0:00

Hey. It's Matt Jones here. If you wanna check out the video version of this podcast, click on the first link in the description. He sends me a spreadsheet and's got 3 pictures. Right? Yeah. Boom. Boom. Boom. Here's the things in this, that plus this, that plus this, and then I get to decide which one I want or I may call him and ask him a few questions. But At the end of the day, I got to decide you didn't sell me, and that's what's key. Mhmm. You did, but you didn't. Then I ended up getting gonna end up getting the job. Brian, welcome to the Site Shed podcast. Hey, Matt. How are you doing? Thanks for having me, man. This is gonna be fun. Thanks for joining us all the way from Georgia. Yeah. It's almost bedtime here. You're probably just got up. Yeah. It's

9: 0:59

20 AM. It's not that I haven't even showered yet. You're talking to guys ready to go to bed. That's right. I've got I've got a staff member in Florida, so I know the time zone. Oh, very nice. Man, we're here today to talk about contract negotiation and maybe as well sorry. Sales and negotiation, but also maybe a little bit about your background because I know you mentioned offline that you came from Blue collar, wearing a landscape business at one point, and you built and sold that. And since then, you've released a number of books and Looks like this is gonna be an interesting conversation. So, yeah, I got my first start in the landscaping business. That was my first business at the age of twenty one. Yes. Primarily because I didn't have anything else to do and didn't have any discernible education or job skills, and I thought, well, anybody can mow grass. So I bought a lawn mower, a weed eater, and a blower instead of my first business. Awesome. And, yeah, how I suppose, that's clearly not where you are right now. So things have progressed since then. I'd love to hear a bit about our story. Yeah. So I built that in 7 about 7 or 8 years, we built into 7 franchises here in in Atlanta, Georgia. And I like to say the business did really well until it didn't. because I made a lot of critical first business business person errors and lost it and lost everything in the process. learned a lot. And then changed industries and went into the insurance industry and did a couple of venture capital deals and into the Internet business after that, did a did a private equity exit, then went into consulting and sales and management, and then wrote books. and then got into politics. I sit on city council here in the town I live in, and then got into the coaching mentoring business. And now I'm on your pod I might have hit the peak of my career right here tonight. Now you've made it. You've made it. You've made it. You'd be able to tell all your mates. I'm worldwide, man. Expect the series on LinkedIn featured on the social podcast. That's it. That's it. So, yeah, I mean, You've written a couple of books recently. Well, one recently and one previously. I'd like to touch on, I suppose, a few of the things that came out of those books, but like, essentially, this whole negotiation psychology theme. I think it's something that is super useful to anyone out there, especially in the trades that are, you know, selling the service or selling a product, mostly a service, I suppose. how to handle objections and all that kind of stuff. Stuff, we're actually going through with our own business right now with salespeople that are just coming on board, and we're doing all these sales trainings and things like that. So I'm probably trying to scratch by each to a degree. Yeah. You know, as I like to tell people, I don't care what industry you're in. Somebody's gotta sell your product. But if you don't have any sales, you don't have a business. Right? So sales is what makes the road go around, and it's very integral to your success. And the better you are at it, and, obviously, the higher chances of success you're gonna have. So if you're not good at it, you need to find somebody who is. And if you need to learn it yourself, then that's why I wrote the book. Mhmm. Awesome. So dive into it a bit. Let me know a little bit about well, I mean, I suppose coming from that trade background, is that is a lot of what you experienced within that business model or the landscaping side of things, what fuel due to learn more about psychology and, like, the negotiation side of things. You know, obviously, when I started my first business, I was the guy that was out there selling everything. So I because I didn't have any I'm a kid that filled out a high school at 16 and didn't go to college. And so I started reading. I did a tremendous amount of reading on business and sales and negotiation and just self help and making myself a better person. And because I was a guy out there selling every year for 7 or 8 years on every job, think I just naturally learned some of the psychology behind why people make their decisions to choose you as a contractor or not choose you. and then started implementing those into what I did. And really didn't even know I was that good at sales until I moved to the next company I started, which was in the insurance industry. and then got better and better at it, and we did a majority of the stuff over the phone back then. Mhmm. And then went on to the next company and the next company and pretty soon, I was doing consulting for Fortune 500 companies and and had a sell. How to sell and how to manage your sales. Right? How to manage your marketing and marketing ROIs and sales conversions and all that kinda stuff. And at the end of the day, the psychology behind the sale is what is gonna be the difference between you being super successful at sales or not. You know? There's too many people out there trying to tell you that all these cheesy sales lines and closing gimmicks and all this nonsense, and I I I hate those, quite frankly. Sure. I also don't like hardcore closers because I don't think that's the way to do it. So we really teach ARP program on the psychology behind what's the column what's the customer thinking? What are the objections gonna be and how do we overcome them? And our big thing is overcoming objections prior to the customer having them. And so if we can take your business and we can figure out how to do that, then we see people's sales conversions double and triple. It's one thing we'd notice we'd notice with all of our clients and a lot of our well, ourselves, especially, like, the ecosystem that happens within a sales cycle and how like, we know if somebody's come to us and they've had some sort of level of exposure to what we do. They've consumed our content. They're missing the podcast. They've read our blogs. They've been part of our newsletters or whatever it might be. Like, they're far they're far more qualified and and more We don't qualify for your bad word, but they're they're more likely and willing to sort of engage and and go to the next stage because they've they sort of already know, like, and trust you to a degree. But it it's it's one thing that we really try and help our clients do. Like, we try and get them become, like, bit of a like, create some authority content so that people go, oh, these guys guys actually know what they're talking about. Right. then you have a client that's actively interested in buying your product as opposed to what we call passively interested. Right? So I saw this. I might call them versus oh, yeah. I've seen their stuff. I know them. They're actually experts in their field. They know what they're talking about or they have a reputation. And now when I call you, I'm actively interested in more open to listen to what you have to say. We call this this first interaction with people when you're a salesperson, you have a client. We call this the the wall of mistrust. that's always there between the salesperson and the client. Right? And clients typically come in in a defensive posture. And anything you can do to bring that wall of trust down and lower that defensive posture is gonna help you make the sale, whether that's what you've done previously through your podcast or your advertising or through your reputation or whatever. Or when you first get on the phone with them, the things that you say, and we script out things for for companies and say, this is what you need to do, this is what you need to say to start that wall of mistrust down so that your client's more open to, you know, what you have to say after that in in the deal done. So it's it's a pretty common scenario, I think, within the trades Well, it depends. Like, if you if you work within, like, day to day jobs and projects like, you know, plumbers, electricians, maybe landscapers, you know, where you might -- Mhmm. -- somebody might call call in for a job. There might be a CSR who takes the call, and they may sell, like, a, you know, the $99 site visit to start with. Right. So there's there's almost 2 sales that can happen in that residential home service space where you got that initial sale to get to get the technician to the home, and then you've got technician who's gotta go there and actually define what the problem is. and then give them a price on or, like, go through us by I suppose, a scope and figure out what the actual issue is and then give them the -- Sure. -- price, which is sort of a second sale. Right? Right. So -- Yeah. I mean, the fur go ahead. No. I was just gonna say, can you speak to that, I suppose, like, a model a little bit on how to Yeah. So the first sale, particularly if you're doing what you're doing, which is just presale and getting them out there. And I like to say that And this applies either whether you're talking about that presale or the person walking out on the job. Too many people fail in that sales process because they think that they need to do all the walking as opposed to asking the questions. Right? If you call me about my service, my first question is what what are you looking for? What's the problem? You know, why are you calling us today? Have you talked to anybody else? Has anybody else talk to you about coming out to see you? Who are they? They're a great company. Why didn't you pick them? And Well, it sounds like we can help you today. So here's what we kinda need to do. In order for me to get a technician out there, they can do a full service where they can do a blah blah blah blah blah. It's $99. come out. He'll tell you everything that needs to happen, you know, whatever it is for your service. And then you take that same example when a person walks out on the job, You do the same thing. You ask questions instead of talk. The biggest problem people have in that process is those people on the phone just wanna talk. as opposed to let the client talk. Clients will talk themselves in or out of your service if you allow them. Yeah. It's one thing we're definitely learning as well. It's the that whole like, that that like you said earlier in the conversation, that whole like, sales frame framework from the eighties nineties, you know, always be closing mentality. It's so deep in the water. the and and I'll save this to our sales guys. It's like you just you're not selling anything. You're just presenting options, and it it's how you present the options. that can solve the problems, which really which really makes the difference. Essentially, you're letting your customer make the decision that did I mean -- Yes. -- reason, but you're not, like, trying to force anything on them. It's like, well, this is what we can do to solve this problem. Do you want -- And and I So we we talk about that first objection. The first objection is that people don't like salespeople. Right? They don't like them because they're afraid of them. They're afraid of them because they don't wanna be sold, and they don't know what's gonna happen And so one of the first things we tell everybody in a sales situation is, listen, here's what I need to do, Matt. You called me about about whatever service it is, garage doors, landscaping, plumbing, whatever. Here's what I need to do. I need to ask you a few questions, find out what's going on, Based on that, I will make a recommendation with the services we have available. If that makes sense to you, we'll talk about pricing, and then I will let you decide if you'd like to move forward. now is that fair enough? And you disarm the client, you tell them what's gonna happen next, you tell them they get to make the decision, ask them the question so you know what you're dealing with, when they say, yeah. That's fair enough. Now we get to move to the next step. The first question is, tell me about your problem. And then we here's what I here's my can do, and here's how I can help you. Now something is that something you'd be interested in taking a look at? And if it is, let me schedule somebody to get out there and and show you what it is. But it's really about setting that customer at ease, taking away that that that defensive posture they've got, opening them up, letting them tell them they get to decide, Now the reality is they get to decide, but I'm still guiding them through that process. I'm kind of I'm gonna help them make that decision. But -- Sure. -- you know, we we we push it down a path of them deciding and that give them that comfort they need in order to move forward. So -- Sure. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. I think so often it's like, it's almost, like, the it's almost the scripted version of these things that fall over because you just you're steering people towards something that's on a bit of paper as opposed to something that they specifically need in relation to solving that problem. Right. I mean, I I even yesterday well, thankfully yesterday, I was on a call with a guy who was had a business who was selling, like, media buyers or something like that. And, like, he's following this script, and I go, man, listen. Stop reading the script. I know you're reading a script right now. Yes. Just just talk to me like a person. I've got a problem here, and you're just talking off a script, and I know it's because oh, no. But I need to follow the script to get the answers. I'm like, you don't. You -- Have a conversation with me. Yes. Exactly. It was just ridiculous, and I was like, this is -- One of our big points Have a conversation with me. Too many salespeople, they're like, so as soon as we start talking about it, go, hey, Matt. How are you doing, man? What's going on? Hope you're having the best day of your life. Oh, yeah. I do. Now you sound like a cheese ball salesperson. Right. That's -- And I can't stand it. But small talk like intro thing where you Like, it's -- Yeah. It's like, how are you doing today, man? So cheesy. Oh, man. And so and then we get into the sales process, and and you were right. You're right on target. A lot of times people try to sell me something as opposed to giving me, you know, the option to choose. Right? So I always use this example. And my HVAC contractor, good friend of mine. So the way he does it is he says, you know, we've looked at the problem and you've got 3 You've got my premium option, my mid level option, and my low option. They start from 5000 to 9000. Where would you like me to start? because I don't wanna go through all of them if that's not what you're interested in. Oh, well, I'd I'd like to hear the $5000 option. Alright. Well, let's talk about that. As opposed to me making the decision and trying to sell them on the $9000 option, when the person isn't gonna do it anyway. Right? So the 5000 option works like this, yadayadayadayadayada. And they go, well, what's the difference? Well, the difference if we wanna move up is this. And if you wanna move up again, one more, it's this. But we're back to which one of these fit in your budget and which one of these is more interesting to you. I think I like the $5000 option. Right? So the whole sales process too, allowing the client to make that decision, one of the things we we all also teach is we never ask people what their budget is? Horrible question. Yeah. You know why? because they'll lie to you. Of course, they will. And they're gonna lie to you low. Right? And so here's the big problem. If I tell a customer say, hey. What's your budget? And they say 4000. I say great. My product's 5000. What do I sound like? It sound like I'm trying to oversell you something. Right? Because you told me 4, and now I'm 5. Now the reality is I can't go to 4, but I set myself up for failure by asking you a budget, allowing you to lowball me. And now I have to give you a higher price, and I look like the bad guy -- Yeah. -- where I should have started the conversation with My products range from 5000 to 10000. Where would you like me to start? Yeah. And that is a different conversation because I'm no longer not listening to you. I'm telling you my options letting you decide and then explaining exactly what it is you told me to explain. That is a huge tip for salespeople. Yeah. But I find -- -- ask people their budget. Maybe it's slightly different to what we do, but, like, we find, you know, when people ask that to ask them if we say, well, we got products that started a thousand bucks a month old$12,000. Where where do you wanna start? Like, no one's gonna spend 12,000 because it and and and the and the problem is, I suppose, as well, like, from with with with us doing it that way, especially, like, you're not like, we try to avoid giving people what they don't need because they'll come to you for one thing, not fully knowing. You know? Tell them what they want or give them what they need kind of thing. So I'm not quite sure how that would play. And I know a lot of businesses might be the same. You know? If you look at a plumber or, you know, someone calls out, I'll get no hot the hot water's not working. Okay. Well, you know, options are realistically. We could replace the thermocouple on your hot water heater, which could be, like, a $300 fix, or we could replace the hot water heater, which$2000 fixed, but your hot water heater is 3 years over expiry date. And if we do do replace the therm a couple, then in 12 months' time, the heater's probably gonna blab anyway. Do you wanna make? That's actually not a bad sell though, Matt, because I'm telling you I can fix it for this. But here's the challenges you're gonna have. Here's the liability and risk you're gonna take. and you get to make that decision. because I'm supposed to be walking in and saying, hey. You need a $2000 water heater. When I know the next guy walking the door is gonna sell him a $300 coupler. Yeah. I'm giving you the option. And then when you say I'd like to do the coupler, I'd say that's great. We can do that for you. You understand the risk, you understand the liability, you understand what yes. Okay. Then great. I'll do that. Now if you wanna go the higher route, here's how I can do it. So it's not it's not a bad way to do it. Yeah. Sure. Talend's walking in, selling him a$2000 water heater is the next guy's gonna come in and offer him the coupler and tell them what you just told him, which is the water heater going out of out of service. The a lot of the the guys out there today, though, they'll run off, like, an upfront pricing or a flat rate kind of model, which kind of does what you said before. Like, it gives them well, what your HVAC guy goes does it get it sounds kinda like flat rate. Like, when you present them with options and you say, well, this is the this is what these are the options for you which which one looks better. I mean, you can then go into explaining what they are and perhaps, you know, beyond that, what the differences look like. And we it typically lowers, I suppose well, the feedback I get anyway I mean, I've never done it because it was sort of that sort of came in after I was out of the trades, but the even the feedback I've got is what if people can actually see that there's options 1, 2, and 3. Like, you're not trying to sell them on anything. You say, well, this is these are the these are the three things it'll present that will that will Back to my HVAC guy, he sends me a spreadsheet. He's got 3 pictures. Right? Yep. Boom. Boom. Boom. Here's the things in this, that plus this, that plus this, and then I get to decide which one I want, or I may call them and ask them a few questions. But at the end of the day, I got to decide you didn't sell me, and that's what's key. You did, but you didn't. And I end up getting you're gonna end up getting the job. So if we're gonna go like, let's I suppose take it to the point where somebody's been contacted through like, an inbound lead or whatever it is, and there might be and and the individual's taking the call. It's super easy. And I think one of the biggest things I I see people stripping up on is they just they they give too much of the wrong information away too early in the piece, which essentially ends up destroying the sale. Like, for example and when people are calling around in their price shopping or whatever, like, there's that whole commodity conversation where people like, well, I just wanna quote what does it cost for this? Because I've got 3 other quotes, and I wanna go with the cheapest kind of thing, where they don't really understand the depth of the the value and what the other options or or a bigger option that, you know, might be able to prevail for them, but they're on the phone. And, like, I just wanna know. I what's the what's the price? What's the quote kind of thing? What I've just told you works perfect in that scenario because if they've called 2 other people, those are the people gave them their cheapest rate. Right? in my case, I'm gonna be like, sounds like you've talked to a couple other people. Here's the deal. The options I'm gonna give you, and I'd have to explain them, we're gonna start at $300 if we just do the therm coupler or can go to $2000 if I'm gonna replace a hot water heater, I can explain either one of those to you so it really depends on what you're looking for. You're you know, you You're gonna have to go that route with this. Otherwise, they're gonna be like, well, the other guy was, like, fifty bucks cheaper. Alright. Yeah. But I think one one of the one of the things we get a lot of not great feedback about out of the marketplace is these these sites that have like, job listings, I suppose, and and people -- Mhmm. -- like, homeowners and stuff and go on, and they go, oh, I wanna get this done. And then, like, all these contractors come back with it. It's like a race to the bottom, you know, straight away. Yep. So I'd love to hear I mean, maybe it's a like, a a slightly parallel conversation, but what your take is on, like, not having to be so dependent on those forums and those sort of avenues as your source of work? You know, I I I would say that a part of that is the reputation and background and history of your company. Right? If I'm a big player in the field, I'm not playing that game. Mhmm. because I know I've got reputation. I know do, and probably I'm so busy that I don't have to play that game. I find a lot of the people playing that game are the smaller players in the industry, and those guys are always gonna cannibalize themselves. You know, I own a chain of restaurants. Right? And I hear this all the time. My my sir my bartenders and servers ago. Oh my god. A restaurant down the street selling beer 50¢ cheaper than us. Like, I don't care. They're probably gonna go out of business. They're making bad business decisions. So we're gonna write it out, and we move on from there. So if you're a player you're not gonna really deal with that anyway. If you're trying to get started, you know, you gotta hold your ground. I mean, that it's a tough it's a tough one, but you just gotta hold your ground. I mean, I just typically say that, like, guys in that situation, again, time back to what we said earlier in the piece, like, you gotta be able to back up your claim. Like, it's great. Sure. That there's these op there's an option here where you can join that whole model where you just erase at the bottom on price, and you you can try and be the guy who does it more efficiently, but really did is really worth it. You know? Like, the those people are out there looking for a service, and these sites come up because they're ranked well. There's no reason why you can't also compete on that or more of a point, like, have some sort of local presence and some sort of like, a website deal, which can help you showcase the work you do or help you tell your stories, like, have project case studies of jobs that you've done so people go, ah, that's kind of what I want. Like, that makes sense instead of going straight to this low ball you know, so -- I'll tell you what's even better is video testimonies from your customers. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Give me ten I just finished your job. Are you happy? Give me a 10 minute 10 second video testimony. Yep, John. Matt did a great job. Appreciate what he did. The price was good. Thanks, man. Yeah. Post about 5 or 6 of those. And when you get in that situation, say, hey, man. Listen. I don't know what else you've heard, but go to my website. look at the video testimonials. You can see the people that we've worked for. We do a good job, get a good price. If that's what you're looking for, we can help you, but I can't be the cheapest Gong block. Yeah. Yeah. No. Totally. But I think that's one thing as well where people they don't like, it's obviously I don't have an uncomfortable conversation for them to ask it so they don't. Right. Well -- And and and until it becomes part of a process, they typically never will ask it. You know? It's what we've tried to unpack for them a lot. It's like, just make it part of your process to ask that question because if you don't ask, you'll never get it. Mhmm. He just like, sometimes, if you wanna build and grow your business I tell the people, listen. If you wanna build and grow your business, you might need to do things you're uncomfortable with. Totally. I'm telling you what you need to do. So go do it. If I'm your coach, if I'm your mentor, if I'm the guy that's telling you what to do, go do one. and then do 2 and then do 3. And pretty soon, you'll be doing it on every call. So do you think like this whole like like, when we're talking sales out of negotiation, like, this whole ecosystem that we're kinda discussing does come into play at every level at every size of business. 100%. Yep. Sales and negotiation, it it so here's another thing I tell people all the time. So sometimes we look at individual small players and we look at medium sized companies and we look at big companies. Right? So let's say we're looking at a big company. What's a big company in Australia? Give me a giant company there. Anyone? Vegemite. Vegemite. Okay. Who runs veggie Mike? Which which ironically is now American, apparently. So, yeah, anyone. It's run by a person. It's not the big giant corporate entity that is you think it is because it it feels like it's like IBM or Apple. It's run by a person. There's one person there, and that one person is no different than me or you. That person just got a job there and got promoted into their new position. Another person you're either talking to or doing the website or doing the marketing, it's still run by people. People are people are people. I don't care how big the company is, still run by people, and they're all the same. Right? People react the same. Their psychology is the same. Human nature is the same. They think the same. Everything's run by people in a cab how big the company is. So, yes, these levels of negotiation work no matter what the size of the company because in no matter what the size of the company, it's still just people. negotiated in $1,000,000,000 companies. I negotiated in in my little $100,000 landscaping business when I got started. It's still talking to people. and people react the same way. So with with the negotiation side of things, essentially, it's a back and forth conversation between 2 or more parties. Yep. Often based around price. So -- Yep. what's the general framework that we can that we can communicate as opposed to the audience here in relation do well. This is how you go into this con this team prepared. This is how you go into this conversation. These are the things you need to do to make it a successful negotiation. So I tell people this when they're gonna go into a sales and negotiations situation no matter what products you're selling, there is a process that you go through. We call it the 4 box process. Right? There's an introduction, there's a fact finding phase, there's a presentation phase, and there's a close phase. The close phase is not where you close the sale. The presentation phase is not where you close the sale. We close a sale on the fact finding. And I don't care what product you're selling. I don't care how big the company. It's still in the fact finding phase. And the fact finding phase is where we figure out what they're looking for, why they're looking for it, when they're looking for it. Who else they've shopped with? Why didn't buy they buy with that company? and then we move into what's the problem they've got, and then internally while all this is going on, I'm formulating in my head how whatever I've got is is gonna solve that problem. And we find out all those things because what we're trying to do and what we teach is we're trying to overcome their future objections. Right? no matter what your audience sells, I would guess that in every situation they've been in, there's probably 4 or 5 objections that they have every single time. Right? It could be a price objection. It could be a timing objection. It could be a whatever. there's always 4 or 5 objections that all your clients are having. It's not like they're making up a 1000 different objections. So if we know what those objections are gonna be, then we build our sales process around those objections when we find out what, why, who, when, and who else they've talked to. We build our system around those objections based on those questions. We do all this in the fact finding. So by the time we get to the presentation, it's really and by the way, we're questions all the way through the process, making that connection with the client. We're getting them to sell themselves. We use positive affirmations and yes statements and time we get to the presentation, we're really explaining to them what they've already agreed that they want. But you gotta build that sales process around those objections finding out those questions And that's that's really hard to me to get into that because that's, like, a 4 hour training session. But -- It's a book. It's a book. Yeah. but that's really what you do. No matter what you're selling, I can tell you when I sat and sold a $6,000,000 piece of software, I did the same thing. I sat at the table with a bunch of people at a $1,000,000,000 company, and we just for, like, 30 minutes. Mhmm. I wasn't selling too many people think they gotta sell. Mhmm. Too many think they gotta talk. Too many people think they gotta explain everything there is to explain. And they don't. What you need to do is find out what the deal is, have them fall in love with your solution, and then you move on. Mhmm. I always use the car sales example. Have you ever bought a car mat from car lot? Mhmm. Okay. When you go on the car lot, they don't hand you the owner's manual and say, read this before we take a test drive. Right. You don't need to know everything about the car. You need to know what color you want, what brand you want, and let's go take it for a ride, roll the windows down, turn the music up, tend like we're driving by our neighbors, you know, showing off our new car. We get you to fall in love with product, then we get into the details. Mhmm. Too many salespeople think they gotta explain everything. Yeah. It's it's so funny you say that, you know, like, we've we've got some we've got this new program, which we're which we're very busy with. Foundationally, we help buy customers define their offer. And so so much of that is what you just said then because until we go through this process with them, they're trying to they're going into too much detail. It's like, like, what's the problem with -- -- throwing up on the client. Well, exactly. Or or more to the point, it's like they're trying to but they're trying to resolve the things that aren't actually the problem. It's like the clients are coming to them. It's not because they you know, they're they've got an inefficient air conditioning system. It's because they're bloody freezing cold in the winter, and they're stinking hot in the summer. Like, the it's And some and I know because when you're in business sometimes, you you get these polarizing views of what you think you should be selling because you do it every day, and you're so used to that language, and you're so used to like, you're trying to communicate with people the way that you're expecting to be catered with based on the level or knowledge that you have -- Oh my gosh.-- they don't. That's a whole another problem in sales. So I use this example a lot. Here's the very worst thing you can do as a salesperson. Start using technical jargon. Right. And here's why. Matt, if I was talking I'm a pilot. Right? If I started talking to you about ATC demands and, like, know, I need to know what your barometric pressure is, and we're gonna talk about the frequency you're gonna switch to next. And after that, we're gonna talk about your altitude, and we're gonna talk about your approach and your arrival. right now, your brain's still trying to figure out what a damn frequency is that we're trying to change. Right? So I'm talking to you at a level that you don't understand, and here's what I always tell people. Have you ever been in a conversation with somebody and they say something you don't understand? What does your brain do? just stops. Yep. It stops because your brain starts trying to figure out what you said. And then by the time your brain reengages in the conversation, the person you're talking to is like, 30 seconds down the road, and now you're behind the conversation. So your brain's trying to catch up to the conversation. And while your brain has either stopped or catching up, it's not retaining any information that is going in that this person's saying. They're talking just like lips moving and nobody hears them. The problem is you said something they didn't understand. So you need to understand the first thing you need to do in sales, stop using technical dark jargon. Stop talking fast, and always stop in the conversation and do it what we call loss for effect in a check-in. If I said, Matt, do you understand what an a t c frequency is? No. Okay. Well, basically, when I'm flying, I have to change frequencies about every 20 minutes. Does that make sense? I gotta talk to somebody else because I'm flying farther away. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Like, in your HVAC, we've got this SER reading. I don't know what I'm talking about, by the And it's 1.7. Do you understand what that means? Mhmm. I don't either. So here's what that actually means and how it affects you. Right? opposed to just throwing it out there and saying it and moving on, and the client's going, what the hell is a serrating? I I don't know what he's talking about. You know you know what I call it? passing the mom test. I always say -- Go ahead. I say you're our clients. Right? Okay. because when we come back and we say, What are your services? What do you do? Tell us, and then they come back with this jargon. Yeah. I'm like, okay. Go and send this to your mom and tell me -- I I love it. -- tell me if she understands anything you've put there. That's great. The mom tells you. It's never failed me. No offense, mom. That's exact. And and here's the other thing that do. And here's a big mistake I see salespeople do all the time. I love this one. So I'll train them on, only talk about these 5 things. Whatever your product is, tell them 5 They're like but but they wanna know more. No. They don't. They don't need to know more right now. They need to fall in love with the product. 5 things. What happens is they say 5 things to client a, And client a says, well, explain this to me. And they go, oh, okay. And then when they go to the next client, they explain those 5 plus what the first client asked. And that client asks them a different question, and then the next client, they explain the 5 plus what the first two clients asked. And by the time they get to the 10th client, they're regurgitating a book again. Yeah. They've gotten off the track. Right? Because they think everybody wants to know what the last person asks, and they really don't. Blaine your 5 things. Let them ask you a question. Move on. And and, you know, then -- -- things. Exactly. But you know what? Even, like, when you're saying they fall in love with the product, we find for most of our clients not even a case of falling in love with the product. It's falling in love with the outcome. There you go. because because if you look at, like so we have loads and loads of solar. companies. Right? Like, you know, we're getting really good results for solar companies because what do they what do they typically do out there? When they're trying to sell something to a customer, say, oh, we'll give you this unit, which gives you a 300 kilowatt output at, you know, 3 amps, and we've got a, you know, this storage facility which can and they and, like, shut the what are you talking about? Like, people don't know what that means. People just wanna know we can run your electricity off grid. or we we can -- -- power my refrigerator and my AC. Yeah. Well, you you can reduce your energy consumption to 0 during the day by using our system. Like, that's what they give a shit about. You know? And so -- Yeah. -- I think so so often it like, people get caught up in in that as well. It's like, oh, we'll sell them on this product because it's a Mitsubishi 418632, and it's what could happen to the crap. Okay. I I remember we I did a sales organization. We had the top salesperson and a new person. and the new person's like, I don't feel like I can sell and check properly explain the max out of pocket. And I looked at the top salesman. I said, can you explain the max out of pocket? She goes, what's that? Exactly. You don't need to educate your clients. You don't need to know everything. That it's just that's that you're gonna fail if that's what you think you need to do. Man, this has been an awesome conversation. I feel like we could go on forever on this. You have written a book about this recently. Know the Art of sales and negotiate no. Dot, the art of sales and negotiation. I'll put the link to the Amazon to to Amazon in that for you guys if you wanna go check it out. I haven't yet had the chance to go through it, but I've I've bought it. So I'm gonna go through it next. And what what was the other book again? First book was called the dropout multimillionaire. The dropout And that's a how to how to be successful in business with no money, no education, and no clue? because that was me. Well, I can confirm for you listeners and viewers out there that that book is actually on all of all. So if you wanna go listen to it, go get it because I just bought it before this call. So, no, mate, it's been awesome having on the show. so much for sharing these sharing these wisdom with us. I mean, I suppose it's one of those things which, truthfully, can always evolve. Like, the sales process, understanding that whole psychology behind sales. Like, it's one thing that's it's in my experience, it's never one I'm done. Like, it's a constant evolution. There's always something you can do better. Always. As long as we're always moving forward, we're always getting better, we're always making more money. Well yeah. Exact well, you know, we'll creating a better customer experience, you know, which results in more money lag and lead effects, you know, all this sort of stuff. So Mate, thank you so much. Where can where can we where can the listeners get hold of you if they need to? Super easy. www.brianwillmedia.com. Oh, it's my website. I've got it all here. It'll be in the show notes for you guys out there that wanna check it out, head across to the session.com, search Brian, and you'll be able to find this poked this episode with the show notes there. Matt, I appreciate you having me on the site, man. This was awesome. Yeah, man. You've made it. So Thanks so much for that. And, guys, if you have any, like, follow-up questions around anything specific around negotiation or sales or whatever might be. Hit me up where you see this come through in the group or in the emails or whatever. I have no doubt Brian would be more than willing to come back and do a bit of a deep dive into some of these more specifics. 100%. So, yeah, mate, appreciate your time. Thank you very much. I'll let you get on with your evening. Thanks, Matt. Appreciate it. Ciao. I hope you enjoyed that episode of the SciShow Podcast. If you like the sound of 30 qualified proposals in the space of 90 days, I just want to recap Head across to tradie.wickyforward/offer. Watch the videos fill in the form and make sure you book a time to have a chat with me. This is for businesses that are making $50,000 a month in revenue are located in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, or the USA, and you're a trade business or a contractor that works with project based work. head across to tradie.wikiforward/offer. Yes. I realized it sounds too good to be true. Trust me, it works. Do it now. I look forward to chatting to you soon. Ciao.