Inside IALR

Beyond the Surface: Exploring the History, Science, and Impact of Non-Destructive Testing

• Institute for Advanced Learning and Research

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What do submarines, aircraft and even theme park rides have in common?

They all rely on Non-Destructive Testing (NDT) to ensure safety and reliability.

In this episode of Inside IALR, host Caleb Ayers talks with Phil Bowers, NDT instructor for the Accelerated Training in Defense Manufacturing (ATDM) program, and Michael Donnelly, NDT manager with Industrial Inspection & Analysis at the Center for Manufacturing Advancement. Together, they unpack the fascinating history of NDT — from its origins in the railroad era to its role in modern defense manufacturing — and explore the science behind methods like ultrasonic testing, X-ray imaging and eddy current inspection.

Plus, find out why NDT careers are in high demand and how technology like AI and robotics is shaping the next generation of inspections.

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Phil Bowers:

So once something fails, then er then it's always, you know, it's always the NDT person. But up to that point, nobody really knows what we do. We're kind of like the ghost who sits in the background to make sure that nothing fails. And so until something goes catastrophic, nobody knows who we are or what we do. And so it kind of ke creates a mystery behind it.

Caleb Ayers:

Welcome to another episode of Inside IALR. Thanks for being here today. So today we're here to talk about non-destructive testing, which, as I say when I give tours, is exactly what it sounds like, and we'll get into more of the specifics of what that means. But essentially, non-destructive testing, you are testing something without destroying it. So they they named that field very well. So I have two guests with me today, and I'll let them introduce themselves real quick.

Michael Donnelly:

My name is Michael Donnelly. I'm the NDT manager at the Center for Manufacturing Advancement working for industrial inspection and analysis.

Phil Bowers:

So I gave my uh layman's understanding of non-destructive testing up front. I want you guys to give me your 20-second pitch to someone who has no clue what NDT is that you give, and then and then break it down further for when you're talking to smart people that know what you're talking about. So I spiel for students who don't actually know anything about it, and it's the first time ever coming to the understanding of what it means, is a way to evaluate materials in such a manner that you can just inspect anything, right? So roller coasters, bridges, roads, vehicles, you name it, if it attach if there's a life attached to it, we're inspecting it. Right? So helicopters, airplanes, anything that you actually get onto and transports a person or has some kind of life attached to it, we evaluate to make sure that whoever's actually using that product will end up surviving. We test stuff without breaking it.

Michael Donnelly:

I mean it's in essence is that simple, and you know, but it's very complicated once you start digging in. You know, we test stuff with different modalities, different different forms of energy to test different parts and depths of parts and welds. Uh it's just it's one of those super cool industries where I think you can do anything you want to do almost anywhere you want to do it.

Caleb Ayers:

So, just for those listening who don't know, Phil and Michael are involved in two different programs here at IALR, and I'll give kind of a brief explanation of what those are. So the ATDM program, Phil is an instructor for that, teaching students for who will go on to work in defense manufacturing careers. So that program is accelerated training in defense manufacturing. So Phil is one of several instructors we have just for NDT, where they're training students for NDT careers, students who have no previous experience in this most mostly. Um, in four months, they can learn the skills for an entry-level NDT role to then be able to move up in that field. Michael is with the Additive Manufacturing Center of Excellence, uh, or the AMCOE, we love acronyms here, which is essentially they're making the recipes for how to 3D print parts or how to use additive manufacturing to develop parts for that the Navy needs for naval vessels. Michael specifically is with industrial inspection and analysis, where they're kind of at the end of the that pathway inspecting those parts at the end to make sure that they're, as you all have said, to make sure they have the they're gonna hold up. Um that's that's the key thing. So with that kind of preface, and and Phil, you talked a little bit about this, you know, kind of that NDT is everywhere, but kind of talk about why is NDT such an important process in in manufacturing and specifically with what you all are doing, it's it's defense manufacturing. So I mean, why is this such a such a critical process?

Phil Bowers:

Um so NDT in itself really hit the um big back in the early uh railroad days, right? So that's basically where they became even any somewhat familiar with anybody was the railroad days, where they used to use motor oil and talcum powder on the railroad lines to look for cracks. So as they were welding track together, they were realizing the track was cracking after a certain point and they couldn't figure out why. So somebody came up with a completely absurd idea to throw motor oil down on it and then clean it off and then put talcum powder down, and as it bled out, you could actually see where the well didn't fuse. That was the you know the railroad industry. And then since then it's grown mainly the industrial revolution, right? So the next big jump is the industrial revolution. Uh and it was a lot of the construction side of the house started having a lot of failures in uh industry. So a lot of the a lot of material started failing, a lot of other catastrophic events started happening. So then people started finding ways to actually inspect it to find out what was happening, why it was happening, and ways to stop it from failing. So a lot of our the worst part about our job is the fact that our job came around because a lot of people died. R

Phil Bowers:

So a lot of there's a lot of like we're our job is to stop that from happening, and so it had to happen for us to get. And so majority of the time we're inspecting stuff, it's to stop that factor. So the Industrial Revolution, then from there, it was World War II, it was the next big jump. So after that, it's pretty much we've been non-stop inspecting everything since then. Uh, weapon systems, uh submarines, the USS Thresher, right? That's where the majority of the nav sea side of the house came from. Or the the subsafe side of the house came from was a thresher. Right? Thresher had a fatigue, huge fatigue crack or cracking in the hole that caused massive flooding. And that was the last time you know civilians were allowed on a dive for initial ship. So now all the all the submarines had to go through what they call subsafe. Right? So there's a much strenuous inspection process for subsafe rather than just standard ship inspections. Um, but yeah, so we inspect ships, we inspect subs, we inspect automobiles, roller coasters. Um, the carowins, right? So there was the roller coaster of the carowins that had a huge crack in them, and the actual uh support of the railroad railing system. That's our job is to inspect that to keep that from happening. So Disney World, Disneyland, they all have a they always have an NDT staff on hand just to inspect all the other rides.

Caleb Ayers:

What are the main methods at this point that are you were talking about kind of that history and development of people figuring out how to do this? So, what are those main kind of methods that are in in play right now that that you all see you know out in the field or in your roles?

Michael Donnelly:

Yeah, so Phil was talking about the oil of whiting method of putting oil and then talcum powder on track. Uh so that's liquid penetrant testing, is what that's involved in. It used to be petroleum-based chemicals that we would use and put on parts and then just wash them down the train. And you know, as ecological concerns and environmental protections have evolved, that's evolved just like everything else. Um the big ones are the liquid penetrant testing, radiographic testing, which is an X-ray, just like of your arm. We do that of various materials and shapes. Uh ultrasonic testing, which is putting sound into a part, and we can either bounce it or send it straight back up and down uh to see various places where we can't really reach sometimes. Uh that kind of started in World War II, big time with the uh barrels on the big battleships, actually. Cool story there. But then we have visual testing, which is just using your eyes, looking at a part, comparing it to a standard, making sure it fits where it's supposed to fit, everything's sound and nothing's visibly showing. And then we have uh Eddie Current, which is one of the more advanced methods currently. Uh well, I'd say phase array ultrasonics is probably the most intricate method we have currently. Uh but then Eddie Current uses magnetic coils to put energy into a part and it detects super, super fine cracks. So, like aviation parts that use Eddie Current a lot to look for cracks in the skin, uh, which is actually a structural component of the aircraft. And it'll actually work on non-ferromagnetic parts, so it's it's a very versatile method. So the other method would be magnetic particle, which uses magnetism. We can induce it in a whole bunch of different ways in different orientations, and that's either you use a dry powder and it attracts to a crack in the part, or it can use a wet liquid that will attract to the crack in the part, but it's a little easier to see because it's usually ultraviolet where it fluoresces.

Caleb Ayers:

So kind of talk a little bit about your I guess career journey, kind of some of the places you've put these skills to use, and then you know, with that, I guess practically, how when in the process are these, when in the manufacturing process are these different kinds of processes carried out?

Michael Donnelly:

So my path started about 2006. I just I went to Tulsa, Oklahoma, to go to a school called Spartan College of Aeronautics. I was really interested in aviation forever and thought it sounded neat. And my brother was going to be a mechanic, so I decided I wanted to check on his work, make sure it was safe, right? So I went through that program. Uh while I was in the school, I started working for an NDT company. Uh started doing X-ray of honeycomb panels for aircraft, and then it turned into X-ray of anything aircraft and some eddy current and ultra- I mean it was a fantastic experience to learn just a multitude of different methods and gain a bunch of hours of experience. Uh, from there I moved back to Missouri and started doing x-rays of stainless steel pressure vessel welds. Uh, and I did that for a long time. It was really interesting. There's a lot of beer tanks, wine tanks, milk tanks, vaccination tanks. COVID-19, we shot all those tanks that they made the vaccinations in. Just a multitude of different tanks. Um and after that, I got this show. Came here to specifically manage the NDT program and work with guys on helping build the parts to keep our country safe. Yeah, so NDT can happen at any stage of manufacturing. Uh, anywhere from the steel mill where they're making the materials, we can check the molds there, we can check the material before they melt it to make sure it's the right chemical composition. Uh we can all the way to the end where different components are welded together or fitted together. We can check at any stage anything that needs to be checked. We're we're very versatile. Um, and like Phil said, we've had to become that way to stop the loss.

Phil Bowers:

So for me, I um joined the Navy in '98. Um after joining the Navy, I went uh worked aviation for a couple years. Uh found out about NDT through that process, and then uh ended up going to the school in 2007, or actually 2006, finished in 2007, um, and have been doing it ever since, right? So helicopters, airplanes, um so I've yeah, I've worked on F-18s, F-14s, H-60s, F46s, 53s, um, some foreign aircraft that you know the US owns. Just just different things about the world. But also when I was on the carriers, I would also do stuff on the carriers. So I was doing um anything that anything that touched an airplane on the carrier is my my responsibility. So I was doing a lot of inspections on eddy with Eddie Current, mag particle, fluorescent, um, UT, RT, lots of experience in those doing those uh you know shots. You know, X-raying aircraft components, X-raying aircraft while they're fully assembled. Right? So, like he was saying, in the processes, we you know we start from the beginning, right? So when they first start making the materials all the way to the end of before it goes out the door. But then we also do it after that. So we actually inspect after in use, right, in service parts, parts that are already out there working. So we know everything has a fatigue and fail point, and a lot of times it's already been calculated into its use. And so our job is to go back out and to make sure it hasn't hidden that fail point yet. Right? So even though we started at the beginning of when it was first manufactured, nothing lasts forever. And so our job is to go through the entire process of from cradle to grave to where the product's no longer used anymore. All right, so I've shot x-rays. Oh, so after that I got out of the Navy, I um um went and worked for a company where we did uh explosive ordnance handling. So we had to do uh X-ray X-ray evaluation analysis of ordnance and rocket motors and stuff like that. Some of the rocket motors I was x-raying were older than I was. Um and so they were we were just evaluating them to make sure they were still in the service lifespan and that nothing was deteriorated or broken with them, and they were still usable. Um and so that just goes into the thing that every five to six years we pull them out of cold store and then x-ray them and then send them back to cold store.

Caleb Ayers:

That's really cool. And what you're talking about? Like, because I guess I've been in in the NDT lab over for the ATDM program, and you know, I you see students with the generally smaller parts is what you guys are working with. So that's what I'm thinking about, you know, that the pieces before they're going into use. But yeah, the idea of trying to x-ray parts on a helicopter that is assembled and figure out what's what, and that sounds that sounds fun and complicated.

Phil Bowers:

Correct. Yeah, so it's not so the what we what we have in the classroom is just a classroom type environment, right? We can't really necessarily bring a ship inside the inside the classroom.

Caleb Ayers:

Why not? Generally speaking, NDT, and and you had talked about this, kind of goes very hand in hand with welding. Um and also, obviously with IAA, you guys, I mean IIA, um, you all are doing work very closely connected with additive manufacturing. So I guess talk about the difference between, I guess, even what processes you would use for those, you know, if you're do it looking at a weld part versus uh something that was 3D printed, uh, kind of just how that how does that look different between those two things?

Michael Donnelly:

Everything we do is different, but it's also the same. I mean, we gave you the big methods examples, but there's there's a bunch of techniques under each of those methods, so we can, you know, ultrasonics, for instance. We mentioned phased array. There's ultrasonic conventional longitudinal, ultrasonic conventional shear wave, uh, phase array, shear wave, phase array longitudinal, uh, total focus method, uh beam steering, yeah. Um there's a tons of different ways, so essentially all the methods are the same, it's just how we how we focus in that energy and how we use different energy for different parts. So, additive in particular, um, we're not looking for gross defects most of the time. It's usually going to be very small, very fine holes that the lasers missed when they were fusing different layers or some spatter sometimes will stick in places that shouldn't stick. So we're looking for little BBs that shouldn't be there. Sometimes the powders don't get completely removed from the process, so we're looking for powder and holes that it shouldn't be in. Uh that and so it's it's all the same, uh, but it's we can tailor it down and narrow it down to a very specific application, and every application is different, you know.

Phil Bowers:

So with welds, we we concentrate strictly on just the weld and the area around it, right? So we call it heat effect zone. So we can we can actually control how much we we look at, how much we inspect. Because the material up to that point should be have been inspected up to the point where the welder got it hot. And so with the weld, we normally care about the weld itself, the weld meant how it was fused, how how the joint alert, right? So did they get the joint together like it's supposed to be? Did it meet the requirement of the code? And then the area around it where they heated it up during the welding process. All right, because those are the areas that are gonna change the characteristics of the base metal. To where, like with added manufacturing or something like that, you would go towards the casting side to where they're basically in a casting, you're pouring hot molten metal into a mold, and then you're letting it cool. Well, and with their added manufacturing, you're taking away the mold factor of it, and now you're just fusing certain points in the metal together. You're not just hot pouring metal into a big green mold, right? And so you're looking for different discontinuities based on the differences and how the processes work, and that's what our job is to do is to take how it was manufactured in the first place. Alright, so what are the initial, what was the initial point of manufacturing? So was it made in a foundry? R So to come out of foundry as a as a raw stock material, right? So you have a big plug of um ingot, right? And they'll cut out sections of it and they'll send it off to get forged. Forging discontinuities are nothing like casting discontinuity. So when you go to cast something, you get the metal molten hot and you pour it into a mold. Those are loosely bound grain structures, right? So you've got big grains of like mass. They're not really fine compressed. To where if you send it off uh a piece of metal off to a foundry to where it gets forged, like a sheet of metal, they actually take that hot metal, not molten, just like to the point where it's malleable, and they'll roll it, continuously roll it flat until it gets to a specific height, and that's how you get your metal, that's how you get the sheets of metal out of it. Because they just they roll it from a big chunk to get smaller and add more and more pressure, and it stretches the metal out until it gets to a very specific thickness. But by doing so, it takes all those grains and makes them small. So it makes it more compressed, more compact. So it makes it easier to inspect because they're actually more uniform grain structures. And where like a casting or a 3D printing, the grain structures aren't uniform in nature. So it requires a different understanding and different processes and a theory of concept to evaluate inspect them.

Michael Donnelly:

Currently at the AM CoE we use uh laser powder bed fusion. So how that works is there's a build plate with and a machine pushes a layer of powder over that build plate, and then there's a high-powered laser that fuses that powder into the build plate just instantly. And then after that layer is done, it makes another layer of the powder, puts the powder down, fuses it with the laser, and then just keeps going up and up and up. Uh, most layers are sub-half millimeter thick, so they're not thick at all. So it's very thin, that's very fast, and it makes a part that is just almost ready to go in service, depending on the application. So there's very little machining required to clean up a laser powder bed part. Uh, the other modality we do over there is uh directed energy deposition or WAM wire arc additive manufacturing. So it's just like in a shipyard, you see a guy with a Meg welder and he's just welding. We just put it on a robot arm and it just welds a layer and then goes up a layer and welds a layer and goes up. Uh so each of those. Modalities we're testing for very different things, and each one is challenging in its own right. So DED is more like a traditional weld, but it's stacked weld, so it adds a level of complexity that's very different. It requires a lot more machining after it's finished to get a usable part out of it. PBF is close to ready to go, but the surface is still rough, so most of the NDT methods are not applicable until it is machined or cleaned or smoothed, or they're developing different ways to prepare that surface for NDT before they go in service. So there's a little blurb for you on what we're printing.

Caleb Ayers:

It's not simple. It's not one size fits all. The process has to match how it was manufactured, is the very obviously I a lot of those details I don't fully understand, but that's that's the part I can get in in my brain right now.

Phil Bowers:

Our job in the industry is to determine exactly how what we need to inspect, right? How we need to inspect it, why do we based on how where it came from. We can sit there and inspect stuff all day long, but if we don't know where it came from or how it was originally manufactured, then we're wasting our time. And we might not be looking for the right discontinuities. Right? We're not looking for the correct indications if it was a welded part and I'm just trying to, you know, do a quick visual of it and and don't really care about anything else other than a visual. I can I can I've seen some pretty welds, some beautiful weld. You go look underneath it, horrible. Absolutely, just the worst thing you've ever seen. But you can't look underneath it with your eyes. You have to use some other method.

Caleb Ayers:

And obviously you all have different roles, Phil, with more you're more obviously training students who are actively looking to enter this field and get an NDT job. Michael, I know you're more kind of leading a team of people who are already in this field. Um, but what does this I guess career field look like? What are the kind of the pathways that people can go? Um, and I know there's there's like the different levels to this too. So if you guys want to talk about that as well.

Phil Bowers:

I'll go and start off seeing how my job is pretty much about putting putting people in the industry in the first place. Um so as far as like placing students goes, we can put place students just about anywhere. We we try to concentrate on the DIB, SIB, the MIB, right? So the maritime industrial base or the defense industrial base or the submarine industrial base while we're at it. Um we try to get them in those industries, right? Those are the industries that this program is set up to establish, to put them into. But the training, the level of training we give them, the actual knowledge itself, is applicable to any industry, right? So NDT in itself isn't only solely dedicated to one industry, right? So it's one of those things where I've had students leave here and get a job at you know a shipyards all day long, but at the same time, I've had students leave here and actually pick up a job where they're they're inspecting uh power plants, critical infrastructure. So they're going into the nuclear power plants and doing NDT inside of a nuclear facility, inspecting to make sure while they're doing plant shutdowns and rework, so that way they can get to understand, you know, like, but it's completely different theory altogether. Then I've got other students who are manufacturing components for the Navy or the Army or maybe anybody else, the Air Force, right? They're making tanks or making armored vehicles or making airplanes or making whatever. So they're they're going into those at those diff those fields with just the knowledge we give them. Again, which again is in four months. People, these people are coming in with no previous knowledge of this. I've had baristas last cohort had a school bus driver, right? Drove a school bus for several years. Uh she was uh, I don't want to give her age away, uh, but she was a little older, um let's say between the third 30s and 40s, um, and just complete complete career change, right? Um I've had a student in his 60s come through, complete career change, right? So come through, got the end of training the training, then went out and was successful successful. So there's not set to a specific age group. Um anybody can come to this program. I've had 18-year-old straight out of high school left high school in June or May, June time frame, August showed up here to go training, and left here made $45, $50 an hour. Um, and so this the program itself is a very great benefit to the industry, right? So our program provides we have employers all the time who like our students because the way we the way we train our training program works, how we train them, what we train them to, how we need them to understand NDT. And so while that was a very rare case that we got that for a student at that point, but there was a job out there that paid it. Um so yes, there's there's always opportunity out there for any industry to especially for NDT.

Caleb Ayers:

There's always a need. Yeah, I love as you know those stories that you were talking about of people coming with no previous experience in career fields that they're not fulfilled in, and then in four months they get to do something that they are fulfilled in and make good money doing it.

Michael Donnelly:

So in NDT, you're not stuck in any industry. You can switch industries. You can so yeah, we one day we can go to a power plant and x-ray a bunch of welds on piping in a system, and then the next day uh go to an airport and do x-ray examination of aircraft parts. Uh, the next day we could go to SpaceX, an X-ray, a space part. It's it's very it's very different. And when I say you can truly find something in whatever you like, I really believe you can. Uh so once they leave the ATDM, when they come to me, they're a trainee still. They have the experience, they have the uh some hours, but typically not enough hours yet to get the level one certification. So the level one certification is a person who has some experience and training in the method, um, but they're they're still learning. They still have a ways to go, so they have to operate under the supervision of a level two. Uh, the level two is responsible for completely taking a method outside away independently and doing that method efficiently and correctly. Um so they can take a level one and give them the experience hours to get them up to a level two where they go on their own and start training people under them. So it's kind of a self-feeding career field, if you will, too. Uh so level twos, you know, there's a lot of people who like to be level twos and they just stay at level two forever, and there's nothing wrong with that. You can make good money as a level two. Um, you could go do shutdowns and turnarounds and power plants and collect your per diems and your high wages and per uh what's the prevailing wage. There's a lot of prevailing wage federal jobs out there that travel around and pay really good money. Um so there's nothing wrong with being a level two forever if that's what you want. Um, guys like Phil and I, we wanted a little more, I think. Uh so we just kept going. We liked learning, we liked teaching, we like figuring out the problems that sometimes the level two can't figure out. So we have our own set of skills as a level three to to share with everybody and you know to write the procedures that the level twos have to follow when they're doing the testing independently to make sure everybody's safe.

Caleb Ayers:

So, yeah, again, I think it's cool to see you know the different ways that you all are involved, and obviously this is a very important career field, as you said, you know, in any industry, regardless of of what it is, if if people are touching it, if people are riding on it, whatever the thing is, you know, NDT is involved, so it's a very important industry. And just seeing the roles that you know these two projects are taking with that for obviously ATDM training the next wave of people who will join this industry and be able, particularly in the defense and maritime industrial base, be able to you know inspect these parts, inspect these welds, and make sure that all these ships and submarines, whether it be inspecting the original part or inspecting something on a submarine way after the fact or you know, whatever whatever that looks like, be able to do these types of inspections. And then obviously, Michael, with what you all are doing, with you know making sure that these recipes, these technical data packages that the Navy is creating for their suppliers, that those right processes are built in and um for how to inspect these parts. It's it's really, really cool. Is there anything else that you all would want to add about just kind of NDT in general or or you know the the role that you get to play in this field?

Phil Bowers:

I I enjoy my role, right? So there's not too many people who actually enjoy uh teaching NDT, they find it pretty difficult. I guess it's one of the things I actually enjoy doing. Um because it's very fulfilling to watch a student grow, right? You can get them to get them to understand what NDT is in the first place, and then watching light bulbs just start clicking off in their heads, and then once they start realizing because you can sit there and talk to them all day long about what NDT is and what it does and how important it is in the industry and how important it is in the world, and they don't understand until they actually start looking and they start doing their own research, and they're like, holy cow, it's everywhere. And they start applying to jobs, and they start realizing yes, they can get a job at SpaceX, Blue Ordnance hiring. Um you can go Tesla, you can go uh Lockheed Martin, Newport News Shipyards, we have everybody in every industry and every like we were in everything, but we're just the unknown, right? So so once something fails, then it's always you know it's always the NDT person. But up to that point, nobody really knows what we do. We're kind of like the ghost who sits in the background to make sure that nothing fails. And so until something goes catastrophic, nobody knows who we are or what we do. And so it kind of kee creates a mystery behind it, but we don't I honestly I openly talk about what we do all day long because I enjoy teaching, right? So I enjoy sharing my knowledge and sharing my information and watching people grow in the industry.

Michael Donnelly:

Over on my side of things and the production side, I have an ATDM graduate and we've been working with him, getting him his hours, and he's doing great. He came over with you know enough knowledge that he's able to just jump right in and start helping out. So that that's I can personally attest to the fact that ATDM is putting out great, great students. One thing I would add is just get comfortable with computers. Learn computers, learn if computers are of interest, you can go into NDT just doing computers at this point. AI is becoming mainstream in NDT, machine learning, programming robotics, uh operating the ROVs and the underwater robots, the remotely operated vehicles, quadcopters, yeah. I mean I know a guy who's he's a level three, his job is to collect the drone data that people collect across the country, and he just sits at his computer and reviews it looking for defects and says, Hey, go look at this closer. Uh so just learn your computers. Your reporting is gonna be computed. It's it's not gonna change, there's no way around it. Uh you can avoid it for a while, but I think in a few years it's gonna be completely unavoidable. And change is good. That's that's the growth in our industry, all the way from you know, back in the steamboiler days and crack tracks and all the way through now with leading edge edge computing and AI and machine learning. It's it's coming and it's I think it's a good thing as long as we continue to monitor it.

Caleb Ayers:

I think we should all try to do the underwater robots you were talking about. That sounds pretty cool. That's that'll be my next job. So thank you guys. I appreciate it.