Josh Arnold and I am the lead teacher for our program for our electrical apprenticeship.

Jacob Oakes:

I'm Jacob Oaks and I'm the apprentice for Spitzer Electric.

Caleb Ayers:

Awesome. Well, thank you guys all for being here today. Really appreciate that. So first, I mean, we'll get the basics out of the way. Apprenticeships, notori, I'll let you take this one. Apprenticeships are a very successful model for bringing on new employees, so it's a, you know, sort of talent retention and recruitment tool. So, notori, tell us a little bit about kind of what is the structure, generally speaking, of an apprenticeship program.

Natori Neal:

Absolutely so.

Natori Neal:

Apprenticeship basically combines on-the-job training that's the hands-on learning that apprentices get you know, from clocking in and clocking out to work every day, and you know working in the field if they're outside, and that sort of thing.

Natori Neal:

So it's on-the-job training combined with mentorship Mentors are usually mentoring apprentices at a one-to to one ratio and then related technical instruction, which is a fancy way of saying curriculum, classroom instruction, the education that basically explains you know the why behind the what that they're doing on the job on a day to day basis. Then that is also combined with wages. So apprentices are paid employees from day one and as they gain skills, their employer identifies the frequency and the amount of wage increases that they get for skills attainment until they reach what we call their journey worker status or their experience worker status, when they complete a registered apprenticeship program. Completion is marked by successful completion of on-the-job training and related technical instruction. And then there is that nationally recognized credential at the end of it. So they do get the nationally recognized credential and journey worker card in Virginia for completing a registered apprenticeship program.

Caleb Ayers:

Awesome. So yeah, obviously you know you're talking about that mix of on the job training and education kind of going together and the apprentice or employee being paid for both of those things. Jenny, tell me a little bit about Spitzer, kind of what you all do first, and then how you all landed on the need for an apprenticeship program for your organization.

Jenny Spitzer:

Okay, so we started in March of 2009. And over the years we slowly grew, hiring people in the community. Some had electrical backgrounds, some did not, and what we found was we were training people from the ground up to begin with, but we had no way at a state level for them to recognize, you know, that they had the skill set to sit for a test until they had, basically, I think it's 10 years. They have to work, you know, for someone before they can test if they don't have the education piece. And so you know, flash forward to 2022, 2020, I think I've met with notori in 22 um and I said look, what can I do to get the education piece that the state recognizes? How does this work? She was great. She met with me for like an hour and a half, two hours, and then I started looking into apprenticeship.

Jenny Spitzer:

I didn't pull the trigger right away because I really wanted to get the education piece right and I researched lots of different options for education and we landed on the education piece going through a company called NCCER, which is kind of the model used for the trades, and they've been in. Nccer has been around their curriculum for 26 or 7 years now. They've been in NCCER, has been around their curriculum for 26 or seven years now. They're amazing curriculum, and so once I had the curriculum piece in place that I wanted to use, I went back to Notori and we got all the paperwork in place and we started the program. And then Jacob came on, I believe in June of 23. And so he's coming up in two weeks. You'll be here two years and um. That's how we kind of got the ball rolling.

Caleb Ayers:

We got certified, josh got certified to teach the curriculum, um, to test everyone, and so far, so good so you all are doing all of the related technical instruction in-house with the curriculum from okay, so, josh, you're in charge of teaching.

Josh Arnold:

Yeah, so I do all the classroom as well as some of the related initial hands-on skills and skill testing, and then I also work with them all of our apprentices, which now will be up to hopefully four soon and work with them out in the field as well, as well as helping them pair with some of the other guys to have some mentoring. We have different people who really stand out in different areas of the field who do better. You know, some are better and stronger with residential work, Some are better and stronger with the commercial work generators, solar panels, different things like that. Everybody has a little bit varied experience. Most of the other guys are all coming up or have far exceeded 10 years in the field, and so they have different backgrounds and it really helps with getting them a different experience when they're out there working with the other guys.

Caleb Ayers:

And Jacob for you. How did you end up here?

Jacob Oakes:

So back in high school I wasn't exactly sure what I wanted to do. I was more creative on what I wanted to do. I was more creative on what I like doing and I talked to a relative of mine on, like film editing. That's something I was really interested in and he said it was not a stable job and that I should not do it. And so I was like, well, there goes all my plans and I was kind of just trying to figure it out. Take it slow. My dad came up to me and was like, have you ever considered a trade? He felt like it would be better for me because I don't really like sitting in an office area, and so I started kind of looking into that, looking into different ones, which one I thought would work best for me, and I came across Electrical. I was like like I'll do electrical. And then I found them through my brother who's in a. What would you?

Jenny Spitzer:

describe. His brother and I are in the same business group okay, so I heard about them through that.

Jacob Oakes:

That's kind of how it all worked out for me.

Caleb Ayers:

That's awesome. And, jenny, I want to go back to what you said too. So basically, you're saying that a lot of the training that you all were doing, you were basically training people from the ground up, but there was just no way to like officially recognize that that training was happening, so that this was a way for for to make sure that your employees had those credentials, had those recognitions of their skills.

Jenny Spitzer:

Correct. The need was very strong. There were not. We did not find adequate education in our area for what we do. We are electrical contractors, you know. We do residential, we do commercial, we do solar, we do generators. But we've done solar since, you know, before 09, my husband ran the electrical side of my dad's contracting company before we went out on our own. It's not like we're just jumped on the solar bandwagon, you know what I mean. Like same thing with the other stuff. We've been doing generators 10, 15 years. I mean it's been, it's been pretty much the whole time. It's not something like oh, we just recently jumped on the generator bandwagon.

Jenny Spitzer:

This is something that we do and we believe firmly in education. Like if you don't know, you don't grow, and so we send our guys to school to recertify on things all the time. Like we, we strongly believe in the education piece. Um, because you don't want to get stagnant in what you do, there's always new technology period and so if we can't find we were getting students, either one out of high school, out of college, out of factories, people saying I want to try something different and they didn't have basic skill sets to work in the trades, whether it's reading a ruler or just basic math, like doing fractional math, which is you're doing the trades all the time, and that was a big problem. So then it was like I need something that really starts from the very basic of basics and continues all the way up through theoretical math, motor controls.

Jenny Spitzer:

I think Jacob just did a unit that had a lot of calculus with motor controls. I think Jacob just did a unit that had a lot of calculus with motor controls and things like that. But it's really hard to take somebody in the field who doesn't have the fundamentals. And you can tell someone to pull a wire from here to there but if they're not understanding what they're doing or why they're doing it, that's a problem. So having the education piece to start from the beginning and go all the way through really helps them to solidify it when they get the on-the-job training part and they see it all come together, why it works, the way that they were taught. So that was really huge for us us.

Caleb Ayers:

Notori. You mentioned Jenny, you had mentioned, you know, meeting with Notori, the support provided. Give a quick rundown of the Extra program and kind of the resources and support that you all provide for organizations across all of Southern Virginia and launching apprenticeship programs.

Natori Neal:

Absolutely so. Extra is very much informed by employers. A lot of people have the initial misconception that Extra is the apprenticeship program and maintain and administer their apprenticeship programs and even, you know, expanding that, scaling that to size, and so we do things such as you know. When we met with Jenny, or I met with Jenny for the first time, we have that discussion. You know this is what apprenticeship is. Apprenticeship is not an internship. Although internship is a great work-based learning model as well, apprenticeship is not an internship and those terms aren't used interchangeably. So this is what apprenticeship is. These are your responsibilities as an employer.

Natori Neal:

I am very passionate about working with employers to ensure that the program is developed to meet their needs. Their on-the-job training is formulated and then the on-the-job training needs inform the related technical instruction and the employer's other needs. You know travel, distance and you know cost and that sort of thing all play a role in the development of their program. And so we have those discussions, their needs discussions, and then we move on to program development. In that development phase the employer is there the entire time, being an active participant in what's needed. I just kind of handle the management of the project and ensuring that partners are involved at the right time in order not to overwhelm the employers if the employer needs resources. As far as related technical instruction, where are all the possible RTI or where can you get all of the related technical instruction in this area? You can do it in-house yourself, like the Spitzers, you can get it from a community college, you can source it from a university or even an online training provider here in Virginia. So there are a lot of options and being transparent is what really helps employers and you know myself in that process.

Natori Neal:

Not only am I, you know, focusing on getting them their program developed. I want to learn more about their company and seeing where those needs are. You know, in the future is there room to expand with solar being as big as it is now? You know, in the future, spitzer could decide, hey, we're going to have something more, so along the lines with energy. So having that room for conversation, also in working with employers and, you know, developing those programs, just the feedback is essential during all phases, even after the program is developed. You know Jenny might come to me and say, hey, tori, is there funding available for this or is there resources available to help me get connected with this population of individuals Because we want to offer opportunities to high school students. How can I get in? Offer opportunities to high school students? How can I get in front of those high school students? So just being very responsive, very proactive and then also listening and being transparent helps a lot when working with employers to develop, register and then maintain those relationships and maintaining the success of their programs.

Jenny Spitzer:

Yeah, I have her on speed dial. Literally True, true story, absolutely relationship and maintaining the success of their programs.

Natori Neal:

Yeah, I have her on speed dial.

Caleb Ayers:

Literally True story? Absolutely, yeah, and I love the. You know the variety of support that Extra provides. You know it's that. You know helping develop the program itself, helping maintain the program. You know support with recruitment, I know there's. You know there's grants involved for salary for the helping find those related technical instruction opportunities, as you said. So it's definitely a lot of different ways that companies can be supported by the extra program. I kind of want to switch gears a little bit and just talk about generally in the room what are some of the, I guess, best practices that you all see for apprenticeship programs from your perspective. So I mean, obviously, notori, you're working with companies all over the region, so you're going to have the more. I would imagine you would have more broad analysis to that, whereas Jenny, I mean you're seeing it from what have we seen in our company? And I mean Jacob, you're saying what have I seen in my experience. So I mean I want to hear from all of you of kind of what do you think are the?

Jenny Spitzer:

I mean I want to hear from all of you of kind of what do you think are the I guess the you know best practices or keys to a successful apprenticeship. So this is new, so we're still I mean, we're two years in and we're still kind of learning what some of the best practices are how to get in front of the right people, the right age group, people who are curious about it but don't understand what electrical is or what the apprenticeship program involves. People who have worked other jobs and just said I don't want to sit at a desk all day. So for us it's trying to talk to different people in different avenues. I do speak at a business group every single week and I speak with them and ask them to spread the word. I have talked to homeschoolers. I have went in front of high schoolers, um, and then I reach out to Notori to help me kind of broaden that um, just to bring people in the door and just to kind of do a greater education of what we do and why we do it this way. I'm open to learning anything. I want a small learning curve on this. You know what I mean. There are going to be things that we're going to learn along the way and as simply and as easily as we can learn it, that would be great.

Jenny Spitzer:

I rely heavily on her. So if I have questions, if I get paperwork or I get something and I don't understand it, I'm like, tori, am I reading this right? Am I seeing this correct? And there have been times when she and I have come across something that's just not whether it's a grant or whether it's whatever tax credits, and I'm like, okay, am I reading this correct? And she's been able to help me navigate those waters. As far as with Jacob and Josh, I just have to say, josh, kudos, thank you very much. I'm like I'm so grateful that he took on the role of the education piece and I'm just like, whatever you need, tell me, we'll get it there to.

Jenny Spitzer:

To make things easier, I try to do the same for Jacob and all the apprentices. The door's open. I want you guys to talk to us. I want it to be open communication. I want you guys to feel comfortable to talk to Josh or to myself or to anybody, and I think if we keep the communication open, I think we'll do well. We really try to promote quality over quantity. There's a reason we don't have 20 apprentices right now. I want it to be slow growth, because I want them to really understand and learn and that's a that's a big one for me and I want, at the end of this, I want Jacob to be a craftsman, not just an apprentice. You know, I want him to come out of it as a master electrician and I want him to be a craftsman at what he does.

Caleb Ayers:

And how long is y'all's apprenticeship program? Last Four years, four years, okay, and obviously at the end of that those apprentices are just regular employees.

Jenny Spitzer:

Yes, so I mean, ultimately, one of the reasons I get try to get in front of the high schoolers and try to get in front of colleges is because it is a four year thing. It is a different outlet than a college or a university. But I'm like, if you come in, you know 18 years old, you know 22, 23, 24,. I want the ability to give you a truck, a set of keys, a plan and say run this job, you're licensed, right. We've invested four years to getting you to this point and you know your wages are paid along the way. So we're invested in you, hoping you invest back in us and help our company to grow.

Josh Arnold:

I would say one of the biggest things for people either looking at starting their own apprenticeship program or those who are looking to get into apprenticeship program if you're going into the company to even start talking about it, seeing what their curriculum is and what it's based around. Curriculum is and what it's based around. We use a nationally recognized one that's NCCER. That not only is providing the core curriculum and helpful other things, they have books that are being put out for each of the modules and everything, so you actually have a true textbook. You have review questions, you have module tests, you have hands-on exercises, you have hands-on testing to make sure that not only have you got the concept down but you're able to start developing skills to actually use your hands and do it and make sure that you truly understand. You don't get partway through and go yeah, I don't understand why I'm doing this, I don't understand what I'm supposed to do next, and it really helps with that. So I would want to know if I was going into an apprenticeship program myself, I would want to know what their curriculum is, or if they even have a true curriculum, because this one is nationally recognized.

Josh Arnold:

So not only does it allow you for our state currently to walk away at the end of the four years with a journeyman's license for the state, but then you know that that license can then be used to go other places in the country if you really wanted to. To try to find states that will reciprocate the license and allow you to to, you know, fill out all the proper paperwork, prove that you had the license and have held the license for so long, and be able to actually get a license in another state. For some people that may be their end goal. They want to get through the program, stay a few years and then they want to transition to. Maybe they're across the country from where they grew up and they want to get back there. But they want to move back with a skill set that allows them to go home to where the the rest of their family lives and and be there and be successful I guess for me I would say I kind of agree with both jenny and josh on that.

Jacob Oakes:

It's. It's important you find somewhere with an environment where you can feel comfortable and you're not like scared to make a mistake or something and end up because that's part of learning is you. You make mistakes and you've got to learn from those mistakes. If you're too scared to actually end up doing that, then you'll never end up learning anything. With Josh too, I agree with the whole. You have to find somewhere with a good curriculum, somewhere with a good form of learning. You want to make sure it matches what you want, to make sure it kind of matches what you want, what you want to go with, because there's a lot. There's a wide variety of uh directions, you can go with electrical, and so if I was doing this to go work somewhere that does not involve any form of construction at all, then it'd be almost not pointless.

Jacob Oakes:

But but you know you'd have good fundamentals, but I would have good fundamentals, but I would have to kind of learn more than what I'm being taught here.

Caleb Ayers:

So this curriculum specifically for you, I mean over the last two years. How have you seen what has that been like getting that mix of you know you're learning the basics, the fundamentals, and you know in the classroom with Josh, and you're learning out in the field at the same time. How have those two things come together and what has that been like?

Jacob Oakes:

It can be kind of interesting when you get to working with something and then you remember that you've read it in a textbook somewhere and that can be kind of helpful. For me it's really helpful when I'm reading the textbook. I'm reading something and I've remembered doing it in the past, so then I have something I can put with the textbook to make it real. Almost it's not just words on a page anymore, or vice versa, if I read something in the textbook and then go do it in the field.

Jenny Spitzer:

What I like about this program, and what I like about apprenticeship in general, is it takes different learning styles and it puts them all together. If you're a tactile learner, you're going to learn in the field. If you're an analytical learner, you're reading it, you're getting it, but you're still meshing those two together. Whether you're an auditory learner, whatever visual learner Josh has PowerPoints, he's speaking, you're learning different ways and you're putting them all together on the job site. And that's huge because I think when you just not for everyone, but there are certain sect of people who, when they go sit in a university, they're just hearing words all day and it doesn't register as easily right? Some people are just they can get it, they're analytical, they can read it, they get it, they can hear it, they get it. And other people really have to do whatever they're learning with their hands to really solidify it in their mind, and that's what I really like about this curriculum.

Josh Arnold:

Yeah, it definitely offers a nice blend of multiple learning styles and then, of course, you know I try to tailor to each level the way they learn best. You know whether they're. You know we get some people who can just read it and that's fine and they'll remember it all, and we get other people that they can read it but it doesn't make any sense to them. And so then being able to turn around, you know the same day or another day, you know another day that week or or as close as we can, depending on the jobs, going on and go out and actually do it and look at it what it looks like in the real life. Because you know they may explain something through the curriculum but we may never see it in our normal work as a business.

Josh Arnold:

So some of those things are like industrial job sites, you know, through huge factories we don't do a lot with industrials. We don't do a lot with industrials. So you know open cable trays for running all the wiring and everything, or complex bending for piping everything, every single thing in the entire building. You know we can read about it, but then you know trying to find other avenues, like we've watched different videos on some of the stuff, so you can see it as they're going through and what they're doing and you can be like, oh, I get what they're talking about now, for how this is supported, whereas before it was like oh, why would they even do it that way? Well, there's always a reason, but sometimes they don't include the reasons for things when you're just reading about it. So when you can actually see somebody who does it all the time and see them explaining it, well, this is why we have to do it, or this is why it works best. It solidifies that in their minds and helps them to remember it all.

Jenny Spitzer:

When it comes to, like Jacob said, with electrical, you could do low-voltage stuff all day long if that's the career fields you want to go in, or you could be a lineman and you could travel with a power company throughout every major storm in the United States you know what I mean and you could be going, you know, state to state, whether it's hurricanes or blizzards or tornadoes or whatever you know. Or you could do residential housing or you could do commercial. I mean you get the foundation and your avenues in which you choose to pursue having the electrical license are so vast and they vary so much, and I strongly, strongly believe you have to have a curriculum that touches all of that, because you do need to have some fundamentals on all of it.

Natori Neal:

What Jenny was saying is very relevant. Apprenticeship programs are customized to meet the needs of the employer while also adhering to industry standards. With Spitzer Incorporated, they don't do a lot of industrial electrical work. They do a lot of residential and commercial and generators and solar work. So the emphasis of their program is on that. Their apprentices are exposed to industrial electrical. But you know, when you're customizing that and when Josh is teaching the related technical instruction, most of the emphasis is placed on the work that they actually do in the workforce, whereas if a manufacturing employer with an electrical registered apprenticeship program, they would be focusing more on those industrial components while still maybe providing exposure to some of those other components like generators and in residential things of that nature. But their emphasis will be on the work that they're doing every day on the job. So a best practice is customizing it to meet the employer's needs and where they're also able to prepare an electrician or any other employee in any occupation to be successful, whether they're doing it you know, here in Danville for this one company, or here in Pennsylvania County for a company, or they wanted to take it across country into Alaska and work as an electrician or something another occupation. So when you're.

Natori Neal:

When companies establish registered apprenticeship programs. Yes, there are industry standards that have to be met, but that customization is key, you know, for companies to develop and establish that worker, that employee, for their company to be successful and grow and hopefully retain them for years to come. Hopefully retain them for years to come. And when apprentices complete their apprenticeship programs, especially in the trades of electrical plumbing, hvac now in Virginia they have eliminated the requirement to sit for their DPOR journeyman's licensure exam. So in those three trades there are other ones, but for the sake of this electrical plumbing, hvac they complete a registered apprenticeship program. It has to be registered and they get the proof of completion. They no longer have to sit for that journeyman's exam that Josh probably had to sit for and Josh can tell you about that.

Natori Neal:

Josh is a master electrician, so that's another benefit to you know the Spitzer program. They're not being trained by someone who has never worked in the field. Josh is a master electrician who still very much works in the field. And so they have they're able to say, okay, this day is my dedicated class day, and you know structure class at a time that works for them. You know when they want to hold class. They usually have a set day, but you know, if they have a project that's, you know running over time, they can alter their class days and rearrange things like that.

Josh Arnold:

Or when people are sick, or when people are sick.

Natori Neal:

Exactly.

Natori Neal:

So, they can. They have that and that's a benefit for Spitzer With. Another best practice I've seen is companies, employers, covering the cost of related technical instruction for their employees or their apprentices. Jacob hasn't had to come out of pocket for anything as far as his education is concerned because Spitzer is carrying that and that's the best practice that we see. Whether it's a manufacturer using a community college, the manufacturer covers the tuition, covers the books, that sort of thing. So the apprentice can focus solely on coming to work every day, doing their best in class and then learning on the job and then not having to worry about any debt that they have to pay back at the conclusion of their registered apprenticeship program. As an intermediary in this space that's helped set up multiple you know about 35, 36 registered apprenticeship programs and that's still growing year to date apprenticeship programs and that's still growing year to date and have seen over 100 apprentices, you know, actively involved in their apprenticeship programs. I see things such as employers maybe not, not maybe, let's say, when it's coming to selecting a mentor. They open that up to the employees who they, you know, currently have working for them to say, hey, we're having an apprenticeship program, we're establishing one, we're going to need mentors for our apprentices and then, instead of volunteering someone to do becoming a mentor, asking them to become the mentor for an apprentice, or presenting it as an opportunity to share knowledge and letting those experienced employees opt in to being a mentor has been something that I've seen be successful because when those mentors are sharing knowledge and, you know, being patient and encouraging those apprentices who are learning on the job to hopefully get to the level of those mentors, you want someone who wants to do that and not, you know, be forced to do it. I've also seen having that feedback, that constant communication between employers I have. You know you can call me whenever you need me. You can email me if you need anything, any questions. Nothing's off limits. So that's been a best practice that we've seen through Extra and working with Southern Virginia employers. Just let me know if you need anything at all, if it's a form you need emailed. If you need me to come and talk to parents about what registered apprenticeship is in order to get buy-in parents about what registered apprenticeship is in order to get buy-in, to get youth apprentices into your program, I will do it.

Natori Neal:

So, having that constant feedback, my employer partners inform almost everything, such as you know how we go about grant funding opportunities, how the grant process is working, what's needed. Do they need anything from the state that I can communicate to our state? Apprenticeship consultants or officials within Virginia Works. So having that communication and then having that network. Let's say, for instance, jenny, they have apprenticeship featured prominently on their apprenticeship website. They have apprenticeship featured prominently on their apprenticeship website. Jenny worked with another apprenticeship partner who helped build that website and so they work together and the apprenticeship partner who helped build the website has said hey, we want to feature apprenticeship, you know, to attract people to our workplace and to gain buy-in from the public. The other apprenticeship partner knew was well-versed in apprenticeship to know you know what should be featured on this webpage and you know how should we talk about apprenticeship. So they're there to also help each other within the extra network. So forming that and it's still growing every day and we're working on how do we bring these employers together to have more meaningful discussions.

Natori Neal:

Our extra employer partners have been involved in conversations with political officials. What's working, what do you need, what supports are needed, and so that also gives the employers another you know grounds for support, knowing that, hey, you know my voice is heard. Nothing is falling on deaf ears when it comes to our apprenticeship programs and being that, apprenticeship is being promoted locally, on the state level and even nationally. The president recently announced a goal for one million apprentices by the end of his term. In Virginia, governor Youngkin has a goal of 20,000 apprentices by the end of his term. So we're doing everything that we can, you know, as an intermediary in the space, as employers in the space space, to ensure that we're able to one create these opportunities and then support the employers who are responsible for establishing and providing these opportunities to these apprentices who are seeking, you know, learn and earn job, employment opportunities.

Caleb Ayers:

Yeah, no, and this was a lot of good best practices. I was sitting over here taking notes. I got a whole list of stuff. So I think, yeah, you know those main ideas of the customization of apprenticeship is definitely a good selling point for any company that's considering this is, you know that ability to? Yes, there are requirements. Yes, there are those fundamentals that need to be taught, but these should and can be customized to exactly what your workspace looks like.

Caleb Ayers:

And you know that this for apprentices, that these should be and are created to be, so that, jenny, as you said, that someone who walks in with basically no knowledge or skills in these areas that you would expect if you were hiring for a traditional employment opportunity that you can teach those from the ground up. There's a lot more that you guys said, but we'll stop it there. And again, as Notori said, she is happy to help for any employer across GoVirginia Region 3. That's 15 localities generally in southern Virginia that are interested in apprenticeship. Notorious is happy to help set those up. So anything else that you guys want to add before we go?

Natori Neal:

Extra's here to help if you need anything.

Caleb Ayers:

Thank you Well thank you all for being here. We appreciate it, thank you, thank you.